S19 E1: (1/5) [Amy] The Night That Everything Changed
50:12 Share

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Something Was Wrong early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

This episode is brought to you by Progressive. Most of you aren't just listening right now. You're driving, cleaning, and even exercising. But what if you could be saving money by switching to Progressive? Drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. And auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Multitask right now. Quote today at Progressive.com, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates.

National average 12-month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations.

Listening on Audible helps your imagination soar. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. Maybe you'll find inspiration in the incredible true story of black female mathematicians at NASA in Hidden Figures, or the

fantasy world of Throne of Glass. There's more to Imagine when you listen. As an Audible member, you get to choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash imagine or text imagine to 500-500. That's audible.com slash imagine or text imagine to 500-500.

Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences, as it discusses topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence, rape, and murder. Content warnings for each episode and confidential resources for survivors can be found in the episode notes. Some survivor names have been changed for anonymity purposes.

Pseudonyms are given to minors in these stories for their privacy and protection. Testimony shared by guests of the show is their own and does not necessarily reflect the views of myself, Broken Cycle Media, or Wondery. The podcast and any linked materials should not be construed as medical advice, nor is the information a substitute for professional medical expertise or treatment. Thank you so much for listening.

I'm Jake Deptula. I started a podcast called Strictly Stalking. I think it would help for people to probably hear how you and I met. So how I met Jake is through Amy B. Chesler, who works for Broken Cycle Media, Season 7 Survivor, host of What Came Next. She spoke so highly of you before we met. Amy, thank you so much for having me.

Amy B. Chesler and I met at a domestic violence charity event. She and I started talking and hit it off. We realized there was a kindred spirit when it comes to wanting to help people heal, dealing with trauma and connect people.

We realized we're like-minded in taking an ethical and moral approach to true crime content. She decided to introduce me to you, Tiffany. You and I connected and we realized we had similar sensibilities when it comes to wanting to help survivors and wanting to help victims of crime, but also using our platform in order to amplify that.

those cases. You have a responsibility to yourself and you also have a responsibility to the survivors that you feature. You have a much greater sensitivity than most people who are put in positions like that. It's a very rare thing, but I can see even how you interact with people in public and everything else like that. You do make people feel very, very comfortable. They want to talk to you, which is a gift.

So it was a natural fit. And even on a friendship level, we really hit it off in terms of our mutual love of Seinfeld, career enthusiasm, pretty much anything comedic in that way. It's becoming more and more clear to me that you and I are very similar people. Season 19 is a bit different than any other season. We are focusing on stalking specifically within this season, sharing multiple different survivors and their families' experiences within one season.

They all have very different outcomes and experiences within them. The thing that they all have in common is stalking. Jake works with the FBI. He works with stalking nonprofits. He actually is the real fucking deal.

which is not only rare in life and in the entertainment industry, but when it comes to men working in true crime podcasting, this is what he is passionate about. He is devoting significant amounts of his life to helping survivors survive.

Can you talk to us about what drew you to working specifically with stalking survivors and what has that work brought out in you? First of all, I want to thank you for that warm and respectful and welcoming introduction. I really appreciate you

the amazing, incredible work that you do and all the healing that you've done for so, so many people. And I thank you for that, Tiffany. I want to be very clear on this. Sometimes when you enter these projects or these situations, you don't go into it being the expert. Sometimes it just happens to

Initially, I didn't understand how needed a platform like this was until we started doing it, until we started getting the feedback from the survivors and the listeners and identifying with those particular aspects of the trauma that they were dealing with. Myself and my co-host, Jamie Beebe, speak to stalking survivors every week. We cover the impact of stalking using the platform to amplify their stories. We cover everything from how law enforcement responds to these particular cases, every

Everything is in the words of the survivors. Jamie and I are there to host and moderate. It's really opened up my eyes to the impact of stalking on survivors and how a lot of times they don't get the support that they need. And when we started talking to these survivors, you realize that not one story is the same, but the behavior of the stalkers tends to be the same. No matter if it's a stranger, whether it's cyber or former romantic, whatever that is,

There are so many different stories. What I've also learned is how survivors have now taken on the mantle of becoming their own advocates because there has not been the support and because there has not been things to help them, they end up becoming their own detectives.

