Bill Lawrence
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Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, experts on expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Monica Lawrence. Oh, hi. Completing Bad Monkey Week. We had Vince on Monday. Yep. Which aired on Tuesday. Just kidding.

Callback, fast forward, Easter egg. Fast forward, go backwards, roll over. And then today, of course, we have Bill Lawrence, who is one of the co-creators of Bad Monkey, but he's also a writer, a director, a producer, award-winning. He created Scrubs. One of the biggest showrunners of all time. Created Scrubs, co-created Cougar Town, co-created Shrinking, Ted Lasso, Spin City.

And now Bad Monkey. Legend. He's a monster. Yeah. And a sweetie. Yeah. And a good boy. Really, really good boy. Yeah. And cool guy. He's a cool guy. Well, especially when he had his tips frosted during Spin Shitty. Yeah. As you'll hear, that's not our thing. That's not our thing. No. Bill says that. That's Bill. That's all Bill. Please enjoy Bill Lawrence.

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I wrote on Friends when I was a kid. The joke was that I was Maddie's fatter younger brother and then fatter older brother and then skinnier older brother and then skinnier younger brother. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because Maddie was, you know, up and down. And this is already too exciting. Pull your microphone close. You wrote on Friends? First year, yeah, I got fired. You did?

Oh, we got to hear about that. Do you want a cup of coffee? No, I caffeine'd up. I was nervous because I was thinking about talking about it. I don't know if you remember it the same way I do. And there's kind of seminal moments when you're a kid. But I think there was a window that I was almost going to be friends with you. Yeah, I know it exactly. Yeah.

Hugo's restaurant? Yeah, yeah. And then you were really kind to me and asked me to come see a screening of Chips. I choked and I didn't go. It was early on in the process. I'll tell you why later if you want, but I have a really bad history of seeing anybody that likes things. And then they've

fail no no because you ever read this essay famous among writers it's called no i don't want to read your fucking screenplay the greatest thing ever written by the guy who wrote history of violence yeah look at you dude i blew up so many things in my life and career that i stopped getting asked to work on pilots and stopped being asked by friends to go to screening because i would literally go you want me to say it's awesome and give a couple jokes or you want me to tell you what i'd do

Yes, yes. And I'm so bad at it. I don't know if you remember this, but I extricated myself. I'm like, oh, I don't think I can go. I had committed to it too. So I felt like a douchey guy. I don't have any memory of that. I have memory of it. I'm like, oh, you have these little moments as a kid that you're almost, you and I could shoot this shit for hours and hours. We had a dumb meeting about something. I just felt like, oh shit, I don't have a lot of Hollywood friends and I had a chance to connect with you and I didn't do it. Check it out.

Well, as often happens when I give amends to people, they don't remember what I'm talking about. And in fact, I might be incriminating myself by even breaking, you know what I'm saying? Like, well, hey, I'm not sure I knew you stole my Vicodin. How did I know? Fuck, let me process that.

I have no memory of you not showing. You know when you direct a movie, there's so much happening and test screenings and you're in the editing bay. I'll tell you the most significant thing about the chips thing that really frames it is Delta turned one years old and I see photos of her birthday party and I'm like, I'm like,

I don't remember being there because I was just so buried. I don't do that shit anymore. I leave work for kids. Yes. But I was doing the same thing back then. Because you're panicked that the thing you've just spent two and a half years of your life on is or isn't going to work. And that you don't think you're ever going to get the chance again. We were shooting the shit about Spin Shitty. We call it Spin Shitty. Oh, okay.

Lovingly called Spin Shoot. I was like, do you want to take that badge and try it again? My buddies and I, we worked 45 days in a row to start that show off, including Saturdays and Sundays. And a lot of us were married and relationships fell apart. Gary Goldberg, my mentor, passed away. The Christmas gift, which he thought was funny but was not funny, gave all the writers beds, like really deluxe cots for their offices. Fucked up.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like an abusive. - I know. - For getting your prostitute. - Hey, congrats, you'll be here forever. - Yeah. - A kiss. - Getting her like fur covered handcuffs. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - For you. - I think let's start with your and I's history 'cause it's fun and then I wanna know the personal history. - Sure. - And friends. We have already so much to cover, so many pins. - No, you're gonna be able to, anything. - I'm down. - So as my memory serves and maybe you'll have a different opinion, but I believe the first time we met was you were about to direct

Fletch. Yeah. Writing and directing Fletch. And kind of what's already great and funny about that right out of the gates is as you and I have talked about many times, I am regularly confused for Zach Braff. Yep. And he was attached to be in it. And so when he left, how many people before you thought, well, I know this. I know this guy. He's got a twin. He's got a twin.

A Gentile version of him. Should we want to explore that? It was a shit show, too. It's such a weird thing to talk about because you know it was Harvey Weinstein. Did you know that? Oh. It was fucked up because I was definitely seduced because I was a young TV writer kid and Harvey came. He's like, you're going to write and direct this. And he took me to all these award shows and was dragging me around. And is that how he positioned it? Like, you're going to do this. You're going to be the comedy Quentin. I was 22.

You were in the thick of scrubs, yeah? Yeah, it was like the third year of scrubs. And I was a huge Greg McDonald fan. I actually got to know him, the guy that wrote the Fletch books before he passed away. He passed away from pancreatic cancer. And just an awesome guy and a crazy good writer. And I was obsessed with it. And I didn't necessarily think Zach was the right guy, but Harvey had just done a bunch of movies with Zach. And he's like, you'll do it with Zach. And like anyone...

Your age, my age, Zach's age. We're all obsessed with Flats. Yeah, you're obsessed with it until you consider doing it. And then the burden of it, you're like, oh, this is a huge mistake. Yes, yes. Redoing Casablanca. But the only four guys I spoke to, it was Zach, and then right when I took the gig, he's like, I don't think I'm going to do it. I'm like, that's okay. I still want to do it anyways. It was you,

And it was you because not only had I seen you on Punk the Bunch and around, but you had done some, I'm going to botch the title. You're an astronaut and you were so charismatic. Zathura. Zathura, you were so charismatic. Do you know what I mean? In that movie. He was. You just proved exactly why that movie didn't work. You couldn't remember the name.

name you guys gonna see zathura this weekend exactly i really want to see this movie i want to look like a fucking asshole ordering the ticket saying it wrong fuck it i'll go see chicken little let's see zathura but it was only you john krakinski krasinski krakinski yeah john krakinski and then i knew ryan reynolds for a long time oh this is a flattering fact and that was it that was the gang

Okay, so you and I meet at Hugo's. Is that the name of it? Yeah. I assume that was your spot. I used to get breakfast there. I lived close there up in the hills at that time. I was a single guy. Where'd you shoot scrubs? At a deserted hospital on Riverside, Coldwater, Riverside. Very close to there. So that's a perfect peach pit, home base for you. Yeah, please. So I came to you. By my recollection, had the most dazzling breakfast. It was awesome. I remember I went going like, I'm not going to be in

let me back up there's even a little more context i had a couple stinkers in a row as much as you liked me in zathura it did not work it did not make money and so it's not like i was in a position to be choosy i wasn't i was even panicked at that moment i'm like i'm just so flattered this dude would want to meet me to be a lead of a movie he's directing but also i can't do it so what do i do well i go i fall in love with you we have so much fun i don't even think we talked about the movie that much we were just shooting the shit and making each other laugh i think we both acknowledge it shouldn't be done in

some version. Yeah, it was a hard-to-firm mistake for everybody. And you were under this crazy time crunch, as I recall, that if you didn't get it up and moving... I had to start it within six weeks or I was in violation of a Disney contract on Scrubs. So we meet, and I love you to the degree where I'm like, maybe I just do it anyways, even though it's a terrible idea. Even though it's a terrible, terrible idea. So I can hang with this guy. I have a lot of confidence in his vision and his talent, but by some miracle, I didn't. And then my punchline is maybe...

four weeks after that, I was in New York. I had never met Harvey Weinstein. And I was at Bungalow 8, made famous by that's where he was jerking off in the bushes. I know. So I'm just standing in this club. I'm kind of enamored with the whole thing. And all of a sudden, someone comes up behind me and grabs me. And I hear in my ear, is this the guy who's too much of a big shot to be in my movie? Ha ha ha!

And I turn around and it's him. But he did grab you. Oh, good point. It counts. Congratulations. You didn't count that. We'll count it. Yeah, I turn around and it's him. And he's almost like a comic book character. You know him. He's a supervillain, right? Yeah. I got so creeped out by the whole thing because I had to meet with him. You know, he's at the Peninsula Hotel. And I would meet with him. He'd have meetings stacked up like 10 in a row. And he would be packing egg whites onto his fork like snowballs with his free hand. Oh, wow. Nom, nom, nom, nom.

And it was definitely like meeting with a Star Wars villain. Here's the thing though, right? So Jon Hamm did it. Do you see it? I didn't see it. I did interview him. I watched some clips and I was like, I think they went another direction. They did the books. Chevy turned it into kind of a silent live sketch. The books were dark and sordid and underbelly. Film noir-y. Yeah. And I was going to try to do that. I was probably really lucky that I did not. But.

Harvey ended up suing me. The whole story of that is the end of this thing, but it was my introduction to movies and why I probably never did movies again. I bailed because none of you guys wanted to do it. Ha ha ha.

The only smart thing I had done was I said that you couldn't use my screenplay unless I directed it. I wasn't chasing writing movies. So when I left, I'm like, yo, this isn't working, you know, and I got to go back to Scrubs. He's like, yeah, we'll just have someone else direct your screenplay. And I was like, no, you can't. Then I was working on a television show and my screenplay was delivered to all the networks as a, do you want to make this a TV show owned by him? And he's like, I can't legally make it a movie, but I can legally make it a crappy TV show. So it became a legal fight. Wow.

Yeah, isn't that weird? It was interesting only in a glimpse of Hollywood as a dude when the coin flips, he's so ruthless, immediately like, I'll fuck everything up about your career right now, 27-year-old, unless I can have this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just ran away and hid. I remember the first time I got sued, my lawyer called me and he said, I have good news and bad news. The good news is you've officially arrived. Is that going to you yet? We've got...

We've got a cease and desist. Oh, that's cool. That counts. It counts a little bit. I'd like to leave it at cease and desist. I'm not really looking. I don't want to go full Sue. No, no, no, no. I'm not ready for that. You're happy to like three quarters of a ride. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's too high of a mountain for me. Cut to then our next interaction. Again, as I remember it, I was lucky enough to get invited via Kimmel to Howard Stern's house. Yes. Yes.

And so Kristen and I went and Molly and Jimmy went and you came over for dinner one night. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My wife is an actress, Kristen Miller, she's in a bunch of my shows and the Drew Carey show and stuff. She has been a Howard super fan and a regular guest on the show in his circle forever and ever and ever. So I get to glom onto her. This wouldn't shock you, but my main memory of our interaction was you describing the Myers-Manks dune buggy that her brother had. Oh,

That's insane. I was just with her brother there looking at the shell of that thing because it's dead. You know what I mean? It's dead in his house out in Montauk. But yeah, that thing was amazing. It was so fun. And then the other thing I'd say we have in common is Ricky. Oh, wow. I was going to say one other thing that you skipped over quick, though, is that Zach Braff constantly pitching me.

a movie about two identical twin brothers. I think he said it was your idea. - Called Nature versus Nature. - There you go, by the way. That's the only thing I remember. - Two identical twins. - 'Cause he's like, "If you heard Dax's idea, it's so good. I get raised by a Jewish family on the Upper East Side, and Dax gets raised in the Deep South." - Yeah, in Appalachia.

and let's see what nurture did to this equation it would be great yeah i'd love to see that what's really fun and i'm sure zach was very transparent about it is over the years as he and i ebb and flow in different ways like sometimes he's got a lot of rhythm and leverage i think maybe the time i pitched him the idea he was really on top and i wasn't and he didn't love the idea as much as at some point he came to like it i think we even talked about that when i interviewed him

Seem interesting. Hold on a second. I want to get back to that idea of yours. Yeah, circling back. Wait, I want to know how you met your wife.

Oh, she was the star of the Drew Carey show. And I was doing Spin City. And we had to go... Remember, there used to be upfronts, network television stuff. I lived in Soho. I had a loft at the corner of Prince and Mercer. And I was cool for about 10 minutes. I was very lucky because the guy that she dated at the time, an actor, was being a jerk and didn't go to the party with her. And she came on her own. Oh, there's a funny story about this. And I can't even name names. So she came on her own. I met her, but she was dating someone. But she was probably the first woman that I became...

friends with without dating or hooking up. So I became friends with her

over a year just because I thought she was funny. We had mutual friends. I was shooting the shit with her all the time. And don't get me wrong, I was trying. I was in New York. She was in L.A. doing Drew. And I kept going, hey, you should stop dating tiny actors because all the actors she dated were very short. They're like little guys that could ride around on her shoulder and stuff. And you're quite tall. Hey, it's so nice to meet you. That was me shaking their little hand. And I'm like, you should date a comedy writer. You know, they're much less... This is the worst moment of my life, by the way. I want to hear what they're much more. Yeah.

True. The only thing I had was they maybe don't glance in a mirror on their way out with you. You know what I mean? I have a buddy that we made fun of. We played basketball with. I won't name him because he's a working actor. But our favorite part in this tiny gym in Beverly Hills is a ballet mirror on the wall. And every time he scores, you can watch him backpedaling. Yeah.

Just checking out the coverage. Just giving a look. Yeah, yeah. How's that angle? Is that good? Babe, you can't see the camera. It can't see you. My wife finally called me up and she goes, I've decided to finally break down and date a comedy writer. And I thought it was me. Well, of course. And she goes, I think you know him. I'm like, I bet I do. No.

Let me guess, is he has dazzling blue eyes, the color of Aquamarine? He's so funny. I don't know if he's so funny all the time. She's like, Les Fierstein. I'm like, Les Fierstein? Ha ha ha ha ha!

