When You’re Tired of Holding Up the Sky
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It's hard to find a great mentor who can help me and all of us level up. My dream mentor? Well, you know, being an athlete, I've always been a little bit insecure with the studies. And Amanda Gorman and her beautiful work, her beautiful poetry. I was really excited when I heard that she had a class on Masterclass. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best.

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Okay, y'all, today we are sharing a very spontaneous, raw, unplanned conversation that we ended up having when Amanda spoke up for everyone who's been labeled a control freak. For anyone who feels like they have to hold up the entire sky for their families or businesses and then gets accused of being controlling for holding up that whole sky.

when all they really want is to feel supported and safe letting go. Amanda shares in this episode how she became an over-functioner, the blessings and curses of being one, and the practical strategies she's using to let go. And she also shares what her partner John is doing to make her feel like she can finally let go. So, are you with Amanda? Are you holding up the sky because nobody else will?

Does the constant to-do list ticker looping in your head make you feel like a dormant volcano? And if so, what the hell is the solution? Well, Amanda has some hard-won ideas that she shares with us today about how to stop over-functioning so you can finally relax. Let's listen. Welcome to...

Hi, everybody. We are back. Thanks for spending your time with us. Today is a tripod, just the three of us. And we are discussing all of your questions that just give us so much to think about.

I'm going to surprise the two of you and we are actually going to start with some rapid fire questions. Oh, this is fun. Also, I just feel like a little saucy today. You do? Yeah, I feel it. I feel like I want to interrupt you a lot. Oh, God. And like, I don't know what that is. It's this.

Energy that comes into Abby where she, in the beginning of our relationship, when she got like this, she would do this thing that they used to do on their soccer team, I guess, where they'd be walking next to their friend and she would stick out her foot and try to, okay.

Walking behind your friend. Okay. She'd be walking behind me and she would try to trip me. Like while we were in our romantic period. And I was like, what is happening? That's something that's never happened to me while I was dating. Men never tried to trip me while we were walking. I know. And they just did it metaphorically. Yes. Figuratively. Exactly. She just did it literally. I did it one time. And then what happened? And then she looked at me one this way that, that scared me.

Well, you like to play and we have had some moments recently. Sister, the other day. Is it the thing where you knee? I do it to my kids all the time. It's so fun where you while they're walking, you like knee them right in the knee. So their legs buckle. No, it's different. That's great, sister. What the hell? No, it's different because you just find. Yeah, you swoop their leg. You kick their one foot into the other. So they literally they trip themselves.

It's hilarious. I want you to know that I truly at a deep level don't understand why anyone would want to do that to someone they love. I mean, for instance, the other day I was playing with her. You know, I'm trying to like... No, you were playing at her. Exactly. You never played with her. That's right. So have you ever... You parallel play. Yes. Have you ever been a little kid and your brother is holding your hand and...

And I can stop right there. Never been a little kid and my brother did anything. Okay. So her cousin, I was also never a little kid. I've been 40 since the minute I was born. I was an old soul, which obviously just means you didn't have serotonin. So somebody is holding your own hand and they're forcing you to slap your own face.

Just like real light. You hit yourself. You hit yourself. Yeah. So Glenn and I, I was having a little play session evidently at Glennon and I was just like lightly tapping her face with her own hand. Like I was like manipulating her hand that way. And she just let go. And she just like hit me with her, her hand. I was like, no, I said you hit yourself. And then I slapped her in the face. She goes,

Why don't you know how to play? Well, we didn't. It's an underdeveloped skill. Yeah. For us. I slapped her. I was like, wait, I looked at her face. I'm like, wait, that doesn't feel like what we were just doing. She escalated. You looked at me with scorn. Are you ready to play? This is my idea of playing. This is playing with words. Yes. Oh my gosh. Are you two ready? Yeah. I mean, all right.

I can't wait to see our version of rapid because it's probably going to be like molasses. This is definitely a real rapid because I haven't seen these, to which I object. Okay, rapid means fast. It doesn't mean... I know, but in order to go fast, don't you have to have some advanced planning? No, that's what we think, but...

We're going to try it a different way, Sissy. We're going to see how you do when you don't know what the hell's going on. That's funny. Where you haven't researched the origins of each of these questions. I'm going to stretch. I mean, that's so funny, the rapid fire. In order to go fast, don't you have to know the questions? Also, I took a screenshot. Okay, so we posted on Instagram our questions.

