Armchair Anonymous: Parent's Secret
01:01:33 Share

This episode is brought to you by Mobile One. Behind the scenes, true crime, in-depth interviews, the Mobile One brand knows podcasts are a great escape. But if you're listening to them while you're working, are you really escaping anything? Now imagine listening behind the wheel of your car. No screens, no work, just you, the car, and

And hey, even your favorite podcast. Now that's an escape. Mobile One for the love of driving. Visit loveofdriving.us slash armchair to learn more.

We are supported by Ollie. I love Ollie. I use their sleep gummies. They're so good. I don't sleep well. Yeah, me either. But can I tell you something? They're so good that I look forward to eating them. I know. They're like a treat. They're a treat right before bed. I can't tell you how much I like them. During the back to school season, Ollie's got us covered.

Ollie Sleep Gummies can help the family get the rest they need. Their probiotics can keep gut health in check. And their Hello Happy and Goodbye Stress Gummies can lift the mood. Buy three and get one free with code BUNDLE24 at ollie.com. That's O-L-L-Y dot com.

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Anonymous. We have a fun prompt today. Tell us about a secret your parents kept from you as a kid. Yes, these really run the gambit. There's some serious ones. There's some funny ones. Yes. Yeah, it's good. And there's no pukey stuff.

No. That I recall. Although I often forget. But there is an animal who passes. Okay. But it's not Cory. It's not a dog either. Okay. Or a cat. Or a rabbit. Or a rabbit, yeah. But closest to a rabbit. Yeah. Yeah.

I think rodent deaths, okay? No, people did not like when I was just trying to catch that mouse. Oh, they didn't. Or rat. I don't know if they did, but I assume they didn't. I caught a mouse the other day. You did? In the bus. Again? If I know these mice love the bus, who could blame them? I know. Yeah. They're really smart. Yeah. But then we released it in your backyard, in fact. Oh, no! Yeah, and when I say we, I mean Carly.

Dax! I can't start out with a mouse problem, although it would be ironic. He'll leave. There's nothing to eat over there yet. Oh my God. We're going to start a war with each other. We're going to have a mouse war once I move in. No, I won't be doing it. I'll forbade it. Okay. So please enjoy Parents' Secrets. Hard times come and go. Take them slow. I had them both. But one thing.

You gotta know I'ma keep on shining. Hi. Hi. Deepest apologies. Our previous prompt we were talking to people was stalking. Every one of the stories was like 45 minutes, so we're so sorry we're behind. Holy shit. No, it's okay. And get ready for those. They are... Woo! Yeah, you're gonna want to listen to those at high noon, not at night by yourself. No, God, no. Whoa! Good advice. Today I was at the gym and I was listening to the gym one. Oh! Oh!

On the treadmill laughing. That's one of the best visual stories. It is so funny. And I was like laughing at you laughing, Monica. It was so good. That one really got Monica. It really did. I was crying laughing on the treadmill, but I kept my sweatshirt on because I learned so much from that.

one. Are we calling you Susan? Suzanne. Suzanne. It's spelled wrong, but my mom had a lot going on at the time, which you'll hear in the story. So we forgive her. Okay. And before we get there, even though we're making it for lost time, you have that blurry thing on your background, but what's happening is one of your pink shoes is popping out every now and then. So at first I thought...

Oh, she has like an emoji. Oh, yeah. Yes! I thought, oh, she has like an emoji thing happening that my kids put on when they're talking. And I was like, her children must use this account and they've got the pop-up emojis. Not the case. No, I'm in my closet. Thank you. And I did artfully arrange cute shoes right behind my head. It was the best I could do. But I don't have to unblur, so you can trust me. Okay, great. We call that set decoration in show business. Set decoration, exactly, exactly. Also, I'm not a fan of the set decoration.

Also, I just realized this light in this closet is a motion sensor, so sometimes it just turns off. Okay. Thanks for warning us. I hope Monica doesn't get triggered with a seizure with his pop-out shoes. Oh, my gosh.

I want to double down on your kepper right now. I know a generic brand. Thank you, generic brand. I would feel horrible. Okay, Suzanne, tell us about a secret your parents kept from you. Okay, I'll go through this story kind of chronologically and the reveal comes when I'm an adult. And Monica, just so you know, this is a happy story. Oh, good. You don't have to be worried. I don't know what you've been through today. Oh, too much. My cortisol levels are high. Okay, I think this is a good story.

This will be a happy one. My mom and dad met in the 1960s at work. My mom played the harp and my dad played the clarinet. And they were in the New York freaking Philharmonic. No way. This is beautiful. Growing up, we used to get Christmas cards from Leonard Bernstein. And I am like the biggest family disappointment because I play no instruments. I have very little musical talent. Are you good at math? I'm good at math.

Yeah, because they say classical musicians are really good at math. But I'm not good at classical music. But I can sing, I guess. I mean, I can like rock the karaoke mic, but that's slightly different chromosome, right? Yeah. So they got together. They were in New York City and they were like these cool musicians. And then I was born in 1969 and my sister Lori was born 15 months later. And then my mom and dad got divorced like right after that. So I was a baby. Those kids can ruin a marriage, let's just say. My mom had to quit the

Philharmonic. She and I and Lori took a train from New York City and we moved to Peoria, Illinois. Oh, poor mom. Big change. Yeah, poor mom. But we moved in with our grandparents. They were great. Their names are Jack and Ethel. Jack and Ethel in Peoria had just built their retirement party house. And instead of getting to have their like

Groovy parties, they got two harps in the conversation pit and two toddlers. And we used to scratch our names into the wallpaper. You know, I had like that 3D wallpaper. And I remember writing Suzanne in that wallpaper and like doing striptease Copacabana dances in that conversation pit. They never really got to have a party because we live there our whole childhood. Yeah, it never ends. It doesn't. It was great. I grew up in Peoria in that house with my mom, grandparents and my sister.

And we really never heard from my dad again, although sometimes we would see him because he was still in the New York Philharmonic. So like we would see him on PBS playing the clarinet and my grandma would be like, hey, kids, come in here. Your dad is on TV. But we never saw him again. And really, the only memory I had of him was his shoes.

I told this story to a friend in college and she was like, "You should paint that memory." So I did. And I'll just show you really quick because I still have this painting. So you're a painter, so you are very artsy. I'm not a painter and this is blurry.

Anyway, I don't know what to do with it. Okay, it's some legs and some shoes. Yeah. The visual component of the story didn't pan out, but that's okay. That's okay. Exactly. And also, I realize we are on a podcast, but anyway, just for you. So my sister, Lori, 15 months younger, we were complete opposites. And we used to fight all the time. And it would always come out like, I think you're adopted. And one time, just to get me in trouble, my sister carved the words, Lori.

Lori is a asshole. Onto her own bedroom door. Oh!