You know this, Tiffany. These things can happen for a couple of weeks. Some of them can be decades. In terms of the stocking statistics, most of them are always evolving. There's an estimated 13.5 million people are stocked over a one-year period in the US. I feel...

it's got to be a lot, lot more than that. I think that is based upon people not reporting it. Oftentimes, stalking and domestic violence overlap. 85% of intimate partner femicides were preceded by stalking in the prior year. Stalking does play a role in that. You see cases where stalking was literally a

a red light of activity, of everyone was on notice, and then it turns into a homicide situation. Stalking is a crime under laws of the 50 states, but it really takes people to enforce those. Where we are with how long it takes bills to pass, it's a very difficult thing, but you do need people to enforce that

When it comes to the laws in the 50 states, you can be in a big city and think you're going to get support because they've got stronger police force and this and that, and you get nothing. You go to a small town and a sheriff will drive by your house to make sure everything's okay. So it really does vary state to state. It varies on condition. It varies on what type of stalking it is. Is it cyber stalking? Is it in person stalking?

Is it someone that you have previously been involved with? There are so many factors when it comes to this. Most of the time, stalkers are someone that someone knows. It can be a romantic interest. It could be someone you go to school with. It could be someone you work with. It could be a relative. There's no definite answer to a profile of a stalker, but only identifying stalking behavior

There are so many different ways that a stalker can present themselves. It becomes a very daunting task to identify who could be a stalker and at what point in their life they are capable of stalking. You have people that literally go through decades and decades and all of a sudden something snaps in them and they become obsessed with someone or they become preoccupied

predatory in a way that they never even imagined. It's hard to identify how someone could become a stalker because a lot of times it happens with a spurned romantic relationship. A breakup goes bad, they don't take it right, and they become the rejected stalker or the resentful stalker. And then you have delusional stalkers. They make up some sort of relationship in their head. Erotomania. Erotically, they're obsessed. It's

It's a psychological delusional disorder. They believe that the target or the object of their obsession is in love with them. The types of stalkers would be classified as the intimacy seeker, the rejected stalker, the resentful stalker. The problem is when you have conversations

content in the media that romanticizes stalking and trivializes it. And a lot of times publicity is achieved through celebrity stalking. Oftentimes when it comes to what we've seen in informally known as like revenge porn, image-based abuse, non-consensual pornography, anything being shared like that, it usually is done as a way to harass and then eventually stalk the target.

It can be a hacker. It can be somebody who got access to that. It can be somebody who paid another person to do that. It really is not as cut and dry.

We can manipulate content through just our phones now, through AI apps. Reputation damage can be done once something goes out. Once we put it out there, you don't go backwards. Sometimes people will hack into other people's phones and obviously all that's criminal and it's illegal, but it's hard to identify where those things are going to happen in

So I think on a psychological level, it is a very complex thing to analyze, but it's hard to analyze until someone steps forward and says, okay, here's the pattern of behavior that this person is using on me. The other problem is identifying that pattern of behavior. We've had so many people that until they start listening to these stories, they don't know that they've been stalked. And that's one of those really interesting things that when

when they listen, no matter at times how traumatic that can be, it stirs something up in them. It unblocks certain things. It really does take law enforcement to care about you and care about the situation. The issue is most law enforcement divisions are not equipped to deal with the cyber element of stalking. They are equipped to deal with in-person situations.

If you're filing restraining order and you have evidence that you're being cyberstalked, there isn't necessarily a way that someone can tie that cyberstalking back to the person who is your stalker, especially if they're using things that disguise their behavior. And especially if companies aren't willing to give that information out at that level, you're talking about subpoenas, you're talking about months, if not years to get to that point.

There was a time when people thought you do a cease and desist to a website and it's gone, but it's really not gone. Companies need to do a better job protecting their employees.

If they are in a place where security is an issue, they need to ramp up security. And the legislators need to address that on that level because it's very difficult to track behavior. Apps have made it so sophisticated that you can fake your phone number. You can fake an account. These aren't even tools that people are just using for stalking. They're just using to conceal themselves from being a sales call or something else.

It's hard for those laws to even catch up with that. One of the major issues when it comes to legislation with cyber-stalking laws is keeping up with the technology. As we know, how slow government

can often be when it comes to proposing these, when it comes to mostly advocates and survivors knocking on the doors of Congress. Trying to get these things passed is a very difficult thing. It's kismet that we are working on season 19 surrounding stalking. It's the 20-year anniversary of Stalking Awareness Month. Can you talk to us about Stalking Awareness Month and why you feel it's important?

Absolutely. I had the honor of meeting Debbie Riddle. Debbie Riddle is a advocate and sister of Peggy Klinke, who was stalked and murdered by her ex-boyfriend. All the signs were there of Peggy being in danger, Peggy being stalked, leading up to her murder. Yet when Debbie looked for laws, for resources, for

There weren't things in place that could protect her sister from having to meet this fate. She told anyone who would listen to her story, refused to remain silent, and called out all the failures in our criminal justice system, and then went on a mission to get the system fixed. She caught the attention of Tracy Baum, who's the director of the Stalking Resource Center, and they took...

