Prepare For Your Future Instead of Paying For Your Past
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Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, this is The Ramsey Show. It's where we help you win in your life, specifically with your money, in your work, and in your

and in your relationships. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me this hour. 888-825-5225 is the phone number. 888-825-5225. You got your money questions today. George is ready to go. He's got a fabulous little corduroy coat on.

Why's it got to be little, Ken? I didn't mean it. Why's it got to be little? You know, it's a Freudian slip, I guess, but it's a fabulous little coat. There it is. I said it again. I got to stop. It's a fabulous little coat. George is going to take your money questions. We know how this show is going to go. Big Kenny boy is going to take your career questions and work questions. That's right. Purpose questions. That's it. You want more money? You need a bigger shovel.

I'm going to help you figure that out, and we'll team up together. We always love being together, and honestly, great corduroy jacket. Thank you, Big Ken. No, I got that out the right way. Big Ken helps you with the bigger shovel. I'll help you with everything else. Oh, boy, it's going to be a fun one today. I feel a great studio audience, by the way, out in the lobby. Fantastic group of people out there watching the show. Let's go to Natalie to start it off in Portland, Oregon. Natalie, how can we help?

Hi. Yeah, so I just have kind of a mix of career and life question. So currently, I am nine months pregnant and just starting my maternity leave today. And on Thursday, we found out that the mill that I work at is shutting down for good. Oh, no. Yeah. And so now I'm kind of

Trying to figure out what do I want to do with my life, like stay home, be a stay-at-home mom, start a new career. Okay. Everything, all like that. Yeah. Well, first of all, I'm sorry that the carpet has kind of been pulled out from underneath of you. That's not fun. However, let's just start by this. You're going to be okay. Okay? You've got to believe that you're going to be okay. So let's go back.

to before you got the news that the plant or the mill was shutting down. Okay. What was your plan before that? What were you leaning towards doing?

So before that, I was going to take the standard three-month leave and then come back and do a gradual return to work of like three days a week. Okay. And then kind of go from there. Okay. What were you making? Was it salary or hourly? Yeah, I was salaried. I made around $90,000. Wow. What did you do?

What was the role? As a supervisor. Nice. Okay. So $90,000, that's legit. That's really good money. And so your plan was, what was that going to look like financially if you were going to gradually come back? And I'm thinking through this because I want George helping me think it through budget-wise and what we've got to do. Were you thinking you're going to make X amount of dollars for how many months? What was that going to look like when you came back slowly? Um...

Yeah, so I was going to come back three out of the five days. So I was going to come back making about 60% of my salary. Okay. And that was kind of up in the air on the end date of it. Okay. So here's... Go ahead.

Basically, we've been following you guys for quite some time, so we can live on just my husband's income, but then things will be pretty dang tight and not really making much progress with our finances. Right. Where are you guys at financially? Do you have no debt in the emergency fund? Yeah, we're in four, five, and six right now. Right. All right, George, here's where I'm at on this. Natalie, here's what I'm thinking. So I think we go with the same plan.

It's just that we've got to find something while in the first three months becoming a new mom, and this is going to be hard. But I think you immediately start telling everybody that'll listen to you, hey, here's what happened, and I do want to come back. And I want to come back. I'm looking to come back three out of five days a week for month four and five of baby being born or whatever that initial plan was. I think you try to execute on that plan.

And so now the mindset is, all right, I've got a lot of experience in leadership. Let's just call it what it is. Supervisor role is leadership. You're making $90,000. That's very impressive. So that tells me, Natalie, that you've got a resume with some very valuable experience. And if the plan was to come back anyway...

Then I think you look at what you've done in the past in a supervisory role. And if you like leading and managing people, so I'll pause for a second. Do you like leading and guiding and managing people?

At times. As a whole. Yes and no. As a whole, looking at my job, I absolutely loved what I did and working with the people. I mostly dealt with the optimization and kind of like more of the tech side, not so much as like the supervision side. Okay, good. So...

