Jamestown | Chief Opechancanough | 5
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Wondery Plus subscribers can binge new seasons of American History Tellers early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Imagine it's December 1621 in the Powhatan town of Memond, Virginia.

You're an Anglican minister and member of the Colonial Governor's Council. And ever since you arrived in Virginia two years ago, you've been driven by a single purpose. Your desire to convert the local Indian people to Christianity. And none more so than Opie Kankano, the great warrior and leader of the Powhatan people. Right now, you're walking along the Pamunkey River with him, working up the courage to broach a delicate subject.

You glance at Opechancanough, and he nods for you to continue. I must confess, there is a matter weighing heavily on my heart. The chief of the Acomac sent a message to our governor. He accused you of asking him for his stores of water hemlock. It's a highly lethal plant. He said you planned to use it to poison us. He stops walking and turns to face you, his gaze sharp and penetrating. He is wrong. I have no wish to destroy your people.

You and I are friends. I would like to think so. But this accusation has spread panic in the colony. The governor has placed everyone on guard for a potential attack. You truly deny any involvement? Yes. All I want is to continue the peace we've enjoyed these past few years. You struggle to read him, to know if he speaks the truth. You nod cautiously. I wish the same.

My people have wronged the Powhatan many times. Perhaps we could return to our previous conversations about sending some of your people to be educated in the ways of the English. We could teach some of your boys to read, write, and become Christians. Opie Kankano takes a step closer to you. He's a few inches taller than you, and you can't help but feel cowed by his imposing presence. Perhaps you could teach me about your god. You blink, certain you've misheard. You wish to...

"'It is possible that our own religion is not the right way. We've had two dry years in a row. Our crops are dying. I think perhaps your God is angry with us. Perhaps he loves your people more than ours.' "'Do you speak sincerely?' "'Yes. I have long wondered if there is truth in what you preach. Will you instruct me in the ways of your God?' Your heart pounds with confusion and surprise. "'Nothing would please me more.'

I will gladly teach you. Opie Kankano nods and resumes walking. You join him, relief washing over you. For years, you've worked to spread the gospel in this heathen land, and now there's the chance that the natives will at last embrace Christianity. You feel a new surge of hope that the colony might finally live in peace and harmony with the Powhatan people, and that your future here will be more prosperous than ever before.

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In late 1621, the Powhatan leader, Opie Kankano, persuaded a zealous English minister named George Thorpe that he was interested in converting to Christianity. Thorpe was thrilled. He firmly believed that the long-term peace and prosperity of the colony would depend on wide-scale Indian conversion.

But in truth, Opie Kankano was lulling the colonists into a false sense of security. In March 1622, years of festering resentment came to a head when Opie Kankano launched a sweeping attack against English settlements up and down the James River. 347 settlers were brutally killed. George Thorpe was among them.

To discuss Opie Kankano's life and legacy, I'm joined by Dr. James Horn, president of the Jamestown Rediscovery Foundation and author of several books, including A Brave and Cunning Prince, The Great Chief Opie Kankano, and The War for America.

Jim Horn, welcome to American History Tellers. Oh, it's great to be here. Thank you. Let's step back from 1607 and Jamestown and talk about a character that shows up a little bit in our story, Chief Powhatan's brother, Opie Kankano. He's the subject of your 2021 book, A Brave and Cunning Prince.

And he did everything he could to wipe out the English settlers in Jamestown and the surrounding areas. He has an intriguing backstory, too, one that was shaped by his early interactions with the Spanish. Why don't we start there? How did their paths first cross?

Well, he was taken from the Chesapeake Bay in 1561 by a group of Spanish mariners. The Spanish were trying to settle North America as they had the Caribbean, Middle and South America.

They were blown off course in a hurricane or great storm and found themselves in the Chesapeake Bay. And taking the opportunity to explore a bit further into the bay, they went up one of the great rivers and encountered a group of Indians, including two young men, probably about 14 or 15 years old.

The two boys boarded the ship, the caravel that the Spanish were using to explore the rivers.

And then we're taken back to Spain. So that was the first encounter that the Spanish had with this young Indian in the summer of 1561. And so he was taken back to Spain. And how long did he live there? And how did he return? He lived there for the best part of six to eight months. Initially, he went to Portugal to a southern port called Lagos.

