Why the Pain of Financial Infidelity is Deep
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What up, what up? This is the Ramsey Show. I'm John Deloney, joined by the great George Camel. Live from Nashville, Tennessee, we are taking your calls on your money, building wealth, doing work that you love, and creating and sustaining and hanging on to great relationships.

So glad that you're with us today. We're taking live calls, 888-825-5225. It's 888-825-5225. We have a packed house out here in the audience. Good to see everybody coming to visit us here in, actually we're in Franklin, just north of Nashville. But we are glad you are with us as well. Let's go out to Milwaukee. No, no, no, no. Let's go out to Dallas, Detone, and talk to Cyrus. Hey, Cyrus, what's up, man? Hello, how you doing? Doing outstanding, my man. What's up?

Why'd you jump to that conclusion? What makes you think you can't crawl out of this?

Well, I've been working a lot, two jobs constantly. I'm not really able to get anywhere. Recently, about a year ago, I caught a case for a felony charge and I

I am still going on actively with that case, trying to get probation. So it's been very difficult for me to find another job now that my background check has shown a felony charge. So what are you doing now for work? Yeah, so I'm working at Amazon. I'm making...

about $4,100 a month at a minimum. I can potentially make more depending on if they allow me to get overtime or work a six day. I'm working five days there as of right now. Last year I made $60,000 off of it, off of Amazon alone. But I'm just like drowning right now with payments. And I did...

I rounded up all my minimum payments for all my loans and everything, and my minimum is $5,300 a month. And that's just on minimum payments. That's not including food or rent or anything else. How have you made it so far? What's getting you through every month if you're going underwater? So...

How did I make it so far? Well, I've been doing... Are you going further into debt every month? No, no. So I'm tapped out. I can't even get the debt consolidation loan. My credit is shot. What kind of debt is this? What is this debt, man? Can you break down the 160? Yeah. So I have a vehicle that's 51,000 I would have left on it. 51,000? Yeah.

Yeah, it's a Tesla Model Y Performer. Oh, not a Tesla. What's it worth? Yeah. Not $51,000. It's only worth $35,000. How much? $35,000. Okay. What else? I have nine credit cards that are total of $55,000 with the debt on that. Okay. And then...

And then I have the rest of my loans, which is $98,000, which is three personal loans and then my auto loan. Your other what? My auto loan. Auto loan. You have another auto loan? No, no, no. It's the Tesla. Okay. So you got $51,000 on the car, nine credit cards that are $55,000. And then the other, what is that? Another $50,000 or $60,000 is in personal loans?

No. So total with the car, it's $98,000. So it would be another like $40,000 in personal. Okay. Where did all this money go? What have you been spending on? So... We're talking $100,000 and just spending. Yeah. To make a long story short, as I mentioned, I had a three-year-old daughter. I was in a relationship with this woman.

Um, basically she was unfaithful to me. We broke up. Um, ever since then, I've been trying to honestly repair our relationship for our child. And also because, you know, it's a woman that I love and care about. Well, long story short, it's been years of nonstop, um, taking on her debts. Um, you know,

paying, you know, for food and basically living like two households the whole time. And, yeah, basically just... So she's been scamming you for this. I mean, she's been just leeching off you all this time, huh? Yes, yes. And now, you know, recently I got, you know, we, you know, I moved, we basically broke up again and I'm left with all this and I just...

She doesn't want to make it work, and I've been continuing trying to make it work for my child, and this is where I'm at now. Well, hold on. Making it work for your child is different than digging a $150,000, $160,000 hole trying to impress a girl. Yeah. Those are two different things, and you have lied to yourself for the last two or three years saying, I'm quote-unquote doing this for the baby, but you've been running around with your peacock feathers out.

trying to woo this woman. And man, she's been just happy to take your money, happy to take all your stuff. But it wasn't about that girl. And now again, I think you love your daughter. I think you're working as hard as you can. But man, you've got to let the fantasy of this woman go. It's burying you. What's this felony charge about? So it was...

She had a guy in my apartment for the second time. All right, let's do this. Let's stop there. I don't want you to say something that's going to get subpoenaed on the air. Let's just roll back to the money part. Is that cool? Are you living alone right now? So I was going back between my parents and her. I was in my car for a month. Last month, I was in for a whole month just because I couldn't go back to either one.

So now I am back with my parents. They stopped drinking, supposedly, so I'm there for now. And this is another reason why I was thinking about bankruptcy, just because I have a case going on. I'm an unstable household. I can't rely on nobody right now. I'm a worker. Two years ago, I made $1,000.

you know 93 000 working doubles when i mean i've been working non-stop two jobs for the last three years but bro if you if you if you make 98 three years in a row you're out no no not three years in a row no no i'm telling you like i want you to hear george and i say we believe in you if you make 90 grand for three years in a row just straight hustling you'll be out you'll be free

Listen to me. You'll be free. If you file bankruptcy, you're putting a chain around your neck and you're jumping into a lake. Yeah. The problem I have is I've been applying for jobs in my record with the felony charge. I got it. I got it. The deck is firmly stacked against you until you get that clear. 100%. Yeah. But I have never one time... I mean, I've never...

The guy who mows my lawn, I don't know if he's got to fill any charge. He just does a great job, right? I mean, there's work to be had. It's not traditional work and it's not fun work. And it is hard, grinding, hot, cold work. But there's work. What do you think, George? Yeah, there's no shortcuts here. We got to get your income up ASAP. I would not file bankruptcy. You can get out of this, but it's going to take three years of hustle throwing 50 grand at the debt. And that means getting that income up.

And man, you're going to have to get creative. You might have to get a roommate or two. Keep living with the parents. Do what you got to do. But do not throw that chain around you just yet.

Hey, when you go against what society thinks is quote normal, like avoiding debt, for example, it might seem weird at first and that is totally okay. We want you to be weird if that means doing things intentionally, including how you spend your healthcare dollars. And one way to be intentional is with Christian Healthcare Ministries.

CHM isn't health insurance. They're a health cost-sharing ministry that's helped hundreds of thousands of families like yours take care of healthcare costs without sacrificing their freedom. Find out more and join at chministries.org slash budget. That's chministries.org slash budget. All right, we are back. I'm John Deloney joined by George Campbell, 888-825-5225, taking your calls on money and work and life.

your mental and emotional health, whatever you got going on. I've got this QZ.com. Looks like an internet-y article, but here's what it says. It says, talking about money makes people more uncomfortable than talking about politics and religion, says the survey here.

That's actually been, George, that's been one of my personal experiences sitting with hurting people, man. I remember back to, I've talked about this on the show, I remember back to my practicum days when I was seeing clients. I mean, people would talk about every, everything. Their past, their future, like really hard stuff, partners they've had, like everything.

Did not want to talk about debt, money. It just was too sensitive of a topic. I think, is it too personal? Is there too much shame and baggage connected to that? Versus politics and religion, there's just like a tribe you're sort of connected to. Yeah, that's the only thing I've been able to distill down. And again, I'm just speculating here is one, politics, religion, questions about sex, intimacy, all those are, they're tribal, right? You can get on the internet and find a gang, right? Right.

When it comes to your money, when you distill all the way down, there's that one question, what are you worth? And there's just nowhere to hide. It's just you. And how much money have you earned? What vacations have you gone on or not gone on? How much debt do you have? How much do you owe? It just all comes down. And I think we put so much pressure on that one number. And here's what I hate about it. What?

I mean, there's an old saying among counselors and therapists, secrets will kill you, right? And so if you are out there talking about stuff and trying to get well and get healthy, but you can't, you feel so much shame around how much money you owe or I don't even know how this stuff works. And I wish, you know what, it comes to the mechanics of it. I wish people would believe me.

When I tell people I co-host this show and I text you on Saturdays asking you about a particular fund or I, you know, text or talk to Dave about this particular question, we're always asking each other stuff. But I think there's an illusion that if you have a show or if you're on the internet, you know everything about everything. So I feel embarrassed. I'm just not going to ask anybody anything. People just sit in it and they just keep making the same choices over and over. And they look up like the last caller and they're 160 grand in the hole, right?

