Kimberley Quinlan (on anxiety and self-compassion)
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Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Rather and I'm joined by Lily Padmon. Hello. Hello. What if it was Padmon? I'm sure somewhere it is. Well, a lot of people think it's... Pari that it doesn't like.

Yeah. Your name. Yeah. We have a neighbor who is Indian. And he has a pretty big beef with my name. He's also, we got to add, he's one of the smartest human beings I've ever met in my life. He has like a double doctorate in finance and something else crazy. Physics or something. He was a professor at UCLA, right? Yeah. Yeah. He's awesome. And we like talking, but every now and then he'll just be like, ah.

Like, I just can't. It's not right. I can't with your name. He wants to know what it really was, basically. No, he knows what it was. And it was, should I say it? Yes. It was pudmanabin. Pudmanabin. That reaction, that very American reaction. No, I just like that. Say it again. Pudmanabin. Pudmanabin. Yeah. And it's hard. No, it's great. Well, it is hard for an English. It's fun. It sounds like alliteration. Sure, but.

And a lot of, I think, you know, there's many Padmans because it does get shortened, obviously. And my grandfather shortened it, not my dad. And I think Pari thinks my dad did. And I kept saying, that's my grandfather. And he said, yeah, but why wouldn't it be Padma? He wanted it to be Padma. That would be, that's a compromise he could live with. But Padma's a first name.

We know a Padma. We interviewed a Padma. That's right. Padma Lakshmi. Go check it out. In the archives. Listen, go to the archives. I implore everyone to go to the archives and just dabble. You only got to listen to a couple minutes of an episode and do that three or four times a week. Okay. Our guest today is Kimberly Quinlan.

And Kimberly, as we'll explain in the episode, but I think it's fun to know you can go on into it, is that when we first got criticism for how we were talking about OCD, warranted, we were wrong. Yeah. And I looked up people that were well-versed in this space. She's who I found. We invited her on and she has so much integrity. She said, you really want to talk to my friend Allegra. Yes, yes.

She's awesome. That was such a great episode. It's in the archives. Check it out. Even a couple minutes. So it's Kimberly. Listen to the whole thing of that one. That one's so good. Yes. Absolutely. Also, you know what I was thinking? This is totally off basis, but we had Brody and Kristen on way before the social phenomena. I know. I like being ahead. Of the show. But I want people now to, I feel like if we released it right now, it would be so exciting. Re-release? Re-release.

I think we should do a re or just post about it. Yeah. Or just if you're watching this, go back. Kimberly is a licensed marriage and family therapist, a public speaker, a podcast host, and she is the founder of CBT school and online.

Psycho education platform where she offers support and research-based education products to those who cannot access correct care. Her podcast, which is great, is called Your Anxiety Toolkit. And she covers, the topics are endless. Yeah. This was fun. We got into a lot of interesting topics. And we took a test, which we love taking a test. Yeah, we live for tests. Please enjoy Kimberly Quinlan.

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This is kind of a newer look for you. A polo shirt. Pink polo. Yeah. Matching socks, I see. No socks. Striped gray. Okay. Everyone's accounted for. Outfits have been checked. We're going to take a test today. Yeah.

Which I'm so excited about. Me too. Did Monty already tell you we like to do these in the fact check? I know, yeah. And she was saying when we took blood and stuff that that was fun, so. We've done like the personality test. We've done the Enneagram. Yeah. We've done the sorting hat for Potter. Hogwarts. Have you done the sorting hat? Mm-mm. You haven't? Only at the Warner Brothers. Oh, you put the hat on there. On the tour. Yeah. What were you assigned? I think I would say, oh, my son's going to be so mad. Because he's...

Actually, I don't remember. Oh, my God. That's how important it is. Then you're probably a Hufflepuff. I'm just kidding. A lot of people get really mad when I do that. So now I think it's funny. You have to forgive me because I've started the Harry Potter thing in the last month, maybe. With your child? Yes. You have a son? I do. How old? He's nine. Oh, he's nine. We have a nine-year-old, too. He's late for the Harry Potter game, but we're in it now. That feels right. Yeah, that's a good age. Our nine-year-old's already done it, but that's only because we have an 11-year-old. Yeah, well, I have a 13-year-old, and she...

No. Didn't care? No. How about Swift? Oh, yeah. We just started that. Only recently did we start that, too. Because if she didn't get drawn into Potter or Taylor Swift, now I'm thinking this should be on the DSM. Yeah. This must be some kind of pathology. Yeah, I was just telling how difficult it is to be a parent who's a therapist. Does it make it harder or easier? So much harder. You think so? Tell me why. Well, number one, parenting is hard, period. Yeah.

It's no joke. I was saying, no one told me it was going to be this hot, and I'm a therapist. What? I think it's a little hotter because you have read the DSM. Right. And I think it's also hotter because I feel that internal pressure that I'm supposed to raise these totally- Emotionally regulated- It would reflect badly on you if you turned out some maladaptive. What kind of therapist can't create perfect children? Yeah. Which there's no such thing.

And there's already so you've got like triple whammy pressure because you've got just being a mom. So the requirements that you're perfect are already through the roof. Yeah. And then you're supposed to have some upper hand with your knowledge set. Yeah. Yeah, I get that because I feel myself doing it. You know, they'll exhibit a behavior for 35 seconds.

You know, like, oh, geez, I think they're a narcissist. Oh, geez, I think they have a borderline personality. Oh, no. I do that as a non-therapist, but I'm pretty good at going like bullshit. Oh, yeah. Well, I think that

That's the beauty is if you're really clued into it, you get to just let them be humans. But I think that is what makes it hard because you're like, it's their journey. They get to do it. That's where I think I have to pump the brakes. And divorcing or parsing out your own ego and identity in it is so complicated because we're all inclined to project onto strangers. Now you add in, well, this person is half me, so I have half a right to actually project. Yeah.

You really get caught in that. For sure. It's a constant self-check. But also one of the coolest growth experiences

of my life. Thousand percent. Because you have to then recognize, oh, right, this is my issue. And then you go, well, we don't really have our arms fully around this issue, do we? Because we're projecting this onto a little person. Yeah, and the story isn't finished yet. Okay, so let's start with our introduction because I think it's kind of fun because I just kind of want to applaud your character and your integrity, which is we had gotten some criticism for how we were talking about O.

And then so I just kind of did a perfunctory search of who's popular in the space. And I came up with your name. And then I reached out to you on Instagram and I invited you on to talk about OCD. And you were like, yeah, that sounds great. And then at some point, I guess you probably discovered that Allegra was one of the critical voices, turned over your opportunity to be here to her. Yeah. And she did a great job.

She sure did. She needed to do that. She's got such life experience. So she nailed it. Yeah, it was awesome. I'm really happy we just had an expert on them. I'm really happy it was her. And so I just think it's really cool that, I mean, I'm not presuming you wanted to be on the show so bad, but I know if Jimmy Fallon called me to be on and I was like, you know, I think John Krasinski is probably better as a guest for you. Yeah. I just think that shows some integrity. Well, I

I love Allegra and she does a lot of advocacy work. And so we spoke about it and yeah, it was absolutely the right thing. I truly believe my turn will happen when it's right. And here I am. Yeah.

And so you're a marriage and family therapist, but additionally, you do have expertise in other areas as well. Yes. OCD being one of them. Anxiety disorders. Anxiety disorders. The overarching work that I do is around self-compassion. It's woven into everything I do. So I see very severe anxiety disorders, but all of my personal work and the work I want to put out into the world is around that.

Okay. And so I'm also going to exploit you and make you talk about eating disorders a bit, because I would say tied with OCD, we get a lot of people requesting we have an eating disorder. Well, I had an eating disorder. I'm your girl. Oh, okay. Wonderful. So I would love to dip into that a little bit as well. When are we taking the test? Now or later? Yeah, let's do that. Would you like to start with that? Well, sure. I can do anything. I think we should jump into the test. It would be fun to take the test. Let me sort of...

preface this. So there are two ways in which we can capture someone's degree of self-compassion. We could just talk about it and sort of hear your inner thinking and I could make a subjective assumption or I can do what we're going to do today, which is called the self-compassion scale. We're doing the short form. The long form is 24. We're doing the 12. But research has shown that the 12 question is as a

Okay, great. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to ask you both questions. You're going to give me a number out of one to five. One is almost never and five is almost always. And I'll document it and then I'll just need like three minutes to calculate. She has a calculator. Oh my goodness. On her phone? Look at this.

No, a real one. It's my kids. Look how cute it is. All right. What I would encourage you to do is don't overthink this. Oh, good luck. This is not a diagnosis. And we're today talking about self-compassion, which is around treating yourself kindly. We're not here to beat yourself up about how much you beat yourself up. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, we'd love to do that. This is a non-judgment zone. You're taking away our hobby. I know. All right. So here's question number one. When I fail at something important to me, I become consumed by feelings of inadequacy.

So, Dax, five being almost always and one being almost never. Okay, great. So, what we never have is the person administering the questions present. Yes, we can ask questions. Because here's, I think, the first mental hurdle for me. After you say don't overthink. Historically or today? I would prefer you give me sort of a range in the last...

month. Okay. And if you prefer to read things, my husband is a reader of questions. I'm dyslexic, so this is ideal for me. Okay. Don't overthink it, but it's just funny because I've changed a lot over time. Yeah. Oh no, this is not a life scale. So this is more like within the last week to month, how you doing? Okay, great. So one is never, five is always? Five is almost always and almost never is one. When I fail at something important to me, I become consumed by feelings of inadequacy. You want to go first, ladies first? Yeah, you go.

- Okay. Tall people first. I'm gonna go three. - Five. Okay. Number two. I try to be understanding and patient towards those aspects of my personality I don't like. One is almost never, five is almost always. - One.

This test has already made me start bleeding. Rob, can we see that? What do you mean? I just randomly started bleeding. Oh, gosh. I cut my finger cutting my hair last night. I've never actually had that happen before. But I took the band-aid off and it was fine and now it just starts. There's no question for that one. All right, number three. When something painful happens, I try to take a balanced view of the situation. Four. I try.

I try. Try means, try is a good word. Also situations operative. Four. Okay. Number four. When I'm feeling down, I tend to feel like most other people are probably happier than I am. One. That's almost never. Yeah, I don't think that. Same, same. Yeah.

Okay. I try to see my failings as a part of the human condition. Try to. I know. Try is tricky. Do I try to or do I? Your own personal failings, not everyone's. No, I'm going to go I never do that, whatever that is. One. Yeah. I'm a piece of shit and here it is again. Two. Three.

When I'm going through a very hard time, I give myself the caring and tenderness I need. One. Three. We're halfway. But hold on. I'm loving this. Me too. Yeah. I have zero anxiety. I can bring out the 24 if you need me to. Oh, my God. We want the 48 pack. Okay. When something upsets me, I try to keep my emotions in balance. God, try it. Five.

Four. Five. Yeah, five. One.

Two. I'm disapproving and judgmental about my own flaws and inadequacies. Five. Yeah, five. I'm intolerant and impatient towards those aspects of my personality I don't like. I'm tolerant or intolerant? Intolerant and impatient. Yeah.

Yeah, four. I just thought of a very funny thing. What if like every time one of us went first, the other one changed it? I know. I go three and you go three. I go two. Actually...

I'm more too. It also is fun when we do, because normally we're doing you or me. Yeah. And you're usually administering it. Yeah. I like to administer. She's an administrator at heart. Did you try to evaluate mine too? Sure. Did you think I was right? Well, what's fun is I was realizing as well as I know you, there are some things I don't know about you. Sure. Were you thinking that at all? Or you were like, all right, nailed everyone. You seemed right. Yeah. You seemed right. But there were a couple where it was like, I wouldn't have had a guess. Hmm.

Interesting. Like, are other people having a great time around me? Right. I don't really know how you process that. Yeah. I assume everyone's miserable in general. Yeah. I just don't think about the way other people are feeling when I'm doing anything, really. Other people in the world that aren't a part of it.