And then from there went to Seville and from there went up to Madrid to be introduced to King Philip II of Spain. This was in the fall of 1561. And by the spring of 1562, the king had released him to go back to America, to his homeland, so that he could begin the holy work of converting his own people to Catholicism.

When he was in Lagos, he had the opportunity to see a Portuguese city for the first time. And one of the central buildings in Lagos was a slave market. Portugal was already very heavily involved in the slave trade, both to Europe and eventually to the Americas. This was his first encounter with seeing a slave market and enslaved Africans. And that, I think, did make an impression on this young man.

Now, returning to North America to spread Catholicism seems to be at odds with the Obi-Kankana we know from our story. How did he convince the Spanish authorities, the Spanish king, that this was something he truly believed in? I believe he was a very astute young man, incredibly intelligent. I think he learned Spanish pretty quickly. I think he was very impressive in both his person and the way he spoke.

communicated to the court. And we've got to remember here, he's not just communicating with one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful sovereign monarch in the world, Philip II. He's also meeting high church officials, important merchants and business people in Madrid. So being at court gave him a real opportunity to impress himself upon them and impress them

with how quick he was to pick up Spanish ways, including the Catholic religion. I think Opikankana realized that it was critically important for him to play the role of a convert to Christianity and Catholicism.

I would say that, and I put this rather bluntly, as a con man, Pachacaneo is unsurpassed. He pulls the wool over the eyes of all these great men, and he convinces Europeans along the way of his sincerity so that he can fulfill his plans to return to his own people eventually. And indeed, he actually took a Spanish name, too. We're actually dealing with several names here.

The Indian youth's name was Pachacaneo. He's later known to the Spanish as Don Luis and later by the English as Opicancana. There is one record in the Spanish archives that gives his Indian name, Pachacaneo. But then he was renamed, or eventually he was baptized, Don Luis de la Velasco.

That was a great honor because the viceroy of New Spain, i.e. Mexico, his name was Don Luis de Velasco. So what this meant was that Pachacaneo Don Luis was the godson of the viceroy of Mexico. I don't know of any other Indian from this period, Native American of this period, that was given an honor like that. And just goes to show how impressive he was at the Spanish court.

and how interested Philip II was in him in terms of being a missionary to take the Holy Word to his own people. But even though Obi-Kankana was successful in convincing the Spanish king to let him return to the Americas, he didn't return to the Chesapeake Bay area quite so quickly. He had to spend some years in Mexico City. How did his travels there influence him?

He spent four years in Mexico City, and we have to bear in mind that Mexico City at this point in the early 1560s, this is only about 40 years after the conquest of the Aztec Empire and the city that was known to the Aztecs or Mexico as Tenochtitlan.

It was a great city on a lake. It had great pyramids before the Spanish demolished them and started building their own monumental structures. The creation of Mexico City, a Spanish conquered city, was based on the rubble of those older buildings that the Aztecs had constructed.

And Don Luis actually is living quite close to the central plaza of the city where those former Aztec pyramids had existed. If ever there was a symbol for him of what European conquest looked like, it must have been when he was touring the city and seeing how all the aspects of Indian life were being erased and replaced by Spanish buildings and monuments.

He must have spoken to Indian peoples still living in the city, acting as servants or providing services for the Spanish. And he must have heard about the stories of the Spanish conquest and what had befallen them. That was a lesson he never forgot for the rest of his life.

So Opie Kankano returns to the Chesapeake Bay, nominally, I guess, to spread the word of the Lord with a contingent of Jesuits. How did the first mission go? Yeah, he returns in the summer of 1570. So it's a small expedition. There's about a dozen Jesuits involved and

No soldiers were taken along. The Jesuit father was worried that the presence of soldiers would give the wrong impression to local peoples in the Chesapeake. Within a few weeks of arriving, Don Louis takes off to go back to his home village, saying he would be back shortly, but he didn't return.

The Jesuits go through a harrowing winter. They're starving. The local people's cut off all support. And when Don Luis, who had now re-adopted his own name, Paca Caneo, returns, dressed in traditional Powhatan clothing and leading a war party, probably at least a dozen warriors arrive.