It's a zoo, man. It's a zoo. That is wild. Yeah, I mean, on The Ramsey Show, we're trying to make talking about money normal in a good way. There's things that you shouldn't share at Thanksgiving dinner. It says here, only 14% said money is a normal topic at holiday gatherings with friends and family.

Don't go home. I think it should be lower than that. Yeah, don't go home and be like, all right, we're going to go around the table, we're going to pass the rolls, Aunt Janet, and then we're going to see everybody tell everybody what they make. Who has the most debt? Yeah, who made the most money this year? Let's go, Bill. Yeah, Dave Ramsey's not sitting around the Thanksgiving table talking about, hey guys, what's your favorite mutual fund lately? Let's talk returns. Yeah, and I guess he could go around the table and ask everybody what they make, but all his kids work for him, so he kind of knows, right? He knows. He knows.

But this is the survey said 62% of people were highly uncomfortable sharing their financial details with friends and family. 38% said they're comfortable sharing bank information with family members and close friends. That should be 0%. Bank information? I mean, that's private. It's like saying, well, I don't want to share my social security number. I'm uncomfortable talking about. Yeah, that's a little personal. But I do think we should talk about

money goals, money challenges. We don't have to get into specifics, but we talk about this with relationships. It's good to talk about money values early on. You don't need to get into, here's how much debt I have, here's how much I make on the first date, but it's important to see, hey, what was money like for you growing up? And I also think this though, George, I do think I can see money is such a sensitive topic that I can imagine going home and saying, hey, I had a great year.

And you got one family member that's like, oh, did we now? Oh, George is so rich. Right. Or that's immediately followed by a cousin like, hey, man, I need I need 40 bucks. Can I. Right. So I get it. But that when everybody's sitting on a table or everyone's sitting on a friend group and

is hold on to something like, hey, I'm scared, right? Or like, I don't know how I'm gonna make my payments or had a really good year. Can I celebrate with somebody? I'll tell you this, the first year on your past change your future at number one, it was a good year. I never had anything like it. I'm a cop's kid, right? My dad was a cop and a minister. My wife was raised by school teachers. There was a new year for us.

I called one friend. I was like, I just need to tell somebody. And it was a cool little moment. He's a banker, and so I can never catch him. But he was like, that's, but it was a cool moment to celebrate. And so you've got to have people that you talk about things you're scared about and talk about things that you're, that you can celebrate together. Absolutely. Well, I imagine there's a spectrum from if you're broke and you talk about money, there's a lot of shame. And if you're super well off and you're talking about money, there's a lot of guilt.

And so is there like this middle ground of everyone else is like, Hey, we'll talk about it. I don't care. Yeah. So I think for me, it comes back to, you've got to find some people. You've got to find some people and it doesn't have to be your family. It doesn't have to be your immediate group of friends, but you need to find some people that you can have conversations about politics, about your faith, about this one says 71% of people are more comfortable commenting on their weight. 81% said they're comfortable discussing their health issues.

78% said they openly discussed their political opinions or affiliation. 81% said they would openly discuss their religious views. And we ain't talking about money. Right? So we've got to have places where we can just fully let our hair down and say, I'm not all right. Or can we just cheer for a second? And there's a right way to do it. I personally, as much as I talk about money for work, I don't do it unsolicited.

Right. I don't just like hang out with friends and be like, hey man, let's talk about your financial goals. Where are we at? I only talk about money when I'm asked about it or when people are openly sharing and they're looking for an opinion. There you go. And I think that's the important part. No one's looking for opinion. Even if you're like the Ramsey, you know, diehard fan, it's not the time to just like ram it down their throat and be like, well, you better follow the Ramsey plan or else. Nobody's excited by that. Yeah.

Or meeting somebody at a grocery store being like, guess what? I'm a millionaire. And they're like, yeah, dude, I can't. I can't afford eggs, right? So there's a balance to it. I do love when someone passes me in Costco and they don't even say hi. They just go, paying cash for that? And they just keep walking. And it's just like an unspoken language we have together.

So great. Good on you. I was at a jeweler and the girl there. Oh, that's a flex. That's a, that was a good, I was getting a watch repair, John. Okay. Sure. And she immediately, it was like, I realized I was like a priest. It was a confessional. She saw me and she went, I have a car loan, but it's not that much. It's the only that I have. There's $22,000 left. I'm working hard to pay. I was like, whoa, hey, release the guilt, Elise. Come on. Well, so she's working on it. I gave her a book and she's on the path. And so now she reports back anytime I see her. That's great. Well,

Money confession. I won't even tell you some of the strange conversations I've had waiting in airport lines and in bathrooms. I talk about money. You're talking about mental health, relationships, intimacy, the things people probably share with you unsolicited.

I can't possibly be top sitting at an airport. I'm pretty sure. Not in a bathroom. Please tell me they don't do this in a bathroom. That's happened a few times in the bathroom. Oh, no. Like at a stall. I thought there was an unspoken guy rule. Bro, you just stare at the tile right ahead of you. We all know that. You stare at the tile. But I've had two different times. Someone looks over and they're like, oh, hey, you're on that show. And I'm like, just look at the tile, man. And they're like, hey.

Hey, you know, so me and my wife, and it's like not a good time. And they're always great. Like, oh, you're right, you're right, you're right. And I understand people get excited. But I have had one in the airport, in DFW airport. I think it was Dallas-Love Field when a couple came up and just started talking about their sex life. It was just live therapy. I looked at it. I was like, it's just not a great time. Like, I'm super – it means the world to me all of a sudden to the show, but kind of weird. And you could see it as they're talking about

Yeah, we just made this exchange super weird. We're just going to go to Whataburger and call it, guys. Good to see you guys. So lesson learned here. There's a context and a place and an environment, a group that it's wise to talk about this stuff. And then other times there's good reason not to talk about it. But I will say, you have to find people that you can talk about hard things with.

Period. I think that's why Financial Peace University has been so powerful over the last 30 years. It's called people into a room. You show up and you go, oh, I'm not the only knucklehead that made mistakes. Oh, okay. We're all in this thing together. Oh, we're not going to just sit here and ridicule each other's mistakes. We're going to just focus on getting better. Wonderful. And you get to weep together. And every week you walk in and you see an increasingly familiar group of people that's all doing hard stuff together.

And you'll celebrate together. And I actually, I think that's an unspoken curse on our current generation is everybody talks about their problems. Like, what happened? Who said this? Can you believe this? Oh my gosh, so-and-so's running for president. Whatever.

None of us or very few of us have people that can call and just be like, hey, can I just say something awesome happened today? My marriage is amazing. My kid's doing great. Can I just say that out loud? And we cheer each other on, right? So find people that you can tell the hard stuff to, but also find people you can tell the great stuff to, especially about your money. 888-825-5225. This is The Ramsey Show. We'll be right back.

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Hey, guess what? We just launched a brand new tour. Me, John Deloney, and my buddy Dave Ramsey are hitting the road, coming to a city near you for the Money and Relationships Tour. It's six cities. It's the raddest theaters in the nation.

And we're putting a new twist on it. Every stop is going to be an interactive night where you as the audience are going to vote on what we talk about. So if you see the list of things, we're going to put some topics up and y'all get to pick from 20 or 30. I don't know how many are going to be up there. And it's just going to be like...

All right, here we go. Let's go. So that way we don't come to you and play the songs that we want to play. We're going to come and we're going to play the songs that you guys want to hear. We'll be talking about money and relationships and so much more. Every night is going to be different. I promise you you're going to laugh. I promise you if we do our jobs, you're going to leave with some action items to go change your life.

and probably shed a tear or two as well. We're going to have a blast. We're kicking off in Louisville on April 21st, 2025, and then hitting up Durham, Atlanta, Phoenix, Fort Worth, and Kansas City. Early bird pricing is happening right now. Get your tickets to the Money Relationships Tour at ramsaysolutions.com slash tour. ramsaysolutions.com slash tour. And if you're checking this out on YouTube or podcast, it's in the show notes section.

