Halle Berry
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Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman. Hi. Hi. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Good morning if you're listening in the AM. Okay, today's guest is an Academy Award winner.

winning actor it's hallie berry academy award-winning actor monsters ball the union x-men many x-men cat woman kidnap and she has a new movie out right now in theaters never let go a scary scary psychological escapade please enjoy hallie berry

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I did ruin my drug. You're DC. I'm stocked so full if you run out. That's my wife. Kristen's my mistress. Oh. My first wife is dying. This is my husband then. It would appear we've married the same person. You know my soon-to-be husband. He told me all about his time coming here.

- He was one of the earliest guests. - How did he describe it? He was a surprise. Did he tell you that part? I am obsessed with him. - Oh yeah, he did tell me that. You were a fan. He's like, who wouldn't know? - With Rob's help. - They surprised me. That was like a big pop-out surprise. Ding, ding, ding, your horror movie, "Pop-outs." - Oh, we got there.

No, he was one of our earliest guests and it was such a big get and it was so exciting. He was lovely. Well, it came out because I was like, I love Dax Shepard. I said, but man, it's like two hours. Like, what are you talking about? How does that work? And I've listened to you before. I'm like, but I never realized it's two hours. It's too long, right? It doesn't feel like that when I hear other people, but when I knew it had to be me, I was like, fuck, man. That's a long time. It's too long. I mean,

And guess what? Let me add, it's supposed to be an hour. In truth, in its original concept, it would be an hour. You can pour it all over the soda. Oh, that's my little stand. That's your nightstand. Thank you. You can or cannot wear headphones. It's totally up to you. Whatever you want. They're there. I will. No, I want you to do what you want. I want to do what you're doing. I'm going to put these shits on. Let's just see. Oh, that's so much better. Right? It's kind of like ASMR. Also, nothing else exists except for us.

We're in a triangle. Okay, yes, I can't do it in under an hour. That is the goal, but I'm chatty. You are. You're very funny. I already had an hour's worth of things I was curious about, but then you'll say something. I'm like, well, fuck, now I really need a follow-up on that. Right, so you follow the lead. I go where it takes us. But can we talk about Van for one second?

How long have you guys been together? Four years. This is the longest relationship I've ever been in in my whole life. I had noticed that in my research. I can't get past three years. Yes, this is a huge milestone. We celebrated when we hit four years like we had been married 20 years. That's how big it was for me personally. That is good. We've had long relationships, not me. If I were dating you and I was in love, I'd be like, oh yeah, yeah, we're coming up on three years. I know how this goes. I would be scared. We both were scared. Yeah.

He was waiting for the shoe to drop and I was waiting to drop the fucking shoe. Yeah. Because I just can't get past that. It's been such a relief. Okay, yes, I can do this relationship thing and he is my person and you just know it. He's a sweetie pie. And calm and he's what I've been dreaming of, searching for, needing. I had a thing with sobriety, which is I could get three months like a motherfucker.

Don't count me out. You want three months? I can get you three months. I could not get past three months. It was like, as soon as I get three months, I'm like, yeah, problem solved. Let's dabble. And for me, it was like, I happened to sign on a movie that went, thank God, a little over three months. And I couldn't use while I was working or I wouldn't show up. And that got me over three months. And I was like, oh my God, it can happen. I started to think it couldn't happen. You get stuck on your own story. Yes. It happens.

Was the departure always the same pattern or each time it felt novel at the end of three years?

It felt novel, but a new novel. Right, right, right, right, right. There was something about it that felt wildly familiar. But I realized that I had just gotten into things for all the wrong reasons. And it always became clear to me what those wrong reasons were at about three years. And then I knew I cannot stay here. I will die if I stay here. Yes. But because I got into this thing with Van in a different way...

That feeling never came because I didn't get into it for the wrong reasons. I didn't even try to get into it. Unlike all the other ones I tried to get into, like I made it happen. A bit manipulative, if I'm honest. I wanted what I wanted. It didn't mean that it was right for me, but I wanted it. But with him, I was done. I thought I could not do this. I didn't want it. I was going to live alone, be single forever, just raise my kids, do my job. And then he came when I wasn't trying to manipulate it. I wasn't trying to make it happen. He just like showed up.

Yeah. It's just that life lesson over and over again. It's interesting. This borders on it could feel insulting, but bear with me. My previous ones, I can name all the three that I was with. I look across the room. I'm like, holy fuck, look at her. Like shot out of a cannon, right? And then that has this kind of predictable. It starts so intensely. And then the chemicals wear off. And then you're dealing with real life. Whereas with Kristen, there wasn't a cannon moment.

And I was like, huh, this is interesting. I'm not sure this is for me, but boy, this personality is infectious. She sure is funny. And then...

It was a reversal of all the pattern. It was like, it was not fireworks at the top and then it's only gotten better. That's what happened to me. And I can't say if I were left to my own devices looking for him, I would have chosen him. Right. Right, right, right, right. He was chosen for me. How did he come into your sphere? COVID had just started, beginning of 2020. Great time. Really great time to be alive. We're all in a good mood. Exactly. I was very alone with my kids, hunkered down in my house and his younger brother-

for someone that was working with my company, my Respin brand that I was trying to figure out how to build out. And he said this a year before COVID when we were working together. He said, my brother would be a really good person for you. And I said, oh, really? Yeah.

I said, well, first of all, I don't believe in setting people up. So he was like, okay, so he forgot about it. So then his partner that was working with me came to me and said, you know, you should meet Brandon's brother, Van. I've known him 20 years. He knew the family because Van's brother went to college with this woman who was now my partner. So she said, I think you and he would be perfect and I want to set you up. And I said, well...

I don't really do the setup thing. I see what I want and I get what I want my way right away. But she cracked my face. She said, uh-huh. And how's that been working for you? Uh-oh. I said, bitch. Don't talk the truth in here. I said, I'm still not calling him. I said, you might be right, but no, I'm not calling a man at this point in my life.

Then Van's brother went to him and told him the same thing. You know, you should call Hallie. And he was like, I'm not calling Hallie Berry. What are you, high? So his brother kept telling him to call. So finally, one day, once we got into COVID, he was hunkered down in Atlanta with his mom and his son. He decided, well, I got nothing else to do. Let me try to call her up. So he texted me. He didn't call. He texted. That's a great start. He was like, hey, my name is Van. So we started talking.

That way, just talking through text messages with nothing to lose, nothing to gain. Who cared? We're in COVID. We're bored. So why not? I realized after a couple of text messages that he was smart. He was funny. He was interesting. And I thought, well, why not?

Were you a fan of Seconds of Pleasure or Dust or any of that? Yes, I had heard his music. It's the best. Yes. Sexy, by the way. Sexy. And he's a wonderful lyricist and his songs have meaning. That's what I love about him being from his era because it's actually about something. But it never occurred to me that I would date him.

So his shyness played in our favor because he got to write. We got to go at his pace. I let him lead the whole thing. I really legit kind of didn't care because I was not looking. I wasn't interested. I thought I was a failure at it and I just wasn't trying to do it again. You quit. You're retired from that. Yeah. I just really didn't covet it anymore. And he was so gentle in his approach and he made me feel seen and comfortable and there's no pressure. And I just realized little by little, I like

you, I looked forward to getting that ping every day that he had sent me a message. Sometimes they'd be long. I was going to say, do you remember a specific text where you were like, hmm, okay, this is interesting, where it kind of transitions to like, I'm a little more curious right now. I think it was the text where he said, show me what you're looking at right now.

Oh, that's good. And he knew I wasn't looking at myself. It wasn't like he wanted to see me. Although you could have been. You are an actor. Who knows? I could have been. But that said to me, he wants to know where I am. Know about your world. About my world, right? And then I remember when I told him, finally after we texted for like two months straight, I was like over texting and I was like, I want to talk to you. You still had not spoken on the phone? No, like two months we just texted. Wow. And so...

sending long letters and short letters. - It's a scary romance. - I like it. - We really got to know each other. And then one day, my text back to him was, "I wanna hear your voice." Within 20 seconds, ring! - Yeah, yeah. - Were you scared? - I was a little bit. We had fun texting, but will we be able to carry a conversation? Will there be these annoying long pauses, like will you get stuck?

But still, I had no fucks to give because I didn't care anymore. But I would have also been grateful to have the sense of giddiness at our age. I would have been like, oh, thank God. This is nice. I'm a little nervous to talk to this person. That's fun. Yes. After the first five minutes, it became very fun. And we realized we were just these little kids. I'm from Cleveland, Ohio. And so we were just these Buckeyes. You're not a Buckeye. I'm from Detroit. But same shit, Cleveland, Detroit. Yeah, same shit, basically. Monica's going to hate this. Did you go to Cedar Point? I did.

Oh, gosh. And Geauga Lake. Did you go to Geauga Lake? I think I went once to Geauga Lake. That's going to make Monica happy because we're entering a new one. A new phase. Anyone in the tri-state area, when they're on all we talk about Cedar Point, it's way too much. It comes up 45%. I have one question. I promise I'll limit to one question about Cedar Point. You can do whatever you want. Did you ever go there with a boyfriend in a matching outfit? I think I did. There we go. Well, not the whole outfit. Matching shorts. Okay. Yeah. Matching shorts. That'll do. That'll do.

Yes, that's one of his dreams to live out. I feel bad I didn't get to do the matching outfit thing. But that's what you did in Ohio. We did that a lot in Cleveland. You always matched with your person. You got to send a big old signal to the world. Yeah, that I'm theirs and they're mine. Don't look over here. I mean, look over here and be jealous, but don't look too long at either of us, okay? Do you think those previous things, my conclusion is that shot out of a cannon feeling is

is actually just familiarity. It's something that you recognize immediately from your childhood, which in general should be a reason to not pursue it. It feels immediately like love because that's the love you're familiar with. Yes. And you know what I've also learned is that

canon, that familiar thing you can grow with, but it would take that other person being able to heal that wound and grow with you and sit down and open that whole thing up and look inside of that and figure out how you work this out together. We're just not always aware that that's what needs to happen.

Yeah, and it's not one way. It's not like you're seeing something familiar and they're not. They are too. You're both hoping to heal some weird wound. And yeah, the ones that work can figure out how to do that for each other. Yes. Yeah, I don't think they're doomed. I realized at some point like, oh yeah, I just was feeling very familiar. That's what it was. It just wears off so quick.

Well, I was always and continue to be with some version of my mom. All of them have to be real go-getters. They have to be industrious bosses, mini bosses, if possible. Baby bosses. Baby bosses. That's like a prerequisite because I have to try to get you to choose me over this great ambition you have. Wow.

That's some real insight. I mean, I don't know that when this is happening. No, of course you don't. But I'm eating like a firecracker and I'm like, I'm so attracted. They got their own thing going. They're fucking on it and they're driven. That's so hot to me if you're a badass. But ultimately...

I want to know I come before whatever that thing is because I wanted that from my mom because she was a gangster and she started her own business. I, of course, want to be chosen over that. Your mom must know this. Oh, I've interviewed my mom. Oh, and so you've busted this all out. Oh, we got deep. She's very open. Yeah, she's incredible. Probably I've never met someone that's so capable of talking with someone about the things that were hard or have gone bad and living in it. Good for you. It's a huge gift.

But I'm curious because now we share a lot of this stuff. Three years old, my parents got divorced. You were four? I was three. Okay. My dad left when I was three. He's an alcoholic. My dad got sober when I was like 15. So I think that's probably a key difference. Key. My dad tried to get sober, but I don't think he quite got sober. But I didn't have a relationship with my dad after three. And mom raised you and your sister? Yes. Were there stepdads? Stepboyfriends. Okay. So I had a lot of stepdads.

Really? Like your mom married? Yeah, she loved to visit that church every few years. I understand. Yeah. I know. I saw your batting average and I was like, oh yeah, I like this. There's safety in marriage. It wasn't about church. I only got married in church once, though. Yeah, and I don't think she actually likes church. She just somehow found herself there quite often. That's the irony. That's kind of a metaphor for the whole thing. Yeah. And we both saw our moms get beat up.

We did. And it produced a very specific outcome for me. Really? What's your outcome? I will kill anyone that...

that I sense is going to hurt anyone I love. I was so powerless. My dedication to myself was I'm going to grow up and I'm going to be big and that'll never happen. I'll always be able to protect the people I love. Huge chip on my shoulder, hate bullies, hate authority. That was the outcome for me as a male. And I think that's a predictable outcome, right? I think my brother's similar. Is there a predictable outcome for women? I have those same feelings, but I'm a woman. I think you're right. That is what that creates.

I saw my mother abused and I saw my sister also abused by my dad, but never me. He never turned that rage towards me or I never got in the way of the rage. I always ran and hid. I didn't stand up to it where my sister stood up to it and so she got it. I didn't stand up to it at that time and I had a lot of guilt because I didn't get...

beaten up. I didn't do anything to defend them. I was too afraid. And I would go in the closet. It's scary. Yeah, it is scary. But mine wasn't when I was three. Like my dad came back in 1976 when I was 10. My mother thought that mainly my sister needed a dad around. She was sort of going off the rails and she thought, okay, he needs to come back. So she called this alcoholic ex-husband back thinking, oh yeah, this will help our situation. And it just caused a lot of pain and fighting and

drama. I have had a lot of guilt over the years to work through that I didn't do anything and it didn't happen to me either. Well, you did do something. In your head, you didn't do anything, but running is a survival technique. You were surviving. Everyone was in their own way. Yeah, but what that did do, because I felt so cowardice then, when I had a chance to fight again or stand up, I was

unstoppable. I spent a lot of my high school years fighting in fights, being jumped. I became a fighter. It was a lot of making up for doing nothing and trying to avenge myself and trying to feel better about myself because I didn't stand up when I felt like I should have or could have.

Even though that's not true, but that was my self-talk. I think for a lot of people, they're judgmental or it's illogical. But for me, it's quite logical because the other thing was way more painful. I agree. But then people have to live with us. Oh, that part. Do you feel like you're attracted to chaos or were at some point because of that upbringing? Actually, I think I chose partners because I so wanted the picket fence. I wanted the stability of a family because I didn't have it.

I wanted the perfect marriage with the kids, with the van. Well, you got the van. Yeah. I got the van though now.

But I wanted stability. I didn't want fighting. The last thing I remember, my dad, he hadn't been in my life for a while, but he showed up to my high school graduation. He was drunk off his ass. But here's the sad thing. He didn't have a car, but he knew it was my graduation. And he walked there. And at the graduation, I didn't even speak to him because I was so ashamed that he was there and he was drunk. And he was, that's my daughter. I didn't want to even acknowledge she existed.

But driving home, I will never forget, I was looking out the window and there I saw my dad walking down the freeway, walking home. And he was such a monster in my mind. But I knew in that moment he wasn't a monster and that he did love me. And he was the product of the growing and the love and the care he never had. He didn't know how to love us. In that one moment, I got who my dad was and loved.