Oh, that's great. Who's Wes Feierstein? He was a super successful comedy writer for a long time. How long did that last? I lucked out because this is when I knew I was in. You can tell me as a woman if this works. I still talk to her like once or twice a week as a friend. And then after three months, I got a call and she's like, hey, my boyfriend said she doesn't want me talking to you as much on the phone. I'm like, oh, cool. I get it. I'm like, oh, I'm in. Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good sign. He knew that you were a threat. That Thanksgiving, she left a note on my door in New York. She said, I'm around. I was hoping you're in town. I called her up and said, you better be single. And she was, and she went to Cabo with me and a bunch of randos that Christmas. Oh, wow. It was crazy. We were married like five months later. And you've been married 25 years. Yeah. Long time. I've been married 27 years total because I was married for a year and a half when I was 22. Oh.

Oh, I can choose who you're going to marry. Oh. Okay, so cumulatively married. To her, though, 25. To her, 25. That's great. Super proud of a year and a half marriage when I was a kid. Yeah. Sometimes you got to get it out. Marriage practice? Yeah, starter. Sure. Do you feel protective of your reputation? You have an immaculate reputation in this business. Oh, that's so kind. Everyone speaks, understandably, so highly of you. Almost a suspicious lack of enemy.

No enemies. Zero enemies. What's the sword underneath? You're like Jack Black, I guess. Everyone just really likes you. And do you feel like, I really want to protect that? I'm so hyper protective about it and spent so much of my youth worrying about what people thought of me. I'm trying to conquer it now. I was not a big therapy guy younger, and I've really buried myself in it the last five years because, you know, as a guy that hit 50 to still be worrying about what other people think. As you do better and better, don't you feel like...

we live in a toxic climate that if you're doing well, people want to go like that a little bit. Yeah. And we talk about it a lot. I mean, my take on it is, and by the way, I'm cynical by nature, but I'm not so cynical that I think people are that bad as much as I think the power of story is so powerful, which is they've gone to the top.

What is the rest of the story? Unless you build a mountain next to that mountain that's higher for them to climb, we don't have much option. These things are really powerful and I almost just think it's like people clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, and then you're there and they go like, the only thing that could be next

is a fall yeah well by the way at this point that's why I was so messed up and I had to get some help is that the narcissism that is buried deep in your head of people are gonna give a about something 20 years ago no one cared but me I should be better at this because I've had so many peaks and valleys in my life and career I didn't think I'd have another little Renaissance at 55 which is really exciting and I do want to know about navigating those valleys I've had many

to myself. I'm really bad at it. I got a lecture when I was a manager that managed all comics, Howard West and George Shapiro, these guys that, did you ever see Man on the Moon, that movie with Danny DeVito and Jim Carrey? Danny DeVito played my manager.

Oh, wow. So he had married Andy Kaufman back in the day. What stories he must have. Oh, my God. Those guys used to get mad at me because I was so bad at the valleys because Hollywood is so like talking about what you're doing. Yeah. And every time I was in a valley, somebody would be like, what's going on? I'd be like, nothing. I'm lucky I got out of my boxers today. I was lying fetal until about noon. Ha ha ha.

They're like, that's not what you do. You say you're working on stuff. Don't be honest. I stop being sad for like a half hour midday to eat and then I go back to being sad again. What are you doing? What are you up to? Okay, do you think the reputation and worrying about what you thought starts young? I'm way out on a limb, but it's just so seemingly obvious. Your name's so spectacular. William Von... Van. Van. William Van Duser Lawrence IV. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's a lot to give a little boy. I hide that shit up. Yeah, you do. You had to get a bill ASAP. Billy. The van. Van Duzer. It's a nice dutchie. Everybody's comedy comes from somewhere. My family, my dad is an American blue blood. My great-great-grandmother is Sarah Lawrence, Sarah Lawrence College, and Bronxville, New York.

It was a Lawrence Hospital. The college admissions building was where my great-grandfather lived. So when I was a kid, I would wear suits to Thanksgiving and have manners practiced beforehand in butlers and servants in the whole nine yards. And my mom's family are all lovingly white trash. My mom's the first one in her family to ever go to college. They're all largemouth bass fishing guides on the St. Johns River in central Florida. And D-land, delightful D-land. My mom and dad only met

because my mom got a scholarship to go to Rollins and my dad is where private fuck up rich kids go. - Oh wow. - Wow. - That's awesome that you had those two dramatically different backgrounds. - It was insane. Thanksgiving was at my grandma's house, my mom's mom, called Little House where 12 cousins would sleep in the garage.

And then you would go to Christmas at my dad's family where people were using words like perchance. Right, right, right. You had different silverware for everything. It was bananas. How did dad do when he had to join mom? My dad's an all-time good guy. My dad and his brother were the first two men in that family to work for a living in like six generations. Wow. Crazy. I know. Did you watch the Sarah Lawrence doc? Fuck yeah. How many people have asked you about it? Oh, so many. Come on. Yeah. Come on.

Everyone's texting you. I still go there and teach. I'm a commencement speaker there a bunch. To a lot of people, it just sounds like Bob's College because not everybody's heard of that stuff. But they're like, oh, I know that school. The dad prostitute sex cult. There's a cult. It's cool. I know it's so unfair to Sarah Lawrence. We talked about it a bunch because we were obsessed with that doc.

And we would always just go like, yeah, real bummer for Sarah Lawrence. It didn't even happen on campus. They were like in an apartment. I know. Way outside the school. It'd be like if they all worked at Starbucks and they called it the Starbucks. Three of them worked at Starbucks. It's the Starbucks sex cult. That school is so cool too because nobody knows the real story. I'll do it in two sentences what I like about it. So...

Money is toxic and my dad's crazy wealthy family, I wouldn't say they were necessarily the most open-minded and best people in generations past, but this guy, the original William, by the way, I used chicken shit to go there. None of my kids went there either because there's like a huge statue of William Van Duser Lawrence, the original, and it looks like me, but he's bald and has mutton chops. So he's the first. Yeah, he's the first. Every male in that family is either named William Van Duser Lawrence or Robert Clitherall Lawrence. Clitherall.

That's too close to clitoral. Yeah, really? Is it? Yeah. It never struck me.

No, it's an instant straight line to getting beat up, whatever. But the original William Lawrence is a real estate baron, and he met Sarah Bates, who believed in arts for women, and she was a poet, and there was no arts for women back then. And she changed him, made him an open-minded guy, and when she died, he had their estate turned into an all-girls college for the arts. Yeah, that's radical. Which is kind of cool. You could be very proud of that. It was neat for a second. And then straight line from there to sex cult. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What better place to start a sex cult than a former all-girls college for the arts? That's where people are really looking to experiment and find themselves. Man, great doc though. Fuck. Yeah, it's pretty good, right? Really good. And that guy, what a

No, I know. Okay. So growing up, were you kind of hiding from that? Were you a target? My parents took great, great pains to make sure I didn't grow up as a rich kid. And I didn't, you know, I grew up definitely upper middle class in the mean streets of Connecticut, but I wanted to come out here and be a comic at 18. And I probably would have died because I was definitely not ready maturity wise, you know, and was not behaving well. My dad had something that was, if you go out to LA when you're 18, you'll

have our love and support. But if you graduate from college and you're struggling with rent money, we'll help you out. But if you go out now, it's ITI. And I was like, what's ITI? He's like, it's instant total independence. My dad is like a bottom line guy and he meant it. And I've used that on my own kids to limited degrees of success. Well, I hope this flatters you. In my life at 49 years old, rapidly approaching 50, I have only called

four people for advice in my life. You're one of the people. I don't know if you remember this. No, tell me. Is it about a kid? I called you and I said, you're a really good dude and you grew up with a ton of means. I'm about to raise kids. Oh shit. I remember talking. And I don't want them to be assholes. I'm obsessed with this. I feel like I should ask an example of someone who didn't turn out to be an asshole. That's so nice. My kids, I'm so proud of them. I mean, that boys are so stupid, but they're

lovely. They're so dumb. But my daughter has been the most challenging and she's turned out to be super cool and she's got this giant life. I hit her up with the ITI when she dropped out of high school, you know, when she was

17. Really? My daughter is a musician, singer, songwriter. I mean, our whole family went and saw her play Radio City like three months ago. Amazing. That's awesome. But I almost blew it. My daughter, when she was a senior in high school out here, she had a top five song in South America. And so all these guys in shiny suits descended.

and said, your daughter's got to leave and go on tour right now. I believe in education. So I'm like, nah, she's got to finish high school. I mean, minimally. I'd love to see her go to college, but we got to get her through high school. And she didn't talk to me for three weeks. And my dad called, really conservative dude. And I thought he was going to go good on you because we care about education. And he said, if a bunch of dudes showed up at your door and said your son needed to go to Spain to play basketball, you'd already be gone. But because it's your daughter, you're fucking up.

Let's go, dad. What a take. I love that. So I let her go. She promised to get her GED and I gave her ITI because it's a family rule, but she split and she has never asked me for a penny. She's killing it. That's awesome. Wait, what's her name? Charlotte Lawrence. If you watch the show, Bad Monkey is the first time I got into work with her because I put her in it.

Yeah, she plays the bad guy's daughter. She's like one of the main characters. Oh my God. That's your daughter? That's my daughter. I don't care about Nepo stuff. I was doing Bad Monkey. You know, she's not an actress. She's a touring musician. She's fantastic. She did not stink of someone's kid. Oh, good. Because I have a real good radar for that. I'm like, who the fuck? How did this person get in the mix? I got so lucky because Apple was like, yo, you got to find a kid to get some young people to watch this show. Someone with a million Instagram followers that has a different audience. And I'm like, I know somebody. I know somebody. I am.

That has maybe a little bit of a growing up too quick past. I know someone I'd like to hang out in Miami with for six weeks. So yeah. Oh, that's great. Oh, it's so nice, man. I feel weird saying also she's beautiful. Oh, she's so hot. What if I said that?

I'm so sorry. Charlotte, I know you want to listen to this show. That was just a joke. I went harder. No, I went harder. We had an episode the other day and I went even harder. What was it? Did you say something that was sexy? No, it was about the dance. We were debating whether or not the father-daughter dance should still exist. And I said, yeah, it's weird. But, you know, if you're going to do it, don't play bump and grind. No, dude. I don't see nothing. Don't, don't, don't.

So I went a little harder, so don't worry. It's so complicated. I'll tell you what happens to me now. I wear my daughter's merch to her concerts, and when she sings, I get emotional, and I cry and say Charlotte Lawrence on the sweatshirt. And only recently did I realize that nobody there knows I'm her dad. They just think I'm a 50-year-old dude. Ha!

Crying. It shows up at like a young 22-year-old's concert. Oh, my God. Very moved emotionally. And cries and knows all the words. Oh, my God. There's like a circle around me almost immediately. I'm like, no, it's cool. I know it. This is the good version of this. No, it's fine. Don't even worry about it. It's totally normal.

Oh my God. Yeah, you need like a sticker that says, I'm her dad. It says, I'm her dad. I was like, calm down, I'm her dad. Yes. It's so bad. Don't call the police. I'm her dad. And her friends. LA is so insane. You must have this because their peer group, you know, Charlotte's friends, Gracie was opening for Taylor. I was at a friend's

Dinner, daughter brought a friend over, my buddies, John C. McGinley, if you guys know him, he's a guy who's on Scrubs forever. And he's like, yo, this is the grownup table, Charlotte and her friend, you guys are going to sit over there with my kids. It's adults talking here. It's like a year and a half ago. Charlotte and her friend both went okay. And then literally two weeks ago, John's like, yo, that girl I made sit at the kids' table, I just saw an entire magazine in the supermarket and her name's Olivia Rodrigo. Oh my God. Wow.

Oh, that's amazing. And he's like, you could have told me. I'm like, I don't know. These kids all look like they're 14 to me. It's bananas. Okay, so you do go to college. You go to William & Mary. William & Mary. So you did at least want to stick with first name college. Oldest college in America, dude. State school.

The thing I liked about it was it was in Colonial Williamsburg. There's a comedy club nearby and weather was nice. When I got there, the big comic was Jon Stewart because he went there. And then the year below me was Patton Oswalt. No. Oh my God. It was a cool standup scene because remember I'm old.

And that was when tourist towns like Colonial Williamsburg had a comedy club. And so there'd always be like a local dude. Virginia is also a culture shock now? A little bit. I do remember that William & Mary was a state school, so it was definitely diverse. But the second you left the tiny capsule of the campus, you definitely realize you're in the deep South. It was pretty funky. Okay. So you come to LA immediately after graduating? Yeah. I hung out with friends for a couple of weeks and drove out here like an idiot.

And how'd you get your first writing job? You have an English major? As a creative writing major, if that's such a thing. And by the way, the dirty secret, you guys know it too, is you go to college. I mean, my dad just wanted me to grow up. Nobody ever asked me where I went to college. Nobody gives a shit. Right, right, right, right. I don't gonna make fun of him. I don't care. My eldest son is a senior at NYU.

And by the way, Miles, he scammed the system. He was not a good high school student. And then he went to ASU, Arizona State. And then he wrote an amazing essay about how he had finally gotten a hold of his kind of learning disabilities and stuff. And he transferred to NYU. I'm like, oh, good on you, man. That's amazing because all your friends worked so much harder to get there. Work smarter, not worse.

It's not hard. He's killing it. He's a good kid. But not a lot of people know this. So all these colleges now, you can do a year abroad, like in Europe or something, go to college. So they also do it in the United States because there's so much unrest in Europe. I think UCLA has a campus in Miami or Chicago and Michigan has a campus in San Francisco. You know, you can do it in different cities in America.