Toothbrush saga? Yeah. It was my toothbrush, which is disgusting. Abby's toothbrush was just so clean that it looks like a serial killer. And somebody said, I just need to know what, I need a third option. I need to know what sister's toothbrush looks like. And somebody else commented back and said, sister's toothbrush comes with a spreadsheet. Awesome. Sister and Abby. First sister, then Abby. Okay, good. What's the one emotion hardest for you to carry? Fear. Fear.

I would say sadness, like for the reels, but on a topical level, frustration. Okay. Is that an emotion?

I don't know. Is frustration an emotion? If it's an emotion for you, it's an emotion. I feel so frustrated. I hate that feeling. Oh, when Tish was little, she used to sit and time out where she lived. I know we don't do that anymore, but we were doing it when our kids were little. She turned out good. And she used to scream, Mommy, I so frustrating. And you were like, yes, you are so frustrating. There's one thing we agree on, honey.

What's the one emotion that's hardest for you to receive in others? This is so rapid. I know what it is. I'm having trouble describing it. Just describe it. You don't have to say it in a word. Softness. Like what you would perceive as weakness? No, because I know intellectually it's not weak. Is it tenderness? Vulnerability? If you come at me hard, I know how to come back at you. If you come at me soft, I'm like...

Okay. So like if someone has a problem with you or they have something going on that they want to talk to you about, if they come at you like, fuck you, you're okay. But if they come at you like, my feelings are hurt and I don't know what to do about it, that's hard for you. Yeah. I would like to amend. Okay. First is the first hardest thing to come at me is some kind of pity or concern or

Or the acknowledgement that I need any help is the first hardest one. And then softness just generally is hard. So like if John wants to address something in a soft way, I just have to recalibrate very quickly and try to get there. Example.

What's something John would want to come at in a soft way and you'd have to recycle? Recalibrate. If he's like, I'm worried about how you're doing with X. Okay. And then I'm like, okay, now you want to talk about it? Because I have to keep doing X. So then I have to stop doing X and then talk about how I feel about doing X.

It just feels like it's such an extracurricular of- Oh, this is so interesting. And also, can we just dig in here a little bit? Sure. This is such a rapid fire. We're going to just call it fire question. I think-

This is a bit of a universal thing. We've talked about like over-functioners, right? Over-functioners. That's a thing. A lot of people are over-functioners, meaning control freak. What are some other words for over-functioners? The person who is the center of the organization or family or whatever that has to do- The accountability holder. The accountability holder. Okay. Okay. That's good. For all the accountability holders who are listening,

who are juggling, juggling, keeping all the plates spinning. And then the people on the outside are like, I feel like they're freaking out, but I don't know how to approach or help. What would be good for John to say? Let's say we're talking about John and just John. Yeah.

Okay. So for this morning that happened, actually, I'm very stressed out. I have a thousand things going on today and need to be done in a very compressed period of time. First of all, I think it's nice to set the table with it. I have learned this. So I just, today he was talking to me this morning and I said, I'm going to do this.

um, I'm going to be very anxious today. I have to be incredibly efficient today. So I want you to know that while you're talking to me, I'm going to be walking around. I'm listening to you, but this is a day I need to be incredibly efficient. And so that's what you can expect. So, and he was like, got it. And then I was sitting down to something and he's, he said, what can I do for you today to help?

And had this been a year ago, I would have been like, nothing. It's fine. Got it. And just why don't you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I just said these five things would be really helpful. And he's like, got it. And so we are doing really well in that department. So I think even just a year ago, he would have been like, she's pissed at me for some unknown reason. And the last thing that I'm going to do is ask her about it.

Or acknowledge it because I don't know what it is. And she probably doesn't know what it is, but she's just generally walking around in a pissy way. Mm-hmm.

that we never would have gotten to the acknowledgement of like, this isn't about you. This is about me being really anxious. And also we wouldn't have gotten to the point where he's like, okay, well, what can I do to take off your plate today to help you with that? And then I never would have gotten to the third step of being like, actually, can you get this from the addict? Can you make sure this is done in the house? Can you make that call to the doctor? Hmm.