I felt healed of a lot of my childhood trauma and drama because I got it. Yeah, and he did the best he could. And it wasn't enough, but he wasn't given enough. So it's like the chicken and the egg. So whose fault is it? And so I knew in that moment, all I could do was try to make decisions that would make

my life better and different. So that's when I went on this search for the perfect home life. It's hard to go out and just go shopping and pick the perfect life off the shelf. It is. Yeah. I used to think I could. Well, I'm glad you had that moment. My dad died of cancer in 2012.

I was gifted a similar moment where I'm looking at this guy and he's the big bad wolf in my head in so many ways. I sided with my mother. She was perfect. He was the bad guy. Not true. And I was looking at him in this bed. I had just changed his diaper, in fact.

What was that like? Hilarious. I go, time for me to change. I totally humiliated him. And I was talking to him like he was a baby and he was laughing and it was quite sweet and funny. But I was looking at him in this bed and I got to go like, oh my God, this is just a little boy too. He just was in this older body and he had the title of my dad. I expected so much of him because he had that title and he's just a little boy who's now scared.

And this is all happening and kind of like dissolved so much stuff, which is embarrassing. I needed to see him so pitiful. I could see he was just a person in this walking on the highway again is like very pitiful and sad. And my dad got so small in that moment. And like all of us, I'm looking at you right now, Dax. We're just these little kids that we used to be. And now we just got a little bit bigger. These old ass bodies. Yeah. But we're still those little kids. We all are.

And I know my kids now look at me and they think I got some answers to some things. I loathe the moment when they're going to figure it out. Oh, she's just a regular little crackers like me. She's as scared of things as I am. She's just as full of shit as all of us. Well, you know that day's coming. Yeah. When I read about your high school experience on paper, it seems like the dream.

Because you were a cheerleader and an honor student and the editor of your paper, and you were the prom queen. This seems like what we would see in a movie. You're like the Molly Ringwald character in something. I know, right? Was it as spectacular as it looks?

No. It wasn't? No. But all the things were happening. Yeah, you got all the credentials. You got all the cash and prizes. That was only because I had moved into an all-white suburb, an all-white school. I'd come from the inner city. All the kids were black. The teachers were black. It was all black. Were you black enough in that neighborhood? Sometimes I was black enough until my mom came to school. Yeah.

And all of a sudden, oh, she ain't black. But I was black. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But my mom being this blonde, blue-eyed woman made all the kids kind of look at me a little sideways. So that started to make me have problems in that world. I wasn't black enough or the rumors of I was adopted, that really wasn't my mother.

And then that made me question, well, was I? Identity. I had a identity crisis very early on. Did you deal with any, like, embarrassment? And I'll bring Monica into this now. Monica was very other. She wasn't excited if kids were going to come over and see Indian-ness in her household. And was any of that happening, which would be so normal? Yeah, well, I didn't like that I had to explain it. I was too little to be explaining this. You don't even know. I was in first grade. I think she's my mother. She says she is. Ha ha ha.

It's the only one I've ever known. She feeds me. Yeah. Seems right. She's doing all the mom shit. Yeah. So those weren't really conversations that I wanted to have. But my mom, one day she tells a story. She saw the high school that we would be going to and she got terrified because it was, you know, a lot of drugs and fighting. So she thought the right thing was to do was get us out of that environment and take us to this all white suburb, which...

was great in some ways because yes, we were at a better school, we got a better education, but we were the only black kids. How much older is your sister than you? She's two years. And how's she getting on? We had the same issues. We get to a new school and we're sort of fish out of water. And there's she and I and maybe three other kids in the whole 2,500-kid school district.

So we're very much outsiders. And I did all those things you talked about just to prove that I was good enough. I didn't feel good enough. I didn't feel like I fit in. I didn't feel smart enough. I didn't feel pretty enough. I didn't feel anything enough.

So all of those things were, God, no one has a chance. No, everyone's fucked. Of course I felt terrible. That's what we should let all the listeners take from this. You're not enough. And I know we laugh, but it's very true. When you're black, you're a little girl and the symbol of beauty is blonde and blue. And my mother was that, but I was not.

And I was made to feel every single day that I was not that symbol of beauty. I was not smart. I did not fit in to this world. And this is where the competitive part of me kicked in. I thought, oh, really? I'm going to die showing you that I am as good as I am as smart as I'm going to run all this shit up here. And that's what I did. I don't think it's the competitor. It's the fighter. I will not be oppressed by you. I will not be controlled by you. I'm going to win at this at all costs. Yeah.

He did. I was determined. I won Bedford High School. Except we had to vote for our prom queen. You must have a prom queen.

a queen. We must have a queen. We can't have a prom without a queen. No, we gotta have a queen. So we vote for this queen and I legit win prom queen. But the administration of the school, they thought, no, no, no, this little black girl, she is now the head of the newspaper, the cheerleader, the honor society, and now she's the queen? No, she can't be the queen. So they accused me of stuffing the ballot box. Of rigging the election. Of rigging the little election. And I was like, how on earth would I actually do that? But okay.

So my mom had to go up there and it was a whole big thing. And it's all about, had I done this terrible thing? Oh my God. I would love to know in their mind how they made it make sense. Like I know what she did. She put her own name in 1100 or whatever. I would love to know what their story was.

was because it's preposterous because you weren't counting the votes. No, I had nothing to do with it. Right. How do you even get alerted? Is it our announcement over the loudspeaker? Do you remember how you were told? Yes, because every morning after the bell, they make announcements and they announced this is the prom queen. But then after they announced it, I'm all like, well, I'm the queen.

I'm the queen. I get called into the office. No, you're not the queen. There is a problem with who won the election. And I'm like, oh, really? What would that be? And that's when they said, well, we didn't think this was fair. We have reason to believe you had something to do with the rigging of this. And we think Vicky Kunkel really won. Oh, my God. Oh, Vicky Kunkel. Vicky. We don't even know her and we know she definitely didn't win. She didn't win. She did not win. She had other qualities, but she didn't win this election. She was blonde and beautiful. Oh, my God.

And she won it. That's what they told me. What ended up happening? My mom came up there, raised all kinds of hell. Yeah, good. Absolutely not. Kunkel is not the queen. Too much alliteration. Kunkel is not the queen. We present to you Queen Kunkel. Maybe they thought it sounded better.

It does not sound like that. Queen Barry sounds a little too, like, maybe it's a jam, maybe it's a character. Queen Conkle. And she was a nice person. Yeah, we like Vicky. I'm sure. I remember Vicky. She was very nice. That's not her fault. That's not her fault. She was as stuck as I was. But what the school decided the appropriate thing to do was is that we should toss a coin. What? What?

And whoever wins this coin toss would be the queen. Were you aware at the time that this was racist? Oh, yeah. You were. You knew you were like, oh, this is obviously because of this. I knew the whole school was racist. Right. That's why I was working so hard. Okay. I just thought, here we go. Now you're going to accuse me of this. So we tossed the coin. Between you and I, did you rig the election? No. What if Andre liked the game? So I did put in a couple extra points.

It was Kunkel. It was Kunkel all along. Queen Kunkel. I'll announce it on your show. Queen Kunkel really was the brown queen. Big shout out to Queen Kunkel because she's probably here. Someone in her life will tell her that we were talking about her. So big shout out to her. Big shout out to Queen Kunkel. Yeah, thanks for playing along with us. Hope she's doing great. Me too. But anyway, I won the coin toss. Of course you did because you were destined to be queen. Yeah, I was destined to be queen. Yeah.

Were you going by Hallie at that time or were you going by Maria? Thank you for asking me this. This is a big rumor. I was not born Maria Hallie. My mother, for whatever reason on my birth certificate, the doctor put Maria Hallie. I got home and my mom says the story. 30 days later, she realized they got your name backwards. So at that time, before I was even six months old, my mom went and filed an affidavit and got my name properly because my sister's name is Heidi and she had to have another H. Ah.

So we're both Heidi and Hallie and our middle names are both Maria. So you're all HMB. In case we got monogram sweaters. You could grow into it.

Yes, hand me down. Smart. And Hallie was the name of a department store in Cleveland. Is that true? Yes, Hallie Brothers. And your parents, by the way, feels like a harbinger of bad things to come, but they did meet on the psych ward at a hospital, right? They were both working in the psych ward? They did. Wow. That is ominous. Like if you're reading the script, you'd go, great script. I think their origin story is a little much. Like, did they have to meet in the psych ward? That would be my note. A little on the note.

It's a little on the nose for what was to come. My mom was a nurse and my dad was the janitor. Okay. And he would maybe help hold some people maybe sometimes? Oh, restrain? Maybe. Maybe. We don't know. That's just my guess. How do pageants come into your life? I don't know.

I got into pageants because my boyfriend, when I was 16 years old, had this weird fantasy of having a beauty pageant queen girlfriend. He was fixed on it. Oh, wow. I've never met anyone that was their, I guess, kink. Well, that was his. Oh, wow. Okay. And then did you go out exploring like, well, I got to find a pageant or did he bring one to you? He brought it to me. Oh, wow.

This is incredible. He took my high school picture and he sent it into the pageant, the Miss Teen Ohio. He read about it in the paper. And then I just remember getting a note in the mail saying, you have been accepted for the Miss Teen Ohio pageant. He then told me, I sent your picture in, so now you got to go. Of all the weird things I've heard a boyfriend do, this has really made its way to the top 10. Submitting your girlfriend without her permission to a pageant is really something. Okay, so...

You have to report to somewhere? You have to then call them back, let them know you are going to come, and they tell you all the rules and what you need and what day to be there, and that's kind of all they said. So I just showed up, brought my prom dress and a bathing suit, and I won. Did you get money? Yes. Oh.

How much did you get? Do you remember? I don't remember how much I got for that pageant, but I remember the national pageant what I got because that was at the time big stuff for me. The state pageant was probably maybe about $5,000. Oh my goodness. That's nice. In high school? Yeah. Maybe some jewelry. Yeah. Something like that. Maybe some vouchers at the mall to shop certain places. Maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the next one is Miss... Yeah, then you go to the Miss Teen America pageant. Yes. Teen America.

Teen All-American. And you were runner up for that one? I won that. That's where I got all the good stuff. I got like a Chrysler LeBaron. No, you did not. I got a LeBaron. You won a LeBaron. I did. A fur coat. No. When you could still wear fur. Yeah. I wouldn't wear a fur coat now. I don't still have it. Right, right, right. But at that time. At that time, like a fox.

Yeah. Was the LeBaron a drop top? Was it a convertible LeBaron? It was a convertible LeBaron. It was white. Oh, fuck. With the fur coat. With like a nice set of rims on it. And how old were you? 17. What?

Oh, my God. Just got my driver's license, had a brand new ride. Hallie, I would, you can't even imagine what I would be willing to win in order to get the LeBaron and the fur coat at 17. I know. It was pretty amazing. Oh, my God. And then I got 10,000 cash. Wow. On top of that. Oh, my God. Yeah, it was like a big deal at that point. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

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Were you having a hard time reconciling if your identity was I'm not pretty and I'm not worthy? These people are telling me. Was there dissonance there? It was a huge come up for me. It was huge validation. That's why when I think about my pageant experience,

to some people, like winning a pageant is frivolous. But for me, because I had felt so unseen and unworthy for so much of my high school years, this moment just really felt validating. I felt finally I was accepted. I was good enough. For me, it was everything. Of course. You know, black little girls weren't winning beauty pageants. Yeah. We weren't there yet. I want to say when you were in the world, you were one of the first that had ever been in. Yeah. This was before Vanessa Williams. That's huge. Yeah.

Yes. Okay, so then after that, we go in 89 to New York? About 89, yes. How do you know this stuff? Well, I read about it. I have a sheep and I'm going to try to impress you and not look at it.

You go to New York to act. First, I go to Chicago. What do you do in Chicago? Are you going to try to do theater? I am there modeling because the woman that ran my Miss Ohio pageant, she had a modeling agency there called Chicago Model Group. I was going to go to college right after that, but I was so exhausted from high school. Yeah, yeah. I thought, I'm going to take a minute.

And I'm going to go to Chicago. I'm going to model, save some money, and then I'll figure out where I'm going to go. Yeah, because presumably you could have gotten into anywhere because you had the honors and the editor and all this shit. I was ready to go. But I emotionally needed a break because I was burned out doing all of that. Yeah, yeah. And so she said, come to Chicago. I'll hook you up with modeling and make a bag of cash. Like, just relax for a year and then figure it out.

out what you're going to do. I said, okay. Well, that was a big bunch of crap because when I got there, she never told me it would be her in a one bedroom apartment with like 15 other girls sleeping on the floor in beanbags. You know, I had this idea of what it was going to be. And then I realized, oh, this is not the first time I've heard this story. Yeah. We've heard this story a few times. People relocate and there's a manager, there's an agent and they get there and they're like, oh, wow, I guess we're all living here.

I guess we're all living together in one bathroom. About six months after that, I was like, no. So I pulled one of the girls aside. I said, let's go get our own place. So I had a roommate for a while. And then my foray into acting was I went to Second City, but only because I was bored. It wasn't because I thought I would have a career as an actor. I just wanted something to do in the evenings.

And I also heard that some really funny, good looking guys went there. - Okay, okay, they hung out there? - They hung out there. - Yeah, yeah. - So I thought, let me just find something to do socially, make some friends. - I'm trying to think in that era who was like on main stage there. Do you remember any of the folks? - Nobody famous that I remember. - 'Cause like Chris Farley would have been... - Chris Farley wasn't there when I was there. - But so many people came out in that. - So many people. I didn't stay super long because I got my manager, which took me to New York.

because I met him while I was in Chicago. But I'm not sure I would have stayed in Second City because it really wasn't what I wanted to do. But I knew that I was meant to be there because I was told while I was there, have you ever thought about acting? And I said, well, no, not really. And I was told, you should really take that seriously. I see something in you that I think you should nurture. So because I was given that little piece of information,

When this manager called me up out of the blue, that stuck in my head. And this manager called me up and just said, hey, are you Halle Berry? I said, yeah. He said, do you know Sandy Ferguson? Yeah. She was my roommate in the Miss Teen pageant. She's on a soap opera and they're looking for a bubbly girl like her and she mentioned your name. Have you ever acted?

I said, no. Do you want to? I remember what they said. Do you want to be a star? Yeah. I was like, okay, okay. He said, come to New York. I have an audition for us. So because I was told that I had some talent, I didn't know what that talent might be. I thought, maybe this is what it is. We talk about this all the time. Someone gives you the tiniest bit of encouragement. Like literally, that's all it takes sometimes. Changes are

whole life. It changes the trajectory of your whole life. I know. And it makes me think you got to like encourage people around you because over and over again on here, we hear someone just heard one little thing like that and it gave them the gumption. But you go out there and pretty quick in New York, you land a spinoff of Who's the Boss?

I did. Living dolls. In your filming, is it your first taping of the show? Is this when you go into a coma? Not the first taping. Not the first, thank goodness. Okay. I was like, what a bad first day on set. Wait, what? It was sort of at the end of the first season. You know, I had never worked 12 hours straight a day in my life. And I realized after having to work that hard, how I had really been self-medicating for a very, very, very long time throughout my childhood.

But with diabetes, you know, nothing hurts. You have dry mouth, you urinate a lot, you sleep, you eat candy and then you zone out. So I realized I was self-medicating and I had this issue, but I didn't tell my mother because nothing hurt. So I didn't see the doctor because nothing hurt.