They would have been carrying war bows, and Pachacaneo was also carrying a hatchet that he'd received from the Jesuits earlier to help them build their mission. He used that to kill the principal, Father Segura,

And then the others were either dispatched in a similar way with Pachacaneo using that hatchet and the bowmen, the other warriors shooting survivors trying to flee the building with their arrows. It was a brutal and complete destruction of the mission. There was one survivor.

a boy called Alonso who was a novice or altar boy. And it was he who eventually was rescued by a Spanish expedition of the following year, 1572. They picked him up and learned about what had happened and then exacted revenge upon Indians as best they could. Trying to find Pachacaneo Don Luis and failing to do so, they left the Chesapeake Bay and never returned.

So after the killing of the Jesuits in the Chesapeake Bay in 1571, apparently we don't hear about Opie Cancano again until 1607, 36 years later. What was his position in the Powhatan chiefdom at that time when the English arrived? I think he occupied a very powerful position. I think he was a key advisor to the great chief whose name was Powhatan. His personal name was a little bit different, Wahasanakok, but

This is a paramount chiefdom overseeing maybe 30 tribes across the entire tidewater of Virginia.

And I think he occupied, Opecanganao occupied the crucial position of war chief, which meant that he was responsible for all external relations, whereas Powhatan was more concerned with ruling the various tribes within this paramount chiefdom. Don Luis, Pachacaneo, Opecanganao couldn't have known whether the Spanish were going to return. All the signs would have been, from his experience, they would have.

So building this massive chieftain was absolutely imperative to safeguard his people, the Powhatans, from further invasion by the Spanish. He couldn't have foreseen that the Spanish effort would fall apart in North America, apart from one settlement. And he couldn't have foreseen, of course, that the English would be the threat by the early 17th century. American History Tellers is sponsored by Hills Pet Nutrition.

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So you've developed a theory that in the 30 years we don't hear much about Opikankino, that it was his experience with the Spanish that led him perhaps to influence the creation of this large paramount chiefdom. And this is a defensive maneuver. So they're on a war footing, preparing for the return of the white man. What does this mean for the English when they walk into this setting in 1607?

When the English arrived, they encountered one of the most powerful Indian chiefdoms along the entire Mid-Atlantic. It takes them at least a couple of years to figure that out.

And of course, they've got no idea about the warrior strength of this chiefdom. And they couldn't possibly have known that one of the principals here, Hopi Kankano, as the English called him, would have had previous experience of European warfare and European tactics.

This was a paramount chiefdom that had emerged in the last 30 years of the 16th century and stretched all the way from south of the James River, the Powhatan River, all the way up to the Potomac. It embraced at least 30, 32, maybe even three dozen tribes and probably had something like 13,000 to 15,000 inhabitants previously.

which maybe doesn't sound a lot, certainly to Europeans used to great cities and towns and so on wouldn't have seemed a lot of people. But in terms of an Indian chiefdom, that is a large population.

Powhatan is a chief of chiefs, but he does wield formidable military strength, and that's based on an elite corps of warriors, maybe 3,000 or 4,000. So not long after the English arrived in December of 1607, we have a meeting of two principal characters. Opie Kankano has a run-in with Captain John Smith while he was out looking for food.

I would love for you to tell us as best you can what happened during this initial encounter through Opie Kankano's eyes. Well, Opie Kankano and Powhatan had been keeping a close eye on the English settlement at Paspehe. The English called it Jamestown. The Indian chiefs called it Paspehe for the very good reason the English had settled on a hunting ground of the Paspehe people.

They had seen and knew about the decline in the English population there. Originally, 104 men and boys arrived in May of 1607. By early December, the number was down to about 38 as a consequence of starvation, of disease principally, I think, and to some degree of Indian attacks.

It was during this time that Captain John Smith goes on a number of missions to get food by trade or by force from local Indian peoples. And one of those peoples he dealt with was a powerful tribe called the Chickahominis based along the river of the same name.

So he sets off in early December of 1607 in freezing cold weather with two companions and an Indian guide to find out what he could about the Chickahominy and how far it went into the interior. Opie Kankano may have had spies out to keep an eye on Smith's progress up the Chickahominy, and he ultimately decides to capture Smith

The two companions of Smith's, the English, are killed by Opikankano's warriors. And Smith finds himself confronted by two or three hundred warriors led by Opikankano. And Smith tells this story of how he attempted to defend himself with his pistol, shooting a couple of the warriors before falling back into a stream and being dragged out of this camp.