Right. Do you have any questions before I rate your scales? I know good students have questions, so I'm trying to think of one, but I don't have one. No, we're good. All right, let's do this. Okay. How do you guys think you went? Let's hear more about the metric. Or maybe the spectrum. Yeah. So it's actually out of one to five, just like you scaled. Someone who measures low in self-compassion is between one and 2.49. Someone who is moderate is 2.5 to 3.5.

And someone who is high in self-compassion is 3.51 to 5. I would just like to say, I think I'm not very compassionate to myself. I think I'm moderate. So both of you actually came out with exactly the same score. Maybe that's why this works. But in different areas. So there are six components that we break this down to. So you both got the response for today. It could be different, but right now you're at 2.25 each.

which puts you both in the low category. In the upper low. Okay. Okay. Cusp. Again, this is just for reflection and sort of to see...

Hmm. That's interesting. Let's take a look at why. So if we looked at self-kindness, because one of the subscales here is self-kindness, how kind you are to yourself. Monica, you actually were in the moderate, but Dax, you were in the low. Okay. Well, congratulations, Monica. Thanks. Yeah. So that's how kind you are to yourself in the face of adversity. We're not talking about how kind you are when you kick butt.

Right? Right. It's not about that. It's sort of more about how do you sit by your side when things go to shit? So the second is self-judgment. How much do you judge yourself for the highs and the lows of life? You both got 1.5. Okay. So we really nailed that one. Which is low. Yeah.

The cool thing about all this is once you know, then you know what to work on. Then you know where you might first be like, okay, I'm going to work on this one little area. Or you might choose not to. Some people are like, I'm cool. I'm good just to know it and I'm good to go. The next one is the common humanity. And that's what you guys were talking about before. When you're suffering, how do you see yourself as this person?

this being a normal part of the human condition. How do you see that it's a human thing to suffer? It's a human thing to go through hard things. All humans fail. Humans mess up some days. That's what common humanity is around. And you both got 1.5. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

I'm not saying how we're going to get up to two. This is where you go well. The next step is isolation. So when things are hard, how much do you isolate? How do you think it's just you're the only one and that no one else is having this problem, that you're the only quote unquote loser in the area? You both did really well. You're in moderate there.

Okay. Right? That makes sense. So here we go. We're on the upswing. The next part is mindfulness. And you both scored very well in mindfulness. That's being aware of your suffering, being in touch with, oh, I'm having a hard time. How am I doing? What's going on? So Dax, you got 4.5 and Monica, you got 4. Oh.

This is the one I really love the most. And I find this is one of the ones that can really help us to understand someone. The last part is over-identification, which is when you're going through something difficult. How much do you make it about yourself? How do you put it on yourself as an identity? Like if you make a mistake that you're someone who's a total loser. Flawed. Yeah, it's very shame related. And so this one, Dax, you got two and Monica, you got one for that one.

Yeah, that tracks. I don't like making mistakes. So that's your results. We can also see both sides of this. You're very successful. Often people rely on a lot of these pieces to drive them into success.

And sometimes it works. I'm so glad you're bringing this up. I would be interested in how many people have a similar story, which is without that, what would be the motivation, right? I see a lot of very, very successful people in the industry here in LA or very, very high in the tech field. They're at the top of their game and they have relied on a lot of the things that you guys were rating for that got them to the top. But at some point,

it starts to not work anymore and things start to break down around them or they're in relation with people where it's creating conflict. Or you start questioning, is it worth it? Yeah. Right? Like, great, I got all the cash and prizes and whistles and I'm not very happy. So it's like existential. Yeah. And it's a really hard experience, especially here in LA. Everyone around you, when you're famous, everyone loves you, but you don't. That's a really...

conflicting place to live. And so often when people come to me, they're usually having panic attacks, got some other anxiety disorder or a mood disorder like depression. And then we start to look at these things served you in some pretty tricky situations. And can

Can we come up with some alternative solutions that will still keep you in the game, but don't give you those consequences? I have long thought about could I get to that same goal without the same catalyst? And it's such a leap of faith. Well, here's the thing is research shows that self-criticism and self-judgment, which you guys do a lot of, it seems,

actually has higher rates of procrastination, reduced levels of motivation, higher rates of burnout, end up creating less productivity. So it makes sense. You would be like, oh, you piece of shit. You've got to do this. It makes you sit down. So you go, okay, it must be working. I'll keep going. But with too much use of that,

It actually creates all these negative consequences, which then we go, well, it must be me. It's me that I'm not getting my book written. I've written a book, one of the hardest things I've ever done in my entire career. Bestseller, congrats. In my field, not like a New York Times bestseller, but in my field, yes. But you beat yourself up. So then when you're beating yourself up, you start to procrastinate and you start to feel like crap and you don't want to write. And then you go, well, I'm a piece of shit because I can't write. And then it's a cycle. Yeah.

We've got to dispel the myths of these behaviors and see that there's another way. What is it? What is the other way? What's the other way? Well, it's simply treating yourself differently.

like you would treat a loved one if they were in that situation. I'm glad you're saying that. The only window into my awareness of my self-abuse and flagellation is simply being an AA, which is it occurred to me at one point, I have listened to, at this point, thousands of men share a character defect that they have, or even an action that came out of that character defect. And I

go like, yeah, you were scared and you stole. Yeah, you blank and you cheated. Yes. And you punch somebody like I can listen to anyone else's thing and have total understanding and compassion and go like, yeah, that was a situation this happened. But if I'm guilty of the same thing, that's just not what I think. But luckily, I have had the experience of regularly hearing people say stuff that I also suffer from and having total acceptance. And when you said that to your friend.

He didn't get caught up in shame. He felt a sense of relief of like, I'm not alone. Dax can see the good in me. I'm not being excommunicated from. And therefore he is more likely to go and do good things for himself. And it's the same for us. Now, the thing to remember here is it's easier said than done. If you've beaten yourself up for your whole life, talking to yourself like your best friend might feel like a massive leap. Some people go gross. I don't want to talk to myself. That is not good.

how I talk to myself. But what we can then start to think of is what would feel good to you? I guess for me, the fear is if I'm not hard on myself, then I'm not being reflective. You know what I mean? I know exactly what you're saying because as you were saying it, I was thinking why I can say that to another person, not me, which is

To do that to me would be like granting permission for it to continue. Oh, I guess this isn't a big deal if we're not beating ourselves up over it. I get is a paradox because I don't think the stranger needs more abuse. They've clearly given themselves enough. Yeah. This is why I love talking about this. This exact conundrum. Because here's the thing. Self-compassion is not letting yourself off the hook.

I treat anxiety disorders. My job is to help people face their worst fear. You have panic disorder and you don't want to fly an airplane. My job is to get you on an airplane. Whether I fly with you or you do it alone, that's my job. You're afraid of needles. My job is to get you to go and have needles. The work here is that not reflecting isn't an act of kindness. The act of kindness is the reflection, but doing it in a way that is kind and

You can still do the hard thing, but do it kindly. - Yeah. - When I play soccer or volleyball or anything with my oldest daughter,

Every time she makes a mistake, sorry. And I go, love, you don't have to say sorry. You haven't done anything to me. You just know now to do it differently. She can practice and doesn't have to feel guilty when she's failing. No, and that is the work. Let's say we don't do something well. Let's say I totally screw this up today. Fingers crossed. That would be so exciting. The self-compassionate act would be to reflect. How did it go? Yeah.

What went well? What didn't go well? What could I have done differently? We still would reflect, but we would do it from a place of it's okay that we make mistakes and what can we learn from this? That's the piece. Depersonalizing it, I imagine, would be helpful, which is like...

An interview needs this. Did I have my information? Did I have blank? Not am I a lazy piece of shit? Yeah. But then it gets into like, did they like me? It gets very muddy there because that's not anything that you have any control over. Right. But a kind act is to give permission to people to think what they like to think. I fully give you permission to have your thoughts about me. That's okay. And then my responsibility, all that I have control over is how I tend to

those emotions I have to feel. So self-compassion also isn't like happy feelings all day long and it's unicorns and it's roses. It's also going, okay, they may or may not have liked me. Maybe you straight up said, I don't like you, Kimberly. Yeah. And I get to have my feelings. You get to have yours. And my job is to be gentle

with the feelings I have about you not liking me. Then everyone gets to have their experience and I'm not afraid of any emotion because I've had them all and they're all safe. Okay, I have a very specific thing that was just recent and I want to know if this was adaptive or maladaptive. So there was a long, long phase in my life where I would go on a talk show and I want to be great and

And then on my ride home, if I didn't hit whatever mark, you know, I would spin out about that and I'd be very upset. I just did a week of press in New York. By the way, I'm going to add my wife is now left to go do a week of press. And I was like sharing with her. I don't know if this is compartmentalization or compassion. I was like, yeah, I'm going to go do these shows. They're going to be what they're going to be.

I'm really not even going to know about it. If they're terrible, I likely won't even see anyone that saw it. I just like unplugged from the results of it. I'm like, I'm just going to go do it. And it doesn't matter. I'm still a dad. You know, I still have a great business. My life is totally fine. Whether I shit the bed on those or not. I,

I didn't really do any post-game evaluation after it, and it felt great. And so I don't know if I am using the tools you're talking about or if I just decided to ignore the results. You here would rate high in all...

All of those self-kindness, you reduce the self-judgment. There was a common humanity there of like humans get to make mistakes. They get to just show up and be themselves. That's common humanity. Like we're all in this together. Somebody else is sitting across from you, interviewing you, also getting to be a human being that has good and bad days. You didn't isolate yourself. You talked to your partner about it.

and you normalize this is a big deal. You were mindful. You didn't over identify that this means that I'm a good person or a bad person. You nailed it. Okay. Okay. Okay, good. More of that. In the wake of that, I was like, God, you could really probably apply that to everything. I would. You're in this great opportunity where you're like, I have all the good things. For those who are listening and they don't have all the good things and it is a big deal,

I would still use the same skills. I actually had to practice this this morning because you guys are incredible. This is a big deal, but me not using the skills that we're talking about today is only going to make me feel bad about this. So for my experience of today, it can be paradoxical in that this is a big deal and I still get to do the skills and be kind and let it be and allow it to be imperfect.

those two opposing things can happen at the same time. Well, you're now bringing up something that's probably quite interesting, which is I think most of us tend to do this work post something. And it sounds like you did it preemptively. I'm lucky I've studied this for a long time. And I'm not always great at it either. But yes, the work that I have people practice, particularly if you have a lot of anxiety,

I always kind of talk about it like a sandwich. I call it a compassion sandwich, which I know is not that cool. But the meat of the work is facing your fears. But the bread is the before and after of compassion when you face those fears. So you be gentle and you use these skills before. You practice compassion during. And then afterwards, a big piece of this work is celebrating that you did a hard thing. Ah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Forget how you did. You just did a hard thing. You did a hard thing at the end of the day. And then you can say, what did I learn? What didn't go well? What did? What would I do differently? But not from a place of like, you idiot.

But more of like, OK, interesting note to self with more reps of this, I'll get better. Well, now there's a part of having kids that's really helpful and wonderful, right? Because when you're watching your own children, I keep trying to tell them this. What I'm impressed by is not whether you were good or bad in the play. I'm so blown away. You put yourself out there. You know what you're proud of with your kids. And it's I don't give a shit if they're number one at anything. I'm just blown away when they put themselves out there. Yeah.

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If you don't feel like it's too personal, I would love to know in practice, what does your pre-interview look like? Do you have mantras? Do you write anything? Is it meditation? Is it too private to you? No, I'm an open book. There's nothing I don't talk about. For me, it's in Australia, we call it a seesaw. I think America, you call it a teeter-totter. I think we do both. It's a seesaw of my purpose. My motto for life is to love as hard as I can.

That's my whole goal in life. So I teeter-totter between I'm just going to love on you guys and pour love into you. And then on the other side, also pour love into me. So it's this sort of like, I hope that I get to love on you guys. And then maybe someone listening will feel a sense of aha. That would be great. And then like you talked about before,

Where's the anxiety in my body? Okay, it's in my chest. All right. It's okay that it's there. It's not dangerous. I'm going to let it be there. It may or may not interrupt your session with them, but that's okay. It is a lot of talking to myself, but it's more, I always think of it like, have you ever held a baby chicken? Boy.