And my son's a senior at NYU and he came home literally a month ago and he goes, I got into the NYU year abroad program. And we're like, where are you going? He goes, Los Angeles. Oh my God. Wow. It has nothing to do with my girlfriend living here. I'm like, okay. But the family now is just tortuous.

torturing him on, hey, just make sure you really bury yourself in the culture. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, try the food. Don't miss out. Speak the language. Yeah. Really get to know the people. This is an amazing opportunity. Yeah, just to explore. You need to learn a different quadrant of our city east of the 405. It has nothing to do with the fact that my really cool, pretty girlfriend lives here year round. I just want to be in LA. Well, you know what I glean from all this? He knows how to get where he wants to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's working the system. He's also a middle kid. Yeah, yeah. I can relate.

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So how do you get your first writing job? I came out here. I didn't have any Delawise painting houses. I didn't know anybody west of the Mississippi, nor did my family. I had no Hollywood connections. It was super lucky. For a year, I just struggled. I did open mic stand-up. I was trying to do stand-up a lot, but I sucked. Out of 10, what would you give yourself as a stand-up? I was really good writing material, like 8 or 9. A performer, even since college, like a 5 or 6. Okay. That might even be the worst zone you can be in, because you're not so bad, you know, to get the fuck out of it. It was awful. Yeah.

It was awful. You might just spend your whole life. I got a real set one time and people were laughing at a weird point because I always used to wear a baseball hat backwards. And I realized I was like screwing myself in it. I was spinning it in a circle. And that's why they're laughing at weird vibes. It's a tick. Yeah. It looked like I was trying to screw myself into the ground. It was so weird. By the way, you know what my favorite thing is, is with Rick, Undateable, they made us tour as a comedy tour. Two of the three years it was on.

And the headliner, he was such a jerk to the other comics that he would rate us all at the end. You know, I would always open and do 10 minutes. And then it was Rick and Brent Morin and Ron Funches, Chris D'Elia. My one highlight of standup is once it no longer mattered to me, I was kind of good at it again. And then one night the headliner at the end was like, in a surprise, Bill Lawrence, the non-comedian, coming in second in our group of five tonight. I was literally like...

Right at the moment, I don't care. I know. So my mom was an auctioneer. I couldn't get anybody to read my stuff. And she said, I did an auction, you know, in Connecticut for this guy named Norman Barish, who wrote on the old Dick Van Dyke show with Carl Reiner. And he said, my agents were these guys named George Shapiro and Howard West. I don't even know if they're out there anymore. And I was watching Seinfeld and it says a Shapiro West production at the end. And they're managers. They manage all comics. I mean, Seinfeld and George Wallace and Mel Brooks and

Carl Reiner. They're old, old, old school Hollywood guys. And so I hunted them down and I said to Howard West, I wrote him a letter and said, if you read one of my scripts, I promise I'll never bother you again. I can't get anybody to read my stuff and nobody out here. And he read it and he's like, it's pretty good. It's not for us. Keep working. You're only 21. Congrats. And that was it. And so I just sent him another script. I go, yeah, I know. I said, oh,

But this time, more than the last time, this time, I swear. And he thought that was funny. Literally, I was 22 years old and he signed me. I guess I'd be like valet money for him. He just didn't have any young clients. And I was on a writing staff the next Monday, literally five days later.

called Billy. There's a sitcom starring Billy Connolly. And it was so new to the business that when the PAs come and go, what do you want for lunch? Because I had no money. I'd be like, I'm good. And then I'd eat like a giant bowl of cereal. Yeah. And on day three, the executive producer came in. He's like, hey, shithead, we pay for lunch. And I'm like,

I will have everything. Everything. What's their catch of the day? My only memory of that show, because I didn't know how Hollywood worked as such a dick at the end, because the cast and crew gift was a jean jacket that said Billy with the heart over the eye. And I'm like, dude, I don't want this. And he's like, what? I'm like, no one's seen the show. It's my fucking name. I'm like, people are just going to think I wear jean jackets with my name on them. But I think that's cool.

Even worse, you put a heart over the eye. That's great. Don't make it. Let me guess, Bill. Cool heart. Nice. You have that made? I want to hear how you got fired from Friends. I got fired off of, in a row, Boy Meets World, The Nanny, and Friends. Boom, boom, boom. Those are my first three jobs after Billy.

And got canned off of each one. All for the same reason? I think I had to learn different lessons along the way. I'm such an idiot, man. By the way, Topanga, Topanga Lawrence. I think I named that character back in the day on that weird show. I loved that show. You see, by the way, it's a great lesson. I was on that show and I was so into what the cool kids thought of cool comedy. And I thought it was beneath me, right?

And I was, without a doubt, not respectful to it. I wrote an episode the first season, and I remember putting a line in that show had some treacle. And it was, I can't believe I hurt my dad because I love him more than anybody in the world. When the kid is embarrassed by his dad. That was back when there's still message machines. And when I went home after the episode aired, it was like, you have 28 messages. It was all my buddies back from the East Coast going, hey, bud, I just want to tell you I can't believe I hurt my dad. Oh, no. I love him more than anybody in the world. Yeah.

He doesn't want to have your dad. Hey, Bill, can't believe you hurt your dad, man. And so I acted like it was beneath me and I should have gotten fired. So there's a lesson in every show. That lesson was if any show finds an audience of any kind, whether it's your thing or not, it deserves your absolute respect.

And I was turning my nose down on something that now is so embarrassing because people I love talk about that show the way you just did. Yes, absolutely. And I was like, this show's lame. I was such an idiot. A lot of us are guilty of that. The nanny, I got fired super fast. The nanny, I think the lesson there was that your job is not to

Write what you think is funny, which is the weirdest thing about TV Your job is to write what somebody else thinks is funny Even if it's not your thing as an actor as well. Yeah, by the way, right? Yeah It's the worst thing that I bequeathed to my children is completely unearned confidence and I had it at the time So I was a fuck-up. Well, you need a mix of it. Yeah, you need some But yeah, that's so rattling the line of getting yourself in the door and believing in yourself And then yeah, it's a precarious thing

Friends is a tougher pill to swallow and I'm always careful about talking about it because it changed my life but also almost knocked me out of the business and devastated me because I got on the first year of that show. First year? First season. And I thought I was killing it. I was 23 or 24 and I wrote this episode called The One with the Candy Hearts where the girls have a boyfriend bonfire. I thought it was really good.

And I thought I was killing on that show joke-wise. Sadly, my wife dated Matthew Perry way back in the day and he was friends of mine back in the day. And so I thought I was crushing writing jokes for him and for the other people. I did not get along great with one of the show's creators. Okay. And...

what a dumb mistake of hubris and, you know, like, oh, I'll be fine. I'm funny. I'm this and whatever. I've got the talent that's going to keep me regardless. It's going to be awesome. By the way, only now do I realize the last thing that anybody doing the job wants is somebody that's even giving them tiny extracurricular headaches. Yeah, the juices or the squeeze, right? You're like, he's good, but there's a lot of great people and I don't need to be around someone I hate.

No shit, right? And so, by the way, the worst is the show is a monster. And at the wrap party, because I lasted the whole first season, David Crane, one of the other creators who I love and was really great to me, he was a little buzzy. And he's like, you know what? You're really funny. You're going to do great wherever you end up. And I'm like, oh, cool. Give me a second. And I'm like, what?

I literally called my agent. I go, yo, I think I'm fired again. Because he's so mad because I couldn't stop getting fired. Yeah, the resilience. No, I got lucky. So I got to give him props in the end. David Crane called my mentor up. I didn't have a mentor out here. His name is Gary David Goldberg. He created Family Ties and Brooklyn Bridge.

And David Crane did fire me, but he called Gary up and said, I think this kid and you will get along. Because they had met and talked before, I guess, and his personality and yours will line up. And it changed my life. Gary and I created Spin City together 18 months later. Wow. And you went from staff writer to, I created Spin City when I was 25. That's so lucky. That's so cool.

That's a lot of... It was insane. I was doing a ton of blow. I mean, I'm sure. Yes, you should. We don't regret that at this point. Do you ever see a picture of what I looked like back then? No. I'll show you later. I looked like Guy Fieri. I had white, black side hair. Oh, wow.

- Oh, you were feeling it. - Earrings going down. - Here's the thing, you're embarrassed now, but I also, you know, on some level on your deathbed, like, you should have a moment in life where you're feeling it. Like, fuck, you can't really regret that. - I don't regret it. I think it's why I don't get sucked into any of the Hollywood shit now. - 'Cause you already did it. - Sometimes when you see people fall male and female in their relationships out here,

I'm not being self-aggrandizing when they say, how come it's been easy to have a long standing marriage? And I'm like, cause I remember a six year period of time doing spin city in New York city and having a elevator that opened up in my loft in my twenties that my life just became trying to get people to leave on Sunday without having to go to brunch with them. You know,

I mean, and how empty and horrible that feels. The excitement wears off so fast. Yes. And it's so bleak. And you hate yourself. And you hate yourself. And then later that night, you're like, I forgot what I felt like this morning. Let's try that again. I like the fucking memory of a fruit fly. I feel hungry. I'm not hungry. Yeah, it's just like when you overeat and you're like, I'm not doing that again. Three hours later. Yeah, I'm hungry. It's fried chicken time. Do you stop getting in your own way now?

Yeah, I mean, it helps that it's just us here in this. It's hard to piss anyone off. But yes, I've learned. This is an amazing accomplishment. It's hard to build a world out. You guys are building like other podcasts beneath it and stuff. That's hard to do. You can't do it and still constantly shoot yourself in the foot.

No, as you would know, it really helps getting a position where you're the person you used to piss off. Hey, I've been in both seats and both have their challenges. I think being on other sides of things have helped me. Mostly I've become less insecure, so I don't need to make the joke that's sitting on the silver platter because I actually think people think I'm funny already. I can resist to some degree. It's just maturity, I guess, on some level. I'm better at it now, I think. There's a thing called the showrunners training program with the Writers Guild, and I teach people.

And John Wells teaches organized, responsible show running. I teach a thing called disorganized chaos. By the way, even today, I was very excited about this, but I forgot what time it was. I went into the writer's room. You know, I'm supposed to run the show today. And I was like, yeah, I'm not going to be here. So...

Like three minutes. I'm like, you can talk about this, this or this. And I'll see you guys after lunch. Everybody's like, oh, cool. We're going to take a walk. I'm like, I figured. Let me guess. You guys are going to be arriving five minutes before I do. Everybody good with poochie? Everyone doing a podcast today? Okay. So Spin City then leads to his scrubs immediately after. Yeah. Spin City was really interesting because Mike Fox was the first guy that I loved since I was a kid that turned out the way you would hope he would be.

And it was really tough because when I got into that show, I was like 25 when I wrote it, 26. And we sat down with him. He's like, yo, I have Parkinson's and I'm going to do it for four years and do a hundred episodes and build this Parkinson's foundation. Wow. You knew that all going in. Yeah, it was very fraught and really a great lesson in Hollywood because he was dealing with so much and he was always upfront about going, I'm still responsible for my behavior, which is not always what it's like in Hollywood. And that show was so weird because when Mike was done, we hired Charlie Sheen who could not have been a

A better, kinder dude. I didn't work on the show then, but his dad came and went to bat for him. It's so weird watching that Charlie Sheen trajectory because everybody's Spin City remembers the nicest young man who had his act together was completely clean and it was awesome. Yeah.

And then this business, you get a real front row seat to us addicts. It's crazy, right? I mean, we're over indexing out here and most of us addicts are pretty sweet. I mean, that's why we're fucking addicts. That's the biggest issue for me over the years. I see this therapist named Barry Michaels. I don't know if you know, like Phil Stutz and Barry Michaels and their partners. Oh, their partners? Yeah. That's one of Phil's drawings. I know. I saw it right when I came in. Stutz is a rock star. They wrote the tools together. Oh, they did? Yeah. But Barry calls it one of the things I've always had to work on because people are so lovable and you are so connected. Yeah.

but you have to see them on a different island than you and you have to be able to go i wish you well it's not something i'm great at yeah yeah have you had a lot of you've had a lot of those interactions yeah yeah just a friend family friends by the way let's be honest it's the world now you can't be more than two degrees separate you know one's immune anybody that claims not to be is either living with blinders on or full

You know, weirdly, and I never talk politics on here, but I would say the single only time I think I've ever seen Trump misstep to his own base was the time he made fun of our president's son having an addiction.

That was the only time it was during a debate. I think even they were like, no, that's not cool. It doesn't work. I've loved someone too. Every family here. Yeah, good luck finding one. I know, right? So I split because I fell in love with my wife and came out here. I created Scrubs. I've just been really lucky to surround myself with super talented people. I've been just creating TV shows and shit since. I had a lot of peaks and valleys though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to get into one of them before we get into this crazy run you're on right now. I would be guessing, but I feel like Scrubs had to be the peak fund.

It was so fun. Scrubs was the last of the Wild West in television. We got a deserted hospital. You know where Namie's is on Riverside? Yeah. It's across the street from Namie's. That condo used to be a Scrubs hospital. It was so weird. I shot there a few times. Ken Marino and those guys. What was that show called? Children's Hospital. Children's Hospital. They did it in our off-season stuff. But yeah, all the actors' dressing rooms were on one floor. The writers were the other. People brought their dogs.

we would drink there at night, which I'm sure you're not supposed to do. Yeah, no, it was so fun. Yeah. You could tell by the show, this show's so good. That's super cool. You were in the perfect age for it. It was the most fun I ever had. I probably stayed too long. I stayed eight years out of nine. Yeah.

To keep people employed. Eight years, I was just loving it. But you took it to another network. Well, there's a writer's strike. NBC didn't own it. ABC owned it. And ABC's like, oh, you can do it last year on ABC. The ninth year was a spinoff, and they got nervous and changed the title back to Scrubs, which was a bummer, but whatever. Yeah.