All right, let's go out to Milwaukee and talk to Alex. What up, Alex? How we doing? Hey, how you doing? Doing all right, brother. What's up? I was calling because I do pretty well. I do pretty well compared to everybody else, and I just feel like I'm stuck. What does that mean? I'm a pretty ambitious guy. What is pretty well compared to everybody else?

I make probably close to $400,000 a year. Okay. That puts you in the top 1% of any human who's ever existed in human history. Yeah, I guess I'm just like an ambitious person, and I kind of feel stuck. I don't know what to do if I continue to grow. I've done a couple of different things, and they didn't pan out very well, and I failed at them. I've done a couple other things that have gone well. What do you do for a living? I've learned.

So my main income is I own a restaurant, and then my other couple of things I do, I also own a lube, and then I also do real estate. A what? A real estate. No, the one before that. A lube, a quick lube. Oh, okay. Now, I didn't know the industry lingo. Okay, that helps me. What's a quick lube?

Yeah. But oil chain. Quick lube. L-U-B-E. There you go. Yep. Yeah. I thought you were talking about those sleds that they have at the Bob sledding thing. I thought you were like talking about you're like French and you owned the Louvre Art Museum. Yeah. Okay. All right. Okay. Sweet. So successful entrepreneur. Yeah. Which one of these is your main breadwinner? Yes. The Russia. Okay. And what's your question?

My question is how I continue to grow. I've experienced a couple of failures in the last couple of years with opening new businesses, and they didn't turn well. I don't really understand, like, Roth RHAs and all that kind of stuff. Like, my concept has always been invest in stuff. What do you mean grow? Like, are you talking about you want to invest in retirement? Are we talking about growing your income? Yeah, in the medical community, unchecked growth is called cancer. So if you just wake up every day like, I got to grow, I got to grow, like...

You're going to implode. What are you aiming for? What are you trying to get to? I want to grow as a business person. I want to be able to create generational wealth. I know some people might feel like I've already done that, but I just feel like I still have so much more to accomplish. Yeah, I know, but it sounds like you're running from something. What are you running from? Because, listen, Dave Ramsey is worth a god-awful amount of money, and he is obsessed pathologically with helping hurting people.

And money is just the byproduct of this obsession to help people be free. You have an obsession right now with I got to get more and I got to get more and I got to get more. And usually for guys like you that comes at the expense of their families, of their romantic partners, of their kids, of their health, of everything.

And that's true. Me and my wife had some problems a couple years ago, and I realigned my priorities with my family, and that's gotten a lot better, and everything got fixed, and we're a lot happier. Bro, you know how I know everything didn't get fixed? Because I've been married for 20-something years. It's not like a car engine. It's something you continue to grow together with. What's your ultimate question? What are you running from? What are you scared of?

No, I think I just... What is driving the insatiable need for growth? It sounds like you watched a Grant Cardone video and now you're just like, bro, I got a 10X. I got a 10X. Like, what is all... What's behind this? You make $400,000 a year. Exhale.

I don't know if it's competition. I'm not envious of anybody, but I look at my peers and I feel like I should be doing better. That's the definition of envy. That's what it is. What I mean is, what I'm trying to say is I'm not mad at what they have. I'm happy for them and I'd like to learn. I'd like to learn. I like to hear people talk that do better than me. I want to learn. It's not that I wish them better. I want to. I'm angry at them. It's nothing like that. I'm competitive that way in this regard. Here's your homework.

You ready for your homework? You're not going to like it. Yeah. Promise me. See, I promise I'll do whatever you tell me. I promise I'll do what you tell me. All right. You just said that in front of millions of people. If you lie, you'll probably get struck by lightning. Probably not, but it's just fun to say that. All right. Number one, you cannot get on TikTok or Instagram for 30 days. I don't do those anyway. I'm just telling you. Number one, no social media for 30 days. Number two, you have to go for a walk with your wife in the morning or in the evening with no phones, no devices for at least 30 minutes every day for 30 days.

Number two, how many kids you got? Four. Number three, how many kids you got? I got four. You have four kids? How old? I got twins that are four and then a five and a six-year-old. Okay. When I ask you what you're running from, one of the most common questions I hear or common answers I get from high-performing dads, and when I say high-performing, high-earner dads, is that they look at the chaos at home and they don't know what to do.

They don't know how to be a dad of four kids. They don't know how to be a husband of a wife with four kids. It's just chaos. And they think in their heads, the greatest gift I could give my family is to not be here and instead go make money. And if you are making money to help people, if you're making money to change a generational situation, go get it. If you're hiding from your family, stop. So I want you to plan something with each one of those kids. And it could be five minutes or 10 minutes. I want you to practice plugging in at your home.

Do bedtimes. Not for 30 days, not for the rest of your life. I'm not telling you to, if anyone makes 400 grand, you need to stop what you're doing. That's not what I'm saying at all. But if you had a desire in your heart to provide good oil change services for people, to provide excellent food for people, I would tell you, George will walk you through how to do all that. But I don't hear that. I hear you running, dude, and running and running.

And those four kids at some point are going to start asking what was so amazing about that restaurant that he gave it up, gave us up for that thing. Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah. I just want you to exhale for a second. And dude, I want you to make $5 million a year. It's not, it's not about the money. It's about George and I can hear in your voice, man. You're not comfortable in your own skin and you're doing a pretty amazing job.

Here's the best question to ask yourself, Alex, because I've talked and hung out with all these people who are very successful young guys making crazy money, net worths of $20 million. And the question I think is so powerful for you to ask is this, two questions or three words, and then what? I make $500,000 and then what? I make a million and then what? Then I start five more businesses and then what? You see where that's getting to? There's no real purpose behind it other than, well, because more is better. It's like a toddler mentality, right? Yeah.

At some point, we have to learn also how to be content and how to have peace. Otherwise, it's going to destroy you. Against that $400,000, how much do you owe? How much money do you owe? I don't know what substantial amount, but it doesn't come out of my personal earnings because my real estate pays for it all. I buy property that I always put 20% down. How leveraged are you?

So I probably like all in all, like with everything, my personal and, you know, financial and work stuff, I'm probably like 1.1. Okay, here's what you're doing. You're sitting on a time bomb, brother. You owe $1.1 million. And I know the TikTok bros and Instagram bros are like, bro, you gotta leverage this to borrow this. The bank's gonna arbitrage. You're sitting on a bomb and you know who knows it? Your nervous system.

You're nervous. Gotta slow down, brother. Hang on the line. I'm gonna send you Financial Peace University on us. I want you to watch it. Control-Alt-Delete. Get some peace in your life. We'll be right back.

I've been doing this show for over 30 years, and some of the saddest calls I've taken are from situations that are completely preventable. Yeah, and what's so hard is I feel like one of those, especially the ones that I'm like, oh, it's terrible, are people that call in and their spouse has passed away suddenly, and they don't have life insurance. When you have to think through how am I going to pay my bills...

I'm going to eat next week. Yeah, in the middle of all that grief. Like it's just, it is, it's terrible. So life insurance is the one thing, especially as a mom with three little kids that I'm like so big on for people to get because it's inexpensive. Zander is the place that Winston and I actually get all of our life insurance. And it doesn't cost much because Zander shops among a gazillion different companies. It doesn't cost much. You just have to admit that someday you're not going to be here.

You got to say it out loud and you got to say, I'm going to say I love you to my family by taking care of them and taking the time to put this stuff in place. The cost of stinking pizza. To get a free quote, call 800-356-4282. That's 800-356-4282 or go to zander.com. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. I'm John Deloney joined by George Camel. Ramsey Show question of the day is brought to you by Y Refi.