So here's a fun exercise. Okay. And I'm not going to make you do it on the air here, but I would like you to do this sometime in the next 24 hours. I want you to write down specifically. I want you to write it out. What did I love most about my last job? And I mean specific. So you're talking about, I love the optimization. I love the tech side. I love da, da, da, da, da. And when you write down what you loved most,

And you describe it however you want to describe it. Here's what's going to happen, Natalie. You're going to come away with a job description for what you want to do with your life. So you kind of said, Kit, what do I want to do with my life? You want to do something similar to what you loved before. Make sense? Now, here's the key. The key is when you potentially look at other industries for you to remember that you've got experience and skill.

And that skill and experience can translate, in other words, transfer to other industries. It doesn't have to be in the mill industry. Does that make sense? Yeah. And do you like tech? Kind of. I went to school and became an engineer and didn't really enjoy that side of things. And so that's why I went into technology.

working at a mill right but you had mentioned you like the optimization and some of the tech side of what you're doing at the mill correct did i hear that right that's what i'm getting at so you want to start looking in other industries uh but let's do this really quick because i've got i got a gift for you i got two gifts but before i get to that um i'm just curious when someone calls and says i'm not sure what i want to do with my life or should i do something i think you've been thinking about something and so what if we removed all limits

What would be the thing that you would try? I know it sounds kind of silly, but being a financial coach, just because I've been obsessed with the Ramsey everything for the past few years and seeing how much it changed my life. My husband and I taught FPU, and I helped friends and family with FPU.

All things budget.

And then, Austin, we just released a new product, and I'm not saying it the right way, but we've got a new financial coach class that I'm a part of. It's a product that helps train coaches. I want to gift that to you, Natalie. So hang on the line. That just launched today. Wow, that's very generous. Yeah, so I want to give that to you as well. It's going to set you up well, and think of that as George and Ken's baby shower gift. What do you think, George? I like that. All right, hang on the line. Austin will take care of you.

For the rest of you, don't move. More Ramsey Show coming right up. Hey guys, it's Rachel Cruz here to tell you about a faith-based alternative to health insurance that can make healthcare more affordable. Christian Healthcare Ministries. CHM allows members to share each other's healthcare costs

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Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me. The phone number for you to jump in is 888-825-5225. The question of the day is brought to you by Neighborly, your hub for home services with 19 service brands nationwide. Neighborly's network of providers has trusted local service professionals to handle more than, you ready for this, George? Hit me. A thousand different services in and around your home. That's a lot of services. I can't even think of that many. I can't.

I could think of 50 services, not 1,000, but hey, that's why Neighborly is there because when one of those pops up, they're there for you. All you've got to do is visit Neighborly.com slash Ramsey to find and schedule service today. Today's question comes from Bethany in Georgia.

Right.

But he also talks about saving his allowance over several months to go to a concert. Uh-oh. I was under the impression that if you only plan on spending $30 out of the $100, you put the $30 into a spending envelope and use the rest towards debt. Can you clear this up for us? Uh-oh. Jordan, I feel like I need to get you one of those judge robes. I would love that. This feels like an episode of Judge George. A little gavel? A gavel? Why does it have to be little?

Why can't you have a full-sized gavel? A big gavel is a little bit superfluous. Superfluous? It's a little bit much. Oh, you think you're trying to overcompensate? Yeah. I think the gavel should fit the judge. I'm going to get you a giant gavel. Like where you're like this. It's like a carnival game. America wants to know. This is a spicy one. Well, the hot take is I think this is less about finances and more about their communication and expectations around this. So they have $100 each month, but...

but he's saying to her, you can't use $500 to go on this trip, even if you saved up your $100 spending money, but I can use mine saved up to go to a concert. Yeah, a guy wants to go see Whitesnake. And so she's saying, my understanding is if you don't spend all your spending money, it needs to be used towards debt. So can you clear this up? So the question really becomes, are you allowed to sort of not use the spending money and then use it for whatever you want down the road, or does it have to be used every month or it goes away?

