Trump vs Democracy: Two Historians’ Perspectives
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Welcome to another episode of the project part in place for a regularly hitle programming were sharing an episode of on with care swisher she's this journalists um ice lady ice lady care is the coast to vivid and twice a week care interviews power players across industries including business, tech, media, politics. Care does get. Care has kind of the deepest rolodex in the world, literally in this episode that we're sharing today.

Care speaks to historians linsey shawki and tam not toy. Linsey is executive direct of the George washing new president al library. Antimatter y is the former director, the Richard next and presidential library and museum.

I know that sounds like a buck and news fast. It's actually quite interesting. They discuss the birds of american democracy, the structural weaknesses in our system, trust, author and tendencies, and whether not american democracy can survive another truck presidency.

Uh, I like here is interviews because he knows when an arab SHE knows when to let them run. SHE tries to set people up for success. But she's absolutely not scared to push back on them, which I like.

I'm off and self conscious whenever we do an interview together, because every time my finish an interview with care, I think she's Better than an interviewing is a vastly underrated scale. You'd very rarely do you to say, what if I was a great moderator, that I was a great interview, what do you like to interview anyways? Ough, here's .

the episode.

It's song.

Hi everyone from new york magazine in the box media podcast network. This is on with carrer swisher and i'm carrs wisher. My guess today are doctor linz travino y and doctor Timothy tali, two historians who will help us put the real election, Donald trump, into historical context and understand if and how american democracy will stand up to his obvious authoritarian impulses.

If you're anything like me, your feeling look badly today, and you should let yourself feel badly. It's okay. Secondly, get up after you feel badly because there's a lot of work to do.

Thirdly, he is a terrible person and half of our country voted for him knowing that. But it's also important to step back and take the long view with two historians who will help you see this moment with a little more clarity and perhaps make you feel Better. Maybe not, but at least we can try.

Linsey is a presidential historian and the executive director of the George washington presidential library. And our newest book is making the presidency, john Adams and the presidents that forged the republic. But she's written extensively about our first president and probably our best one, George washington.

Tim is a senior research scholar in the faculty of international and public affairs at columbia university and the former director of the federal Richard nick and presidential library and museum. He is the author, coauthor or editor of eight books. Our expert question comes from billa, dear, the creator of political c and author of beyond the big lie and a professor, journalism and public policy at duke. Let's get to IT.

Linsey and tim, thank you for being on on pleasure.

Thank you so much for having a long time listen at first time color.

former president Donald trump is now present elect Donald trump. He won a surprisingly resounding Victory. His republic body won the senate.

We are still waiting for the results from the house, but the top has a good chance of holding IT. We'll see. We're taping this on wednesday, november six, the morning after the election. And I wanted to start by getting your initial reactions to trumps Victory. Linsey and then tim.

i'm I am surprised. I'm really surprised. I think that I have to completely rethink everything I knew about how elections work in what matters. I also think that at this moment, I feel like I need to rethink my general optimism about the world in democracy, in the american people. But I also recognize that there's a lot we don't know yet in terms of how people actually made decisions and why they made decisions. I'm trying to leave space for learning, but mostly i'm just really, really surprised OK.

Just be clear, it's half the american people.

Yes, I guess. I guess I am shocked that what would blows me away is that twenty sixteen, a lot of people, I think, didn't have a sense of who he was. But now more people have voted for the explicit cruelty and venality. And that feels like a very intentional choice. Absolutely.

tim. I wasn't as surprised because I had I sadly come to the understanding the january six didn't matter for half the country. And for me as a historian and citizen, that was the hardest realization that at the very least, being guilty of their election of duty on that day wasn't enough to disqualify someone from national leadership.

We could have a disagreement as to whether he criminally provoked january six, but there is absolutely no doubt the evidence is overwhelming that he did nothing. And the idea that someone like that could be elevated again to national leadership is is is very, very difficult to um swallow and and that became clear to me when IT was so close the fact that donal trump remained not just a viable candidate but a powerful and successful candidate on a national level. 我 told us a lot about ourselves。 And so so i'm afraid as a result, I grasped for myself the fact that Donald trump had been Normalized by enough of the country that he could win. And the fact that he was Normalized tells us something about ourselves.