And you're not thinking diabetes. You don't know anything about it, right? I just think sometimes I'm tired. But why wouldn't I be tired? Look what I was doing in high school. Yeah, yeah. This was the first time I really could not medicate. I could not take a nap when I wanted to take a nap. I had to really power through. And by the end of that first season, I got so sick that I ended up passing out. Woke up in the hospital three days later. Three days. I woke up with the where am I? I had no clue where I was.

Yeah, you were working. And then all of a sudden I was somewhere in a room. And when I first opened my eyes, here's the not so funny thing, there was nobody in the room with me. Oh. When I first opened my eyes, I was in a room. I was cold and I was looking up at a ceiling and I had no idea how I got up.

to where I was. And I remember having the feeling of like moving my feet, moving my hand, seeing if everything moved on me. If you were paralyzed or something. Paralyzed. Yes, yes. Or if I was even alive. I had this feeling of, is this what the afterlife looks like? Have I gone somewhere? Poorly decorated. Not well lit. If I can be critical. It was very scary. My cousin's experience with it, he was 19. He's on a snowboarding trip. Again, he's missed all these signals and he would get thirsty. When he'd get thirsty, he'd go get the like 60 ounce slushie. Sugar. Sugar.

Medicaid. It should make you fucking worse, right? Yes. And so he was on this snowboard trip in northern Utah and he went out. He had to get airlifted. Then he had to get moved to another hospital. And I forget what the number's supposed to be, your blood sugar level. But his was beyond what it could test. Like 90 would be good. Yeah, and his was like 1,300. The first test they gave him maxed out the machine. Wow.

He was worse than me then. Was he in a coma? I wonder if he went into a coma. But since 19, he's insulin every day and the whole thing. But yeah, no clue. It's so scary because you're right. It's not like anything hurts. What was your blood sugar? Do you know? Mine was like 875. A 90s idea? It's supposed to be 90. Anywhere from fasting 90. If you eat 120, I think would be like a good range. It was really up there. And every

Everybody's body deals with those high numbers differently. What would send one into a coma may not someone else. When I woke up, I was all alone. I had no family in LA with me. I didn't even have my manager living in LA at that time because I'd just finished the first season of the show.

And they told me, you will now be on insulin for the rest of your life. And that's a very scary thing when you're 19 years old and you think disease and you think, I'm going to die well before my time. This is bad. My life's just starting, but now I'm finding out it's going to end prematurely. Yeah, I finally get on TV. The thing I didn't even know I needed, but now I'm on here. It was a very challenging, scary time.

And when you were given, I presume, a protocol, and was that hard for you to maintain when you're young and you're keeping track of all this shit and you're just trying to move about? Especially working. I'm no longer on insulin. But when you're on insulin, everything has to be very regimented. You have to monitor the times you eat in conjunction to when you take your shots. I've been around him when this has happened and it scared the shit out of me. We're at Kristen's old house and we're looking at the view. And then all of a sudden he turns to me and he's like really hanging on by a thread.

And he's like, you gotta give me apple juice. And he's like kind of going. And so you would think it's just like, oh, you gotta watch your sugar. But no, he's on an insulin schedule. But then if he has the insulin, he doesn't have the sugar. Now it's the opposite. Then you need sugar. Yes. And that's almost even more dangerous than the high sugar. Hypo. When I was on insulin, I always had to carry something sweet. I always carry Jolly Ranchers because that was something that I could suck on really quick and go right to my bloodstream. That worked for me. Everybody has something different. Did you have a favorite flavor? Watermelon.

That's a good flavor.

The raspberry's nice, too, though. Oh. Raspberry's very nice. I like green. The green apple. Yeah, the green's nice. Watermelon is nice, though. And I don't think watermelon's my favorite flavor anywhere else but a Jolly Rancher. I would agree. They have a proprietary watermelon formula that works. Watermelon juice is the nastiest thing I've ever had. No, thank you. No, thank you. And I don't like eating watermelon. You have to spit half the thing out that you eat. You like that? That's weird. Yeah.

Do you eat fish with the bones in it? Exactly. Yeah. Well, Van does. He eats sardines and you eat the bones with sardines. Did you know that? No. I didn't either until I saw him doing this recently. I was like, bro, what are you doing? Eat those in the closet. And did you know that sardines can be really, like, I thought they were little in the little cans that we get. No, no, no. He pulled out some sardines that were like, they look like the size of a soul. That's some country stuff there. That's some country stuff.

That's some Dayton shit right there. And he had to nerve to have them fried. Oh, he's really going for it. I bet his Omega-3s are off the charts. Oh my God, his skin is so good. Yeah, I'm enviable. I just found out my Omega-3s are in the toilet. You don't like fish? You got to maybe get into it a little bit more. You don't eat fish? I don't eat fish. I can do spicy tuna at sushi. Okay.

Okay. But, you know, you can take fish oils. Yeah, I'm going to have to start doing that pronto. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You moved to L.A. then quickly thereafter. The show shot in L.A. Okay, so you went to New York. I got called to go do that audition, came to do the audition, didn't get the soap opera job. Unfortunately for me, because I would love to hear how you memorized 36 pages of dialogue. I never did it. Okay, good.

The guy who called me out there wanted to be my manager and he said, "You didn't get that, but I think you'll get something soon. Move to New York." So I did and started to try to study in New York. And I did some classes with William Esper at a school and I started studying and going down this path now. I was an unwilling participant because I wasn't so sure this is really what I wanted to do. I thought I wanted to be a journalist.

And I kept thinking, I'm going to go to college. I'm really going to go be a journalist. I'm really not going to be actor. I didn't think I could make a living doing this. And because it wasn't my dream, I always thought that actors that became successful had this dream since they were little. They were the theater kids. Like that's the one thing I couldn't do in my high school. I couldn't be the queen. I could not be the lead of the play, no matter how hard I tried. So I just didn't think this was attainable for me.

Yeah. What I love is that your capacity and what you proved to do at some point that we'll get to is,

is so next level, there's no right or wrong start to it. I like it. Well, also that you can't get in a play and then you do what you end up doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Such a cherry on top. I'm not going to make you go through all of them, but I am going to make you go through some of them. They're just the ones that I think there's a neat story about. So 91 is Jungle Fever, Spike Lee. And what I dig about this is you kind of talked him into playing the drug addict. He wanted me to play his wife. Of course, who wouldn't want you to play their wife? Yeah.

Broken seat. Rose eyes work. And I did not want to play his wife. But my manager at the time, same guy. I'm still on the phone. I don't know if this guy's good or bad. I'm like waiting to find out whether he was shady or legit. Yeah, his voice sounds like a villain. Yeah, he's like, hey, little girl, you like being a star? Yeah.

He changed my life. I would not have this career had I not met Vince. He was always a good guy for me. Great. There was a story to it, but for me, he was a good guy. There's always a story. Yeah. But anyway, he told me, you should go on this audition anyway. I said, but I don't want to play that part. I don't want to play the pretty girl. I said, I'm trying to get away from that. If I'm going to act, I want to... You want to be taken seriously. Yeah.

So he's like, go on it anyway. You have to start in film somehow. Because Living Dolls, I was playing a model. So that wasn't a stretch. And I realized on that show, I was just sort of the token black character. I started every scene with like, hello, and ended every scene with, come on, guys, let's go. It was not what I was wanting. Easy to remember, though. Yeah, easy to remember. Lines wise. You forget your lines. You're like, well, it's one of the two lines I always say. It's either hello. I can't remember if I'm saying hello or let's get out of here. Hello or goodbye.

But so I went because he told me to go. And he goes, you know, you got to start somewhere. And it's good to know Spike. He's influential in the business. He makes lots of movies. He's like, go. And after I do that reading, I muster the courage to say, Mr. Lee, thank you for allowing me to read for this part. But I really have my eye on that crack hole part. Can you please let me read for that? And of course, he said no. And I begged. I said, please let me go in the bathroom. Wash all this off. I'll show you. I'm the crack hole. In fact, I smoke crack in the car on the way here just so you know. I'm very method. All right.

I'm hot. I just turned a trick minutes ago.

No. But he let me. You know what I like about that decision? It is weirdly counterintuitive, but I think there's something powerful actually about your beauty and in that role because it makes it extra powerful. Thank you for that. But I also have always known that, first of all, beauty is subjective. What one thinks is beautiful, someone else does not. Yeah. Once in a while, everyone agrees you happen to be that case. But go ahead, continue. I bet your point is still very valid. I do.

I do have a valid point. Beauty spares no one any real life circumstance or any hardship. So that's been my mantra since I started. Who cares what I look like? I'm human. There's a possibility that I can go through any experience. Don't get it twisted. And so this gave me a chance to be exactly as I was, but be a crackhead. And guess what? Hot girls get addicted to drugs. All the time. I've partied with them quite often when I was a drug addict. Yes. And look at you. Who

Who would have thought? If you believe in that ideology, that would have never been your reality. It's not supposed to be me. Look at you. I'm supposed to be with Queen Kunkel. Yeah. I mean, not really. I wasn't that guy in high school, but let's just say for the time being. But you're a handsome guy. Like this shouldn't affect you. You're smart. I remember like that being a stereotype. You know, even when I entered AA 20 years ago, it wasn't anything like it was in the 50s. So I'm not even claiming I had the experience. But...

The general consensus was like, oh, these are people who lack willpower. They're dumb. They didn't realize when everyone else was being taught drugs are dangerous. They somehow didn't understand that. You know, there's just a lot of assumptions about why. Not like, oh, they might be regulating some really terrible feelings and they might be smart as hell and it might be your doctor and it might be whatever. May I ask you a question? Yeah, yeah, of course. What precipitated that? Was it a defining moment? Did something happen? It wasn't the movie version where there was a bottom line.

There were numerous bottoms. There were numerous times I was like, well, that's it. You barely lived through that one. You're going to get together then three months. But ultimately, I think this weird thing happens when you're an addict. You're so focused on making sure no one around you knows what's going on or keeping up the facade. I was also going to UCLA and I was taking classes at the Groundlings and I was doing all the things one's supposed to do and trying to be a high functioning addict. Your measure of if it's working is whether or not you're

pulling it off and you're failing to look at how miserable you are and how

shame-filled you are and how ultimately you end up suicidal. I think for any addict, at some point you're like, I would rather be dead than be on this ride anymore. I did Punk'd. I did another movie. I was about to start a movie and I was like, I'm going to go to Hawaii and I'm going to party for one week and then I'm going to get sober for the movie. And I had this crazy week in Hawaii and there was cops and there was violence and there was a lot of stuff. And I

made it to my layover in San Francisco on the way home, and I went into a bar, and I was so sick from the week I had to drink to continue on to fly, so I'm like, I'm gonna drink a few Jack and Diets. There's a mirror, like the proverbial mirror at this bar, and I have everything I had hoped to get. People recognized me while I was in Hawaii. I was about to make a million dollars, which was completely unforeseeable for me. Every one of the things...

had been checked off the list and I felt the worst I'd ever felt. And I was like, oh shit, something's very broken because you have all the shit that was supposed to make you feel good. It was very scary.

Like, oh no, well, if I have all the stuff and I feel this way, there's nothing else to get. We got to figure out what is actually the thing. And what was your drug? Cocaine and Jack and Diets. Oh. Yeah, I love cocaine. It smells so good. See, I've been so afraid of cocaine. I can't imagine sniffing anything up my nose. You can't. No. You'd get over it after the first one. Well, it's like...

Because I wouldn't be able to feel my nose anymore. Is that how it works? One of the reasons, and then you would go, oh, every time I do that, I feel this. The reward system would take over pretty quickly. No one's recommending it here. No. No, no, I know that. Clearly in your life, there were people that were doing coke around you. I have never seen anyone do coke other than in the movies. Really? Nobody. In your long Hollywood life. I've never seen anyone actually do cocaine.

Wow. Are you attracted to addicts, though? Well, I had one husband who said he was a sex addict, but I don't fucking believe that shit. Okay. That's some bullshit. Even though my dad was an alcoholic, I have not been attracted to that. That makes sense. You, to me, not that I think you are or ever were, but you have much more of an addict personality, in my opinion.

I do. Like the competitive nature? Well, just like a codependent would be attracted to you. Oh, now you might be onto something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you're very dynamic, self-assured. You know where you're going. I could get obsessed with like, oh, make sure they're good. And, you know, I could see people falling into that quite easily if that's what they're attracted to. Right. Okay. Jungle fever. Now I am going to look. Okay. Because it was the least important part. Okay.

the list of things. But I do have a couple movies I want to stop in on. Were you proud of yourself after that? Jungle Fever? Yeah. I really was. More than the movie, I was proud that I dared to tell the great Spike Lee I want to do something else. And I advocated for myself and I ended up getting the thing I wanted. And I got to start my movie career with a role like that. That wasn't about my physical self that really got to show what I could do as an artist. And that was a good way to start. There's also tremendous power when people meet you in something that's great. You have it for life.

D'Onofrio is a good friend of mine. And so you come out in Full Metal Jacket and you put in that performance. The rest of your career, people minimally will go like, well, he can do anything should we want to give it to him. Yes, it's yours. Nobody takes it away. I'm only mentioning this one simply because I found this interesting. Losing Isaiah, you play another drug addict. You can't wait to play another drug addict. Give me another drug addict to sink my teeth into.

kid, you're going to be a star. You're going to play drug addicts. Written by Naomi Gyllenhaal. Jake's mom. Yes, and his dad directed it. Yeah. Stephen Gyllenhaal directed it. I only bring that up because we've had Jake on a couple times and we've learned about his mother and father and that's sweet. I've always had such a fondness in my heart for Jake since he was a little boy then and he was always around and he and I used to crush on each other, like not in a sick way, but I thought he was the cutest and he thought I was somehow special. He's always like my little Jakey.

Yeah, he's hard not to think is cute. He's impossibly cute. And then this is another weird one I'm going to bring up simply because I'm obsessed with him. He might not like this, but executive decision. Seagal was in it. And I follow all these accounts. There's so many accounts about Steven Seagal. There's so many things we could talk about. One is he put out a reggae album singing in a reggae voice. Impossible. Can't make this up. No, I played it on here. I mean, it's incredible. There's the edited video of him describing who his mom was.

And she's from every country. Many interviews over the years. My mom's Chinese and she came from the Mandarin area. Next interview, my mother's Cuban. I grew up Cuban. My mother's Russian. He has claimed to be every single thing. And that his mother was everything. And it's just a wild thing to observe. And do we really know what his mother was? No one knows. No way to know. Do you think he was doing that so that he had some validity to do reggae? I think...

He is extremely entitled and feels like he should be a part of every ethnicity. He plays a Native American in a lot of movies. He plays Italian in movies. He plays Russian. By the way, I relate a little bit, unfortunately. Unfortunately being the word. Yes. And I've recognized it in myself. It's like, I don't like that I can't be a part of something. But he took it to the max. Here's something he told me. When we did do that movie, he told me he had a machine he could hook me up to and cure my diabetes.