Peggy's story to Washington, D.C., they testified at a congressional briefing, and then January was declared National Stalking Awareness Month. When you hear the passion, energy, and the tribute that she has for her sister, it's hard to listen to because you realize this is the worst ending of a stalking situation that can happen for someone. Then you listen to Debbie and you realize the honor and the tribute of this mission to make sure

Thank you so much for having me.

action. Debbie said that Peggy had this sparkle to her. And January 18th is going to be a day where we all want to wear something that adds a little bit of flair, a little bit of sparkle to capture who Peggy was and what she stood for. And I think that beyond that, some of the inroads that they've made through this month and this day and now 20 years is just, it's remarkable. I

I know that so many survivors that we speak with utilize Spark and they utilize this month as a way to get the awareness across. Spark is a wonderful organization, which stands for

Stalking Prevention Awareness and Resource Center. The website is stalkingawareness.org. They basically have all the information that you would need in terms of understanding stalking. Thank you so much. One of the things that we'll see within the survivors sharing their different stalking stories within this season is the impact that it has on their family members, their coworkers, and their friends.

In your experience in working with survivors, what does that often look like for those who love them? And how does the sort of ripple effect happen within stalking itself?

This is a very complicated question. So I'm going to start with having family that's very supportive and very proactive with wanting to get whatever the situation is resolved, wanting to address it. The second is where family friends question the victim and survivor based on their behavior and based on what they could or could not have done differently, which I find

extremely tragic and I find extremely destructive because it's hard enough to share these things. So many survivors don't want to share this because they don't want to feel re-victimized. A lot of times they suffer in silence. The third part is when the family friends are also being stalked by the person who is stalking the original victim. This becomes a very complicated thing when

where the original stalking victim feels guilty, feels shame for bringing this person into their life. I would say more often than not, families are supportive. They want to bring peace, bring help, do whatever they can. But a lot of survivors don't share this with their families.

And that's what stalkers prey on. Part of their scheme is knowing to silence the survivor and they gaslight them and they try to put them in a position where they don't want the victim to be believed.

And they accomplish it far too often. But you have to share these things. If something is happening, it's not only going to alleviate part of the trauma and what you're experiencing, but also it's a level of documentation. And it's a level of not having to carry that burden in your mind, body, and soul from a perpetrator, from someone who's damaging your life consistently.

What advice would you give to someone who is experiencing stalking? I would suggest if you feel like you're in any immediate threat, always call 911. Don't even hesitate about it. Don't second guess it. It's there for you. Let them make the determination for you. I would say go to...

Spark. They have a documentation journal that you can keep all these things together. They have a red exit button. So if you need to escape out of that site quickly, which is I know a very common thing when it comes to any domestic violence that someone in your life could be monitoring.

In terms of journaling, why it's important is that you need to get down a timeline. And that's the hardest part, I think, with stalking is that things don't happen consistently. Your instinct and your gut will tell you something doesn't feel right. Even if you don't have the tactical evidence of that, mark it down. Because we've heard so many cases where people say, I felt I was being monitored and they ended up being right.

Jump six months a year down the road. If your case goes to a certain level, you may be able to subpoena tech companies. You may be able to get the security camera footage from the location you were at. And guess what? You may find that your stalker was sitting in the parking lot.

I can't tell you how many times that's happened in terms of finding out that your instinct and your gut was telling you that someone was nearby or something was going on. Document it every single time. Write it out. Any point of concern, always document that. Law enforcement, the way that they work is they work off evidence. Even if you don't have evidence, keep a journal. The

Those things will help. That will definitely make a major impact with law enforcement and in courts if that ever goes to that point. When they do these things, gather up this particular evidence. And if this evidence impacts them, it impacts their business, we're seeing an uptick in civil suits against stalkers.

This is not something that you would enter lightly, but there are lawyers out there that deal specifically with image-based abuse, which is also known as revenge porn. There are lawyers out there that deal with cyber terrorism, cyber stalking, cyber harassment, especially if it impacts any level of your financial well-being. It's much more difficult to prove on the emotional level, unfortunately, but when it comes to financial...

We've had other creators and businesses lose money. They've taken their stalkers to court. So that's a whole nother realm of justice. There are things out there that will help you. It really does start with documentation and sharing your story, whoever you have available to listen. We're in a climate now where people are actually believing survivors. One story comes out and then another story comes out. Now everybody's got a platform. People have the ability to speak up.

but also they're using the software and using the technology that ultimately can also allow access to damaging content. Not to sound overwhelming with it, but I think the bottom line is that from a safety standpoint, try to protect as much as you can. Read the fine print on things you download. Don't geotag certain things. There's information brokers out there that sell your information. They put it on these free websites where you can look up addresses and phone numbers. A lot of those sites you can request information

to have that information pulled down. Things still leak out, but you don't have to make it easy for people to find you in that way. Being an ally yourself, how can others who are not experiencing stalking show up for stalking survivors? The first thing I say is just listen. Don't be judgmental. Listen. Let them share what they're going through. Don't discount anything they're saying because it is so difficult for someone to share what's going on. If