Along the way, I created this cartoon with Chris and Phil called Clone High, which was funny and weird. Those two are so hyper-talented. They're awesome. They kind of make me mad. They're awesome. They came in and fucked up Scrubs because this is good post-op. Because I put the writer's room of that show in...

the hospital just because I didn't know you weren't supposed to do that. And only like a year later, I got a call from Disney going, yo, that MTV show, is there a writer's room at your building? Are they eating the food? I'm like, is that not okay? And that's why all the voices were Scrubs actors and me and all us idiots. Yeah, that was their first thing. You had it close to your own studio, basically. Yeah, it was awesome. You had like what, Buster Keaton. I wish, but yes. Yeah, you're playing baseball in the back.

We set up a basketball court. We had a game room. Zach Braff and Sarah Chalk may have dated a little at the beginning of that show. And it was super volatile when they broke up. And then I started cloning high and Phil immediately started dating Sarah. It was literally like one of those kind of fodder for a reality show. But that was fun. And then after that show, I created this show called Cougar Town. Such a shitty title.

So embarrassing. Listen, listen. Great show. Go back and check it out. It's pretty good. When you're six months ahead of it becoming ubiquitous, you know, this is great. This is great. And then it just happens. I'll give the example. I had a tribal tattoo before there were tribal tattoos. Is that true? It was an album cover from a punk band. Still there? I got a cover. Thank God. It's in without a paddle. Which you just watched. Yeah, yeah. I haven't seen that movie in a while. It's a funny movie. Oh, man. Yeah.

Every roided out dude I'm seeing has got tribal ink on him. I'm like, what's happening? I gotta get this off me. I remember how that show came to be because I knew Courtney a little and the head of ABC is like, hey, Courtney wants to do a sitcom. Will you do it? At the time, I was not good at writing women. I was just a guy's guy my whole life and I was still learning. I'm like, I'm not sure that's my voice. And I went back to the writer's room and I'm like, you know what sucks?

is so hard to get shows made. And if I said I'd do it and I just said, it's Courtney's going to get divorced at 40 and go around dating guys for the first time and called it Cougar Town, it would be on TV. It became a room bit in our writer's room of like, yeah, there won't even be cuts. So just a claw will go, you know, rip the screen apart. We're just making bad jokes about it. And then Kevin Beagle, who's a super talented young writer back in the time now he's old.

Still younger than me. Very seriously, we walked out of the writer's room just to fuck around. And he goes, yeah, I'll do it with you. And I'm like, you really want to do this? And we went and pitched that joke. It's called Cougar Town. And the president of the network was like, oh, we'll put that on. It happened that fast. Wow. And then we were mortified because nobody wanted to watch Courtney anymore.

chasing younger guys that seemed desperate and sad. So the first six episodes of that show suck, but the next 120 were cool. It just took us a second to figure out. Yeah, things take a second. And now, I mean, look at Seinfeld. You watch the beginning, they're not even the same characters. The kids and I started at the beginning. I was like, holy smoke. Are you showing your kids old shows? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I showed my son, my youngest, Spin City. He was like, was this on TV? And I'm like, yeah, man, I didn't show it in my garage, dude. It was...

I didn't think 100 plus of these for me. You just do this with your friends and like showing at barbecues and stuff? Is this where you're like your Instagram or something? It's on television. So silly. Okay, so after Cougar Town, I mean, 2013, I want to just say two seconds about it. You had three shows going. I don't know. That seems like madness. Too many shows? And I'm not implying any of them suffered because of it. No, no. I'm just looking at that. I've said on here publicly a trillion times that

that the most gangster of all roles in Hollywood is showrunner. It's number one. Nobody works harder than showrunners. No one has more on their plate. Whatever you think a director is in a movie, it's times 100. I notice you guys get along better than any other peers in show business because you know. People always ask me why some of their favorite showrunners aren't doing stuff anymore. And I say, because it's such a high burnout thing. And if you love your family and love your relationships,

You either have to stop doing it if you're a control freak and can't let go and can't empower other people, or you need to learn you have to empower other people. And I didn't know that at first. I had a real bad section of my career for my family too. You know, I was having kids and my wife was a star of a sitcom for 22 straight years between Drew Carey, Scrubs and Cougar Town. And she took a second to raise our three kids. And for a second, I was a little absent. I regret it. I course corrected, but now I really empower kids.

other writers that I've worked with, other people that I've worked with. I go home at 5.30. I coach all my kids' sports teams when they're younger. I just recommitted to the other stuff. Yeah. It's very hard. Yeah, it's kind of like a lawyer. Part-time showrunner would be like a 12-hour-a-day job. Yeah.

The younger writers, if we're ever there past like nine o'clock, they weed me out like I'm someone's angry grandfather when they're literally like, why don't you just come back and see what we did in the morning? Okay? That's sweet. It's going to be okay. You can come back and you just go to sleep and you come back and see it. And then you can say all the things you ate that. You'll still hate the things in the morning. Yeah, it's going to be fine. But you'll be resting. You'll be nice. You won't lose your ire. Yeah.

So embarrassing. No, no. Okay, so between 2013 and 2020, although you're still by all accounts a very successful... I created shows that just disappeared into the ethos, man. I felt like throwing them off a cliff. Coming off of such an enormous success of both Scrubs and Cougar Town, I'm imagining that kind of eight-year gap between Matt and Ted Lasso, you're missing...

- Minimally, I would imagine asking yourself, do I know the recipe anymore? - I'll tell you two interesting things, maybe interesting, maybe not. One, what helped me later in life is I realized I didn't give a shit, 'cause there's a lot of people hung up on legacy, and I really like writing, even though I hate writing, I love having written something, but writing itself actually sucks, so let me correct that. I hate writing, but I like having written something. - Just introduce my daughter to that saying. - I know, right? - And you know what she said? - What? - I love writing, and I go, that's right. I shouldn't have even said that.

When you start writing for money. What you do in the back of your head, though, when someone says, I love writing, keep an eye on them because they might be a sociopath. A red flag. I thought you were going to go, they must suck. That's what I thought I was going to say. I don't mean stare at it all the time, but just corner of your eye, maybe there's someone that doesn't know. Check their closets occasionally. This is how a human would behave, right? Humans like writing, right? Yeah.

They're like sitting by themselves in a room, right? No, they love it. They love it. Just circling like fever dreams in your head over the same thing over and over. People love that. The one thing is I realized young that an advantage of

growing up safe financially and having that background, because I don't really care about the economics of it. And I knew I would be fine from Spin City and Scrubs. And I knew I could always teach and that you can always write. And emotionally, I was going to be fine. The thing I was plagued with was I had the sense that I was a dinosaur. When I talk to writers now, and I say young writers, but even writers that are late 30s, early 40s, and say, Scrubs, you know, or Spin City, in four years, we did 100 episodes. And

And these kids are all like, "Ooh, we gotta do 10 episodes of this show." And you know, I used to be joking around about narcotic use. Sometimes it wasn't even for fun. I'm not even blind to it. It was literally a work element thing of like, "Oh my God, this is episode 26." It was bananas. And I was still clinging to a network model of television when it was dead, 'cause it was the only thing I knew. And so the scary thing for me was told my wife that I was gonna kinda extricate myself from that. I didn't know if it was gonna work.

And we had a vacation house, tough problem, but we sold it because I just wanted to take a risk. And then I started trying to do streaming shows and that changed things for me. That was Ted Lasso. I got really lucky. What was the quintessential ingredient or change between network 24 a year and then streaming 10? I did a show that...

that I executive produced that just upended my life. And it was called Whiskey Cavalier. You guys haven't seen it. I can tell by their looks. It was really good. It was a cool cast and it was an action comedy. And if you watched it now, I guarantee you, you'd go, holy shit, how did this not work? But it was a network, hour long, banter driven, Beverly Hills cop type thing. And what was messed up about it was I'm like, this will only work if it looks cool and the stunts are cool. And they're like, you don't have the budget to do it here. So I went and I moved to

Prague. I did it in the Czech Republic away from my fucking family. And I was sitting there going, this is worth it. It's not, it's going to work. It didn't. And so for me, the epiphany was going, when you do these monster shows that you're trying to appeal to, remember the old network model was appeal to everyone. I used to go into meetings where the subtext was, we want you to do a comedy that appeals to every gender race, race,

age. Socioeconomic. Yeah, exactly. Everybody must like it. And you're like, that's insane. But by the way, people did it. You did it. Well, I lived in that world. It was so crazy to think about that. And so for me to make the transition, the big difference was I told everybody if I could change my production company name, I'd change it to Noble Failures Production because it's streaming things. And the new world is if you can make something that you're not embarrassed to show your friends and family, that means that there's a small audience for it somewhere. And who gives a shit?

Yeah, it's a niche business. Yeah, changed overnight. Have you happened to listen to the episode of Revisionist History, Malcolm Gladwell's podcast? No, I know the podcast and I know Malcolm Gladwell's stuff really well. He did the most incredible... Is it weird if I just keep bragging about how I know Malcolm Gladwell? No, no, no. I mean, give me five minutes. I brag about it. And one of the things about... No. I brag about it as well. But it's all about Will and Grace and this weird...

kind of perfect parallel one of the creators of that show's sister created orange is the new black i'm so tied into it i took her job in the first season of friends she got laid off before me oh no kidding yeah the kind of societal impacts of those two different paradigms is fascinating he gets into voting trends in people in the era where we all watch the same show that you could predict people's voting the best corollary was how much tv did they watch

in the 80s, and you get on a bus with anybody, didn't matter, and you had all watched the Cheers finale. The impact of having to write in that creative box. Will & Grace is credited for marriage equality. Like it moved the country because they had to play in this really safe box. And it's like Orange is the New Black is a great show, but it didn't move anyone's opinion on anything because it's niche. It's a fascinating episode. You would love it. I got to check it out. The weird thing about all of this is the second you stop trying to appeal to everybody, you

Because Hollywood is still fun this way, you can randomly appeal to everybody, which is the biggest mindfuck of it all. Yes. So going into Ted Lasso, and I'm curious, I know that they're generally not fond of giving anyone the metrics in the streaming world, but from the outside of all this...

It feels like Ted Lasso maybe was even bigger than Scrubs. Ted Lasso was a monster. One of the biggest shows of all time. Yeah. I don't mean a single, in fact, we hadn't seen it and we would get fucking hate comments. I just mentioned I hadn't seen it and people are like, what is your problem with Ted Lasso? Like angry. They really took it personal. You know, I ended up watching as I fell in love with Juna Temple. Oh, she's awesome. From Fargo season five. Yeah. And I'm

Like, oh, now I want to see her. And that's how we ended up watching it. And of course we loved it. And my kids love it. Comparatively, it's so weird because Spin City probably got watched by more than all these shows because it was still a time that there's three networks and everybody watched everything, which is so weird. You had tens of millions of viewers on it. Oh my God, it's so crazy to even think about. I wrote Mike Fox's retirement of TV episode

And the ratings for that were like Super Bowl ratings now as bananas. But Ted Lasso, I haven't really ever been part of a show that felt zeitgeisty like that. And it was very weird. It was not its intent. I remember...

Sitting around with Jason Sudeikis, by the way, huge props to him because he created the character long before I came into the picture. But just with him and the other creator, Brennan Hunt, and the writing staff, we were so not remotely convinced it would work. But just all talking about what a shitstorm the world was, it would be nice to write something vaguely wholesome.

hopeful and optimistic, you know, so you don't at least feel like a piece of shit. The weirdness is the extension of now people going like, you fucking watch this show about optimism. What's wrong with you? I'm like, just chill out. You fucking cynical bastard. By the way, that was my hurdle. Earnestness for me is really triggering. I think it's like the punk rock background or whatever it is. I feel like an outsider.

I have a real hard time. You're stumbling into something that's an issue for me because I'm a softy and I'm overly earnest. I've been doing the same thing since I was 25. And sometimes people think it's cool and sometimes they think it's lame. And then they think it's cool again. Then they think it's lame again. Well, have you ever been hit with this theory? I don't know who pitched it to me, but I find that it makes a lot of sense. And I kind of believe it's true, which is if you watch shows that work,

and you put them in the time context of what was happening. We generally like the opposite of what's going on. The example that was given to me is like during all the Obama years, everyone felt great about that. And that was the rise of all the antiheroes. You watched Veep during those things. It was literally a show about just finding different ways to be horrible to each other. It was so funny. Yeah, so funny. And then you also had Breaking Bad. It was the boom of the antihero. And it's because we were so safe in the other thing. And then COVID is like the least hopeful time.

And so we want to see the opposite. And there's just this weird rhythm that you can't account for. You hope you hit it correctly. But I do think that rhythm exists. I think it's a tightrope because like you can stay earnest and

If you don't fall on the wrong side of treacle, depending on what's treacle, you've said it twice now, overly emotional tropes, like saccharine, it's sappy cliched moments of emotional treacle, T R E A C L E. It's a good word.

Think about that. We'll write it down. Yeah. We're going to need to write it down for the dislodged. Treacle's a good word. Yeah, it is a good word. Treacle. Okay, great. We learned a new word the other day, too. We do need an ongoing list. A viviparity. Oh, shit. What's that mean? Live birth. That's what mammals do. No eggs. I'm not big with the book smarts. I find like five or six words and I just latch onto them. Treacle's pretty good. Treacle's solid, right? You can't have it both ways. You can't drop treacle on us and then act like you learned it. But you already pointed out I use it a lot. William...

The Vendoozer. Lawrence the Fourth. Lawrence the Booksmart. You fraud motherfucker. But you do walk that line so well. Like, Scrubs is such a perfect encapsulation of that. It is sweet. That show's such a loving show. Sad. Happy. People die.