Oh, wow. Just need to come on over to his house. Let me talk to you for a second. Wow. My mother invented diabetes machines. She did? Oh, my God. His Cuban mother. She's from the Amazon rainforest where they have natural cures and machines. Wow. Did you take him up on that offer?

You said you stopped using insulin. Exactly, exactly. What if the missing part of that story was you were cured by Steven Seagal's machine?

No. I was smart enough to know at a very young age not to fall for those things. Steven Seagal types. Machines and people's houses and cures. Yeah, I had a little bit more going on in the brain. You had some savvy. This one is just a really weird, we believe in the simulation, kind of. We're intrigued by it. Are you intrigued by the simulation? Yes.

You have to be. I think anyone who's had a really lucky life, you got to start questioning like, I don't know, really? So I think that occasionally this is all too kind of good to be true. Yes. I just think you doing introducing Dorothy Dandridge...

It's so sim. It's so sim. The year after she died, I was born. I feel like something, you know, soul regroups and come back and I get a chance to finish what she started. I had a knowing. Once I became an actor and my manager said to me, if you could create any role for yourself, what would it be? Without even thinking, I said, well, Dorothy Dandridge. She was the first African-American woman to be nominated. And so for me to go on to be the first one to win it, I knew it was finishing her work. It was almost as if

In some ways, I knew it should happen, but because there's free will in this world, I didn't know if it would happen. Yes, you're going to have to make some right decisions along the way. It's not just going to knock on your door. And it's not just me. That voting is a bunch of people with a bunch of free will who may not be ready for the first black woman to win this award. But I knew I should do it for her, but I didn't know if I would do it for her. Yes, you're playing her in this moment.

movie, but it's made for TV. I won an Emmy for that, but she never got nominated for an Emmy. But when I was in Monster's Ball, that's what the Oscar nomination was for. And some weird things happened with her and some address that her manager gave me, some lights in my apartment in London while I was working happened. I knew her spirit, her

energy, whatever that is, was around me and was with me. It's just wild you would honor her in such a way and then go on to do the thing that she should have got is fucking cool. Yeah. Very Sim. Very Sim. And that's only two years later you do Monsters Ball. I'm guessing you don't know you're about to do something that's going to end in that result.

Yeah, you're just like, this is an interesting movie. It's probably a big swing for you. It's challenging. I just knew I wanted to do something that could once again show...

talent to play dark characters that took me to places that people wouldn't expect me to go. It was no money. It was a very small movie. And my agents at the time, I remember them telling me, are you sure you want to do this? Like this could end your career. There's a lot of nudity. And they really tried to talk me out of it. It was high risk, little reward. It's kind of their job to point that out to some degree. Yeah. I hope this is so I worked with Billy Bob and I just fucking love him so much. I think he's

Howie. Me too. This is when he was wearing the blood around his neck. You know, he and Angie had blood necklaces. I just got this new necklace. What an era. It's got blood in it. Yeah. Oh, I love him so much. He's great. I love him too. He's magic, right? He's magic. There's a couple magic people floating around planet Earth. Maybe they're a part of the Sim too. They're like extra points or something. Yeah, they have coins above their head like in Mario World. Ding, ding.

Yeah, exactly. Very special. I got to tell you this. Maybe this would amuse you. I saw Sling Blade, thought the guy was a genius. No question. But then I was watching it like, oh, wow, he landed Angelina Jolie. This guy has got some real rhythm that I'm not personally seeing. I start doing this movie with him and I'm around him and I'm like, I'm falling in love with him. I think he's so cool. But what really happened is I went out to eat with him and my wife.

And he looked at my wife and he started talking. I watched my wife turn into a monarch butterfly. I was like, holy smokes, this guy's got like some kind of freaky fucking power.

And she'd be the first to admit it. Like the second he locked eyes with her, she was like, oh, I'm in love with this guy. And I'm like, oh, I 100% get it now. I've witnessed it in real life. He's powerful. He was the first one to tell me once he sits down on the plane, he then watches everybody go by. And if he can't imagine each one of those people as an old person, he gets off the plane because he assumes the plane's going to crash. No way.

So imagine how long it takes him to get places. Oh, my God. Well, I remember when we were first starting to work together, we were in Boston. I go, where are you staying? Are you at the Ritz or one of the hotels that I would have assumed he was at? And he goes, no, I had to get out of there. The fabric on the windows was too much shit. You just think about all the shit that's collected in that fabric. I had to get somewhere with no fabric in there. And I'm like, oh, my goodness. He took one look at those drapes and was like, get me the fuck out of here. I know.

He's so good. You were supposed to be here a week ago. I tried to get on 14 planes. No one was old enough in my head. Couldn't do it. No, but I do want to clear up something. This has plagued Billy Bob and I since we did that movie. We had this very explicit love scene. There's an urban legend that we really were fucking. I've heard it. And it's just not true. I believe you. I've perpetuated that. Can I tell you that? I know. I'm so sorry. Oh.

I've heard of two. Do you know the other one? What's the other one? Angel Heart, Mickey Rourke, and Lisa Bonet. I've heard that too. Okay, great. Now, if we take you out of it, can we take you out of it for one second? No, because I'm in it. You cannot take me out of it. We're going to take you out of it for one second. Against the rules. Here's why those things are so sticky and enjoyable. Because...

The love of my life was Lisa Bonet. She is the number one most beautiful human to ever walk on planet Earth. Mickey Rourke was the stud of all studs. If you were a white dude, that's about as good as it got. You looked at him in nine and a half weeks in Diner. He was so fucking cool. So I'm seeing this dude I would love to be.

He's with this woman that's the most beautiful of all time. And you're like, they really fucked? You're like, yes, I'm so happy for both of them. The two hottest people did it. But how are you going to do that with people? I have no idea. Cameras rolling. I don't know. That's even heightens the craziness.

I know. But you've heard it too. I've heard it too. And it's secretly driven me mad all these years. Okay. Well, I'm glad we cleared it up. Yes. Have you heard that I've said it? When it comes up, I'll tell the alleged one. Well, I've said the alleged ones, just like I said, the alleged angel heart, which you heard. Okay. Well, now you can say. I'll say, you know what guys? I've got proof. That one, unfortunately, is not true.

That guy with the sexiest eyes in the world and the other most beautiful person in the world didn't actually have sex. That didn't happen. I didn't date Spike Lee or Eddie Murphy. Can I just clear that up? Oh, those are rumors too? Those are rumors too. I don't know those ones. That must be so annoying. It is. That every time you do a project and you're doing these incredible roles and incredible work and the rumors that come out are always about...

They got to link you to somebody. Who you're fucking or who you're dating. Right. You can't just be a good actor and you can't just make that shit look real. You had to really be doing it. Well, interesting. Okay.

Let's hear it. Come on. I don't even know what I was basing it on. It looked so real it had to be real. I just want to be clear. Okay, so what were you basing it on? Just rumor? Just that would be awesome. I'd be happy for both of you. Oh. That's it. That's what you wanted to have happen. Yes, I would be so happy for Lisa Bonet and Mickey Rourke if that really happened. But would you have been happy for me and Billy Bob? Yes. Really? He had a wife. He had a wife.

So, you know, all respect. She would have had to have signed off. I know Angie, and she ain't signing off on that shit. Yeah, you're right. She's pretty cool, but yeah, that's a bit. She ain't signing off on that. And I'm a girl's girl. I'll do a lot of things, but I'm not going to sleep with your man. Although in her blood era, she was a little more wild.

Why? Things were wild. Yeah, but they were wearing blood. That didn't mean, okay, go have sex with someone. You're right. In fact, it's the opposite. I have not been objectified. So I really can't probably. But I'm trying to imagine if there was a rumor about me and one of my co-stars that had actual sex in a scene, how I would feel about it.

As a woman, you would feel so violated. Yeah. There was some wrestler dude, I can't even remember his name right now, never met the guy, and he's talking about he had sex with me. And people really believed this. Very fucked up. It is. You feel violated when people dare to just... It's an ownership. Yeah. I don't like that at all, for the record. And I very much apologize for any time I did bring up allegedly this is part of the law. Sorry. I've been married enough times, like you don't need to add on other things to me that have not happened. Yeah.

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I'll tell you why I stopped doing print entirely interviews because I did an interview in Playboy magazine. And you have to know, I was so excited about that. I had read all the Playboy magazine interviews. They were my favorite. Like anytime you really wanted to get to know somebody, it was in there, right? And they asked me and I was so excited. And in real life, that's what I did.

The interviewer said, you've been linked to several famous ladies. What's the magic something? Let's just say that. I can't even remember the particulars. I go on to try to give an answer that doesn't make me seem like a fucking douchebag. It comes out in the question in print says, you've been linked to a lot of famous ladies. List three people that he did not list in his question. I had not even met these three people.

But if you go to this website, who's dated who, it says I dated these people. I've never met the people. So now I'm like, these fucking women think I was asked that and didn't immediately correct him and go, no, no, I've never even met those people. Oh, they hate you. Of course they should. Where's your integrity? Like, you can't add names. That was so shady. I'm never doing that again. I didn't do interviews for 10 years for this reason. I was so tired of...

of the same star-crossed beauty articles, wanting to always make me seem like I'm playing the victim or talking about my bad marriages. Like, I was not. But that's what everybody wanted to talk to me about. Which is why when I came here and I thought, oh, two hours. Because you sit down with people, you talk about so many things, but they extrapolate the story they want to tell about you. And they have the power as the editor-in-chief of their magazine. Or go through the filter of their own person. And what they want to see...

spin about you. The story they already had in their head about you, whether you fit into it or not. And what they think is sellable. Is sellable. And I got hip to that and I just said, no more. This doesn't service me, it services them. I think that's why this is the antidote to that. Yes. It's you. And I'll go anywhere and speak in my own voice. I'm happy to. Me too. So you can hear my inflection, you hear if I'm joking, you hear if it's in jest, you hear if I'm mad. Yes. And then

And then ask me anything. Yeah, like I'm saying it's great that Steven Seagal has a reggae album, but my voice is telling you I don't really think it's great that he had to print on the call. Thanks for clarifying. I hope it was clear. I don't think that's a great move. These podcasts have revolutionized everything and it's given us back our power. I agree. In the same way, social media for all of its isms and ales

It has killed paparazzi. And you and I were unified on that. Oh, I'm going to throw one thing in the mix right now. You and I were almost in a movie together. Really? What movie? Well, you were almost in Wanted. I was. And I was almost in Wanted. Really? Yeah.

I almost got the James McAvoy role. He had fallen out and they started meeting people. And I met Timur, that interesting Russian dude, which I assume you met him too. And Angie had fallen out or maybe you were, whatever order. There could have been a version of Wanted with you and I. That would have been amazing. Yes. I think James McAvoy is much better than I am, but just for the record.

But can you imagine? That would be freaky if we had been in Wanted. That was a very successful film. I know. My friend Mark Platt produced that. I was like, Mark, you should have given me that. Yeah. Just give me that. Give me that. Give me stuff. Yes, baby.

- Yes, Ben. - We love Ben. - I do too. Oh my God, I grew up with them. I invested in Wicked. So that's how far back I go with this. - Wow. - No way. - Good for you. - Yes, congratulations. - One of the smartest things I ever freaking did. - Well, you already know it. You fucking won the Academy Award for it, but boy, did I love Monster's Ball. You're so impossibly great in it. I'm gonna bring up Catwomen, women, woman, only for a single reason, which is I think this is the most gangster move ever.

You cat women. Why can't I say women? That's right, because there are many of us. That's right. You cat women. It's a Freudian slip. You do cat woman. You win a Razzie and you go accept it and you bring with you in your hand your Oscar. Oh, hell yeah. I did not know this. And you hold the Razzie in one hand and the Oscar in the other. And I'm like, that's cooler than you having fucked Billy Bob Thornton as legend. I was like, oh my God, that is fucking...

So cool. That's life, right? Do you have to work your way up to that decision or you immediately know, fuck it, I'm going to go do this? Oh, I immediately knew that. It's so cool. I also had a fundamental knowing that when I won that Oscar, it didn't mean I was the best. It meant I won. Because what is the best performance? Again, it's subjective. So it just meant I won. And I knew when they tried to give me the Razzie, it didn't mean I was the worst. It just meant I won that fucking thing.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very healthy. I know that. I thought if you can go and accept an accolade, then you must be of the same character and substance to go accept something when they're telling you, okay, it sucked balls. You must be able to be the same person always. It's just so confident and attractive. It is. It's so cool. It's so classy. It was so fun to get up there and make jokes. And I wrote my whole speech and I was like, ready?

to write. What speech was better? The Oscar speech or the Razzie speech? I hope you're laughing like, fuck, I kind of. I put way more energy in my Razzie speech. The Oscar speech, I didn't write a speech. I didn't think I was going to win. I thought Sissy Spacek was going to win because back in those days, whoever won the Golden Globe pretty much always won the Oscar and she won the Golden Globe. So I pretty much knew after that, okay, this was a fun ride. I got nominated. Sorry, Dee Dee. I didn't do it for you. But now I'm sisters with you in this. Right. Either way, there would have been a connection. Yeah. Were you the first black

Actor to win a Razzie? They don't write that. Probably. What have you got? I was the first one to bring their Oscar, that's for sure. Yeah. Somewhere there was a first in that. And then just another movie that I thought was so unbelievably great, and you were so great in it, was Things We Lost in the Fire. Such a fucking great movie. Oh, God. Duchovny. I loved working with him on that. How about Benicio? And Benicio. The Bull. I'm obsessed with him. Why won't he work more for us? I don't know.

I don't know. I tried to get him in the movie I directed, Bruised. He said no. I just tried to get him in this movie called The Process. He said no. I can't get him in anything. Yeah, he's such an enigma. I love him so much. I'm going to say something and I wonder because you got to stare at him for quite a long time and this is a very counterintuitive comparison. You know who I think he looks like? Brad Pitt.

Next time you're looking at them, look for it. I've pointed that out to people and they're like, by God, it does kind of look like Brad Pitt. I kind of see it. It's weirdly eerily. It's more of an essence coming out of the eyes. The eyes, the forehead. There's something very Brad Pitt, which is very fascinating. Did you make him say, give him the fucking keys, cocksucker, that whole thing? From Usual Suspects.

That's why you won't do a movie with him. Come on, say it. I flip him. I flip him for real. But I did not sleep with him. If that's ever been a rumor, let's clear that up too. I've never heard that rumor. Okay, good. But I would love to sleep with him if I were a woman. Did you enjoy directing? I did. It's hard to go back to just being the dancing bear. It's so boring.

I've directed a few things too. And when I've gone back to just act, I'm like, I stand on this mark. And you have to really try hard to stay in your lane. Be quiet. You're the actor. Do what they're telling you and just do it. I don't have a hard time not injecting my vision to people. What I have a hard time is when I watch that something's actually not going to work out. Like it's a waste of time. That's hard. Yeah, because you can't say anything. Yeah, I'm like, you're on the wrong side of the line. And it's just a little bit hard to go like, this is unusable. Or we're improvving in this huge wide, we'll never possibly, you know. It's hard to be quiet.