If you want to show up for people, just listen to them, especially if it's somebody close to you. If it's a family member, significant other, a friend, coworker, whatever it is, then from there, if they need help, if there's a situation and you're in a position to do it, let's say they're being stalked through different cyber aspects, emails, texts, Instagram, TikTok,

Offer services to monitor, if need be, their accounts so you can remove some of that trauma from them by still documenting it. Because you need evidence, you want to capture all the harassment. The problem is how traumatizing that can be. So if you're in a strong place and you can be there for your friend and you can do this,

and they would appreciate your support, offer that up. It's always going to help to have someone in your corner and just be nonjudgmental. Just be there, listen, help, and support. People ask me, do you get numb hearing these stories? And I said, no, I get more sensitive. I get more angry. I get more passionate about doing something in advocacy, doing a lot of behind the scenes stuff that I've been doing. I want to be able to help survivors in whatever way I can.

Thank you so much for the work that you do, for being willing to share your sage advice, for the advocacy that you do on a daily basis. This is a great way to enter the season, share advice and information that not only helps us grow in our empathy and support of survivors, but educates us ourselves. Thank you.

Thank you so, so much for being willing to help me kick off this very important season, bringing awareness to stalking and amplifying the voices of stalking survivors. Jake Deptula, Strictly Stalking, Ice-T, connoisseur of the universe. Thank you, my friend, for being here. Tiffany, it's a privilege to know you and call you a friend. I really applaud you for everything you're doing. None of this is easy, but the rewards and the gravity...

I really thank you tremendously for this opportunity.

Most Americans think they spend about $62 per month on subscriptions. But get this, the real number is closer to $300. That is literally thousands of dollars a year, half of which you've probably forgotten about. Thankfully, Rocket Money can find a bunch of subscriptions you've forgotten all about and then help you cancel the ones you don't want anymore. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions,

monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so that you can grow your savings. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features.

I'm Dan Taberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York. I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad. I'm like, stop f***ing around. She's like...

I can't. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast. It's like doubling and tripling, and it's all these girls. With a diagnosis the state tried to keep on the down low. Everybody thought I was holding something back. Well, you were holding something back intentionally. Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah.

Is this the largest mass hysteria since The Witches of Salem? Or is it something else entirely? A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery+.

Hello, I'm Amy's mom, Sherry. A little bit about me. I am a registered nurse. I also have done real estate for many years. I am loving and always have loved to be a mom. I'm very dedicated to my family, especially to my children that God has entrusted to me. I used to always say I grew up with wolves.

I realize now that is derogatory towards wolves because wolves, they do what they do because they have to survive. So it's either for hunger or survival. The human brain does it because they choose to do it. My background is a severely abusive family background. And so I think that I mentioned that because it's even more important to me when I met my husband, my college sweetheart. We've been married for 40 years this coming August. When you're married that long, you're going to have your ups and downs. Life's going to throw curveballs at you. He's

We served in the Air Force and we served in a border city. I did home care down there and there was just a lot of things that really grew us up down there because we saw a lot. We loved the people and we loved our community, but there was a lot. Life does that. It throws different things at you. We don't really like to be confrontational, but that's going to happen, right? Communication. I always go back to the fact of, I always remind myself, now hold it. Before we go into this, why did I marry him? Why?

why did I choose this man? Because when you really go back and you think all those years ago, why did I choose this person to live with for the rest of my life? It gets you more, everything more in perspective. It really does. It doesn't mean you ignore the issues at hand and you don't confront what needs to be confronted, but you do it in a more civil way. And that helps keep a marriage too, because you're not using any type of an abusive language or anything like that. And then keeping a sense of humor about it and also giving a cooling off period.

Honestly, never going to bed angry is really a huge thing. It's to get it worked out, but always go back to why you married him. Keep a good sense of humor about things and about yourself, not just your spouse, but yourself, really. That's the biggest thing. I've been dedicated to having a healthy, non-abusive family.

So for me to be sitting here speaking to the situation today just seems very surreal. These people exist and yet again because of how I was raised I know they do. It's just something that I didn't see happening in my own family.

I'm Amy's father, Kevin. I'm a computer professional. I work in the IT industry. I will tell you that the hardest part of parenting is letting go and allowing your children to go out in the world and make their own mistakes. When they're small, you're always there to catch them, to help avoid that tree that's in the middle of the road for them. But as they get older and they have more independence...