Hey, we've all made money mistakes. If you have defaulted private student loans, we're not judging you. George might be judging you, but I'm not judging you. But we are saying you can do something about it. Contact Y Refi. Y Refi was created for people in your exact situation. Go to Y Refi dot com slash Ramsey. That's the letter Y R E F Y dot com slash Ramsey to check it out. May not be available in all states.

Today's question comes from Declan in Washington. Together, my wife and I earn around $300,000 a year. We both enjoy buying and building Legos together and with our sons. We have a large Lego collection, which I've been working on since I was a little kid. We're in baby steps four, five, and six. How much money is too much money to spend on hobbies like Legos? We've been spending $400 to $800 a month for the last six or so months. It's been a blast and it's provided some really great quality time for our family.

Great question. So regardless if you're into Legos, it's a good question of how much should you spend on hobbies in the budget? Yeah. People want parameters. They want the percentage. How much is too much? That's a good question for me. I like, I'm not a Legos guy, but I like just, I don't know. It's like buying stuff. So yeah. Help me out, George, on behalf of the Declans and the Johns of the world. Is there a percentage? Yeah. The bad news is I cannot give you a prescriptive percentage because that would be insane. Like,

Like if you make a million dollars, it's okay to spend $100,000 on your hobby. And if you make $20,000, you can only spend $200,000. So what I would say is if it feels like it's too much, that's probably a good gut check. Your body saying, hey, let's slow down. Now, these people make $300,000. They're in Baby Steps 456, meaning they're debt-free with an emergency fund. And therefore, if that's where they want to spend their money, that's totally fine with me. And that's probably a shocking answer. Because here's the thing. Some people are really into golf.

Some of these golf memberships, these country clubs. You're paying more than $400 a month for golf. It's $800 a month just for the pleasure of being part of the country club. No, that's what it costs to sneeze on the course. Exactly. $800. It's an initiation fee of your firstborn child.

I think. And so I don't judge people's decisions for what they spend their money on and their hobbies. What I do judge is if they're going into debt for it and if they're doing it at the expense of their financial future. There you go. So I would say $400 to $800 just on a gut check when you make $300,000 a year, you're probably making, we're talking, what, $15,000 to $20,000 a month. Yeah.

So to spend 800 bucks as a percentage, you're talking, that's a fraction of your world. So I would say if, if that's what you're into right now, go for it. It probably won't be a forever hobby that you spend $800 a month for the next 20 years. I also want to say this. Um, here's where I'm in support of Declan here. Declan did not try. Like I have been guilty of with like my guitars or other people with their beanie babies or whatever. Um,

is trying to say i spend this money but it's somehow an investment i love the declan just straight up said i love doing this with my family it's a way we bring ourselves together i've been doing this since i was a kid i love it we're pretty much loaded and is this okay and for me if there's there's it doesn't sound there's a pathology around it you're not trying to justify it you're not trying to like twist up some magical story about how this is all going to work out for you financially in the end

this is just, dude, I like doing it. We make a ton of money. I'm assuming you're putting money away in four, five and six. I'm assuming you're super generous. Can I tell you, here's a balance I've struck with myself. I still have a lot of, I don't know, purchasing guilt, if you will, just because how I grew up, we grew up with that a lot. And so maybe,

come up with an arrangement that I'm going to buy some Legos, but I'm going to give extra. I'm going to tip extra this month, or I've made some deals with myself as a way to... It's not real. I just made it up. It's just for me, but it's... I'm going to buy this guitar, but I'm going to be extra generous in these other areas as a way to balance the cost. That's a great point. And for me, I'm pretty goal-oriented. So if I had a mortgage to pay off and college to save up for, I would say, all right, we're going to limit this to $400 a month, anything...

above and beyond that, we're going to throw toward the mortgage. There you go. And maybe pay the mortgage principal first, that extra, before we buy the Legos, and whatever's left becomes the play Lego money. Becomes Lego money, that's right. And so I think that is a better approach to it if you did want some balance. And again, I see a mortgage payment. I see the interest tracking up. I'm less likely to want to go buy an extra $400. That's my hobby, right? Then baby step seven, now we get to do some crazy outrageous things because we don't owe anyone money. With your Legos. College is covered.

All right, let's go out to Pensacola and talk to Ryan. Hey, Ryan, what's up, dude? Hey, guys, how's it going? Doing all right, brother. What's up? Hey, so my situation now is my wife is no longer working full-time. She just gave birth to our second child a few months ago. And, yeah, we've got a two-and-a-half-year-old son already. Hey, Ryan, I get a lot of grief for interrupting, but can I interrupt you real quick?

Sure. Go ahead. Just no one's listening. Just me and you real quick. Let's rephrase how you said that. Okay. The way you phrase that was, well, my wife quit working. She gave birth to a kid, like as though she messed up. So let's flip it around. Hey dude, this is so exciting. We just had our second kid and my wife is, is staying home with the baby. Say it like that.

Okay. All right. So we just had our second child, and my wife is, for the most part, staying home with the baby. Amazing. That's awesome. Way to go, dude. Very cool. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, get to your question.

Yeah. So, um, we've got substantial amount of debt. Um, you know, we have been kind of living a little bit above our means, um, but it has been manageable when we were both working full time. Um, now I'm the primary, um, you know, moneymaker in the house and, you know, things are starting to stack up. Now we've kind of burned through our savings over the past year and, uh,

So now we're kind of looking at what can we do to, you know, kind of lower our monthly expenses. We've already trimmed the fat as much as we can. I don't play golf on the weekends anymore. We don't go out to eat at restaurants anymore. I've got our grocery bill down pretty low every month, but it's still getting a little out of hand. What's out of hand? Is it your minimum debt payments? What is your total debt? Is your wife spending a lot of money?

Yeah, so most of our debt is tied up in two vehicle payments that are both upside down. How upside down? Five grand or 20 grand? Per car, we owe $23,000 on it, and it's worth about $17,000. In my truck, we owe $15,000 on it, and it's worth about $12,000. Okay. And is that private party value? How did you get to those numbers of what it's worth? Yeah, private party value on KBB. Okay. Okay.

So we have a deficit here of $9,000. What's left in savings, if anything? Nothing. So there was about $4,000 in savings a year ago, and we've just been eating through that slowly, trying to keep up with things. We've got a personal loan that's $9,000, and I've got a credit card that's $2,500. And then we've got various little small credit cards that I'll total up to about a grand. I'm going to let George walk you through the nuts and bolts, but I just want to say this, and I'm going to get some hate for it, but it is what it is.

you'll have created a world for yourselves where staying at home may not be an option for a season. It's a math problem. It's not a values problem. It's a math problem. You'll owe a ton of money there. If she was making $4,000 a month and daycare is $2,500, that's $1,500 extra dollars we can put toward debt. You see the math there? Right. Thankfully, my wife is working part-time at the preschool my son goes to, so we get a discount there. Yeah, but it's not cutting it, though. It's not working.

You have a math problem. And it's because of the life you all lived before you had kids. Right, right. So here's a few things you can do. Number one, cut up the credit cards yesterday. Get on an every dollar budget yesterday. I'll give it to you for free if you'll use it. And you're going to list out your income, then list out all of your expenses. And anything that isn't food, shelter, utilities, transportation, insurance, or minimum debt payments, it's gone.

And on top of that, we need to go figure out ways to make more. And that might mean, hey, dad's going to have to go after work to deliver pizzas or do Uber or whatever overtime you can do in order to make this work. But it sounds like you guys have, my guess is about $40,000, $50,000 in debt. How much do you make? I make, with overtime and commissions, I make $55,000 a year.

Yeah, you've got to make more money, brother. 22 an hour, about 45 hours a week. We need to figure out how to create at least two grand in margin so that in a year we throw 24 at it, this thing's done in two years. That's the math problem you guys need to figure out, and that might mean she goes back to work for a season. Yeah, and it might mean you're working seven days a week for the next two years, man, to dig out of this hole. And for everybody listening, man, I'm telling you, the debt's not worth it.