I don't think so. I don't think so. Very fragile. Oh, you got it. You haven't lived until you've held a baby. Oh my God, this is great advice. Get your hands on a baby chicken. That's it. That's all I have to say. Unexpected. It's just their bones are so small. Well, that's the thing. Yeah. It's like holding yourself with a baby chicken. You wouldn't grab them and crush them because they're fragile. They're important. They matter. You wouldn't want to hurt them. And so it's a little bit of like, I'm the baby chicken. It's scary. This is a scary thing. But it's a lot of that.

Tea to tottering. Okay. So since your main thrust is self-compassion, do you see it as somewhat of a universal tool for all these many different, they're called disorders, right? I'm not being pejorative by saying disorders. Yeah. Do you see that as a thread that kind of links all these things? Because I was reading an LA Times article that you were a part of, which was- Orthorexia. Orthorexia.

One of the women who suffered from it, I found fascinating that she started as OCD as a child. So ding, ding, ding me. Then went into addiction and then got sober and then in sobriety became orthorexic. Which is, that's a subtype of an eating disorder. It's sort of an obsession with the purity of

food. Or clean food. The cleanliness of food or the contamination of food. So it's about eliminating food groups, having it being all pure or all organic, maybe spending a lot of time with preoccupation on preparing the foods or having it be as uncooked as possible. Raw, non-GMO, paleo, any one of these very popular. Sugar-free, dairy-free.

It looks different for each person, but that's what orthorexia is. It's also now better diagnosed under what we call avoidant and restrictive food intake disorder. It's...

Even here in L.A., it's big because wherever there's a culture where there's sort of like a morality around food, like it's a good food or a bad food or clean or it's not clean, that's where it can get really out of control. Yeah, I've heard different religion professors talk about this as falling so beautifully into a religion because it does have this underlying good, evil, bad, impure, pure, the

The woman in the article found herself crying uncontrollably in the produce section of the grocery store debating between chard and kale. Oh, wow.

Whereas I guess like all addictions or disorders, it's such a spectrum. I'm on this spectrum. Like I relate to this. I don't see it having caused any wreckage yet in my life. And I'm certainly not in the grocery store crying yet. And I'm not isolated from it. But I can relate to

the evaluation. Yeah, me too. Okay. Is that just coincidental that she was OCD than addict? They're very related. Eating disorders and OCD have a very big crossover. Some people even now are sort of speculating that they're very much the same thing. I

I had an eating disorder. I treat obsessive compulsive disorder. I always felt like my eating disorder was a form of OCD. It looked and felt exactly like my clients in that there was an obsession and a fear that was intolerable. And it was so overwhelming that I had to engage in these very repetitive activities.

constrictive controlling behaviors to reduce or eliminate that discomfort. And then I got stuck in a cycle. So, okay, that worked. I tend to manage my anxiety with that. I'll just do more of that. And all of a sudden you've eliminated food groups. You're malnourished. Everybody in your family is worried about you. You haven't got the energy to function. It can ruin your life.

I have to imagine it leads to isolation as well. The same way addiction does. It's like, well, you're not going out to meet anyone for dinner at this point. You're not having anyone over for dinner. You can't go to someone's house for dinner. And you're by yourself eating your egg whites and feta. That's my current thing. Egg white, feta, and elk. I know.

The elk piece is so disturbing. I know why that one's triggering. Tell me. Is it because Joe Rogan eats a lot of elk? Oh, no, I didn't know that. Oh, there is a mildly political aspect to the diet stuff, which is fascinating. Is it like ground? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of a magic. Here we go. You ready? It's magic and pure.

It's super, super high protein and low fat, but it doesn't taste low fat. It's got a robust taste, yet it's insane amount of protein. Like lamb, maybe. Yeah. Love lamb, too. Bison, you know, anything really high, high protein and kind of low fat that tastes good, I love. I guess to me, from the outside, because yeah, Dax eats very specifically and

He has psoriatic arthritis. So there's a reason for how it started. But I do think it's gotten a little. So that's in the article. A lot of people that have this clean, pure diet to explain it to others and get the heat off of them. They'll claim to have a bunch of allergies they don't have. Yeah. So if you had read that, you might go like, Jesus Christ, this psoriatic arthritis thing. Bullshit. Right.

Yeah. This is you selling us that you don't have that condition. I thousand percent had it. I've had surgeries. I guess I could have gone that far. I've had like joints lock up and fuse and have to get them corrected. But it's like anything else. Yeah. It gets sneaky.

It's very sneaky. Drinking works like the drug worked for a long, long time before it stopped working. And so even I can experience like, oh, wow, I did cut gluten out of my thing and I feel better. Oh, that was a good positive reward blueprint of the brain. Yeah. But to talk about that article, you asked about the addiction piece. I don't often see people, not that this isn't a case for some people, but not often do I see someone who is active in their addiction with orthorexia because they kind of bounce

against each other. But post addiction recovery, where they're like, okay, I'm going to clean up my life. I'm going to stop using. I'm also going to start eating well. I'm going to start exercising. And then like you're talking about, then it gets a little slippery into, well, this is another way in which I can control my life and I can feel powerful and I can manage my emotions by being preoccupied on this thing. I see that much more than I would with an active addiction. Yeah. I'm a

Big fan of the word regulation. Like you figured out another way to regulate your internal state with something external, which is always kind of destined for implosion at some point, I suppose. But and I think this is a bit self-compassionate of myself. So like I accept I'm an addict. That is how this boy operates. If I get a good result from something, I will repeat it until it's dead. I've accepted that's who I am. And so instead of me trying to fight that that's who I am, I just have to aim this crazy line

laser beam at things that don't really create wreckage for me. So yes, on the outside, you could go, if you look at how I exercise and eat, right, there's clearly something going on there. I would agree. But for me, it's like it hasn't led to secrecy, shame, isolation. My family doesn't care. My friends don't care. There's no downside to it.

So like, how do you feel in general about embracing your this way and just trying to figure out an outlet for that that doesn't lead to the shame and the guilt? 100%. The most common and best self-compassion question is, does this help the long-term me? Is this good for me? Is this what I need to be able to make the next step?

step, whatever that looks like, the next step today or the next step in 10 years, whatever that might be. So if it's working for you and it's working for your relationships and it's not causing you distress, it's effective. And if it's effective, go for it. What's right for one person might not be right for the other person. I always love watching the Olympics.

and being like, what does that person think versus what does this person think? Because their self-talk is going to be different. And what works for one person mightn't work for the other. And so everyone gets to pick. You see a lot of athletes have a lot of neuroses, a lot of compulsions and routines and superstitions.

And again, we would say it's working for them. Who am I to tell somebody what's right or wrong for them? Is it working for them in their goal or is it working against them? And that's the question. And yeah. And are they miserable in the pursuit of this or are they happier? Some of them are. I've heard interviews where they'll say, I don't even like this sport.

this is the goal I set for myself and I'll do whatever I have to, and then I'll reassess. And so I think that's where we all get to give them permission to do what they want. Doesn't mean it's healthy. Right. I have a question about eating disorders really quick before we get fully off of that. What are you supposed to do if you notice that in somebody else? We know for one thing that

Telling them to do something different probably doesn't work. Here's a question. If you had an eating disorder, what would you want them to say to you? Well, I guess the goal, if you're in that, is getting away with it would be my guess. So I think anyone saying anything would be a problem, probably. Well, all we can do is come from a place of loving kindness. So for me, it would be

Hey, I'm noticing ABC. I'm noticing the bison. Because you're buying a lot of bison. I'm noticing this is happening. How is that working for you? Is there other things going on for you? How can I support you? Because that's where they're going to be receptive to your help.

Whereas if I came in and was like, you're eating too much bison and I don't like it and I'm worried about you and it's getting compulsive and that's me assuming my ideas for what's right for you. No one wants to hear that. So it's asking, coming from a place of care and genuine interest in their wellness and having a conversation. I could hear it in just the way you were saying. I was almost waiting to hear you also say like, how do you feel on this? You know, like, how's it going? Yeah. The thing about eating disorders is

I had anorexia. And my husband used to say, you know, I used to love when your body looked this way compared to this way. It meant nothing. Of course. It didn't even seep in 1% of my body. In my mind, I was like, that sounds terrible.

terrifying. That's all I could think of is, oh, that's okay for you to think. But in my mind, I would be a complete disgusting person. You could have told me that all day. You're right. Because if someone said to me, you look much better with boogers hanging out of your nose. I'm like, well, great. You're a one-off. That's nuts. I know for sure.

That doesn't look good. And for you, it's as real as boogers in your nose that you would be ex-white. It's just not about anyone else. It is how you are viewing yourself. So you wouldn't even say like it's a one-off. You'd just be like, I don't like it. It'd be easy to reject. Most often eating disorders are...

Partially about your body, but also nothing to do with your body anyway. It's about how you feel, your identity. There's so many other components to it. In some cases, there were times where I'm like, yeah, probably I would look better, but that would require me to do things I'm not willing to do. You'd be unhappy doing the things. Yeah, I'd be terrified. It was horrible.

The pop culture thing you hear a lot is that, yeah, eating disorders are about control. Are the anti-correlated to moments when you feel totally out of control? We don't know. Yes, that is very much a core theme in eating disorder recovery is your relationship with control. But-

There's so many other impactful pieces of it, whether you have BDD, body dysmorphic disorder, because if that's the case, that needs to be treated and looked at as well. Is there any trauma or an abuse in your family? Your relationship with your own emotions and your body is a big piece. How you actually can be in your body is a big piece of it as well. Societal impact of people being praised for being thin their whole life. There's so many things that need to be looked at in eating disorder recovery.

Okay, I have been defensive. I find that the eating disorder commenters...

And I don't know what percentage they make up of the community of people with eating disorders who are engaged in the fight. No, they have an eating disorder or are in recovery, I would imagine. If we have someone on the show mention a diet or we did a show that was two different friends. One was 317. One was 225. They were racing to 270 for cash and prizes. We'll get lots of you're perpetuating diet culture. The reason I'm defensive and angry by that very predictable common outcome is like I'm an addict.

I'm not on people's social media pages who are enjoying drinking and doing drugs in the way they do and saying you're promoting a disease. I have a disease. They don't. It's not their responsibility to promote.

making sure they don't trigger my disease. Like that is all on me. So my issue is like all the people that are screaming that diet culture is being perpetuated when I just think there's no marketing campaign like the booze marketing campaign. But I'm not mad at those people. 70 percent of people are drinking fine. So help me understand why that's happening and how could I be more compassionate? I totally understand what you're saying, by the way. I think that

the piece there, and I think it's often more placed on females, is there is a very heavy emphasis where women are told the way their body should look. And I think there's a rebellion against that. And I think that's what it is. Now, that doesn't mean I would go on and post on social media about it. I tend to prefer to advocate one-on-one than to advocate in the comment section. But I think that a lot of the time people are trying to advocate for the fact that

when I was a teenager, I don't know how old you are, but being stick thin was really cool. Having no butt and no breasts were the thing you were going for. And I think people were really pissed off at that because now, you know, bodies should be curvy and the Kardashians and that's the newer body thing. But back then, I think people are mad at

the expectations that are put on people. And therefore, they're expressing that on the internet. That's a key, the way you just phrased it. And I agree, that is what people are saying. And obviously, we are motivated by our culture and our society. But put on you versus I put it on myself. I hear a lot of comments, we're going to get gendered. I've had this long standing opinion where it's like, women aren't responding to what men want. Women are responding to what women consume and want.

And men are responding to what men consume and want. So like I'm getting really muscly. If you pulled women, that's not even the desired state. But I'm a boy trying to be a man and I'm responding to whatever all the men are saying is most mainly. So like when you say stick thin was popular, I acknowledge that there's like the Kate Moss trajectory.

But I don't believe that was driven by men. They're not buying fashion magazines. They don't even know these supermodels exist. That's not the industry. It's a female-driven industry as there's a male-driven supplement industry. And so this notion of we have to look this way to get a mate, I think it lacks a little responsibility. I think we got to look this way to be accepted by our group, which is female. Well, all people.