I think he describes it as the icy ooze of this swamp, surrounded by angry warriors who had not taken kindly to the killing of a couple of their number. He is brought in front of Opikankano and does what I suppose anyone in his situation would do. He tries to keep talking, and he takes out of his pocket a compass and starts talking in English,

about what the compass represents. Now, I don't think Opikankano had any intention of killing Smith. They tied him to a tree and were going to shoot him full of arrows, but Opikankano stops that and takes him back to his hunting camp.

And it's there that a remarkable conversation takes place between Opie Kankano and Smith, because Opie Kankano is trying to find out much more about the English, their capabilities, and what might be coming in the future. And Smith, of course, for his part, is trying to find out as much as he can about the Powhatan chiefdom, and also, of course, trying to stay alive. Why this interest in saving Smith for a conversation? Why not just kill him like the others?

This period between May of 1607 through to the spring of 1609 is quite fascinating because both sides are sounding out the other. There's this very cagey approach on both sides to see what can be gained and trying to avoid any loss. So we often think about Europeans in the Americas in this period, particularly 16th and 17th centuries,

as the invaders, and that's what they were, invading Indian lands. But in this case, what Powhatan is doing is trying to take over the English settlement. The English had copper, and to the Powhatans, copper was tantamount to the European obsession with gold.

With copper, you could buy auxiliary warriors. You could extend your influence over peoples. You could buy their loyalty to you with copper. We know this archaeologically. We found English copper at Indian sites around Jamestown. But one of the things that I've put forward in a couple of my books is to emphasize the importance of firearms.

If the Powhatans could gain access to a flow of firearms, they could easily overcome any other Indian people within the greater region of the Chesapeake. So firearms would open up enormous opportunities for further territorial expansion of the Powhatan chiefdom. And that's what Powhatan was trying to gauge.

turn the English into a Powhatan tribe with Captain John Smith as the chief of that tribe, and get access to this flow of English trade goods, principally firearms and steel weapons. You're describing a situation, you used the word cagey, and I can imagine that all of these interactions are really done with cards held close to chest, because information is critical here.

Any new information, any letting on that you know more than you do, would be an advantage in this, what's becoming a very deadly chess game. You've explained kind of Opie Kankano's endgame for this, to try and expand his power and influence in the region. But how well informed were the Powhatan about the English motives and aspirations in the area?

I think they were quite well informed. And this is something that's not always appreciated is just how extensive Indian intelligence networks were, information networks were. Peoples of the Chesapeake region traded all the way down to Georgia, certainly through the Carolinas. They knew about the Spanish. They might not have had the experience of Pachacaneo Opecancano directly, but they knew about those activities.

They had earlier in the 16th century encountered French-English mariners who were trading or fishing to the north. So I think Indian peoples had learned a great deal about Europeans and, as far as the Powhatans were concerned, knew something about the English, but couldn't initially say when the English first turned up in 1607,

what exactly English intentions were. Now, in that first meeting between Smith and Opikankano,

Opie Kankano asks Smith outright, are there any further ships that will be coming? And of course, Smith, he knows full well that the English will be sending further ships, but he doesn't want to give the game away. So to illustrate this suspicion of the English, you have an excerpt from John Smith's own writings where he recounts an exchange he had with Powhatan, the Paramount chief. Could you read that for us? Yeah.

Yeah, certainly. Here's just a brief excerpt from that discussion. Yet, Captain Smith, some doubt I have of your coming hither, that makes me not so kindly seek to relieve you as I would. For many do inform me your coming is not for trade, but to invade my people and possess my country, who dare not come to bring you corn, seeing you thus armed with your men.

"To clear us of this fear, leave aboard your weapons, for here they are needless, we being all friends, and forever Powhatans." Where does this come from? Well, this comes from one of the conversations, there were several others between Smith and Powhatan, and between Smith and Opikankano. It's taking place towards the end of 1608.

And I think it's beginning to become clearer to Powhatan and to Opikankano that they really can't put up with the English presence for much longer at Jamestown. So for all the effort to try to convince Powhatan and Opikankano that they had nothing to fear from the English by the end of 1608, and certainly by the beginning of 1609, the gloves are coming off.

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Fast forwarding a few years, though, we find ourselves in a period of peace. And as we detailed in our series, there were about five years after Pocahontas, who was held captive in Jamestown, married tobacco planter John Rolfe in 1614. So between then and 1622, there was this period of detente. But you say Opie Kankano was, in fact, instead, lulling the English into what you call a sense of complacency. How did he do that and why?