So we're going about its backing for the between the founding, the country, the nicks err in the present, uh, washington and help create our democracy. Nicks on certainly damage IT. The question for today is how will democratic whether a second trump presidency linsey, you've talked about the parallels between in one thousand and nineties and today back then, they'll sought threat of political violence, contesting elections, foregate reference in our elections, just different foreign interference, the questions over who belonged as a citizen. This is that an ongoing situation in our country forever pretty much walk us through some of the parallels and the key differences.

Well, as you said, there are so many parallels. Many of the chAllenges that we feel in this current moment, and we have faced in previous iterations of american life existed in the seventeen nineties, weak political parties, really intense partisanship, foreign ference and elections, questions about citizenship and who belongs, xenophobia, legislation that tackles citizenship and freedom of speech, political violence, actual political violence and the threat of political violence. And I think weak institutions.

There have been times in american life where our institutions have been quite strong in the seventeen nineties because they were so new, and they didn't have the long scope of decades and centuries of served building them up, they were quite weak and fragile. So all of that sounds similar to us. And I think that should what I see is the key difference is in the seventeen nineties, there was a shared sense by both parties, both the democratic publicans in the federalist, that one misstep might cause the nation to completely fall apart.

Because IT was so new, and I was so far, and I yeah, and I think the difference is that most of those people had skin in the game. They had either literally fought in the revolution to found the nation, or they had participated in the institutions, whether become congress or state legislators. And so they knew how hard IT was to build something.

They knew what fragile looked like. And I think the election of one two hundred, they were all sort of chastened by how close they came to be completely blown apart. And as a result, most people stepped back from the brink and stepped back from some of that violence and attempted to build bridges.

I think today we're complacent because we think of while the country been around for two hundred house of many years, of course I will continue almost um of course IT will continue to survive. Of course IT will be fine because that's what has always been. But we know from looking at other nations, republicans don't always survive.

They don't say the, in fact, they never .

actually true. And and the three hundred year mark is usually a pretty good indicator of when things can sometimes start to go sideways. So that that is something to keep in mind.

So trump has told his voters that there he will be, the retribution, which is a very unusual word to use. His campaign promised mass deportation camps. He said he will prosecute the rivals and the voters rewarded.

Emi now has possibly the total power over all three branches. By the way. Um tim, there are examples in our history and presidential candidates campaign as a strongman and one abroad Mandate of voters. Has there been anyone else similar .

i've been thinking a little bit about the election of eighteen twenty eight simply because Andrew Jackson ran uh seeking vengeance um um his he and his supporters believed they had been deprived of uh the White house in two thousand twenty four um and much of his candida uh in the intervening four years was about removing john quercy Adams. The difference is that Andrew Jackson wasn't seeking vengeance against half the country.

He was seeking vengeance largely against one man and and and those around that one man um but he he certainly presented himself as a strong man though he wouldn't use the term dictatorship but he he he intended to make the present cy a much more powerful uh instrument institution that had had been he intended to veto thinks he did not agree and agree with he believes himself to be on the same levels of the supreme court and determining the constitutionally of american laws um but again, there is a big difference but first of all, we're not talking about national security state uh of the twenty first century where so the presidency the executive branch is a much weaker, smaller branch less pervasive in our life than now. And Andrew Jackson was not seeking vengeance against whole classes of people so we're we've had we've had sort of a vengeful, successful candidate. But I I think that the consequences in this era are enormous and much bigger than they were. And he did long ago, and he did .

have vents against native americans, know and wouldn't fulfill laws at the import. Even part declined to do so.

He declined IT, but he didn't run for office. This was a, this was an approach to people that he had before. No, his his particular treatment of native americans stands is one of the blots on our nation's history. Donald trump has made IT clear that he doesn't want any guard rails that, uh, he doesn't intend to have establishment republicans around him, he doesn't intend to have. And this was not used by him, but by others, any adults in the room to tell him what he cannot do. He's also made clear that he wants to use the instruments of the federal government to um heard his enemies we we are going to enter at least if he does what he says, he what is going to do another era of the enemies list, something we have not actually experience since the nineteen and seventies.

The Mandate some sort some kind of Mandate. So if we go back to our founding president, George washing could have easily become a monarch, as everybody knows. And here's about but instead he helped her, the first modern democracy. Talk about the opportunities washington had to consult the power around himself and how we reacted, the Linda, because he certainly had the ability to do so.