And I wouldn't have trusted that then he'd actually do those things. And so I feel like over the last year, we've made a lot of progress in that way. But I think

That's the thing. So that versus being like, you're so stressed out. What's going on? How can, what are we going to do about you being so stressed out? That doesn't help me because I don't need another job, which is to talk about this complex, troubling situation that I'm just stressed out. I just need to get through the thing I'm stressed out about. And I could use a little help with that tangible concrete help. One of the things that's so fascinating to me about this experiment is

that you're going through right now is the self-awareness that you had to have and the responsibility that you had to take on for your anxiety. Because maybe a year ago, you would just been like, I got to do this all on my own. But like you were still enough and conscious and aware enough to be like, I'm going to be

fucking on one today. And so I need to let him know that I'm going to be on one and that it empowered him to come to you. Then it empowered you to start trusting him with withholding some of that. That's a miracle to me. Yeah. And makes him understand, oh God, this isn't about me. Yeah. The whole time. Right. This isn't about me and we can be on the same team. Wow. So good job. Do you think that there's a type of person are over functioners, just the person that everybody,

defaults to give them their shit because they feel like they can't do it or whatever? Or is the over-functioner personality type

Only comfortable when they have all of the things. Both of those. I think it's a cyclical situation. I think that the, whatever reason over functioners have, you know, nature or nurture has, has figured out a way where they view the world as if it's within their sight line, um,

that they have some level of accountability to ensure that it goes right. And that can be a blessing and a curse. I think it's a blessing and a curse, right? Because I think one of the greatest things that you can have in life is this sense of tremendous self-efficacy where it's like,

can impact everything around me. I can take care of things. I am not scared of handling things. I believe in myself to get it done. That's a great thing. But then it can over index to the point where you're like, because I believe that there is nothing that can happen around me that

that I don't feel a role in making sure it goes well and making sure it's done. But I think that what happens is over-functioners step into a place. I know in my relationship, the impact on John has been, why would I bother? Yes. Because every time I start to do something, you swoop in and decide what's wrong with it and make it different.

So I'm just not trying anymore. This was something that we struggled with a lot. And so then that person who would otherwise be doing things is like, absolutely fuck it. And they don't do it anymore. And so then you have even more to do. And then you get bitter and resentful because you're like, why aren't people doing things? But it's because you would swoop in and redo it or undo it.

or criticize the way it was being done. So then the person who's the under-functioner maybe didn't start that way, but they sure as shit didn't start as an over-functioner. Mm-hmm. That's so interesting.

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Let's go places. So what happens then? Does the over-functioner have to begin to accept the price of having everything done as well as I can do that, do it? Is becoming so high on my own self and like this relationship where the other person feels frozen to try, right?

that now the goal is not going to be an A-plus anymore, but it's going to be like a B-plus or an A-minus with things that need to get done. That will kill me because I'm an A-plus person, but it will kill me less than the A-plus life is. I'm trying to rethink that a little bit because when it all comes down to it, there's a little bit of hubris, a little bit of...

fatal pride in even that model of looking at it, which, you know, I'm a strong advocate of that belief system, but I'm trying to adjust it because I realized recently in our relationship, um, we were doing something with respect to, uh,

the way that my son was behaving. And I came to a realization about it that we were not guiding him the way that he should be guided, that there needed to be a shift in the way that we were dealing with him in a way that was impacting him and his relationship. So we were letting certain things go. And this is a whole complicated situation because of his brain structure. It's very hard to know like how much to really crack down and hold the line and how much you need to accommodate and

the way that he was made. And so that's been a tricky line for us the whole time. And I came and sat down with John and I was like,

oh my God, we've been doing this wrong. I just came to this realization and we cannot be letting these things slide. We need to stop this because there's a difference between having the freedom of all of these emotions to feel versus the freedom to act in any way you want. And we have got to help him define the line between feeling and acting. And he said, oh yeah, I've known that for a long time.

Didn't he listen to our Q&A where you're not supposed to say it after? He did not. He did not. And it is impossible to overstate my emotional reaction to that because I was...

so enraged and felt so betrayed because I felt like, oh my God, I might be fucking up all of this, but I am at least showing up with what I believe is right with like all of my heart and my might in trying to do what is right that I might find out later is wrong.