So that feels like semantics at that point. And there's no Ramsey ruling on this that I can hit the gap. Right. So you know where my brain goes. Back to the old school envelope system, right? That Dave espoused for years. So if you had what was called blow money, right? This is like each of us gets some money, husband and wife. You get to go spend it on wherever you want, right? But there would be times where I had to go to that envelope and I had to use that money for something else that was a higher priority. So it feels like that's where we're at here.

Well, to me, if you said you can use this on whatever you want, as long as it's moral and legal, then she can save it up for five months and go to Florida. I feel like we've got a control freak on our hands. I think the guy here is like, do what I say, not as I do. Yeah. So if he's able to save it up for months and go to the concert, I don't know why she can't save it up for months and go see family. And listen, this is not just a money question. Can I just talk to guys everywhere? Okay? Dating, married? Listen, this guy's missing the boat.

What he ought to do is go, yeah, of course you could go see your mom. Why don't you go to the mom's? I'm going to go to the concert. Hang out with the boys. Time it perfectly. I don't know what his problem is. He's really playing against himself here.

This is a not a happy wife, happy life type of move. Well, and there seems to be an unspoken rule book that he has on how this should all go down. And so they need to be very clear as to what this money can be used for, what the stipulations are for each of them, and agree on it. That's what this comes down to. But I don't think she's in the wrong if she wants to do that. So, Judge George, what is your ruling? She wins. Bethany? Bethany wins. Yeah, I don't know what they say in court.

It's not a guilty or not guilty. This is more like a Judge Judy situation. I'm telling you, the husband's guilty of being a bonehead. That's what he's guilty of. That's my ruling. How about that? You can't go to prison for being a bonehead, though. You can go to prison because you're a bonehead. You do something boneheaded, and the next thing you know, you're on an episode of Cops. You do the crime, you pay the time. There it is. All right, let's go to Austin in Rochester, New York. Austin, how can we help?

Hi, I'm 19. I'm full-time, working full-time while pursuing a bachelor's degree online. I'm currently looking, my long-term goal, I guess, or short long-term goal is to buy instead of rent. I'm currently living with my parents. And I was just curious what you guys' thoughts would be in terms of saving up really aggressively for a down payment or, you know, sort of stepping back, contributing to a Roth IRA, that sort of thing, and maybe not being able to put a down payment down quite as soon.

So this is what we would call baby step 3B, meaning you don't have any debt, you have an emergency fund, and you're ready to A, invest, or B, start getting the down payment going. Correct? Mm-hmm.

And so you might be doing what we would call C. And so this is kind of a choose your own adventure. People can choose to invest anywhere from zero to 15% while saving up the down payment. So this is really about your priorities. And if I'm in your shoes, I would try to do both and get my income up to where I can fully fund the Roth IRA and it doesn't derail my down payment goal. Do you have a specific goal for the down payment? Yeah.

Probably around 20%, ideally, obviously. So what would that be for a place in your area that you're looking at? Probably somewhere between...

$40,000, $50,000 maybe. $30,000, $50,000, somewhere in there. $50,000 is your goal then for down payment? Yeah. So real quick question, George, here. Austin, what's your professional path look like? I know you're 19 and you're in school, so there's a lot that's up in the air, but what do you think that looks like? What's your expectation?

Yeah, so I'm not entirely sure, obviously, on that right now. I'm working in the state legislature, so I could keep going down that path. My degree will be in public relations when I graduate. So I'm not sure if I'll continue on that route or go into some form of nonprofit work. So I guess that's a little bit up in the air right now. Okay, but just for sake of conversation, George, jump in here. I'm going to hand it to you. I mean, you're looking at, I think it's safe to say, 40 to 60 students.

I think 60 is probably on the high end, certainly in the legislature. I used to work in the – so you're kind of the young legislative aide, and they don't pay you guys very well. And I remember those days when I worked in the Commonwealth of Virginia, the General Assembly. So I've done that. What are you making now? Well, he's in school. But you said you're working full-time on top of that. Oh, I missed that. So what are you making and what are you doing? Yeah.