Oh, he had an an enormous ability. I mean, one of the real openings .

for his presence.

cy, was that the constitution is extraordinary, ily short, especially prior to our amendments. It's only IT was only about four thousand words. And article two, which controlled the executive branch, was very, very short. And I think partly that was by design, the delegates at the constitutional convention didn't really want to talk about the presidency with washington in the room that would have been extremely uncomfortable. And they also trusted him to make good decisions to establish precedents that would be wise and cautious for his successors.

And I think they also understood that a certain amount of vagues and silence was required in order to give flexibility to people once they were in office, to meet the chAllenges that could not yet possibly be foreseen. So much of the presidency wasn't defined, and instead washington had to figure out how he interacted with other branches of government, how he interacted with citizens, how he was supposed to govern in a crisis, whether IT be a foreign crisis or domestic interaction. All of those things are not really articulated in the constitution and very little legislation.

And who were his intellectual and moral forces? What were the thinkers who molded .

him while he was largely self taught? He had had a little bit of schooley, but he was largely self taught, and he did so by buying books throughout his entire life. So he read most of the enlightenment tracks.

But I wouldn't necessarily think of him as an enlightenment man like I would Thomas jefferson, for example. Instead, I think he was largely shaped by his own experiences and his failures as a Younger man on his successes during the revolution. And he brought that experience into his presidency with an understanding that he did not have all the answers and that he had real weaknesses, and there were things he didn't know.

And so as a result, he surrounded himself with people who had different types of expertise and knowledge, and he listened to them. And so we're talking about people like ogs, inter, hamilton and Thomas fern and Henry knocks and and man Randolph were his first administration, but he was also close with john jay, who was the first chief justice of the supreme court. And so he was actively seeking out as much information as possible to try inform this office in a responsible fashion.

Or at the first for Richard niche, believe that jf, can the democrats had stole the election from him in one thousand nine hundred and sixty? I just really Chris wells and looks like he made you have. So when he became president, IT was time to run for real election in one thousand nine seventy two.

He was happy to play dirty tricks in order to win. And and IT was his procurement. Anyway, talk about those two elections, one thousand sixty and seventy two.

Both were problematic for different reasons. How do you look at them? And are they speed bombs on the road to democracy? Or they signs our system wasn't as strong as think.

Well, in one thousand nine hundred and sixty, john Kennedy was taking a risk. The risk was whether the american people were ready to break the that errors glass ceiling, which was to elected a catholic to the presidency. And IT was a tough election for him in many in many ways the catholic issue weight on him he he lost a lot of votes for religious reasons. Um and yes, we will never quite know with certainty um the sani gans in texas and the extent to which democratic efforts in chicago counterbaLanced republic and efforts in the south of the of the state. But what I think is important to understand about sixty um is that there was a glass ceiling to break and and IT made that election much closer.

Nick's dirty tricks of the seventy two campaign were prefigured in his dirty tricks against his opponents starting in one thousand hundred and seventy one um and in many ways were prefigured in the dirty trick that he authored in thousand nine hundred and sixty eight to try to undermine the negotiations between the Johnson administration and north IoT nam as a way to make the vietnam more as sAiling IT as possible in the election and in a not exactly the same because I didn't involve covered actions in this case but the wine which Donald trump undermine the possibility of some kind of legislation regarding the border nicks on, did not want the vietnam's situation to appear to be on the road to resolution in sixty eight because that was the strongest the issue against at that point his opponent, vice president hubert humpy. What I wanted to to mention about sixty um that I think is is so important is that even though Kennedy's Victory was narrow and even though Kennedy himself didn't feel he had a Mandate, which is one of the reasons why he nominated so many republicans for his cabinet and for his inner circle, A A whole generation of Young americans began to see him as the personification of the White house and john Kennedy would go to shape the way in which people ran for the White house and this this was something that um that became a huge chip on Richard nicks on shoulder. Richard nixon was not only angry because he felt that the nicks, that the Kennedy money and the Kennedy um allies had deprived him a Victory but there was something about the about the Kennedy Christmas that had free space in his brain.

Um and a lot of the nixy ministration, a lot of nixon own turmoil, inner turmoil, can be explained as this inner debate between him self and the dead. John eph Kennedy, he never got over that right. So getting back to down .

the trumpet in two thousand and nineteen he tried to bully, present and and give ukrainy to announcing investigation to his rival jobim after he lost the twenty twenty election. Is everything you could to steal, including coin the sectors state and georgia and pressure room to commit fraud and then sending a mod to attack the capital in general. I do blame him if even if you don't um how difficult is the idea of free and fair elections with trump in the over office? I think people are worried about that today already learned about bert said let's do a third term Linda .

and then tim well, I think that we we have the infrastructure place to have free and fair elections because we have been having unbelievably free and fair elections. However, the part of this that we don't know, that unprecedented, is that a lot of this stuff just isn't tested. A lot of the things that trump could potentially do kind of requires the honor system.

