Sarah Paulson
02:05:18 Share

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Lily Padman. Hi. We have a big time party on today. Sarah Party Paulson. Most people don't know that's her middle name.

Sarah Pardee Paulson. She's so fun. She's outrageously fun. She's an Emmy and Tony award-winning actor. American Horror Story, Ratchet, my favorite. Ocean's 8, 12 Years a Slave. American Crime Story and a new movie out right now on Hulu. Hold your breath about the horrific horror.

Oklahoma dust storms that came in the 30s. Also, recently I saw she was somewhere and she was wearing the row. Was she on the day? You guys were really geeky now about your outfits. Gosh.

Was she wearing the robe on that day? I don't remember what she was wearing that day. Okay. But she was on my Instagram. She's got style. Yeah, she does. And a ton of personality. She was leaving that day, like leaving the next day to go to Milan for Fashion Week. I was so jealous. Oh, my Paulson. Sarah Party Paulson. Please enjoy Sarah Paulson.

We are supported by Audible. We know you love audio content. Thanks for listening to the show. But if your ears are craving more audio, Audible is the place to go. I probably, in truth, spend more time on Audible than any other place. Any other app? Yeah, I'm listening every night for an hour before bed.

There's more to imagine when you listen. Whether you're searching for the latest bestsellers and new releases, or you want to catch up on a classic title, you can find it all in the Audible app. And as an Audible member, you choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog. What are you listening to now? Well, I'm just finishing The Worlds I See Now.

by Fei-Fei Li. It's so good and moving and I love it so much. I'm sad it's ending. Now, listen, new members can try Audible for free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash DAX or text DAX to 500-500. That's audible.com slash DAX or text DAX to 500-500.

We are supported by Macy's. You all know I didn't grow up going to fancy designer stores. I grew up going to the mall, wandering the aisles of department stores looking for that next cool t-shirt or pair of shoes. And Macy's was always my favorite one. I have such fond memories of Macy's in the mall.

It's just endless opportunity when you walk in. Yeah, you can get anything. Ah, I love it. We all know Macy's for their huge selection of apparel, home goods, and more at affordable prices. But what I didn't know until now is that Macy's is committed to helping small businesses find their footing in the retail space.

If you're a small business owner who's ready to take the next step towards growth, you can apply to Workshop at Macy's, the retail industry's longest-running accelerator. This program gives participants the chance to connect with industry experts and gain valuable tips, tools, and resources to help elevate their brands. For more information and to apply for a spot in the workshop at Macy's Class of 2025, head to theworkshopatmacy's.com. And whether or not you have a small business,

Shop fall deals now at Macy's.com. Sound of those feet. Bounding up the stairs. He's late. He's late. He's bounding. I had to bound.

I sometimes have a good excuse and sometimes I have a really bad. This is the worst excuse. We started so many conversations. We did. We had a bunch of conversations. We have already so many pins. Did you earmark them all? Yeah, we did. I didn't. I leave that up to you because guess what my job is? Nothing. Just to sit here and... Yeah. It's nice, right? I really am very into your particular armchair. Do you want to try it? You would really blend in because you're in blue and it would just... I worry that I would never get up. I think you would. Let's do it. Okay, let's try it. Hold on. Okay.

You're having a hip issue? Oh my God, look at this. What if we reversed order today? We did this with David. I feel like Edith Ann. I'm like, my babe. Yeah, David Harbour. My babe is Edith Ann and I feel like I'm like this. A little girl. A little girl. Hi. You said you start from the outside in for your characters. I do now. I didn't used to. You could even extend that out beyond your outfit into your chair you sit in.

You could start with a prop this time. I just like how willing you were to give it to me. You're like, you want to try it? I have a lot of respect for you. I don't know if you know this. We're 15 days apart. Wow.

Really? I was born January 2nd. January 2nd. I'm December 17th. So you're 1975 though. Yes. Yeah, I'm 74. My father was very upset by that. Oh, this is fun. Now I get to look at Monica sometimes. This is so weird. You don't like it. We can go back. Let's go back. No, I kind of like it. I don't like it because I don't really get to see Sarah back. Okay, we got to go back. We're going to go back. I was willing to do it this way though. I do have needs. We're changing it up. And I'm learning how to speak them. That's super flexible, Monica. No.

Rigid, rigid, rigid. Rigidity, rigidity. I will own that. She's not rigid like frigid or what would the bad words we'd use. They're generally misogynistic, I think. Is there a man we could call frigid? We would call him fastidious. Wow, that's a good word, though. That's a good SAT word.

Fastidious. It's also good for the alliteration. Fastidious. Can I own how embarrassing it is why I'm late? Yes. So I have plenty of time. It was so nice that you were two today. And I know there was confusion whether you were 11 or two. It wasn't my confusion, but here I am. Drove all the way back. It was great for me. To throw everyone else under the bus, it wasn't our confusion. No, it was someone named Adrian. Adrian fucked up, guys. Yeah, don't worry. Sorry, Adrian. Dear Adrian, I want you to know...

This was really hard. I write to you on the other side of a ruined day. A day I could not get back, Adrienne. You don't know what I planned because I am rigid. Okay, so I was like, oh, it's so much time. So I watched your movie. I watched half in bed and then I watched half while working out. Then I made myself for the first time ever, I ground some elk. Excuse me? Yes, tons of protein. Wait a minute. Time out. I'm a non-meat eater. Oh, you are? I lost your mind. You ground elk.

Some elk, like little baby elk flesh? Or you mean an elk antler? I purchased it ground, processed. Ground elk. Yes. And it's got 88 grams of protein in a pound, which blew my mind. So it's my first time cooking elk. Everything's golden. I got some egg whites, some elk. I'm sitting and eating. My wife and her good friend, Anna, come in and we get engaged in a political conversation, which I tend to avoid. And they were really buying it.

They were like really into these points I was making. And then I literally started pontificating and lost track of time because I was drunk on the approval that was happening. So it's like maybe the worst reason ever to be late. But a very relatable reason. I can really relate to this. Can you? Yes. Anytime someone says anything nice to me...

I do kind of think, wow, I should sit in this space for a minute. Or if you're interested in my point of view, great. You're not going to get me upstairs to my armchair podcast. And I wanted to be here. It was none of that stuff. It just all of a sudden I looked up and I was like, oh, I've been pontificating for quite a while. This is embarrassing. I must run now. I, of course, want to know what points you were making. Same. But I'm also scared. But I am interested. Oh, yeah. It'd be bad. Oh, yeah.

Well, what's really fun is they're eating dogs, they're eating cats, they're eating the pets, right? This is insane. Right, this whole thing. And it's going around. It's a meme and people have made songs about it. And they were saying it. And I said, here's where I think the left doesn't get it a little bit. Of course, they're not eating dogs and cats.

But there are lots of people on the border of Texas, Arizona, where they look in their backyard and there's like 12 people moving through their backyard. They're very scared. They don't really care if it's dogs or cats. They're just going like, okay, so this guy understands. My comp was, if you live in LA, we have a relationship with the homeless that we wouldn't have if we didn't live here.

I think. And so if Trump gets on and says the homeless are eating dogs and cats, I'm like, they're not. But this guy's concerned about the thing that's around me nonstop. So we think because we have the factual point that.

That we've won, but we're failing to dig a little deeper and go, why does that crazy lie still appeal? What is the foundation? Why that's an appealing statement. I'm very afraid of all the people coming over the border. You know, that's what they're saying. So anyways, that was the conversation. That's interesting. I guess what I feel about it is my comp to this would be, but it's the same thing as only watching MSNBC or only watching Fox News. It's like you just want to be told the thing that will make you feel better.

like all the things we want to be told, seen, understood, heard. Part of a group of people who have a shared sense of whatever matters to you makes you feel like you belong somewhere. So that's your thing is saying maybe the left is focusing too much on the factual inaccuracy as opposed to what is the fundamental tether. Yeah, the knockout punch to comfort that side

Isn't to go, he got the fat wrong. So the whole thing's off the table. It should be more like, listen, we definitely need a labor market. We want to have people coming in. We want to have work visas. Obviously, we should not be letting people in that haven't applied. We shouldn't be allowing people to flood over the border. We should be acknowledging what the fear is. But Kamala and Biden have an incredibly conservative border policy right now. So it's also not about that. She's afraid to say what this great policy is. No, it's available. And so I hear you and I love that you do this.

Well, sometimes I like that you do it. You like it from afar. The subtextual story there felt a little bit like, I love that you do this, you great big idiot. It's not you great big idiot. I love that you did it over there is basically what I said. It's not you great big idiot. It's I love that you do this. I am exhausted by it, though I do appreciate it because it is really important for us to see everyone's perspectives on this. But I think a lot of them truly, and this isn't calling anyone dumb or

They do believe what he says and they do take it as truth. And that's the danger. If he just said they're coming over and it's really bad. But these specific lies about they're coming for our pets or there's never been more crowds in history. People don't leave my rallies. That's my bad, Donald Trump. I'm doing a Korean hand. Physical action. Yeah, they love it.

I can't do it. And I think that's been a blessing because I think if I could do him, I would do it all the time. And we would have a very political show and I don't want a political show. I just can't do it. Yeah, because he can't help himself if he has one in the tank. You'll hear Arnold probably maybe today. Well, I'm going to make this more about Sarah. Okay. Well, I'm going to try. You don't have to. Unless you've ever wanted to have a conversation with Arnold Schwarzenegger. No, but I mean, I could have a conversation as Holly Hunter with you.

That's kind of great. It's great. I'm going to join you with this guy because he likes to talk a little bit like, he's like the male Holly Hunter because he's got a little whistle too. Oh, that's great. You sound just like him. You sound just like Holly Hunter. Oh my God, thank you. And I love Holly Hunter. I love her too. I love myself too.

I really do love Holly Hunter. I love Holly Hunter too. And I would like to see more of Holly Hunter out in the world doing her acting thing because I love it so much. Raising Arizona. Oh my God. Oh, don't get me a baby hat. You know, she's like, I need me a baby. I need it. I got a hand. I know.

I just love it. All babies are beautiful. You did her in Studio 60. I think I did. I was obsessed with that show. I think that's how I got the part because I did impressions. Yeah, but you were great on that show. Thanks. I think everybody auditioned for that. It was back in the day. I don't know if you remember this. By the way, it was called Studio 7 back then. And I remember when they moved it to Studio 60, we were like,

That's terrible. Studio 7 is so much better. Now when I think of Studio 7, I'm like, that sounds terrible. Yeah. I mean, it was the show that everybody wanted. Zorkin, first project for Perry Post Friends, first project for Bradley Whitford Post West Wing. It was Tommy Shlomi directing. I thought I was super set after I got that job. I'm sure you did. I really did. And guess what?

canceled after 22, maybe less than that. It was one season. I think we even had to give an episode. I'm going to say this. I don't know if I'll get sued for this, but who fucking cares? What if there is a department? At this point, the department's like, you cannot say this true thing that happened to you. You cannot say it. In order to get the back nine,

Remember that terminology? So just to let the listener in, they generally would order 13 out of the gates. If they liked your pilot, they'd either order six, which you might as well not even show up. You might as well not do it. Your mid-season replacement six episode, you're like, not a great start. The list is short of shows that started that way. And then more conventionally, they would do 13. And if it's going well, they'll add nine. I think Grey's Anatomy was a weird mid-season replacement. Oh, I think you're right.

Right. So sometimes it happens. But I remember we did our 13. And then in order to get the pickup for the back nine, because the show was so expensive at the time, we had to give back like an episode. And I basically did it for free. So you basically were like, pay me for 20. I'll do 21. I mean, you didn't suggest that. I sure didn't because I was not making what the other folks were making at that time. And I was like, I'll do anything just to keep it going.

Well, we all have these historic cases where a show found its audience in season two or three. So you cling on to these things. It's really true. Is that where you met Amanda? Amanda and I did a show called Jack and Jill. Loved Jack and Jill. That show, that's where we met.

That is where we met. Wow. Monica revealing her television taste. Can I tell you? Her early aughts. You're getting a very sparkly version of Monica for some reason today. Did you have a great day? No, I'm just so... Yeah, me too. I've been wanting you for so long. Should we start with that? Yeah. I find you like... I don't know if I thought you were real. What? Yeah. Yeah.

And I hope you take that as a huge compliment. I'm going to. Do you think Daniel Day-Lewis is real? I do actually know what you mean, but I don't know what you mean when you use my name and then you say Daniel Day-Lewis. I sort of am like, what the? And this isn't a shootout for number one. It's simply the man disappears in a way that I'm not sure he's a real man. And I don't know if I met him. I just don't know what I would do with it. I have to put you in that category, which I've seen so much of what you've done. And it's so all over the map.

So impressively so every time. I'm kind of like, I'm never going to cross paths with that unicorn, that little creature that's out there. You're one of those. It's an enigma. That is the biggest compliment in the world. Oh, good. Just because my dream, I mean, I make a joke all the time about how all I want is a peg leg and a black tooth. Yeah.

No offense to anyone with a peg leg or a black tooth. My point is, I want to do something always that is so outside of my own experience and existence. As an actor, I always wanted that, even when I was very young. But I never thought I'd get it. It was only because of the Ryan Murphy stuff and the

weird dovetail magical thing that happened. Doing a show like American Horror Story that was on for so many years and doing a different character every year, which sort of encouraged the audience to accept me in a new form every time. Oh, what are we going to see Evan Peters do this year? And what's Jessica Lange going to do? And who are we going to play? But for us, it was always just like going in the old ratty costumes prop closet and pulling out a nasty wig and a weird robe and being like, this is who I get to be this season. That little childhood actor part. Do you fear...

Everything. Yes. What if I just said do you fear? Well, the answer is yes. Okay, great. Do you fear? My next question is that you're human. The range is so outrageous. And a lot of them are kind of story driven. And I guess they lead you in ways. But do you have any fear that you'll run out of characters?

Yes, I do. Or what am I going to do that is going to be surprising for me and interesting for me and not have the audience be like, oh God, this bitch again. Look at her. Oh, she's got fake teeth in and she's wearing glasses where that becomes the expectation. Or if you did some people are like, that's Marsha Clark in a green wig. You wouldn't want to get caught

I wouldn't. That would be bad. Okay. You started in Tampa. Till five. You have a little sister. She's two years younger. Well, this is where my horrible math thing comes into play, which is we are Irish twins, essentially. But I can never remember if we're 17 or 19 months apart. She's born July of 76 and I'm December of 74. Is that 17 months? July. 76. There's a seven to five.

Five plus 12, 17. Okay. So we're 17 months apart. So she's my little sister. Yeah. Elizabeth. So under two years apart, I would say is key. And over a year apart. It's not crazy. So you're the older sibling. You're supposed to be a certain way. Do you think you are that way? I do. How many siblings do you have? I have an older brother and a younger sister. Oh, so you're middle. And then I have two little girls. So I'm watching that whole thing play out. And they are Irish twins as well. And I'm a firstborn. And are you the way you're supposed to be? Absolutely.

Remember earlier when we were talking about rigidness? Oh yeah, we were talking about rigidness. Yeah, rigidity. Yeah. I'm controlling. Uh-huh, good. I'm also, I think, the chosen one in my family. I got to take care of everyone, but also maybe this is a little bit off-brand for it, but I don't feel like I had particularly strict parents. My parents were 21 and 22 when they had me, so we're super, super young. So there was nothing strict about anything about my upbringing, but I do think they liked me best.