So I'm making, I'm just about where he said an eight and I'm making at that job 37. I've sort of a part-time job outside of that as well.

which gets me around five more a year. So I land right around between 40 and 42, I think. That's what I was thinking. Because even if he goes into PR, I still think he's going to be sub-60,000 starting out. So I think that's a fair... Set the expectations. So what's he looking at? What's his play then for his mindset to do what you would have him do? Well, are you going to stay in your area, in the Rochester area? I'd say so, at least in the short to midterm, probably. When do you finish school?

anticipated to graduate in a couple years here because I'm doing it part-time, obviously, while working full-time. Okay. My plan would be don't make any decisions until you land a full-time job. So continue saving aggressively, and I think you're going to hit that right on the mark. Fund the Roth IRA for the year. Whatever's left over, let's put in the down payment. And then three years from now, you graduate, you got 50 grand in that account. Now we can make a decision.

But I wouldn't buy a home before you know what job you're going to land because you might find the dream job and it turns out to be two states over. Right. And so that would be my plan to save aggressively. If you can invest while I mean, at 19, you start to pop in these numbers and investment calculator, it'll blow your brain what that Roth IRA money will turn into 30 years from now.

40 years from now. So I would attempt to do both, but if you're more prioritizing the house, it's okay to bring down the investment maybe to 5% or 10% of your income, even 0% for a year or two. But even a dad, George, he's going to be way ahead of the game. He's going to be a multimillionaire. I wish I was as smart as Austin at 19. I was making bonehead moves. Yeah. I thought he was interning. I missed it. I didn't realize you were full-time in the New York legislature. Yeah, I missed that. That's really fantastic.

I don't think many 19-year-olds realized that they could get a job, and he's working for state representatives or state senators. What's your GPA, Austin? Do you know yet? Unweighted, it's a four. I'm not exactly sure what it looked like weighted. While working full-time. That is impressive, my friend. See you.

I appreciate that. He's at the deep end of the pool there. A four? That's what I got on a quiz. A one to ten, and I got a four. This guy's a 4.0. Did you just casually drop it out there? He's like, I'm a four. Well, parents always think, well, Austin, he's got to go do his schoolwork, and he can't work. I'm like, no, he's doing other things than schoolwork. Austin is more talented than I am.

We have to be okay with this. They're just people that are smarter, better looking, jump higher, run faster. And can't stop talking about me. I'm right here. Yeah, well, I'm talking about myself. The only thing you and I do well is talk. And that's debatable to some of our audience. That's very debatable. Some of our audience is like, yeah, I got a comment for you, pal. This is the Ramsey Show. We're coming back whether you like it or not.

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Hey good folks, the back-to-school madness is upon us. It's hitting us right now. We got travel and work and all these forms to fill out now and sports to travel to and on and on. My family's schedule is so packed and we haven't even begun talking about things like exercise and date nights and counseling and church and home projects. And those are the things that make our life even worth living.

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Call my friends at BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash Diloni today for 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Diloni. Welcome back, America. You're joining the conversation about you, specifically your life, here on The Ramsey Show. We're talking about your money, we're talking about your work, and we're talking about your relationships. All three of those areas are

are interconnected. And if you're losing in one area, I can promise you it's affecting other areas. So I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me. And we're here to take your question. George, specifically on money, I'll chime in. And I'm in the area of work. Specifically, you need to be happy at work. You need to be making the right amount of money at work, that bigger shovel to get through the baby steps faster. So

I want to help you there. And we're about ready to get to the phones, but what you got in your hand there, buddy? I'm staying hydrated today, Ken, and caffeinated. So I got my, everyone knows I love a nitro cold brew. I wanted to crack this on the air so everyone can hear the nitrogen escape this can. You ready for this? I love sounds.

Dude, beautiful. That's better than anything they could ever put on the show. Folks, that's real. If you're listening, that was not a sound effect from James and the fearless guys in the booth. That's the real deal. That's the sound of caffeine about to enter my veins, Ken. It's about to be a spicy show. I'm not a fan of that. I tried one of those once, and I felt like I was drinking the bottom of a shoe. Well, at your age, it's dangerous. My age? What does my age have to do with it? I mean, you know, you're getting there. Get down.