Yeah, you got to shut the fuck up and just... Do what you're told. That's right. Okay. We're to your now two current movies. And I want to talk about them at the same... No, we love this fun stuff. Matt Damon, maybe you know this or don't, he passed on Avatar and he was offered 10% of the something outrageous. Something ridiculous. Several hundred million dollar decision. I'm regretting that.

I understand. He has a great attitude about it. But these things are kind of fun. And I just want to point out that Hallie was cast in Geely. That's not true. That's not true? Hell no. I do have one of these moments, but it's not that. Oh, I read that you were cast in Geely and then had a scheduling thing and then couldn't do it. No, let me tell you what happened. Okay. Here's the tea. So I'm up for the part. So is Jennifer.

J-Lo. Jenny from the block. Jenny from the block. Yeah. We both go meet Marty Brest, I think was the director, and Ben. So we both have a meeting around it and I think I really want it. I want to work with Marty Brest. I want to work with Ben. I go, but Ben decides...

that he wants Jen. So I don't get the job. Was it Cass? I don't get it. She gets it. Okay, okay. It's not that you turned it down. No, she beat me out for the job. And boy, I'm glad she did. I'm glad she did.

I might not be sitting here right now. Once in a while, it goes your way. It was a weird analogy. It was the opposite of what you have of that story. Yes, but in the same Boston world. But now I realize why she got the job. Yeah, exactly. You realize what was at play there. He was in love. He was feeling that canon. He was feeling that stuff. The familiarity. He was feeling that stuff. Yeah, that good stuff. What a ride they have been.

So I'm glad I wasn't in Geely. But I do have a thing. I don't say I regret because there's no regrets, but I passed on, you know, Speed with Keanu Reeves. Oh, I know this. You know that? I know this. And I know exactly why. But it's a great reason. The version of the script you read, the bus never left the parking lot. Right. So who went to that? Of course. A bus going around and around in like this supermarket parking lot. I was like...

This is going to be a bust. And it was still called Speed. It was called Speed, but it was speeding around the parking lot. No, no, no, no. So I was like, no, I'm not going to do that. And then when I saw it, I was like...

What a movie. It went on the freeway. It got out of the parking lot. But let's also be honest. Even when the bus got out of the parking lot, I remember watching the trailer and going like, for real? This is the premise of the movie? Now, the execution was awesome. But conceptually, it's an enormous swing. But it's all in the execution. Most of these things. Wasn't there a movie with Colin Farrell who was only in a phone booth? Yeah, phone booth. Who would have thought that?

That would have been all in the execution. Or lock. Riveting. Yes. How? Or the room. Just room, right? Yeah, didn't leave the room. Yeah, because the room is Tommy Wiseau. Right, this was room. Oh, yeah. Not the room. It's not the example we would maybe give for execution. Although also brilliant in its own way. Okay, I want to talk about

Both of your movies, one that's already out currently and one that's about to come out. At the same time a little bit, The Union, which I watched last night, and Never Let Go, which I watched last night. Oh, you did? Oh, God. Imagine watching both those movies back to back. I can't. Above everything else.

The chasm between who you're playing and the breadth of the ability that's on display at the same time is pretty bonkers. I mean, you could not be playing two more different people. The range is a real feather in your cap with both these things being out around the same time. It's hugely impressive. Oh, gosh, thank you. You're a bad motherfucker. You're slick in the union. You're tough. You're sexy. You're fast talking. You're in charge. You're in charge.

And then I know we're not supposed to say crazy anymore, but then you're batshit crazy. We can say crazy. I think anybody could understand being driven mad. I'd say she was driven mad. Okay, so people will probably already be familiar with The Union. I think it's number one on Netflix. I think it's hugely successful. I did see on Instagram, speaking of, that Wahlberg sent you a truck. He did. Yeah.

So never let go. You are in the woods with your two boys. And we learn, and I got to be tactful and careful and surgical about what we give away in explaining this movie. But we learn pretty quickly there's been an apocalypse. It's just you three. And the house you're in, which is this little cabin in the woods, is safety. And if you leave this house...

You are inviting in the spirit. And if the spirit gets you, it'll make you kill the people you love. And when you leave the house, because you've got to leave the house, you've got to go forage and you've got to hunt, you have to be moored or tethered to the house with this rope. So you guys are moving about this world tethered to this house. The allegories are really simmering, right? Yeah.

When you read it, what did it scream to you? To me, it's generational trauma. Yeah. First of all, when you see the movie, there's so many Easter eggs in the movie. This woman has a snake on her back. She's got spiders up her arm and she has cigarette burns on her back. That lets us know there was some life that this woman had before they got sequestered into this house. And the evil that appears to her is her anger.

Ex-husband, that's the father of these two boys, her mother, who's...

horrific, and her father. So you draw from that, these three people had some impact on her before she got sequestered here. And they're torturing her. They're driving her mad for a reason. And it's sort of a metaphor for what happened in the real world, as she calls it. And now that's carried into this so-called world of safety. It is about how we get locked up in our fear and we can't

always release it. So the question in playing the character was, is Mama suffering from mental illness? Is she schizophrenic? Is she seeing visions of this evil because nobody sees it but her? Yeah. Or is it really real and it's just fucking with her because what it wants is really her, not the boys? As an audience, it makes you think,

is it real or is it not real? And as an actor, I had to play, sometimes I want you to think that it's real and sometimes I want you to question if it's real and if it's just mama having mental illness. And is she protecting these boys or is she torturing? Is she passing on her fears that were instilled in her? The story she's trapped in. And we do that. Yes. And we do do that. And even if

It's mental illness. You know, mental illness is passed down. That's what interested me about the movie. It's so many metaphors for life. And I've never seen a story like this. This black family tied with ropes to the house. There's also religious undertones to it, right? The house is blessed. They say a prayer to the house. There's constant atonement. You're putting the boys in this little miniature cellar and making them lay in here and basically suffer. Or clean their souls. Let the house know that we love you. And it's a sacrament. Yeah, it's very religious in that way.

Where were you? In Vancouver, in the middle of the woods. And these two boys, did you just love them to pieces? Oh, my God. I love working with little people. Me too. You learn so much. And when we were searching for these boys, I knew that it was important that they be rock stars. I mean, you've seen the movie, so so much of it hinges on...

if they can pull this off because they have a lot of heavy lifting to do at one point. I knew that we had to find the right boys. It was key and it took a very long time, but when we found them, I knew it was all gonna be okay. It's just me and them. - I had a little boy on a show for six years

And he was little. I think he was maybe four when I started working with him. Parenthood, Tyree, who played Jabbar. And what I loved about it was he had no acting experience. I think it was one of these classic stories where his older siblings wanted to act, and he was around castings. So he ended up in this without really any acting aspirations. He was a little four-year-old boy. And he couldn't act, but he could play. He could play more than an adult actor could play. Since I love improv, I just am there to play.

So what I really loved about the experience is like, I could play with him and I could get out of him everything we would need

and he didn't necessarily even know it was happening, but we were just in this little bubble of playing and it felt nurturing. I feel like with kids, you know, they're so free. They're so uninhibited. They're very honest because they don't know how to be anything but really. Life has not told them yet that they need to start curbing the reality of things to manage everybody's feelings. So they just shoot you straight and they're very honest that way. And I loved that. They're just themselves.

especially when you get good kids. When you get kids that aren't like stage kids that have been traipsed around. Destroyed. Yeah. When they're still kind of raw and natural, it's nothing better. And it reminded me all the time to give over to our sense of play and our vulnerability, search for the honesty in every moment because that's what these boys did. And it was important to cast boys who, them being themselves, was right for the part. I'm not

saying they didn't act because they did. They were just being naturally very different. So that part just showed up on screen, right? And so they got to kind of just be. So I've never had the experience where I'm doing something scary though.

per se. We're in the middle of the woods for real. Bears were like rolling up on our set. We got rats running through our house. We have real people dressed up like evil zombies lurking all around. Yeah, their characters can't see them, but they can. They can see them. Yes. Yeah. How did they do with that? Did they have kind of a sense of humor about it or did it scare the fuck out of them? Sometimes it scared them. I went into like my mother protection mode and sometimes I would be like, hey,

Hey, enough. You got it, Aja. Yeah. I would get very fiercely protective of them sometimes. You know, sometimes we can overkill it and you're not really realizing real people are here. The fool you. You can forget that they're little people. You can. Until that SAG rep comes and says, 10 hours is up. That's another hidden nice thing about working with kids is your hours are way better. No, not mine. Because there were always things for mama to do without the boys. Okay. So you still got fucked. Yeah.

I was still there. But that's okay. Well, you're great in it. I'm terrified for you. I'm worried about you. I'm terrified of what has happened to you that has landed you in this state. How do you feel about animals, though? There's that one scene. How did you feel about that? Without telling anybody what that is. We don't have to tell people what it is, but also you're on the verge of breaking one of the cardinal rules in filmmaking. I know. What's interesting is I'm okay with it, but I'm...

in love with people that are very different. So I've watched the experience. In fact, I was thinking while I was watching, I was like, ooh, this is going to be really intense for some people. Where do you land on the spectrum? I land on the spectrum of always servicing the truth of the character. And this family being in that situation, in that condition, that's absolutely what this mother would be facing. Yes. I can flip a switch, which is when shit needs to get done,

because it has to get done. I can kind of compartmentalize that I was an addict. I'm just like, work backwards from what the truth is. We got to eat. Everything else is fucking irrelevant. I come from that school of thought. People often have a harder time watching cruelty to animals than people.

Oh, almost always. We're so desensitized to humans. We are desensitized. We don't give a fuck. They can kill like three, 400 people in a movie and we're like, oh yeah, whatever. But if they hold a cat over a bridge or something, people start a campaign. Yeah, and I get it because humans do some heinous things and you don't really see animals like purposely causing harm. There's an implicit innocence to an animal, right? They've not done anything that would warrant it except for Cujo. Right. Like,

Like, we got to put Cujo down at some point. He's got rabies. He's going to kill people. We got to get him. Are you watching Chimp Crazy? Mm-mm. What is Chimp Crazy? It's on Max. It's by the same filmmaker that made Tiger King. And it's about the interesting people who come to own chimpanzees, which...

are the most dangerous thing you could own probably worse than a tiger really bubbles would have done some damage let's just say many of the chimp owners have had their noses replaced so that's in keeping with bubbles yeah we don't know we've assumed it was vanity driven but no a male chimp is 200 pounds five times the strength of a human has enormous incisors

And it's supposed to be in the jungle fighting other males and having sex 50 times a day. 50 times a day. Sex 50 times a day. Yes, and they're only awake 12 hours. That's 10 times an hour. Oh my God. That's five times an hour. I wish you were too. Some people think they were born in the wrong body. He was born in the wrong species. Oh,

Oh, my God. Really? Yeah, it's a recipe for disaster. But one of the chimps had to get put down. Really? Well, it was in the process of murdering someone. The police arrive and attack somebody. Yeah.

So when they're culpable, we can handle it. But you ask yourself, though, this question. Why is he living in a cage in someone's house? It's like the orcas at SeaWorld, you know, blackfish. Wouldn't you go bonkers, too, if you've been plucked out of the wild, out of the ocean, and now you're in a big pool? Yes. Like, at what point is it unfair to that animal that you've done that in the first place? Right.

But again, then we go to, yet we kind of accept prisons. We don't think too much about it. That's that. Let's throw these people in a cage. I can't say I 100% agree with that either. Nobody rehabilitates that way. No one's getting better from that experience. And the ones that do, and there are ones that get better. God bless you, man. We just had Coleman Domingo in. Oh, wow.

How do I love him? And he did this movie Sing Sing. And yeah, they put together this acting program at Sing Sing and made themselves better. Impossible to be vulnerable in a place like that. It deserves 20 Academy Awards. That's something. And 20 Razzies. No, no Razzies. Well, we like Razzies now. Well, now we kind of like them. Now they're the same. You've reframed Razzies for us. Yeah, now we like them.

I don't even know if they exist anymore, Razzies. They probably don't. It was stupid in the first place. Yeah, it was mean. You know what it is? It's like, first of all, I was like, that's mean. I'm sure I've been nominated. I just don't know. Or certainly a movie I've been in has been. But then I go like, it's mostly I think nerds. They're jealous of the hot people. And sure, it's pretty comforting when the hot people eat shit. I get it. They deserve that, I guess, too. Yeah.

Well, that's why I went. I'm like, no, you don't get to rain on my parade. I'm sorry, people. You don't get to. I bet they were panicked when you showed up in a weird way. I think they loved that they got me there, but they didn't really get me there. I went there. Yeah, you're very in control. I like that. You take back a lot of control. It's admirable. Well, we've run out of time. You know, you didn't want to be here for two hours and it's been two hours. How long have I been here? Two hours and five minutes. Oh, my gosh. And what does it feel like? Be honest. Two hours and five minutes. Oh, no.

That's not the answer I was hoping for. I let myself believe you were going to say like 58. It is not nearly two hours. Okay, good. That's the goal. Thank you for having me. Because I would have loved to have talked about menopause with you. Monica read all fours. That's my passion. If I could never act another day and still take care of my family and my baby daddies, I would just do that. It is the thing that wakes me up in the morning and keeps me up at night.

Spreading the word. Not spreading the word, but really doing something about it. Going to Washington, advocating, changing laws, getting money. You have a law. It's a bill that I'm in Washington right now. I'm in Congress. I've got most of the female senators on my side, some of the House, and we're trying to get this bill passed.

And what will the bill do? It will have $275 million that go all to menopause research. The NIH has money, but they never give menopause the money in the NIH. So we need a standalone bill with new appropriations. Because you're worthless. You've passed your usefulness to us. When we're done with our baby-making years, it's like, forget us. And did you know that we're the only species known to us that when you're out of your childbearing years...

you live 40 more years. Most species die when the baby-making years are over. So jump to

Our bodies are really trying to die around 40. And so we have to figure out a way, how do we live the next 40 years and not let our bodies kill ourselves? Because nature says we should be dead. Right. You are supposed to die around that. Yeah. Weirdly, yesterday we interviewed this woman who wrote a book called Eve, and it's all about evolution being driven by the female sex. And she was talking just about that exact same thing. That's so cool that you're doing that. No one talks about it. I know.

And we have to. It's the most natural thing that can happen to us. You know, it's no different than puberty. And when you guys had a problem, you guys got that little blue pill. Set you right. I don't know what you're talking about. I know you don't. But I've heard some lesser. You might need that blue pill at some point. Oh, and I'll eat a hundred of them. Yeah.

Whatever the prescription is, I'll double it. Well, Hallie, this has been a real... We were at an event. Did you see me? I saw you. We had a little conference in Ojai recently. We were both there. I didn't talk to you, but I talked to Van a couple different times. At?

iconic so you didn't see me that's the answer I gave Van a 38 second hug I think at one point he did not tell me that was so fun what the fuck he doesn't want you to he thinks I'm low rent he's like I gotta keep this on the DL she knows I'm friends with this dirt bag I can't share this information no this could be detrimental she might not make it to the four year mark if she finds this out

This was fun. Yeah, this was really fun. I'm really glad you, I know you didn't want to do it and you did it and it was fun. No, I did want to do it. Okay. I was just afraid of two hours. I get it. It's too much. It's too much. At least one hour too much. Thank you. Bye. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare. We are supported by Welch's Zero Sugar. I get the warmest, coziest feeling with just saying Welch's. Yeah.