Self-aware. I mean, it was totally to frame me. I was getting a spanking. That's very Machiavellian, though. I got to applaud Lori. I didn't even get it. It was so dark. She framed her. I am pretty proud of her. That was a good move. And then when I was growing up, my mom, who was pretty quirky at baseline, did a couple of really weird things that in retrospect were maybe like clues to this secret. So I'll tell you two. I have a sniff of the secret. I know. Do you want to whisper to Monica? No, I don't.

I don't want it. She hates that. She hates that. I know. I learned that today. So weird thing number one. When I was 19, I was living in Peoria, but headed out to a girls weekend in New York City. And my mom was like, hey, while you're in New York, why don't you look up Dr. Nash? He's the OB that delivered you. His office is on Park Avenue. I'm sure he would love to meet you. I was like, what?

Yeah, mom, whatever. That is so weird. That's preposterous. Obies aren't trying to get reconnected with the 10,000 babies. Now I have my own ideas. Yeah, they don't want to like see you again. He's missed you. Yeah, don't worry, you guys. I did not go hang out with my mom's gynecologist. So went to the girls weekend, had a lot of fun, forgot all about it.

Then I was 22, 23 in my first kind of serious relationship with a boy and it was getting pretty serious. So my mom wanted to meet his parents. And instead of just being like chill and normal, she started grilling them. Like, where are you from? Are you from New York? What hospital was Rob born in? And what day? And she's asking him all

All these like really super personal questions. And she wasn't like that. She was weird and quirky, but not that way. Well, she spent a lot of time with herself in a harpsichord. That's a personality type. Okay. But now I do want us to tell what you think it is because I want to say what I think. Well, I think the reason the dad was willing to just bounce all together is he found out these weren't his children.

Is that your guess? I think there's more. You guys are good. You guys are good. When I tell this story at parties, people are just like, look. That's why I resist doing it because I don't want to mean to take the fun out of your reveal, but I'm such a fucking skeptic that thinks everyone's conning everyone. I pick it up quick. I don't know. And this topic is parents' secrets, so there's got to be something. Huge clue. So she's grilling the lover, which is uncomfortable, and she's telling me to

meet the OB, which is super weird. And I didn't put this together until years later. So now we're going to skip forward 20 years. 20 years. I'm 42 years old at this point. My mom was sick. She actually got cancer and she was dying. And she sat me and my sister, Lori, down. And she told us this big secret that she had kept her whole life. So here's what I know.

things in the bedroom were not working at all with her husband. Yep. You're quote dad. Maybe he and Leonard were more... We don't know. There's a few theories. She couldn't get pregnant. He couldn't get her pregnant. She went to the doctor and she's like, I really want to have babies. So he's like, okay, well, we have this cutting edge new process. Yes. Yes. If you want to get pregnant, come back on Tuesday. So on Tuesday...

He entered the exam room with a vial of semen, a medical grade turkey baster, and proceeded with what we now call artificial insemination. She got pregnant and had me. She didn't ask too many questions. She was just so happy to have me. So she went back 15 months later for another insemination. She was like, more of the same, please, and had Lori. And then obviously, strain on the marriage. You guys were right. Why?

walked away. And she always kind of suspected that somebody in that office, Dr. Nash or one of his partners might be our biological father. Yes. Supply the sample. There's been a lot of podcasts about this. Well, race to 35, we had this exact story. Yes. And there's a lot of scandal and lawsuits and people meeting each other. So that's where my story continues. But this is a happy story. So we're not mad at anybody, unlike some other people.

You can see that I'm like a happy person. So Internet rabbit hole was entered by me. I Googled Dr. Nash and only found his obituary. But then I went crazy. I like found all of his partners from that time. They're all 90 plus at this point. But one of them was still alive, retired and living in Florida, as you could expect. And I emailed him and he agreed to talk.

to me and he filled me in on the process. And it sounds like, you know, some of this, but I'll just give you a summary and then I'll tell you how I met some siblings. But in 1969, artificial insemination was brand new. There were no sperm banks. There was no like donor registry, nothing. So the doctors were the sperm donors. Yes. Really quick. Every time I've heard this story roll out on a podcast or in a documentary, I mean, it's obviously wrong in a lot of ways, but at

the same time i can wrap my head around the fact like this woman really wants a baby i'm a fucking doctor there's worse sperm donors she wants a baby i have sperm you could think it was an act of generosity i think it's positioned a lot of times as like an egomaniacal doctor who wants tons of replicas of themselves out there but i don't know that that's my total conclusion on it ask

After learning all of this, I agree with you. And you're right. There is the other side of it, too, that we've heard a lot about. There's a lawsuit in Washington right now with one of the OBs nearby. Because a lot of times they tell you it is a sperm donor. They lie and then they just go jack off in the bathroom. That's bad. Yeah, there's almost a cutoff like in the 90s when the infrastructure was there and blah, blah, blah. But like in 1969, it is a little bit different of a context. Yeah, but they need to just say, hey.

Hey. Hey, this is mine. Yeah. Yeah. And then these guys probably didn't want to say like, oh, this is mine because this guy had a family at the time. Yeah. The wife would have been like, hon, you can't be impregnating all these. Well, then that's also why it's not great. Anyway. Okay. So go on. Okay. Okay.

So I'll tell you my thing, but this is such an interesting conversation, which is why I was so happy to see this prompt. What this guy told me, Florida guy, usually the resident doctors who were in OB-GYN, so the ones that are kind of apprenticing, they weren't paid very well. They were paid like $35 a week for work at that time, but they could make 50 bucks if they brought a fresh sperm sample to an office on the day an insemination was scheduled.

So the attending doctors, like Dr. Nash, could call up a resident and be like, hey, can you bring a sample to my office Tuesday at nine? I have an insemination scheduled. And this is rare, but getting more and more common in New York City at that time. So some guys donated samples.

a lot, like made a ton of extra money. And I actually met some people who all kind of traced back their dad to this one resident who was like prolifically donating at the time. And they found like 20 siblings. Wow. And they all kind of looked alike and they all looked like this guy. But that's not what happened with me. But some doctors donated a lot. There were a lot of babies born. There were no records. So there's a lot of half siblings walking around in New York City at that time who

didn't know that they maybe were related to each other and maybe could have gotten into a relationship. So yeah, a little bit gross. And that's why my mom was interrogating my boyfriend's parents, like just making sure I know this would be crazy. But what if he's another one and they're about to make inbred grandchildren for me? Interesting. I didn't figure out that piece.

Well, that was kind of a stretch for her out of all the people in the world. These two New York babies are going to get together. You never know. But this is her grandchild she's talking about. So she's got to be careful. So she was just making sure that I wasn't about to commit incest. But luckily, he was not a sperm donor baby.