There's lessons learned. But it's so funny that you're not hung up on it being over the top. I think that's the tightrope. I remember talking to you at Hugo's because we have shared comedies that we like, and I don't always know if I can write them. I'm trying now with this new one. But I have to be inherently optimistic or I feel slightly buried by the bleakness. So the show Shrinking is based on a true story of my neighbor who's this great family guy

He went on a summer vacation and his wife and one of his kids was in one car and he was in another car. Traffic, they're dead. And it was the pilot of shrinking overnight. I was a guy that had to go four in the morning on a Tuesday and there'd be bad people and bad things going on at his house. And you felt so much for him. And we are in a world that you could...

pitch that nowadays as a comedy, which we did with Siegel because he wanted to do a thing about grief and addiction. I can't write those things unless it has an undercurrent of hopefulness or I find them too bleak. Is it almost you'll procrastinate because you don't want to revisit it? It's just not for me. I find my way through the world with

with an inherent belief that things are gonna work out okay for good people. And it's challenged in Hollywood all the time. And I don't mean that there's not gonna be absolute body blows along the way, but man, the doom scrolling, it all ends in darkness thing doesn't work for me as a creator. So I think you can do that earnest shit

as long as you sprinkle in plenty of... - Irreverence and sarcasm. - Yes, and anguish and mental pain and death. - Even though I say that's not the thing I'm attracted to, I am not judgmental of it. It's like a vibe thing. What it truly is is I'm a younger brother. If I got caught being earnest, it was embarrassing. To have believed in yourself and then failed would be way more embarrassing than just failing. And if you talk to me before any movie I've ever had come out, I'll tell you why it's gonna fail.

Because it would be more painful for me to think you thought I believed in myself and then I got caught. So it's my own baggage. There's no question. I'm confused about where it comes from. And I'm not correct. I think you should hope for things and believe in the things you do and wish for the best and believe that they're possible. I'm not being judgmental either. I just sometimes have wondered, I'm like, do I always need to write with this kind of undercurrent of hopefulness for my own mental well-being? And then that's why...

I'm not trying to segue to a different show, but my favorite author is Carl Hiaasen and all of his books are dark satire and nobody's redeemable and everybody's a piece of shit. And it was really fun for me to enter that world, but I think I was only able to do it because it wasn't as scary because somebody else had written the story.

Yeah. My favorite shows in a really weird way, because it's something you were just saying are shows I know I couldn't write. I couldn't write Veep. I would love to try, but I watched that show marveling. Trey and Matt, I still can watch South Park and go, what the fuck are these guys doing? It's so funny. Yeah, yeah. And twisted. Let's even back up. I generally don't watch comedy. I like dramas. I already do comedy. I feel like I can see jokes coming.

I know it too well. Have you done that to your kids yet? My kids think my magic trick when they were little, this is the 10,000 hours. Yeah. You'd pause a joke set up on like Big Bang or whatever. And I'd say the punchline and they'd go, you saw it. I'm like, I didn't see it. Because I've been doing this for 9,000 years. Yes, exactly. I know you like standup though still. Weirdly more than I ever have. I'm obsessed right now. Are you a standup nerd as well? I like some. I'm not as big as Dax into it. I'm crazy about it. I also think it's a skill set to see people command these rooms.

I've been taking my kids to see shows. It's one of the things we connect to. Have you seen Shane Gillis yet live? I didn't see him live, but I saw his specials. He's really good. That stuff about the Washington reenactment, it's insane. He's so funny. Oh my God, it's insane. I took all my children and my wife to see Tom Segura out here at the Forum. It was an absolute crazy crowd shit show, but it was such a fun experience. I'm in awe afterwards more than my kids are.

when somebody commands the stage like that. And takes their time. Oh my God. Watching Mulaney right now, especially in that kind of twist his life took and just going, hey, that's a part of my character in my show. And it's insane to me. It's so brilliant. Yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. This is a mini meditation guided by Bombas.

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It's a weird thing I'm struggling with right now with what's allowed comedically. I think anyone in comedy, you're always walking along, again, this 20-year fucking anniversary of Without a Paddle thing we did. I'm saying shit in there that's terrible. I'm doing an Indian accent. I'm like, oh my God. You have to acknowledge that things are a part of the time. Yeah, things change. Cat Williams did a great interview about this particular topic, about how things were of the time and how he doesn't feel comfortable

challenged at all by what the new rules are. You were already doing them. There's always been new rules, A. And B, you can still do whatever the hell you want. Just be funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're not funny, be careful. In 2003, when we shot it, we were playing within lines. The lines moved, and fine. The whole, like, lamenting, whatever, there's still great shit.

All to say, okay, Bad Monkey. Yeah. You and Vince knew each other because you played poker when you were younger. I was in a crowd with him that would drink beers and play cards and stuff before anybody had made it. I think I was 23. I hate that he's younger than me. I think he's 21. I was thinking about it the other day because I randomly was watching a little Swingers because it was on. Impossible to turn off. My first Hollywood moment that made me believe Hollywood was real and almost a place, even though we all know it's not a place.

I was playing poker with Vince when I was 23 and this would happen all the time. One night I folded, I wasn't in the hand and the Domino's guy came. I get the pizza. I went to the door. And right when I answered the door, you just hear Vince from the other room going, Bill, ask him if he likes musical theater. Bill, if he likes musical theater, ask him to come in. Tell him he doesn't have to sing, but I want to watch how he reacts to some of my favorite songs.

Bill, so if it's not musical theater, ask him what type of things he likes music in and you'd be paying the guy. And I just remember that. And then I went and saw Swingers like a year and a half later. And he's like, ask him if he wants to come in and dance. And I'm not saying that was based on me. He did it to everybody.

Yeah. But what a cool thing for a young person to go, oh shit, you can see a funny moment with your friends and it can be a movie that becomes iconic. It was bananas. Yeah, it's like breaking the fourth wall. There's something impossible about that. Bringing in for the real thing. All of his quotes existed in real life. By the way, I didn't see Vince for years and years and years. You're not as old as I am, but we're at least of an age where...

that there's no way you weren't comedically influenced banter-wise by what he was doing. I told him this and I'm sincere about it. For me, the comedy paradigms are like, it's Letterman, Bill Murray, and then the next one for me is Vince. You and I connected big time, I don't know if you remember, over Letterman and Murray back in the day. I used to stalk Letterman because I grew up in Connecticut and we knew the tiny place he'd stop for his coffee and egg sandwich in the morning off of the Merritt. And we would stay around there and skip classes in the morning. Not even to do anything. Just to be like, hey.

And he wouldn't even say it was fucking awesome. Yeah. Greatest day of my life is he came here. How was it? Oh, it was great. I had to work on it for two weeks in therapy before it happened so that I fucking didn't try to impress him. I didn't ever hear that one. I'll go listen. He bummed me out. I don't care. He bummed me out. I don't care. So on Spin Shitty. I think he's mispronounced. We do that every time and I kind of want to remember. It was a story based on, remember I told you I was always drinking and having fun and I went to this writer's house one night.

before we all went out and his mom had a 19 year old tiny dog that had no fur on it and one eye had exploded. And I was just high enough that I swore, I'm like, that dog was looking at me and his voice was just like, please kill me. Just fucking just push the TV over on me. I won't even move. And I'm like, we're going to do that in the show. It's gonna be funny. We're gonna have a talking dog. We did for a few episodes. And then Mike Fox is like, I'll get Dave Letterman to do the voice, which he did. It's been my idol since I was 12 years old.

I'll go over and record it. He's not always the nicest guy in these situations. We don't like him because he's a bedside man. But imagine this weird thing is if you worship him. And by the way, you'll know it because you're a fan if you're on the other side of the gag. So I went there and he goes, just push the TV over on me, Kenny, because he loves the name Kenny.

And I was 26. I had to go, oh, it's so funny. Mr. Wendham, can you do one? Because the character's not named Kenny. Could you just do, could you do one without saying Kenny? And he goes, yeah, no, I got it for you, Bill. I got it. No problem. Just push the TV over on me, Kenny. And I'm like, uh,

In my head, I'm like, how am I going to cut this out? And I'm like, maybe do one if you're going to do Kenny and everyone. Maybe do it at the beginning. He's going to be like, no problem. Just push the TV over on me, Kenny. And then finally I was like, all right, we got it. The EP there. Rob was like, it's time for you to go. I'm like, no, I felt it. Oh, God.

Oh, sure. I mean, I almost expected. It's a badge of courage. It makes me love him more. Oh, yeah. And you got a much better story. If it went great, you know, what do you got to tell? Is he full beard still? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll tell you the best moment. I'm in the house. I watch his car pull in. I'm in my house looking out the window. And again, for me, getting to be on a show and knowing him so well and knowing him as

Enough to go, oh, he likes me. It was so fucking great. I'm immediately jealous. The number one experience I had. I've been thinking about stuff like this all the time. It must be so rewarding to grow up with that shaping your voice and to know he thinks. I have a little of it. I got to see when I was in New York this last weekend, Mikey Fox. He's in a wheelchair now and he's struggling a bit, but still crushing. But it's that icon from Back to the Future. I'm very jealous. I'm annoyed by it.

And so that's the number one moment for me. And then I'm trying to integrate the notion that he's come to my house now to let me interview him. It's just so much for me to compute. And I'm watching him get out of the car and he gets out. He's so loud. I mean, like looks around and there's like seven guys in the garage building the garage. And he walks in there and he goes.

Guys, it looks great. Why don't you knock off early for the day? He doesn't even know I'm watching this out my window. And I'm like, oh my God, he's everything I want him to be. He did a joke for himself. Yes! And these dudes, they know it's Letterman. It was so great. There's two things I love about that. One, just being honest, my pipe dream since I was a kid, I'm buddies with Conan. I've always wanted to be a talk show host. I'm so jealous of what you guys do. You'd be great. And it's my favorite thing in the world. My buddy Brett Golstein is always like, you got to figure out a way to do it. I'm like, it's too late for me.

And I'm fine. So the fact that you got to do that with him, I should be happy. But I don't know if you guys have this. You guys have this? It's fair. I used to like musical theater when I was a kid. And I went and saw Book of Mormon when it first came out. I just remember this experience. And Trey and Matt, if you guys ever saw it, it's so fucking funny. Instead of enjoying it, I'm 10 minutes in. I'm like, fuck.

these guys. That's how he is. It makes me insane. You're ding, ding, dinging what I was on the verge of telling you, which is my Vince thing is so complicated because I saw Wedding Crashers as an unemployed actor in a movie theater and I was like, oh my God, he's doing everything I hoped I could do and he's doing it at a level I know I actually can't do.

And that option's now gone. This thing I dreamed of doing, I'm watching it. It's like a metaphorical door. My whole game plan just evaporated because this guy's already doing it. He's doing it way better than I can do it. So yeah, interviewing him was a big deal for me. And I was very, very excited about it. He took it very seriously. It's really been interesting for me. Things that I would think were so facile for him. I talk about this and I think he did smart list. And I think it's like the only real promotion he's even doing for the show.

He's not a big promotion dude. No, he curates it by stuff that he likes and pays attention to. And by the way, I can see why he doesn't because I'm reading a fucking... Oh, that New York Times piece? The person was looking for something. Is that what you're talking about? So annoying. The Owen Wilson shit when he goes, Owen Wilson, you know, apparently had a real crisis and was suicidal right when you were hitting the biggest level of fame and your friend tried to kill himself. What did you feel about that back then? He's like, what are we doing?

And he's really nice. He's like, Owen's one of my favorite people. I love him. And yeah, success is an interesting thing. He does as good as you can do with that. And then they resume the interview six days later. And the guy goes, hey, man, I was going real light on you. You know, I want to come back to this question about Owen Wilson. What? What?

And Vince is kind of like, I don't know what you're trying to do, man. This is one of my best friends and you want me to talk about his mental state? I'm not going to do it. It was very weird. I got so disheartened by, that's where we're at. You know, Vince can't be in a great show as a comedian who we love, who's very entertaining and not have to go in there and defend all these different things. But anyways, I read that and I was like, yeah, no shit. He doesn't want to go out and promote shit. By the way, the show is fucking number one, number one, number one every week. I think people miss him.

Oh, God, yeah. Oh, shit. You know what I want to just tell you? Because it'll make you happy and you have to start doing this. So you told me about Letterman doing a joke for himself. It's my favorite thing. Make sure you do it. And I'm going to give props to a comedy writer buddy of mine because I witnessed it at a grocery store. And his joke forever, just to watch other people react when anybody is like, oh, sorry, we brought the ketchup from your table. He'll go, oh, I'm so flattered, but I'm married. I'm so sorry.

And by the way, it's usually when a group of guys are eating lunch. But literally about six months ago, I was at the grocery store and I was walking up and he did not know I was there. And a woman behind him asked, you know, the bar you put down between your food? She's like, can you hand me that? He goes, I'm so touched that it's so nice, but I'm married. I'm so sorry. And by the way, just that he was doing that for himself. Yes. So if I put any message out there, do jokes for yourself. Yes.

It's so funny. That's weirdly what my therapist was hounding I was like, why don't you do things that are just for you? Go ahead and write something for you. I know you're therapied up. I've been feeling weird lately when I do it because I feel it's very easy when you're talking about specific problems

But when you're talking about your own shortcomings and stuff and stuff that you want to work on, I've been struggling a little bit because I'm still very new to it. Do you know what I mean? Therapy? Yeah. I find it very easy when you go, this is a problem that's in my life that keeps repeating over and over. And let's talk about tools for getting through it and for progressing forward and to not make those mistakes. But when it's, what do you not like about yourself? It makes me so uncomfortable, man.

Yeah. It's not supposed to be comfortable. I don't know. I prefer comfortable. He wants the hopeful version. Yeah, I know. This is what I've had to learn to do. I'm really good at sharing about the struggle I had last week and what happened last week and what we should do about last week. And I am not telling them about what I'm planning for next week because I'm always planning for next week.