Yeah. Boys are doing boys. No, no, no. It's not even like I need to look this way to get a mate. It's like I need to look this way to be attractive in general. To be worthy. In this life and to be worthy and lovable. And not lovable necessarily from a partner just in the world. Sure. So it's not really about like, well, men want this and women want this. It's just society is telling us that we need to look this way now.

to be accepted. And I think it depends on the person. There's a lot of people in the eating disorder community that aren't angry about it, too. We hear different perspectives and the loud, the creaky, squeaky wheel gets the oil. But I think, too, from my clients and what I do understand is there are people where they're set plans

Set point is like where you naturally are when you're not on a diet, where your body lands. Their body isn't in that body and they're advocating for bodies being beautiful in whatever set point that they're in. And I think that is a huge piece we're talking about.

is celebrating bodies in any way we can. And I think it's also a part of recovery. Sometimes people in different stages of recovery become advocates. For someone who had an eating disorder, I don't talk about eating disorders that much in my advocacy, on my podcast, in my work. I'm at a different stage in my recovery to where...

I have this other mission. And I'm not saying that those people will move on from their mission. Maybe they're on it. But I know for me, there was a stage where I was really advocating and now it's not as important. I so relate to that. The first five years I was sober, I could have told you anybody in show business that was either sober or in an active addiction. And now I just don't know.

But yeah, I was like, I needed to know who was this and who was that. And a lot of people get an impulse in their first year of sobriety to write a book about it. You feel very motivated. I've just experienced this huge shift. So my next thing is I'm going to write a book about it. I'm going to proselytize and be vigilant about this. That's it.

With any condition, once you've been through it and you've seen how much it's decimated your life, you're mad. And you're mad at whoever and wherever that could have stemmed from. You know, some people who aren't on the internet might be in therapy, like so mad at their mom or so mad at their dad. And that's where they're really focusing. So I think...

Usually when people are mad, it's a response from how much suffering they had. You and I are now both in a very interesting position scientifically, which is these GLP-1 drugs are going to impact both of these things, addiction and eating disorders, in very interesting ways, potentially unforeseeable for a while. Let me just say anecdotally what I've noticed is a lot of people that I know that are on those drugs

who are normal moderate drinkers, stop drinking. Like they're just not even interested in it anymore. I'm like, well, that's very interesting. In our book of AA, the big book, it says science hasn't yet given us a cure, but which opens the door to maybe one day it will. And so that's just really interesting. It is. How is it impacting your line of work?

Not a lot. It's not? No. I mean, there are some, of course, who take it. But again, the work that I do is very much focused on management of anxiety, the practice of compassion. I basically teach people how to face their fear. That's what I do for a living. Yeah. I do wonder, though, with the anxiety piece, it does seem, and for everyone we've heard,

to just quiet the chatter, whether it's food chatter or whatever. I do wonder how it would affect people's anxiety just in that way of like the rumination or they're not able to like turn something off or even OCD when it's these impulses that you can't shut off.

I wonder if it would quiet that. I don't know. I don't know either. Yeah, none of us know. We don't know yet. It's kind of a fascinating time, though. Yeah, it is. In many ways. But so how did you get into recovery? What pushed you? I live in America, but I am Australian. I'm American, too. What age were you when you moved here? I was 19. And I came here just to go skiing. And I met my husband, who is from Michigan. Oh, no!

Yes. And we got married and there you have it. After we'd been married for a couple of years, I was so deep in my eating disorder and I was planning a trip home to Australia. And I had a little meltdown because the menu on the airplane was not loading onto the internet. Oh.

And I needed to see this menu to determine whether I would gain massive amounts of weight on this airplane. That's where I was at. And I had a meltdown and he gently said, I think it's time we get you some help. And to be honest, I was so relieved. I was so relieved. Some people with eating disorders were like, absolutely not. But for me, I was just like, thank you for acknowledging that I cannot do this anymore. So I went to therapy and she made me eat a lot of burritos.

And this is where I got into self-compassion. This was back in the day when you had an iPod. Yeah. And you would download things like podcasts onto the iPad. So I would download a podcast of Tara Brock. Do you know who Tara Brock is? Yes, I love her. Radical acceptance. And the therapist had given me a rule that I was not allowed to go to the gym anymore. Oh, wow. Which made me very mad. It was very, very hard for me because that was one of the compulsions I did. So she agreed I was allowed to take walks. So I'd put Tara Brock in my ears and I would just...

walk and walk and walk still compulsively sure sure sure 16 hours of doing it if you're not going to do it right but something about that shifted in that I would be listening to her she would be talking about compassion and that we're all equal that you're neither good nor bad that you're no better or less than other people and slowly the message got in and

So that was huge for me. But no, I would go back and she would say, okay, now you have to put cheese in your burrito. And now you have to put extra sour cream on your burrito. Wow. And so slowly you just adapted. Yeah. It took a lot of work, but to be honest, I was lucky because I wanted to have a good life. We would go out for like Friday night drinks and I would have a drink. I

and everyone else seemed to be so happy and i felt guilty and i felt scared it just took up so much of my life and i knew there was something better than that yeah i relate to that in addiction which is like it's just so consuming that your real life's playing in the background of your head it's like you're walking through everything you're experiencing everything but what you're thinking in real time is like okay i have three pills in my pocket i'll go to the bathroom and then i'll be able to put one in and then i think one fell out of my chair i gotta get that before someone like

You're doing all the things, but the preoccupation is really what your all day existence is. It is. It's exhausting. And there's no joy. And you're missing life. Yeah. I have a photo of me at like a El Torito or something. And I have a margarita and my husband took it and he's like, look how beautiful you look. And I look at that picture now and I'm like, I remember as he took that photo, I was counting calories. Wow. Yeah.

I do not remember the joy of that at all. And just faking the whole thing. Yes. So you don't get busted. Yes. Well, this is where I have so much compassion for folks with eating disorders because, and I've said this before, forgive me, but if you told me I had to have a line of cocaine at 8 a.m. then a line of cocaine at 1 p.m. and a line of cocaine at 8 p.m., no fucking way. Like the notion that you guys have to three times a day eat and that's the issue I think is heroic.

of the many addictions or disorders. I mean, that's the one where you have to dance with the devil. Yes. Abstinence isn't an option. No, you can't just stay away from food. And it is this dance on either side. So you have to eat, but you're not allowed to binge because that would be a disordered behavior. But you're also not allowed to restrict food.

But you also have to learn to trust your body's satiation, which you have no idea what that looks like. And so it's this constant dance of trying to figure that out. It takes time. Yeah, fuck, that seems so hard. It is. And it's funny because you can be recovered for a very, very long time, which I have been, and get a stomach flu and throw up a bunch. And then there's this little voice in your brain that goes, this is really good.

And then you have to be like, oh, bring in the tools. Let's go. You have to be so ready for that, especially at the beginning of recovery. Now I'm like, oh, hon, I got you. You don't have to worry. But at the beginning, there had to be some pretty systematic strategies

to intervene with when you had a stomach flu. Or how about I don't think I have disordered eating, but also I think pretty normal is we have these periods of total gorging, like holidays. Everyone's going to do it. We've not made one dessert. My mom starts cooking like December 10th for the snacks, you know, and it's like 8,000 options. Those must be really challenging. For sure. And I think going

think going back to what you were saying about how angry people can be, something that is so easy for some people is so hard for us because Aunt Jean is talking about how she's over eight, which makes you think you've over eight. And then Aunt Dorothy is saying, oh, I feel like a big fat pig. And now you're like, am I a big fat

Thanksgiving, everyone's like, oh, you've looked great or you've gained weight or you've lost weight. You're surrounded by this constant, you're doing it right or you're doing it wrong. And the messaging of the eating disorder is being fed to you all the time. Yes. Thinking now, coming back to your question, I think that's why people are mad. I remember if someone was like, oh, I feel so fat. That used to be so hard for me. Or they'd be like, oh, I've got this great diet. And I'd be like, you have no idea how hard it is for me to hear that. Yeah, yeah. Hmm.

That could so trigger me back into behaviors. It's a slow chipping away of behaviors. I haven't weighed myself in 15 years for that reason. You have to chip away. Like if someone told me I had to start weighing myself, my anxiety, I'd notice it right away.

I remember when I was pregnant, the scariest part of being pregnant was that I might have to get weighed. I would do a blind weigh-in every time. I'd be like, do not tell me I'm recovering from an eating disorder. And they'd go, I got you. Don't worry. I want to applaud Monica because I think Monica has enough self-awareness about herself and her own ruminations and powers of obsession that Monica, to my knowledge, has never had an eating issue, but doesn't weigh herself preemptively. Like I know I could.

I could become obsessed. I think it's smart for me just not to...

see it. I mean, I've had like some tiny slippery slopes that have been enough that are like, ah, I think that's something I just can't do. Well, that's an act of compassion, right? You know yourself, you know what's right for you and you're willing to hold that boundary for your long-term wellbeing. That's perfect. Okay. So anxiety, as much as we use the word, I think it might be useful to actually kind of talk about anxiety

And talk about anxiety versus anxiety disorder. What's just like a cursory, if we were taking anxiety 101, what could you tell us about anxiety? Well, anxiety isn't actually bad. Everybody needs it. If you're crossing the street and there is a bus coming your way, your brain detects danger and sends out a bunch of anxiety hormones so that you know that you need to get

off the road as soon as possible. That's a good thing. And we're constantly checking for danger too. So as I came in here, without my even knowledge, I'm sure my brain did a little zoom through the room like, is anyone weird in here? And is the roof going to fall on my head? And your brain is constantly checking. Maybe, by the way. We can't guarantee that it won't. That's okay. But we're constantly...

checking for danger as a way to stay alive. And if their danger presents, anxiety presents and encourages us to fight, flight, freeze or fawn. That's the four Fs. So that's not a problem. But as we've evolved over time, for some lucky ones of us who have genetically been set up for anxiety, our brains tend to go over and above looking for dangers now to look at like just in case fears.

So someone without anxiety comes in, looks good, sit down, I'm good. For someone with an anxiety disorder, your brain starts to go, but what if the roof does fall on our head? And what if Monica isn't a nice person? What if Dax doesn't like me? You're like now creating multiple steps. Yeah, in different areas. So different disorders have different fears. So if I had an eating disorder, maybe I'm like, well, did the cappuccino I have, is it going to make me gain weight?

Or as if I had social anxiety, I'd be like, do they think I'm lame? If I had obsessions like you had with OCD, it might be, will I lose control and kill both of you right now? It depends on where your brain goes. But the disordered piece is when that response happens.

impacts your functioning, starts to impact your ability to enjoy your day, that there's a degree of distress. Well, yeah, because what I really, really enjoyed learning from Allegra was the difference between OCD and OCPD. Yes. Such a clear distinction between if you're straightening up your house methodically, you ultimately agree that's the right decision. You do think that's a virtue that you're... It aligns with your value. It aligns with your value.

Well, it depends on the function. We always assess function. So when I finish seeing clients for the day, I tidy. Not because I'm doing it from a place of anxiety. It's very soothing for me to feel like I'm finishing off the day. I don't have to think about anything. I might just potter around and fuss with things. Whereas if I was doing it because I felt such anxiety that I couldn't move on to my evening or that if the house wasn't tidy, bad things might happen to my children. That's a whole different thing.

I read something else you wrote. If we do things perfectly, people will be less upset at us, experience less adversity. Yeah. Also, I was listening, you had a guest on your podcast talking about social anxiety. And again, there's like these pop culture understandings of this versus what it is, OCD versus OCPD. And then I would think, yeah, in general, we would regard social anxiety as being shyness. No. Not it at all. Please dispel that.

So there are all kinds of humans. None are right. Some are introverts, some are extroverts, some are shy, some are really outspoken. And any of those can have social anxiety. Social anxiety is the fear of being judged. In fact, some people believe that social anxiety is more of a shame disorder than an anxiety disorder.