So then I joined this like donor sibling registry, which is this big website where turkey baster babies like me are trying to connect with each other. And the recommendation there is like, get your DNA out there on all the websites. So a lot of people do now. And I know you guys have talked about this too. I sent my DNA to ancestry.com, 23andMe to see if I had any half siblings. And I mailed my DNA and I waited and I like forgot my password, forgot to check. But that's

But then just a few years ago, I got a notification. I matched with a half-sister. Her name is Arlene. She is 16 years older than me. And she had no idea that she was conceived by insemination. She had just gotten a 23andMe test for Christmas. And she's like, what the hell? This is increasingly common, this story. That means that happened for her in 1956 they were doing that. Yes, 1953. Oh, fuck.

Crazy, crazy time. So I talked to her. We kind of like put it together. We met in New York City. We went to dinner and she was like nonstop talking with her hands the whole time. You guys were similar. Yeah. And my kids were there. They're like, yeah, I think you guys are probably related. And really quickly, does that feel immediately connected? My children have very little interaction with any of their cousins because of where we live.

And my cousin Justin bring his kids over. It's undeniable. They know they're related. It's so weird. You know, it's hard to know the placebo effect mixed into here because we kind of knew that we should be alike, but we did think we were alike. Oh, and I sent Emma a picture. Oh, great. There's more of us, so there's a little more to it. But the thing...

the thing I think that was the most alike between the two of us is that we both immediately thought that this was like a positive thing she thought her dad was her dad her whole life and knew him but for her she was like this is cool I got more family everything is good so the optimism on some level you could go like okay once you find out that the dad wasn't your dad somehow that would erase the fact that you had been abandoned by your father in your mind for 40 years like but that

can't happen, right? You can't just like clean the slate of abandonment. I have been thinking about that because someone like me could grow up and think, oh, you know, this guy never even wanted to meet me. And I do remember thinking when I acted like an asshole, I'm like, well, he must be an asshole. So that's like where I got it. Sure, sure.

a pretty good life. And you had grandpa obviously was a father figure. Yeah, I don't think I have the sad part of the story that other people in this situation might have. I had it pretty good. Being raised by your grandparents, five stars. Highly recommend. Oh, yes. Yeah, I know. When I'm a grandparent, I definitely want to like help out. Now as a parent, I'm like, oh my God, how did they do this all over again? But for the kids, it was great. I mean, I probably have some issues. I'm a little scathed, but not majorly scathed.

So we looked at Dr. Nash's obituary again, and he was in med school in 1953 at Columbia. That is where and when Arlene was conceived. And then he worked at Lenox Hill Hospital, 1969. We know that's when and where I was conceived. And then the obituary was like, he had a warm smile, sparkling eyes. Everybody loved him. And we were like, oh yeah, that's definitely our dad. It's like a horoscope, kind of. Exactly. I'm like, oh, I'm reading into this. He lit up a

like, oh my God, it's totally me. So then Arlene and I went down the rabbit hole of Ancestry.com and eventually we figured out that his grandparents chased back and were related to us too. So we were almost positive it was Dr. Nash. Wow.

So from there, my internet stalking skills really came in handy. You know, in an obituary, there's a lot of information. And one of the things you can find out is their kids' names. So he was survived by these two adult daughters in New York. And, you know, listed their names and their husband's name. So then I found their wedding announcements. Then I found where they worked. And then, you guys, I fucking called them. Yeah. Yeah.

Were you scared? I was so scared. Yeah. And I actually started with an email. I'm like, I swear I'm a normal person. You can Google me. I'm not trying to scam you. I don't need a kidney. But I think

- I think we might be related. So like, could we meet? And they did not at all know that their dad was like donating sperm at work, but they did agree. - Oh, they did because I was gonna point out the context is so different with the other sister. You guys are both in search of something. These people in a weird way, you're like, dad, why did you go do, you know, it's so opposite. - Yeah, it's only disruptive.

Well, unless now you guys have a great relationship, then that is additive. But they got to be pretty confident people and well-adjusted to think this is a win for them, that their dad was out knocking women up. And you have all these half-siblings everywhere. Yeah. For Arlene, he was kind of a kid. He didn't have a wife and kids yet, but his two daughters are older than me. So I didn't know, and my mom didn't know, but he knew he was like a married guy giving sperm to a person at work. So like,

It could be super awkward, but you guys, it's not. We love each other. And Emma has the picture of the four of us. Oh, that's so sweet. So when I tell the story, I always say, like, they sent in their cheek swabs to confirm the theory. And now I have three new sisters and none of them is an asshole. Oh.

I think this guy was a very generous good person because every sister is nice and kind and generous of spirit and his daughters agreed they're like this is totally the kind of thing dad would have done he loved people he loved babies he was an obi guy he always wanted people to get what they wanted we saw his office where he had pictures of all these babies even though he had already passed away by the time we got to see it so it was actually like a really happy ending the

tricky thing well there's a few but the one I'm hung up on is when did he decide he's like just because he thinks your mom's hot it's like when does he decide to donate his own sperm versus the residents yes that's a fair question well they're not always available maybe it was

I don't buy that he was attracted to her, but what I do think is possible is you're like, I'm going to combine my sperm to create a kid. So probably I'm not giving my sperm to a junkie that comes in.

I do still think you'd have some bizarre primitive notion that my offspring need to be taken care of. So you would be selective a bit if you're in his situation in that moment. Yeah, I don't know. I just think that part's interesting. Okay. I wish we could ask him. Or he's like, well, the resident didn't show up. She's ovulating. Shit, I gotta get this.

But are you and your sister biological? Lori did a DNA test too. And she and I found out that we are half sisters. And then she found her donor who was like another OB-GYN, I think a resident during that time. So she didn't get the same sperm that I did, even though my mom kind of wanted that. And I think that was like a good call by Dr. Nash because he didn't want to like have a whole family with this lady. Yeah. Yeah. But also this. Okay. Interesting. Wow. Wow.

I know. You're uncomfortable, Monica. I'm not uncomfortable. I'm just uncomfortable with the fact that your mom thought something was happening and it wasn't. That feels unfair to me for her. It's weird. I can't imagine this as a patient now. There's like so much more disclosure. She said she didn't really ask that many questions.

Right. When you want something, you're not trying to poke holes in it. You're like, I want a baby through hook or crook. I'm not trying to talk myself out of it. Exactly. Like, well, I get to ask three questions of this thing. If I ask too many, I'm not going to get what I want. Yes, that makes sense. Yeah, this is kind of a very positive story. Other than that, you thought your dad didn't care about you. That part's still probably a bit unresolved. Yeah, he was kind of

painted as like an asshole by my grandparents. I think they probably knew what was up because they were like, oh yeah, don't worry about him. We got you. My childhood was actually five stars. Well, Suzanne, this was awesome. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. Nice to meet you guys. Okay. Take care. There's a lot to glean from that. You get to choose how you react to things. Of course. How you look at life. Yeah. You're in the driver's seat. She's the hero of her story, not the victim of her story. Hi. Well,

Where are you in the world? I am in a suburb outside of Toronto. Oh, wonderful. We are nice neighbors to the north. And you have a lot of wonderful eclectic clothing. Yes, you have a vibrant aesthetic. I like bright colors. They look good on me, so I'm not going to lie.