This is The Ramsey Show. We'll be back next hour right here. Do you ever feel like you're finally making progress towards your goals only to get quickly distracted by something else in your feed? Well, that's why we created the Ramsey Network app, your single source for content that keeps you motivated. The Ramsey Network app is designed to keep you laser focused on reaching your goals. Loaded with over seven episodes,

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What's going on? What's going on? I'm John with my good friend George Camel and this is the Ramsey Show live from Nashville, Tennessee. We are taking your calls on money, on building wealth, on your relationships, on your work, whatever you got going on in your life. 888-825-5225. George and I will sit with you, we'll listen, we'll figure out the next right step. Let's go out to Phoenix, Arizona and talk to Cruz. What's up, Cruz?

What's minimum wage?

Um, actually I'm a little above, I think I'm making 16 an hour. Okay. Um, so my wife works as well. So I think our monthly take comes around 4,000. Um, but it's, uh, really expensive out here in Phoenix. So I'm, I'm wondering if, um, I need to maybe look into somewhere I can make more money or if I should move somewhere cheaper or, uh,

I don't know. I'm going to let George handle the dollars and cents, but can I just use you as a case study for what's going on in America right now? Sure. I feel like we've all been told, particularly those age 40 to 20, that you have a right to work whatever job you want to work and live wherever you want to live in whatever city you want to live, whatever neighborhood you want to live even, and that it should work out.

And I love your humility, man. You're doing literally the Lord's work, man. You're cleaning toilets and fixing light bulbs. And I was a maintenance man at a church for years. You're doing good work behind the scenes, man. And you live in an expensive place. And so now you've got this math problem, right?

Yeah. And it's frustrating because you like the work you do and you do good work and you help people out and you're working for a bigger mission than just getting wealthy. And you probably have friends and community and family in Arizona. Is that right? In Phoenix? Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I hate that for you, brother. But yeah, you're running up against, um, and I appreciate you just being open about it. Like you're running up against a problem that everyone's running up against, which is I wanted to live here. I wanted to do this job and the math isn't working. Um,

And George and I were just talking off air. George gets roasted alive for suggesting, well, you have to make a change. You don't understand. You're an idiot. You don't care about me. No, it's I love you enough to say it's a math problem. Like it's just a math problem. Just is. So, man, what do you think, George? What does your wife think about this? Is she open to moving? Is she open to you switching careers and kind of having a big life change?

Well, I mean, we talk about it, but we are really connected here. You know, all our families here, we have deep friendships at our church and, uh,

So it would be a hard thing, and we wouldn't know where to go. And as for a career change, I don't know what else I would want to do in life currently. Well, we can help with that. I'm going to make sure before you get off the line, we give you Ken's new book, Find the Work You're Wired to Do. It includes a Get Clear Career Assessment, and it'll help you get some gears turning about what you were really wired to do on this earth to make an impact.

and it might mean, hey, I got to leave the church. I'm going to go do this other thing. I'm going to get this education, this credential. And for now, it might mean I'm going to go to Target and pick up a job making $20 an hour instead of $16, because that $4 an hour is an extra $8,000 a year that we can use to get closer to our goals. So what is your next financial goal? Do you guys have debt? Do you have savings? Yeah, we got about a little over $2,000 in medical debt that we should be able to pay off soon, and a

Uh, we ran into a car problem and lost our baby step one. So we got to build that up again. But so that's it. You just have two grand of medical debt. Yeah. So the debt is not the thing holding you back. It's not like if you were debt free, we can have our best life. We need to get the income up in order to live. What's your rent right now? Uh, right now I got it at a 1200, but in reality, I'm renting like a little house from my parents on their property. And

So it's sort of like artificially deflated rent. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So let's say we kept this rental situation until we got the better paying job, got out of the debt, got an emergency fund. Is that a good exit strategy? I think, I don't know. I don't know. Just looking out here, cheapest rent you can find, $1,600 or $1,800 plus. For a one bedroom? Yeah, for a one bedroom. What does your wife do and what does she make?

She also helps with the church preschool and she works at a Starbucks and she makes probably about as much as I do. Overall, we bring in four grand a month. So Cruz, I'm going to speak directly to you because I love you, okay? You're faced with a couple of challenges that really are not going to move. It's just expensive to live in Phoenix. Everyone in America wants to be hot all the time, I guess. And working at the church, pay $60 an hour.

It's a job. It's not a career. And I want you guys to both sink your teeth into a career. Even if that's you, man, you're handy. You could go start a handyman business in Phoenix and charge 50 to 75 bucks an hour. Do you believe that?

I'm sure I could figure that out. You could even tell the people at the church and say, listen, I'm available for hire. I'm 60 bucks an hour. I do good, reliable work. I was going to say you can mow lawns, but the grass doesn't grow in Phoenix, but you can shovel rocks, right? But listen, here's the thing. You'll quadruple your income tomorrow if you do that. Can I just talk to you? Well, you call, so I am going to talk to you. Dude, you can't just sit at home and go, well, you know, you deserve more than that.

You know what I mean? I feel, I can hear you just feel trapped. You lost your mojo, man. When's the last time Cruz was real pumped about something? Fired up. What was it? Probably. Was it a project? Something you were doing? Back in high school when I was renovating the house I live in now and getting married and I got this job at the church and yeah. All right. Here's what you were doing. You were building something. You were building towards your future.

You and your wife go out tonight. You don't have a lot of money to spend, but go do something. Even if it's going for a walk on a park bench or something and y'all map out where you want to be in two and a half years, just pick a number, man, and almost be a little bit unrealistic about it. And then I want you to get on the phone tomorrow and call target and call Walmart and call McDonald's, call everybody because you can serve that church on a volunteer basis when you can breathe and

When your wife can breathe, when you got stability in your house. But the mopey, like, oh, well, I don't want to harm it. Dude, you're going to look up in two years and your problem's going to be here and you're going to have a kid on the way. Yeah. Yeah, I worry about that sometimes. Okay. Then here's what we didn't want to do. I want to stop worrying about it and I want you to take action, take action, take action, take action.

Okay. Five applications. But by the time you go to bed tonight, 10 applications tomorrow, let's see what you can cobble together work wise and just go make some money. And what you're going to find is I don't like retail. I love retail. Oh, this guy who I'm working for at retail needs somebody to help with a bathroom model. I can do that. And now you're off to the races or George said like,

man call somebody at your put the call out at your church i'm here to help anybody do anything after hours and here's what i charge i charge 40 bucks an hour and i'm the best there is and i'll be on time and i'll finish below budget man you'll have more work than you know what to do with but you got to go you got to go you got to go you got to go we can't want this more than you do hang on the line we're going to send you ken coleman's find the work you're wired to do be sure to take the get clear career assessment inside of that i think it will unlock some really cool things for you

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Box.com slash Ramsey. Hey, guys. Dave Ramsey here, and I got a big announcement. I'm coming to a city near you live on the Money and Relationships Tour with Dr. John Deloney. This is the most interactive event we've ever done. You get to decide what we talk about. You do not want to miss this. We'll be coming to Louisville, Durham, Atlanta.

Phoenix, Fort Worth, and Kansas City in April and May of 2025. Get your tickets and more information at ramseysolutions.com slash tour. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show, 888-825-5225. I'm John Deloney, joined by Jorge Camel. And hey, listen, you want some more money and less stress? Of course we all do.

But if you scroll and scroll and scroll, George, you get more and more madness and madness and madness and madness. And thankfully, you use this wild thing that's not available very often, which is called common sense and research and data for your new book, Breaking Free from Broke, which exposes the most common money myths and excuses head on, like credit card schemes and investing traps and mortgage myths and all of it. It's all the stuff they wish they taught you in high school.

Or that I wish Instagram got correct. Man, this is the financial literacy that you're like, oh, okay. Yeah. Never got this 20 years ago, but it's not too late to get it now. Or, hey, I'm fresh out of college. I want to avoid all the mistakes. Can someone just cut through the noise and tell me the truth? Yes. And that's what this book was. And

The reviews have been amazing, John, because people are telling me, dude, you convinced me to finally cut up the cards. You convinced me that it's not as bad as I thought and that I'm in more control than I thought. Well, it's one of those things where if you look around and everyone who's giving you advice is either broke or miserable or so anxious they can't breathe, it's like...