I'm creating problems that like the problems I'll have next week. They're being born today. Oh, you already got them in your head. The mind is already right. And I had not want to let him in because I don't want him to tell me not to do those things. And then true trust of a therapist is like,

He's not there to tell me not to do those things. He's there to help me understand why I'm doing them. But I had to be more honest and get better at going like, here's what's coming down the road that I'm transferring. I find what those guys do has a feeling of, here's some ways to stop fucking up.

the way that you keep fucking up and then we can talk about them later and now I'm just finding that I'm landing in the now it's talk about them you know I don't love this part I like the tools part yeah yeah yeah a little less personal the tools I'm still a wasp at heart still got a four on the end of my name come on yeah you've got a lot you're overcoming a lot yeah if I were your therapist I was like let's first stop number four there's a guy at Warner Brothers he's retired he's lovely named Peter Roth who I know you've probably met a thousand times used to run Warner Brothers but I made him laugh because the first

Six weeks I worked there. I said you have now hugged me more than my dad did in 41 years, so you know get used to it So I was a person who before we knew we were gonna do this it wasn't even manipulative I saw the trailer for bad monkey. Oh, yeah, and I'm like, let me just go to the websites I like to visit it was just oozing out all the VIN stuff that I fucking have been loving for 23 years or however long and I love it I watched last night. I'm like all caught up and

It's so good. Oh, it's nice, man. I love the vibe. I love the location. I love all that shit. Were you down there for a lot of it? I moved down there. The other writer, Matt Tarsus and I both married and have kids. And we lived in a condo together as two old men on South beach. You call it beach buddies. Yeah.

super embarrassing sometimes in the morning be like should we feel worse that we don't feel bad it was it was all sorts of challenging man and florida's a shit show if you have any connection there at all it's a wild place i love it me too and it's beautiful i haven't felt pressure doing anything for a long time but i can't oversell i worship this author as a kid i was a little directionless and i found his books when i was like 14 or 15 my cousin's

My family used to make me go fishing with them just so they didn't have to deal with the kids when we were in Florida on the St. Johns. I hated fishing, so I'd always take a book. My cousins called me college, and I would be like, "I don't think you get to call me college because I'm the only one you've seen read a fucking book." There's a lot of steps between. But there's like a direct line between Carl's crazy satires and death and shoot-'em-ups and surreal situations and all the storytelling I've done.

And he doesn't like Hollywood because the first time he turned one of his books into a movie is a movie called Striptease. Oh. What was the famous screenwriter who did it? Andrew Bergman. The guy that wrote Fletch. The guy that wrote Honeymoon in Vegas. One of the writers of Blazing Saddles. I thought it was that Esther Hauser guy. Joe Esther Hauser's Showgirls. Showgirls. Striptease. Striptease was the movie. Demi Moore. Yes. Carl's like, it was a great screenplay. In the 11th hour, they made it about a different character and it wasn't my book. And then he got disenchanted with Hollywood. I went to Florida.

I drank with the dude. I convinced him that I wouldn't shit all over his story. And so he let us do this. How's he feeling about it? He's so happy, dude. He is a 71 year old bouncing around. He is a guy that we all aspire to be. He was a award-winning journalist at the Miami Herald for years. He's got 20 bestsellers. His brother, unfortunately, was one of three reporters at that Washington paper assassinated by that Trump crazy about four years ago. So he was kind of looking after his brother's family and stuff too. But Carl is an

All-time great dude. Rolls with Jimmy Buffett. Reminds me of Elmore Leonard. So part of the fun was he said, you had to shoot it in Florida. It has to be authentic, crazy Florida because all his shit is based on real stuff. So one of the best creative experiences of my life. To have like an idol that turns out to be a good dude that you hopefully don't let down. It's been awesome.

Oh, yeah. You've got to read his books. If you haven't read one of his books... Oh, if I got to somehow hang out with Bukowski, I can only imagine. You're bringing something of his to life that you already loved and he's happy with it? Oh, my God. He trusts you with it. Imagine going to an author and going like, hey, I love this book. Can I put like four chapters in the middle and then put it on television? You know? And if they don't say no fucking way, it's insane. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, I forgot to ask this. I have not chased any awards. I've never had a fantasy that I would ever win any awards, but I have been joking now for seven years. I'm kind of serious about you want a Peabody for scrubs. How does one that feels like an award I could win, but I'm not even sure how or why you win one. I don't know how it works. By the way, I am so disingenuous because I used to shit on awards and make jokes like, hey, everybody, these are so important.

Let's everybody just remember. Right, right, right. And then I won a couple and I'm like, all right, they're kind of fun. I'm not above them or judgmental. I just am realistic about my odds of having won one. I just never saw it coming. Me neither. The weird thing about the Peabody Awards and Scrubs that has followed me around life-wise and it matters to me is it was embraced by the medical community that show on a level that no one expected.

So the reason it won a Peabody award was Google most realistic medical show of all time. And for whatever reason, every single physician picks scrubs. You're beating ER and fucking graze. Wow. And the reason is all the stories in scrubs, especially the first four years, my best friend in college, everybody calls him real now because his name's JD was an absolute fuck up. We were in the same fraternity. We misbehaved so much that when he decided he wanted to be a doctor,

after we went to college he had to go back to undergraduate school again i know it's just all bad now he's a cardiologist and a heart surgeon out here but the whole pitch of that show was for me to go my worst nightmare would be waking up in the emergency room and seeing that fuck up going hey you're gonna be fine i'd be like no and i stole his life we're still so tight and he was the medical advisor on the show okay and so all those stories were real and for whatever reason and

That world of dealing with death and having crazy mentors and the nurses being smart, it just resonated. And that's how it kind of got to the Peabody's because it became a dialogue in the medical community about how the show, even though it had fantasies, how medicine was finally being represented in a real way. We need an expert consultant. To get us a Peabody. I think I found out what we need. To me, it's like a

Pulitzer. Very prestigious. I know This American Life has many of them. Yeah, that's what I mean. Alright, we'll work on it. Are you friends with anyone at the Peabody Association? No, I didn't make any connections. Peabody strings? All I remember about the Peabody's is there's a big awards ceremony in New York and I'd never won anything and I went, my wife had flown in to watch and I gave my thing and I didn't thank my wife. I was backstage. I was just weighing how much trouble I'd get in with my wife versus how annoyed they'd be at me because it was like a tape show for PBS or whatever the fuck it was. So I just...

went by the security guys and walked back out onto stage while Bob Costas was setting up another thing. And they wouldn't mic me. And I literally just shouted it. I'm like, it's my fault. I forgot to thank my wife. I'm just going to do that really quick. And to his credit, he was like, that needed to be said. Bill Harts needed to thank his wife. I just went backstage. I think you chose correctly. That was probably smart. Okay. So you felt the pressure of the source material, which makes sense. Did you also feel any Vince pressure?

No, you know, it was weird. What I liked about it, I could improv a scene with you right now as Vince. So for me, the new thing about streaming television, which is funky is as you get to cast people that you admire and you know their work, it's like having the answer key. So I knew I could write him funny. I guess the only question I had would be, I wanted them to do kind of a mature, older version of the old Vince. And he hadn't been doing that a lot lately.

Yeah, yeah. And he was super game. It's funny too, because that's his career, which is interesting. He's done this cycle before. He's like, we've fallen in love with him in Swingers. Then he goes and does Clay Pigeons and a bunch of dramas. And then the studio has to be convinced for old school that he's funny. Todd Phillips has to go convince people he's funny. And then you're like, oh, right, he's the funniest. Now I remember. He's the funniest in the world, nonchalant. Yeah. And then, you know, has a whole string of that. And then for a while, he's doing dramas all over again. And then now it's like, oh, right, yeah.

He's impossibly funny. The new thing for me that I find so joyful and takes the pressure off, the old TV model that we all lived in, you would write something and then you go try to discover actors and actresses. And then, yeah, hope you get lucky, change the stuff to suit them. And now I know how Harrison Ford sounds. It's insane working with him.

But it was so much easier to write. And you know what Siegel can do. Yeah. By the way, I'd been an extra in Jason's life, as I'm sure you had been, a thousand times. So the second you can hear someone's rhythms and the way they talk, it takes so much pressure off. That was also a bad issue of mine. Even when I was trying to be a stand-up, I would mimic...

I love some, I used to love this comic named Brian Regan. Oh, I loved him. But his inflection was so specific because he did this bit of like, you know, that feeling in junior high school and you've completely forgot you had a project due and your head would shoot up off the pillow and you go, oh no, because that was, and I would start talking like that. So, oh no, I've had six weeks to do this. I've done nothing. And,

And so mimicking a voice or vocal patterns, I mean, that's why it'd be fun to write for you or to write for Conan is people that I've loved a long time and I can still access to them and hear them. I want to try and jam both you guys into something. Okay. Bring me out of retirement. Well, you got to come die on a Carl Hiaasen thing gloriously. Oh, oh, oh. Everybody gets killed on him. Zach was in the episode I saw last night. He's fucking good. He's...

- Tremendous. It might be my favorite, I've seen him. - He's been through some shit, by the way, in real life. - He looks incredible. He's so good. - His age, I think people forgot, I don't want this to sound in any way condescending. I think it's very easy because of what you do or because of what Zach does for people to forget how talented you are

doing the other thing. I'm happy to hear that. I'm not trying to blow smoke. You knew that I was a fan. Yeah, you were going to cast me in your movie. Yeah, so for Zach, especially with some young writers on that show, to go, no, dude, this kid can actually act and he's actually funny. By the way, there's an episode that comes out tomorrow. It's a flashback episode. It's so tragic for him. He's got a compelling story going. He's so good at it. The other person that reminds me of the comedic style that we like and whose voice is easy, if you don't know her, you guys should both find Meredith Hagner. She's so good and so unpredictable.

That you have to pay attention and you have to click into like, I'm about to talk to a girl at a bar I think I'm in love with mode. Hyperdrive. It's almost condescending to say it to her, but she does a female version of what Vince used to do at that age. She never says the same thing twice. There's a show called Search Party. She's incredible. She was so, so good on it. And she's so quick. The only thing that freaks me out is you guys know her mother-in-law is, right? Yeah. Yeah.

have Goldie. And when you see them next to each other. She's very young Goldie. It's a comedic thing. Especially in this, I said out loud to Kristen, I said, oh my God, did Wyatt marry his mother? Look at this. Yeah. She's incredible. I know you don't miss the grind. When you look at stuff like this, I'm just curious because you know you can do it and you do it all the time still here. Do you miss being dropped into a world and just getting to play comedically like that? I miss that moment and I don't miss anything that surrounds it. I don't

I don't miss the email from the second AD asking me to go to a wardrobe fitting at Paramount on a day. I don't miss negotiating over a call time. There's so much sausage before you get to be in a scene with Vince Vaughn. And my life is so good here and so rewarding. So it's interesting. It's like, yeah, I get that itch probably last night watching Zach. I'm like, oh yeah, there's Zach. He's doing a fucking great job. Could I have done that part? I'll just get a little curious. Not a huge drive. I'll tell you the one thing I considered and it didn't end up turning out. I would have done it, but they had called and asked

if I was available for an episode of Righteous Gemstone, the new season. And that show for me is the show. And notoriously good guys. Yes. From what everybody says. I don't know them very well. I don't know Danny that well. I know Adam a little bit. All princes, yeah, doing their own little thing. You just made me laugh because it made me think one of the things that fell in love with my wife, because she's like you. So I've dragged her back into acting. And now people are like, oh, she only acts on your shows. I'm like, yeah, because Zach Braff got to one of my shows once he was directing and he goes...

I just read that your wife is not allowed to be called before 10 in the morning. I'm like, yeah, good luck, dude. Enjoy, enjoy. But you'll get the best version of her when she arrives. The funniest version of that is way back in the days of CSI Miami, which they shot here, I think. I just fell in love with my wife because they asked her to do a guest spot on that. She's like, you know what? I haven't worked in a second. I'm going to go do it.

And they're like, we need you to come down to Manhattan beach for a wardrobe fitting at four on a Friday. And she goes four on a Friday. It's going to be a clusterfuck getting there. I'm listening to her on the phone where you are. And the AD goes, well, it's the only time the wardrobe person's available. So we're going to need you here at four. And my wife just goes, oh, then I quit. Yeah.

And there's just a pause. And the guy's like, wait, what? She's like, it's no big deal. I just quit then. I hope I'm hurting one's feelings. I know it's supposed to shoot Tuesday. You guys will figure something out, but I quit. Somehow clothes could be there. Yeah, it was a hard cut to people driving to the house next Saturday going, here's your outfit.

Well, Bill, this was even better than I was expecting. And I thought it was going to be great. So kind of you guys. I'm not good at this. Pete, you said too many nice things. My wife said I have to look people in the eyes and say thank you when they say nice things. Because I usually come off as standoffish and an asshole because I look at my feet and go, thanks. You know what I mean? It's hard. You've both been very kind. I appreciate it. Work in progress learning to take a compliment on this end as well. It's very hard. I can relate. I love compliments. Do you? I'll take them all. What do you need? What do you need? I want to hear them all. What do you need at the end? No, I'm kidding.

Well, tell them about the birthday present that Kristen got you. Oh, she got... Forever immortalized now. She got me a piece of art. I wish I knew the artist. We'll say it in the fact check. And it says, sorry, I have great tits and correct opinions. And it's dead accurate.

Dead accurate. Pretty great present, right? Could not have a better present. That's pretty solid. That's tombstone material. It is, it is. It might be on the tombstone. It should. Well, Bill, I adore you. I'm so glad that we had an excuse to do this and I hope we do it again. What will be probably your fourth enormous hit on Apple TV shortly, I'm sure, at the rate you're going. Congrats on everything. I'm so happy for you. Thank you so much. Congrats to you guys. You guys are very good at it. Thank you. Thank you for having me. All right. Be well. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert.

If you dare. Now at T-Mobile, get four 5G phones on us in four lines for $25 a line per month when you switch with eligible trade-ins. All on America's largest 5G network.

Next up is the fact check. I don't even care about facts. I just want to get into your pants. One of these coasters might work. Hold it up.

I must increase my bust. Must you? Well, that's what I was doing, I guess, technically. You were today. You were doing tries for the guys. I did do that. I don't mean curls for the girls. What were you doing? I wasn't increasing my bust. It wasn't a chest day. Although there was a little bit of chest activity in one of the other exercises. I'm still catching my breath, as you can hear. Yeah. Apologies to the listener. Even more so to the viewer, because I'm in my workout gear.