I'm not even going to pretend. Greens and purples are my go-to. Yes. And did you grow up in that area? I did. The story takes place in this area. Oh, it does. I haven't gone too far. I did go to school in the States, but I came back. Where? All the way to Buffalo. Oh, wow. Okay.

You were like, no, Buffalo's not for me. I loved Buffalo. But when I was in school, it was right after 9-11. So staying was kind of out of the question. It was kind of hard to get visas back then. So I had to come home. I got you. Okay, so your parents kept a secret from you. They did. And this takes place here in the suburbs back in like 1988 or 89. Okay, great. Don't really know when. I was eight or nine. Monica was one or two. Yep. I was coming home from school. It was a short walk.

And when I turned the corner, I noticed there was police cars in the driveway. And I was like, oh, shit, this is not good. We live in a very upscale suburb, so not what I would be expecting to come home to. And I'm panicking, like, oh, did something happen to one of my parents? Was there a heart attack? So I run in the house. Immediately when I come in, I notice the house is a disaster. Chairs are turned over. Things are askew. And I finally see my mom. And she's like, the house is broken into while driving.

We were at work. And I was like, what? This doesn't happen here. What's going on? And she's like, go check your room and see if...

if you're missing anything valuable, valuable being the key word, I'm eight. Your cabbage patch doll. Game boy. Yeah. So I go upstairs looking for the one key thing that if it was gone, I'd be devastated, which was my Raggedy Ann doll, which I took everywhere with me. But luckily it was there. My sister checked her stuff. All of our stuff was there. Obviously, we didn't have anything of value for the thieves to take. So I went downstairs and

We chatted and I was like, no, no, there's nothing missing. So after we've had a couple of hours to kind of digest with everything's going on, I was like, oh, you know, we haven't checked on our pet guinea pig. Backstory is my father never wanted dogs. Oh, my God. Don't do it. We're all thinking it. But OK, let's keep hearing it. So we have guinea pigs because my father did not want a pet dog. He said it was too much work.

We go look over where the cage was supposed to be and the cage is empty. I was like, Mom, what happened to Poppy? Poppy being the name of the pet kitty pig. It had yeety red eyes. That's why it got its name for Poppy. Anyways, she was like, Oh my God, the robber is kicking it in the robbery. And I was like, Oh,

Why would the robbers take a guinea pig? Okay, so you already thought this is weird. You were suspicious from the jump? Yeah, because I was like, really? And my mom's like, maybe they had kids that really needed a pet. And I was like, okay. But I trusted my mom. Okay, really quick, Christine. I'm just imagining like there was a real robbery. How quickly into this was your mom or dad like, well, look, go.

God gave us lemons, but we've got a real opportunity here. I wonder how long into processing the fact that their house had been burglarized before they're like, fuck, we could get rid of this skinny pig right now. No, I don't think. I think the whole thing. Oh, you think a different thing? I think the whole thing. You think even the rock? Yes. That's the frog. All right, let's continue. I love the idea, though, of them walking through all the house like, are your jewels here? No, they're.

Oh my God. Oh my God. Okay. My tools are still here. And then like get in the kitchen. Like, oh, well, this is very upsetting. They hired the ambulance guy. And then they, okay. Okay. Go on. Go on. So through high school, through university, I would tell the story. Cause I'm like, you would never believe our house was broken into, which was first a weird thing for the area. But I was like, they stole our guinea pig. And my sister and I would repeat this story to people.

And there were times when I was in high school and people would be like, there's no way they stole your guinea pig. And I'd be like, ask my mom. And my mom would back up my story that the guinea pig was stolen. And I was like, see? And people were like, that's just so weird. And I was like, well, if my mom's still validating my story, it has to be true. So,

Come to like when I'm 30 and I'm retelling this story at our cottage with a group of five of my girlfriends and my mom's sitting there listening and she's like, Chris. Really quick. Are we drinking? Is mom tipsy? She could have been. Who knows? We're always drinking at the cottage. Sure, of course. That's why you build a cottage. For no other reason. So she's like, Chris, I really, really should tell you something. And I was like, watch.

She's like, the guinea pig wasn't stolen in the robbery. It died in the commission of that crime. Oh. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? She's like, yeah, when I came home, the cage was knocked over and I guess it had gotten out, but then it was laying dead in the hallway when she came home. Oh no.

Oh, this is much sweeter of your parents. Although now we're already on a foundation of deception. Is this part two of the story? She's like, well, she's no longer buying this. How do we? So she tells me this and then one of my friends

who just happened to have my mom as a professor in college. It was a random fact. I met her after the fact. And then she saw my mom when we came up to the cottage. She was like, hey, wait, you were my professor? Oh my God, wow. Okay. And she's like, this story sounded familiar. And I was like, what do you mean this story sounds familiar? I'm just learning this. And she's like, your mom used this story as an example in her organizational behavior class earlier.

decision making. I actually got it from my mom because I was like, I'm sorry, you use this as an example of a moral dilemma. Oh,

A situation where a person is required to make a difficult choice. The example involves whether you lie to your children to minimize the trauma of a break-in and tell them their guinea pig was stolen versus died. Or tell them the truth and hope that they can cope with the news. So basically...

My mom had decided in that moment that she'd rather not have us have two traumas in the day, just a singular trauma. So she lied to us for almost 30 years. Okay. Trying to protect us. That makes sense. And she probably thought you were eight. You'd forget about that.

And then apparently you've been talking about it for 30 years. She knew I was still talking about it in high school. Well, so is she. She's teaching a class on it. I mean, everyone's kind of can't move on. To further that, she was like, I would tell my class that if you ever saw my children, please don't tell them this story. Oh.

- Oh my God. - This is incredible. - It is. - Wait, I am sad though that the whole robbery wasn't made up. - I wanted the dad mostly to go like, you know, we've got a golden opportunity here to get rid of this. - That would be really bad.

But that's what happened on Remember That. The cat one. Yeah, yeah. We've now had two Armchair Anonymous stories that are siblings. It just happened to be like too random. And the dad is a real hoot in both of these stories. If that was your dad, it would have been my story where they just made up this entire robbery because the guinea pig got out and they didn't want it to be their fault. Oh, you went to there. Like, I got you. It didn't want to be their fault. So it was like, sorry, there was a robbery and it was stolen. Yeah. Okay.