They branch out and that's just the way it is. And so you have to let them emerge into the world on their own. And as they go into the dating world and they move on to having relationships, growing as people into individuals, you've got to let them grow into the person that they are. Having two daughters, you eventually get a comfort with it. I was at that point where I had a comfort and Amy is very mature and intelligent. I trust her judgment in the dating world.

I have loved Amy all of her life the way that a tender, loving mother should because Amy, she's easy to love. She's always been so full of joy, so full of adventurous spirit, full of loving, caring, and compassion for others, especially the underdog. She is all about fairness, which I love about her, justice. She's so hardworking. She's always willing to go the extra mile for her work, for others, and for her God.

She has a wonderful sense of humor. She's able to laugh at herself. She's able to love deeply, which I think is a gift. It's never just about her. She's always volunteering. She cares about her parents. She really sincerely cares about us, even though we might be driving her crazy at times. She sincerely loves us. And her sister, her grandparent, she cares about the

amazing business owner. She will go to the end of the earth to do the right thing. There's just so many things welling up inside of me about how terrific she really is. She's very ethical and highly honest and integrity. She's brave and she's courageous as seen through her story. She really wants to help others when they can't find it within themselves. She sincerely wants to help because she knows the healing that will come out of that. She is not afraid to confront darkness and thank goodness,

for that. She's not fearful to be really authentic. We've seen her have to go through a lot during this cyber stalking process. And we understand better than we ever did before how misunderstood this crime is. To describe Amy, let me just put it this way. If I was given a blank slate of paper and asked to describe the ideal son or daughter,

I don't think I could come close to the way she turned out. She's a pretty amazing young woman. She has always been that way. Even when she was a small child, she was always very rule conscious. She worked hard and she's always been very self-confident. When she was just in elementary school, she would organize all the kids together and she would be the boss and she would get everybody organized and they would do car washes or lemonade stands. She always

loved being assertive, not afraid to take chances and reach for that golden ring. She's very motivated and very professional. She's also a very sensitive person. And I think sometimes that vulnerability can be a little difficult at times. I've seen that with her through this ordeal.

Amy, she's just got that really infectious, joyous personality, warm person, but she's also incredibly sharp and smart. She instills confidence in her personal and professional relationships because of the care that she brings. I think she's a really dynamic woman, an amazing business leader, and a very caring friend.

Amy is really prudent. She likes to have all of the information to make well-informed decisions. She definitely leans on expertise and counsel in any situation to listen and understand.

But then I think she doesn't waffle. She's very direct with her decision making. She's very friendly to interact with on a professional way too. Very understanding, committed to the work at hand. So she doesn't miss deadlines.

Amy is one of the steadiest, strongest people I know. She has a very bright personality, but she's also very consistent and very level-headed. She is a joy to be around. She is a rock in our company for our younger folks. She's a great mentor. She believes a lot in giving back to the community and makes great efforts to do that. She has a great sense of humor.

She's a joy to be around. She's very thoughtful about other people and the impact that she's making with what we do in the business and within the community. She talks a lot about her family. She gets together with them often. I know she's very close to her sister and her mom and dad. Her mom helps out regularly with her puppy and comes and watches it, I think weekly, so that Amy has the flexibility to work late and often difficult hours. So she is very close with her family.

Amy is a person who consistently sees the best in others and always goes the extra mile to ensure others around her feel loved and supported.

She's magnetic and you want to spend time with her. Amy's also a person who is truly accelerated in everything that she puts her mind to and has poured her entire life into the business that she has created, both for herself individually as well as for our company. Amy has a delicate ability to gain trust from others and that's through vulnerability. She's truly special in how she can really

gain trust from others. And it's her ability to be vulnerable and authentic that she can build really long lasting relationships. Amy's relationship with her parents is one of the sweetest. Her mother barely breaks five feet tall, but has so much feist and energy and absolutely loves her daughter.

The amount of advocacy that they have shared for Amy and being there right alongside her has just been so wonderful to watch. Not only does Amy feel supported by her team, but she feels unconditional support by her parents. And they are just truly wonderful people.

Hi, I'm Amy's sister. I would describe her as one of the most ambitious, hardworking, genuinely generous people in the entire world. She's really special in that she really connects with people and wants to do good in this world and has worked very hard to get where she is in this world. And I just respect her so much for that. As my older sister, those qualities have shown through even since we were young. We're two years apart.

She's always very aware of taking care of me and everybody around her. And I just always have valued that about her. She's just such a good person and means well in this world. So she's been a great example for me as an older sister. Since we were little, and even now, I feel like I can depend on her. She's much more quick-witted than I am.