You're a year away from being able to get an AARP card. That's not true. Is that true? I think it's true. Can anyone confirm? 50 and up? You're on the cusp. My man is on the cusp. The studio audience is not sure.

But thank you, George. That's ageism. I'd like to file an HR complaint. Well, technically, 18 and older can open an AARP card, the discount card. So you're fine. You act like I'm ancient. I'm what we like to call seasoned. Wow. Huh? You like that? So are baseball gloves, aren't they? Now you don't know what you're talking about. Oh, Bobby the Engineer's got a cold brew in him. He's got one, too. All right, great. While you get caffeinated, I'm going to help Micah. How about that? Micah joins us in Dallas, Texas. Micah, how can we help?

Hi. So I was calling because I had a little bit of a career question. So my dad's an appraiser and a broker, and I'm about to have my real estate license. And I didn't know what would be the best financial decision to work for him or go and work for like an Evie Holliday or Keller Williams. Okay. Mike, I got to ask, how old are you?

I'm 22. 22 years of age. And so you are at this kind of this precipice of dad's offered me something or I can strike out on my own. Is that a fair description of what's going on? Yes, sir. Because I've been, they have rental properties too, and I've been working for them remodeling homes for about two years now. Yeah. So here's the question. I think it's pretty simple. What is your heart telling you?

I don't know. No, I think you do. So here's how I know this. So when we have big decisions like this, okay? And by the way, it seems like both are good options. Is that fair? You've looked at both of them. Neither would be fatal here. Yeah, so both good options. I believe that in situations like this, every human on the planet has a head voice and we have a heart voice. And the head voice, Micah, is always going to go the route of, is this smart? Is this safe?

Is that tracking with you? Yes, sir. And the heart voice always goes with, will this be fun? Will this be rewarding? Does that sound like that's true? I would say that my heart voice is a little bit towards which one is the best to make the most money. No, I know you think that is. That's your head.

Okay. And it's okay. I'm not, we're not going to choose voices. I just want to know which one is which for you. So when you look at the two options, which one, let's go the head voice. Okay. Cause the best one is smart, safe, most money. So under my analogy here, you chose, I'm listening to my head voice the most right now. Okay. So which one of these two working for dad or striking on your own for those two companies, which one has the best short-term

and long-term financial play for you? I think short-term, probably the Keller Williams or the Evie Holiday. And long-term, it would be the amount of houses that I would want to sell with a lower, I forgot the word for it, but a higher commission that I get to keep with my dad. So working for dad, there's more upside because he wouldn't take the traditional commission?

As a broker? Yeah. Okay. And long-term, the work that you're doing for your dad, is that what you want to be doing versus just straight up selling homes for Keller Williams, for example? So I just sort of grew up with real estate. That's what they live and breathe, and that's what me and my brothers in the prairie do. What we got into that way. I really like horses, but they don't make any money. Thank you for saying that out loud. I've always felt that way. Okay.

Well, so Micah, what we're trying to determine for you is help you walk through this fork in the road. And which way were you leaning before you called? Working for your dad or working for another company? I was leaning towards working for a different company just because I live an hour from my parents and drive into work every day. Oh, well, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I mean, so, well, let me just say this. I wouldn't make that decision without going, all right, if I moved...

and I changed my life to live closer to dad to make more money in the long term, I'd at least consider that option. Have you done that? Yes, sir. But most of my personal own rental properties are an hour away. Great. You've already answered me. So you need to stay where you are because of this other property, right? Yes, sir. I mean, again, this is coming down to what's the best common sense decision for Micah?

And I think I'm hearing go work for somebody else. And I think that's the way you are leaning because you just said you were. But I think you're questioning it because you're like, I can make more money working with dad. And it feels like you're making the wrong decision. Am I starting to get on this? Yes, sir. You're not making the wrong decision, George.

I mean, here's my thing. We went to Judge George. Let's say you tried this out for two years and you went to work for another company. What's to say you can't work for your dad down the line? Bingo. And your life doesn't change down the line. I wouldn't make this thinking this has to be the next 10 years of my life. I agree. And I think that will free you up to go, I know what the right next step is instead of the next 17. What do you think of that, Michael?