Okay. No, the robbery really happened. Unfortunately. And there was a murder. Yeah. There was a murder. I don't know. Maybe it died just in complete shock of what was transpiring in the house. It just was crazy. And it was the 80s. So I'm not really sure what they could have stolen because we had one of those really large, like the TV was a piece of furniture. It wasn't something you could just hold.

all out when you're telling the story i'm remembering when we came home and our house was robbed and it was my mom and my brother and i yeah and they stole like the two jam boxes we had gotten for christmas from my grandpa they got nothing oh wow that was great that was i really enjoyed that thank you for this experience it's

I am now the coolest aunt, apparently. That's what my niece and nephew have told me. So I wanted to shout out to my niece and nephew, Hunter and Scarlett. Oh, what's up? Coolest aunt in the world. I'm a coolest aunt because one, I was on the podcast. And two, I work for a company that makes the Canadian version of Lunchables. Oh, that is really cool. Very cool. Wow.

Wow. Yeah. What a life. Well, Christine, that was a humdinger. Yes. Thank you so much for that. It gave me a lot of giggles. Thank you for having me. Yes. Our pleasure. All right. Take care. Bye.

What a hoot. Oh, man. It's so funny you and I came to such different. Yeah. Both nefarious. No, you immediately thought it just died. No, I thought the parents accidentally let it out of the house. Oh, okay. So they didn't want to take the blame. They covered their tracks. Yeah, and they thought the kids would hate them, so they created a robbery and hired a police officer. Yeah, I thought they were just like, this thing stinks. I'm so sick of this thing. We've been given an opportunity to get rid of them. You wouldn't really take an opportunity. I would never kill my kid's pet. Exactly.

Most people wouldn't. But I'm a very ethical person, as you know. It trends really high on the scale. We are supported by Squarespace. There's never been a better time to create your own website thanks to Squarespace, especially because of their new guided design system, Blueprint AI. Choose from professionally curated layout and styling options, and then Blueprint AI can build a unique online presence from the ground up.

Tailored to your brand or business and optimized for every device. And I'm not just saying the experience is good. Even our site is powered by Squarespace. We're putting our site where our mouth is. That's right. Check out squarespace.com for a free trial or go to squarespace.com slash DAX to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

We are supported by IKEA. You know, I was just in Scandinavia, Monica. Yes, you were. Home of IKEA. And I was on keen alert to see some native IKEA's and I did. Wow. I think we have the biggest IKEA in the world. You do in Burbank? I think so. It is a monster. You know what's better than a pretty good night out? A

really, really good night in. You know, those golden moments that come around once in a while when you finally feel you can say no to plans and yes to staying at home and chilling out. It's the best. Trust me, I know. And so does IKEA. They've got what you need to design a bedroom you'll never want to leave. In fact, they've got a whole system for it. See, they believe in six sleep essentials. Sound, light, air quality, room style, and furnishings, and temperature. So of course, they've got a solution for

each one that'll work for your taste. And as always, IKEA prides itself on providing high quality solutions at an affordable price with options for every kind of budget. So what are you waiting for? Go ahead and experience the joy of missing out. Get your sleep essentials in store or online at ikea-usa.com slash sleep with pickup and delivery options. Click or tap the banner to shop now and sleep better with IKEA.

Kickstart the school year with Apple Gift Card. You can send it via email or send a physical card to your loved ones. Inspire their curiosity with a world of apps. Boost their productivity with Apple products like iPhone and iPad and help them unwind with the newest albums on Apple Music. Subscriptions to their favorite streaming services, access to over 200 games and more. Visit apple.com for details and to send Apple Gift Cards this back-to-school season.

Here's Dwayne. Dwayne Johnson. Wouldn't that be great? That would be so great. We've said that before, I guess. Just to shit talk your gym. Yeah.

Hi, Dwayne. Good to see you both. Yes, it's Dwayne, yeah? It is, yeah. And where are you? I'm in Burlington, Ontario, which is about 40 minutes west of Toronto. Yeah, this is going to blow your mind, or maybe it won't. We just talked to Christine in the exact same spot. We had no Canadian callers, yeah, suburb of Toronto. And now back to back. That's funny. Maybe it could be a meet-cute. Maybe, oh, this is what we could do with our very small sample set. Yeah, married. Canadian parents are deceptive.

Let's proclaim that. Okay. The Canadians, as nice as they are and as friendly and polite, they lie to their kids. Yeah, and this one's a weird one. Oh, good. So we had a cottage when I was growing up.

and it's about three hours north of Toronto. We were on this really small lake, really, really remote. I had lots of great memories there growing up. Like we water skied, tubed, all that sort of stuff there. - Lake life's the best life, period, right? It's number one. - Yeah. We were a single income family, so we didn't take like big trips anywhere. We had the cottage, we shared it with my grandfather. That was like every summer was going up. So fast forward to maybe 10 years ago, so I was around 30 at the time.

And I found out that the reason that we bought into the cottage was because someone was murdered there. Oh, wow. Wait. What? We need more details.

Well, we just ended it there. We're like, oh my God. Thank you, Dwayne. Have a great day. Okay, what? The cottage was originally purchased. It was my grandfather. He was a policeman. It was another policeman and a real estate agent. Her name was Maureen. And from the time that I was born, it was only my parents and my grandfather that I knew owned the cottage.

And at some point there, I found out that there had been a third owner before. My parents just kind of said, yeah, somebody else used to own it. We bought their share. And that was kind of the end of it. And then I find out that the woman who had originally found it, which was Maureen, she was the agent. She had gone up there with her boyfriend. They had been drinking. Apparently, they got into an argument and he murdered her with a rock. Oh, my God.

Very rudimentary. Crime of passion. Very primitive. Oh, crimes of passion for a prompt. Okay. Okay. So they already all owned it at that time. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

So my parents didn't own it at that point. It was just my grandfather and the other two there. My parents had gone up there before. My dad's pretty handy, so I guess he had done some work at the cottage. And I guess the rock that they used on the door to sort of prop it open there, he had walked past that I don't know how many times. That wound up being the murder weapon. So it was something in his periphery all the time. Jeez.

So she was killed in the cottage. Yeah. So I think it was 1981 when she was murdered. I tried looking for any kind of news story about that. Can't find any more details. But yeah, they got the argument. He murdered her with a rock. Apparently he stuffed her under the bed. Oh, okay.

And made a run for it. I don't know how far he made it down the road, but the car caught on fire. I think he might have set the car on fire. Police got called out there. And again, like we're super, super removed. So the next sort of major city, if you know Ontario at all, it's about halfway between Huntsville and North Bay. Police get out there. They wind up going down this very quiet road. They go door to door trying to figure out whose car that was on the road that had been

set on fire. They get to the cottage there and I guess they find evidence that somebody had been murdered. There was blood spatter on one of the walls there and that's how they figured out there was a crime. Wow.

Wow. The guy wound up, he hitchhiked back 200 miles, which is back to basically where we live. It's like two towns over. But he hitchhiked back like 200 miles in the murder clothes that he had been wearing. Oh my God. Yeah, and probably still intoxicated. Probably. Yeah, smelling like booze, covered in blood, hop in the car. Murder clothes is kind of a cool band name. Murder clothes, that is nice.