The fear that you're not good enough or that you're bad. Shame can be a very painful component of the disorder. But typically, it's the fear of being judged by other people. Now, for some people with social anxiety, they could come and do this and have not an ounce of social anxiety, but put them in a party.

or at a networking event or to speak on stage and uh-uh, no way. Whereas some of my patients go on the red carpet and put on a show and speak in front of millions of people, sitting across from someone at a date is terrifying to them. So it depends on the person and it depends on the circumstances. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

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And again, it kind of starts overlapping a little bit with OCD, which is the guest you had on. She was saying like before she goes to a social event, she'll start compulsively checking that her face isn't red, armpit sweat, checking if she smells. Yes. That to me is like, well, that's the compulsion, right? There's some obsession. I'll be excluded or I'll be judged or I'm not good enough to be there. And then the compulsion is like, what is my checklist for?

Of things that might alienate me. Yeah. So there's something also to know about this. So that can be a symptom of social anxiety, the fear that you would smell and therefore would be judged socially because of it. There is actually another diagnosis called olfactory reference syndrome. Ooh.

where people's core fear are that they smell. That is the only part of their condition. And they spend a lot of time obsessing and compulsing over whether they smell. Do people notice? I'm asking a lot of reassurance seeking. So that could bleed into a different disorder as well.

I've been asked, as we all have, like, do I smell or do I smell or does my breath smell? And I'm not thinking that they might possibly have a disorder, that that's on their mind all the time. The thing to take note of is repetition with all these conditions. If you're having a particularly stinky day, you might ask, do I smell? But if you're noticing that person asking it repetitively, that's where we're looking more at a degree of disorder. Yeah.

Can I add in for fun? If someone steps out of the shower and they say, do I smell? It might be a red flag.

Your podcast, Your Anxiety Toolkit, is wonderful and you cover so many different topics on there. Do you have a favorite guest? Yeah, I have a couple. Tara Brach has been on my podcast. Oh, amazing. Oh, was that so wonderful for you in full circle? It was like a career highlight. I was traveling for a conference to Washington and I reached out to her and I said, I will literally take this.

10 minutes if you've got it and I will make a donation because she has an insight meditation center and she said yes wow that was such a wonderful like literally the person who helped me recover it was such a moment can I ask what your anxiety level was approaching that interview my anxiety was that I was going to go to the wrong location actually that was

my anxiety here today as well. What if I just show up and I'm standing outside someone's gate and I'm not even at the right place? But no, actually, it just felt so right. It was so good. But my other favorite episode was my husband. Oh,

Because he had his own anxiety disorder that he was working through. And he bravely came on and shared about how he was working through his own panic disorder on airplanes. Oh, wow. And it was just cool. Not to derail us totally, but I just know so many people who are so afraid of flying. Yes. Do you have a two-minute way to get people past that? No.

You have a 90-second cure for that. How fast can I talk? But you know what I mean. Are there any tools? Because it's debilitating for people. It depends on the fear. So if the fear is that the plane will crash, it might be around some psychoeducation of the safety of a plane.

and helping them to understand what planes do and how they function. I don't feel like that helps them. I know, I've always tried that. There's that group and then there are those who just simply have panic disorder and that's that they're afraid they'll have a panic attack on a plane. Oh. So that's different. Often people say they're afraid of planes but they're actually afraid of panicking. Yeah.

Interesting. I can way more relate to that category. Yeah. And he was that. He was more afraid that if I get on a plane, I can't get off the plane. And if I can't get off the plane, I'll panic. It's almost a claustrophobia adjacent. And it's so common. Panic is the fear of panic. Wow.

Wow. Yeah, that's so true. That's what it is. Oh my God. Panic is the fear of panic. And panic is terrifying. It's 10 out of 10. You feel like you're going to die. You feel like you've left your body. So I don't blame anybody for not wanting to have a panic attack. But believe it or not, as someone who's had lots of panic attacks, the best thing you can do is let it happen.

Do nothing about it at all. And that sounds very easy and it is simple, but it's hard at the same time is allow that panic to rise and fall. And with each time you panic, you'll build mastery over panic. And interestingly, as you build mastery, your panic gets smaller and smaller. So you think that letting it come will blow your head off, but it's actually the opposite. Would I be right to guess that it's the fighting it that is the fuel of it? 100%. What you resist persists.

And it's knowing it. Oh, this is what it is. It's a panic attack. I had them for a while. I just thought I was dying every time until many doctors were like, you're fine. You probably should go to therapy. And I was like, oh, okay. And then, yeah. But it is so scary.

It's so scary because you're like, what if I have one while I'm, I mean, at the beginning, I was starting to babysit for them. I was like, well, what if I'm holding the baby and I have one or in the car and I had had one in the car. So it does start perpetuating and get really crazy. But once you recognize like that's what it is that's happening. Panic attacks are not dangerous.

And when you can wrap your head around that, I always sort of make a joke, but I have literally had to ride panic attacks in this exact way, is you just starfish, like you lay down and you open your palms and you're just like, bring it on, let's go. Let's go, motherfucker. Let's party. Let's do this. And you wait it out. Again, a lot of this is mindfulness skills. So it's bringing your attention to the present, practicing non-judgment about

The panic attack. Like this is neither good nor bad. It just is. I'm not broken because of this. Did I go over time? 90 seconds? That's perfect. And people talk about that with addiction too, right? You've got to ride a wave of an urge. Yeah. So it's very similar. You're probably reticent to give these kind of hard, fast rules, but I think a lot of people are dancing on the spectrum of a lot of these things.

We had this great, uh, Catahakis. She was a sex therapist and she defined something in a way for me that was so crystal clear and so helpful. I was saying, what if people have sexual trauma and then they want to explore that sexual trauma in different ways as they're adults? Who are we to say that it's wrong for them? Like they were dealt this hand.

And she said, oh, it's very simple. Whatever your sexual proclivity or tendency is, if it doesn't result in shame or secrecy, then you're golden. I was like, oh, so clear cut. Thank you. That's helpful to people. So is there anything we can say about people who are on this spectrum of diet and exercise? Are there things, are there red flags that we should be aware of? Are there things that we should take account of and assess? Yeah. So,

My job as a clinician is actually to always assess medical first, not mental. And so if I have a client who is of healthy weight and isn't doing harm to themselves or others,

then my job is actually to just help them explore what's best for them. My job is not here to sit across from you and say you have a disorder and you must rid yourself of all disorders. You need to eat 2200 calories a day. Yes, that's not my personal experience of my job. However, if there is someone sitting across from me who is medically in trouble, they're malnourished, they haven't had a

period in a very long time to the degree in which their medical professionals are concerned. It could be just anything that's starting to impact their short-term and long-term wellness. I will raise a concern and say, I'm worried. What can I do? What are you willing to do? What would feel safe for you? Can I bring in other team members and have a discussion first? There are

are a small degree of people who, if they keep going, they're going to have a heart attack. I've had those clients. They're so malnourished. They're putting so much stress on their internal organs. A heart attack is around the corner. That's different. Where we may look at hospitalization and

and so forth. But I think there's so much beauty in first exploring people and their own values and understanding what is this pattern? What are these behaviors actually doing for you first before I rip them from you? I want to know how they're helping you. And then we can start to talk about alternatives and you get to decide. I like that approach. I want you to rid me of something.

But the interesting thing is, it's funny you say that, is as soon as I come at it from an angle of how does this help you? How does it not help you? You're more likely to say, I'm willing to trust you with my problem. Of course. Whereas if I'm across from you being like, you've got to stop doing this thing. Yikes. You've already got enough anxiety. You don't need any more. Control is a huge element of it. And now you're telling me that your solution is to control me and I already am feeling out of control.

then it's just going to accelerate this thing. Yeah. This is big for teens, right? You got a teen who has got an anxiety disorder or a mood disorder or an eating disorder. They don't want to give their parents the satisfaction of changing things. So it's saying, what are you willing to do? What would be better for you? Instead of the mom and dad coming in and being like, we want you to do this. It's

so much more effective. It builds a sense of self-mastery when they come up with their own solution. I guess I have stereotypes. Is this something that affects younger people more than older people or is it all pretty much across the board? There's as many people. Anxiety or

I guess you just had brought up a teenager with an eating disorder and that seems the one I'm probably thinking feels like they would be most vulnerable to that at that age. Very much. I actually didn't get my eating disorder until I was 17. Really ramped up when I moved to America. But it wasn't because of American culture. It's because I had...

nothing else to define me. I was alone here with a husband who was working a lot and I didn't have a visa to work. And what was I going to do? I felt so powerful when I was on a diet. I felt so in control and better than other people. It was such a drug. People would say, you're so disciplined. And I'd be like, I know. But inside I was completely miserable. This has nothing to do with any of these topics, although maybe it will dovetail into it. But

I'm impressed that your relationship weathered you moving and leaving everything for that person. Because if I were you and I was scared and I was lonely and I was unmoored,

and I didn't know my identity, I would be so hypervigilantly evaluating this person I had done all this for. I just feel like I would be scrutinizing them to a degree that would not be natural. Yeah, we've navigated that. It's impressive. My husband and I are very different, but he gives the world's best hugs. If there is a competition for the world's best hugs, it is him. He and I need to have a hug. Yeah, Dax is pretty good. Oh my

Maybe it is. The mitten. It has something to do with the mitten. Wow. You'll have to give me one after this and I will compare and contrast. And I'll give you a little like out of five. Okay.

You love the five scale. It makes me uncomfortable. I want everything on a 10. I think for him, there's a safety there with that. So even though it was so scary and something I would never wish on anybody, I was so young. I was married when I was 21. We had actually lived apart on opposite ends of the world longer than we had been together on the day we got married.

So we'd spent more time apart than together. Boy, you guys made this. Wow, that's incredible. This is low odds, everything you're saying. It is. So I don't really know. But, you know, I say to friends, marriage is not easy. It's mostly just the decision to stay married. That person has to be enough. You're a safe person. And it's mostly a decision, right? And we just keep making the decision. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm going to repeat this too many times at this point, but our first therapy session between my wife and I, which was months into dating, he wanted to meet with me first because he was her therapist. So we had like a session, but he was sober, which made me trust him. And he's like, so tell me this whole thing. And I said, well, basically we were dating. Then we went away and did a movie together and they did not want to hire us because we were dating. And I told one of the producers, who's one of my best friends, I said, listen, I'm going to promise you under no circumstance will we break up during this movie. I don't

give a shit what happens. I'm promising you I'm not going to do that. And now we're home and I'm like, now we're back in real life and I don't know. And he goes, that's an interesting phrase. You're in real life because actually that was real life. Yes. Committing no matter what that that

That was real life. And I was like, whoa. Mind blown. Wow, that is really it, huh? I can't believe how simple that was, but it kind of blew my mind. Yeah. Tell me the title of your book. I wrote The Self-Compassion Workbook for OCD. Okay, The Self-Compassion Workbook for OCD. If you don't have OCD, does that book still have tools for compassion? It does, but I'm in the process of writing a

the every person version. It's way more sassy. That's very much almost like a textbook. Publishers asked me to write it as a clinical workbook for people who don't have access to treatment. This is more sassy and daily life stuff. Right. Great. That's the problem is like be more compassionate to yourself. That's easily said, but I think.

One of the great parts of AA is simply there are actionable steps you take so that you're engaged. You know, it's not in your mind. Even if it's bullshit, we figured out ways to give you actions that help reinforce what's going on in your brain. Yeah, there are actions.

And it's also today, like you guys now know the areas and just that awareness sometimes is enough. Even if you don't move to self-kindness, you just catch yourself in the negative. That can be great too. This is so important. When you criticize yourself and judge yourself, it actually ramps up your nervous system. It ramps.

prompts your body. When you're mean, you're like, you idiot. If I sat across from you or you even said it to yourself and we put heart rate monitors on you and we did an evaluation of your brain, your whole body goes into anxiety and a lot of nervous system ramping up.