But I sure as shit am not doing what I know is wrong because I'm too afraid to acknowledge it or bring it up. And I was so scared.

pissed because it just felt like it was like, you're alone. Like not only alone, but you're sitting over here knowing we're fucked up and you're going along with it and you're guiding our children the wrong way, even though you know it's wrong. Like it felt so upsetting. And, and we came to this place of a new understanding of,

Where I realized that my over-functioning, my strong-willedness, my I-know-what's-right-and-what's-an-A-plus-and-we're-doing-it-my-way frame of looking at our family and the world actually led us there. Because he was like, yeah, I've known that it's wrong.

And also I trust you and you have great ideas and you seem to think this was right. And also this is what ends up happening anyway is what you think is right because you think my shit is B plus. When he said, I know he meant, yeah, I've had that hunch. My opinion is that we have been doing it wrong, but I just, my pattern is to default to your opinion because I have trained myself to trust you even more than myself. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so what I realized is that, first of all, it was really helpful for the anti-gaslighting because it was like, when I felt like it was just me at the helm, that's because it was just me at the helm. Yeah. And we had this conversation where it was so helpful to hear him say that because it went from a betrayal experience.

of him to me and him to our kids to being the betrayal of the way that we had set up the leadership of our family to our family.

And I had to be like, I actually do need every one of your ideas and every bit of your wisdom, whether it looks like pushback or whether it looks like contribution. We need that because I am not always right. And I'm always think I'm right, but I am not always right. And so I need you to come in and be like, no, not OK. This is what we're doing. And I'll push back as much as I can.

Because I know myself and I'm going to push back on that. And then we need to end up in a place that has the benefit of both of our wisdom. Because what I've been assuming was an A plus is not. And it was freeing for me because I'm not steering the ship on my own. And it's freeing for him because he's like, I am responsible for steering the ship. Yeah. And so he expressing that to me was,

I was like, I need you at the helm of this with me. I'm not asking you to do the job by standing down and being a crewmate. You are a captain. You need to do this. And so all of that's a really long way of saying, I am not looking at it as the A plus B minus anymore. I'm looking at it like,

No one has all the answers and you need the benefit of the full wisdom to get there. And then you need to empower people to feel like their wisdom matters because it actually does. Yes.

Damn, sissy. Good job, you and honey. Holy crap. Okay. First of all, did he have the same realizations as you? I remember in my first marriage, because I had a situation a little bit like this, I felt like I was the only one. I remember saying, I'm going to run this ship into the ground if nobody says anything. I don't know what I'm doing. I know if I make a decision, we're going that way fast.

which makes it even more important for people who are high functioners, lots of agency, lots of leadership to like have a strong person on the other side. So after that conversation, was he tracking with all of those realizations that you just had? Like would he? Yes. Okay. And at first he did not understand the betrayal part of it. Okay. And so we got to the place where he's like, I get it. And then I think it was deeply, um,

moving to him to be like, I need you. There's a level of over-functioning that's like, who's going to pick up the kids and who's going to make sure we have dog food. And then there's a level of over-functioning that like you said, running the ship into the ground, that's where that deep loneliness and I think deepest level of resentment comes from because you're like, I can't handle and don't want this.

to be in charge of all of this. I need to know that I am not in charge and I need to know that I can tap out and I need to know that you are

are leading just as much as I am leading. And I think in many ways, he was like really eager and ready to stand and be like, put me in coach. That's right here. And, and he has been, and it's, and he's been doing it. And I have been checking myself when it isn't a decision I would make. I have to be like,

Well, maybe that's something I haven't thought of. Maybe that's a new way. We have two children. We have completely different personalities and people. There isn't like a script that we're trying to follow here. What we're trying to do is raise two people with two people who are thoughtful. Yeah. And because parenting or marriage or whatever is about like the combination of two full human beings who are expressing themselves completely. Like if you're paint and he's paint,

Your life is whatever color those two paints make together when they're both pouring themselves on the page. It's not about right or wrong decisions. Right. Sometimes it's just about seeing the color of both of you. So I also think that in marriage, you know, the way that I think about the way we kind of operate is like Glennon has extraordinary strengths and so do I.

And I am so grateful for her strengths and you're grateful for mine, but they're just so different. And so each kid is going to require a different circumstance and a different set of decisions to be made on the daily. You'll get completely tapped out if you have to be the one that's making all the decisions. I also think it's important for those listening is to, um,

And I want you to like hold this for us. Mm hmm.