- So in 1981, now this is where your guys' politeness might be problematic, 'cause 1981, nighttime, pick up a guy, he reeks like booze, and he's got some blood, maybe not give him a ride, but he got a ride all the way back. - Again, it's super remote out there, so to find somebody just kind of wandering to the side of the road,

should raise a few red flags. Yeah, highly suspicious. So we had the murder there and I didn't know about it till maybe 10 years ago. My sister had somehow found out about it and we were just kind of having a conversation one day and my mom brought it up and I said like, what are you guys talking about? And my sister's like, yeah, I knew about the murder. Did you not know about the murder? I was like, no, I had no clue about this. Brothers sometimes don't know.

Did you feel insulted? Like, oh, they thought I couldn't handle it? No. And I'm not even really sure why, because I know like my sister would be the one that would not be able to handle that. That would totally freak her out. I'm really not sure why they never came forward with it to me. Yeah, because my previous house, I found out that the owner had been murdered in it and it didn't bother me at all. Yeah, I hated that story. You hated it. And I was like, yeah, I don't know. It didn't bother me. I checked to make sure that the home I purchased, no one died there. You can check.

that. It's a public record. If you think about it, Monica, the odds of someone being murdered in any given house in LA are like, I don't know what they are, one in a million. Now you look at the odds of two murders happening in one house and you're in the like one in 10 billion. So I almost feel safeguarded

Not me. OK. Ghosts and all. You're probably fine, right? Is it still in the family, the cottage? So, no. The idea there was that it was going to be an investment property. I graduated high school in 2002, so my parents sold it off and it didn't cover university like at all. Sure, sure.

Market just wasn't what it was. My wife and I just purchased a property two lakes away from where our cottage was. I've got two boys now. And so that was my thing was like, yeah, we're going to the cottage. We only have a trailer on the property right now. So there's definitely no weirdness, no murder scene, nothing like that. Sure.

Yeah. Do you think your parents, when they sold it, had to disclose that someone was murdered there? I think you might have to. What I think might have happened is Maureen was the previous owner who was the one murdered. I don't know if you have to disclose the immediately previous. Yeah, I'm not sure. How many murders away before you have to stop saying that? Yeah, after a few owners. Okay. Wow. Yikes.

The other kind of weird part about it, again, I didn't know this growing up, and this one probably makes a little bit more sense. Because my dad and my grandfather were both police officers, some of the furnishings and some of the finishing touches in the cottage itself came from crime scenes. Oh. Oh, my God.

One of the pieces of furniture we had, it was a really long table. It was probably like a seven, eight foot long table. Just a sort of plain piece of wood and it had like a long shelf underneath. And it was just an odd design. It wasn't made in a store or anything like that. Well, I found out that the table there was actually a massage table for...

from one of those, like, illegal Robin Tugs? Sure, sure. Oh, my God. I want to hang with your dad and your grandpa. They brought this to the house to eat off of? Well, that's the thing. Like, we never ate off it. We had a separate table. They only jacked off on it, Monica. Jesus. Ew. Ugh. Ugh.

So the massage table was just one sitting at the side there. And then a lot of the paneling that was inside was the paneling that they had used for walls in this illegal massage parlor. Oh, my God. They just kind of looted this place.

Yeah, I was going through old videos trying to see if I could find like a clear shot of the table and I couldn't find anything. But the best I had was there's video of my sister coloring this nice, innocent picture of the family at this table where you're right. Like, I'm sure something like that happens. Yeah, lots more than that happened on that. It's a house of horrors, this cottage. Yeah, I hate this cottage, but it's fun. Wow. All right.

Dwayne, that was delicious. That was great. Yeah. Appreciate it. Big time. Thanks for chatting with us. Yeah. No, I want to thank you guys because my wife and I were huge fans of the show. When we got our property up north there, we basically downloaded a whole bunch of episodes because we didn't have internet up there. We first got it. No electricity. So when we were just kind of like, OK, we're sitting in the dark here. We'd listen to armchair. Oh, that's so fun. That is fun.

I like being associated with your like life in the summer. Yeah, that's cool. Well, thank you so much, Dwayne. Great meeting you. Yeah, it was great to meet you guys. Thank you so much. All right. Take care. Yep. They're nicer than us Canadians. They're nicer. Justice system again. Oh, no. You're going to climb back up on your soapbox. Yeah, I sure am. Murder clothes would be screamo. For sure.

Hello. Can you hear us? Yes, I can. What name would you like to go by? Okay, so I'll do Nicole. Nicole. Nicole. Nicole. Nicole. Perfect. I know. I have to remember, too. I wrote it down. So, Nicole, where are you? I'm at work. I'm in the Inland Empire area. That's plenty enough info for me to get a vibe of where you're at. Monica, do you know about the Inland Empire? No, I'm really bad at geography. Okay, perfect. You're fine. But I'll look it up later. You have a story about your parents keeping a secret from you.

I do. Is it a heavy one or a fun one? Yeah, should we laugh or cry? Should we cry? This one is very heavy, but I'm going to try to make it light if possible. I went back and forth whether or not I was even going to follow through with it because secrets are heavy. And then I kind of felt like now I'm telling a secret that was kept from me. I kind of felt like I was

them. But I was the one betrayed. So, you know, it's like this full circle moment. It is. And then also the only power of secrets is when they're secrets. You can release them. Yeah. And I haven't told many people this story. So when I was thinking about it, I was like, OK, I kind of have to wrap my head around it myself. So I had to find my purpose in it for me. And I think I did. So this was actually a

A good experience. I'm glad I got this chance. Good. All right. Let's hear it. Okay. Growing up, my family was pretty typical. I would say normal, but you know, normal is a wide road. It was my mom and dad, my older sister and myself. Some of the things that made it a little bumpy is my dad is a recovering alcoholic. So lots of fighting, lots of addiction stuff, codependency. And then when my parents would fight, there would be some common themes, but one of them would be this person, Jack.

And you're a kid. You can't really make sense of things, but I would just kind of file it away in my head. And then one night we were all in the car together. So we're just stuck in this fight hearing it. And my dad was just like, that's it. I'm going to tell them, girls, I had a son before I met your mom. And his name is Jack. And he's your brother. And she would never let me tell you. And we're just kind of like, what? Yeah.

Yeah. Right. I'm like nine or 10. So I file it away. And then the next day I asked my mom, what was he talking about? And she said, oh, you know how your dad is. He doesn't know what he's talking about. Oh, boy. He makes stuff up and he thinks maybe he got some person pregnant when he was younger. But don't worry about it. So then I'm even more confused, but just kind of learned like, OK, I don't talk about this.

So then as I get older, I do some investigative stuff. He had one of those big honking next telephones for work. Sure. So I would go through it and look at his texts every now and then. And it would be from this person, Jack.