He approached the English in a very friendly fashion. Everything that he spoke about to the English was designed to give them confidence that he meant them no harm and that they could indeed subsist together, they could live together in a harmonious relationship, as symbolized by the marriage of one of Powhatan's favorite daughters, Pocahontas, Matoaka, to

John Rolfe. So this deception by Opikankano was really facilitated by an English desire to believe it. I mean, that might be obvious, but the English really did want to believe the war was over. The territory was that they'd gained from the Powhatans along the James River was secure.

They were developing tobacco husbandry, and tobacco was enormously profitable at this time. John Rolfe was involved in the development of a form of tobacco that was palatable to the English. And everything seemed to be going very, very well. It was what the Virginia Company of London had always hoped for, that the two peoples, though very different, could live together in peace and harmony going forward.

So Opie Cancano is playing a long game here. Five years of peace to ready his warriors for what will be the ultimate battle. And by 1622, he was ready to launch that devastating attack on Jamestown. What kind of military resources were at his command? What challenges did he face from the English?

Well, they knew enough about English military capability from the First War. The First War had taken place between 1609 and 1614. A series of attacks and counter-attacks. Extreme violence was used on both sides, but probably more so on the English side, using their firearms and ships' cannons. The English could freely move up and down the James River,

bringing terror and destruction to Indian villages along the way. So Powhatan and subsequently Opikankano knew a good deal about the capability of the English, and that would have a direct influence on the strategy that Opikankano adopts when he launches his great attack in 1622. The most important thing that he learnt was that he could not be successful in

by throwing his warriors against fortified positions. That, in other words, he had to get inside the palisade rather than trying to attack from without. And with one exception, that's how things played out in the great attack of March 22nd, 1622. This great attack was obviously a coordinated operation, done over an area of about 100 miles, and without, of course, any modern communications. How did it unfold?

It unfolds the night before, March 21st, with Indian warriors positioning themselves close to those plantations that they'd probably visited for a number of years, trading with settlers.

people that let them into their farmsteads and plantation areas, people they were very familiar with, in other words. They'd been living together for five years or so in peace. So these men gathered and shortly after about eight o'clock on the morning of March 22nd, 1622, they launched the attack simultaneously all along the Powhatan James River.

The most devastating attacks take place upriver. Whole communities of settlers are wiped out, decimated. If you could look down, take a bird's eye view of what was going on, you would have seen plantations burning. You would have heard the sounds of musket fire, of screams, of men and women being attacked, of livestock being slaughtered.

Fighting is going along simultaneously all along the James River Valley, and that includes Jamestown. And this may be a good example, actually, of one of the first amphibious attacks on an English settlement, because there's some evidence to suggest that warriors attacked from the Powhatan James River...

in maybe four or five wall canoes. The wall canoe could carry up to 40 warriors, so they're attacking from the river at the same time. Warriors would have been seeking to get inside the palisade. Fortunately for the English, unfortunately for the Powhatan, they weren't able to get

inside the James Fort and therefore the attack was beaten off. But had they been able to overrun Jamestown, that may well have been the end game that Opie Kankano was looking for because they would have captured the English leaders

cut them off and probably prevented the reprisals that took shape later on. So it was a war on the entire English settler colony along the James River.

It was a war on people, but it was equally a war on property. So it was critical to Opikankano's strategy that he wipe out as many people as he could in as short of time as he could, holding together a great coalition, maybe 1,500 warriors together.

destroying as much property as he could to discourage the English from regrouping or trying to come back from this devastating attack. One of the most devastating attacks

by an indigenous people on any English colony during this period of empire on the part of the English. Most of the major tribes of the James River and York River were involved in the attack, and I think it took years of planning of convincing the tribes that this was their only option, because if they didn't, the English would eventually take over their land, as Powhatan had warned years earlier. And he was, of course, right.

Sadly for the Powhatan peoples of the region, yes, he was. So after this devastating attack in 1622, the colonists had to face another winter of starvation and, of course, ongoing hostilities that lasted another 10 years. Why didn't the English give up? Well, I'm just going to reverse that a little because I think Opikankano would have been asking the same question. And what Opikankano couldn't have foreseen was that the English would keep coming.

So for someone so adept at reading European intentions, how did he get that wrong? Because by getting it wrong, he subjected his people to a long period of attacks and devastation of Indian communities and cornfields and so on. What were the English up to by refusing to leave? I think there's a one-word answer to this, and I think that the one word is tobacco.