I've always been a little bit more quiet and she can just navigate social situations in a way that's just so graceful. It's just fun to watch her interact with the world that way. I would say we've always been close. My parents moved to a couple of different states that weren't their home states and we landed in a place where we didn't have a lot of

extended family around us. So us four have always just been there for each other and helped each other out. We've always been a team. We've just kind of weathered things together. And obviously it's not perfect. I don't think any family's ever perfect, but I think we just try our best. I know now that I'm older, how rare that is. And I value it so much moving through life more and more. I am super, super appreciative and grateful for it.

Hi, I'm Amy. I am from Denver, Colorado. I grew up in a very average suburban home with a family who was very loving and supportive and caring. I would say just your average American family, middle class.

I really grew up striving to make my parents happy, which I think has carried into my adult years. My parents are Midwesterners, born and raised, and very much raised my sister and I with those roots. Humble, genuine, authentic people who care a lot about others and want to do their part to make the world a better place. My faith was a big part of my childhood.

mainly led by my mom. Christmas is my mom's favorite holiday and one that has become very important to my family. My parents are very hardworking. They both put themselves through college. They had very little support. I saw them work very hard to support my sister and I, oftentimes working overtime

two jobs. My dad worked two jobs, I remember very vividly, to pay for a trip to Disney World for my family. You know, it's something that stuck with me. I know how hard they had to work to provide for us and I never felt like I was lacking growing up by any means, but I do know that my parents worked very hard to provide the life that we had. I have a younger sister. She's a high school teacher. She's a couple years younger than me, one of my best friends and huge supporter.

She and I are very close, grew up very close. She was very much more of a tomboy and I was very much the girly girl. We grew up next to an open field, so we were always doing something barefoot outside in the summers, drumming up trouble with our neighbors in the cul-de-sac and having a blast doing it. I'm very lucky to have the family that I do. As I'm saying that, thinking of how supportive they've been with this situation, it's just almost tears of happiness.

She struck him with her motor vehicle. She had been under the influence, and then she left him there. In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask.

Was it a crime of passion? If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling. This was clearly an intentional act. And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia. Or a corrupt police cover-up. If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover-up to prevent one of their own from going down. Everyone had an opinion.

And after the 10-week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision. To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. Law and Crime presents the most in-depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen. You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught. I'm Sachi Cole. And I'm Sarah Hagee. And we're the host of Scamfluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims, and what's left once the facade falls away.

We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit filed by Larry King, and no real product to push. He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Giudice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame. Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad-free right now on Wondery+.

In 2016, I was 31. I was well into my career with a large corporate company at the time. I think we all go through a little something when we turn 30. And so at that point, I really felt like I'm officially an adult and people now respect me.

At 31, I was working a lot. I had just gotten out of a brief relationship with somebody who blindsided me and breaking up with me. So I think I was pretty vulnerable at the time. Dating sites back then were different than they are now. I had heard that the guy I was dating was on Plenty of Fish and I had not heard of this dating site in particular. So I joined. And that is where I met Morrison, who at the time I knew as Eric.

He described himself as a 33-year-old male, non-religious, athletic. He had told me he was in Denver. He had a PhD in aviation analytics and engineering, which isn't surprising because Denver has a big presence of aerospace, both government and private sector. It didn't

It didn't seem too outlandish. He had brown eyes. His photos had his dog in them, his golden retriever on a boat, on a beach. He had a professional photo on his profile, along with a photo next to him standing next to a plane. Just seemed like a down-to-earth, good-looking, genuine, good-hearted guy. His About Me, I think it's worth reading it directly to you because I think it depicts who I thought I was talking to.

So he said,

Upon graduating from tech, I served as a commissioned officer in the US Air Force. I received my honorable discharge to enter the private sector several years ago and have since completed my PhD in engineering. While I miss flying, I'm blessed to work in a job in the aviation industry, which I absolutely love. I moved to Denver earlier this year. And while I really enjoy living here, I must admit that I haven't really been able to make very many friends. In fact, most of the people I know are the people with whom I work.

I like going out with friends to grab dinner and drinks or doing anything outdoors, like going to the beach or going skiing. I've always been a fairly active, adventurous guy who embraces new experiences. I realize that any major city is saturated with young, single guys, most of whom appear to be on Plenty of Fish, lol. So I just want to say that I'm a very genuine guy looking to meet and actually get to know the right person. I'd like to meet an intelligent, strong-willed woman who loves to travel, go out and have fun.