So think about if you're going to do something hard, do you need that extra horrible feeling? Right. Are you setting yourself up? Yeah. It's already hard enough. Don't make it worse by beating yourself up. Physiologically, our body does that.

add more suffering when we act that way. Well, Kimberly, this was delightful. And I'm so glad that you got to come in and talk to us. And I'll very much be looking forward to the self-compassion for lay people, non-OCD version. Me too, all the people. And everyone should check out your anxiety toolkit. Your husband...

And... Carbock. That's exciting. I'm definitely going to listen to that. Yeah, good starter episodes. Well, I hope we get to see you again. Maybe when you finish your book, you can come back. Thank you. That would be great. Thank you so much for having me. What a treat. I want to tell you, you did a great job, but I also feel like that might feed it. Yeah. Yeah. In Australia, we say tickets. If you're full of yourself, everyone goes, tickets. Like you're selling tickets for yourself. Oh, I like that. Sorry, don't give me tickets. Don't give me tickets. All right. Well, thank you so much, Kimberly.

Stay tuned for the fact check. It's where the party's at.

- Oh. - Stretch them out. - Okay. - Well, don't you think you-- - Well, my feelings are a little hurt, but we can continue. - Oh, okay. Do you think you would-- - You can try my shoes on, even if you ruin them. - Well, here's the thing. I don't think I'm really at risk of stretching yours out. - You're not, but you could have a toe fungus.

Never. I have a toenail fungus. I think I might too. I've opened up a two front wall on it though, finally. How are you handling this? I have this crazy theory. I mean, I only believe in this theory like 1%. Okay. This would be very clear about how much I think this is plausible. You know this about me. I have a toenail that's dead. Yeah. Big toenail on my left foot.

From a motorcycle accident years ago, 13 years ago, right? Yeah. And so this is grotesque. In fact, this whole podcast is becoming so grotesque because I talked about an oily evac the other day. We always talk about stuff like that. I know, but it's getting worse. But at any rate, I do have this disgusting toe. Everyone should know this dark side of me. And it doesn't grow. I discovered it because...

You may remember this detail. I used to take Kristen on her birthday to get manicure pedicures. Yes. And I would join. Yeah. And I would get a pedicure. Yeah. And I'd always do the same blue. I love this blue. It's a gumball blue. Audi made an A4 in it. It's gorgeous. Well, it's like July 17th. I'm like planning something.

tomorrow's trip. Yeah. And I just realized, I don't know how I missed this. All the blue was gone from the year before on all of my toenails, except for my left big toe. It was solid blue.

And I was like, oh, that toenail's not growing. Mind you, I noticed it looked weird, but I assumed it was still growing. It hadn't grown. This was probably an eight-year-ago realization. Yikes. And I use a Dremel tool and I grind it. I do all these things. Well, the last...

Oh, bad. The last time recently I got in it with the Dremel and I took it down really far, I noticed under the toenail, like in my nail bed, it's like black.

Weird. So then I, listen to how crazy this theory is. Okay. So then I was like, maybe I don't have psoriatic arthritis or an autoimmune thing. Maybe I've had this fucking, like a toe infection under my toenail for the last 13 years and it's what's been causing all my ailments. And

And once I launched that theory, I'm like, we must, I either need to remove. Okay. So I did something crazy that the kids watched the other day. Okay. This is nuts. So my dad, it was embarrassing. I took a safety pin.

And I heated it up in a candle and I put like 20 holes throughout the toenail. And then I doused it all in rubbing alcohol, hoping to kill the fungus in there. God. And my kids were watching this whole operation. Dax, can't you just go to the doctor? I can't. I can't seem to find the time. Yes, you can. I can't.

Something that's like destroying your immune system. Think about how well you would have done on the cognitive test if you didn't have this fungus. Yeah. It's probably best that I wasn't at my peak. If I've been bragging. I brag so much just with my half cognition. You did a good job. But can you like...

You really should go to the doctor. I can't go to the doctor. Why? I know. Don't be that person. I am against that person. Of course, you should be. I am. It's not because I don't want to see that. Let me put it this way. If the doctor came over, I'm not asking for that. That's not my expectation. I'm not that entitled. If the doctor came over between records, I'd let him probe my whole body. I'm not afraid in that.

masculine way it's when will I have time to drive to Beverly Hills between now and December because the calendar is not and it's been non-stop it's about five weeks it's non-stop and you can find the time like let's be let's be realistic like yeah someone was selling a 1986 911 turbo and

for $4,000 in Marina Del Rey, somehow I would figure out how to get over there in that time window. So I agree. Yeah, you can go and you should. I should, but I was like, go or just put a bunch of holes in it. Did it fix it? I have a toenail fungus spray. My star meter just went down to zero. Brad Pitt doesn't have a fungus spray. Yes, he does. He probably does. You think he has fungus? I don't think so. Okay, hold on. I'm going to look up. Does Brad Pitt have fungus? No.

Okay. So I then, I left my fungal spray in on the Nashville trip somewhere. I don't even know. How often do you spray it? I'm streaky. I remember four nights in a row and then I forget for two months. I'm bad at it. Interesting. So, but you, it's part of your, like, technically it's part of your routine. Well, once I started grinding it, I'm like, I think that's

I think that's a toenail fungus. And I got a spray about two years ago, but I've only used it. I don't even want to tell you all the details because it's too embarrassing. I want to hear it. Okay. So I've only used it probably. That's two years old and the bottle was very full. So I'm just having a- I'm not sure if you're supposed to use it for that long either. Yeah, you're supposed to spray it on top. It's just rubbing alcohol. It just kills fungus. Okay. So anyways, I forgot it and I was like, shit, I got to order more. When I went to Amazon to order more, I realized there's a lot of products.

I'm not alone in this battle. No, I just looked it up, and approximately 15% to 25% of people are likely to have a fungal infection. 15% to 25% of people? A fungal infection like athletes foot at any given time with superficial skin and nail fungal infections affecting up to 20% to 25% of the global population. Wow. So that means there's 2 billion people with toe fungus. So-

The chances of Brad Pitt having it is actually pretty high as in 25%. Yeah. Well, not really because, well, whatever. He's in a different. He's not even in the populace. Okay. Point being, I discovered all these different problems.

Is that, oh, that's the Yoon. They are cute. Aren't they cute? Yes. This is the aforementioned mug. Yeah. The coveted mug. She got some tea on her. Looks like shit. Okay. Did you get shit on that? I guess because it's coffee and tea, it's kind of, anyways, I don't want to make this even grosser. Once I got onto that page of ToneNet, well, then I discovered there are like humongous band-aids.

You can put over your toe and it has a patch with some chemical, I'm sure, that seeps in. And I have an advantage because I've drilled holes in the top of Swiss cheese on my knee. Ew! I just said cheese. That was really bad. Don't ever say cheese when you're talking about fungus. But isn't cheese fungus? Well, I don't want to. Is it milk fungus? No one wants to know about that. Okay. So I got these. I was just bragging about it last night. So I got these band-aid-y things. And that's a nighttime thing. Mm-hmm.

And then in the morning, I have this now milky liquid I put in all around the cuticle and slather it with a brush. So I've opened up a two front war. Okay. Morning and night on this toenail. What if I cure this, what if the fungal infection seeping into my bloodstream and that's

all of my autoimmune issues. It's not out of the realm. It's not out of the realm. I think it could be, which is why you have to go to the doctor. This, what you're doing is such a waste of time. Give me a couple weeks to see if I can clean up all the darkness in the nail and everything. Let's see if I can knock out this thing and have a really healthy pink toenail bed.

And if I can't accomplish that, look, I've been living with this for 12 years. We can go another couple of weeks. If it's in your bloodstream, like it's more than some rubbing alcohol that's going to fix it. You're going to have to get blood transfusion and new, new, full new blood. All right. I'll give myself a blood transfusion. I'll figure out how to get some. Okay. Well, now it's making more sense why you got so offended by my joke about my shoe. Cause you're dealing with something very real. You're

Right. And I wasn't even aware of that. That's how the subconscious works. Yeah. Oh my God. Because I have this deep insecurity about how gross my foot is. You said it was about stretching it out. But what I heard was your foot.

toes are too fungusy. I know you didn't even hear the part about stretching out. You just heard about your nasty foot. It's just another step into my father's shadow, which is so crazy because I used to come into my dad's bedroom. I know I've told you this. And he had the largest Swiss army knife with every one of the attachments. It was like six inches thick.

And I'd come in there and he'd have paper towel under his foot and he would have the little scissors from it going and the knife. And I'm like, what are you doing? He was always operating on his feet. And I was like, this man is a monster and he's disgusting. And I was sitting there poking holes in my toenail. And I was like,

I'm doing it. I'm repeating the pattern. Can't you be the one to break the pattern, break the chain? I think it's going to be on Lincoln and Delta to break it. No, you can do it. I can only do so good. You can. I promise you can do it. There's a few things. I have floating out in the ether like three stupid fucking errands that...

We're years into it. Every time I write a to-do list, a couple of items make it on there and then six others. And I knock out the six and I just keep rewriting. What are they? I can't tell one because one of them is illegal. What is it? I'll cut it. Well, I...

Are you going to murder? No. Okay, got it. You need to do that. I know I need to do it. And I need to fix this poisonous toe. Okay. I want you to fix the toe before you do that, though. For real. Yeah, that's likely. I think I'm going to have an update for you on a couple of fact checks that I've knocked out this whole issue. Think of the pride I'll have of having. This is why men are.

Uh-huh. People try to make it so kind and sweet, like, well, men are just afraid to be vulnerable, so they don't want to go to the doctor. That's not it. They're arrogant. They think they can fix things.

They can poke holes in their body and pour rubbing alcohol and fix their bloodstream. You're not being fair to men. I'm being so fair. I don't think your average man is sawing at his toes. My father did. I come by this honestly. Men are, their standing of their weak goes down. We can be compassionate to that. Say it again? Their social standing of their weak goes down. You know what makes someone's social standing go down? Fungus? Yes. Yes.

Uncontrolled fungus. Men can't even see that that's the truth. We're a pretty unhealthy population. When you're traveling around, I don't know why I'm taking it here, but I, because I have it, right? So I know if I eat my, like have a big gluten-y meal and then there's garlic in it, the next day my skin will show it. And I'm traveling around a lot and like a good chunk of us

Is fucking poisoning ourselves. I see it. Like I'll be talking to a guy, an older guy, and it's just his face is inflamed with so clearly so much stuff's going on. It's so visible in the face. Well, he probably didn't go to the doctor. He's like, what the fuck? I guess I'll just pour some rubbing alcohol on my face. This redness will go away. I poked so many holes. Don't worry. In a couple of weeks, it'll be fixed. This will be straightened out.

Well, I think it's twofold. A, these things are hard to track down. Like, what are you allergic to? We're eating one million things. So it's a very hard task to figure out what you're allergic to. If it were like you went there and they go, oh, yeah, you're positive for name your known pathogen. Here's a medicine that works on it.

Unfortunately, this stuff for allergies just doesn't work that way. Not always. But sometimes, like, you know, you can go do an allergy test and some things do pop up pretty quickly and you can know. Yep. Like you can do the skin prick test. I've done it. And Erin's done it. And, you know, that's a good start. I think it's more. That's a very rudimentary version. Yeah. I think that's right. It's hard. Because I have poured more time into that, the autoimmune thing, than anything else.

I've been to hundreds of doctor's appointments and labs and fucking punch a karma cleanse. And anyways. Okay. So that's what's going on with my toenail. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare.

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I saw Substance last night. I want to see it so bad. You brought it up last fact check. I brought it up on an episode. Oh. An upcoming episode. Oh, I thought it was on a fact check. Uh-uh. What the fuck? You beat me? Yeah. Tell me your thoughts. First of all, okay, so Substance, it's Demi Moore. Margaret Qualley. And I don't want to give a lot away, but I think the premise is fine, which is...

Demi Moore is playing this aging actress, public personality. It is incredible metaphor at the beginning with the star on the Walk of Fame. She comes to find out there's this thing she can take, the substance. And if you take it, you'll be able to be young for seven days. But then you got to go back to your old self for seven days. And there's really strict rules are very simple. It's laid out.