So for example, the interaction act gives the president enormous a way to call up the military to use in a domestic, an, a domestic scene. And so we don't know if in four years he would call up the military under sunflowers pretence. And that could be chAllenged in court.

But that takes a really long time, and we don't know how IT would go. And so our infrastructure is great. It's just this question that so much of our system.

especially the presidents, what he could do and he always he's .

a violator of norms, absolutely. And he's a reminder, I think, how much of IT does require someone who's generally acting in good faith.

good faith. Uh tim.

briefly um my great concern um is that trump feels he was not successful at reshaping the presidency in his first term and that um so many of our most of our presidents in fact until trump let the office shape them to some degree of course they wanted to stamp IT with their imprint um I ice and how I wanted to make sure the floors were full of of clay Marks from his golf shoes but they didn't ignore the norms of the office they learned them and trump t ignored them and he is making clear has made cleared us that that he will define the interest of the the united states and that the office will be a means by which to achieve those personal interest and john bolton in his memory rs IT makes clear that um IT wasn't just once IT wasn't just the silence sky call IT IT was trumps approached to foreign policy in general that IT whatever was good for him and good for the trump business was by definition good for amErica that is completely unique in our history and in terms of the threat to our constitution. Um we have to keep in mind that we still have institutions and the U S. Military um hasn't been tested in this way um but but we have to keep in mind that there are many people with decades of training in the military and IT would be very hard for trump to remove all of them and there they are lessons what they have learned is that the military does not play a domestic police role and that the military respects the constitution because they're oldest to the constitution is not to any president so that would be severely tested.

We ll be back in a minute.

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Let's talk about wanna authoritarians. Let's talk about democratic norms around that washing. Certainly, as we know, he could have been an authority.

If we want to, trump may become one. This summits from court decided the president are essentially immune from prosecution. For official excEllency, you've written about how washington used the cabinet to strengthen a weak executive branch. How do you think washing racks to a scotish ruling in the massive increase an executive power since he was president?

Well, I think generally, if someone has to you, the founder thought that that is a red, that whatever they are going to say next is full crack, because the founders rarely agreed on anything, with perhaps one exception. And that was, we were not to have a king. There is not supposed to be making.

The president is supposed to be accountable to the law. The president, once they leave, this is a citizen just like anyone else. And so while usually i'm sort of load to predict what they would think, I can be pretty confident that they would be horrified at the notion that a president would not be held accountable for their actions or would retain some sort of immune status once .

they stepped down. Okay, so authorities s by definition, tried to consult power, the military, the media, ea. Nex police abuse the executive office for some personal game, by the way, sometimes for unbelieved ly petty reasons.

Tim walk us through some of his more agreeable abuses of parameter was able to get away with them. And after water gate there, a number of reforms passed to place Gabriel on the executive branch. What were the consequential ones and are they still effective today?

Um Richard nickson wanted to do much more damage um than he was able to get away with. Let me give you some examples. Richard nixon um had an intense fear of jewish americans and believe that there was a conspiracy of jewish americans in the federal government and he ordered the removal of jewish americans from any position of great sensitivity in the U.

S. Government on tape IT didn't happen and he was surrounded by some ety smos but but there was a limit to what they were willing to do to bit basically undermine the us. government.

And so they satisfied him by moving around some jewish americans in an obscure part of the labor department. But that was a part of the labor department that is still, by the way, not the same people course, but the still the source of our monthly unemployment figures, which are politically sensitive. They were then, they are now.

Nixon wanted to do more, but then he moved on. One of the things about nixon is that he um he would vent um and sometimes he would go away and he would not follow up and wants something done again. In another case, he he would keep pushing and there was a team around him that understood they could not implement everything that he ordered on a tax issue.

Um he vented and wanted to go after prominent democrats and prominent opponents of the war and fortunately for the country, the republicans in the the treasury department in the irs wouldn't do IT but they had to stand up to nixon and they were able to do IT because the secretary of the treasury, George schulz tz wouldn't let his people odd at the three or four hundred names that were given to them by the White house. Mixon got upset, but in the end decided IT was too much of a problem for him to fire. George shouts, and then he got absorb ba by border again.