It would also be pretty damn cool if she shared my passion for flying, but that's probably asking for too much with a smiley face. Then below he says, and don't send me just a high message. I'm looking for something really genuine. My

My dad has his private pilot's license. He was in the Air Force. There were some foundational connections that resonated with me. And I thought we would hit it off just based on some familial and common interests and experiences. One of the things that probably resonated with me is who he wanted to meet is exactly who I was. He wanted to meet an intelligent, strong-willed woman who loves to travel, go out and have fun. That's me. So we connected. And

fairly quickly, he started to build trust with me. We had good conversation, wholesome. I think that's the word that best describes who I believed I was talking to at the time. I do view myself then and now as intelligent. I don't think I'm overly innocent. I know I was vulnerable at the time when I met him. And I think that did play into our interactions and my openness to engaging with him in the

But I know people who have been catfishing. I was aware of all of that. So I went into this eyes wide open and yet I still ended up meeting somebody who wasn't who they said they were. I keep trying to think of what the initial conversation was. We talked a lot about his dog and we connected.

Although I have a lot of this documented now, I don't have those conversations. But I can tell you, I've gone over and over again, how did he build trust so quickly with me to manipulate the situation and manipulate me over just a matter of weeks? The way he did that is he said, on these apps, I like to ask questions.

three questions that are general getting to know you questions and three dating type of questions, anything kind of in the romantic dating sex realm of things. And I thought, oh, that's creative. No one's engaged with me like that on any other site or app at this point. So it was intriguing to me. And he pulled me in saying, I'll ask you three questions and you ask me three questions. That's what we started doing.

He's asking me questions, getting to know me. I'm a very open, vulnerable person in general. I have nothing to hide. I'm comfortable in my skin and who I am. And so I was very open in responding to questions he asked me. And to be honest, I don't know specifically what some of the general questions were. I'm sure it was very basic responses.

Where are you from? What do you like to do? All those sorts of things. I remember there were a few that he did ask at one point that I was kind of like, that's an odd hobby or that's an interesting response. One of his second languages was German, he said.

I didn't think anything of it. I mean, he's got his doctorate. He's had a lot of schooling and he's been in the U.S. Air Force. To me, it wasn't a red flag. But at one point he said he was a big history buff and he collected memorabilia of the German Nazi era. I didn't think it was anything specifically Nazi related. But there was one question that will continue to haunt me for years later. He asked me about a dating experience, a one night stand I had, and I told him it

It was with a bartender that I met at a restaurant. I was out celebrating my birthday with my best friend and we hit it off with the bartender at the restaurant we were at. And we had a one night stand and that's it. But he dug deeper. He asked very specific details like what was I wearing? He wanted the play by play of what happened in that one night stand.

which it was very bland. It was a one night stand. So there's a very brief connection that was had. He was definitely pulling information from me and asking for more details and specifics. He obviously was taking notes on what I was saying. But

At the time, we were messaging on the Plenty of Fish site, and he had built up enough trust with me that he started asking for innocent pictures of like, well, send me a picture of what you're doing right now. But he wanted to do it over email. I don't know why I didn't question it at the time. I never gave him my phone number. I did give him my email. The trust was built. The sexual tension was built. We never met in person.

She would tell me something, I'd just be like, oh, this guy, come on. Too good to be true. But I don't want to jump to conclusions about people. And I love my sister and I wanted to support her. Amy told me about him and described some stuff about him, what he did. First impressions just from the surface early on seemed pretty outstanding, obviously. It's painted that way.

Early on, she was pretty excited about him and I didn't know much outside of that. She told me a few things about him that kind of left me questioning certain things. Now, obviously, lesson in learning how to listen to your body and yourself when these kinds of things happen. They hadn't met in person. That was something that seemed interesting to me. If I remember right, she had tried to set up a meetup and it always seemed to fall through or something like he couldn't. So that was a little bit of a red flag to me. I think she had mentioned something about how he

he said he was German descent and he had German shepherd dogs. And I was like, that's fine. We are also of German descent in our family. But it was just sort of how he approached that conversation with her. I didn't want to jump to conclusions, but it got to me for some reason.

Okay, right away my antennas went up. But you know the mother-daughter relationship, it can be fragile sometimes. We have a great relationship, we always have, but there's just times when you know that, "Okay, how am I going to communicate this gently to my daughter that I think this is too good to be true?" Being raised with abuse and then being in our in doing some psych nursing, things like that, you do come out of that with a sixth sense and you're aware of the warning signs.

I'm so grateful that Amy came to tell us that she had met this person online. We were all there in our kitchen and she was showing all of us his page. We were talking about it and everything. She went on about him and I remember thinking,

Okay, he's in his early 30s. He has this degree, this master's, this, this, and this. He's got a picture of himself with a dog. And my husband is over there saying, oh, this is great. It sounds great. I'm thinking I'm the only one that's thinking this doesn't sound right. Something's off. And that's the first time I realized something was wrong with this picture. I said quietly to her, Amy, it sounds too good to be true. And she's, oh, mom, he's older.

And I want to be very clear, I felt guilty for saying that, but I knew I had to say it. There was just something in me that was relentless, that I recognized from my childhood. I just felt like it just was too good to be true. And unfortunately, it was.