I think that's perfect because it's accurate. I think that's the play. That's where you were, and we agree with you. You have plenty of common sense. I would use it. I'd trust it. And you can always pivot back to dad. Okay. Yes, sir. Yeah, you got it. Anything else? No, sir. That was it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. Yes, sir. You know, here's the deal. In your 20s, okay, so the caller's 22. So we just go, all right, at 22...

I have my entire 20s for what I would call exploration. Now, that does not mean I'm off on adventure traveling the world not working. I'm talking professionally. I'm going to explore in a direction. That's why I created the Get Clear Assessment. I don't think every 22-year-old knows exactly what they want to do, obviously.

But I think more 22-year-olds, George, than we teach 22-year-olds to believe, I think more 22-year-olds could have a general idea on direction. So one of the things I've said before, and I'm curious to know what you think about this, because we have similar professional paths.

I think the direction is more important than destination. Absolutely. I would have never guessed this was the destination for me. I just knew the direction. And so I started exploring and I would do marketing and I was a musician and I got into PR and writing and I was trying to think what are the threads through all of those.

to where I can use those skills and talents and passions to do what I meant to do. And so, I didn't know my life zigzagged, which is most people. Right. It's not a direct path unless you're that kid who knew he was going to be a doctor from age eight. Right. For most people, they're meandering. They had a bunch of weird jobs and they went, oh, that was fun. Let me chase that down. But,

While it is a zigzag, I'd like to see people zigzag up a mountain. Intentionally. Yes. There's a way to do it. I'm headed in this direction. In this case, Micah is headed in a very clear direction of being a real estate professional. A lot of ways that Micah can go. But Micah knows I got a couple of options. And I think choosing the one in the moment that feels right for the long term. This is direction is the right play for Micah. And I'm so proud. 22.

and having a really good idea on direction. That's impressive. And a lot of wisdom and maturity for a 22-year-old. Very mature. I didn't have that. I'm still working on that. I love it. Thanks for the call, Micah. All right. He's George Campbell. I'm Ken Coleman. And don't forget, you are listening to The Ramsey Show. Quick break. When we come back, the phones are lighting up. What are you waiting on? 888-825-5225. You're one phone call away from some clarity. This is The Ramsey Show.

I've been doing this show for over 30 years, and some of the saddest calls I have taken are from situations that are completely preventable. Yeah, and what's so hard is I feel like one of those, especially the ones that I'm like, oh, it's terrible, are people that call in and their spouse has passed away suddenly, and they don't have life insurance. When you have to think through how am I going to pay my bills? How am I going to pay my bills?

I'm going to eat next week. Yeah, in the middle of all that grief. Like it's just, it is, it's terrible. So life insurance is the one thing, especially as a mom with three little kids that I'm like so big on for people to get because it's inexpensive. Zander is the place that Winston and I actually get all of our life insurance. And it doesn't cost much because Zander shops among a gazillion different companies. It doesn't cost much. You just have to admit that someday you're not going to be here.

You've got to say it out loud, and you've got to say, I'm going to say I love you to my family by taking care of them and taking the time to put this stuff in place. The cost of a stinking pizza. To get a free quote, call 800-356-4282. That's 800-356-4282, or go to zander.com. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. Thrilled to have you with us. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me. The phone number for you to jump in is 888-

825-5225. Folks, if you haven't heard, we've got a brand new event. I mean, this event has got that new car smell, George. You know what I'm talking about? Oh, yeah. And it's called Total Money Makeover Weekend, obviously named after the goat of all money books, Total Money Makeover. And the event is here on our campus. So in the Nashville area, it's called Total Money Makeover Weekend, May 10 and May 11th.

And some of you have been out there listening for a while and you just haven't jumped in all the way. This is the weekend to do it. You're going to get a crash course on everything we teach about money, brand new content from all of us Ramsey personalities. It doesn't matter what baby step you're on, George. This event's going to fire you up and get you through to the next step.