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But it is. This delicious beverage has zero grams of sugar. This was made for me. It might not immediately make sense how a zero sugar drink could taste so good. You just have to sip it to get it. I got to say, it's delicious. And you know, I'm not a big sugar consumer. So this is the ideal product for me. It worked out perfectly. Welch's Zero Sugar is refreshing and a great addition to your breakfast routine. Start your day with something sweet without the sugar.

Try new Welch's Zero Sugar today. Available in stores now. Find it in the refrigerated aisle. I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong.

I want to play something on the TV today. Oh, okay. I want to be high tech today. Oh, is there anything we can play? Yes. Oh my God. We can, but I don't know if we, I mean, I don't know if we're allowed. Can we let the listener know how close my truck is? You ready? Sure.

Could you hear that? Yeah. Okay. That's a pop-out. This is your house. I know. But I don't know if you would think that where we're sitting is so close to a vehicle. Interesting. Okay. I understand. Like, whatever I know is like, I want people to know how close we are to my garbage disposal. And you heard it go on. Wow, they're in the kitchen. That makes more sense to me than... The truck? Yeah. Because it's far enough away that...

It was a great thing you did. Well, listen. I'm proud of you. I'm not suggesting we're on par with Charlie Rose, but imagine during an episode of Charlie Rose, he just went, hold on, I gotta make sure my truck's parked, locked.

And you were like, well, this is so weird. That dark void they're in is that close to his car? Sure. I get it. That would excite me. I feel safest when I have a lay of the land. I get it. Geography. I get that. Speaking of lay of the land. Mm-hmm.

I was just in my house for a little meeting. Now, am I right that I've seen scaffolding go up finally? You know, I've been very critical about the workflow. I know, which is unnecessary. I'm not seeing anybody there. I'm not seeing anything happening. Okay. And I'm getting very protective of you. I appreciate the protection. You should go over there. A lot happens.

A lot is happening and a lot has happened. Okay. What's the most recent? Feel free to walk over or I'll walk you over. But when I walked in and there was a new person for me to meet, like a lighting, an electrician. Sure. And when I walk up and he comes up and, you know, we're meeting and then

Luis, my project manager, was like, this is Monica. She's the homeowner. It felt so weird. It became real when he said the homeowner. Yeah, and I felt so fraudulent. Oh, you did? Yeah. Like a child? Yeah, I was like, I should be a homeowner.

What is going on? It's hard to talk about this without sounding like bratty or like my diamond shoes are too tight or whatever that thing is. Sure, champagne problems, limousine liberals. White person problems. Do you know limousine liberals? No. Oh, that's one. Oh, it is? I've never heard that. An older esteemed actor I once worked with who is not compassionate to liberals. He'd be like, oh yeah, these limousine liberals. You know, yeah.

Well, and I'm guessing that person has a limousine based on their accent. I think he's in plain hypocrisy. Like, give it all to everybody, share, but I'll be in a limousine. I don't know. I'm not even going to attempt to decode his. I see. Okay. But it's a saying. So it's sort of, it's weird to talk about, but I was walking away and I'm so excited. Like, it's so beautiful. It's going to be so nice. But I was walking away and I was like,

What? Why didn't I just, why didn't I just like buy a house? Buy a completed house. Yeah. Like I'm doing so much. It's so nice. You would have. I would have. Oh yeah. But there's no neighborhood, there's no houses ever for sale in this neighborhood. Yes, that's true. And the one that happened to come up that was in your price range, which is also rare for this neighborhood. Yes. Yeah, you're right. You weren't going to, you know. Yeah. You would have to be in another neighborhood.

Right. And you wanted to be in this neighborhood. Yeah. And me too. I agree. Yeah. This is a cool neighborhood. And I guess over the span of when I bought it to now, a lot of things have changed for me financially. So it has grown and grown into like a scope that feels. But you're having a hard time integrating. Into my brain. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I am. Yeah.

And with any luck, it'll just continue to scramble your brain because. Yeah, I hope so. I had it all over again. I'm having it all over again with Nashville. I'm really having a hard time believing I would have a house on a lake.

where I can go boating. Kind of my dream. You know, growing up where I grew up in Oxford Acres, there was Duck Lake and a lot of the kids lived on the lake and their parents had boats. Yeah. And you had to kind of be friends with people to get out on a boat, maybe go water skiing. So it's just so, it's what the other folks had. Sure. Yeah. So for me, that's still like a really, there's these little things that

I've constructed in my head that we're out of reach or for other people. And then there's really only a few of them. But yeah, being having a house on a lake to me is. Yeah, that's cool. I don't think I have that.

I'm trying to think if I have like, well, obviously I have it day to day all the time. I have it with clothes. I have it like that's a lot of that. But in Duluth, what was the coveted thing? People did have like boats on Lake Harwell or Lake Lanier or whatever. Sure, sure, sure. But you know, I don't care about that. You're not a water baby, even though you're a mermaid. Yeah, it's counterintuitive. Yeah. What is the thing you're very most excited about?

For your house. Is it roaming around aimlessly? No. Because you can't do much roaming in your apartment. Well, yeah, that's true. You walk about 12 feet in any direction and that's the end of the line. Yeah, but I don't mind that. Yeah, I think you're even going to come to prefer it at some point. That's not helpful. I mean, I'm, okay, I'm most excited about having outdoor space.

Yeah, because you love doing your homework outside. I'm not a water baby, but I am a sun baby. Yeah. And I love to be outside. And I have no access to the outdoors in my apartment. So I am so excited about that.

I'm also really excited to be able to have like cook in a nice kitchen with space where I can like really, really do it and not feel like I have to clean this dish before I can because there's no dishwasher. You know, I'm looking forward to a dishwasher. Do you think you're going to miss your apartment? Yeah, I do. A lot, actually. And I'm feeling nervous. And I thought that about our old house. Wow.

Was certain of it. Yeah. I don't want to leave this house. I love this house. I've been here for 16 years. This is my soul, this house. Yeah. I like that it's. You liked that it was sort of modest. I loved that it was modest. Yeah. And my new house isn't modest. At all. No. In fact, it's kind of impressive. And then you got another one right after that. Yeah. So it does seem like when you were like, oh.

It's like once I dabbled in it, I went crazy. Yeah, you went all out. So I'm a little nervous. Yeah, like tattoos. You get one and you wake up and you're 15. You're like, what happened? Exactly. Just a few months ago, I wanted one. There's no place. There's no other place that I...

I want a house. Well, and what was always really great financial advice I received from many, many people was don't buy a second house. Right. Especially in the era of Airbnb and VRBO and BBBT and CCW. AT&T. AT&T, WXRF, Cincinnati. Right.

It's pointless. Go rent a beautiful house. Yeah. Even if you spend a lot, it won't ever compare to 12 months of your mortgage and the upkeep and the shit that goes wrong. So I was in. That was, I believed in that. Yeah. I was a big renter of places for holidays.

But I'm now fantasizing about my retirement life. Yeah. Like the last chapter of my life and hopefully where I do a lot of writing and I fart around in nature. And so it has taken on that. I can't do I can't rent that. Should we talk about the elephant in the room?

What? Money? No, that it makes me sad when you think about, when you talk about your retirement there. Yes. Not your retirement in general, but your retirement there. Like you seem to have, I feel that you seem to have no sadness about not being around me ever again. Right. Well, and we've talked about this and I have said,

I'm not excited about leaving all my friends in my friendship network. That's not what excites me about it. What excites me about it is the lake and nature and writing and...

Some level of quietness after 27 years in a very loud city. I'm not excited to get away from everybody. But in my mind, people visit a lot. I come back to L.A. a lot. It's not like sign our suck ass, catch up with you at my funeral. It's also nine years away at the earliest. Nine years. Right. A lot can happen in nine years. A lot can happen, but I will never be happy. I will never be like...

Yeah, like, great. Go. I don't care. I will miss you. And I wouldn't be excited if you were moving back to Atlanta. I would hope not. Not at all. Yeah. I would go, that's stupid. I don't know why you're moving back to Atlanta. If it was me. Right. But if you had some thing you've been chasing since you were a little kid about living on a lake and you had that in your mind of what that was going to be in Atlanta. Mm hmm.

I would like to think I wouldn't take it personal. Like I wouldn't let it be a personal thing that you've chosen something over all of us. It's not personal. Like you're doing something to me or something to, to, to the friend group or whatever. Right. But you,

You it is personal, like you're going from being 45 steps away to far away, like to seeing you every day, to seeing you maybe twice a year. I also well, I don't think that's the case. I also have a friend that did what I'm doing and I know what our relationship was, which is Tom Hanson. Yeah. Tom Hanson lives in Jackson Hole a good chunk of the year. Yeah. And he's in L.A. Yeah. Yeah.

And I'll certainly be in L.A. That's true. I'm sure my kids are going to want to live here. They're not going to want to live a lake in the middle of nowhere. Right. In Nashville in their young adulthood. Yeah. Who knows? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess that's true. My relationship— You might move to New York in nine years. I don't think so. You're not going to. Okay. Because—

Because I do – and I guess maybe this is a deeper piece of this. I feel like life is about who you're around. It's not about the fancy house or the – or New York City, which is my obvious preferred location in this life. But I don't want to be there because I – I mean, I do have friends there, but that's not –

That's not where my safe group is and my chosen family is, you know? Right. So I will always pick being in somewhat of vicinity to those people over... I'd say to a limit, right? Well, yeah. If everyone collectively agreed we're all moving to the middle of the high desert, you wouldn't be like, yeah, I'm going to go to the high desert because it's who I'm with. I don't know.

I don't know. You don't know? I really don't. Like, it's so...

That, to me, is what makes life what it is. All the girls joke all the time about us all just moving to a commune. That sounds fun. Yes, but at a nice location. The ones on Instagram we send each other don't seem that nice. I'm talking high desert. The wind blows all the time at 50 miles an hour. You know, Lucerne Valley, it's dry as hell. Dust blowing around. It's freezing in the winter and boiling hot in summer. Sure, sure.

Okay. You're like, I'm not going to live there. Okay. I'll give you that. I don't think that would be on the table for the people that I've chosen in my life. I'm just picking an extreme example to suggest that you would, location would be really relevant at some point. At some point. If you hated it. I mean, you've lived here for, I don't think you hate it here. No, no, no, no. Yeah. I don't hate LA. I, you already know, I think all this, which is,

I'm a romantic who's telling a story of my life and I have another chapter in my life. I have like another point of view to take on, maybe hopefully two. We've just had so many guests in a row that have talked about the power of community. And so what's great is when I left Michigan, I got a whole new point of view out here, but I didn't lose my Michigan point of view. I still have a very kind of

fundamental Michigan point of view, I still have access to it. Like I own that point of view. Right. It didn't go away. I didn't have to get rid of it to make room for this LA one. And I, yeah, I want a couple more.

Yeah. Yeah, that's the kind of life I want. I want to have, I want to try as much of it as I can before I die. Yeah, I know. We didn't talk about, what were we supposed to talk about on the last fact check that we forgot to? Chimp crazy. Chimp crazy. Yes. Okay, so we have delayed all of our chimp crazy chatter. Pretty much. Pretty much.

I know. Where do we start? Well, this would be full of spoilers. I mean, I think most people who will watch it probably have. I also feel like so much of it's predictable. You watch a show about people owning male chimpanzees, you know people are going to get fucking gnarled up. Well, a lot of people ask who haven't seen it, do the chimps get hurt? Like that people don't want to watch it for that reason. And

It's mixed, right? Like they aren't treated well. That's sort of the whole premise. They're not treated intentionally cruelly. Yeah. But they are treated cruelly. Yeah. It's not an uplifting show. You feel I at least felt bad for all the humans involved and the chimps involved. Yeah.

Yeah, it's hard to watch. The only people I didn't feel bad for were the good guys, which is interesting. Why? Like, I understand. I'm triggered by self-righteousness. It's a big trigger for me. I know it is. But sometimes I think that can kind of get in the way of a good belief. Like these people, and I agree, they're annoying. There are some people in there in this show who work for PETA who I found annoying.

But they were doing the right thing. They did the right thing. They just didn't need to be so fucking high on themselves for doing it impunitive and mean towards the woman. They didn't need all that stuff to rescue the chimp. They could have still filed all the court documents and had the trial. Yeah. And like, but also she's being horrible to them and you don't feel that way about her.

Which is fun. Because she's totally disenfranchised. She's not educated. These are lawyers. They're super well-funded. Yeah. The amount of money they spend to get this animal, and then they sue her to get the money back, which just felt punitive. And I don't know. But also they knew— I would want them to have the same love for humans as they have for animals. And I don't think they do. That's my whole life. Like, I think it's crazy. But I do— You know, she was—

lying and lying and lying and lying and lying. And I do think at some point you're like, I don't give a fuck about this person. You get sort of steadfast on your mission. Yeah. But like qualities, there's a smugness. There's a big time smugness. I can't stand smugness. There was a self-righteousness. There was a punitiveness. Yeah.

And I think everything she was doing was wrong. Right. Me too. I also think she's horrendously lonely. I think her son feels betrayed by her. I think the whole situation. Oh, it's so sad. She reaped what she sowed. There's no winners in this. So I would think of it more like, yeah, I have to intervene with my kids all the time. I have to protect them from themselves or I have to help point out. But I don't need to do it with superiority or anything.

I can do it with compassion and understanding. Yeah. And still do the thing that needs doing. Well, your children are an, I mean, that's so extreme. Of course, you're going to have compassion. I'm using an example of a kind of disenfranchised, powerless, not on my level intellectually. I would have an approach for somebody like that.

Right. That I could have a kindness and a patience for that and still do the right. Look, it's the exact same thing as we're always talking about with prisoners. Like, yes, dangerous people need to be removed from society so that they don't hurt other people. Yes. But you don't need to hate the people that do that. And you don't need to punish them while they've been removed. And you don't, you know. Yeah. I mean, I agree with all that. I felt

for her. Like, it was so sad and she was clearly so sad. And she got herself mauled by the end, which is so, I mean, you have to just, you have to be honest with yourself about who you're dealing with. You're dealing with somebody who

who has full awareness of all these attacks, and then chose to get into a cage with a male chimp that she didn't even know. It's very, if anyone listened to the Munchausen's episode, it's very, very similar to that. There's something very adjacent about it. Yes, where it's all about...

receiving love that won't leave you. Like creating an environment where you, you were, somebody needs you so bad. Something needs you so badly and they can't leave you. Yep. And kids leave you and obviously adults leave you exhibit a you're moving. Yeah. And me, oh my God. Tell me. Maybe I should get a job.

Maybe you have the space now. And you have a basement if they come for you, if PETA comes for you. That might solve all my abandonment issues. Now, okay, so I was a little harsh on them, but I have to also own the fact that like,

They were ultimately totally right. There is a moment in the doc where I'm like, I don't know. I don't know if Tonka should go with other chimps if he's going to get torn to shreds. And does he really have heart disease? It seemed like he really had heart disease. But he didn't. He didn't. But I was bought into that. Yeah. I don't know if she was bought into it or not. She was probably lying to herself. Who is so convoluted. But yeah, but then he's so happy.