And that will, I mean, literally like his brain will blow up. Like, yeah, I think that that's so cool. I also think there's this fantasy that we live in where we're trying so desperately to make things be okay for our families that we're like, if I just stay vigilant, if I just do the thing, if I just keep everyone on the same page and I figure out what that page should be and we do it, then things will be okay. And partnership is the hardest shit that

I've ever done. And I think what often happens, at least if you're partnered with someone like me, or if you are someone like me, is that people might be following the page, but it's like you driving it. And then it's like a ghost of a person following the page. And what you really don't want or need in your life is a ghost of a person that doesn't go well for any damn body. And so

If you try the other way, maybe there's some shit you wouldn't have written on the page. Maybe there's some stuff you think is actually wrong. But then you have a non-ghost. You have like a full ass person with all their experiences, with all their wisdom. You picked them. You picked them for a lot of reasons. Then you're like, here's the person I picked. Please leave all of your experiences.

and all of your insights and all of everything at the door and jump on my script. Yeah. Why? You're losing the full experience of that person. And you have to be humble enough that you don't know all the answers. And also that you need wisdom outside of yourself, if only because you

you are going to be bitter and strung out and afraid. I realized how afraid I was. And in that moment with that, what I thought of as a betrayal, I realized no wonder I'm afraid because when I feel like I'm truly the only one leading this family, it's because I have set up this family so that I am the one leading this family. Yes. And that serves no one.

And I feel less afraid right now. I feel like I'm like, everybody's on, everybody's focused, everybody's doing the best they can. And are we going to make mistakes? Yeah. But also we were making mistakes before when I was dictating. And everyone was scared and you were alone. And I was scaredest of all. I was scaredest of everyone. Yes. Yes.

Because I knew at a deep level that it was me. And I know at a deep level that I don't know everything. Yeah. And to all like you and everyone who like you give yourself grace for this pattern, because I think what happens is people who have this personality, the over, whatever we're calling over functioners today, know that that's what they have. So

People who like that tend to be drawn to a partner who maybe is more relaxed or maybe is, has a different set of like way of being in the world that offers a little more chill. And that's what you yearn for.

And so you match yourself to that person because of that thing, because some subconscious part of you thinks they're going to add ease, they're going to add relaxing, they're going to add this part. And then of course we know what happens when the love drug wears off, what's left is

that thing that you fell in love with drives you batshit crazy and scares the shit out of you because your narrative about yourself, that you're the only one that can lead, that you're the only one that can be dependent on that you, and then you see the other person's ease as not caring as laziness. And then you forget that's what you wanted. Yeah. And, and I think in some cases, um,

People are genuinely partnered with people who are passive and don't give a shit. And I think in many cases, people are partnered with people who appear to be passive and don't give a shit because those people are smart and have read the room and know that what is happening is what the over-functioner determines is going to happen. And so they polarize into this side where it's like, well,

Just got to like sit tight and support the script. But when they are invited, when you say to them, I need you. Yeah. I need you to be leading. I need the benefit of all of you in your full glory, not just supporting what I think, but bringing what you think and pushing back on me when what I think is wrong in your opinion. Then they're like, holy shit. Great.

And then they step up in a way that you've been wanting them to step up the whole time and wondering why they weren't.

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Like say it's- They plan a birthday party. Okay. They plan a birthday party and it's like sucks to you. I mean, that's a bridge too far. Okay. Let's be clear. Nobody who's not an over-functioner is planning a fucking birthday party. So they send an email. They send an email. Yes. They send an email. Okay. I'll give you that. Right. And this email is like, whoa, there's like three typos. It's got some-

crap in it. It's like, you're looking at it because of course you've asked to be CC'd and you're like-

this does not represent, because that's still going to come up, right? That the over-functioner, like this does not represent my A plus family. So what does one do? Does one during this exercise of letting go and whatever, does the over-functioner try very, very hard to let that go? Because it's the price of correcting it and shaming it is higher than the price of allowing a B plus email to go out into the world.

I will say two things. My suggestion to the over-functioner is that you come to a mutual understanding with your partner about what the end result will be. The end result is that we get this kid enrolled in this class. The end result is that the kid gets a ride home from baseball practice. Okay? And then...

You don't want to be CC'd on that email. You don't want to see how the sausage is made. You want to say, deliver me the sausage. And then you just let it go. But if you don't agree on the final outcome, then saying, make plans for the weekend. That's too much. That's too much. We need to say...