There's this guy smiling on the cover. Maybe I'll try that one, right? And it's actual truth. You'll gain knowledge and confidence to break free from a system that let you down. Here, can I tell you this? This is totally aside from this commercial I'm doing for your book. It's so ironic to me that people that get the most mad at you are the ones you're literally... You're like...

It's like their bike has been chained up to a fence and you've got the chain cutters and you're like, excuse me, please, can I free your bike? And they're like, no, no, no. And you're like, I just want you to be able to go home and ride your bike wherever you want to. Can I just cut this? And they're like, no. It's those people you're trying to help are the ones that get so mad. It is wild out there. But I kind of, you know, part of it, it's what Dave's been doing for 30 years, is stirring up a ruckus by telling people to live on less than they make.

And it really riles them up. No one tells me how to live my life. That's right. And so I try to do it with a dose of humor and self-awareness and get to the objection in your head before you do. And this book, I feel like, is the modern version of here's 30 plus years of the Ramsey principles to still down through this millennial sort of younger lens that isn't yelling at you. Right. But it's kind of a snarky like, hey, man, come on.

We can do better. And they still work. They still work. They still work. Still works. But ramsaysolutions.com slash door. What were you going to say? Well, we wanted to make sure this book was practical. So we included for free three months of the premium version of EveryDollar, which is our number one budgeting app. So you get to connect to your bank. You get the paycheck planning tool, all the fancy stuff the team's throwing in there. You get three months of it with the book. There's a QR code inside you can check out. So get the copy today, ramsaysolutions.com slash store. Click the link in the description if you're listening on YouTube or podcast.

And if you've checked it out and you love it, make sure to spread the word and send one to a friend who could use it. It's Christmas time. People are going to need it. Let's go out to Chi-town and talk to Chris. What up, Chris? How are we doing? Hello? Hey, Chris. Hey. What's up? Well, hey, I want to know a couple things. Okay. We have some debt. We have some debt. So finding out...

that as a couple we have about $575,000 in debt. I don't have a job. How much of that debt's your mortgage? Our mortgage is $332,000 and a second mortgage at $65,000. Which ones did you know about? I knew about that and I thought we probably had some credit card debt, but I didn't know it was this significant. Was this done behind your back or is this you're not paying attention?

I hear in your voice you're trying very much to not dishonor your husband by telling the truth that he borrowed a whole bunch of money behind your back and hadn't told you the truth. Yeah. Well, correct. And he also took out about $80,000, I think, in our 401k that he didn't tell me about. What is he spending this on? He is spending it on, I believe, our...

are paying, what do they say, robbing Peter to pay Paul. I think we're just cycling that. What did he use it to pay? Not this much. Cars, probably some vacations that I didn't really understand weren't

real money but credit card money. My daughter's at college and we're paying for that. We're paying for all her expenses. She's in her fourth year. She's a senior right now. But we also have a significant, well, our son is significantly disabled and he lives with us. He's 24. And so that prevents me from having income outside of the home. Is she a full-time caregiver?

Correct. That doesn't explain 180 grand of outside spending and debt. Yeah. Here's what you really need is for him to sit down with receipts. And here's, this is a hard conversation we're having and we're going through it real quick. George and I don't see very often that this much debt this fast is taken on things. Like you get what I'm saying? Like it's not usually like a couple of vacations and a new car. Right.

Almost always there's something nefarious going on. That's where I'm struggling. Is there an addiction? My head goes right to addiction. My head goes right to there's somebody else. My head goes right to there's a big gambling issue. My head goes to there's something big going on. And, hey, look, if he sits down and says, no, no, no, here's $100,000 in college tuition. Here's these two vacations. Here's these two cars. Okay, cool. Just show the receipts. Okay.

And you don't have that piece because the wool just got, I mean, the rug just got pulled out from under you. It really, yeah, it really did. So I know he likes to gamble. He likes to, you know. Well, you buried the lead there, Chris. There it is. Yeah. I want to see receipts. You're telling me that someone who likes to gamble, who spent and went $180,000 into debt, spent none of it on gambling. But what if it was over a period of about 10 years? Is that feasible? Yeah.

Anything's feasible. That's 20 grand a year. Of course, that's feasible. But how am I going to know if it's a gambling debt? Just show me the receipts. I have a hard time believing he's going to prove that there was 178 grand or whatever spent on, well, I used that to pay down this debt and pay the tuition and cover this cost. He's not going to be able to come up with it. He's going to get defensive and he's going to get angry. How did you find out, Chris? We've already been there. Okay. We've already been there. How'd you find out? Um,

But, yeah, he's defensive and angry. And then I finally pulled up the Wells Fargo app that shows credit reports and debt. And I was astonished. Okay, I want you to pull all three credit reports. You can go to annualcreditreport.com and do this for free. Don't pay for it. They're all free. And I want you to compare and find out just how bad it is. I also want your kids to pull credit reports and see if anything has been taken out in their name on their Social Security number.

Again, all this is free. Annualcreditreport.com. And I want you to hear the words that we, this is what we call this in our house and here in this building. We call this financial infidelity. That betrayal is that deep. Because now you've got a special needs son that's 24 and you've already been thinking about life after you guys. You're thinking about a special needs trust and then you find out you're $200,000 in the hole.

Right. And so we got to we have we have to have a come to Jesus truth telling. Everything's got to be on the table and we got to figure out a plan working its way out. And part of that plan is we are freezing our credit. All of it. Your credit. My credit. No one is taking out a loan ever again for any reason. It might be telling your senior in college you got to pay for the last semester on your own. Sorry, we're broke. You got to sell some cars. You got to sell the house. I mean, there's going to be some reckoning to this.

What does he make? He makes, I just asked him, $162 a year. Okay. But he's in sales, so it's, you know, fluctuating. It's up and down, yeah. Chris, I hope beyond everything that this is just the accumulation of a couple of grand a month over the course of 10 years. I hope that's the case. It would be very rare if there's not something else going on.

I love being wrong. I'm wrong often. My wife reminds me. I love being wrong. I hope I'm wrong here, but more so than I hope I'm wrong, I hope you get some peace in your life. Hang on the line. I'm going to send you Financial Peace University. This is 101. This is back to basics, and your husband's going to say, I don't need to watch that crap.

He does. He does. Because he's about to lose his wife over it, okay? Y'all watch these lessons together, and then I'm going to send you every dollar, the best budgeting app, and y'all are going to be able to keep track together on how these expenses are going to go. Full transparency. Yeah, that's it. You don't get to stay ignorant for another day, Chris. You're going to be very involved from here on out. We'll be right back.

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agent Ramsey solutions.com slash agent. Welcome back. This is the Ramsey show. 888-825-5225. I'm John Deloney joined by George camel. We have this rad new thing called the Ramsey network app.

And it allows us to do things where we're not censored, where we don't get throttled, where we can control our own messaging and our own words, our own content. So it's completely free. And we have early releases in there. We have special interviews in there. We've got all kinds of cool stuff. It's the Ramsey Network app. You can get it anywhere. But also it provides you an opportunity to ask direct questions that we can respond to. People try to call and call and call, and they don't always get through on the phone lines. But here's a place where you can leave questions.

THE

So here's a question from the Ramsey Network app. The question's from Thomas. This is going to be a fun answer because you and I probably handle this very, very differently. Very. I thought this is the question for John. And I thought this is hilarious. I'd like to know George's answer to this. While in baby step two, how should people prioritize emergency preparedness, such as purchasing generators, food, water, and general supplies for when it all goes wrong?

goes down. Actually, they didn't say that. For an unknown future, I added that part for emphasis because George... I think that's the spirit behind it. It's all coming down. That's right. And actually, as I say that in jest, I have stored food. I've got stored water. I've got a generator. And there's a hurricane of the century heading towards Florida. So this is a legit question. This doesn't feel like a...