And it would say like, happy birthday, dad. Happy Father's Day, pops. And I was like, maybe it's like someone from work. And that's how they talk to each other because I can't make sense of it. But I'm filing it. Really nothing else until it's 2018. And I'm 25 years old. I had just graduated. I'm a therapist. I'm practicing. I'm working.

working with teens, like at-risk youth that have problems with their families. So I'm doing family therapy. And then I started thinking, I wonder if I'm Google-able. So I Google my name because I'm like, I wonder what these teens would see if they Google me. But I have a very common name. So it was like a very niche search. Like only I would be able to find myself. So I'm on Google and I'm on that page where it shows your addresses, your phone numbers, and possible relatives.

And then the first name that pops up is Jack. No way. And so it's like Jack and we have the same last name. And then my dad, my sister. This is now bringing back some of those dots from when I was younger. I do a deep dive and I'm like, what can I find on this person? And then as I'm Googling, there's like this one video that pops up. It was like at the top of the search history and I click on it. And it's just like this compilation of pictures of this guy. And so...

as I'm looking at them, it was so shocking because I'm seeing a version of my dad and I look a lot like my dad. So I'm seeing similarities to myself and it's like pictures of him and his friends. And then there's this picture of a little boy with

with like his arm around my dad. This picture is kind of like etched in my mind. And then I just like lost it. And I'm like sobbing because all this stuff is not making sense. And then there's pictures of him, my dad and my grandma and then him with my cousins. And age wise, really quick. Are you able to tell from these pictures whether Jack is older or younger than you? Yeah, he's older. He's like a 30 year old man that I'm looking at. And I'm mid 20s, but like late 30s, I would say.

And so I click out of the video because I'm like, what is this? And then the heading of it is like, rest in peace. Jack. Oh no. Do I have a brother? Did he pass away? Like a lot of information all at once. It's like 9 p.m. So just naturally, I just jump in my car and I drive to my parents' house because like I need to know now. And so I get to their house. I throw open the door and I'm just like sobbing. And my mom's like, what happened? Did you crash?

Because that's what she always thinks. Like I crashed and then I drove 30 minutes. And then I just say, who's Jack? And my dad's head kind of drops and his shoulders drop. And he's just like, oh, how do you know? And I'm just like, who is he? And he says he was my son, but he passed away last year. Oh, wow.

Oh, my Lord. And so he takes me outside and he tells me the whole story. And my dad is very larger than life. Lots of emotions. Even if he tells like some neighbor's story, he's like, can you believe it? And in this moment, he was so calm.

In our therapy world, we would say he was like intellectualizing, you know, like almost telling a story like as if it was the news. Like, okay, well, when I was about 19, I was dating someone and she got pregnant and then we had Jack and I met your mom and we got married and she knew him and loved him and everything was okay. But then we had you two and things kind of changed for her. She said, I don't want them to know him. Yes.

Interesting decision. Yes. So then I'm kind of sitting with it at the same time, just like my heart is breaking for my dad. Like this is explaining so many things. Always thinking of him as like so angry and why does he always need all these things? Because he was addicted to like lots of stuff over time. He would even be addicted to like that.

No stuff to Afrin. Oh, sure. Oh, yeah. Anything that you could overuse. Then he's saying, like, I kept in touch with him. They actually lived not too far from us. My dad's telling me Jack also struggled with addiction and drinking. And so he had a family of his own.

But he called him one night in 2017 when he was like drinking and he was out of state. He was really upset. And my dad was just like, you need to stop drinking, put your phone away and just like go to sleep. Because my dad had been in the AA for like years. He's been through this. He just was like, you have to keep yourself away from yourself. Like you're gonna cause problems. Don't make any decisions.

So he tells him he will. And then my dad said he couldn't sleep because he just knew like something was going to happen. And then he didn't hear from him and he passed away. Oh my gosh, that's so sad. Heartbreaking. The most shocking thing is he's just calmer than I am. I'm like crying the whole time. And then he said, and then your mom organized everything. She put the whole funeral together. And he's like, I was there, your grandma, your aunts, your uncles, your cousins, and your sister. And I'm like, what? My sister?

Ooh, I would have, I would have been so, I would have felt very betrayed by that part. Yeah. Yeah. So that's when it kind of became a whole nother level of confusion and just like more hurt. Like what is wrong with me that I can't know anything. Why am I the only person this is being kept from? And then I said, how could you tell her? How did she know? And he's like, I didn't tell her. She found out on her own, like how you're finding out. You have to talk to her about that. But she knew him and she had like her own experience with him. That,

That feels so unfair to you that you didn't get the opportunity to know him. No, I agree. So I finished my conversation with him, like knowing there's a lot more to come. This was just kind of scratching the surface. I don't talk to my mom because like I can't go there right now. And I leave and then I drive to my sister's house and I'm just like, I found out about Jack and she's screaming.

This is the part that when I think about it cracks me up. She's screaming. No. Oh, no. Oh, my God. Is she the older sister? She's four years older. Trying to protect. Somehow in some parental role with you as well. For sure. We've never been close. She's always telling me like what to do and worried about me. And then she tells me her story. She's like, I didn't know I was like 20 or 21. And I had this friend.

And he worked with Jack, like in another city. This is all very crazy how it came up. Yeah, I guess you guys would say Sim, right? You weirdos. That's when I realized he always knew about us, but we didn't know him. My dad would show him pictures of us and tell him like stories and how we were doing. And so when his friend said like, oh, I'm going to go meet up with so-and-so, they have the same last name. And he's like, I think that's my sister.

And so then he tells my sister, the friend, like, I want to introduce you to someone. And he introduces her to him. Wow. So she's 21. So I'm like starting college at this time. So I think every time it came up, it was just like, don't bother Nicole. Like she has finals. And so I think my sister basically did the same thing I did that night. Go to my parents like, what is wrong with you? How did you not tell me this?

And was like, I need to tell Nicole. And my mom told her, if you tell her, I'll never speak to you again. She won't speak to you either. This is a woman that kept a secret for 20 years. It's her whole identity sort of wrapped up in this too. The foundation is already shaky and she's worried it's going to get like pulled out. Yeah, but I'm like an adult. It's become malignant. It has. It has. It got away from her.

Yeah, like she was going to go to the grave with this secret that like wasn't even hers, but she was kind of the one directing it. And so my sister says she was talking to him like they would go out a lot because they had mutual friends. And then over time, he would just get really angry and upset with her because it was just like, I just want to meet her. Why can't I meet Nicole? And she was just like, I'm in this pickle. And I remember that time she like moved out.

We didn't hear from her for like months. And now it's like making sense. And did you detect when he had passed that your father's demeanor was curious or that your sister's was? Like they were dealing with a death, but not telling you. Was there anything perceptible about that? See, that's the really messed up part is I was living with them at the time because I had graduated and I was going to grad school. So I was living with my parents and I did not know any of it. Oh my God.