So we were lying in that regard of the kindness of of these people more than .

the kindness were relying on the fact that they were actually american patriots and following the law.

right? So tempo of a team of sick fi and ready to as wms every .

that's my concern. And my great concern is that we not only have a present who's promised us that he will build that kind of a system, but but he now has a supreme court that has just recognized the fact that there's presumptive immunity for official acts and asking the IOS to look into some boy's taxes could be viewed as as an official act to the present could say, well, I just thought they might be cheating on the test.

There might be no evidence of that. But my great concern in this next trump administration, IT, will be these abuses of power that nixon did wanted to do on a grand scale, but did IT on a small scale because of god rails. And without those guard rails, the president has enormous power to do damage. So in twenty twenty.

trump told general mark Miller, who was chairman of the joint cheese of safe, to just shoot anti races and protection to crack their skills and beat the fuck out of them. Luckily for the country mile did not comply. In october, trump said this terrible thing during an interview with mario barter rama, who was perfectly awful herself. Let's hear IT.

I think the bigger problem is the enemy from within. We have some very good people. We have some sick people, radical left lunatics, and I think they are a bit, and I should be very easily handled by, if necessary by national god, or of really necessary by the military, that because they can let that happen .

and put trumps calls for turning the military inst american sizes to historical context for us. Washington doubt with a whisky rebellion in the seventeen nineties when he mobilize american troops against americans to mother and insurgency. And hamilton was quite involved with that. How does that compared to what we saw in twenty twenty?

So there are attacks, congress of pasta and a wiki exercise tax a couple of years previous, and there had been a number of protests, and then they became violent. A house was burned down that belonged to a federal tax collector, and shots works changed. There was an act that was passed in seventeen ninety two, which gave the president the right to call up local militias if congress was out of session.

Because congress was out of session most of the year, they were never around when anything interesting happened. And IT took a really long time to get them back into session. So if there was an emergency, the president could submit evidence that immediate action was required to a supreme court justice for approval.

Now washington did try a number of peaceful methods to get this, this violent protest to disperse. That didn't work. He then called up the militia and sent ted out.

He actually turned around, which was really important because he didn't want to be seen as arresting his own citizens. Most of the protesters, the cases against them, were dismissed that were convicted. He pardoned because IT wasn't actually about the punishment.

IT was about proving that here the world government had the right yet to actually pass attacks. I think what's really important is, over the course of american history, the military has at times been used in ways we would be uncomfortable with, especially in the south, to enforce slave codes, especially in the wake of slave uprising. So it's not like we have a perfect history here.

We don't. However, what strikes me about trump's language in that particular instance is not necessarily the military park, although that is quite important. It's the enemy within.

It's drawing a distinction of of american people who deserve to be punished by the military. And that is language that I know a lot of the other historians you've had on have demonstrated. That is a language that authoritarian ans use as part of their playbook.

right? So I also turns often times willing to use vaLance to maintain a grip on power. In one thousand and seven, and nickem was battling growing anti war, some and may of that year, he responded to a huge protests with ten thousand federal troops.

And the largest mater rest is history. A fake bomb was found under a bridge and nick use, he wish ed IT would have been real, because IT would have allowed him to respond even more forcefully. What was the nicks on stance on using state force against american city ever seriously considered turning military against fellow citizens?

Yes, he he did in fact um on the tapes he ordered um the use of violence against the native americans at wounded ney again is yet another nixon order that was not follow through by his people.

At one point the secretary of defense was ordered to um to attack these planes that were full of hostages in Jordan to end stand off with the people's liberation from for palestine pfp and the secretary defensive didn't do IT um I want to mention uh that um nixon frustration with um the guard rails around him were one of the reasons why he created an investigative unit the plumbers in the in the White house but um he also um okay the the payment to the teamsters to a go out and break the bones of american antiwar demonstrators they didn't they didn't use the I as military they found another way of of using violence so nicks on certainly not only conceived of the use of violence as appropriate, but in some cases used IT smaller scale. But IT showed his to do that. But one thing about nickson that isn't truth about about a trump nixon at shame, nicks on wanted to be remembered as a great president.

Nixon did not want to be remembered as someone who had violated presentiment norms. He cared about them. He just wanted to do IT secretly IT had to be done covertly. Donald trump, we have someone who has no shame, excess and doesn't care about presidential norms.