Baby steps. We're going to make plans to get home from baseball. Right. Great. You got that? That's clearly in your bucket. No ambiguity. No ambiguity. That is you and not me. Then you just have to let go. I will say that you have to, again, let go of the hubris and imagine that there is something that is outside of the way that you're thinking that...

is possible in the way that your other person is thinking. So we had a whole thing go down where God bless Johnny Lynch. He was

very concerned about the safety of the bus stops of where our kids were being picked up on the bus stop. And there were no sidewalks and it's a very busy street. And he was like, I am dealing with this. And I was like, Oh God. Oh, so nervous. We're talking about like principals. We're talking about like really high up people in our school system. I am so afraid we're using all

of our like family equity. Yes, and the over-functioner thinks

We need to put our best foot forward here with these people. Oh my God. Which is me. No, this is like big stakes in my little world. These are big fix it. Yes. He didn't talk to me about it. He didn't ask me. All of a sudden emails are flying all of a sudden. And I was just like, I have to swallow very deeply. This is his thing. He has decided this is his thing. And he is the parent of these kids and God bless him. And wouldn't you know that like three days later,

He has a full-on solution that every day when we go to the bus stop, I'm like, I would not have gotten this for our family. Wow. And the kid's safety was the issue. Yes. And so...

It just like, that was open to interpretation, obviously, but his interpretation was strong. And I just had to let go. If I would have done my over-functioning thing where I've been like, no, no, no, no, we're good. This is what we're going to do. That's not important. Here's what's important. A, it would have stifled his thing where he knew that was something that was important to him for our family. And B, the outcome was,

Wouldn't have outcame. Wouldn't have outcame. No. Do you feel like all of this way in all of your situations? Do you feel this way at work? Because you and I are kind of running a family. You know what I mean? Like you and I are in a similar situation to you and John. I feel like, you know, in our little team, the folks that we have on our team are so...

accountable and so trustworthy. I used to feel like that before Dina and Allison were with us because it just felt like, oh my God, oh my God, any ball could drop and I have to be searching the skies for the balls at all times and making sure they're not falling and I'm so stressed out and I can't sleep. I know that the two of them are so

more than accountable and capable and devoted to their universe of balls. And they take care of them completely. And I don't even think about it. I do think that it is something that pervades every aspect of my life, though. It is such a blessing and such a curse because the problem with me is I think that

everything and everyone is my business. And the gift of me is that I think everyone and everything is my business. So that can be obnoxious to other people and it can be obnoxious to yourself when you are taking on the emotional regulation role.

of everyone within a mile vicinity of you. And it can be a huge blessing because you're seeing things out in the world that are little things that you can just connect with people and help people out and be part of the world that you're living in. So I think it has to be seen as like a really positive thing too. I think it's really good in a lot of ways. What are some things that we could do because we're in a mile of that orbit for you?

What are some things that we can do like John to be able to share the responsibility with you to make you feel like we've got this with you to make you less scared and afraid? Or do you feel like you have leaders? Yeah, totally. Totally. That happens all the time. Like recently when we were planning for my parents 50th and they,

I wrote to one of you and was like, can you handle this itinerary? And glad you wrote back and you're like, I think we should do X, Y, and Z. And I'm like, no, that's not what I was asking. I wasn't asking for your feedback so that I could plan the itinerary. I was asking, could you take this ball and carry it? And so it took a lot for me to be like, no, I'm not asking for you to like,

give your edits and give me back the ball. I'm asking you to like take this ball so I don't need to think about it. And then you guys took it and did the whole thing and it was such a huge, amazing relief and it was beautiful. And so I think that it's getting to a place where you're like, I don't need

to control and monitor and quality control this thing. I just need to know what is mine to do and what is someone else's to do. And then if you can actually give and ask people to do things and then not control it in the process,

then that's what everyone needs. Cause no one wants to be responsible for things, but not accountable for them. Like they want to know if it's theirs or not. Can I just tell you, I like walked on air that day that you asked us to take on that responsibility. I was like, sister called me in. This is so exciting because here's the thing. Like, and I'm sure John can relate. Like

When you have somebody in your life that is so good at what they do in so many ways, when they ask you for help, that is such a sign of trust. Like, hey,

Can you do this thing? I felt like we got closer. I don't know. I really did. And it like really touched me. So I was working really hard and I was like doing the photos and I was like, I'm doing this, you know? And I know that some of my emails are not a plus. Well, Q, you're amazing. Using this as an example for all the pod squatty people who are trying to work this vibe out in their lives or their work. So you asked Abby to do it.