My sister will hear this. She's going to agree. I got away with a lot more than my sister did, funnily enough. But were you better at doing the bad behavior? My sister was much more honest and I was a big fat liar. She was really like, I want Coca-Cola for breakfast.

And I looked around and I was like, oh, everyone thought that was really cute, but also really like a childish thing to do. And I would look around and think the most impressive thing I could do would be to ask for a glass of milk. And so I would ask for the thing that would make them think I was super grown up. You counterpunched. I was doing a counterpunch and my sister was much more truthful. And I was constantly hypervigilant and really assessing like the bionic woman, like what would get me the most likes.

Ask for the grown-up thing. Play quietly by myself. My sister was the tugger. Mom, mom, mom, mom. And I remember looking at her being like, you're not going to get anything you want that way. So I would just be like reading a book in the corner. I was a big, big reader. But I remember reading and my sister just being like, mom, mom, mom. And my mom being like, shut up. And I thought if I don't do that, mom's going to ask me if I want to go shopping, which I did. There could be multiple inspirations.

with this approach because this was mine as well, even though I was middle. My brother wanted cool jeans and a certain bicycle and all this shit. My mom was broke and single mom. I had a single mom too. I'm curious. Part of it is like, yeah, I wanted lots of adoration. Yes. For sure. Can't get enough of it. Still can't. Meaning me. I'm not saying you. Hell,

version of actually worried about my mother me too she's overwhelmed this is too much i can't be the 18th thing on her plate so some codependency motivation as well you relate to that oh my god yeah because she was way the fucking overhead right she leaves with two little kids and goes to new york city not knowing anybody yeah she didn't know anybody why did she want to go there she wanted to be a writer she thought they only had typewriters in new york i think

Also, she could speak to this much more clearly than I could. But she grew up in a very conservative religious family. And my mom was just and is still a real free spirit and just felt totally straightjacketed living in that town. And it just was not for her. And so she at 27 years old packed me and my sister up and we went and moved to New York. And my mom was just doing that on her own and got a job at Sardi's and was a waitress there. It made me think of this. Have you ever worked with the first AD, David Sardi?

No, I have not. Oh, darn. Who the hell is David Sardi? David Sardi is the first AD. He was mine on a movie. Is he a Sardi? Yeah, yeah. So he grew up working in that kitchen and everything. Whoa, weird. Whoa. Do you know what Sardi's is? I've never heard of it. It's a total institution, right? I want to say he told me at one time how many meals they'll serve at a dinner service, but it's in the thousands.

It's a pre and post theater institution. It's like you either go to Sardi's before you go to the play. When you're doing a play, you're very pissed at everyone who went to Sardi's because they've all had two martinis and a big fat steak and they're sleeping and you're like, wake up. Thursday through Saturday, you're like, everyone went to Sardi's before they saw fucking Sardi's. Oh, wow. Or you go there post show.

I want to go to the movies. And get a little lit up. And you get a little lit up for that. And so one thing we're earmarking, we're not paying off yet. One of the things Sardi's is famous for is they have cartoon characters. They do have all this sort of Broadway performance. Broadway legends. And there's a famous wall with the characters of them. Okay, so just know that that's what happens at Sardi's. Okay, so your mother lands you guys in, I guess, well, you go to Maine for a second, but then you go to Queens and then you go to Brooklyn. We were in Brooklyn first. We moved so, so, so much, which...

It was not easy. And at the same time, I think has really steadied me and readied me for the work I do. I'm always a person who's like, I'm going to go home after work, even if I'm in Winnipeg. And people are like, you're going home or to the hotel? And I was like, oh yeah, wherever I am, I need to call it that. It feels like that to me wherever I am. Do you take any home goods? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you decorate? I don't. I just am sort of like wherever the...

That is, I feel like it's a consequence of moving. Who knows? It might be a little bit like Stockholm syndrome. It just was like, this is what feels familiar. And so doing this feels better than looking at the same wall over and over and over again. Because then I start to feel like time has stopped. And that's another kind of terror. Do you feel that in relationships, like commitments? I've always been in a committed relationship.

I've so rarely been single. Wow. I had one chunk of like a five-year period and that was really the longest I went. This leads to our pin. Yeah, this is our pin pre you showing up. Back when I was pontificating. Back when you were pontificating in your kitchen with your wife and her friend. Weirdly, which is a ding, ding, ding, because we were talking about pets and dogs and cats. Oh my God.

What if a person takes this? Yeah, there's a softer one behind you, though. Yeah, but both are available. I'm just like a cold person. I'm a hot person. Well, obviously, because it's freezing in here. No big deal. Totally fine. I was in here first, freezing cold before you got here. We had Jeff Bridges in here. Literally, besides Gene Hackman, my favorite actor of all time.

Will we put Paul Newman in there? I like Paul Newman, but for me, it's Gene Hackman and Jeff Bridges are the men. And Alan Rickman make me bonkers mental. Those are great picks. I applaud those. But he got here, it was during the heat wave, and we didn't turn the air on early enough. It probably went on an hour before he got here, and he got in here and he goes, oh, it's warm. Is it going to get cooler? Ha ha!

And I go, yeah, it's going to get cooler. And it did not get cooler. And I think it probably got harder. And I was just watching. I'm like, I'm going to kill Jeff Bridges. You can't do that. Nothing can kill Jeff Bridges. Okay, so back to mom. She first goes to Brooklyn. We moved to Maine because my grandparents did the weird backwards thing of, you know, you normally live in Maine and you go to Florida to live out your... Snowbird. So my grandparents did the opposite. My grandmother was born in Mobile, Alabama. My grandfather in Florida. And then they started summering the way people, I mean, people use the word summer.

Yeah. I'm summering. It's like, what? It is summer. I don't know what summering is. Yeah, who said summer's a verb? Yeah, summer is a verb. But they would go to Maine for the summer. And then they decided to move there. And so my mom decided to move there for a year. She didn't know what to do. She had a breakup. We went and we lived with my grandparents and we got our own place and we lived there for a year and then moved back. Then I moved back to Florida to live with my dad. This is a terrible schedule for you.

At least as is printed, you would go in the summers to see that, which makes sense scholastically. But really, really unpleasant from a physical standpoint. All blessings to Florida, but fucking hell on earth. And also when you're supposed to be like hanging with your friends and stuff. I know. It was always a little bit of a thing. My mom had us all during the year. She needed a fucking break. She needed a fucking break. And then we would go there. She needed to hook up with some of the dudes at Sardi's on the waitstaff, right? Correct.

That's a wild group. It's a wild group. My mom was the only person who worked at Sardi's who had kids at that time. Did she date? Were there any stepdads? Oh my God. It's okay. That's really not a big deal. It was kind of cute the way it felt. It's water. Water over all of the electrical devices. Guys, guys. That's way worse. I'm just going to sit here. That is not an absorbent cloth, but you can, it's like a shawl. Yeah.

Did you see how I didn't jump up? Everybody's cleaning. I'm just going to narrate it. Oh, you're taking the mic away from me. People want to hear about this. There is a sparkly, bubbling lime beverage on the floor. Of course it happened when we were talking about stepdads. I know. Interesting. You're like talking about my mom's sex life. And I was like, asking my mom was dating. I was like, pardon?

Pardon me while I spill everything immediately and then I don't have to answer this question. Anyway, my mom had some boyfriends. Poor mom. Hi, mom. If you hear this, I apologize in advance. But my mom was a single lady. She was 27 years old. Like, I can't imagine. So she had some boyfriends, some of whom I didn't like. And she had one very serious boyfriend who I really liked. He was around for a while, but then he went away too. And then that was hard.

I don't think you can win. You either like them and then they go away or you hate them like I did and they go away. Right. And they don't go away fast enough. I mean, I wanted my mom to be with someone and it's not like I was pining for her and my father to be back together. I didn't really have that. And they both trash talked each other so much to us. That was a

bad thing because my dad was always making fun of my mom and my mom was always saying dad wasn't playing the child support. And so it was always this thing where my sister and I were like, are we supposed to not like dad? Because we really love going there in the summer. And my dad was very successful. And so he had this fancy-ish life that we felt was really glamorous and, you know, the swimming pool that we got to go in and ice cream cones. VHS recorder. VHS recorder trips to the mall, getting dropped off at Fuddruckers and like getting some big

that fries with the sprinkled stuff, whatever they put on there. Double doozies from the mall, the cookies with the frosting in the middle. Oh my God. Dads don't give a fuck about health. Dads don't give a fuck about the health. They're like, yeah, we'll drop you off at the mall, go see 16 movies, come back with like a purple tongue from, what was it called? A kamikaze or something. Jawbreaker? No, when you would like go to the self- Slushy machine. Slushy machine and you could just put purple and pink and the blue and then the Coca-Cola with the Sprite and the 7-Up, whatever the hell that was called. We just did that and eating all the food and just coming home just like, yeah.

And it was just heaven for us. And I think my mom was a little like, oh, it's great that you get to go down there with your dad and do all that. And now you got to do all this other stuff at home. Take the trash out and do all that stuff. Be responsible. And so my dad loved...

Being the one, I think, that we were so happy to be there. And my mom was dealing with real life. That was a complicated thing. My parents really talk shit about each other in a way that made us not know exactly who we were supposed to be supporting. And it's like the first time my sister and I experienced that thing of like, are you supposed to side with the person you're with? Or are you supposed to defend the person? Or we didn't really know what the right thing to do was. And then I think it would create a lot of guilt. There's been studies that it's akin to abuse. Yeah.

Well, mom, dad, I'm here to tell you, Monica wants you to know. You're an abuser. I know you're listening. I don't know if you're listening. I'll send this to you to let you know. Those therapy bills I'm sending you. It's very damaging. Yeah, it is. It was confusing. You love your parents. Also, I think it was too early to introduce this idea of questioning what your parent was like outside of your relationship to them, what they were in the world in terms of assessing them.

them as human beings. It was like too early for my sister and I to have that ability to be like, well, why doesn't dad like mom? And why doesn't mom like dad? And why isn't dad paying the child support? Or is he put to find a point on questioning who they were as people and everyone's intentions as opposed to just this like safe space

space for caregiving and all that other stuff. And you can see where it would be really tempting too, because I'm even still with my wife and around the children and I have to police myself because I have a very sneaky way where I could make fun of mom in front of everyone. Totally. And it's actually just a grievance I have and I have to stop myself, but it's in the chamber.

I really understand. And if she weren't around and we were divorced and I hated her fucking ass, I think it would be even that much harder. We come from a family of, my dad was a big teaser. And so that's how my sister and I, even to this day, she says my arm looks... I'm sorry.

My arm looks like a kielbasa sausage. And she's not wrong. It does sort of look... It's not very nice. It's not very nice, but she's not wrong, you know? And I say some things to her too. But we really go at each other, but we just start laughing. But deep down, when I go to put on a sleeveless shirt, I do think like, is my arm like a kielbasa sausage?

I probably should just maybe wear a longer sleeve shirt. Or she said that my face, when it's upside down, oh, she said my nose looks like a mushroom. I like how I'm only saying the things she says about me just to engender some goodwill. This is your interview. I'm sure you only tell her how gorgeous her hair looks and how well-spoken she is. No, sometimes I make comments about things. I do. I, as a sibling, love it.

Catherine Hun was just on too. And she was saying that her family let it rip in a way that was so evil. And she's having to break that cycle. And me too, because I've already walked halfway down the path. You still can get made fun of in our house. Yes. I do think it's a real asset to be a person who can laugh at yourself. I agree. In the world. If you've got that in your back pocket,

You can kind of weather some storms. It's that Carrie Fisher quote, which I will not say perfectly, which is like, you've got to find the funny because if it isn't funny, then it's just true and that would be unbearable. You got to find a way sometimes to laugh at yourself. It's kind of a gift they give you because I see this in our kids. The eldest has a really hard time with rejection often.

Or disapproval because she grew up with two people staring at her thinking she was God's gift to planet Earth. The little sister gets rejected a hundred times a day by the older sister. So she moves through the world. She's like, I'm going to go say hi to this person. They might say, get out of here. I don't care. That'll be the 81st time someone said something shitty to me today. You get made numb to it, which can be an asset. That's right. Sibling stuff is so interesting to me.

It is. I'm comforted that you're still making fun of each other. That means you talk. She lives very close to here and she was like, wait, you're going to be nearby. And I was like, yeah, I'm not coming over. I got shit to do. But she's one of my favorite people in the world. We're the only ones who are around for our parents and our experiences as children.

I'm writing about it at the moment, and I recall the moment my brother and I looked at each other, or at least it's seared in my head as the first time. Maybe it happened before, but there was definitely a moment where we're sitting in the backseat of the car in the wintertime, and the house is on fire, and the stepdad who passed out and cooked a steak while my mom was at work, this whole circus, and now the fire department's there, and they're fighting, and we were in the backseat, and we both looked at each other as if to say...

Like, ah, they're all crazy. Everyone's nuts, right? Fuck, it's you and I. Right. And you just want someone to sort of acknowledge that they see what you see. That's another gift. You can bond in a way if you grew up in some chaos. It's true. And we are the first to laugh at ourselves and each other. And all we do is make fun of my mom. That's her job now. Yeah, yeah. Is to take it on the chin. That's right. Sorry, mom. It's your turn in the barrel.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. We are supported by Echo Dot Kids. Echo Dot Kids is a cute, smart speaker for Alexa made just for kids. Echo Dot Kids automatically filters explicit songs, so kids are always ready for dance parties and singing. And parents can rest easy knowing everything is kid-friendly.

By using voice commands, children can interact with the devices without a parent's help, fostering a sense of responsibility and independence. Alexa can help kids develop by establishing healthy morning and bedtime routines, complete with reminders for tasks like brushing teeth, packing school bags, or going to bed on time. I need those ASAP. Calvin listens to his Echo Dot before bed every night. He does. He puts on...

He'll ask to play Fleet Foxes or Local Natives and just listen to music all night. We have one of these in our house, and my family loves it. We've got the super cute little owl design. It's so sweet. Plus, purchase of the device comes with one year of Amazon Kids Plus, a digital subscription designed for kids age 3 to 12 to safely learn and explore. Endless fun for kids. Peace of mind for parents. Shop the device now at Amazon.com slash Echo Kids.

We are supported by Quince. The fall season is in full force. Even here in LA, we're starting to experience a little bit of sweater weather. It's the perfect time to pull out a cozy cashmere sweater or a nice leather jacket. Whatever keeps you feeling warm and stylish. That's why this season, we're thankful to be partnering with Quince. Quince offers affordable, high-quality essentials for any wardrobe. We're talking seasonal must-haves

like Mongolian cashmere sweaters from $60 and comfortable pants for any occasion, including Thanksgiving dinner. I hope they have a little elastic in the waist. I have a button-down. It's like a little denim button-down. It's very cute and it's very versatile because you can dress it up or down. You can wear it over something that's like a little shimmery or be very cash. And, you know, I love any excuse to put it on.

shop and a new season is a really good excuse. Yeah, there's no better place. Upgrade your wardrobe with pieces made to last with Quince. Go to quince.com slash DAX for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash DAX to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash DAX.

If you love iPhone, you'll love Apple Card. It comes with the privacy and security you expect from Apple. Plus, you earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, which can automatically earn interest when you open a high-yield savings account through Apple Card.

Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app. Subject to credit approval, savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility. Apple Card and savings by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City branch. Member FDIC terms and more at applecard.com.