He first all, he doesn't know the history of the office, despite the fact having occupied that, he doesn't care, which means that a major problem, because there are no cell strains. Nixon, for all of his greatest behavior, his criminal x, his abuse of power, still had a sense that there were red lines, at least that he didn't wish across overtly. Donald trump knows no such red lines, right? So lazy.

One of our greatest miss is a story of George washington is Sherry re. Supposed IT in a ability of life, of course, is a math, but where american politicians generally more truthful during his year and around that time? Or is that an increasing level of dishonesty?

No, I mean that they got up to all sorts of no good, and they would print just outrageous lies in the newspaper. In fact, know what I think is different about our news media ecosystem today is, at the time they had very intensely partisan newspapers. There were the democratic republican papers and the federal wpp ers.

The difference is that people understood that. They understood that they were reading a partisan production. They didn't have this idea that people on their television or people that are printing things online, we're acting with the same sort of incentives as a walter cki.

So it's actually like a media literacy problem that I think that we have today. That compares to the seventy nine years because they were happy to just print garbage in the newspapers. But I went to pick up on that shame piece that, that tim mentioned because I think that, that is actually a really important shift.

It's not just that the. And has to have shame is that our society has to have sort of an embrace of shame and a certain standard of decorum, norms and precedents that we all buy into, because otherwise, elections don't work as an accountability mechanism if we are not willing to enforce those things. And so certainly, the norms and expectations about social behavior were different in the seventy ninety, but there were still an agreed upon set of social behavior. And that has evolved over time. What's different now is we seem to have lost the ability .

to enforce for just i'm going to ask special questions actually authority italians create al turn to reality. Their followers in trumps case is part of strategy called gush gala at Steve banning calls that flood the zone was shit. Trump also has an elan.

Musk spread propaganda widely and lies on x, the social media problems of abandoned content moderation so they're just willing enabled lers are not so active as musk, but it's easy never to sprint. Conspiracy y there is nick on was an infamous liar. Give us some historical context for this seemingly unending stream of untruth.

Well, the interesting thing about about the the two areas of lying is that nicks on lying was tethered to some kind of reality. Nixon did not attempt to create a completely alternative reality. Trump is inventing, complete a history.

Andrea amid, for example, give a famous one not as important as some of the other examples, but but when he talked about inflation, saying that that inflation underbidding the worst inflation we had ever had. That is, of course, of her nonsense. Ince, when we had the inflation, huge, much worse inflation in the seventies, when he talked about afghanistan, they would pull out of afghanistan, which I think was a debacle le for the bunk by initiate.

But he describes as the most embarrassing event for amErica in its history, that other nonsense, but lz and I and you two kerick come up with many more examples of much were embarrassing them. So this is something that that nixon had too much self respect as a debater and is a policy intellectual to ever do. Um what he would do is nick s the seat was calculated to protect himself um so the public didn't know him.

Trump's deceit is part of how the public knows him. And as linsey said, we are in an era now where the public doesn't mind embracing someone. I'm going about half the public, but enough race in self and they know is lying.

And the one the one thing I would have, but I just wanted to add quickly, was the shame issue isn't just important in elections. It's important and impeachments. And the assumption was that, that members, the first of the wouldn't be political parties, lindy, know this way Better than I do.

But the founders didn't. Our framers didn't expect that, but more importantly, they thought that each member of congress would feel shame if they didn't defend the constitution. And we live in an era now where the shame is if you don't defend the president of your party, right? And that vitiates neutralizes completely the sanction of impeachment or removal.

We will be back in a minute.

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All right. So every episode we have a question from an outside expert um let's hear the one for you .

guys hi it's Billy dear. I'm the author of beyond the big lie, a new book about lying in politics. I'm also a professor of journalism at duke university. Given each of your backgrounds, i'm curious if George washington and Richard nixon were to meet for a beer today, what would each of them say about the state of lying in politics?

Go ahead. First you, linsey, and then tim.

I think George washington specifically would be horrified by IT because while his supporters often engaged in lies on his behalf, he really actually tried to stay above that partisan fray. And so he would feel that IT was a significant decline in our political culture.

I think Richard nickson would consider Donald trump and unintelligent man, but a very clever man, and would be envious of the media ecosystem in which trump lives. Richard nixon felt that IT was way too difficult for him to spin his reality, and he felt that the media, that there was no fox news, and he desperately wanted, in fact, some of his followers ultimately created the alternative media environment in which down trump has been so successful authorities is also tried to encourage .

a culture personality around them in trump inspires the almost religious devotion among his devotes um what does he do to create that reaction of the other american presence were able to provoke such rabid loyalty among their followers.