Tobacco on the English London market was still enormously profitable, and the hope was that rather than retreating, flood more settlers into the region, overcome the power towns militarily, stabilize the settlements along the James River,

and then produce the tobacco that would bring in the profits from London. That was the hope of the Virginia Company. Only by continuing, the Virginia Company thought, could they gain any profit ultimately from this effort that had gone on at least for 15 years and might last longer if they could get enough settlers to go to Virginia.

So instead of driving out the English, as Opie Kankano would have hoped, more and more settlers arrived. But he did, Opie Kankano did, succeed in bringing down the Virginia Company. They lost their charter. How did this change things for the colonists and, I suppose, the Virginia Indians? As far as the colonists were concerned, the end of the company really meant a period of

initially, at least, of insecurity because they were worried about their titles to the land that they had taken from the Powhatans and the future government, which would be a royal government under the auspices of the king, James I, and then subsequently Charles I.

Charles reassures the settlers in Virginia that their property rights would be recognized and secured. As far as the Indians were concerned, nothing changes apart from more settlers coming in and more regular attacks being organized as settlement begins to grow on the English side, taking more and more of the prime tobacco growing lands along the rivers. So

Sadly, for the power times, things get worse. But after the Second Anglo-Palatine War ended in 1632 and peace lasted for about 12 years, O.P. Kankano decided to fight again in 1644. What was the reason for this? Some sort of desperate last stand?

No, I don't think he saw it that way. Historians have, but I don't think he would have launched it as a symbolic act. I think he believed that he could overcome the English finally. The catalyst was he heard about the outbreak of civil war.

in England. And I think that's another remarkable aspect of his success in intelligence gathering. So he heard about the upheaval in England and realized this was a great opportunity to attack the English whilst they're weakened overseas and in the Chesapeake. But not weakened enough. So after decades of warfare with the English, what ended up happening to Obi Kankana?

Well, it's a bit of a tragic story, I think, because he, by this time, is nearing 100 years old. And he ultimately is captured by Sir William Barclay, the governor of Virginia in 1646, and taken back to Jamestown. He eventually is shot in the back by one of his jailers.

We don't know exactly why that happened, but that was his end. What do you think Opecancano's legacy is today? I think the legacy of Opecancano is that he certainly prevented any further expansion of Spanish settlement in the Chesapeake region.

And I think there's a legacy of resistance here that is, to my mind, very understandable that Opikankano would lead this prolonged resistance to European invasion. And I think that tells us a lot about the Powhatans, but I actually think it tells us a lot about ourselves and Europe.

When we're looking at the history of early Virginia, we're looking at the history of early English America, this is what took place. It's at times a pretty ugly story, and I think it's something that is important for us today to understand so that we can better understand ourselves and better understand society.

The peoples who survive and the Papunki people still survive. They live on their ancient ancestral lands to this very day and so do 10 other Virginia Indian tribes. And it's a testament to their fortitude and endurance, I think symbolized by Opikankano's resistance that they're still part of the Commonwealth of Virginia and play such an important part in the lives of modern Virginians today.

Well, Jim Horn, thank you so much for joining me today on American History Tellers. Oh, sure. It's been a real pleasure talking to you. Thanks a lot. That was my conversation with Dr. James Horn. His book, A Brave and Cunning Prince, The Great Chief Opie Kankano and the War for America is available now wherever you get your books.

From Wondery, this is the fifth and final episode of our series on Jamestown for American History Tellers. In our next season, as the Civil War rages, two companies race to connect America from coast to coast by constructing the world's first transcontinental railroad. But in order to lay nearly 2,000 miles of iron track, armies of workers will have to labor in the freezing cold and blazing heat to conquer granite mountains and desert wastelands.

If you like American History Tellers, you can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. And before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

American History Tellers is hosted, edited, and executive produced by me, Lindsey Graham, for Airship. Sound design by Molly Bach. Music by Lindsey Graham. Voice acting by Joe Hernandez-Kolsky. Additional writing by Ellie Stanton. This episode was produced by Polly Stryker and Alita Rozansky.

Our senior interview producer is Peter Arcuni. Managing producers, Desi Blaylock and Matt Gann. Senior managing producer, Ryan Moore. Senior producer, Andy Herman. And executive producers are Jenny Lauer-Beckman, Marshall Louis, and Erin O'Flaherty for Wondery. The

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