Okay, so when in this childhood of moving around a lot and ending up in Park Slope, I guess for the longest period. Yes, that's right. When do you decide that you're theatrically inclined? I think it happened long before then. I really think it happened when I was in utero. I have to imagine that it did. My mom would...

confirm for you that there was never a time when I didn't want to be an actress. And what kind of weird stuff were you doing? Imitating commercials in the bathroom, you know, a lot of Prell commercials. Remember Prell? I'm sure you do. Swirling my hair around and shaking the mirror and insisting that we put on plays that I would direct and my sister would have to play every part I wanted, but I would play all the good parts and she would be like the teapot or something. Always wanting to do that for the family and listen to me sing this song. And I have a singing voice that is so shockingly bad. And there are all these pictures of me in front of the wall of books

just singing my little heart out from Annie. I just was always that way. Were you getting to go to any musical? Did you go see Annie as a kid? You know, there's that story which I've told before, which is I lied and told everyone when I went to my new school that I was very close to getting the part of Annie in the movie. Oh, that's wonderful. It was like, you see that actress? It was almost me.

You know, like I just created a whole story. It's just early acting, which is just a lot of really convincing lying. Well, there's a thin line between a motivation board or what do they call them? A vision board. A vision board and actually not just saying out loud. Like it happened. Yeah. Wow, you were ahead of your time. When I think about it now, I'm just like, you're really desperate to matter or to seem important.

It was somehow very clear from an early age that I obviously didn't feel that just my own being was enough. I had to create some story about being chosen for this very special thing. Well, you still have it. You're saying even with the parts you play, you don't want to play you. I want to play something as far away from me as possible. And I want the challenge of...

of trying to inhabit some other, like the Linda Tripp thing was probably the greatest acting challenge of my life and the work I'm the most proud of, even though a lot of people didn't watch it and a lot of people didn't like it so much. Critically, I got really, really... You did? Yeah, I did. But in a very funky way. I remember reading one review that was about what would Sarah Paulson know about loneliness. A lot of it was talking about me as a person, playing this person, loneliness.

who was sort of unseen and forgotten by society and then did this really, really despicable thing. It was just an interesting thing that there was a personal take. I shouldn't be the one to do it because I wouldn't know what that's about. Almost like it wasn't your story to tell. Yeah. Well, also as a thin actress playing,

a woman who was not. Physically, I looked so different from her and that I was playing a woman who was profoundly lonely. At least in our version of the story, that was what motivated her subpar, to put it mildly, choices that she made. I think as I've grown

My list of people I hate is really, really small. If you ask me on any given day, I really can't think of anybody. But I have to say there's a couple I still have and I'm going to hold on to them. And I really hated Linda Tripp. I really, really despised what she had done to that young girl. And cool, the context, why it motivated her, that's always going to interest me. But I'm holding some space for I think she was, at least for that chunk of her life, was a really terrible person. Because I don't mind when people's

fuck-uppery injures themselves. But when your version destroys another human being... The only thing I would say, or posit, as I like to use the word posit... Good word. For a gal who didn't go to college. And I know, she didn't go to college. Is that I think people know not what they do sometimes. Which is why I would separate it from her being a terrible person versus a person who is consciously trying to... For example, I don't think she was capable of seeing the forest through the trees in terms of the

consequence, the global fascination and the explosion in terms of Monica being destroyed. And in Linda's mind, the idea that Monica came from money and that Monica was beautiful and that Monica had a leg up that Linda never had. So in her mind, when you have those things, there will be no strikes against you. It's punching down always. Exactly. And so I think for Linda, she was like, and it's even in the script, I remember it was like, Monica will be fine. There's no danger to Monica because for Linda, so much of what her experience was, was being so invisible that she thought

If you look like that, if you come from that kind of family, you will have everything. And the reason I didn't have any of these things is because I don't look like that. I don't have that. So she was unable to see. And that's a very relatable point of view. I have admitted to that in the past where it's like I felt like my life was unjust. And so I felt entitled to do things that were very unfair.

to right-size the scales. Right. Like I stole. I'm like, yeah, well, rich people have money. I don't have money. I did that too from the candy store and maybe from Betsy Johnson once. She deserved it. Where I stole a long-sleeved bodysuit that in the 90s were the big, remember like girls who wear those crushed velvet bodysuits with a big belt and a baggy jean? That's

That's cute. I could wear that bag. But I did wear one out of the store once. Sorry, Betsy. This was like something I did in New York. But I would justify it. Like my mom put me in a private school that she couldn't afford. And she would work in the office to pay off the tuition. And I was going to school with Louise Bourgeois' granddaughter.

We don't own the brownstone. My mom had an apartment on the top of this brownstone. It's like if we went to the Gap, we would get the slouchy socks, but I couldn't get an outfit. I felt like there was something unfair about this. I'm being subjected to this influx of wealth and money or being inundated by this in a way that I can't compete. And what I didn't have was conversations with my mom about what

that was about and values. And even if I did, I don't know that it would have registered for me at that age in terms of it being meaningful. I just knew I didn't have something that I wanted. It was the language spoken amongst the people I was with and they hadn't earned it. They were just getting it because their parents had it. And so I felt like I didn't take these. And it's not something I'm proud of to this day. And of course, if I had a child, I would not encourage it. Once I stole something, I remember from a store in the West Village when I was very young and my mother made me go back and give it to them and

I remember exactly like what I was wearing and how itchy my coat was and crying and just being so mortified. But it was just that feeling of, am I, oh, so I do understand psychologically why Linda Tripp, why I don't categorize her as a bad person.

I categorize her as a limited person who did the best she could with what she knew about what life was. And it was only through the lens, which we all do to a degree. It takes a certain kind of enlightenment, a certain kind of self-awareness to take your own blinders off. We all put everything through the filter of this person did X to me based on my particular makeup and history. It feels like X.

But to someone else, you're like, oh, that doesn't feel like a big deal. And you're like, yeah, but to me, if I was left alone a lot as a child, which I was, and by myself all the time, and I rely on you to be here at a certain time and you're not there, it feels to me like you're rejecting me. Even though you just had a thing happen that for someone else, it would not be a situation. But for me, it would be. Yeah, nothing's really real. It's all subjective. Exactly. So in terms of relationships, that's the thing I might carry in or one carries in is like,

whatever you've experienced in your life. And it's up to you to process it and figure it out. I had a shrink once say to my partner and I, just because you didn't mean to trigger somebody doesn't mean you didn't. There may be wires around that you think you're stepping over. You didn't actually step over it. Like your intention sometimes is important to know, but it doesn't always render you innocent. Being on the correct high ground isn't the solution. Correct. It does matter that you didn't mean to. That matters to me. Yeah. Are you all right? I don't want to step on this with my

Do I choke with a Michigan accent? You do. You sure fucking do. You're like. I wonder if I can cough if I'm a Brooklyn guy like.

Yeah, that's good. Now if you're Southern. You give me another one. Really good. Really good. Oh my. Really good French. I like your French. This is really good. We've invented a new improv. Okay, so you always wanted to be a performer. And is LaGuardia...

LaGuardia High School, is that what fame is? It is, although I refuse to call it LaGuardia, which is where I went. I always call it Performing Arts because that's what it was when it was over on 46th Street, I believe, which was the original building. They moved it, expanded it, made it larger, and it still was the Performing Arts High School of the fame days, but it was given the name, the Pharrell H. LaGuardia High School.

And you went to the bigger version? I went to the bigger version. And so I was like, I'm at LaGuardia. I was like, I'm at the airport. It's not my favorite thing. There was a separate school called Professional Children's School, which is where Sarah Michelle Gellar went. She did a TV show called Swans Crossing back in the day. This was like pre-Buffy. People who were working and who could fax their homework in, I think. And I'm saying that as a person.

I'm assuming they didn't go there, but I'm assuming they'd send their homework in via fax. Whereas this was a school where you were not really encouraged to work professionally. But it was the same school, but there was no dancing on a table, unfortunately. How much were the students aware of it? What year did that show air? It had already aired when you went there. Oh, yes, because I went in in 89 and graduated in 93. Is it kind of exciting to go to a school that there's a show about? Yes, although the show was already on. Yeah, still. Yeah, and the movie. It was cool.

And also you have to audition to get in. 3,000 kids auditioned at the time I went and 60 kids were accepted to the drama department. Oh my goodness. So like that was really cool and fun and great. Although I didn't go to school a lot. I was in the Central Park Meadow and smoking so much pot. Oh wow. Good for you. So much pot, which I now can't smoke because I feel like I have to go to Cedars-Sinai every time. I'm like, I can probably do it now. And it's like, I can't do it now. You think you can't breathe and stuff? You get like paranoia? It's not the drug for me. You should try cocaine. Have you tried that? I really liked that. Yeah.

That was really good. Especially for a lonely kid who needs attention. And also, yeah, attention. I'd look in the mirror and be like, there is no one more beautiful. I know. No one else. No one more powerful. Oh, yeah. No more more beautiful. No more powerful. No more funny person. That's why the drug is so good. People go, why do you like it? I'm like, because it made me optimistic. Yeah, it made me feel like the person I fucking wish I was. Yeah. Instantly. Instantly. Monica, you should try it. You should really try it. I gotta go. I'll try it.

I'll be right back. No, I can't do the drugs. Those days are over. I tripped on so much acid. Oh, you did? You were a real little druggy. Oh, yeah. I probably couldn't look at a Paisley carpet to this day. I always think there's a cat in the corner or something. I'm always like turning quickly and be like, did something just move? And were you dating in high school? Were you popular? No.

Be honest. While you think, I usually wait towards the end of the interview for this, but it's striking me so hard that I'm going to say it now. Do you have a celebrity doppelganger? No. Oh, I have so many celebrities. You do? Oh, yeah. I'm going Millie Bobby Brown. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll give you 42 of them. I have 100 million of them. Who else? But do you want to hear the weirdest thing about Millie Bobby Brown? Yeah. So you can picture her really good, right? Yeah, because I know her a tiny bit. Do you know who I think she looks just like? Tom Wilkinson.

I know that'll fuck you up, but I pray you look at some pictures of them next to each other. He did do a side-by-side one. I sent it to Monica. I promise you there's something very weirdly... I know exactly what you're talking about. Do you? Oh, I do. Tom Wilkinson, that's really good. Yeah. It's crazy. I've gotten so many people my whole life. I think compounded a little bit by how many characters you play. Maybe or how ordinary I look is sort of what I've decided. I've gotten Elizabeth Perkins from Big.

Oh, sure. I get her a lot. Big time. You know who I get a lot is Adele all the time. Lana Del Rey all the time. I can see Lana Del Rey. You can even Google Sarah Paulson Adele and there's like 72 pictures. And to the degree where people mistake you in public. I had someone come up and ask me if I was Elizabeth Grant, which is Lana Del Rey's name. I've had that with Zach Braff my whole career. Yes, I really can understand that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very obvious. I really can. It's very obvious. Wow, there are so many pictures. So many pictures of me and Adele. Well, fun. But you have gotten

Millie Bobby Brown. Millie Bobby Brown, for sure. Especially there was a time on Stranger Things when she had the curly hair and I was playing Marsha Clark. There's pictures of that on there too. Oh my God, wonderful. Okay, well I'll try to put up some pictures of you and Wilkinson and see if we see any overlap. It's a compliment because he's such a good actor. Oh.

Yeah, and he hasn't died. Didn't he die? No. Did he? Did Tom Wilkinson die? Oh, do you have the disease I have where I think everyone's dead? She thinks everyone's dead. Wait, look it up. He did die, right? 2023. Fuck. Oh, that's sad. His performance in Michael Clayton. In Stranger Things? No, she. No, no. You've got them mixed. I have to cut that because it's.

Not respectful. God, I would really love to see Tom Wilkinson playing Eleven on Stranger Things. Oh, that's so sad. He'd nail it. I guarantee he'd nail it. He'd nail anything. Okay. I love your career so much because it's a mess. It's such a fucking mess. It is such a mess. I've never heard anybody put it that way, but I like that. I feel like of anyone we've interviewed,

have had so many starts where you had to have thought, finally, it's going to get easy. So let's start at the beginning because you really quickly, you do hit the ground running. You're 19 in your first Broadway play, which is impressive. And you must have thought, well, fucking buckle up, bitches. Right. Next stop is the Oscars. That's not what happened at all. Actually, my first job ever was as an understudy on Broadway.

I understudied the great actress Amy Ryan, who is so wonderful. And I got to play it for two weeks. I was 19 years old. I didn't go to college. I was like, I'm going to try to do this for the first six months. I didn't get a job. I got Sisters Rosenzweig, Wendy Wasserstein play, understudying Amy Ryan. I went on for two weeks. Then I got a movie with Kathleen Turner, a movie of the week. Remember those? Called Friends at Last. Hallmark. I do a really good Kathleen Turner impression. Oh my God.

Oh my God, you do. Yeah, it's really good. But it's really crazy because this is my Kathleen, but it's a very specific kind of Kathleen. It's Kathleen now. It's my Kathleen Lynn. Oh my God. It's a different kind. You have to go listen to her. Could we do some body heat scenes? Yeah, but I don't know any of the dialogue from this. It's Kathleen Turner today. Her voice is deeper and richer and even better. People who do accents kind of scare me.

Really? A little bit. It's like hyper-vigilant. Is there something magic? It's just weird hyper-vigilant weirdness where people notice things that other people aren't really noticing. What did you have for breakfast? I had a salad. A salad for breakfast? For lunch, I didn't have breakfast. This is like the happiest I've seen Monica in like two years. I feel like this is a little bit

is a little bit of an insult. Now it's getting aggressive. No. You're like, wow, Monica, normally you're such a bummer. Yeah, you're such a bitch. You're such a bitchy bummer. She's a dream co-worker, but every time I look over at you today, you're like ear to ear smiling. It's just really wonderful. It might be my pink. I am very into your pink sweatshirt. Thank you. B-Sides, shout out. Shout out. They're the greatest company ever. By the way, I'm not kidding. I wear their jeans only. These are B-Sides? Yeah, I noticed them. Monica, relax. Oh,

I love this. I noticed that. I love this. Anyway, back to me. So I, just kidding. No, but you got a Kathleen Turner movie. I played her daughter. I thought that was going to be a thing. And when I look back, I'm like, it was a movie of the week. Like, what did you think was going to happen? Well, it's huge at that. It was a big deal for me. And then I did a pilot called American Gothic that Sean Cassidy created. I turned 21. I think once we went to series, we did a pilot. We did get picked up and I thought, well, this is it.

CBS. Start mansion shopping. Start mansion shopping. Lived in Wilmington, North Carolina. Thought it was a thing. Canceled. Moved to LA. Didn't know how to drive. Got my driver's license here. So I do this pilot with Robert Bastarelli called Cracker. Mariska Hargitay was on it. I'm pretty confident it was Josh Hartnett's first job. And I was his first on-screen kiss. Oh!

That's such a good claim to fame. He was so handsome. He's still so handsome. I just saw him recently on the set of The Bear and it was really sweet to see him. And I remember him saying something to my boyfriend at the time being like, she's a good kisser. And he was like, I'll fucking rip your throat out. But he might be like, I never said that, which is totally fair. But that was my memory of it. Again, like I said, it's a big liar. We all want to kiss you now. He couldn't even help but brag about it to your boyfriend. Doesn't it sound intriguing? Yeah.

very intriguing. I'm not gonna lie, it's pretty good. I'm pretty good at kissing. I'm pretty good at kissing and not even on cocaine, I'm just pretty good at kissing, period. You're probably worse on cocaine. Probably worse on cocaine. But I think you're great at it. Yeah, exactly. I'm like, I'm so amazing at this. You're numb lips. Yeah, exactly. Like, oh.