Well, there certainly have been present who have been enormously popular. fd. r.

Was enormously popular. Regan was enormously popular. And washington to a certainly son. I wouldn't necessarily call IT a cult, but he was seen as the father of the nation and sort of put on his petition that was separate.

What I think trump does is that he has convinced a lot of people that whatever they are seen isn't happening. What he says is what is happening. And so and IT IT starts to become a fulfilling prophecies. If they reject the things that they previously believed, then that is a very uncomfortable feeling. And so it's almost like a sun cost false, where you can't acknowledge you are wrong and you have to continue to lean all in to this process.

So nickson was also insecure man, but he wasn't loved by the public. But he retained support about one in four americans, even after all the water gate revelations came out, and he was very unclear. Thematic, but how do they hold on to so many supporters? And what does that tell us about trump s grip on his supporters psyches?

Well, nickson would love to have trump grip on his supporters. Two quick things. One, nixon didn't have coaches. There were very few members of the republican party who told their position to him.

And and so he he did not have followers in the washington ite to the extent that trumpet us because let's keep in mind, the washington at is partly created by trump. The second thing is that um americans, while there were many that revealed nixon, he was not beloved even by his own supporters, they respected him. And what happened was that respect dependent on his ability to govern well too.

They didn't love him as a man. And so once he began to lie to americans, he undermined some of his own appeal to his base. So his base shrank. Trust base never string to the extent that nick on did after water gate. One of the reasons why we had such a corrective moment is that not only at the washington elite reject nixon, including of course, republicans, but the american people sought a Better government and and both general ford and Jimmy Carter had public support for the new guard rails that congress created because of nicks on. So there wasn't that emotional attachment to nixon that trump has engendered. And for that reason, the country, I would think, did not have the corrective moment, with the exception of one law regarding electrical counting, did not have the corrective moment after the first trump term that we saw the seventies, after uh both water gate and vietnam, um less to this effort to try to restrain the imperial presidency.

And so right now, and there was also forgiveness after and Johnson this election in as grand, he pardoned the confederate leaders and journals who are meant to stand trial for treason after nicks on resign, president joe ford pardon him, much to his detriment. Trump is going essentially party himself when he fires jack smith. He's pledged to go after political opponents.

A lot of people think he's bluffing, but we'll have to wait and see. I don't think he's blushing. Um is there any other example of this of a president using his paris of scope arrivals nicks and obviously tried IT a relative failure in that regard, but not a total failure. Is there anyone else you can think of who is .

done this to a very small extent? I mean, you know, jeffson, when he was president, he hated iron burr because iron berhad not stepped aside once the election was tied in eighteen hundred. He really didn't like some of the federalist supreme court justices so he sort of encouraged and impeachment and then sort of encourage people to pursue charges against bar for his conspiracy out west .

but also him exactly .

but he wasn't um IT IT wasn't an explicit you need to put this persons in jail because there are my enemy IT was they had done something that was appeared to be wrong and he encouraged the prosecution of IT but notably, he failed. He failed in both cases because the institutions and the other people around him felt that the rule of law was more important than this one data.

two questions for both of you. In a farewell address, washing said that quote, sooner later, the chief of some prevAiling faction would manipulate the public emotions and their partisan lawyers is to quote the purposes of his own elevation on the ruins of public liberty at some loses. If trump, or someone like, and was inevitable in washington, new that the political system he helped create had vulnerabilities that could be exploited by a leader, really a grifter who puts himself above the interest of the country, is IT capable of handling the stresses that now faces under trump. First lancy and then tim.

I I don't think we know. I mean, IT IT was the first time, but you know, I think the best way to think of guard rails is like a car. If you get into accident and your airbags deploy, then they've saved you.

You might be Bruce and battered, but then the car is totally and you have to have IT fixed and it's not going to be able to save you in the same way. And I think our guard rules have been boost and battered or the airbags have been deployed. And so i'm not sure. I mean, what's notable after the nixon moment is that congress did take action and did implement reforms, and we have seen very few of them in the last four years. And I fear that we are going .

to come to regret that too. I great agree with lines and we one of the great concerns I have is what a generation of Young americans is learning about a power and responsibility and the the fact the trump could come back after january six and his other abuses in the first term is signaling to many that that is a not only A A useful and effective approach to leadership, but it's a good approach to leadership because it's been there.