Tonka. At the very end, in the environment he's supposed to be in, he's like so happy and looks...

And that was really sad. It's like so much of this chimp's life. Was sitting in that fucking cage. Yes. Oh, it's terrible. And when you think about like 94%, or isn't it? Or 99? It's even higher than what she said, yeah. Shared DNA to humans. It's like a human living in a cage. Like a prisoner. Exactly. All bad. All just really bad. How about when he was like, there were all these moments where...

Also, I bet you could get misled by, well, that's what happens. You get misled by them. They show all this intelligence and all these weird areas. Yeah. And you start to, this is what I'm guilty of with Lincoln. It's like, she's so mature. She's so mature. And then she's 11. Right. And I get a little taken aback by it. Sure. And then I have to go like, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's 11. Yeah. And similarly, like she hands Tonka. Tonka has gotten messy with his duty. Yeah.

And he got duty all over the plexiglass enclosure. Yeah. And she's like, Tonka, you'll clean this up if you want your Coca-Colas or whatever fucking terrible food she's giving him. And she throws him the towel and he wipes it up and he just makes it way worse. But he understands he made it.

She's like, that's not very good. And then he gets back in there. And it's like, that stuff is so weird. You're watching this thing. He's as compliant as my nine-year-old is. Right. And he's doing about as good a job as Delta does cleaning up a window. Well, no. No.

No, he's better than that. He's like a three-year-old. It would be like a three-year-old, I think, more than a... I want to go five. Really? Yeah. He makes, well, not he, but Travis would make himself dinner, open the fridge, get his item, go to the microwave, put it in the microwave, go turn on his favorite TV show. I mean, a three-year-old can't do that. Yeah, I guess you're right. Drink wine. Three-year-olds can't drink wine. Yeah.

Well, you can have Xanax. Women find out they were given the thing Xanax. I mean, Jesus Christ. It was bad. What a mess. But also in this show, so you're mainly, we're mainly seeing this one woman. We're following this one woman, but also. What's her name? Isn't that crazy? Oh my God. Do they not say it? I know the names of all the champs.

No, they definitely said it. Tanya Haddix? Oh, Tanya. Tanya, thank you. Okay, but then in throughout this... Tanya Harding? Tanya Haddix. Oh my God, so close. I mean, I knew it wasn't Tanya Harding. And it's close to Tiffany Haddish. Oh, we love Tiffany Haddish. We love her, friend and pod. I'm not a sponsor. So we...

Throughout the series, you also meet other people who have chimps and their relationship and there's...

One that people probably remember because it was a big story. And I remember the story. This is Travis in Connecticut. Yes. The woman had a chimp for many, many years. Yeah. He was a sweetie pie. Whole town loved him. Whole town loved him. Police were all in photographs with him. Yes. And then he was like not wanting to. He was being ornery. And he wanted to get out of the car.

And they were like, this isn't time to get out of the car. And he unlocked the door and he got out at an intersection. Oh, yeah, that. That was the first red flag. Yes, there was some red flags starting to happen. And that was like a four-hour thing with the police and the news were there. And they just had to like, and he'd roll around on the street. Again, it wasn't outwardly violent, but he was out of control. And they somehow, obviously, they knew. This is what's so tricky, too. It's like they know and they don't know. So they knew they couldn't pick him up and put him in the car.

Right. That they would have gotten fucked up. Clearly. Because why did they sit there for three hours until he got himself back in the car? I know. I'm kind of surprised they didn't just dart him. But at that point, he's like the mascot and he's rolling around and being funny. And it's inconvenient. But like, here we go. We got a playful chimp in the road. They dart like...

like Robert Sapolsky darts ships. Like you're allowed to do that. Sure, sure, sure. I don't know if the local New Haven police were equipped with trank darts. They should have called Robert Sapolsky. So he, anyway, he's starting to act a little odd.

He's getting old. Yeah. He's getting, yeah, adolescent. Ornery and grumpy. And then... Dad got rid of his in-town privileges. That's like step one. Right. And then he had to stay in the house. He couldn't go anywhere. And he was getting more insolent. And then his dad died. Oh.

That's really what set him off. He was completely inconsolable. He loved his dad so much. They drank wine together every night, probably popped Xannies. He probably like had withdrawal. Can you imagine a chimp on coke? Oh my God. Oh my God. That's horrifying. So yeah, he was completely distraught. He doesn't know what to do with these big feelings. He's now contained in the house. He's not allowed...

And he has a visitor. So red flag number two is after his dad dies, her daughter comes by with her son or somehow. Something, yeah. There's like a late teens or early 20s boy in the mix. Yeah. And Travis wants to play with him. Yeah. And he goes over to him. He just starts grabbing his arm in a way that's like, God, it's just so. It's scary. We know.

It's so impressive what we know. Yeah. Like, we've not been in the wild with a champ, but everyone in the room knows, and you watching know, this is something different than play. Because at first, it's like everyone's kind of laughing, and then it, like, turns. And yet nothing crazy is happening. It's just, like, pulling on him, and you see it on the boy's face. Like, he realizes this is bad. He's really in a tricky situation, or it could turn really quickly. And that's what I'm really interested in is, like,

If you were describing that in a court report, well, what did he do? How did you know? I don't know. I can't tell you, but fucking everyone there knew and anyone that's watching knows. And that's the part where I'm like, oh, we're still so animal. Yeah. Like we still have all, we fucking know when there's an issue. Danger. Yeah. It's really fascinating. Yeah. Because you grew up in a city, everyone, but you still know. Yeah, it's true. So then at one point he's,

Travis is being very insolent and the mom like can't really get him out or something. Like she was, she needed reinforcements. So she called her friend who's friends. Let's add. Yeah. She's completely out of her mind distraught too. She just lost her husband. Yeah. No one in the house is doing well. Right. Okay. Okay.

And, well, and she's just upset that she also can't bring Travis places. To get pizza and stuff. Yeah. So she calls her friend over to help her with Travis. And the friend has been over many, many, old friend, good friend, knows Travis well. Very well. Yes. An aunt of sorts. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Brought him an Elmo. Yes.

Which Elmo's, I guess, Travis's favorite. Yeah, he loves Elmo. Boy, that really says something about the power of Elmo because that was the human's favorite and it totally transcended species. Well, it didn't work. No. Although he brought it with him, didn't he? Or was it just next to the car? I can't remember if he brought it with him. I think it was next to the car. Yeah. So she gets out with this Elmo. And then so by then he is outside. He's out in the yard. He's out in the yard by then, which why? I

I don't really get that part. Yeah, he's not supposed to be. Yes. I can't remember how he got out. And she gets out of the car with this Elmo and he attacks her. And you hear the 911 call of the mom. And it is so...

Horrifying. I've heard it in my head many times since. I can't unhear it. It's much more. At this point, we've all heard a million 911 calls from Dateline and all the docs we watch. And I'm putting that at the very top of the list of the most terrifying 911 call. For so much of what you're watching, you cannot relate to their story.

Mental state. You're like, how are they doing this? But the second the friend's being attacked, now she does click into complete reality. You got to come and you got to kill him. Yeah. And she loves Travis. She says that, yeah. But she now knows there's no solution to this other than Travis has to be killed immediately. And she loves Travis. Yeah. It flips so quick, which is a little comforting. Like you can almost see. But it's too late. He's a good boy, but he's really hurting her. But he's a good boy. Don't bring a net.

Bring a net and a dart gun. At least there's that. But it's, she's ignored so many signs. It's too late. She's screaming. He's eating her face. Yeah, he's killing her. He's killing her. He's killing her. Oh, it's,

It is like horrific. It's horrific. It was so horrific. She didn't die, by the way. It's insane that she lived. She lost half of her blood. Her face was completely removed. I think parts of her limbs and maybe some finger. They love to bite fingers off in faces. I mean, they are... I guess she showed her face on Oprah. Did you not see that part? What? I didn't... It's in the final episode. I know, but they don't show it, do they? Okay, so...

They don't, but they did. And that's what I'm saying. On Oprah, they show the clip in the stock, but they don't show her actually showing her face. But on the Oprah episode, she does. And she reveals her veil. And we can do 20 minutes on that moment for me. Why? That was an incredible part of that documentary. Okay.

Because Oprah, and I believe this about her, is a wonderful person who's brought... Yes. Lots of healing to people. ...a measurable amount of joy and healing to America. Also, she made some really bad decisions. Yeah, she did. Like all people. Of course. I mean, that was the most opportunistic, terrible thing I've seen Oprah do. Yeah. Ask if she goes...

Everyone wants to see your face. Can we see your face? Why? Don't make her do that. I know. I know. I know. You're right. I know. Oh, my God. And she does it. That was...

Yeah, that was very exploitative. That was very Jerry Springer. Yeah. But again, I love Oprah. Me too. Let me be really clear. It's almost just comforting like, yeah, yeah. Everyone makes regrettable decisions along the way. You're not going to do 3,000 episodes of a show and make the right decision every time. Yeah. But that was bad. That was not good. Again, talk about the entire thing is kind of...

It's a depressing show. It's so depressing. I almost didn't finish a few times because it was really hard to watch. Everything. All of it. Natanya. That whole sadness. Talk of Travis, Buck. All the chimps involved. Oh, my God. It's just like, it's a lot. But it's psychologically so fascinating. Well, the woman who owned Travis, who tore her friend's face off within months.

Went and bought another chimp. I know. I mean, at that point...

You're looking at like an addict. Like, wait, you OD'd on this drug. You barely made it. You got out of the hospital and 12 hours later you were shooting the same amount of dope. Wow. This is a real problem. And it's one thing, like for me, it's one thing if you got mauled and you did it. Yeah. If you want a death by a champ. Sure. Go nuts. But the fact that you cause that level of harm and then you go back and

Whoa. I don't know how you, you must have to compartmentalize that guilt in a way that is, is. Those chimps are nasty. Yeah. Yeah. They don't want to kill you. They want to tear you. They want to shred you. That's so weird. They want to take out their anger on you. Why? It's emotional. A tiger's not emotional.

A tiger's hungry. You moved in a way. It triggered its thing. Speaking of which, I just saw a compilation on Instagram. I think people have their kids do this. What? They step up to the glass window at the zoo where there's a tiger or a lion. And the tiger's looking at the little child.

And then they tell the kid to turn around and come towards them. And the second they turn their back and they're not looking at the lion or the tiger, they leap at the glass. This is like a thing. Ew, I don't. And it's a compilation. And I was like,

Man, it's all about that eye contact. Because even for a little person, the lions and tigers aren't leaping as long as they're looking at them. The second they stop looking, it just like the instinct propels them to the glass. So if you...

You go to back up and keep staring? Okay. Yeah. Oh, my God. That's what I gleaned from this Instagram compilation of children. Sure. Well, this is a ding, ding, ding because I went on a hike this morning. You did? I did. As part of your training? Well, I skipped training today, so I went on the hike. Okay. Okay.

Griffith? Yeah. With who? I went by myself. Solo? Yeah. And did you go to the Observe? Yeah. Hiked up to the Observatory. And it was kind of early because... It was misty this morning. Yeah. It had like a... It had an eeriness. Tropical. Every time I've ever hiked Griffith, which is not very often, there's a ton of people. Yeah.

And I guess because it was early, there just wasn't that many. Yeah. And I was like, oh, my God. Is this a bad idea? Scary Humans is always my first. Okay.

But then I thought, yeah, what if there's an animal situation? So on my walk, I started looking up what – like I already forgot what to do if I encounter a bear. Right. So I had to look that up. Okay. And then I remember that there's all these different things you do if it's a brown bear or a black bear. And I don't think we have any bears in there. So you're pretty safe on the bear front. I just didn't know. And, yeah, so I was a little –

I freaked out. I don't even think we have a mountain lion anymore now that P-21 or two died. Until we do. Yeah, I guess that's true. He arrived. Yeah. And then there was a coyote. Okay. And then I think I saw another coyote. They're fine, though. I know. I know people say that, but remember that girl who got bit by the coyote? Who was passed out cold on a driveway. Okay.

That was a AA story. Yeah, no, she was on her bike. I'm thinking of the woman who left the sober house, relapsed, came home to the sober house, passed out in the driveway, woke up with a coyote eating her. Okay, well, so that coyote did still eat her, just a fine one. Yeah, if you pass out up there and they think you're dead, they'll start eating the carrion. Yeah, that's bad. But also, no, remember the girl, she was on her bike and it was called like a coyote wolf or something. I think she was running. Up in Canada. I think she was running.

Or running or something. But then, and then her boyfriend came on the, whatever. I think it was a wolf coyote hybrid. It was a coyote wolf, but that's, how do I know this one wasn't a coyote wolf? Canada. Well, we don't have any wolves across the street.

I don't know. Did you see any arm cherries? No, I didn't. Oh, wow. Well, they didn't talk to me if I did. Okay. Because I don't think I've been on a hike in the last three years where I don't see an arm cherry. It was pretty desolate. I did not see many people at all. Did you get any kind of a spiritual nature thing? Oh, no. You were in fear too much. I think so. Okay. Oh, my God. Is that your truck? Well, let's find out.

No. Oh, that car sounded closer than your truck. I think you're right. Anyway, but yeah, so that's a ding, ding, ding. I sent you an Instagram of your favorite place.

Cedar Point. Yes, you did. How did that... Actually, it's a ding, ding, ding because this is for Halle Berry. Cedar Point comes up, obviously. Well, she's a Buckeye. Yeah. And I don't know why I got fed that. Suspish. But it's listening, obviously. Yeah, yeah. And it sent me a clip, a video of a new coaster. Which is, you must admit, is insane. It's insane, but not in a positive way. Like, it looks...

It looks horrible. It looks so horrifying. The coaster climbs this enormous hill. Yep. And then in order to get it to do a full 90 degree, the whole track, it like reticulates, comes loose, and then the whole track swings over and joins another chunk of track. And now the thing's...

Straight up and down. It's nosedive. It's straight up and down. Fastest, steepest coaster in North America. I've never. Not even shocked. Would you go on that? Yeah. You would? Yeah, I'd feel sick, but I'd go. Out of reverence for. Wow. Yeah.

This is just like your wanderlust. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, no, no. You wouldn't go on it out of fear or that you would feel sick? Interesting. At one point in time, I would have loved to have gone on it and I would have been so scared and I would have loved that feeling. Yeah. And I'm grown up. I don't need to feel like that anymore. Yeah. Life's scary enough. We got bears and we got chimps.

And like maulings. Well, you're supposed to be brave when you're young. You're creating your life. Yeah. And then when you've created your life, you're supposed to be safe and try to make it last as long as you can. Yeah. Preserve. Preserve. But that looks scary. Look that up. People can look that up. Give it a look up. Oh, I guess we could have shown that. Oh, my gosh. I got it.

Rob's got it. You want to show it? Okay, let's show it. I was really excited to use our... We have this TV in the new space. Yeah, you love it. And like, why not use it? Maybe we should have had the MotoGP race just playing in the background.