And then I did this pilot and I thought it was gonna be a thing. I did a couple episodes, not a thing. Don't I do a Jack Lemmon TV movie also? The 99 to Jack and Jill. That was your first like stability. Stability, I get a season and a half or two seasons. Two seasons. Yeah. So that was a five year before you get some real stability. Correct. And again, if I'm you, I'm like, well, cool. I'll probably go from this to the other show that runs for two years or three years. And then we have another...

Again, you work. 2002, you do Leap of Faith with Ken Marino. We love Ken Marino. Love Ken Marino with a passion. But again, six episodes. You're like stuck in this world of you do a pilot, doesn't go, you get six episodes. 2004, Nip Tuck. This is

This is the first time I see you act, I'm sure. Oh, so this is where you first met Ryan. First time with Ryan, yeah. And so knowing that you didn't talk so early in 2004, was that the love connection or did that come later? You were just on the show. Didn't meet Ryan. I did meet Ryan. I actually knew Ryan because of Jill Kleberg, who was a wonderful actress who Ryan obviously loved very much. And her best friend was a writer named Jennifer Salt, who is Waldo Salt's

daughter who wrote Midnight Cowboy, Oscar winning screenwriter. And she was a writer on Nip Tuck. And I was friends with them. And I was at their house with my girlfriend at the time, Cherry Jones. And we were at Jen Salt's house and Ryan came over and he was like, I want you guys to be on the show. And Cherry was like, no. And I said, yes. And then I did the show. So it was all just people that we knew. So I did have a little bit of an experience with Ryan, but that's not where it happened. Right. It's not like he saw that and was like, well, I must work with this person. No.

Okay, so then from 2004, we go to the Glass Menagerie. You go on Broadway. That's cool. You're loving that. And then the aforementioned Studio 60. We get a year out of that. And that was the one everyone thought was going to happen. And you're like, now finally. Now here it is. I've landed. And fuck, now we're... Because I'm the same age as you. Now we're 31. When that gets canceled and you have another little stretch...

I mean, really between 2007, 2011, I'm imagining it's pretty scary. I think I got the spirit, that movie that was also supposed to be a thing. It's a comic book movie. Sam Jackson, Scarlett Johansson, Ava Mendes, Frank Miller direct. Like we thought it was going to be a thing. It was essentially like a comic book movie. And I was the girl. Yeah. What's your personal story at this point? This is one of those things where when you're inside it,

It certainly feels like things are happening. There's enough stuff going on where it feels like there's interest and the world feels in retrospect like it was much smaller in terms of the group of actresses that were auditioning for things. Now it just feels so saturated. I don't know how anybody makes their way. But it's a funny, weird thing. And I'm not a particularly spiritual person. I'm not a religious person. And some of this is a little bit about my sister, Elizabeth, who is a little bit psychic.

And she was like, this isn't going to happen for you until you're older. I didn't put like a ton of stock in it until when I was like 38 or 39 and things started to really change. And I was like, was this bitch right about this? But it was also inside of me, I had some weird feelings.

And for no reason, because I was not being told by the universe in any concrete way, you were going to be fine. But I think I had some weird belief. Can I argue something right now? Yes. It's going to be impossible for you to respond to. But I'm wondering if that difference...

is that you actually knew you were really good. Because I was in those spots, and I have to tell you, my own confidence wavered in those spots. I'm wondering if it came from the fact that you knew in your heart you were fucking great at this. I think it's possible that you're not wrong in one way that I want to make very clear. I think I believed I could be. I don't think I thought I was. Because I had pockets and moments of fear.

things where certain people were responding to my work. I was getting feedback from like Steven Spielberg. He wanted me to do this pilot and there was like this pilot war between these two creators and like, was I going to do this Spielberg one? And then of course, neither one of them went and nothing happened with it. But I remember getting some kind of information or even when I work with Jack Lemmon, him saying to me, don't ever forget how good you are.

You know, and I was really young and I didn't know what I was doing. That was all maybe just instinct and had nothing to do with a craft or anything that I knew anything about. So I think I was getting just enough insight

feedback from people that seemed to really know that I thought maybe I was capable of something. And I was always an impressionist. I was always a person who would do these wild characters that people at stupid parties would be like, Sarah, do your thing. And so I felt a little bit like there was some thing I had to offer that just hadn't been tapped yet that I wasn't even aware of, but I thought could be in there.

And I don't know entirely why. It certainly wasn't in the work I was doing. I don't look at anything I did back then and go, that was really special. But I did get the Glass Menagerie, even though the production was not well received, opposite Jessica Lange, when all of these girls my age, some of whom have Oscars now, were auditioning for this. And for some reason, they picked me. And I don't know why. And I don't even think I was particularly good in that play. So there was something in the back of my brain that was like, just wait.

And I don't know why. And also, there's nothing else that I ever wanted to do. What was happening financially? Were you frugal? Were you able to weather these pockets? No. I never learned how to deal with money ever. I remember telling a business manager once, please let me know when I get down to this amount. And they never did. And then I had $10,000 to my name and I had no job. And then that was right when I got Game Change, 12 Years a Slave, and the first season of American Horror Story. You had $10,000 in 2012? I had $10,000. Mm-hmm.

That's horrifying. Yeah, it was really scary when I think about it now. Do you know an actress named Carla Gallo? She's in all these Judd Apatow movies and she's currently on Platonic with Seth Rogen and Willis-Byrne. You have friends that are friends with her. Yeah, she's my friend since I'm 11 years old. We went to high school together, although we weren't in the same friend group, which is why I didn't mention her before. And so she can't be offended about that. Carla Gallo is not smoking pot in the meadow, let's put it that way. But she helped me write my first check. When you say the meadow, are you talking about Sheep's Meadow? Sheep's Meadow. Yeah, it was just there. What a place. I smoked a lot of pot there. That's a great place to smoke pot. It really is. Very wide open.

Let it rip. Carla Gallop taught me how to write my first check because I was in Sisters Rose and Swag. I was making money. I was still living at home, but I didn't know how to write a check. I remember paying for my first headshots and writing it out of my checking account. And Carla was with me and she had to tell me where the zeros went. I just didn't know where she did a show called Carnival on HBO back then and bought her first house. I had done at that point.

point. So many shows that went and didn't go, but I could have bought it. And it never occurred to me. I bought my first house in 2016. Money was not something I knew what to do with or how to deal with it. I'm still not great with it. We didn't really have a lot of it. It wasn't part of the curriculum in the house. Yeah. That feels healthy though. Maybe. My wife says, wait, you can end up fucked. When I first met her, I was like, hold on a second. How much money you got in the bank? Right. But there's something very, very healthy about it.

The version I have is unhealthy. It's a balance. I think it's maybe middle ground. Well, because I think if I had known more, I wouldn't have been waiting for my business manager to say when I got to this certain number. If I were opening the things that were coming to my house with the reports on what I had, I would have known. Now, however, when I found out I had that much in the bank.

I was able to live off, I found a way, but I had to go to my landlord who was really, really sweet and someone I'm still friends with to this day and say, can I pay a little less? We're between jobs. Yeah, we're between jobs. You know, and she was so wonderful with me and I got very lucky that way because that is not a common response when someone says I can't make the rent. But it was right then when things changed. But now you have a house on Architectural Digest. Yes. Oh, you've seen that? I saw it and I was just talking to Catherine about this. I think...

I think maybe we have... Nikki Kehoe. We share a designer. Is that your person too? She's my designer too. Yeah, I love her. She's a genius. Oh, she's a genius. And their store here is the best store in town to go to. You can't go in without buying something. No, you can't. It's really a problem. You want to live there. I know. And I'm like, why didn't we do this with my living room? I want to just tear the whole thing down and start over. See, that's the problem, you guys. The second you've completed your thing, you have to unfollow her. No, I can't.

The problem is just finding out there's new stuff that looks better. Yeah, there's new stuff that looks better. I have it with cars. Every year they put more horsepower in all these cars I like. Every year, I'm like, oh, they added more horsepower. I got to get this. It'd be better if I never found out they added more horsepower. Well, it's the same thing with clothes and shoes and bags. I mean, besides, call me. Exactly.

So once you get it... Call us. Call us. You just... You gotta unplug. No, you just keep buying more houses. So that you can get convinced that she peaked, she never evolved past this, and I haven't. Exactly. She perfected it and then quit. And then went downhill from there. Okay, so the crazy ride starts in 2011. You do...

American Horror Story, you do three episodes in the first season, but then you come back for the second Horror Story, Asylum, and you play a totally different character. You get nominated for an Emmy. You also do 12 Years a Slave. You do American Horror Story, Coven. You play a witch and then Game Changer. Nominated for Emmys for all of those. Wow.

Bonkers. Self-congratulatory. No, no, no. It's also timely. They were last night. They were last night. Yeah, guys, I was there. That dates us. They were a while ago. She went. Oh, yeah. They were a while ago. They were in the past. I just wanted to talk about one aspect of listening to you talk about all these different projects. I think the situation you were in was compounded because we just happened to interview her. But you, A, have to play...

a terrible racist person, which is rough. Just going in there and delivering that. I got offered once to play a Nazi. We should see the characters that exist on planet earth. But I got offered that thing while I was also on a TV show and I had a black son and I spent every day with him. And I was like, the notion of him seeing me in this movie talking like that, that ended up for me being the thing. But anyways, it would be hard.

And then doing it to Lupita, who we just interviewed, I feel like would be a uniquely terrible feeling when you're doing it. It was horrible. It was a very hard day. The fact that Lupita and I had become sweet friends because we didn't know any other way to do it. We just talked.

just talked about it. We were like, so today we're going to have to do the bit where I scratched your face. Today we have to do the bit where I throw the crystal decanter at your face. And we would talk about it. It wasn't easy. The only thing, and it goes back to the Linda Tripp thing, which was I have to find a way. I do have a friend, a good friend, a very successful friend who said no to even auditioning for 12 Years a Slave because she was like, I don't want to play that person. I really understand that. But for me as an actor...

Also, for the good of the story, you cannot tell that story completely without the hideous behavior of the white people in our country at that time. Well, to make her story that much more important. You have to really show the brutality of it and the callous, unflinching brutality.

behavior of the woman I was playing. She was also a product, this is not an excuse at all, but a product of her time. But what it really meant was this was a person who was not interested in doing any deep dive or any questioning about what she was being taught. And there are some people in life who would go, wait a minute. Steve McQueen, who was our director, was just like, it is vitally important to me that you do not judge her. He never was going to do a take of me by the sink, wiping away a tear going, I can't believe I just did that. He was not going to do that. So he's like, don't try to

ingratiate yourself to the audience. And it was a wonderful early lesson for me to think about that. Even with the play I just did, playing a person who's really rough to be around. You can't apologize for these people who know not what they do. It's not a play about or a movie about a person who discovers the hideousness of their behavior. That's not their story. In order to let the storytelling really land where it should land, you have a responsibility.

Okay, now I don't fantasize about playing, say, a white nationalist, but I do fantasize about playing someone like, let's say, Nicholson in As Good As It Gets. Grumpy and telling people to just shut up and fuck off and get out of here because I do want to do that really bad. I would love to walk through life one day and say, fuck you, get away from stupid, fuck off. Like, yeah, that voice is in my head. And I would enjoy playing someone who got to behave that way.

Yeah, I got to tell you, it's really fun. I would imagine. I mean, I just did that in the play. Just very little patience for anyone. And people are always like, do you hear yourself? And she's like, no, I don't care. It was a really kind of liberating thing to do. And maybe a little glance into the future when you're 70 and you don't give a shit. Oh, God.

I mean, I hope not. Because it's also kind of a miserable way to live. Exactly. Maybe that's fun to tap into, but I don't think you'd like, especially as people who want approval. That's not how you get approval. So I think that would only last for so long. I guess you're right, Monica. Okay, I'll be nice. You can try it, Monica. Feel free to try it. I'll keep being nice. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

We are supported by the new holiday action comedy, Red One. The mission to save Christmas is on. Dwayne Johnson and Chris Evans star in Red One from Jake Kasdan, who I love as you know. Director of Jumanji, Welcome to the Jungle.

After Santa Claus, codename Red One, played by J.K. Simmons, is kidnapped, the North Pole's head of security, played by Dwayne Johnson, must team up with the world's most infamous bounty hunter, played by Chris Evans, in a globe-trotting, action-packed mission to save Christmas. This is Christmas fun like you've never seen before. See Red One only in theaters November 15th. Get tickets now at redonemovie.com.

We are supported by Shutterfly! Reconnecting with the people in your life is so important. And sending a holiday card is a meaningful way to do that. But it can be hard to know where to start. Shutterfly makes it so easy to share a custom card that's perfectly you. They've got a style for everyone, from classic seasonal designs to hand-drawn holiday cheer. Customize your card by adjusting the color to complement colors from your photo. You can add more photos and text to the back of your card for free...

and even upload your own design and take advantage of Shutterfly's high quality printing and simple mailing services. Shutterfly is so fun to use and you just blast them out. I receive them all the time. My mother-in-law is a big Shutterfly person and they're so fun. I love getting holiday personalized cards. Me too. Find the perfect holiday card for you at Shutterfly.com and start customizing today. Enjoy 40% off your Shutterfly order with promo code DAX40 and

and send something meaningful this year. Get free shipping on qualified orders. See site for more details. We are supported by Addi. I know about Addi, the little pink pill, right? Yes, that's right. Addi is the FDA-approved pink pill clinically proven to boost desire in certain premenopausal women who are bothered by a low libido. I love this. It's really nice that there's an option out there for women who are dealing with low desire.

And I like that Addie's non-hormonal and created by a woman for women. Addie is helping women feel like themselves again, and that's really important. It really is. So, Armcherrys, if your libido could use a little jumpstart, Addie's got you covered. Learn more at addie.com. That's A-D-D-Y-I dot com.

Addy, or flavancerin, is for premenopausal women with acquired generalized hypoactive sexual desire disorder, HSTD, who have not had problems with low sexual desire in the past, who have low sexual desire no matter the type of sexual activity, the situation, or the sexual partner. The low sexual desire is troubling to them and is not due to a medical or mental health problem.

problems in the relationship, or medicine or other drug use. Addi is not for use in men or to enhance sexual performance. Your risk of severe low blood pressure and fainting is increased if you drink one to two standard alcoholic drinks close in time to your Addi dose. Wait at least two hours after drinking before taking Addi at bedtime. Your risk of severe low blood pressure and fainting is also increased if you take certain prescriptions, over-the-counter or herbal medications, or have liver problems. Low blood pressure and fainting can happen when you take Addi, even if you don't drink alcohol or take other medicines. Do not take if you are allergic to any of the ingredients

That's A-D-D-Y-I dot com.

Okay, for me, American Horror Story feels like the perfect show to be in forever because you get to do something new every single time. It's like the security of a long running show, but also no boredom or stagnation. Is that the case? That's exactly right. Okay, so at this point, I would like you to tell me, when does this love affair start?

Do you know the moment it happens? Is it something that grows slowly? When do you become his muse? Or what would we call you in Ryan Murphy's? I don't know what he would call it, but we certainly have had an incredible collaborative creative experience together. One for the record books. Yeah, really special. You think of the great duos. I think I'm a good interpreter of his point of view.