Straight out of the gym. Zaddy knee brace check. You know, embarrassingly, I've been doing that exercise that I saw Lenny Kravitz do. What does he do? I don't know about this. Oh, well, first of all, he does it in leather pants with no shirt, which is so cool. I guess I'm inching towards that. That's probably the finish line. Do it in leather pants. Okay. But you are on a decline bench. Okay. Right? So you're laying and then you have the 45 pound bar. Then you have some weight.

And then you do a sit up on the incline. And at the top, you go full extension. Then you come all the way down. Oh, geez. So it's this inverted sit up, but with the bar and the... That sounds hard. They're hard. Yeah. But they're starting to make my obliques pop. Yeah.

And that's a fun development. That's fun for you? Big time. Do you like obliques? I love them. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Yeah, and in fact, let's see if we agree on this. I think guys are like, I got my chest huge. Right? Yeah. And my biceps. They want to increase their bust. But I think women are like, oh yeah, those obliques sign me up. For me, yes. This enormous chest, what are you going to do, push a car up a hill? Yeah, hot take for me, a huge chest is hard to hug. Hmm.

I like hugs. Right. Yes, certainly. There's a lot of these gentlemen. You couldn't wrap your arms around, right? Some of these Mr. Olympians, if you reach your full arms out, it probably would just get to the sides of their body. Yeah, it'd be like this.

Yeah, that's roughly the size that Phil Heath's back was when he was here. The rock hard chest. Yeah. Sometimes. Go ahead. I mean, everyone who has ever hugged you gives you a compliment on your hug. You are very good at hugging. I'm a very intentional hugger.

Yeah, you give great hugs. Well, thank you so much. But sometimes when we hug now, if you're not being intentional, I like ricochet off. Oh, into the brick shithouse? Tight. Well, that's not great news. And not to throw him under the bus, but Charlie too. Look, there's a downside to being Perfect 10 Charlie. Yeah. And that might be the hugs might be a little bit painful. But I bet there's a lot of folks that are like, sign me up for that Perfect 10 Charlie page. Of course they are.

they are. But at any rate... Yes, they should. Okay, continuing on with my boring exercise...

Box jumps. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Did those. Okay. Did deadlifts. Okay. Did pull-ups. Mm-hmm. And that was it. I ran out of time, ran directly here, as you can see. Yeah. And I'm on my short, short, short. I wonder when I start doing strength training if I'm going to come in and want to talk about this kind of thing. I hope so. And in fact, goodbye to every other topic. If you're super into it. Oh, no.

I know. Like, I don't think he'd mind me outing him, but Mark Rober, who we love, he called me the other day or he texted me and said, can I ask you about some workout stuff? Four minutes, he said. Yeah. And I was like, oh yeah, of course. So we hopped on the phone, 34 minutes. Wow. We just couldn't stop talking about it. Wow. Yeah. Because he's on a new routine. Yeah, he's looking to...

- Well, tell him about the hugs. Tell him when he's given up. It's only ethical. - I'm not going back. That one will be four minutes. That one will come in under. - Pass the phone over to me. I'll elongate that. - Yeah, I wonder which ones you're gonna love and hate the most. - Me too. I wonder. - Become a little gym rat. That's gonna be great.

I'm open to it. Change is in the air. I'm open to it. But I like my identity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't have to let the important parts go. Yeah, that's true. But your identity isn't like, I'm under-muscled. That's me. No, it's not. Right?

In fact, I lived a long time on this earth in tip-top shape. Right. Premium peak. That was how I started my journey. I came out the womb in tip-top shape. Elite muscle mass. But I do have a grievance to air. On your birthday, strong.

stories, footage surfaced of you in cheer practice. I know. And you take us right to the moment the dude's about to throw you in the air. And I'm like, who at, what is this section? No, you see me, you see me land. No, you don't even go up. It's just like you guys all milling about and this guy's going like this. And then you're, and then all of a sudden you go like this, like you're ready to take, and then he's about to grab you. And then boom, we're onto the next clip. Oh my God. I have to get up. Oh, here it is.

I have to sit down. Okay. I mean, I showed, we were at the party still, so I showed Ryan because, you know, he understands cheerleading. Is it possible that the clip you put into stories, because stories are only 15 seconds long or whatever they are, it cut off right at the money shot? There is a chance, absolutely. Yeah, I think that's what happened. It was her story that I reposted. And who's her? Her can't talk because her is a dog. Oh.

My coach, Kelly. Okay, Kelly did. Do you know what? Really quick. Rob? Yes? Like, we have this capability at this point. Oh, to throw it? Like, you could be playing this on this TV. Holy shit. What the fuck else is this thing here for other than to see Monica get caught by the poontang? It can be done. It's not all. We should do it so when we watch YouTube clips and stuff. Yeah.

Give me a lot more dynamic. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay. Okay, so you're right about the story, but what you're supposed to do is, now it's gone because it was a story. Yeah. But you click on the actual video and then you can see the whole video. Boy, I don't know about that part. Wow. I just taught you something huge. I don't know about that. Okay, another reason I was rushed-

And so a lot of people are going like, how could you have neglected your buys and tries? Because I've only listed... People are really worried. I know. Probably like biting their fingernails. And it's because...

I took the brain test today. Have you done yours? Not yet. I think it's called a cognitive test. It is. Dr. Richard Isaacson. I've never been a part of anything more comprehensive than this. I'm both really grateful. And also, this is nuts. At some point, I'm like, I don't know if I care this much about my health. I know in retrospect, I'll be really happy I did it. Yes. What did you tell me about? Wait, should I not know? No, there's no way to cheat.

Okay. It's mostly fun. Okay. But it is taxing. Like, she read a list of like...

20 words just in a row. Okay. I still have some of it. You do? Yeah. So don't tell me. It's not gonna, you're not gonna hold on to it. It is gonna be the same because I just asked Kristen who already did it as well. So desk, shoe, bird, stove, mountain, right? Those are some of the words. So it's just this long list of words. Okay. And then she goes, okay, repeat as many of the words back to me as you can.

Then you do a lot of other tests. Time goes on. An hour and 20 minutes. Uh-huh. And then it's like, read me the, you know, how many can you get off the list? Oh, and do you have to do it in order? No. Okay. Although I bet you'll inevitably start memorizing it that way. Yeah. Yeah. Glasses, gun, fist, cloud, towel. Right? Wow. Then there's like shapes.

You see a ton of shapes in order. They're just flashing on the screen for a second. Yeah. And then go to this. And you don't recognize these symbols. They're completely made up, right? It's not like you're like, oh, that's the blue cross and blue, you know. And then they'll put two symbols up and go, which one was in the set? Yeah.

You gotta click, right? Ooh. So that's fun. Yeah. You get told a story at the beginning and then you have to repeat as much of the story as you can. Oh my God. At a couple different times. Okay. That thing you've already done in your life where it spells green, but the green is blue. Yeah. And then it spells green, but it's red.

You have to say the color. Yeah. They're fun, but you get like mentally exhausted from it. I bet. Oh, I know the one that was most exhausting is like say as many words starting with F as you can think of in 60 seconds. Whoa.

Then as many words. Can you say curse words? Sure. You can't say proper nouns. You can't say like gives, give, gives. You can't add S's and shift to things, right? I think the naming the many words that you can off of a letter was the one where at the end of the 60 seconds, I was like, oh, oh, you know. Wow.

But I was thinking a couple different things. Okay. I think improv training has to be a huge. Benefit. Yes. Yeah. Right? You and I should have a big advantage. Because of the hyper listening, I think maybe. When you're saying the story and stuff, I feel like that's a big gain. Well, did you guys ever play this improv game where it's like I say an object, you have to say another one, but it cannot be related? No.

So you go coffee. I go styrofoam. You go rainy. But styrofoam's kind of related to coffee. Styrofoam cup. Styrofoam cup. It's like an A to B. Or it's like an A to G. Bookshelf. Styrofoam. Now you're going to say, well, you could make a bookshelf out of styrofoam. You could.

It'd be a very flimsy one. It wouldn't hold any books. But I think the practice of rejecting your brain's desire to get stuck on something is something you can practice. Yeah, that's true. Like non sequitur game, I guess it is. Did you have one like that? I'm sure we did. I feel like the ones I remember the most were more...

Like, I love mind meld. Remind me how that one goes. Mind meld is on three, we say, we both say a word. And then on the second round on three, we try to find the word that meets in the middle of that word, basically. And get the same one. Should we try it? Absolutely. Okay, ready? One, two, three, cloud. Cloud and bagel. Okay, ready? Yeah. One, two, three, donut. Donut.

Circle and... One, two, three, sugar. Manhole cover. Oh, no. See, this is what happens. You said sugar? Yeah, sugar and manhole cover. One, two, three, spill. One, two, three, milk. One, two, three, breast. Oh, no.

Wait, what was it? It was... Breast and blood. Breast and blood. One, two, three. Can we repeat? One, two, three babies. Babies and stab. Babies and stab.

One, two, three, infant death syndrome. I know I was. I was. I was. You should have gone with your heart. I know, but it felt like I couldn't. I know, but everything's safe in a game. God, I was. Except for racial slurs. I was going to say SIDS. Yeah. And I couldn't think of the acronyms. We did get it. Oh, we got it. That was a dark one. I know. They don't always go that dark. They normally don't. Improv is fun. It is. I wish there was a way to just do it for fun. I don't think. I'm so rusty. In a classroom.

You could take classes. I don't want to take classes. I just want to go do it. Yeah. In a room, though.

You don't want to be on the stage. Well, I did do that charity improv show. Yeah. With like all the heavyweights. They haven't left their foot off the gas in 25 years. Yeah, they're still doing it. And I was pretty intimidated. But I also was, I felt pretty good. Good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because I was quite nervous. Yeah. I was like, I'm just not going to tap in much. I'm going to be there. My job is just to be there and be on the invitation. Yeah. And of course, you know me. You can't help it. I couldn't stay out of it.

Yes, I am. Oh, that reminds me. We've been in a really fun routine at bedtime. I lay in the middle of Delta and Lincoln and Delta has this set of dolls. It's a black woman, two white children. Uh-huh.

And a white woman and a black child. Okay. And so I inherited this story, which is kind of fun because it's like an improv suggestion. Yeah. So Delta explained to me that the black woman adopted these two white children. Okay. But then the third is her biological. Got it. And then the white woman's just like, I guess she is a yoga instructor. She's on the periphery. I can't figure out how she...

And so I do all the voices in the the boy is Mark or Drew, depending on the night. OK. And then Paisley and Lily. Oh. And the yoga woman's name is Whitney. That's what I said. Sounds like Whitey. Oh, yeah. And then I decided it was Whitney. Whitey is her name. I inherited the names. You did. OK. In the dynamics. OK, OK, OK. Biological child. Sure. Adopted. Do you think mom and Whitney are in a relationship? No.

No, I think mom thinks Whitney's nuts because Whitney's solution to everything is yoga. And she's doing yoga poses that are very inappropriate. I'm not controlling Whitney Whitey. Okay. Lincoln's in charge of Whitney Whitey. She wants everyone to get in the crab position and all this stuff. Oh my, okay. And then Mark hyperextended his groin trying to participate last night. And he was sent to the vet.

Instead of a doctor. Okay. Anyways, I do two of the voices of the four and then the girls pick one character. And these have been going on for like 45 minutes to an hour before bed. It's so fun. And the girls, not to brag, but the girls are like, dad, you're so good at that game. And I'm like, girls, this is improv. But anyways, it's a great...

Way to teach them yes and. Like everything's cool, but when they deny, I bust their ass. Yeah, good. I hold it to fucking fire. Yeah. There's no denying. I say you got a nice stove top hat on. You do. Stove top hat on. Yep. You got to tell me where you got it. Yeah, exactly. I feel like I might be starting to blueprint their brain to get ready for it. I like that. Oh, but I can do it forever. Like I look forward to it. I'm sure. That sounds so fun. Oh, it's so fun.

Mark, Mark, stop hyperextending your groin. You're going to end up at the doctor, Mark. Mark talks like this. Mom, I can totally handle it. Wow. Yeah. He's like a surfer a little bit. And Lily's like, I'm the firstborn. Even though you're biological, I was here first. She's a brat. Is she based off me? No, but now that you point out the similarities. Yeah.

Is that what you said a lot to Neil? I was here first. I was here first. No, actually, that was never one of my, that's way too pedestrian. First come, first serve. I was here first, Neil. No, it'd be like, oh, no, that's wrong. First is the worst, second is the best. But that doesn't work for me. That works for him. Do you think second is first to last or some shit? What's the things? It's first is the worst, second is the best, third is the one with the treasure chest. Wait, what does that mean? That's what it means. Wait.

There is no one with a treasure chest? Yeah. It's something a second child says, or if you're in second place. Okay, great. You would say. But what does a treasure chest mean? It's just like. I'm going to a dirty place. Right. I mean. Like a carpenter's dream or a pirate's dream. Wait, carpenter's dream. Flat as a board, easy to nail. But that's the opposite of a treasure chest. A treasure chest is very well endowed. I know. I'm just saying it makes me think of those things. I see. Sunken chest, lots of booty. Okay. Okay.

I didn't make these up and I don't condone them. I just know them. You know them. I think it's just like giving third something cool. Consolation prize. It's a way, you know what? It's a way to take down number one as we love to do. Yeah, yeah. As we love, love to do in this world. We do. Last night-

I worked late to late and then I thought, you know, I'm going to watch something. I haven't watched anything in a while because I've been tired. Please say you started Chimp Crazy. I did not start Chimp Crazy yet.

You are so insolent. I am not. Just hold your little horse, okay? Hold my sunken chest. You know, I have some connections in this life. In show business? Yeah, in this biz. And I got my hands on Nobody Wants This, Kristen and Adam's show. Oh, that came your way early. I got my grubby hands on it. And?