And it's the most relentless movie I think I've ever seen. It's intense. I'm really curious to see how you're going to be able to handle it. It is. It's relentless. I can see where a couple people walked out.

I think it's one of these things that if you don't walk out, you're going to love it. But it's very intense. Well, I told you that I heard someone had a heart attack and a seizure. So the seizure, I remember you telling me about the seizure, and I definitely know what the part is. There's a lot of, like, there's some graphics that flicker. But you don't have that. I know you have epilepsy. I can't believe you forgot.

But you haven't ever been triggered by a strobe light, right? I don't think so. But you don't want to roll the dice. We don't. I'm scared to roll the dice. And also the night before the first seizure. Yeah.

We did go to a play. Terrence Posner. Yeah, we did. We went to Terrence Posner and it was a great play. But there was like some light stuff and some big pop outs. Yeah. Big frights. Yeah, yeah. And then I had a seizure that night.

Yeah. I mean, I don't want to speak. I think it's fine. I'm more willing to deal with a fungus if you have that. I'm a little nervous to dip my toe in your epilepsy water. But regardless, you could also go with a friend. Yeah. It's obvious when that comes, they could tell you to shut your eyes and then tell you when that part's over. Yeah. Okay. I had a dinner last night where somebody else saw it. It's funny. I'm getting sort of mixed things because, well, not mixed reviews. Everyone's like, whoa, it's like. It's intense. Yeah, it's intense. Might be the most intense movie I've ever seen. Yes. And that's what,

A lot of people have said, but then this person said, she was like, you'll be fine. Well, you're going to love the messaging so much. Yeah. The messaging and what they're exploring is phenomenal. Who'd you go with? Kristen. She surprised me and had bought tickets. Oh, fun. So I think she had been hearing about it too. Uh-huh. And-

Yeah, you're going to love the metaphors. Did she get freaked out too? She loved it. But Kristen loves gore and slasher and gross. I have a burgeoning theory. To me, Moore is phenomenal in it. The bravery of both the actors is off the charts. Yeah. They're naked most of the movie. I heard that, yeah. Which is so relevant. Yeah. Because that's what it's all about. Our obsession with our bodies. I know. And fuck.

It's really good. It's fantastic. I wonder if the amount of like feeling disturbed is

is going to break down by gender. I don't think so. Because there's just very disturbing visuals. For men who have seen it, they have urea. It's like they are freaking out about how intense it was and how, and the person with the seizure and the heart attack was a man. And then I've talked to a few women who are like, whoa, it's crazy. You got to see it. But like,

But they don't have that. Well, I think what could be different, because the thing that is intense isn't the metaphor. Like, I know what you're saying and guessing at, which is very astute.

But it's just the visuals of, it's way gorier than any slasher picture I've ever seen in my life. So there's just a visceral visual gnarliness to it. Now, what I do agree with is that for women, they will feel so seen that they'll be having this complimentary feeling of the pleasure of being seen so well. Mm.

To offset probably the uncomfortableness. So in that way, maybe. But I think women are going to be just as shook by some of the visuals. Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. A lot of women have put substances in their body. Oh, uh-huh. In attempt to stop aging, look younger. And myself included. Yeah. Chin filler, Botox. But really, right? So yes, but I will say...

What is really great about the movie is it all these things are very related. Sure. It's about beauty and aging for a woman. It's also very much a metaphor for addiction. As you'll see, I don't want to give away kind of what the interesting twist of it all is. Yeah. But there's a very, very, very strong parallel with addiction and kind of robbing from your future.

To experience something now is really interesting. Yeah. Anyways, incredible. Well, it's kind of a ding, ding, ding. Already feels like a stretch, the way you're saying it. This is for Kimberly. So it was about self-compassion. Actually, very much a ding, ding, ding. We talked a lot about eating disorders. Oh, uh-huh. And phobias and things like that. So it is a ding, ding, ding. Yeah. Yeah.

We took a test. We took a test. We love taking a test. Love taking it. Absolutely love it. And you know, I don't even really want to think about it because I don't want to know how the sausage is made and then ruin it. But clearly you and I have some thing. Like some work to do? No, no, no, no.

We have some symbiosis. Oh. Right? Yeah. And I always kind of wonder, well, what is, like, if you had to distill it down to what is the core thing that enables this?

Yeah, yeah, this like kind of explosive point of view situation. Yeah. And it's not gender, it's not race, it's not a lot of stuff. It's not size. And so just it's curious if maybe like, well, this is the thing we seem to have overlapped on the very most. Well, that's funny that you say that because I think it is all those things. I think it is gender, race, size, gender.

innate personality. Like, I think it's, it is all those things that add up to, for some reason, these puzzle pieces like go together well as foils. Sure. Yeah, that's true. But I think there's something bigger than that. Cause I meet a lot of tiny Indian women. No, you don't. I do. You do? Yes. Who? Oh God, that girl. What one? Yeah.

That girl. Oh, my friend from Instagram? Yes. No, no, no, no, no. Believe it or not, there's a lot of Indians moving through the world and I meet them. We work, we work. You meet them, but you don't know them. Let's be, can't you be? None of my points are working today.

But really, like, that'd be like me saying. That our oppositeness, I don't think is the explanation, personally. Okay. Okay. Because I mean a lot of opposites. Okay. That's fair. Yeah. I think that, like, here's the things I think about us. Like, our justiceness is part of the engine. Yeah. Right? That we share this character defect or proclivity for being justice. Or strength. Arbiters. Yeah. But I don't know. I think this beating ourselves up might be part of it. I could.

I could see that. Scratch all my points today. I'm keeping them all in. I guess when you start with operating on your own toe fungus, everything else probably is going to fall apart. You lose some validity. Yeah. Do you think we're compassionate? To one another? Yeah. On the same level we are to other people? I don't think so. I'll admit that. Really? Yeah. And I think it's weirdly a compliment to you.

This is a big revelation. I'm glad you're saying it. I'm thinking it. I'm just evaluating it in this very moment, which is I'm very hard on myself because I know better. I've demonstrated willpower. I should be able to tackle any of these things I hate about myself. And I think because I have a very high opinion of you, I'm probably harsher on you than I am someone who I think is half as smart as you.

Half is whatever. So I think it's possible there's some spectrum of how

I am towards people. And I'm like, I'm myself here. I have zero compassion for myself. And then let's just take my most disenfranchised person. Yeah. And I'm like, they're doing the best they can. Sure. Give them a fucking break. Yeah. And then you're probably like a third of the way to the left of that person. Interesting. Well, first of all, I'll say this. I think I have...

Less compassion. I'm not sure it's like bad, but I think it's true. The closer you are to me, the less compassion I have. Yeah, which in a way is natural. I think there's two things happening. One is I think you're capable of anything. So my expectations of you are high. Two is yes, family matters.

You don't feel bad. I don't feel bad for my brother. I know. Well, I do occasionally. But it's definitely a sliding scale. Yes. And it comes in and out. It's not a constant. And I have to almost, I have to look for it. I have to search for it. Yes. I have to do that with Kristen. I have to remind myself she's a human being. Yeah. Trying her best to get through this life. Yes. Yeah. So I think it's, for me, it's more that you're,

We're close, so by sort of default... I'm your brother. I don't give you as much compassion. It's just like, I don't give you as much leeway. I do have compassion for you. Right. Privately by yourself.

This is why. No, I do. I think I am pretty good, I think, and I think you're good at building the other person up. Yeah. Like, if you're down, I think I'm pretty good at being like, that's silly. Come on, tiger. You can do it, little buddy.

Let's go, champ. Come on, champ. You're being too hard on yourself. Okay. Here, I think I have something. Okay. I think you could break it down into finer categories. And so I think if you're hurting and suffering, I do have a lot of compassion for you. Yeah. If you're annoyed and angry. Yes. And it's about something I think you could fix. I have no compassion for you. Huh?

God. That, no. That, no. But I think that's actually. Yeah. I think within this broad umbrella of compassion, I think there's categories. Oh, yeah. Because when you're suffering, I feel really bad for you. Yeah. Me too. Yeah. But when you're just like eye rolling your eyes off your head. Yeah.

For a day. That's also because you make, you think that's related to you. Yeah. One of my problems, well-established, that I can own is I'm uncomfortable with people I love being angry. I know. It's just like, you get angry. And then I get angry. I'm like, oh, we're playing angry? Okay, well, I can play angry too.

Yeah. Fight anger with anger. But you need to fight anger with love and compassion. Yeah. But I don't always do that. I fight anger with anger. I'm a work in progress, Monica. I'm not. I know. I'm not there. We all are. We all are. Do you think any of that's true in reverse? Like if I'm sad and broken, you're very yes. Yeah. That's horrible for me. You've seen me sad. It's horrible. It's weird. It's like the closer you are.

to me as a person, the less leeway I give, I'm hardest on those people, but I definitely care the most. Sure, sure. So in that way, if they're hurting, I care way more about my family or you or Jess or anyone who's like hurting over that stranger who I give a ton of leeway to. Right.

It's all trade-offs. Yeah, it is all trade-offs. But the leeway thing is just because, yeah, you're right. It's like, I know you don't have to do this. Like, I know you know better. Yeah, I've evaluated you as very powerful. Yeah. And so I think you have the power, you know. Yeah. It's a compliment you'd rather live without, basically. Yeah.

You give me a lot of compliments. That I know. That are bad words. I know I have to explain them to you, which is not the sign of a great compliment. It's not. It's really not. But I'm glad you said that because I think I've thought that before. Uh-huh. And I think maybe I've said like, you don't give me the benefit of the doubt that you give other people and I don't like that. Yeah. And so. Yeah. Confirmation. Yeah.

Yeah. Which is, I mean, I get it. I get it. And I think- But by the way- It's both, goes both ways. I want you to know that I just put all that together. It's not like I've been sitting on that and then when you bring it up, I gaslight you into- No, I know. I really just now decided to evaluate it. I know, but isn't that funny though? Because-

Because when we bring things up, it's so quickly like, no, that's great. No. I just got to defend myself. Yeah. You just get in defense mode and then it takes like six years and then it's like, oh, actually. Yeah. We have to be getting along really well for me to open up that vault and take a little peek in there. What's going on? God, that's why. Do you think in marriage, like,

It's easier... Sometimes I think this if we're in a fight or if something's going on between us. Sometimes I'm like, it's kind of shitty because...

We, me and you can let things drag out for a while. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, used to. Used to, used to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But when you're married, sometimes I'm like, I think this type of thing comes up in marriages all the time. But then they have dinner and then they have the bedtime. You're forced. By the end of the night, you're forced to sort of figure it out. And I don't think, well, unless you don't. And I think that would be really rough. A lot of people don't. Yeah. Yeah.

A lot of people give their partner the silent treatment for like three days at a time. Yeah, that's tough. That's rough. And like living in that environment. But I guess that's like that's a benefit of marriage is I think it can expedite a resolution. Because you're forced to work. Yeah, which I think is good. It's like if you're on a sailboat together.

In the middle of the ocean. Like, you're going to figure, you got to figure it out. Or you get thrown overboard. I even see this with the kids. There's times where they have all the time in the world to fight. And then there's other times where it's like, no, everyone's got to get their shit together. We can feel that.

But I have been guilty, that very male pattern of shutting down. Like when the conflict is overwhelming emotionally for me, I have just completely, I just disassociate for a while. Yeah. This is on topic for Kimberly. Yeah, it is. Yeah. There's only one fact and it's not really a fact. She mentioned olfactory reference syndrome.

which is a core fear that you smell. Oh, right. Which I thought was very interesting. I don't have a percentage way less than toe fungus probably. Right, definitely. But then I wanted to look up listophobia, like interesting phobias. Really quick though, does this account for, some people smell. Well, I don't think they have, well, they might have it. They might be right to have this. That crossover is gonna be sad. The people who are obsessed with it and it's true. Yes. But I don't think

But I think the people who are obsessed with it is probably not true because they're probably going to such extreme lengths to make sure it's not true, but then they're just obsessed with it. Ooh, I wonder if people who score higher on the cognitive smell test are higher likelihood to have this disease. Right. I mean disorder. Super smeller tasters. Yeah. I really hope they come back and tell me I'm a super smeller.