To me, it always sort of lives in the world of extremes. You know, my mother called me Sarah Bernhardt for a reason as a tiny child, which on one level is a little, not to say it's abusive, but it's like, it did kind of tell me from a very early age that my feelings were a little too big. Ah.

You have too much. It's too much. It's too dramatic. It can't really be that. It's histrionic. I mean, child services was called on my mother because she wouldn't let me wear a necklace to a friend's bat mitzvah. And I was screaming, why are you doing this to me? Why are you doing this to me? And you reported her. I did not report her. The neighbors reported her. No way. Yeah.

Because they were like, something's happening. I was screaming, why? Why are you doing this to me? Why are you doing this to me? Pounding my, you know, my mom just being like, Jesus, it's a necklace. And I was like, well, but everyone at the party has something on that is fancy and I don't have anything. And instead of saying that, because I didn't know that that was actually the crux. I feel less than you're a destroyer. I am not enough. Give me your amethyst crystal necklace that makes me feel cool and fancy. And so I do recognize that I have a flair for the dramatic side.

And that what I would really say if I were a parent to myself is you're very in touch with what you feel and you have a real connection to those things. They feel very, very real to you. And they're really right there. How wonderful that you can identify them and express them, which is not what my mother was doing. She was like Sarah Bernhardt.

She's in her 20s. She's in her 20s. We forgive her. We forgive her. She's working at a... She's listening. Hi. So hi, mom. So I think the truth is for the Ryan thing, it actually happened very organically. It was actually a Jessica Lange thing, which is that I went to a benefit for Project Angel Food with Jessica, who was in town to do the first season of American Horror Story. I was supposed to go do a play with Kevin Kline that fell apart at the last minute. So I ended up staying. I went with her to this event. Ryan was there.

And she just sort of threw her arm around me and said, can't you find something for her to do on the show? Because it would be fun if we could do stuff together. Because we became friends after Glass Menagerie in 2005. And so he went, hmm, you know, I actually maybe have something. And it was to play this psychic on the first season of the show. And I played her friend who was a psychic. I did three episodes. And for whatever reason, this is the part that is always going to be a mystery to me because I've asked him and he's like, I don't know that I have an answer for you, which is he then threw me the lead essentially in the second season. Yeah. Yeah.

For me, the greatest experience of American Horror Story ever was that season in particular. It was just so special to me. But I don't know why he gave me this. It just was one of those things again where I just go, I don't know. And he's like, I don't actually know. I am very intimidated by him because he is not overly expressive. That's true. He's not effusive. And for an approval junkie. Yeah, I understand. I'm like, wake your face up. I'm giving you... A lot of good shit. Yeah. Yeah.

So for me, it's kind of kryptonite. And I feel like you and I are kind of similar. So how do you... He and I were 10 years apart. It's a little bit different. But you're a woman, so you're probably four years apart. Yeah, four years apart. Exactly. And I think we are very alike in a funny way. We're

were kind of exacting and brimming with ideas and very loyal. And I understand exactly what you're saying. And there are a lot of people I know who ask me this question, who say, I don't understand how this relationship has lasted as long as it's lasted because he seems so scary and you seem like one of us who's just over here going, like me, like me, like me. We had enough time together socially. We had enough time together

where we got on like a house of fire. I just made him laugh. You know, it's one of those weird things like, why do you fall in love with the person you fall in love with? Or I understand from the outside that he looks a particular way to people. But when I'm one-on-one with Ryan, and traditionally when it's one-on-one, he is the most...

generous. The way he talked about waiting to see if I was going to win that Tony when he called me to say, I almost had a fucking heart attack waiting because they waited for the last 20 minutes of the show. He was like, I was flipping out. And he said he just like stood right out of his chair when they called my name. And he just wants things for me. Is it possible that you're living out loud in a way that he's

he would love to do, but for whatever reason, that's not how he does it? I think it might have more to do with the fact that he knows deep down that he is the reason why I have the very messy career that I have. That he is...

responsible for basically giving me my artistic life. And I wonder if knowing that, that you feel a responsibility and also a pride and also a sense of having a really good picker, I bet on something that delivered. Yeah, big time. A lot of people wanted to play Marsha Clark and for whatever reason, he decided it should be me. And it changed my life. I think there's just some part of him that saw something in me. And I think I've said this publicly, that was something

Sort of to the point of what we were talking about earlier of deep down, I think I knew I was capable of something. I didn't know what. And I think he knew what I was capable of. By virtue of him saying, you get on the field. I had to get out on the field and take the ball and go running. And I did. And he said, I knew it. And now we're going to do this again and again and again and again. Has there been one where he called and wanted you to do it and you didn't want to do it? Not once. Also, some people are soulmates. I believe that.

I think it's true because there's no question. People always say this to me about him and it's true. And I sometimes look at him, I'm like, why aren't you smiling? You know, and he's like, this is me smiling. And I'm like, right, I know. And you get to say that to him and other people don't necessarily get to say that. But I think the truth is I find him to be a very warm person.

generous, wonderful friend who has given me a real embarrassment of riches in my professional life and personally too. If I could never work with him again, that would be okay, but I wouldn't not want him in my life as a friend. That is an important thing I learned recently about our relationship. Yeah, I didn't even count them up, but it's got to be between, you've done nine of the 10 seasons of Horror Story and then you've done

three crime stories. You did impeachment. You did OJ. Only two crime stories. And you're about to do a third thing. So we're in the teens. I did Nip Tuck for him. I did a pilot for him that didn't go. I did Feud. You're in like the 15 plus. Yeah. We've done a lot of stuff together. You're so fine on your own. You two created all this great stuff together. But do you think, God, I hope he works forever because I want to work forever in his stuff? I do think

I do think that because I understand what he's going for, which I think is a lot of the work. And I just think I'm the right actress for it because I got a lot of big feelings. They are often put to good use in his stuff. Do you guys both have outcast syndrome? Oh, interesting. You were the poor girl at the rich school. He was a gay dude in straight America. I mean, you'd have to ask him that. I will on your market. But I definitely feel sort of like outside. It's a good feeling to preserve, even if it's a lie at this point. We were talking about before you got here. Yeah.

Way before you got here. Okay, the only other thing I want to talk about before we talk about Hold Your Breath. Well, I loved OJ, by the way. It was so good. You are so unbelievably good in that. Thank you. It really added the dimensions to her that she deserved. I even felt as a young 20-something boy, a lot of this stuff that was really crazy and misogynistic, it blew over my head.

When I was watching Late Night and they were calling Monica Lewinsky a fat slut, literally using those words on TV, it didn't bump for me, embarrassingly. I watch it now and I'm like, oh my God, I was watching all that stuff. None of it sounded crazy to me. But maybe because of my single mother or something, that one felt wrong while it was happening. The scrutiny on her hair and the things that were happening to her felt very gendered and not fair. And so...

I felt like you gave her her day. Have you ever met her? Oh, yeah. You have. You worked closely with her? Nobody wanted me to talk to her before we started, even though I was desperate to. So I didn't do that. But then after I finished the Marsha, Marsha, Marsha episode, which was the episode that was about Marsha, he said, you've done it now. You can talk to her if you want. And so I sent her an email and we had dinner.

that was like a seven-hour dinner. It was very, very special. You know, I brought her with me to the Emmys and I know that for her, it was very scary at first. She had never been properly treated in the press. She had an enormous trauma and I think it was really a very scary idea to imagine 20 years later seeing...

and billboards of that trial and that glove and the name OJ Simpson all over. And then there's something about documentaries versus these limited series things where somehow it feels more real to people that whatever people are putting forward in the limited series is fact. And so like somehow putting it forward, she was like, I don't know what it's going to be out there about me. You're telling me that it's not going to be anti me, but I don't know that I believe that. I remember just feeling such an enormous responsibility. And a relief that she was happy to have dinner with you. Yeah, I was very happy. She was happy to have dinner with me.

Well, that was so great. But the thing I wanted to say that I just absolutely loved, it might be my favorite thing, but it's scary to say because he's done so much great stuff, but Ratched. Oh, my God. Really? I loved Ratched.

Nurse Ratched. Wow. Does that surprise you? It does. I have no access to any data, but I was shocked. I wasn't hearing more people talk about that. It was as far as I understand, because I was an EP on that. So I got to be on all these calls with Netflix. I was like, this is how this happens?

It was absolutely successful. We were picked up for a second season. That was happening. It was pandemic time. And by the time it came around again to think about doing it, Ryan was so busy and all the actors had scattered. And it just felt like, what do we do here? Or do we let this sort of stand on its own? I'm not happy with what you guys decided at all. It's funny, when I was doing the play, so many people, when they were waiting outside to say hi to me, were talking about, when is Raja coming back?

Oh, it was so interesting. I loved doing it. I feel like visually it was one of the best. Oh, I mean, this is the thing Ryan does with these Douglas Sirk paint. The costumes, I loved doing. And my boyfriend's D'Onofrio. I love him. God, I'm pissed now. I'm leaving today. I'm sorry. With a resentment because there could have been a season two. There could have been. There was the kind of cool idea that he had that the show would run up until she entered the cuckoo's nest. Right.

You know? Yeah, yeah. It was such a neat idea to do her. It was such a very smart idea. I'm really mad about that. I'm very sorry, Dad. Okay. Sorry I can't fix that for you. Peachment, Linda Tripp, we talked about it. I loved it. Nominated again. So many Emmys, so little time. And then, of course, last year you do Appropriate and you won a Tony. An Anthony, as I call them. Right.

I have an Anthony. Of these awards you've won, is that the one probably? Yeah. Those are more valuable, right? I don't know if they're more valuable to everyone. They must give out less of them. They give out fewer of them is the correct way to say that. This is the second time that's come up. I've done that twice. I didn't go to college. But neither of us can spell Parmesan. I can't spell Parmesan. I can't spell fucking anything. That is the truth. Same. I can't conjugate a verb. I don't know what a preposition is. I am adult. But I can tell you one thing.

I know when it's fewer and less. Someone beat that one. Someone did. There's some scars here. No, it's because I understand it. You have fewer cars on the road. You don't have less cars. So it's about when it's numbers or you've eaten fewer steaks.

You haven't eaten less steaks. Think about how that sounds. I love that your explanation of the difference is just saying the words out loud and seeing how different they are. You would not be the best teacher. So true. As charismatic as you are. It's true. But if you just stand in front of them and say, see, see how dumb this sounds. Fewer steaks. Yeah. Less steaks. Less steaks sounds funny. I'm going to find a way to poke a hole in this.

You won't be able to. It's not going to stand up to rigorous scrutiny. Fewer cars in the parking lot. There could be less cars. I'm less afraid. You're not fewer afraid. Now you're onto something. Chase that down a little further. That's not a number. Yeah, you're less handsome. You're not fewer handsome. It's a quantity. I still think you can say they hand out less awards at the Tonys. I'm sorry. I'm going to stand by that. I mean, you can. Come on.

You did. And you did, but it's better to say fewer. But people's ears hurt. Yeah, to me, the Tony matters more. There are fewer plays. There are fewer opportunities to win them. It makes it harder, therefore, to get. Fewer cars in the parking lot. Fewer cars in the parking lot. That's the Tonys. Fewer steaks served at the show. Fewer steaks served at the Sardis. We came all the way around. Came all the way back around, guys. Look what you did. We did it. Also, I was an actress in New York wanting to be on Broadway. You have all the letters of an EGOT, but the Oscar. I don't have a Grammy. Oh, you don't have a Grammy.

Let's get you one of those. Can we get one for this episode? We're trying. I'm angling for a Peabody, which I don't understand what it is, but I feel like we're capable of getting it. Does that make sense? Yeah, I do. Just about as much sense as my fewer and less sense.

I could imagine never having even set my sights on an Oscar. But by God, if I got the E and the G and the T, my OCD would be like, this is incomplete. Now we must get this fucking Oscar. You're getting an Oscar. Oh, I don't know about that. Rob, present her her Oscar. That I feel fairly. I'm like your sister. I have psychic abilities. You do? Yeah.

But you're a shit singer, you told us. So the Grammy might be further. So that one's going to be trickier, but you can do like an audio book or something. Right, but then I feel like it feels like a grab. Doesn't matter. I take 20 stabs at an audio book just to try to get it. Just to get it. Yeah. Also, you're like, oh, how embarrassing my EGOT was calculated. You suck this dick. Yeah. That would be my response. It doesn't matter. Take it how you can get it. So fucking what? Am I right or am I wrong? Get a lot of life.

fucking got it and you don't, okay? Why don't you fucking go do a layup then? Why don't you fucking try to get a fucking EGOT any fucking way? They're so easy. You so fucking dry, you fucking think you can make it happen any old way? You can't. Why don't you jerk yourself off while you're at it? And jerk your dad off too, you fucking small, you fuck. We don't get it. Go call your mother for me, okay? She's going to have to pull a... You know where I was going. You know what I was going to do.

Okay. Should we rent a black box theater, you and I? Yeah, theater. Get suggestions? Yeah, I'd like to. Just throw something at us. Let's see what we can do. I'd like to get wild with you. Yeah, let's get wild. I'd like to push each other's boundaries. Yeah, we put a box in the middle of the room. We just put a bunch of things and people have to pick it out and we have to do it. We have to act it out. Serpent, go. Go. Oh, my God.

I feel like I need to leave. What if I was a serpent who spoke? Well, I'll meet you in the garden. Eat this apple. Eat it, dice. Original theme. Okay, great. Next one is an aardvark. Oh my God. Oh my God. I have to say stop now and let's move forward. Monica will be like,

Shut up. If you and I got a bag of Coke together. Oh my God. Oh my God. Buckle up everybody. We'd have to be in a huge field, bigger than Sheep's Meadow. We'd probably have to be in a big, huge field or a padded room of some kind. Lots of water too. So much water. We're going to have to hydrate. We've got plans. Okay.

Tony, congratulations. Thank you. So to wrap up the Sardis. Yeah, we know where it's in. Fuck. Yeah, it's very obvious. Very obvious. She set that wall in by accident. She was delivering a baked Alaska. You wish. And set the whole wall. No, but you went with your mom and you got a caricature. They gave me a caricature. So exciting. And the cratest, I just said the cratest. It's a new word. Fewer craters. So we walked into the room and the guy who owns Sardis now is the man who hired my mother. Oh my God.

He only worked in the downstairs lounge at Sardi's. Back when my mom worked there. And they saw each other. Of course, my mom remembered him right away. And he said to her, we did all right, didn't we? It was really sweet. My mom was very, very moved. And then I got to thank my mom in front of all these people. And I just like to say for the record, it looks super...

so much better than what I look like. It looks like Jodie Comer and Winona Ryder had a baby. It does not look like me at all. No Wilkinson? No Wilkinson, no Millie Beebe. There's no Adele, there's no Lana Del Rey in it. There's no Elizabeth Shue, there's no Elizabeth Perkins in it. It is simply Jodie Comer and Winona Ryder. Two very attractive people. I don't look like them. I don't fare well in characters.

I've had a couple done. Really? It's scary. The nose, which is already a lot. They can't resist. They go apeshit with the nose. Yeah, they just made my eyes really big and I don't think I have to go. That's very moving. That's lovely though. It was very moving. Okay, let's talk about Hold Your Breath. Hold it. First, let's set the stage and then I'm going to ask you some historical questions that I ran out of time to answer myself. But set in the 30s in Oklahoma. Correct. And this is the Dust Bowl. Correct.