Does the over-functioner still want to get in there at the end and make sure everything's good? Because you're still doing that, right? You're still sending emails. No, no, what I'm talking about is the trip. When I was talking about that, I was talking about the trip. Remember the trip that they're going on? And I was like, can you take their itinerary for that? And that's when you wrote back and were like, I think this should be the plan. And I'm like, great, can you do it? Yeah, yeah. But for that, what we're doing right now,

That I just want to contribute and be like, what are the last minute things? Are we buttoned up on this? Because what I would say about that from the other perspective. So Podsquad, what we're saying is plan the party. Abby planned the party. Sister's still all, you know, everybody's like contributing. But Abby's been doing all the emails. But then at the end, sister's still stepping in, you know, lists of things. Have we thought of this, this, this, this? Some of which we hadn't thought of. We'll make the party better.

But it's still like on our end and probably not you. I was probably like, oh God, are we not doing what we're supposed to be doing? A few of the things that you listed in the email probably will make the party better, but probably would have been okay if they weren't there. So the question is, will it be a new era when you're like, okay, we're going to just like they took it.

And I'm going to see how it goes. It's interesting. I think there's two things happening there. One is the like PTSD of being in relationship with a over-functioner. Like you're saying, you're like, so is the fact that she's writing this email right now suggests that we were not doing something or fucking something up. So that's a whole phenomenon that I get. And that's certainly probably very alive in a lot of relationships.

But when I feel like everyone is sharing a load so well, that's the beauty of the shared load. That's what makes things magic, right? Is at the end, these, because I guarantee if I had been doing that whole thing, I wouldn't have thought of those little things at the end that are going to make it better.

So I don't think it's like, now I can't touch this thing. It's like, that's the sprinkles that are possible with capacity when everyone is carrying it in a way that isn't possible. Sometimes, like when we're doing something for work and Allison will have worked 10 hours on something and then I'll like work an hour on it to massage it. And then we take it to you and you're like, oh, what about this? And sometimes it's like, God damn it. We've been looking at that for 12 hours. But...

Then it's like, no, it took this process. Yes. It's like we had to get from A to B to make C possible. And so I think that there's something about that that's like, yeah, that is all necessary and good to get to the place where you're like, that's where the magic happens. So you weren't like, damn it, these things aren't done.

No, my God, no. I was like, I'm here. I've got, I haven't done any of this stuff. I want to make sure I'm contributing to help out with these last minute things. And in the process thought of these other little things and added them in. There was zero part of that that was like an angsty, resentful thing. It was like a gratitude. Yeah.

So what, as you're working on this with John, our team, the three of us with our parents, what is the dream for the over-functioner in relationship and in leadership? What does whatever you're working towards look like?

for the part that you can control, I guess. The total dream and what I think John and I are working towards and what I feel now that I didn't feel before is, which the reason I didn't feel before was partly of my own creation, is that I am not alone and that I have the benefit of

of wisdom and perspective and judgment that is outside of my wisdom and perspective and judgment, and that I have confidence and trust in whether I am unable to, or dare I say, unsuitable to a certain thing, that it will be done

in a way that's in the best interests of our team. And that's what peace is to me. It's like you can sleep because someone else is carrying the sky with you. Yeah. That's right. I remember, so in my first marriage, I was really...

confused about money. And I think I still am working out a lot of that stuff, but I kept throughout our marriage, giving away all of our money. We didn't even have a lot of money. I know as a teacher, but I don't know if I had shame or I don't know what it was, but three times. I remember that. There was that orphanage in Central America where you gave literally all your money. All of our money, our entire bank account, because I found out that they were going to shut down or something. I don't know.

And bless Craig's heart, he came home and I was like, this is what we're supposed to do. And P.S., back then, I was an evangelical Christian accidentally. So it's just different language. Bad news, got a message from the G.O.D. Say goodbye to your bank account. How are you going to argue with that? That's the language I used. I feel called to do this. Like, I feel...