Yeah, I had a friend. He's deceased now, so I can tell this story. We would go to the movies sometimes together. And just sitting next to each other, I could smell his breath. And it wasn't. Yeah, some people. I know. It's not like bad breath smell. It's like something genetic. There's a sharpness. I know. That just exists. I don't think they can go brush their teeth and get rid of it. I think it's halitosis. Simple chronic halitosis. Yes. Ex-violet-ocious. Yes.

Yeah. I know. I think it's halitosis. Although- I feel so bad. I know. Okay. Or people that are dealing with really intense vaginal smells or they have really stinky balls, this happens. I feel so much compassion because- It's stinky balls though. Okay. You feel like you should be able to knock that out? Yes. It's not internal. So you should be able to get that under- True. But like my balls, once in a while, in fact, it just happened when I was with Aaron down in Texas. Okay.

Because we were in and out of the bus and blah, blah, blah. And when I was going pee, I was like, Erin, I think I can smell my balls, which is so disgusting. But that's because you hadn't showered. But even when I don't shower, that doesn't generally happen. I don't know what was going on. Stress? Yeah, sure. Too much emotional. I don't know. Probably stress. But that's something that happens to me twice a year. Right. I'm like, oh, my God, I can smell my balls while I'm going pee this year. Okay.

I'm out. Toe fungus, stinky balls. Is there anything else I can say? No, listen. I think that that is not the same, though. It's not. As like if you're having like a vulva vagina issue. A flora issue. Yes. Then that is not like you can just take a shower and then that's over. No. No. And also, do people know? I've known people who like they eat clean, quote, clean food.

Which this is on topic as well. Sure. But like, they're doing everything right. I have heard like lemon. And they can't take lemon. Like lemon's good. You put it in your vagina or you just eat a lot of lemon? No, no, no. Don't do that. No one do that. You eat it. And because it, I mean, stuff you eat, like. Well, and you're supposed to put lemon in a garbage disposal that smells. Yeah. I'm sorry. That is the prescription for a stinky garbage. Don't make that the same thing.

Well, if there's a commercial for vaginal flora and it says, your garbage is... No, it's really scary. And also the vagina smells so... Or the vul... The vagina... Yeah, I don't think it's the vulva. It's the vagina. Let's be clear here. Sometimes I can't believe I still get confused.

It changes smells throughout the month. Surely. Flies are here. They're not here. Flies are here. Not here. Ovulation. I mean, there's just so much hormonal stuff going on that the vagina. And you get irony because blood's coming out. That's very specific irony smell. Gosh. After everything I've said with my balls stinking and my toe disgusting toe fungus. You know what's upsetting is like.

People will still like me? Yes, and they won't like me because people will be like, ew, women are, periods, ew. But like they'll take, ew, and then they'll take your toe fungus and be like, that's hot. He's even hotter now because of his toes. He's disgusting. No, but sometimes I can smell, not just like if I'm peeing, I can smell,

If my period is coming. Is on the, yeah, is on the prowl. I think that's standard. Someone has to say it out loud so all women can go, me too. I guess it's me. Yeah. I guess it's gotta be me who says it out loud. Okay, so phobias. I wanted to talk about some ones people probably haven't heard of. There's haphophobia. That's a morbid fear of being touched, right?

Half a phobia? H-A-P-H-E. Oh. Phobia. Or maybe it's half a phobia. Sounds weird, though, to say I have half a phobia. Dorophobia. The dread of touching the skin or fur of an animal. Hmm.

I don't have that, but maybe I should claim to have that. And then that's why I'm not a huge fan of dogs. That's great. That's a good plan. I only have half a door phobia. I don't like to touch fish. I thought you were making a joke because half a phobia.

Oh, my God. I didn't even realize that. So I guess I have two phobias. I have half of a phobia of Dorophobia. But yeah, reptile, scales, fish. I know. Gross. Chicken's feet. Their talons, whatever we call them. Yeah, I don't like that. Their hooves. Yeah. Ugh.

The tail of a possum. I'd rather die than touch the tail of a possum. What's the tail like? It's skin. Yeah, that's disgusting. You know possums have that pink skin tail? That's disgusting. Yeah, I don't like that at all. Eremophobia. That's a morbid dread of being alone. That's sad. That's our friend. Won't. I'm so won't we? Yeah. I have, what's it called? Eremophobia. I have a wemophobia. I'm so won't we all the time.

Even when I'm at a sporting event. Oh, God. Surrounded by people. Okay. Ergophobia. That's a fear. Do you know this? Oh. No, ADHD. I don't really have it, but I want to play something. It just reminded me of that. I had saved something to play. Okay. It's an update on Steven Seagal.

Oh, I did a voice. And then I, yeah. Did he send it to you? Yes, he did. He did. Yes. Okay. We'll come back to that. Ergophobia, a fear of a fear of, or aversion to work. Don't have that. I don't have that either. Do you want to play it now? Do you want to break up our list? No, no. We keep going. Okay. Hypnophobia, a morbid fear of sleep.

That's interesting. Morbid fear of sleep. I might have a touch of that. Brontophobia. Oh, and abnormal fear of thunder. Oh. I think a lot of dogs have it. Yes. I love thunder. Oh, the same word serves as the root of words such as brontosaurus, which literally means thunder lizard. Oh, that makes sense. Yeah. Woke last night to the sound of thunder. How far off I sat and wondered.

Started humming a song from 1962. This is a ding, ding, ding. Okay. This is kakorafiophobia. Holy smokes. A fear of saying crazy words? Kakorafiophobia. Okay. It's an abnormal fear of failure. Yeah. These are sad. It's a sad list. Oh, I have this. A hundred percent. Afidiophobia.

An abnormal fear of snakes. Oh, okay. I didn't know that was... What's an abnormal fear of snakes? I think it's irrational.

They made it the bad animal in the Bible for a reason. I think we all innately are a little freaked out by these things that slither around. But when I was on my hike, well, first about the bears, but then I was like, I'll definitely probably see a snake. Yeah. And I got very anxious. And I was like, I got to be done with this hike now. Yeah. I really, really hate snakes. And my friend Kirsten has this more than me. She doesn't even like...

Like if there's a picture of a snake or a cord, well, I guess if you try to make it like a snake and a dancey snake or a stuffy of a snake, like she can't handle it. She hates that. Yeah. Yeah.

I have a friend that had that with frogs. And then went to therapy over it and now can deal with frogs. That is abnormal. He worked at a pet store and everything was great. He's like star employee. And then the guy, the owner bought a bunch of frogs and he couldn't do it. He told the guy, like, I have to quit. Stop. Cannot be around frogs. Did he know before that or it was like, what?

Yeah. He was so valuable and he really ran the whole pet store that the guy did stop selling frogs. But like he was moving through the world on high, high alert for frogs. And it became even like, so what's great is he went to therapy over it. I'm going to add he wasn't born in this country. Right. So kind of what I really liked about it is it broke my stereotype of like, oh, Latino men don't want to go to therapy. Yeah. He now has a frog key chain. Woo.

Which he could have never had. He said like, this would have driven me crazy. But that was part of his like submersion therapy. So now he has a little frog key chain and now he's fine with frogs.

He had to go through a whole process. That is so sweet. I love that he has a proud teaching. I was so, like, touched that he shared that story with me. Yeah. Also, that's a literal ding, ding, ding. That's exactly what Kimberly does. Yes. Is, like, get people over their fears. Wow. Yeah. Aw. Yeah, it's very sweet. You want to hear Steven Seagal now? Sure. Or do you have a couple more? There's a few more. Yeah, go ahead. Give me. Taphophobia. Taphophobia.

An irrational or disproportionate fear of being buried alive. Again, irrational? Well, I get that. Yeah, yeah. Because I don't think about that often. It doesn't cross my mind. I don't think that's ever going to happen to me. Oh, but you know what happened to that little girl or boy, I forget. Little person. Yeah, a little person got buried alive at a beach.

And like, it was like caving in on her. One of these, like when kids bury each other. Yeah. They were like playing in and they went so deep. And then it like, and that kid died. God damn. And they're like standing around, like trying to get her out. And they keep, I know. Stop telling the story. What did you say? Please.

You're not my friend today. Yes, I am. Okay. And we're best friends. I know. Phobophobia is an excessive fear of acquiring a phobia. That sounds like something I would have. Yeah, you might have that. Yeah, like even hearing about phobias will give you the phobias. Yeah, exactly. Oh, my God. There's one...

You're so mad. You want to play this stupid video so bad. I have anxiety about how many phobias there are. I think if I know how many are on the list. So you have a fear of lists. Yes, or Taylor Swift's entire commencement speech. I have certain fears of things being very long, I guess.

Oh my God, except not- Do you have any real fears? I do have a single phobia, maybe more than one, but there's one I know. I am a bit, I'm a bit claustrophobic. Yeah, you are. I'm not. You're not at all. I don't think. You like being confined. No. Trapped. No, I wouldn't say I like it, but I don't have an excessive fear of it. If I start to get the hunch, like, oh, we're going to be locked in, I get really panicky. Have you ever watched spelunking?

Ew, I'm never watching that. You know what it is? Yeah, isn't that like water-based? No, they're exploring...

caves and they're going in these tunnels that are getting tighter and tighter. And I'm like, how can you possibly enjoy that? Right. It fucking freaks me out to no end. Or that famous, there was a book and a doc and all kinds of stuff. It was two climbers. One fell in a crevasse. Oh, 127 hours. No, that was the one with Franco. Franco, yeah.

This guy was like fell into a crevice and was like looking up and there's no way out. And he's just there and there and there and there. And at some point he decides to go deeper into the crevice. And he found a fucking tunnel that led him out of the ice pack. And he ended up living. But the notion of having to decide to go even deeper into the crevice, I'm like, that is, oh, we got to, we got to, we got to write the ship here.

I'm panicked. A lot of people are panicked. Let's hear a couple more. Hold on. Okay. This one's not scary. It's- Fear of being hugged. Unless you have this. Abophobia. It's a fear of palindromes. Weird. Yeah. There's like interesting things out there. There are. Okay. I guess I'll stop. Hold on. Okay. Florophobia. Philophobia. Fear of love. That's a sad one. That's like our- I don't understand that one.

Well, you don't have it. Okay. We ready for Steven Seagal? Oh my God. Sure. Okay. I was, um,

In Kazakhstan, I think, I was somewhere crazy in the world the other day, maybe six months ago, something like that. And there was a big Kyokushinkai, how do you say in English? Gathering or convention? Well, yeah, convention or something like that. They were doing all this, you know, demonstrations and fighting and competition. And all the old senpai, all the old Kyokushinkai masters were there. And they saw me come in. This was like chilling.

oh, you know, he's here, he's here. And they made me come and sit with the other masters and they introduced me as their senpai. Wow. What a tremendous honor. Tremendous honor. In our 70s, who could kill?

Most of the guys who think they're great warriors that are in their 20s or 30s kill them instantly. But that's stuff that most people who will hear this will go, oh, come on, that's a joke. Yeah.

Help me out. Well, amongst real martial arts masters, it's not a joke. Exactly. I mean, I take, for example, one of my favorite martial arts masters ever, Sosei Masayama, who invented Kyokushin karate. There's a man who passed away. I'm going to pause it there and just say the notion that he says, how do you say in English? What are you fucking talking? You're acting like English isn't your first language. I know. That's the part. That guy goes on to tell the story of a great master. Yeah. And of course, Stephen goes.

He was a very close personal friend of mine. I know. It's endless. How do you say in English? And he was like, he stopped himself just short of doing like a really bad Asian accent. He's like, yeah, well, don't do it. Okay. Oh my God. Jesus Christ. Okay. Love you. Love you.

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What's up, guys? It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season. And let me tell you, it's too good. And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay? Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation. And I don't mean just friends. I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox. The list goes on. And now I have my own YouTube channel.

So follow, watch, and listen to Baby, This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch full episodes on YouTube and you can listen to Baby, This is Kiki Palmer early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery. And where are my headphones? Because it's time to get into it. Holla at your girl!