What is the Dust Bowl? The Dust Bowl is a man-made event that I think we as a country were responsible for because of how much we were overturning the earth, because of how many crops and how much wheat and corn and all the things that the country was making a big fat buck off of. And they didn't understand rotating crops yet. They didn't know how to replenish the soil. They ruined it. And then in a part of the country that the movie takes place, the Oklahoma Panhandle, there's not a mountain or a hill in sight. There are no trees. There's nothing to stop the

the ground itself from lifting up into the air if there's any weather element of any kind. And then what happens when you can't farm, you can't grow anything, you can't irrigate, there's no rain, is that all you do is have this loose ground everywhere. But you also means you can't feed your animals, which means you can't get milk from a cow. You can't feed your chickens. Everything collapses and then you have no food. You have no water.

You have no way of getting any. In the Steinbeck novels, they're always escaping the Dust Bowl. Trying to move away from it. But in that part of the world, there's very few places you can go where you're not encountering the same thing. Also, pick your metaphor for this movie. Like one of the numerous ones that are on the table is just

This illusion of safety. We have this parcel of land. This thing did give us something once. Being able to let go or not throw good money after bad. That's all like there. Because on first glance, you're like, why didn't everyone get up immediately after the first storm and get the fuck out of there? Well, it's also pride of place. You live somewhere and you love your home and your community and you feel also that it's temporary. You don't have a crystal ball and know that this is going to go on for years and years and you expect

the government to do something about it. It didn't. Yes. The sandstorms or dust storms are so bad. And of course, you're reminded of what structures look like in 1930. It's not like everything was insulated. It's just fucking blowing through your house and everyone's living in this cake of dust at all times. And the kids are getting sick. And it's making people sick, yeah. I'm a little bit of a neat freak. I started becoming like,

How oppressive that always growing layer of dust everywhere you look. It's very claustrophobic. Yes, and that's intentional. Okay, so that's one of the metaphors on the table. And then what is the one for you that was most salient? I don't know metaphor-wise, but I know why I wanted to do it. Tell me. Which was because I was interested in where I meet this character, which is my own rigidity, my own fastidiousness. Oh.

She's bringing it back from the beginning. She went all the way back. She remembers. Really good. I also have some form of OCD. I'm a real Virgo rising. I get very focused on having everything in its place. So I could really relate to a person for whom that kind of...

sort of begs the question metaphor wise. It's that idea of like, we all have this free floating anxiety about what is this all about actually? Life, what are we doing here? What are we doing with each other? Am I doing the right thing? So it's all this free floating anxiety. And we think by getting up at this certain time and exercising and eating this thing, that we're creating some path towards, whether it's health success or monetary success or creative success, purpose, whatever it is. Really, we're all just like running away from the great big dirt nap.

Margaret is spending a lot of time, that's the character I play in the movie, trying to create something by way of normal life in a really abnormal reality. This tiny pocket of the world you theoretically can control, which is the inside of this little house sitting on all this acreage that is blowing around. Yeah. And so that metaphor for me is we do that as well. The world is scary and unpredictable and chaotic. You're creating some sense of safety. So I was interested in that metaphor.

the real crux of it is this idea that Margaret has to do everything she can to protect her children. And I don't have children. Another thing we were talking about before you decided to show up. We had so many good things we were talking about before. I hope you're recording, Robert. I don't know. Did you get all that? No.

No, he wasn't. Rob, you're always... He didn't want to waste the ones and zeros. He didn't want to be secretly recording. ABR. It's ABR when Dax is here before me. Oh, we're going to have a chat later. Oh, shit. You're in trouble, Rob. Rigidity. The sparkle just went down to a glimmer. She's about where she normally lives. But I feel like having a reason to live...

That is outside of you, meaning the sort of self-centered you-ness that is living your own existence. You as Dax, you as Monica, me as me. You have children, you have a wife, and you don't, you have no one. You have no one. You are the Dust Bowl personified. Oh my gosh! Your womb is the Dust Bowl. Everything's just a fucking dried up...

You guys. I'm going to go cry now. Herod is the Sahara. I have huge eggs. That's been proven. And I do have a partner and I have these three dogs. But the idea that a person would do anything and everything.

to protect someone other than themselves was really interesting to me. Yeah. Let's say more about that because I've done the thing. I have not done the thing. Do you have curiosity about it? I know why I haven't done the thing. I want to hear. I had a conversation with a very good friend of mine recently about this and she sort of articulated it so perfectly and I was like, that is why. I don't have the constitution to raise a child without destroying my life. And by that, I mean,

not like my ability to go to dinner. I am so hyper freaked out about everything going on in the world, about their health, about their wellbeing, about what the world would do to them, who would say what to them, what their experience in life would be. I am not equipped to allow a being to be out in the world on their own path without me putting a million bumpers and

balloons or whatever, pillows, whatever could just keep them from hitting their head on the ground. My constitution would not allow me to do that without every waking moment. Would we call that your anxiety? My anxiety would be so off the charts that my own life outside of my relationship with my children would be awash. And that is really true of me. And if I thought I could do it,

My best friend, Amanda Peet, and I talk about this all the time about the good enough mother. Winnicott, who is a famous psychologist, talks about the good enough mother. That there is no such thing as the perfect amount of attention a child gets or perfect amount of freedom that they would get. You know, there is no perfect...

formula. Okay. I want to have a conversation with you, but it does run the risk of me as it always does. Like you're convincing me to do something? Yeah. Like that I'm trying to convince you or that I'm shaming you. I'm so old and I do have some eggs frozen. You froze. I froze. You don't have to worry about me feeling pressured by you. Okay, great. Because that's not at all... I'm more interested in hearing what your point of view is. I think there's a fun philosophical thing right here, which is

We're all aware of the many gifts that kids give you. Us parents won't shut the fuck up about it. So you already know them all, I would imagine. But what's really fucking incredible is that there is a version of you that you didn't know was there that me as a pessimist would have guessed it wasn't for me. And that weirdly is the thing. So, yeah.

Yes, you're that way. I accept that. But what's really wild is you have these kids and I go, wow, we've got to be a better version of ourselves because this thing deserves it.

I'd say them and having to get sober. Those are the two things in my life that have changed me in ways that I would have otherwise said were not possible. And fuck whether you should or shouldn't have kids as the human experience in the grand experiment we're all undertaking. That's why I like it. Forget I'm not see people should or shouldn't have kids. None of that. It's just like the bizarre experiment of your time on planet Earth.

The thing I've found kind of interesting is that I have risen to some things and overcome some things because I actually do care about them more than I care about myself, which was kind of unimaginable. So it's just like a counter thought. I think it's right and true. And because I have really close friends with multiple children, my sister has three kids. I know you're right. And yet...

And this is a larger question of what my commitment to my anxiety is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My commitment to my identity around my anxiety, what my allegiance to it is. And like, am I afraid that if I give that up, who would I be?

It's another control thing, too, in its way. It's a funny thing. I take enormous risks in my work. I really do. Oh, God, yeah. I really do. You're a baller. And I have failed and I will fail again and I've had successes and I hope I have success again. But I think I am much more of a real, like, hold on to the handrail person in my life. So that you can't

It can be wild. And I don't know if I've ever connected the two in terms of going, I can only do that in my work if I do this in life. I don't know if it's that, but I do know that I am a person who sort of lives inside a bit of

more than not. I don't feel like I take a lot of risks in my life. And this is a very big example of it, of like I was unwilling to, and also just to be totally frank, and this is the place to do it, be as frank as possible with a lot of people listening. Sure, sounds like a good plan. I was and am very ambitious. My working life is very important to me. And not to be the hokiest fucking dickhead

nerdiest actress, annoying person on the planet, but I am what I am, is that some of my roles have felt like my children in a way. They've taken so much of my attention and my focus. It's not on me. It's about them, although one could argue that it is for my own personal whatever. Well, for parents, too. For parents, too, also, so we could argue that. Yeah. It just, for me, has been...

And again, to bring it back around, wanting to be approved of or celebrated or paid attention to or noticed that some deeper part of me, even the parenting part of like, what am I doing to try to show myself or the world how good I can be at this? Even if it's the part of me that goes, look at the freedom I'm giving him or her. Look at what I'm doing. Look what I'm able to do. How much of that is actually about me needing a similar kind of pat on the back? It's a whole new relationship.

round of that. It's a whole new round. It's just this funny thing where I think ultimately I did make the right decision for myself. But every once in a while, I do look at my sister or my best friends with their kids and I'm like, hmm, what would that have been? But I look at the way I dog, I'm going to make that a verb, but the way I dog is really fucked up. I don't leave my dogs alone often. I have someone sit with them. I do the very thing I fear I would do with my children. It's like, here I am and I have them. And then I have Amanda saying to me like,

But bird, we call each other bird. Why don't you just understand that they're not going to hold it against you if you go out to dinner? And it's probably good for them. And I'm like, right, but they can't tell me. They can't tell me what they want or don't want. It gets me all fucked up because I'm like, what if they're like, and I'm like, you're fine. Sometimes the kids say, please don't go. And you do have to go. But you can then say, and you recognize when you go, I'm going to be back. And they're like, I don't understand. And you're like, but I'm going to be back. And then you see the proof that I've come back. And you can tell there's a shared experience. Whereas a dog's like,

Blank, blank. And one could argue, well, there you know, they don't care. But then there's all these studies coming out where they're like, they cry when you come back and there's real tears and the MRIs and the dogs and the brains and what they can feel. And they can talk now with these buttons. Yes. And they can say, I want to go out and they know what it means. And it makes me fucking nuts, you guys. Yeah.

I'm really fucked up about the dogs. All I want are the dogs. And I want a thousand dogs. The reason I have three dogs, including one of them who's 27% inbred, which means his parents, the brother and sisters are definitely fucking. And he's really a dope, but he is consequently the most loving one of all of them. So there's an interesting argument for like, what's that about? Yeah.

Because I got two real smart dogs who are like, take it or leave it. Like every time I put one of them down, they shake off my hugs. And this other one's just like, gimme, gimme, gimme. And I'm like, well, your parents may have fucked, but you are so cute. Your parents were also your aunt and your uncle, whatever that math is. But I'm the big winner. But I'm the big winner here. Yeah. It's the dumb and happy debate versus the harder. It's the dumb and happy. That's right. Because I'm like, you are not thinking about whether or not I'm coming back. You don't care. You're just happy to see me when I am here. You two are over here like, this bitch never coming back. She'll be out of here in five seconds. Don't believe these scratches. She says she's going to be back. She's not. She's going out on the town. I think.

think sometimes because I'm very close with his children, especially his youngest, who I was around when she was a baby. And sometimes I do get sad sometimes where I'm like, oh, man, like, I wish I had this feeling all the time. I really don't know. But it's like you said, sometimes you're like, huh, I wonder. And I do have that with her. But I also feel proud sometimes when we hang out and then I leave and I'm like,

So I just gave to this little person. I'm not going to get anything back in this life. It's not my kid. She'll visit you in your terminal. I hope so. She will. I can tell. It might be before we know it.

You never know. Because my heart could explode. Yeah, exactly. Right, right. My heart could explode. You told us about your cholesterol in those five minutes? Your cholesterol is very high? Yeah, quite high. Are you on a statin? I'm supposed to be on one, but I'm delaying. But it's fine. I'm going to be fine. Does your mother have high cholesterol? My dad. Your dad. But how old is your dad? He's 70. I mean, you're good. I know. I mean, come on. Can you knock on wood? For your dad or for you? I'm all of us. How long has he been on the statins? For like 35 years. Okay, great. So let's get on the statins and then we're good. I think we're good. Yeah, we're good. We're good.

But all to say, there is something actually like this is a beautiful relationship to practice just giving and then leaving. Yeah, the leaving part is really something I like doing. I really like doing it when I go to my sister's house. I'm like, bye bye. It's a nice night of the real housewives. Enjoy bedtime. I get to go home and do whatever the fuck I want. You're right. There's a lot of benefits. But.

You know what I mean? I do. I'm just joking. There's something very hard about not being the caregiver, but loving like a caregiver. And so that's an interesting relationship I'm glad I have. I understand that. I think that's the best of both worlds. Yeah. It sounds, I think, like I'm on a full-time agenda to get everyone. You don't sound like that at all. It's just a different perspective and also a lived experience where things worked out in ways that you couldn't have imagined. And that's worth sharing. And you're right. A lot of people have been made worse by it.

Yeah, there are some people, if they're honest about it, will say, I regret it. Yeah, absolutely. And it doesn't go great for everyone. We had help and we have money and there's a lot of things that make it easier for us. And there's one thing you kind of can't do once you got one. Give it back. I mean, you can't put it back in there. No. Yeah. So it's like really got to be dealt with. It's one of those decisions. And sometimes it's really complicated when you're like, how will you know what you feel? And you're like, well, then what if then it's there? And you're like, I don't want it. Yeah.

Yeah, buyer's remorse. It's actually the only decision of that level. Yeah, it's really, really... And it's really serious. Stakes are high. Stakes are quite high. Yeah. Okay, back to Hold Your Breath. So...

I don't know how we talk about the plot of this in an artful way that doesn't give everything away. But in essence, we meet you. You have these two little girls and we understand your husband is away building a bridge. There are also some other folks in this little community and you really get a sense of how fucking lonely those people were. Everyone had their acreage. It wasn't like what happens in Los Angeles or a lot of cities or towns where houses are just like boom, boom, boom right next to each other.

Yeah, so it's like you're going through hell. You're not sure if other people died. You don't know how they're handling it. And then, of course, the other people in the community are dealing with it, some of them in much worse ways. We're concerned about one woman's sanity. You're trying to maybe be helpful for a while. But then there's some other stuff going on. That's the part I don't really know how to introduce. You mean about a potential descent into madness? Yes. The movie is about the very, very small tightrope walk of sanity sometimes. Yeah.

that's probably the truth of it. I don't know about you, but sometimes I will see someone or experience someone doing something really fucking crazy. And I think they're by the grace of God. Because I think at any given moment, the tenuous hold one can have on one's own sanity and like what can just send it off, you know. So that was another thing that was very interesting about the movie to me was what does that look like when what you're doing to try to remain sane is

is actually super crazy. I'll also add, it's really trying to put some line between what are the real threats in life and what are the imagined ones. Because as the real ones are coming at you, you feel emboldened a bit for having anxiety and fear. It can be misleading, weirdly. Yes. Well, it's a little bit like this risk assessment thing. Like there was an article or a book written about this, and I can't remember who it would be attributed to. But this idea of like, just because you feel anxiety

that something is likely to happen because of a certain set of circumstances doesn't mean that it will. I think a lot of us look to feelings to tell us

whether something is dangerous or not dangerous. And sometimes that's an appropriate response if you feel like someone's following you or something. I'm just talking more about people thinking about the probability of something bad happening because you feel like maybe it could or you worry that it might. You think somehow by having the worry, it's communicating that it's more likely. This movie, this woman is sort of alone raising these children in a very, very scary, harrowing circumstance. And what she imagines, one thing you can say that is not a giveaway, which is that she has already lost a child.