It's now been sort of embraced by enough of the country. To my mind, those are the norms that I worry most about john eph Kennedy created with all these flaws um a an ideal of how one should run for office and how one should act in office again, they didn't know fully what he was up to an office. I believe that IT is possible.

The dawn trump will become that ideal for an entire generation of Young americans were striving for power. And that, to me, is what could undermine our institutions. Because IT takes more than just eight years to destroy institutions. But a generation can destroy institutions.

absolutely. So that that brings me I last question. Ever since trump, one in two thousands of seen people have debated whether is a symptom or cause of the fear, division, anger, racism in zao bia, we see almost every day during his campaign was a dark vision of america, which in it's been in our veins forever.

Let's be clear. Let's not. He's not a new thing. Where did you come down, linsey?

And then tim finished. I think that he let IT come out of the shadows. He made IT permissible to speak a lot of these things out loud. And that has therefore accelerated the growth and um the experience of this wide .

fire of he too .

I think of lady break now in the importance of being earnest to and in this case i'm partha asy but in much persecuted, much persecuted yes, to elect trump once um is misfortune to the electric is carelessness. I think that this is on the american people and I believe the world is looking at this now the times that they said all that trumping trump, I think a lot of the world and a lot of many americans are signal that's amErica being america.

I think we need to come to terms with things in the next little while that um we haven't come to terms with one, the effect of inequality on this country which is produced populism that is both on the right in the left to the real deep effects of the pandemic and three are the very fact, the consequences of technological change on feeling of hope and despair in rural areas plus those deep dark impulses of race, racism, zennor phobia and bigotry that have been in our country from the beginning and we've been wrestling with a big but and from the beginning, and they have occasionally won out against start Better Angels. This is not a good moment for our Better Angels, but just like those dark impulses have all always existed. So too have our Better Angels. And so that is the struggle in front of us right now.

I will end on one last thing, and a hopeful things I think going to do that is my broadcast. Each of you, what? What you should opponents of all of this do in in a sense or two, each of you, tim, and then lenzing.

One of the most effective ways that authority ans take power is by scaring people. Australians, even the worst of them, don't necessary like to outlaw action. What they want to do is make you so afraid of consequences that you outlaw yourself.

We saw a little of that already um with for example, little small example of Jerry ford foundation not giving less chaining in award for fear that they might lose in a trump administration there five or once three three exemption and jack basis at washing washing post it's itself frustration I would argue that remember your your civil rights exercised your civil rights. Be who you wanted to be, who you want to be now, who you wanted to be before trump. Don't let trump standing your way of enjoying the full benefits of the constitution of enough people.

Do that and don't lose hope. IT gets harder for the authority. An and I believe trump is lazy. I believe that trump actually, at times, would rather not take risks. So if if people make IT hard for him to abuse power, um IT IT would lessen the effect of his vengeance.

The word you're looking for is no, yes, no. You may not then see last word why agree .

with some much of what tim said? I think also there are still ways that even if trump can't always be held accountable of the people around him can be whether IT is through the rule of law, through our court system, through public accountability and we have to continue to try and use every mechanism of accountability possible um which is I think the legal side of the public side of the don't you know, obey in advance but the best and most long lasting way to combat authoritarians m is through accountability and so we just have to keep trying because the most pernicious ous thing will be if we do give up, hope so we cannot give up and we have to keep trying to hold people to account.

That's perfect. And the word you're looking for is, oh, no, you didn't .

something like .

that anyway. Thank you so much. exactly. The people I wanted talk to on a day like today, we have had a long history, and we've gone through some difficult times over the many, many centuries we've been around.

So let's have some hope. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Thank you.

ARM with terrace wish er is produced by Christian castro resell kerry yoga, jolene Myers, Megan burne and Colin lynes. The shot kwa is box media's executive producer of audio special banks to kate gallagher and clare hyman d. Our engineers are rickon and fernando aruba, and our thi music is by track.

Demi s, if you ready for in the show, i'll tell you I just saw the movie wicked and IT comes out on november twenty second. I urge you all to see IT, and it's time to try defying gravity and don't let them bring you down, if not yet were the wicked which but we look fantastic in Green. Thanks for listening to on with Carry swish er from new york magazine. The vox media podcast network and us will be back on monday with more.