I watched seven episodes. No way. Did you tell her that? I mean, I started this again. This is like only murders in the building or I start it late and then I just keep going and going and going. So I couldn't keep texting her because it was the middle of the night. This is an Easter egg for an upcoming episode. Yeah. And that was out last week. Oh,

Yeah, an upcoming episode where Kristen says that this character is a cool girl. Yeah. And I do know behind the scenes, as you do too, that that was a thing for her. Like she... Everyone wants to try to be the cool girl. Everyone wants to be the cool girl. And she, I think...

That was important to her to pull off. Yeah. And she really fucking pulled it off. Yeah, yeah. She's so cool in it. And I did text her and tell her that. Oh, she's going to be so happy. She is...

So good. It's like- Frustrating? A little. Sure. It's a little frustrating where I just, every time, every time, every time I see her do anything on camera, it's just- She was born to- She's perfect. She's perfect. Flawless, yeah. There really is no one better. It's really something. I know. There is an arc. I think for her, there were some people-

in front of her that seemed insurmountable. And one I'll say, because we both admire her so much, Reese Witherspoon. Yeah. Because she just does all the things. She's so talented. She is. They're roughly the same mini powerful bond. Yeah. And they both run businesses. Yeah. And she is such a peer to her now. Yeah. I think Kristen is tricky because...

You know, she's never done like a black swan. You know, she's never put herself really in a position where the Academy is looking at her or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She could. She for sure could. And she, I think that's why it's so impressive. Almost overlooked. I mean, everyone knows she's good, but it's when you, obviously when you know about acting and you watch her, it is...

so impressive it is so razor sharp kristen has achieved that right like you can just put her in something and by god it'll work i know but i i yes but i think that was always the case i i don't think you don't think he's gotten better and better i maybe not i mean veronica mars that's why when i watch her early early days you can tell it's like oh this person is

knows how to do this in such a deep, innate way that doesn't seem learned. You're right. I don't think she got better in that she wasn't already great and perfect. It's that...

she just over time gets to show you more and more things she can do, which then cumulatively it gets more and more impressive in my opinion. So it's like, that's a really great sign. I'm glad that you wanted to watch seven in a row. I did. But yeah, their, their chemistry is like, forget it. Right.

So good. Yeah. It is so hot. Yeah. And so good. It's driving the whole thing. Great banter. Great, great banter. He's so fucking charming and dreamy, isn't he? He is. He is. He is. And then it made me start making – it started to make me think about chemistry. Uh-huh. Chemistry, as we say in the business. And as we say in science. Chemistry is such a weird thing.

Because not just chemistry on screen, but chemistry in life. Do you think chemistry is required for love? No. I've observed lots of people in love who really kind of don't have chemistry. Yeah. You know? I know. There's a lot of people that, and I'm going to just be very broad, but in my experience, it's like,

I've seen some intellectuals together where it's like they're both so unique and idiosyncratic. And they work together as a team. Yeah. Like they're this intriguing partnership for talking and stuff. But it's like there's no like sparks flying out of their eyes. Right, right. Yeah, I definitely think.

And I think we talked about it in the upcoming episode that aired last week that it's not predictable. So it's like it has nothing to do with whether you get along with somebody or you like them greatly. Yeah. Many of couples, famous Hollywood couples will get on screen together and there's nothing there. Right. Or, you know, allegedly and famously when we interview either of these two people, maybe they'll correct us like another future episode that aired last month.

And there's, you know, allegedly Clooney and J-Lo could not stand each other. Right. And I don't know that I've ever seen better chemistry than in Out of Sight between those two. I wonder what Sapolsky would say about chemistry. Me too. And how are we defining it, I guess, because chemistry on screen, I want to pivot it more to life, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Because that's more...

applicable to everyone yeah approachable relatable r words go uh right um ring oh my god how fast do i need as many as you can get in 60 seconds uh roly poly does that count yeah um oh my god i'm so scared oh my god did i give you a score no i wish i had you know i'm so competitive righteous good that's three throughout this episode

Ring around the rosy. That should count for multiple. I figured out a trick and I don't know if I should give it to you or not. Ooh. By the way, it's- Don't give it to me. Also, you don't want to cheat on it because the whole point of this test is a baseline. So if you take it and-

two years or whatever it is. Yeah. And you don't have a cheat. It's going to look like you're in a nosedive cognitively. Exactly. So. I don't want to know the cheat. Okay. But after you do it, I'll. Okay. Rob, have you done yours? Nope. Okay. I have not. No spoilers until we've both done it. Okay. Anyway. Chemistry. So chemistry, you know, this is one of those fun,

things that therapists will tell you sometimes that you're looking for the spark or the butterflies or the, which that to me is chemistry. Yeah. Like electricity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But often those are not really the people you're supposed to be with. Yeah. But I've just had the other one that I actually think is kind of

It's hard to say. It's so pointless to say. I'm inclined to say it's the kind that you should maybe resist. And I'm saying that because those relationships didn't work out. But at the same time, one was five years and one was nine years. Those are huge wins. Yeah. So I can't really chalk those up to I shouldn't follow that path.

Tidal wave of smacked in the face, love at first sight. Yeah. Because those are great relationships, five and nine. But what was it about that? Like, was it banter or was it just like? Physical, but very specific physical. Like Carrie, I can see in my mind perfectly that.

Mm-hmm.

With the mininess and the way too big a hair. Yeah. And the little felt pants. Like something happened where I was just like, oh my God. And you hadn't met her yet? No. Wow. I mean, I vaguely knew that she went to my school and she was a pair of twins. Right. So that's going to get you a little tense. Sure. I thought she was like a hippie. Sure. Wasn't my scene hippies? Yeah. Maybe, you know, I just was vaguely aware. Yeah. But all of a sudden I was just like, oh.

Oh, Lord, I am now going to do everything I can that leads to me being with her. Wow. And same with Brie. And you know what I did? I found out what class she was in. Mm-hmm.

And in the middle of the day, on a Monday, that was like a Saturday I saw her. I went into her class in the very middle of class. And I said, I'm so sorry. I have a message from the office for Carrie. And I walked to her desk and gave her a piece of paper and said, your boyfriend's number is 310-685-blah, blah, blah. Smooth. Very smooth move.

When you watch stuff like that, like when you watch the scenes between Adam and Kristen and when you watch Rom, I mean, this is,

This is why part of why some people think romantic comedies are problematic is because it is ingraining that that is the thing to chase. Love at first sight. Love at first sight and this like, will they won't, you know, this like these games. Yeah, games. They're so fun. Games are fun. We love games. We love mind melds. Monopoly. Spades. Chess. Oh, there's many games you can listen. 60 seconds. Go, go, go. Parcheesis. Candylander. Twisters.

Uno. Rally. That's back to our words. What if they would have said, name as many games as you can in 60 seconds? I mean, that's as legit as any other question. That was an improv. It was called like Thunderstruck or something. Oh, ACDC. Yeah. Thunderstruck? And then everyone would like, maybe it wasn't Thunderstruck. Thunderdome. Thunderdome. Yes. And two people would enter the Thunderdome and you'd have to go back. We don't know.

another hero we don't need another all we wanted was beyond the thunderdome watch this one oh my god sorry okay okay moving on got to do okay oh my god dax come back come back baby come back

Any kind of fool could see. All right, Thunderdome. You would play Thunderdome. Yeah, you would go in and you'd go back and forth on a theme or a genre or whatever. And you'd go. Yeah, you would. You'd do like some sort of chanting. Anyway, yeah, chemistry. It's interesting. Yeah, yeah. So what I guess was. Oh, geez.

All right. What if that's something that people like? What if we accidentally revealed that we were insanely clumsy? Because no one would have known on audio, right? Yeah. But what if I was like, what episode is this? Oh my, Jennifer, you know, like we were largely free to be as clumsy. I just thought that because you clanked your computer. I did. I'm a little clumsy. Moderately. Yeah, I am. Also period. Period.

It's on its way out. Okay, it's waning. Yeah. Just a couple remnant flies here and there. Yeah, some hanging around. Okay, Jon Stewart's real name is Jon Lebowitz. I just glanced at your knees. So that's another thing that could get caught on camera now. Okay. I said just a few flies, just some remnants. And then I, even though I know that's a joke. You want, you look for flies? I glanced at your legs to see if there's any flies.

And now I just spit across the room at you when I go, fuck, this is going to show me how to show business. Well, I thought you retired anyway. Yeah, I did. Except for now I want to come back. I'm monkey. Bad monkey. Bad monkey. Ding, ding, ding.

Is this for Bill? Yeah. Oh, perfect. Wasn't he fun? So fun. Love him. I've always loved him from afar. Yeah. He's your kind of guy. And I love Scrubs so much. You loved. I loved it. When I was hearing you talk to him about it, I felt like that was a reveal for me. I loved it. Cal and I. Borderline pop out. Really? Yeah. I don't think you've ever told me that. No. Remember?

we definitely talked about it because when we had Zach on, that's the original Monica Loves Boys because there's a picture of me looking at Zach and I look very giddy. Ah.

And Rob got the picture. That's the original. That's how that started. Oh, wow. It was just really early on. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, wow. But I loved that show. Callie and I watched it in college religiously and we were obsessed with it. And it was our show. The show...

was very heartfelt, but at that time, right up my alley of comedy, very absurd. I have never watched it. Oh, yeah. Other than my uncle, Rob, shout out Robbie, called my mother and said, Dax is on a new show. It's called Scrubs. He didn't tell anyone. No.

And then I found it just to see like, and I was like, it's, oh my God, it's eerie. Yeah, it is. Like, I don't like the feeling of. That's so funny that, because you feel, you feel like you're too unique. I don't know what it is. It's weird to see yourself in a show you didn't film. Well, sure. But you know it's not you. But then I start, it starts to fuck with your identity a little bit. I'm like, oh, all this stuff that I think is so unique to me is,

is kind of happening right here. Someone else is doing it. I don't really need to know about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I could watch it now. In fact, I'm going to do that. It's a great show. Maybe the kids would probably like it. I mean, I haven't seen it in so long. I'm sure, I mean, at this point, it's a while. It's old. So,

So I wonder how it holds up. But the kids are all about these. I told you they binged Brooklyn Nine-Nine and now they're on their second viewing of it. Yeah, but Brooklyn Nine-Nine is. Current. Yeah, yeah. Very current. It's a lovely show. And also I didn't realize he did Clone High because Callie was obsessed with Clone High. She was. She's in the Bill Lawrence game. Does she know she's. I don't know if she knows. All in. I don't think she knows. That builds her religion.

Well, thanks. I have to let her know. Okay. So he said that if you type in most realistic medical show of all time, scrubs will come up. I did do that. It did. It did. Well, it's a lot of people say ER and scrubs. Okay, great. But it's in there. John Wells and Bill. And they both teach. John and Bill. That's interesting. Remember he was saying John Wells teaches. No, Orson Wells. No, no. John Wells teaches a show running workshop. Oh.

I thought he said something. And so does Bill. Yeah, he teaches disorganized chaos. And John Wells is ER. Right. I didn't realize this. So it's kind of funny that they both are teaching. That is funny. And they're tied for the most accurate medical show. He wrote the one with the candy hearts, that Friends episode. Did you remember it? Yes, I did. And I really...

I kept quiet about my level of knowledge and fandom. Oh, I interpreted your quietness is like, oh no, this is one of the only episodes Monica didn't like. Oh,

No, it's great. It's a great episode. It's a great episode. I'll read you a little clip. It's Valentine's Day, and out on his first date in nine years, Ross meets up with his ex-wife. Meanwhile, Monica, Phoebe, and Rachel rebel against the spirit of the day by burning mementos of past relationships. Okay, the Will and Grace episode of Revisionist History is when Will met Grace. Mm-hmm.

So you can find that on Pushkin. You can probably find that on everywhere you get your podcasts. I'm going to send that to Bill because I bet he'll have forgotten. And I bet he would love that episode. Yeah. And then it was a nice little blast from the past when you brought up Brian Regan. Because Callie and I also liked Brian Regan. You did. Yeah. Wow. I wanted to do one more thing. I want to play...

It's just his daughter's song. Oh, it is. Oh, I'm glad you're playing this. With Sting? I mean, with... Should I try to find it? No, keep playing that. That's fine. Hold it all in. Try to keep it unspoken. Bite my lips till they're broken. Oh.

Oh, he must ball when he hears this. See if you can find the Paul McCartney one. Yeah, I was looking for...

You got it? Oh, do you know how to use... Have you ever seen a... That's an iPhone, Monica. It's an iPhone 13. No, the speaker's at the bottom. Oh. Yeah, just like... Like this? You know... At the very bottom. There's the speaker. Yeah, that's not going to get flagged. That was her at home a party. Keep on rocking in the free world. That's fun.

Yeah, how cool. What is it like when you're Paul McCartney and everywhere you go, you're just like sprinkling the most memorable experience on people's lives? Like no one meets Paul McCartney and doesn't remember it and doesn't tell everyone. I told it to you in front of Bill, right? Yeah, you've told it before, but you can tell me. Oh, I've already told it before. Yeah, yeah. No, just we were in an elevator at a press junket and Kristen was holding Lincoln and she was like a year and a half old.

And out of nowhere, the doors open on a floor and Paul McCartney stepped into the elevator and he just looked at Lincoln and with the sweetest little cooey face. And he said, let me give you a flower. He was holding the flower and he put it behind her ear. And then the doors open, he got off and we were just like, oh my God, fucking beetle just put a flower behind Lincoln. The flower? Yes, and framed it. Can you? Well, I love Bill. Me too. Yeah. Bonnie, can you turn your mic around? Nope. No.

What's the word for that? Pineapple. Bit gone bad. Yeah, great time with Bill. Super fun. We love Bill. We love a lot of Bills. We do. We have a lot of Bills in our life that we enjoy. Draining Bills. All right, love you. Love you.

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