Like, what are we? And so then, and then I started a preschool in my basement and I used all of our money. Every, we just saved up again to. But luckily the preschool was so lucrative that it worked out. Yeah. Cause I promised Craig that we would have students who would pay, but then I didn't charge anyone. Anyway, I'm not, I'm not proud of it. I'm actually really not. I feel like I was confused. I was had shame about money or whatever. So I just kept empty and giving it all away. When Abby and I like a year into our relationship, um,

We were having some kind of money talk and I brought up this and she looked at me and she goes, I just want you to know that will never happen again. You will never give away all of our money again. And I looked at her like someone had saved me. Someone had saved me from myself. I don't know why I keep thinking of this moment when you're talking, but I felt like

Yes. Thank you. I am not good at this. Like I have people just letting me sink this ship left and right. Yeah. Yeah. If you, if I keep being, I will burn this shit to the ground. That is what I mean, sister. This is what.

John and I have talked about so much is that the people who are the over-functioners are often labeled as the control freaks and the people who can't let go. And what on behalf of over-functioners everywhere, what I want to say is what we desperately want more than anything is

is to acquiesce control, to not be in charge of everything. And whether it's from our own lived experience or whether it's from the circumstances of the relationships that we have chosen or whether it's from the polarization that we have enforced on our partners because we have been so over-functioning that has forced them to the passive end of the spectrum, we genuinely feel that

Like we cannot give up control. We genuinely feel like love looks like continuing to hold up the sky with exactly the same vigor that we always have done. And what feels like the greatest offering you could give someone is to say, I am here. You are with me. You are not alone. And I am here watching over every step of this with you. And I am not going to let you

Make mistakes. I am not going to let you be in charge of this whole thing. That's what we want to hear. I am not going to let you control this thing forever because what we want is someone who will be accountable for it with us. That's what we want. Even though it looks like that's the last goddamn thing we want. And the person has to say, accountability is going to look different. Mm-hmm.

Your idea of accountability is not necessarily our idea of accountability. So whereas you might say, I'm going to be on fire today. I'm going to be whatever. The other person might say, I'm going to make mistakes and I'm going to do this my way. And we're going to get to our goal, but it might look different than the way that you would do it. And you're just going to have to be okay with that. Mm-hmm.

Oh my God, PodSquad, just so you know, that was question two of our rapid fire, which was only supposed to be the five minute introduction to the PodSquad questions that we were going to get to today. You should have told me the questions in advance. I would have done it rapid fire. Longest rapid fire ever. I'm so grateful. I think this idea of

And especially as women, because, you know, men are never called control freaks. That's a gender thing. And like, I just, I want to hear from the pod squad about this. I want to know if you have ideas for how to make this a system of like undoing, getting the over-functioner off the hook a little bit and, you know,

creating atmospheres where the other people can bring their full selves again because they don't feel afraid and how we can get more people at the helm of the ship so that everybody can feel safe and less alone. It's a big, beautiful deal. And Sissy, thank you for being so open. Oh my gosh, of course. I think it's the greatest gift, honestly, of the last year of our lives because I, you look also at your partner differently. You're like, I,

need you. He's the one I need. And I respect you and I trust you and we need you. And also I can breathe because I don't think the happiness and safety of this family is predicated on me not breathing. Yeah.

So whereas everyone else does a rapid fire, we do a slow burn. And that slow burn was for you today, PodSquad. Sissy, I just want to say to you that your sister and I love you. And we think that you might need to hear from us that we are a part of this and we've got this together. I know that, girl. You know I know that. I just want to be clear.

Cause it seems like the communication bits really important and your self-awareness. I just am so happy for you. I'm going to delete all my texts. I started that say, I'm just concerned that you seem stressed out. Do you know what's weird? A while back I was getting, I was getting ready to send you a text and Abby was like, what are you doing? And I, it literally said, I just feel worried or concerned or something. I feel like you're stressed out today. And Abby goes, don't say the word concerned to sister.

I was like, what? Concerned? She's like, I just don't. It's just not. Is that interesting? Concerned is interpreted as me as there's an additional problem of what you need to be aware and address. She said it feels judgy. Interesting. Okay, PodSquad, we are not concerned about you. You've got this along with the help of other people who will equally hold the sky with you. Perhaps. We love you. See you next time. Bye-bye. Bye. Wow.

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We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LaGrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz. ♪