And so her fear of it happening again becomes naturally very, very potent for her. And when you're by yourself and you're alone. That's key. Well, this is the other thing. We were talking when Rob wasn't recording that this idea of when you're not in a relationship. I have a couple of people in my life who are single and have been single for decades.

years. And I'm not talking about because they couldn't get a man or something. I'm talking about decisions made about this. And I find them to be the most difficult relationships I have in my life because they don't have the consistency of a voice other than their own to either talk themselves out of some story they've told themselves or some assessment they're making. You know, think about the number of times you rely on Kristen to say to you, Dax,

Dude, my dude, this is not what you think it is. And you saying to her, babe, listen to me. You need sometimes, and sometimes it can be a friend, doesn't only have to be a romantic partner, but having people in your life that you can rely on to say to you, you're thinking about this is out of adjustment. And it's of paramount importance. Nothing could be more valuable in life than having that kind of connectivity. And when you don't have it, you're swirling in your own juices and it doesn't do you any good.

Well, by the way, there's almost a fun game you could play. It could almost be a game show where it's like sometimes you're listening to someone tell you about their problem. I have the thought, well, they've been sitting with this one on their own for a very long time. I'm the first person to hear about that. They're even hearing themselves say this out loud and realizing this sounds a little nuts. And I know the fourth person that hears what they're going through. This will be a different story just by the act of hearing themselves out loud. I can tell. That's right.

This is a real thing that happens in life. And I think in the movie, she has just got no one except for her daughters to bounce things off of. And I think she's got enough wherewithal, certainly in the beginning of the movie, to not bring them into too much of her worry. But it's obviously on her face. She's carrying a lot and the death of a child and also...

Is there something out there that is trying to harm her and her family? In addition to the crazy dust bowls. Is there a person, an entity, a being, a thing that is coming for her and her children? And it is very scary to her.

And it's very real. And she's got no one to sort of say, did you hear that? Do you see that? Do you know about that? She doesn't want to freak her kids out. Right. And so it's this thing she's battling by herself, which is far more likely to send you down the rabbit hole of. Another good metaphor. Just these family secrets. I think you could watch this movie and whatever your issues are going to be on full exploration. Yeah, I agree. That's a trigger for me is like protecting kids from what? From reality? You can't protect them from it.

they're in it. Right. By not telling them doesn't remove them from the reality. It just has them guessing. And also, I always feel like where there is a void, you fill it in with your own information that is probably erroneous or at the very least not even accurate. What is the point? This is why I always feel this about relationships and friendships too, romantic or otherwise. I would rather talk about it. I'd rather you tell me every fucking thing you hate about what I did. I would rather you

say it all and then let me at least respond and say, here's what I was thinking or here's what was going on with me. Like it, leave it, agree with it or not. At least the conversation is out there. At least you have a frame of reference for understanding why behavior is happening. And it's like, if you don't tell me why, I don't have to agree with you. I can tell you that was not my intention. You can tell me that my intention matters not to you at all. But there does come a point where if you withhold that

from me. And then I'm trying to figure out who to be or what to be for you too, or how best to be. I'm creating something that's like, I think you're doing X because of Y. And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah. No. And it's like, well, if you had told me, I wouldn't have gone over here and created it. I think friendships, relationships are

romantically to live or die on communication. And it's like, if you're able to say the hard, impossible thing and the other person can hold it, again, I'm not talking about agreement. I'm just talking about willingness, really, to hold something uncomfortable. And I think we index all differently. Like you and I need that.

I do need that. Because I will fill in the gaps and there's no getting away from this thing I created. Correct. And then I'm the one not sleeping. You're sleeping fine. Yeah, because you're not even mad at me in the way that I think you're mad at me, you know, and it's like, I'm trying to figure out what I've done or what I didn't do. Back to that dualistic behavior a little bit as a kid. And the truth is my world has gotten a little smaller of late because of these things. The older I've gotten, the more I've realized that there are some people in your life that can hang with

the ugliness of things, the truth of things, be responsible for their own part in things, expect you to be responsible for your part of it. But people who take their ball and go home and don't want to talk about it, for me personally, I can't do that. There are other people who can coexist perfectly that way because they both don't want to talk about it and then just move on, moveon.org, you know? Yeah, yeah. That's a very good site. But there were times in my life where that

didn't seem as important to me of having like-mindedness in terms of, again, not agreeing with me on everything, but at least willingness and openness to being able to really get in there and roll your sleeves up and pull it all out. Look at it, shake it all out. It's blood and guts and dirt and shit and vomit, and then spray it all down and see what you're left with.

And either there's something you want to put back in the body and sew it back up and we go back on our way and we're better, deeper, richer for it. Or you go, I don't want what's there. Great. I don't want it either. By the way, I've never had a single experience where we did all that. And then afterwards, I didn't feel better. Correct. Me neither. Whether or not we resolved anything or not. Me neither. But there are other people. The proof for me is so there. But to me, I think you do have to rely on another person's sanity.

In some way. Because you could be willing to have a conversation about the deepest, darkest things about yourself, your jealousy, your envy, your hatred. But if the other person isn't willing to like do that same kind of excavation, I do think it gets really hard because then you end up feeling a little like, wow, I just...

Put all of that's a level of relationship. Yes. There are certain people you wouldn't do that with. Exactly. In your life. You want to keep at some sort of arm. Totally. Plenty of them. Yeah. Because as my therapist would say, if you have a problem with someone, but you know, like, you know what? This relationship has limitations. And then you go to them and you say, hey, this is what's going on. And it's this and this. You're actually inviting intimacy. That's what you're saying. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. In order to make the risk of that worth it.

is A, you have to know you want the thing in the first place. And then second, you have to know that the relationship itself can withstand that. And you don't go doing that with your guy who gives you your Starbucks in the morning. But there are people who do that too. They want to parse out everything with every person. But I would like to talk about almost anything with almost everyone. Yeah, we do love a deep dive. I love a deep dive. I like to get in there. As I said at the beginning, you're a unicorn in an anomaly, in an enigma, wrapped in a mystery in a, what did Churchill say? And I got to know you better.

And yet I still have it. Really? Yeah. That's kind of the dream outcome for me. Cool girl. I definitely know you better.

And also you're still pretty exotic to me. Really? I feel like we're like a lot alike. I do too. So what's exotic about it? Why is there a woman version of me? What do you mean? They made a lady version? They made a lady version of me? Actually, they made a male version of you because you're 15 days older than me. So I'll take that. I'm a replica. I'm the male version of you. I like it. Thanks. I like it. But I'm so interested about what's exotic about it. I feel like such a... You feel pedestrian? I feel...

a little bit regular. Yeah, you're not. I'm not. You're not in a wonderful way. Yeah, in the best way. That's what I'm saying. You had unicorn vibes coming in and then you like maintained unicorn vibes. That's what I'm saying. I wonder what Monica feels. I feel unicorn vibes too. I told you you were a cool girl before ABR and I still think it. Wow.

This was really fun. This was really fun. Did you like it? I really loved it. I really liked it. My question, I've been wondering for a long time, like why no one's asked me to be on it. No, are you kidding? Yeah. We have been asking for years. Oh, really? Yes. I think we told Amanda, hey, can you tell her? Yeah, yeah. I don't remember her telling me that at all. Well, I guess the main takeaway of this is fuck you, Amanda P. We learned anything on this episode. Bird, fuck you.

Fuck you, bird. This was fun. Well, this was a blast. I really enjoyed this. I want everyone to watch Hold Your Breath, which is

On Hulu, October 3rd. This is fantastic that you can just watch it in your house. People are lamenting the fact that, but at the same time, I'm kind of like, do you really want to leave your house a lot? That's the problem. I'm saying one thing, but I'm living a different way. I know. This is how I feel too. I'm fraudulent. I know I'm fraudulent that way too. Okay. Well, this is a real party and I hope we do it again. We're going to do it again. Okay. You're not going to get rid of me. All right. Everybody watch. Hold your breath. Hold your breath. October 3rd. Don't hold your breath until October 3rd. Well, you could. It's dangerous.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. The new Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. Introducing the all-new Apple Watch Series 10, now available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

Compared to previous generation, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. He is an armchair expert, but he makes mistakes all the time. Thank God Monica's here. She's gotta let him have the facts. You have a computer today too? I just wanted to see what it was like. What if I had a computer?

You're just jealous. I do like that you have a prop. I'm jealous that you have a prop. It's fun. Like you play with a guitar and I've just got to sing on a mic. Yeah. I can't hide behind it. But I just have it because I was doing some work and I had it in my hand and I didn't know where to set it in my house. Sure. I have a whole thing about setting things down. I think you've heard me talk about it before. Yeah, because you have been judgmental. I'm very judgmental of people who lose things. Yeah. A.K.A. me. Yeah.

Well, no, most people lose things. Yeah. But I always argue if you only have X amount of places you set things down, you can't really, you know, even saying it out loud, I sound terrible. I recognize. No, it makes sense. It's just, I think you think of it as like,

This is so obvious. It's a solution. It's like your teeth are falling off. Well, you brush them as a toothpaste. Your idea sounds great. Yeah, no one likes it though. Everyone I pitch it to who loses stuff, they don't like it. I've never convinced anyone to adopt this strategy. But at any rate, I kind of live by it.

So my computer only goes certain places because I would have the panic of my life if I lost my computer. I couldn't put it upstairs because cleaning's happening upstairs. Okay. And I was like, oh, I'll set it on the counter and run to the attic. What do we call this? By the way. Garage. Side note. The garage? I call it the garage. That's fun. Side note again. Another side note. I dealt with the cobwebs. Have you noticed we have cobwebs in the very peak of the roof in the attic?

Well, I've been noticing them and I'm like, the guests must see those. There's a couple that are like, they've spun together, they've gotten dirty over time. They're gross. They look like hanging pinatas and there's dust inside. Happy Halloween. Happy Halloween, happy birthday, happy quinceañera.

So I was in my garage using my leaf blower to blow out the shit from the garage. And I noticed, oh, I had some cobwebs in the corner of the garage. And I used my leaf blower. By God, it got rid of them. A leaf blower just blast the cobwebs away. And I went, ding, ding, ding. This was just Sunday.

So then I immediately sprinted up to the attic and I was just leaf blowing the shit out of the top of the attic. Wow, okay. So when we get up there in a half hour, which we're scheduled to do, I want you to look at the ground because there's bits of cobweb laying all over the ground now, but it is off the ceiling. Ew, you prefer it on the ground? I prefer it out of the attic. I had to get it off the ceiling. And what was I going to do? Get a ladder and some feather. And I just took the leaf blower to it.

I thought that was a pretty creative solution. It is. Okay, back to this. So I didn't know where to put it and I'm not allowed to put it in places I'll forget it. So then I was just carrying it and then I thought, oh, fun, I'll have a prop like Monica.

Interesting. And I wonder where you're going to put it next. Bend over, I'll show you. That's not one of your places, so you can't put it there. Remember I said that to my mother-in-law and she kind of took it seriously. Bend over, I'll show you is a big saying in our house. Kristen says it a lot. I think the kids even say it. I say it. But some people don't like that saying. Well, it's rude, objectively, but it is cute. It's so ridiculous. You're not really... She took it seriously in that, like, she bent over...

No, she just reported to Kristen that I had said that to her and she did not think it was very funny. I see. This is why you can't have a computer, FYI. Because I clean it while we're- Yeah, you're like all busy with it. Well, good prop work, you incorporate it into your acting. You should know that from all your training at your various schools you went to. I didn't even go to acting school, but I know to incorporate your props. Oh.

Okay. We're on a time schedule. We're on a time schedule, which is why I'm immediately can't get on. I know that in the back of my head. So you're trying to like do the opposite? The rebel in me is like, I can't, now I can't concentrate. Okay. I'm so sorry. Where were we at? This is going away. I'll put it there. That's over. That fun experiment and game is over. Is this going to be one of your new spots?

Because or do you have to see this is my problem with your your plan, right? Yeah. This isn't one of your spots. So really, by your theory, you'd have to stop what you're doing right now. Go walk this over to one of your designated locations, then walk back. And no one does that. This is no fault of your own. I haven't explained the entire system to you. OK. Obviously, if it's in my line of sight, my purview, I don't have to worry about.

where it's at. If I'm at a restaurant, I can see my phone. Obviously, the restaurant's not one of the places I put my phone because I don't live at the restaurant. But as long as it's in my line of sight, I can't lose it. Wait, this is that. I'm going to poke so many holes just like your toe. No, you either. Wow. Updates on that too. If it's in your line of sight, you're fine. You can't lose something that's in your line of sight. Of course you can. That's exactly how it happens. In my line of sight, I know my phone's there. This is great. Do our thing. Oh my God,

Oh, my God. We're late for our thing because we are. Stop. That's the problem. You can't get up and leave the line of sight. Well, you do. You don't plan on it being a hurry, but then it's a hurry and it's like, oh, fuck, we got to go. We got to go. I'll get my. And then I run up there and then. You're acting like there's a monster is chasing you or something. Your brain doesn't work like this. Like, I'm always like flustered. Like, oh, you are.

Yeah, there's always so much to do and like so much happening. And I have to run upstairs and then I take my computer. Okay. I'm like, oh, yeah. And I grab my purse and I run out. Okay. Then we do our interview that we're about to do. And I'm like. Hours have gone by. Where's my phone? Right. That's how this happens. I'm going to not leave its orbit.

That's a commitment I have. Okay. We'll see what happens when we're rushing up. My toe. At 307. On a previous fact check, I did tell you that I had poked some holes in my toe. And then this weekend, I had just removed one of my fungal patches. Yep.

I'm surprised you still want to talk about this. I don't. And even as I was saying my fungal patch, I was like, why do you keep doing this? Anyways, I saw the toenail. I snapped a picture. Sure did. And I sent it to you. And I said, is this worse or better than you were expecting? And I said worse, but that made it better. So describe for the listener what the toe meant. I can see that it's bad. It's really bad. That's why I decided to send you a picture. I'm not...

delusional that that looks healthy. I really want you to go to the doctor when we get back from our trip. We're going on a work trip and when we're back, you really need to go to the doctor because like I think they might have to cut your toe off. Yeah, that's what it looks like. So the update that I want to share with you, you saw it.

And I think this has something to do with my products I'm using on the toenail. So then this is unrelated. I just noticed my right toenails were a little bit long. I'm going to trim those. And then I started getting after the other toe. And then I started trimming around that toe.

And I was able to trim really far down without it hurting. I think the products are making the gross nail maybe hopefully separate. Because I think what really my fear and why I don't want to go is I think they're going to look at it and go, we've got to surgically pull that nail off and you got to start fresh. Right. And that seems terrible. What's your least favorite part of any torture scene is nails. Yeah. So.

I have cut most of it off. Okay. And I think I'm gonna, hopefully by the end of our business travels, that toenail is gonna be completely removed. That's my current goal.

And is the black still visible though? Don't tell anyone about the black. You already talked about the black. Okay. And the black is definitely the most disturbing part. It is. Well, but it's also been accentuated by the fact that when I put the hot needle in there, that was all black with soot. So it also deposited a ton of soot in my, in those holes. That's a lot of what you're seeing is soot.

Okay. Bend over. I'll show you. First of all, I don't think that's a lot of what I'm seeing. I think I'm seeing a lot of fungus. And then also, why'd you put soot in there? That's not going to help anything. Well, because I wasn't going to heat up the whole point of heating up the... Well, there's two points, really. There's... So it'll melt through the nail. That's why you heat it. Well, sterilization. And then sterilization. Yeah. So I'm not going to like sterilize it and then wipe it.

with something that contaminates it. So I'm just sticking with whatever. You could have, yes. Alcohol patch. Exactly, alcohol. I should have. I was in a rush for whatever reason. It's because you used to love your feet so much and then the doctor ruined one of your feet. And now you're like self-sabotaging. I know I flew too close to the sun because I was on Kimmel bragging about having foot competitions with staff members.