It's very harmful. I would imagine it's making you question what you're missing. What's reality? For sure. It's pretty layered. I remember that one day they were dressed up and they were like, we're going to a funeral. It's like a family friend's funeral. And I was just kind of like, okay. And now I'm thinking back, like, was that the day that he's going to his son's funeral? So then my sister's telling me that when she told him, like, I can't introduce you to her, that he kind of had to distance himself because he was so upset. You know, like...

What's wrong with me? Right. Well, his dad already kind of picked another family. And now he's what's so embarrassing or such a blood. He was also abandoned because he was part of that family for a second. And then like, you can't be here. It's pretty awful. So anyway, my sister is telling me like she didn't really talk to him, but they kept in touch. But he was just kind of going down a bad path. And then I don't think anyone expected him to pass away. I think they thought in time you'll meet him.

Right. Right. I was just going to ask about your mom. I mean, I'm like dying to know how this is resolved with her, if it has, if you've talked to her about it. Yeah. My mom is an interesting person in and of herself. That's why I was conflicted on sharing because there's really no resolution. You know, it's not like, oh, I met him and then now we're all a big family, like he said. And when I spoke to my mom, obviously she had her reasons too, but she's like a very defensive person. She gets very anxious. So I

Over time, I just have a lot of empathy for them to be these young people. And for whatever reason to have made these decisions, I can't imagine what was going on for them. I know for my dad, he still says my mom is the reason he's still alive. You know, like he gives her a lot of that credit. So I think when he's faced with that ultimatum, it's kind of like, if I lose the girls and her, like I'll probably die. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that's always been his logic. And then for her, if we can be compassionate to her, she's...

A codependent linked her cart to a very unpredictable, unstable man that has this other family. And she has now got two children and she is not going to let this chaos take down this thing that she has. And for whatever weird reason, she obviously evaluated Jack Bean.

something that was threatening somehow even though it doesn't make sense to me or you i have to imagine she just thought that was somehow a threat to the stability of you four as a family unit which i don't agree with but i have to imagine and this is a little bit less compassionate but i just think for a lot of codependence there's also a control and being the person who is the one doing the pills is the one doing it all there's a control and a weird it's hard to

say satisfaction. It's their addiction. Exactly. It's their own addiction. So I'm sure that was at play here. And if adding another person in the mix makes it uncontrollable. Yes, for sure. I mean, this was all my logic, too. This was how I was trying to make sense of it in my head. And knowing her, too. She told me

Jack's mom, she had known her and there's just a lot of chaos and she thought it could pose a threat or be kind of dangerous. And they all died really young. So I think she just didn't want that for us. I think she was hoping my dad would stay sober and we wouldn't have to be touched by like addiction. And somehow that kid in the ex relationship represented the version of him she was trying to

make sure never returned. Yeah. I mean, look, no one's in an ideal situation making bad decisions. They're in a rough, bad situation making bad, rough decisions. I struggled. I haven't gone to therapy until this year. It was the first time I started therapy because I think I just couldn't open that can of worms. I was just like, there's so much. And then on top of it, like my own stuff now, but I have a child now and I'm like, I have to do this work because I just feel like

We're destined to repeat it. Yeah, you can't break a cycle unless you're breaking the cycle. When I did the work, it all was so overwhelming. Like, it's so intense. The therapy program I was a part of, you had to do a lot of work on yourself and kind of like, what brings you to this field? And I was like, I don't really know. My job isn't as good.

Even though I know it had all of these ups and downs and all of this chaotic stuff, I guess the purpose of why I thought this could be important to share my story is all the families I worked with, there was always some disconnection. And a lot of the time it was secret. I would say majority of the kids I worked with, a common thing was they were raised by someone who they thought was their biological dad and then they found out it wasn't.

Really? Oh, it's so common. You know, another guy came in the picture and the kid was a baby and they didn't know. But then later, like a drunk uncle or a mean older sibling is like, that's not even your dad, bro. And it's usually around like teenage years, like, you know, middle school and the betrayal. It just severed the relationship. And then a lot of the times these kids went to like gangs or drugs because they needed to find someone.

A family. That they felt like they had lost. My supervisor would always say, I think this comes from AA too, like secrets keep us sick. You're only as sick as your secrets, they say. I mean, the effort they had to go through to keep this from me. I,

I know. That's the thing. It's exhausting maintaining all these. Your memory is not even good enough. Your memory can memorize the real shit, but it has a hard time remembering all the different lies. And so I've had to do a lot of that work, just like understanding what a healthy relationship is.

Sure. Yeah. Well, Nicole, that's a heartbreaking one, but I really appreciate hearing it. It's so common to grow up in that kind of web of deception and trying to figure out what's real and what's not real and makes you question your own, if not sanity, just your ability to

see what's going on and that's a very scary position to be in where you're like i'm not certain what's real we're all trying to construct some version of reality we can really believe in and maybe predict and in the absence of that is very scary for sure since then a lot of other secrets have come out too like i think everyone just feels kind of relief now everything can just slowly come out what i will say and this is kind of the end when everyone says like

Thank you so much for changing my life. Right. But I think I started listening to you guys around that same time. I do do a lot of self-reflection and I'm always mentioning arm tracks for like my therapy sessions with families because I learned so much from you guys. And I did ask myself, like, what is it that I'm so drawn to the show that

And there's just this familiarity for me. And then I realized, Dax, you remind me so much of my dad. Like he's so like larger than life and talk to everyone and always have so many stories. And he knows so much. Probably these past eight years now, that light he had has kind of like dimmed. That's heartbreaking. Yeah, it is. So when I listen to you, I feel like I get like a piece of the back, you know? Yeah, like a flashback. Yeah.

us addicts i apologize on behalf of all of us fucking addicts no i mean i found an addict myself and then now we're both sober together oh that's great well i really enjoyed meeting you thank you so much for telling us that story i know that's not an easy one i appreciate the opportunity thank you so much it's so nice to meet both of you all right be well and take all that bad stuff and be able to connect with other people and help them i think that's the big silver lining of all of it that's what i tried to do all right take care

That's a sad one. That's a sad one. Sad for everyone. Everyone lost in that. I know. That's the thing. From my point of view, it's easy to villainize the mom, but I can't imagine the mom was enjoying any of that ride either. No.

Well, parents have secrets, too. Yeah. And that's what we know. Kids have secrets. Kids have secrets. Parents have secrets. Grandparents have secrets. Babies have secrets. Do you think babies have secrets? They might be the only people that don't have secrets. No, they have secrets. They can't hide their secrets. They poop their pants and you find out. They can't hide it. Yeah, you're right. What if you went to change your baby's diaper and you saw that it was stained with poop but there was no poop in there? Oh!

They had like got embarrassed and cleaned it all out and put it back on. I feel like my baby would do that. I was so scared of being embarrassed. All right. I love you. Do you want to sing a tune or something? I don't know what the theme song is.

Okay, great.