And while we're at it, you know, the moon landing was fake and the earth is flat. Yeah, this isn't quite conspiracy. No, this is for real. I'm going to assume the best intent from Thomas here. This is a normal level-headed person. Correct, correct. So baby step two means you have $1,000 and a starter emergency fund, but all other money is going toward debt payoff.

So he's saying, hey, how do I prioritize things like a generator, food, water, supplies? Well, I would say we got to limit what we can do. We're not going to go build a bunker and spend 20 grand. But if you want to go to Costco and get a little emergency preparedness kit for 60 bucks, put it in the budget and go do it. So I would just say you got to limit

How much we're spending on this preparedness idea. Is this a can of gas in the garage or is this a $5,000 generator? There's a big difference. And I think there's, I love that George, there's some nuance here. So emergency preparedness started a week ago for people in the path of Hurricane Milton that's headed right there. Right. Right.

And so I would have considered that an emergency, pause everything, get water, get some food and or fill up your cars with gas and get some gas cans and go stay with some relatives or some friends in a safe location. So preparedness when it's acute, like man, you gotta do what you gotta do to survive and take care of your four walls. Preparedness as in maybe like me, you watch a lot of YouTube videos and got some good Instagram accounts on when it's all coming down, right?

for me, the most pressing emergency in my household was how much money I owed people that would come knocking on my door or take my house from me, take my cars from me. Right? So that is a bigger emergency. Number one, number two, then you begin to say, okay, do we have, I live in the country. So if the power goes out, I don't have any water. Like I got to go get can't like buckets of water to flush my toilets. Right? Um,

that's different than living in the city. So ask yourself where you are, and that's a part of living out in the country. And the other thing is, over time, yeah, you don't owe anybody any money. You're working on baby steps four, five, and six. As a family, save up and buy a generator. Are you going to have a portable generator or one you're going to have built into the ground that's going to automatically kick on? I haven't thought this through, John. Thanks for asking the hard questions. You're welcome. But again, here's what I want people to do.

Make these purchases intentionally. Don't make these purchases haphazardly from a state of panic.

remember when your body goes to fight or flight, when you watch enough videos and you start, your palms start sweating and your heart rate's racing, you're like, oh my God, it's all coming down. You're not going to make informed, rational decisions. And if you're still paying off your student loans, you don't need to have five years of food. You need to pay off your student loans. Pay off your student loans. And again, all this is coming from a guy that's got a generator and food and water. I

You know what I mean? And I just know a guy. And you know that. You'll never find me, George. You'll never make it. Here's what I know. Your Tesla will run out of charge again.

Thank you. It wouldn't make it very far trying to evacuate anywhere, unfortunately. So there's that. That's a great video. You just pile in the family. Let's go. Let's go. Pile in and it makes it into the block. Trust me. My wife was like, I was like, we got her a new to her car. And I was like, hey, you should get a Tesla. And she was like, we are not going to be in all like you serious. We're going to have a gas car in the family. That's a very anti-fragile, anti-fragile wife. Good for her. All right. Let's go out to Tampa, Florida and talk to

Jared. Should have gone to Jared. We're going to Jared. What's up, Jared? Hey, how's it going? What's up? Just calling in. First, I want to say thank you guys. Working through your guys' steps and working with Jim Stovall is what allowed us to get out of debt and have an emergency fund to buy the plywood and board up our house and evacuate to Tennessee. Hope you guys are safe, man. Are you guys out?

Yeah, we're in Tennessee right now. Good, good, good, good. I have family down there, but I'm just praying for them. That's right. We all have those family members, Jared, that just decide, nope, we're going to stay. So yeah, we'll pray for them. We will pray for them, pray for them. How can I help you today, brother?

Yeah, my question is just thinking about future family planning. My wife is here with me, and we don't have any kids yet, but I'm trying to figure out the health insurance thing. I've had people recommend high-deductible plans with an HSA, or there's standard plans, or I'm on MediShare. And so what do you guys recommend for as far as that goes?

Well, there's two kind of buckets to put this in. If you and your family are relatively healthy, then the high deductible health plan makes a lot of sense. And you get the HSA, which is one of my favorite tools out there because it's triple tax advantage. So the money goes in tax-free, it grows tax-free, you can withdraw it tax-free for medical expenses. So it's a really cool tool. And then like a PPO plan might be better if you go to the doctor a lot, if there's kind of chronic health issues.

And so there's kind of two buckets. If you go to, if you're like always going to the doctor, you might hit that out of pocket pretty fast and then it's covered. But if you never go to the doctor, that's also a bucket where the high deductible health plan wins. So it really depends on you and your family situation, your health. So what would you say is the status of your family and their health? Yeah, we're both really healthy. Um, we like to do checkups, you know, once or twice a year. Um, but just thinking in a couple of years, you know, we want to start having kids and, um,

Want to make sure that we've got help with that and coverage for that. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, the pros of like a PPO versus the high deductible health plan is there's a lower deductible and there's lower out-of-pocket max. The cons are there's higher premiums and there's a smaller provider network. So the high deductible health plan wins when you look at the premiums every month, but it does have a higher deductible. So if you guys can save up for that out-of-pocket max and be prepared for that higher deductible, then I think it's going to be a win in most cases.

And it's what I personally have for my family through Ramsey is I do the high deductible health plan with an HSA. I imagine John does the same. I don't know. That's what we do. And I'll tell you, Jared, if I was back running it back again, having little babies, I'm too old for that now. If I was having babies and I knew like you, I'm going to plan for two years from now or three years from now. My intention would be to go into that three years out and save up money.

And go to the hospital and say, what does the cash pay for baby? And they'll give you an all-inclusive cost. Now, if you have an emergency C-section, something like that, of course, it's going to be extra. But often they will, almost always, they'll give you a cash option to come and have a baby. And it's inclusive of the before and some of the limited aftercare. So I would have that conversation. But it might be just $5,000 or $7,000. And it's like, all right, we've got three years to save up for that. Let's head on down that road.

All right. And then as far as like the high deductible plan with an HSA goes, that high deductible, like we'd save up for that. And would that be part of the emergency fund or is that something to save up for separately? I think it's fine to have in the emergency fund. The chances of like the HVAC went out plus the deductible and all these things happening at once is very slim. But let's say the deductible is $7,000 for the family.

I would make sure to have at least $7,000. And when you have your three to six months expenses saved up, that's likely going to be $15,000 or $20,000. So you'll be plenty in the clear as far as that goes. Yeah, and George, that's...

And that's what we've always done is hold the deductible as a part of the emergency fund. It wasn't on top of the emergency fund. And plus you have the HSA to cover medical expenses as you begin contributing to that. Yeah. And so if you can, I say get lucky, if you can go a month, a year and not have to touch that HSA, that becomes a really wonderful cushion. Because you can invest it beyond the floor and then it becomes like a retirement account. That's right. Pretty cool. Yeah.

Hey, that's it for this segment. We'll be back in just a few minutes right here on The Ramsey Show. Hey, guys. Are you ready for the secret to help you reach those money goals that you've been dreaming about? It's simple. You got to get on a budget. With our budgeting app, EveryDollar, you'll get intentional with your money and build the habits that will make those dreams a reality. And we'll be with you every step of the way from your first budget to

to that retirement home on the beach. Download EveryDollar for free on the App Store or Google Play. Remember, today, download EveryDollar for free on the App Store or Google Play today. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show, 888-825-5225. It's 888-825-5225. I'm John Deloney, joined by George D'Alessandro.

camel the handsomest face in radio wow let's go out to minneapolis minnesota and talk to laura hey laura what's up hi what's going on um well first of all i want to say thank you um last year i worked through the ramsey plan and paid off my student loans so amazing i really appreciate all the work that you guys do how much did you pay off uh forty seven thousand dollars wow so are you do you not owe anybody anything anymore

Nothing. Nope. All right. Can we do an impromptu? You do a debt-free scream right here on the radio? Sure. Can you scream your head off? Are you in a place where you can scream real loud? I'm in my work parking lot. Oh, that'll do it. People already think you're crazy. It'd be great. It's true. All right. Count it down. You paid off how much? What's the total?