So I know why I've been smited. The old narrative was that your feet were perfect. The new narrative is I flew too close to the sun. And now you're self-fulfilling that prophecy. And it doesn't have to be that way. I actually, to let you know where I'm at mentally, I had a moment of optimism when I was able to cut as much of it off as I did the other day. Trying not to...

I wanna see it again. I'll show you. I need to see it with all of it removed. Okay, I think you're gonna be encouraged. Anyways, once I started seeing a little light at the end of the tunnel, like, oh, I think I'm gonna be able to get this nail completely off without surgery. I then let myself imagine what would my left foot look like if a healthy toenail grew in? 'Cause I don't have any other issues on my left foot. It's just that hideous toenail.

I started getting thinking, no, I'm going to be able to salvage this one. I had written off both feet, but now I'm back to thinking I might have one really attractive foot. Is the black still there? You never answered that. Even though you took a lot of the nail off, is the black on the bed still there? Well, here's a part that's so gross I don't want to tell you about or anyone that listens to this program.

When I cut off that sizable chunk of the nail, I flipped it over to see. And it's so bad what's underneath. Was it black? Like, what is it? I don't want to say what color it was. It was brown. Isn't that worse than black? No, because black is like, black is true. Necrotic. Necrotic.

Gangrene. Gangrenous. Fully done. It's done. Yeah. So this was more of a brown. Okay. So we'll check back in after the work trip that you think is, which is only like a few days, by the way. Yeah. That nail is going to be gone by the time. Everything's going to be fixed by then. We'll report back. Now,

We won't give any details about this, but we did see a, we went to a screening of a movie this weekend. A huge family affair. Yes. With Wobby Wob's family, your family. Natalie, Calvin, Calvin's cute friend, Bea. Yeah. My Chili's, Anna, Julia, Justin, my cousin, his Chili Nomi. Yes.

It was so fun. It was really fun. And we saw Wicked. Did you already say that? No, I didn't, but I wasn't going to. Oh, I think we can say we saw Wicked. I don't think we're, I mean, it's like very. I read the list of things we can't say about it. Okay. And I'm going to now tell you all the things. Now, but I read the list and saying we saw it is not prohibited. Okay. We saw Wicked.

We got an advanced screening. Very exciting. Really fun. And it was really fun and very good. Very, very good. And I will say I had...

And this is mean, but I had low expectations. Because it's a musical, right? Yeah. I'm not a big musical gal. Although I have seen Wicked, the play. And did you like it? And I did love it. But it's been so many years and I forgot. And so I'm not a big musical person in general. And then I'm definitely not a big musical on screen. Right. Yeah. Very few musical movies can I name that I've liked. Yes. But...

Count this one in. And I was, were you singing in your apartment any of the songs? Because I was singing some songs. Which one did you sing? Popular? No, but I love Popular. Popular. You know, I sang that song for an audition in college. You did? How do you think you did? I don't think I booked whatever part I was trying to book. I'm sure I did a horrible job because I was so crazy.

Sure. It's very scary to sing in front of people. I mean, you don't know what that is like. No, I've had to sing on stage in the groundlings for singing imprompts, which there were some built in. Luckily, I was always so bad at it, they finally weeded me out of those. You know, there's a group there that's great at it. But you love singing. I love singing. In front of people, I mean. I did have one moment. You do it a lot. Yeah.

I'm just giving. Sure. When Star is Born was out. How's that song? What are the beginning lyrics of Shallow? I love the beginning of that song. And I love to sing the beginning of that song. I'm off the deep end. Watch as I dive in. I thought that was the chorus. That's the chorus. What's the very beginning lyrics? Tell me something, girl. Are you happy in this modern world? Tell me something, girl. Girl.

Kristen and I had to go on stage in this huge Walmart conference as an outdoor amphitheater. I was there for that. Oh, you were there for that. Yes. And I couldn't resist taking the opportunity to sing it as loud and as passionately as I could. And that is the time I did it. And I don't regret it. It felt great. I don't think I sounded good, but it felt really good. Yeah. So I think. And there was enough joke built into it because it was a popular movie at the time that there was no expectation I had to be good. I think your relationship with singing in front of people is different than mine. Okay.

Okay, just know that I think, I do think I'm bad at it. No, I know that. But that doesn't stop you. It doesn't stop me. Which is a big difference. No, it's just a difference. Yes. You want to be good at it if you're going to do it. Yes. I want to be amazing at it. Yeah. That's the problem. I think we can say that too. There was amazing singing in this. Whew.

Buckle up. This leads me to a question. So we get there and before the movie starts, some members of the group...

are already singing the songs. Like, people are excited, right? Yeah. Delta was like, she was like, Lincoln, these don't sing the whole movie. Yes. And I could really relate to her. You could. I do have, like, an aversion to people who are singing when I'm trying to hear the actual song. Sure, sure, sure. I just decided I think there's two camps.

A camp that really doesn't like that and a camp that loves it and is fine with it. And it doesn't matter how good the people are who are singing. Right. It's not like if it's bad or good, it matters. It's just like, but I want to hear. The source material. Correct. Yep. And so where do you land on that?

Well, I'm with you, but I do get then overwhelmed with, I can viscerally feel the joy that all, because at one point, seven or eight people in our screening were singing along. And so I was like, yeah,

Yeah, I kinda wanna hear the voice of these people 'cause they're clearly the best in the world, that's why they got cast. But the visceral joy that they were all getting overwhelmed that feeling for me. It's like when you're at a concert, I also don't wanna hear the audience sing the concert, I wanna hear Stevie Nicks sing it.

But there's that moment where everyone's getting to sing it as loud as they can. And I do let that take over my preference. I guess that is funny because I don't have it during concerts. To me, that's just like part of it. You should. You've paid to go hear the actual artist sing the song. Yeah. And when everyone was singing, I didn't have it. There's something about it. It must be a deeper thing. It must be like, why do some people think...

That this is theirs. Uh-huh.

It must be that. Yeah. Because if everyone's doing it, then everyone's doing it. Everyone's in on it. It's fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't see the Taylor Swift cons. I mean, the movie. Yeah. But I know that that wouldn't have bothered me there. Right. Like, everyone's there. That's what you're supposed to do. Yes, yes. So I don't know. I just, I was in the shower and I was thinking about that and I wonder where you fell. Right. In the camps. Yeah, I want to hear. Also, I've never heard these.

I haven't been to the musical several times. I haven't listened to the soundtrack like everyone has. So yeah, I want to kind of hear it. Yeah. But then as soon as it's happening, I recognize that the people are having so much fun doing it that I'm, I, I,

That ends up being more important to me than hearing what I wanted to hear. That's good. So my cousin was visiting this weekend, which is really, really fun, JP. And this little girl, Nomi, and her and Delta are the bestest of friends. And I know I've already said this before, but I think it's so interesting that because you're family, there's another layer. You have cousins. You didn't have a lot of cousins, did you? Even though you... Well, I have cousins, but they weren't, they didn't live near me. They weren't close. So you didn't really have that cousin thing. Mm-mm.

Yeah, I really did. Like, I love my cousins. They weren't people I would have hung out with in school. Right. And I loved them so much and had so much fun with them always. Yeah. And I just, I think it's really cute to observe. And it's hard to know, though, with Delta. She can really be friends with anybody. True. Yeah, when she was introducing me... To Nomi. To Nomi, she said...

This is Monica. She is my soulmate. She's known me my whole life. She was my babysitter, and now she works with my dad. But not only that, she has a great personality, and she's really pretty. She should be your publicist. I know. She's my hype woman.

Yeah, like they would call her, like Fallon would call to have you on. And then they'd be offering the second spot, not the first. And she'd be like, absolutely not. Don't call back. Are you crazy? That's my soulmate. Yeah, it was so sweet. I think Naomi was like, oh, wow. Okay, that's a lot. Yeah.

Okay. So this is for Sarah Paulson. Speaking of charming women. I loved her. Loved her. It's interesting when you're watching an actor who's just super great and they're intense.

Well, we had this with... I know exactly who you're talking about. She's in the archives. Elizabeth Moss. Elizabeth Moss. You're gonna... I'm assuming she's really consternated and I don't know if that's the right adjective, but, you know, is very serious and grinding through life because the performances are so...

hard and impressive. Yeah. And I think I might have did that to Sarah before meeting her. I'm like, she must be so serious because she's so good. Right. No, she was spunky as hell. Oh, what a spunk. Spunkster? Yeah, spunkster works. I almost said spunk machine and that sounds terrible. Oh my. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not right. That would be the wrong. That's definitely not right. But she was so fun and, um,

Playful. Love playful. Challenging in a fun way. Yes. Yeah. What a joy. Speaking of her not speaking of her. Okay. But it is tangential because she works with Ryan Murphy so much. Yeah. Have you watched any of Monsters? Yeah. Yeah.

I think I watched the first two episodes. Yeah. But what it ended up doing is driving me to the documentaries. I know, I really wanna watch the doc, the new doc. I had to answer what was happening when I was watching the Ryan Murphy show, which is great by the way. Yeah. Let me just say, I think it's great.

I was having a hard time imagining that the Juan Mendez brother, I don't know which one, was that enormous of an asshole. I agree. It's just so over the top. He's yelling at fucking trick-or-treaters. I know. He's calling people poor. I know. And I just was like, I can't really continue on until I get the real. By the way, if he's not that, that's fine. Right. But I just need to know.

So then I started watching the docs to get that answered. Yeah. And the docs, although I do think it's going to get, if I continue on, and I think the later episodes do fall in line more with the docs, but at least the doc I saw was,

pointed out that if any of that testimony was given in today's times, they'd be believed 100% and watching it, I'm like, but what's so crazy and it just proves how warping context is to your perception. I was alive then, I was a 16 year old, this was all happening, I would see the trial on TV. And I was like, yeah, these rich fucking kids killed their parents 'cause they couldn't even be patient enough to get the money later. And I'm a poor kid, so I hate them.

And so, yeah, I think that testimony, it wasn't persuasive to me back then. But now I watch it and I'm like, no way, that clearly...

Right. There's no way that's not real. Well, also, though, there it was a mistrial. Yeah. And then in the actual trial, they weren't. All that evidence wasn't admissible. Yeah. They couldn't have their family members who had observed weird shit happen. They couldn't have the cousin. Yeah, they couldn't bring up the abuse, which is like that is the whole defense. So I don't know. It's crazy. Yeah. And they're still in jail. Yeah. Yeah.

It's pretty, I mean. I mean, look, there's a lot of things though. Like, okay, let's say the abuse is real. Yeah. Do I think a 22 year old needed to go kill his parents? Like to say that the abuse is real isn't even saying they shouldn't be in jail. And I'm not saying they should or shouldn't. I don't have a position, but.

It's not like you believe the abuse is real and therefore what they did is fine. It's not like those are the two options. Either you think they're cold-blooded killers and they weren't abused or they were abused and they shouldn't be in jail for murdering their parents. I think there's a third option, which is like, I understand why they maybe did it. I don't think that's a course of action people are allowed to take in the response of abuse. Yeah.

Well, either do I, but I also think your sentence should be reflective of that. Like, do I think those two are a danger to society? No, I do not. Mm-hmm.

Right. Based on their experience. And like same with Gypsy Rose. Yeah. I mean, she is out now, but like same situation. But I don't think the policy is if you've been abused, you get to kill. You're allowed to kill. You don't get to be judge, executioner, whatever, all those things. Well, I don't think so either. I think that you should have to serve some time, but I don't think you should have to serve a life sentence. Your whole life. Yeah, yeah. We agree.

If the whole point is to keep people like. Dangerous people. Dangerous people off the street. This is not that. Yeah. But we get really mixed up about what the point of jail and retribution is. Yes. Anyway, Sarah, there's only I only have two facts for her. OK, hit me with the two facts. OK. One is the Carrie Fisher quote. She said a Carrie Fisher quote and said she probably was going to mess it up.

But it's if my life wasn't funny, it would just be true. And that's unacceptable. I had the privilege of hanging out with her one time. What was that like? At her house. A friend of mine was really good friends with her, invited me over. And she was very fucking cool. I bet. Yeah. Carrie Fisher. I know. Not Menendez. Menendez. You say it every time.

Menendez? Menendez. Okay. Studio 60 had 22 episodes. We were talking about that. 22 episodes. 22. I loved that show so much. I watched it. Why do you think you loved it? It's Sorkin. Yeah, I'm a sucker for Sorkin. I'm a sucker for Sorkin as well. I'm a blues monster. What's it called? You loved Chandler at the time. Matthew Perry, I love. A spunk machine. Yeah, thank you. That's what you could call a teenage boy.

Yeah. I love Matthew Perry. I love Bradley Whitford. The cast is insane. Amanda Peet. I love Steven Weber. Like, it's... It's dynamite. It's a dynamite cast. I love the, like...

Backstage, quote, like backstage world. Of BTS. Yeah, BTS. Like the newsroom. I loved the newsroom. Same situation. You got me with newsroom. Like behind the scenes of a newsroom. This is behind the scenes of SNL, essentially. Yes. Like what's not to love? I loved it. Yeah, I'm trying to think why I didn't watch it. And I'm guessing because in some weird way, maybe I thought

You're not allowed to do that about SNL? I'm guessing. Yeah, but ironically, the other show that was on at the same time was 30 Rock. I love 30 Rock. Which is definitely, that is SNL. It was SNL? No, I mean, they called it. I mean, it was SNL. Yeah, you're right. I take that all back. Maybe you felt. I think because Tina was doing it. Yeah, you felt like it was allowed because it was Tina. And it was so.

So funny. But I think a lot of people felt that they had to choose. Between those two shows? Yes. They weren't on the same time, though. Wasn't 60 way before? No, 2006 was Studio 60. And I think 30 Rock was probably 2008. 2006. 2006. Yep. Just like I said, 2008. Same time. Same time. Oopsies. Like I said. Oopsies.

I kind of remember it specifically because I was in college and I had this professor. I was like, oh, I love Studio 60. And he was like, oh, 30 Rock is so much better. Oh. And I was like, that's really different. Yeah. Yeah. One's a one hour drama. Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. So I think some people like my professor, shout out George Contini. Well, that's it. That's everything. Yeah. That's our time for today. Okay.

The bell's about to ring. Okay. Well, thanks for having me on your show. Thanks for letting me bring my prop. Just put your homework in the bin on your way out. Okay, great. I will do that. All right. Did you ever do homework? Did you do your homework? Yes. Oh, some people don't. I didn't do all of it. See?

I might have relied on just testing well at times. God, what are you trying to do? Why are you trying to gaslight me? Oh my God. All right. Well, as I thought,

I did it in college, all of it. Never missed any homework in college. Do you have homework in class? Yeah, no, not really. You have papers. I have so many papers. That's homework. It's not really because papers is like a third of your grade. You have homework. You have a syllabus. You got to go home and read section. There's a lot of reading. That's your homework. That's, okay. Your coursework. Yeah, sure. Fine. Sure, okay. So you didn't do homework and that's clear. No, I did some of my homework and really hoped I would test well. All right, I love you. Love you. Bye.

Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

What's up, guys? It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season. And let me tell you, it's too good. And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay? Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation. And I don't mean just friends. I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox. The list goes on. And now I have my own YouTube channel.

So follow, watch, and listen to Baby, This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch full episodes on YouTube and you can listen to Baby, This is Kiki Palmer early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery. And where are my headphones? Because it's time to get into it. Holla at your girl!