It's not great for our listeners. So I do want to only use it sparingly. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. Not that. That's not it. What the fuck is that thing? I haven't paused on the video right now. No, no. I'm just saying that. Look at that one. That's fake. That's AI. They've removed digitally some chunk of the track. That'll be next, though. Just hurl you into the air and they design it so it always lands back on the track. No, no, no, no, no.

Isn't it funny? We have so much tech and so many things and so many ways to escape, and yet we still want to go to amusement parks. Yeah. It's kind of interesting. Yeah. We want to play out our fears. Yeah. Who thought of this? What psychopath? Look how pretty Cedar Point is, though. You see Lake Erie in the background? Yeah. Is this whole thing, this is digital. Yeah, those people are fakes. This whole thing is a rendering.

Wait, do we think it's not even real? It's said. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Think of that moment that you're sitting at 90 degrees looking straight down. Oh, my God.

This is the part I don't like. I don't like loop-de-loops. Oh, you don't? I love speed and height. You don't like corkscrews? No. Oh, I do. I like speed and height, but I don't like my equilibrium getting that jacked. Yeah, I bet now I don't like corkscrews. Even watching this. Feeling ill. Yeah. Answer the call. Siren's curse. Ew. 2025. That's what happens when you don't own IP.

Like if that were a Disney product, they would have linked it to like, you know, something relevant. But this is just sirens. And you know who it is. Six Flags.

That's not. Oh, it says coming in 2025. Yeah. Okay. Shit, maybe I'll be there opening day. Do not. Please. Oh, my God. Maybe I'll get hit. There's no funnier video. All blessings to Fabio. But the fact that Fabio was invited to ride the very first ride of this roller coaster, it was a big publicity thing. I know. And there were cameras. And he fucking hit a seagull with his nose. I know. He came back into port.

With a broken nose and feathers all over the place. I mean, what? You couldn't script that. You really couldn't. Well, just like remember on also Armchair Anonymous, the girl who got like a bag or a poncho on her? Yes, someone's rain poncho flew off and suffocated her. So scary. Okay, speaking of seagulls. Oh. Steven Seagal. Oh, nice. Really nice. His...

His mom. Did you find that clip? Yeah. Well, no, I just. I have it. His mother's Irish. In real life. Yes.

Yeah.

I'm pretty sure she is. Mongolian? Mongolian. Now they're Mongolian. Let's put it this way. I'm Russian. I'm a lot more Asian than I am.

Wow. She was born in a shoebox. She was Native American. She was Mohawk. She was Mongol. She was French. She was Italian. She was Irish. Yeah. He did throw in what seems to be the truth, which is his mother was of Irish descent. His father was Jewish. Yeah.

Okay, so this is great. His paternal grandparents were Russian Jewish immigrants. Right. So he does say Russian a lot. Yeah, but I don't think they were Mongols. I don't either. No. But I don't know. I think they were part of the diaspora. Obviously, the incentive and the motive is so clear. He felt entitled to play Native American whenever he wanted, to play Russian when the situation called for it. Yeah. He just wanted access to every ethnicity for his art.

And then he recorded a reggae album. Yep. Yeah. As you do. My mother was a Jamaican witch woman, medicine lady. She told me everything I know about healing and music. That's a pretty good Steven Seagal. Yeah, you do it in that episode. It's okay. My mother was born in a shot glass in a bar in Tokyo.

Well, me, I went to have some rice wine and found my mom in her mouth. Ew. In her mouth? In his mouth. Ew. I said her, but some of the rice wine did get in her mouth. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Now, you said Catwoman. It's Catwoman. I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. But I did want to tell you who has played Catwoman. Okay. I'm going to add, Catwoman's a legendarily, it's a Hollywood legendary curse project. Really? Because, you know, there's also the crazy story about a certain female actor who went on the lot dressed as Catwoman to get the role and kind of took herself out of show business. I'm not going to say her name, but.

It was a very... What's it start with and end with? I'm trying to think of her name. Oh. Well, again, she was a hot commodity, and then that thing, everyone was like, uh-oh. Okay, so the people who played Catwoman. Julie Newmar, Lee Merriweather, Eartha Kitt, Michelle Pfeiffer, Halle Berry, Anne Hathaway, Cameron Bikundova, Lily Simmons, and Zoe Kravitz.

Damn, there's been a lot of Catwoman women. Yeah, and I was Catwoman for Halloween. Oh. Yeah. You were a cat. Were you Catwoman? Oh, I was a cat. I've been both. You've been both? Yeah. When were you Catwoman? Gosh, I guess it would have been probably 2012. Okay, so just before really we met.

Yeah, I don't think you met her. What motivated that costume? It's an easy costume. Okay. It's Lycra onesie. Yeah, you get a black onesie, you throw on some nose and whiskers, some cat ears, and like maybe I wore a cape. Okay. Yeah, that's easy. It's really easy. Maybe I should go as Catwoman. Maybe I'll do it this year. I might too. But not if it's bad luck. Yeah.

I think it's bed locks. Yeah, I think so too. Some guy told me that. Yeah, some friend of yours. Okay, when was Chris Farley at Second City? He was there. So what I did was I checked my facts on my phone, which is why I have two devices out. Oh, okay. Multi-prong approach. Chris Farley was a cast member from 1989 until he was promoted to the main stage in 1989. Quick.

Then he was in three reviews from 1989 to 1991. And then he shot over to SNL. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What should your blood sugar be? Before meals for adults, blood sugar should be between 80 and 130. That feels high. After meals for adults, blood sugar should be less than 180 one to two hours after eating. Okay. Okay. Fasting. Oh.

For normal fasting, blood glucose levels should be between 70 and 100. Oh, so it doesn't change that much between fasting just before you eat. Do you know what your blood, we should have done blood sugars. We should have. I just got my omega-3 results back. Have you done your omega-3 test kit for Dr. Richard Isaacson? You stopped participating in that? No, she went out of town. So we had to reschedule. Have you done the scratch? All of it got rescheduled. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, my omegas are as abysmal as it gets. It's really impactful when you see the spectrum and then they put the good side in green and the bad side in red. Oh, God. And it's like brick red, all my results. It makes sense. But my triglycerides were low, which makes me happy. They were in the green. That's good. Triglycerides are scary. One time mine was high. Yeah, remember? Yeah. Yeah, on a physical. Right.

Right. Well, remember also one time it was like 600. That was. And that I called bunk at the testing facility. Oh my God. There's so many ding, ding, dings. Oh no. What now? You said on this that you don't eat fish. And then we were talking about omegas. And then at our dinner the other night. Yes. So we went to a dinner for Wondry, our new home. And it was lovely. It was at Republique.

and there was a fish there and you ate it. I know. And I waited till you were done eating it. Like you had like two bites left and I said, do you know that's fish? Right. What percentage do you think I didn't know it was fish? I really thought you didn't know. Really? What would that have been? I mean, that's nothing looks like that. But it just, it had-

zero fishiness. It did. So I kind of thought maybe you thought it was some sort of chicken. Outside of like sushi, spicy tuna, which I do like. Yeah. Outside of that, that's the first piece of warm fish I've ever had that didn't make me absolutely nauseous. I was shocked that you even tried it. I am too. I'm so glad you did. I think it was because our new bosses were there. Oh. So I took a bite and I was like, oh,

Now, I will say this. Yeah. A great review of fish is it didn't taste like anything, which is also weird. No, it tasted like buttery. It was so good. The crummy kind of fry thing on the outside was good. And it was in a sauce. It kind of tasted like buttery sauce. Oh, I loved it. But the meat itself was almost, it was just a delivery device for the spices. Well, that's how I feel about chicken.

I don't like, like the actual taste of the chicken isn't good. I agree with you, but the skin is quite tasty of chicken. It's incredibly tasty. Yeah, but how often are you eating that? Always. Really? Well, not when I get the can of chicken breasts from Costco. Not to Costco, not a sponsor, but. But we love them. Yeah. I don't know why they're not a sponsor. I mean. I know. I've made many movies inside of Costco. I've done as much as I can. Do you have a membership? Yeah. Yeah. Of course. I've had one since.

2005. Do you get it for free? No. Because of the movie? No. I should. I'm on the training video, I told you. Oh, that's cool. Okay. So that's it. Okay. Yeah.

I loved interviewing Halle Berry. Very special. Really lucky that we got to talk to her. She's so cool. It kind of felt like wrestling a tiger. Oh. Yeah. Or a chimp. No, no, not a chimp. Oh. No, not a chimp. Because you had to look in her eyes the whole time? Well, just like, she's powerful in a great way. Oh, my God. She's very self-assured. Yep. And it is very attractive. Yep. And she's not going to go along with anything else.

But she doesn't 100% agree with. She doesn't want to eat fish. She won't. That's right. But she does like fish, as is established in the episode. Yes. Yeah, I really enjoyed her. Do you think... She's beautiful. What if I just stopped? Sometimes I wonder what will happen. Sometimes I wonder if you're going to get caught in one of these, yeah. Sometimes I want to just stop moving. What do you want me to do? Splash water in your face or smack you across the cheeks? Oh, I don't like water.

I guess I wish, I think, could you just like play with my hair a little bit? Oh, okay. Try to bring you out gently first. And then as we escalate, as I'm getting more and more worried, water first, then smack. Or you can just like, that's fine. Tap, tap, tap. Yeah, tap, tap, tap. And it's still not working. Splash. Sure. Okay. Sure. Screaming. Actually, I think you should slap because we don't, I could drown in those splashy water. Do you remember my Papa Bob story? My Papa Bob always took a nap on Saturday afternoon.

And he in the back bedroom, they called it. Sure. And after his nap, he would take us to Kmart. And we got one trip to Kmart every time we visited. And we got a Hot Wheel. That was like the budget. I don't know what David got, but I always got a Hot Wheel. It was like $1.99. Oh. And I couldn't wait to get that Hot Wheel. And David couldn't wait to get whatever he was going to get. And so Bubba Bob would say like, oh, I'm going to take a nap in the back bedroom. Yeah.

You know, I'll be up by whatever, maybe even wake me up at one. Okay. So we go in there and it starts with us going, Papa, Papa, it's two or whatever time it was. Papa, Papa.

Papa, now we're screaming. Now, I want you to know, at no point do we think he's dead. You didn't? Because we can hear him snoring. Oh, thank God. If you think I had some throat clearing issues, he had a nose one that went like this. It was like... He was doing that all the time. Oh, wow. Okay. Sounds like some sleep apnea. Well, I just... No, that was when he was awake. He was kind of like... Trying to get whatever. So we knew he was alive. Right. Thank God. So it escalated to a scream. Papa! Wake up, Papa! We're screaming as loud as we can.

We're screaming in his ear. What? And he's not waking up. We're shaking his body. And he's not waking up? And he just snores. I mean, fuck. He must have been so tired. I mean, he worked at Wonder Bread Bakery all week long carrying bags of flour. Yeah. And he had these two kids with him on the weekend. I wonder if he had sleep paralysis. Yeah. I think he had something.

Yeah. I mean, it's insane. This is the most, I think the most vivid memory of my Papa Bob and David remembers that exactly the same, which is comforting. And David gets the idea. And mind you, I am probably eight at the time and David is 13. So I'm taking his, I'm definitely following his lead. Yeah. And he, we know splash water in the face, but we think that might get, he might be angry. Yeah. Chuck. So pop, uh, David says, let's get, let's get a wet washcloth and we'll put on his face.

All right. Okay. And we run into the bathroom and we make a wet washcloth and we bring it over and we lay it across his face. Nothing. Papa, wake up. David's like, let's get another one. So we, I don't know what the logic was at this point, but I was in the process of putting on at least the fifth wet washcloth over his face. Oh my God. That sounds like the most insane story. But if I call my brother right now, he would tell you the exact same story.

And my Papa Bob finally was suffocating. Yeah, I was gonna say, that's scary. Which we didn't think of at all.

As kids. Oh, my gosh. Because it was completely over his nose and his face. And then he started suffocating. And then he woke up suffocating. And I was just putting on this other one. And he, it wasn't like a punch, like he wound back. But he came up and, you know, he was a boxer. Oh, God. And he punched me in the stomach as I was putting this cloth on. And I flew off the bed. Oh, no.

Landed on the ground and I had the wind knocked out of me. And so then I was, you know, when you get the wind knocked out of you when you're a little kid, you think you're dying. So it's like Papa Bob's gasping for air and just leapt up. And then he has punched me across the room and David watches the whole thing. And now I'm on the ground going like, you know, where you think you can't catch your breath. Yeah.

We went to Kmart. Oh. Like that didn't. Did he feel bad or did he feel like. You're going to kill me, boys. You know, like what the hell's going. Why are there all these watch? Oh, my God. And he felt bad. He had fucking punched me across the room. Yeah. Oh, man. Poor, sweet Papa Bob. Another great one. This one's way quicker. My mom and dad dropped my brother off. By the way, this is in keeping with what I just told you. They dropped my brother off.

So they could have a date night. And I don't know where my grandma Yolis was. She was out of the picture. And just Papa was watching David. First granddad. She was out of the picture. She just wasn't there. No, she's like, I don't know when she had an appointment. Yeah. Whatever. She wasn't, clearly wasn't involved in this. Yeah.

And so my parents returned to the house after their date night. And when they walk in, David's standing there and he's three and he goes, I did a bad thing. And they go, what did you do? And he goes, I washed Papa's hair. And they come around the corner. And my grandpa used to always take a nap on the floor in front of the couch when he was watching TV. And my brother...

got Pert shampoo and started washing his hair and he had used the entire bottle. So my Papa Bob, his entire head was covered with Pert. And he was asleep? Yes, he's dead asleep and there's suds everywhere and there's a whole bottle of Pert on his head and it's leaked down onto the fucking green shag carpet. That's so cute. That's so cute. I washed Papa's hair. Also...

Oh, my God. What a bizarre idea to get. Like, he's three. They're watching TV and he notices Papa's asleep. Maybe he thought he'll be so happy. I like it. Yeah. Or wash his hair for him once. Because when you're three, only like a few things have happened. You get your hair washed by your parents. Yeah, it's a nice thing. Also, like, not the best babysitting move to fall asleep. Clearly not. If he missed an entire...

No, the house could have been on fire. I mean, this is, that would have been 1972 that this happened. God, times have really changed. The fact that he was even watching the kid by himself is a miracle. It's true. It's a testament to what a good guy he was. Yeah, how sweet. Do you want to put a picture of him in here next to Charles? Oh, I would love that. Collins? Yeah, Collins. The guy who invented podcasts. Oh, Chris, Christopher Collins.

Lydon. Lydon. Lydon. Johnny Lydon. I can't believe I remember Christopher and not Lydon. Okay. Christopher Lydon and your Papa Bob. Yeah. Cool. Well, that's it. I just got excited that maybe, what if there was a heaven? Oh my God. Maybe there is. Oh, I'm going to wash his hair. The first thing, as soon as I see him, I'm going to cover his face with washcloths and then I'm going to wash his hair with an entire bottle of Pert. All right. All right. Love you. Love you.

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What's up, guys? It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season. And let me tell you, it's too good. And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay? Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation. And I don't mean just friends. I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox. The list goes on. And now I have my own YouTube channel.

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