We had been talking for two, two and a half weeks, even though it was 2016 in the dating app and dating site world that was like light years ago and how people interacted. We started exchanging innocent photos. Progressively, he asked for more personal and explicit sort of photos. I didn't put my face in them. He wanted a photo of my boobs or a photo of my butt or of my legs. And he sent me photos as well.

At one point, he started asking for photos that seemed odd. Like, why would he want that? Like a picture of my birth control or a picture of my couch. This is strange. I said, no, I'm not comfortable sending you that. And when I told him no, something in him changed. He snapped. He said, look at my profile on Plenty of Fish. When I went to his profile, he posted most of the explicit photos that he had of me with a description of...

who I was, first name, last name, my email address, my home address, and a ton of content about the one night stand that he asked for very detailed information about. His content became very racist. I was blown away. In that moment, my heart sank and I had this oh shit moment of, I don't know who the hell I've been talking to, but it sure is not this guy, Eric. I

I saw that and my heart sank. I literally went blank. There was no tears. There was no emotion. I immediately just froze. It was complete freeze mode. I did screenshot as much as I could in the moment. Looking back on that, thank God I did. I asked him to take everything down. He said, oh, no, I am not. I have them all saved. Every single one. Did you read the captions? Pretty accurate. A, LOL, read them, whore.

LOL. So, your cum-guzzling, white trash, whore, fuck-buddy, slave ass will send Hugo and all of your other beloved worthless douchebag, pussy hound, fuck-buddy slaves any picture. How many have you sent? A whore, 500, a thousand, yet you won't send me one? LOL. Well, this is my response. Fuck you. LOL. This is just the beginning, whore. You can count on that. Winky face. Oh, and, um, Amy...

Thanks so much for sharing your full name and your cell number with me. Seriously, I could have never gotten the rest of your info without it. LOL, winky face. Fuck you, fuck buddy slave with a ton of exclamation marks. You're so dumb. That's the message I got.

As if I was just giving it to him and he didn't pull it out of me through his manipulations and the trust that he built. You can't see this in the messages that I was reading, but the way the writing is, some of it's capitalized. There's a lot of asterisk. It's blocking out certain letters of words that probably can't use on that app. It looks very cryptic.

Not knowing what to do, the first thing I did was call my parents. Let me tell you, that is a call you never want to have to make, especially with parents who expect a lot of you and support you in the way that they have all of your life. To call them and tell them exactly what just happened is...

My parents, my sister included, they're my first call when it's something happy, sad, frightening. So when this stuff's going down, as much as I don't want to be calling them, they're my first call because I need to process it. I'm trying to figure out and rationalize what's happening and make sure I'm dealing with it in the right ways. It's one of the hardest calls I ever had to make. I remember it very well. We were in bed at night. It was about 11 o'clock. We were asleep. The phone rang.

and it was Amy on the other end, she was in tears. And anytime your children call you in tears, your first reaction is to panic and to fear that there's something significantly wrong. She shared with us in her terms, she had made a mistake and she had exchanged communication with this person online and that he had turned out to be not what he had presented himself as. She had never met him in person.

She'd only exchanged communications through electronic means. She really didn't even know who she was dealing with, but he had turned and he was making threats. I remember it vividly because I loaded my Glock 19, drove to her place and set up in case this person was going to try to harm her or cause any other problems. I spent the night at Amy's house. She was definitely scared to death. And that was the first of many nights I spent at Amy's place.

I definitely remember when things turned because I actually was asleep the night that everything changed for Amy with this experience. I had my ringer on my phone turned off. I had forgotten to turn it back on after work. She had called me once things took a turn and I didn't hear my phone, so I didn't wake up and answer. The next day I woke up and that's when I found out about everything that had happened the night before.

My stomach just sank. It had been a whole debacle that night and the gravity of it and the seriousness of it was really palpable. I felt bad that I was asleep for it. More than anything, it was just a really deep concern for my sister. Next time on Something Was Wrong. In the back of my mind, I start thinking, is it somebody who knows me and is trying to taunt me?

My sister got some new neighbors at one point, and her train of thought was that it was this person who was stalking her. I realized that I was so much in defense mode when everything reignited and was full-on escalating behavior that I didn't document much. I was playing whack-a-mole is the best analogy I can provide. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, stay safe, friends.

Something Was Wrong is a Broken Cycle Media production created and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese. If you'd like to support the show further, you can share episodes with your loved ones, leave a positive review, or follow Something Was Wrong on Instagram at SomethingWasWrongPodcast. Our theme song was composed by Glad Rags. Check out their album, Wonder Under. Thank you so much.

If you like Something Was Wrong, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.