$47,000. $47,000. All right, we got Laura from Minneapolis paid off $47,000 doing an impromptu, kind of weird, screaming in her parking lot, debt-free scream, let it rip. Do I count down? Count it down. Three, two, one. Three, two, one. I'm not.

See, look at Georgie when coming through. All right. The best is you're watching on YouTube. The team zoomed in on the debt-free stage with the graphic and animation. Well done. Only thing that's missing was you. Yes. All right. So what's up, Laura? How can we help?

Okay, so actually, well, speaking of being debt-free, so I found some land recently, and it's a really good deal, and I don't necessarily have the funds for it. So normally I wouldn't even consider... That makes it not a good deal. I know, I know, but hear me out, hear me out. All right. So it's 20 acres for $29,000. Oh, that sounds so awesome. Yeah.

I know. That's what I'm saying. I might buy it. Is there bodies buried on it? Why is that so cheap? Well, I can't give the specifics. I don't want any adults to find it. Wow. Yeah, just tell me where the GPS coordinates are.

So it's like I've driven past this land a million times. I checked it out last night. I plan to check it out with the seller. I think the owner is just selling it directly. I'm planning to check it out tonight with him. And it's just a wooded area, a little bit of it. I don't plan to build a house on it or anything anytime soon. I would honestly live on it in a tent.

or, you know, to save quite a bit before, you know, building or anything. Then why are you buying this? Camping is a lot cheaper if you don't need 20 acres. Well, eventually I would like to. Have you ever lived in the woods? I've camped plenty. Have you ever lived in the woods? No, but I have considered it many times. I do. I do have a place where I rent. I do. And it's awesome. You live in the woods.

But it is not what you think. It's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I don't necessarily need to live there because I do rent for pretty cheap. So I could rent, you know, for a long time before building on there. But I guess the point of it was I don't plan to spend any more than the $29,000. I know, but you don't have $29,000.

I don't have $29,000. Can I give you a great mama camel wisdom? I'm going to say it in Arabic. I'm going to butcher it, but it's, and that's what this literally translates to. The camel costs one penny, and I don't have one penny. Is that not the coolest mama camel wisdom right there? So here's what that means. The thing that's the best deal that you can't afford is a bad deal.

Right. So you're going to make payments on this thing that sits there that you don't even use all for the pleasure of knowing that you could camp on it? Yes, but I actually, I can't take out a loan on it because I don't have... You're correct. Yeah. Because no bank thinks this is a good investment. And you know what the bank wants? Your business. And when they're like, oh, we can't take your business.

Then that's called a gatekeeper. They're trying to protect you from yourself. So your only option would then be to do like an owner financing thing where they essentially loan you the money and you pay them back and you just create your own deal. And I have a feeling you're actually going to try to do that when you go walk it.

You probably don't. So actually, I was wondering maybe if there was some kind of other option, like have people convinced owners to wait six to eight months while someone gives up for it? Yes, they have. They absolutely have. I mean, they've had this land forever. If you really convince them that Laura is amazing, this is who I want this land to go to, and then you work your tail off and go save up $29,000, maybe they'll call it good and say, all right, we're willing to sit on this land for 12 months, but you're agreeing to buy this at this future date.

And I'm making this up. Dave is a real estate guy, so I'm making this up. But maybe there's a contingency contract that says, I intend to buy this in six months, and here's my plan. And even invoke the name Ramsey. I'm a Ramseyite. I don't have the cash. I'm saving up like mad. I just paid off all my student loans. I really want this. Will you hold it for six months? And here's my plan for how I'm going to get $29,000. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. So there's a small chance. You're telling me there's a chance, right? Yeah.

Lloyd Christmas thought the same thing. But can I tell you something to give you some sort of optimism? Sure. I promise, I promise, I promise other land will pop up. Yeah. It just does. It does. I think so. I think this is a good deal. I don't usually find land that is cheap or I haven't. But also my friend just told me last night, she was like, do you need 20 acres of land?

Or would you be fine with a lot less? I think I would be fine with a lot less. You would, you would. But here's what you have in your head. You've worked really hard for the last few years and you're tired and you deserve this. And it's kind of a carrot out there and it feels awesome. And dude, I totally get it. I've got land for sale all around me and I can't afford it. And it makes me B-A-N-A-N-A-S, as the great Gwen Stefani once sang, makes me crazy.

But I can't afford it. And so I can torture myself every day by being like, oh my gosh, if I could just, I can't afford it. So I can go play with my kids. It's a better use of my time to go run around with my dog. Right? Yeah. Just don't make yourself bananas. Uh-huh. You know what I mean? And what are you going to do with 20 acres for real? Like, what are you going to do? Are you a hunter? Well, sometimes. Okay. My family hunts, so. Yeah. But I mean, that would be a lot more expensive than hunting on some free land. And what's the taxes on the 20 acres?

I don't actually know. I'd have to ask the owner. That's a great question to ask. What's the easements? What is the ongoing maintenance cost? It's right on land, or it's right on a road. Yeah, and what's the easement cost? And I don't even... You have to pay part of that. Yeah, it's just a lot. And I feel like I'm ruining your dream, and you're actually one of the people I don't want to ruin your dream. I'm happy for you. I wish every American could own 20 acres. It's amazing. You just don't have $30,000. Yeah, but I could get there pretty soon, I think. Okay. Okay.

Come up with a compelling story, get a guitar, maybe sing it to the guy. Maybe he'll hear that. Or you may take him out and he just gets really mad that you wasted his time. He's going to look at you and be like, you don't have any money? You'll be like, no, but I really want it in eight months. I really want it.

Yeah, but you don't have any money. Or it's a Christmas miracle and he gifts it to her at no charge. Oh, Christmas miracles. That's the George I know. I'd always ask, why are you getting rid of it? It's a fair question to ask. Why are you getting rid of it so cheap? Where are the bodies buried? What's going on, Buster? Yeah, there's like some secret... It just feels awfully cheap. I know it's Minnesota, but land ain't cheap these days. So like a grand an acre feels insane. I know, I kind of want to get it, even though I don't go to... You'll never find it.

Hey, for all of you listening to the show on YouTube or podcast, show's about to end. I want you to head over to the Ramsey Network app, totally free to download. You can finish the show for a distraction-free experience. If you want to go further with Ramsey, we pick the calls for you, filter by topic, and you can get all your favorite Ramsey shows in place. That's important. So if you want to go back and run a call back, or if you want to be like, hey, I need a call about buying land without a credit score, it filters for you automatically. You can get all your answers right there.

there. Don't miss what's coming up next and you can click the link in the show notes and go watch the rest of the show in the app for free. If you're listening on the radio, it's going to continue on like radio does. Sorry, John, I was distracted. I'm now on the Ramsey Network app. I'm watching you live. That's very meta. It's pretty cool.

I apologize. If you're wondering... I'm going to go now. Is it hard to work with Gen Z in the workplace? I'm not even Gen Z. I'm 35 years old, man. The answer is correct. You're like four years older than me. Whatever. He's playing Fortnite underneath the table over here. These Gen Xers, they're all upset because they're the forgotten generation. Oh, we just don't want the world to fall apart and you guys are hell-bent on VR-ing the whole thing. This is a good reason to tune in to the next hour on the Ramsey Network app. We'll see you soon right here on the Ramsey Show.

You're still here? What are you doing? You do know that the rest of today's show is playing right now over on the Ramsey Network app, right? All you got to do to finish the episode is search Ramsey Network in the App Store, Google Play Store, or just click the link in the show notes to download the app for free. Yep, you heard me right, for free. Then right there on the home screen, you can watch the rest of today's show. Bada bing, bada boom. All right, I'm getting out of here. Enjoy. We'll see you on the app.