All of us will be doing live Q&As, I'm told, after we speak. I saw a preliminary rundown of what the event's going to be, and I'm very excited. Very different than what we've done before. It's very, very different. A lot of interaction. Early bird tickets start at just $99. Those will not last long. Only 2,400 seats. It will sell out. Jump on it now. If you want to get the best deal, now's the time. Get them at RamseySolutions.com.

slash events, ramsaysolutions.com slash events. All right, Miranda is joining us now in Vancouver, British Columbia. Miranda, how can we help? I was just wondering, I have two different debts that I'm looking at, and I'm wondering whether or not I should consolidate those debts just so it's easier to pay them off. What would make it easier?

Um, with, I have a line of credit from, uh, my schooling when, since I graduated in 2019 and it's starting to like this year, it, it started the repayments. And so it comes directly out of my account where my credit card, I've been trying to pay it down. I've been trying to do the first baby step and right now I'm struggling with it. So I'm wondering whether or not

I should try to figure out if I can consolidate those debts and then it's just a monthly payment. Well, I'll tell you debt consolidation is not the answer to the problem. We need to address the momentum, the behavior, and debt consolidation is really just kind of moving the debt around, putting it in one giant pile in a corner, thinking that we've actually done something.

Yeah. Okay.

On top of the fact that we didn't actually change the behavior. So what I'd like to see you do is lay this out in the debt snowball method from smallest to largest balance, break out every loan separately and attack that little one with a vengeance while making minimum payments, regardless of how it's paid and what account it comes from. That part's not that difficult. What's difficult is actually seeing the progress and momentum and getting on that plan and just sticking with it day after day, month after month. So how much can you throw at your debt every month?

It's so variable right now with my job. I work like my home base and then I travel nurse as well. So my income varies from month to month. What are you making in general? Between 44 and 55 an hour. Okay, great. So that's six figures. Yeah. And so making that six figures, how much do you have left over? Like what's your total debt that you have?

Around $50,000. So I have a credit card that has a $5,000 max, and that's $4,479 right now. Have you cut up these cards yet? No. I think that's the first step, don't you think, is to stop the bleeding? Yeah. Because then once that card's cut up and you close it, there's nothing you can do except go pay that off and never touch it again. Yeah. And so that would be my first move. Yeah.

But you're making $100,000. You've got $50,000 in debt. This becomes a pretty simple math problem when you can find the margin and do that monthly budget. You go, all right, can I throw $5,000 at this debt a month if I'm bringing home $7,000? I don't know what your take-home pay is. Are you doing an investing right now? No, I haven't even eaten. I don't have anything in saving right now. Okay. So your first step is $1,000 in savings. Can you do that on the next paycheck? Yeah.

That's the plan right now. I'm getting two paychecks from both jobs. And so I'm going to try to put $1,000 into savings. And I know that... Change your language, Miranda. There's no try. Say, I'm going to put $1,000 into savings no matter what. No matter what I have to cut from my life, no matter how many extra hours I have to work, I'm going to put $1,000 into savings.

And it was just poor money management over the past year. I had the credit card paid off this time last year and I put $10,000 into my line of credit. And what happened? If you had to really look at your heart and go, what happened? Why did I go back into debt after I worked hard to pay it off? What would the reason be?

I was working a contract that was higher paying. It was up to $87 an hour. And then it was just poor spending. So it was lifestyle. Yeah. You made more and then you spent more than you made. So it tells me where the things we're spending money on travel. We need to cut that. The only travel we're doing is for travel nursing. The only eating out we're doing is if I'm picking up food for DoorDash because it's my side hustle. Yeah. And you see when you draw that line in the sand, how it all changes. Yeah.

And that's part of the reason I want you to cut up this card. It has not served you up until this point, and it will not serve you into the future. Yeah. And so these are the hard choices to make instead of a shortcut that is debt consolidation that really just leads to people staying in debt. Yeah. We need to change the word, Miranda, George. Not consolidation, elimination. That's our word. And there's no, I wish there was some kind of life hack to just eliminate all your debt through one of these ads that you're seeing, that you're being marketed to. They're scams.

Yeah. The only solution is Miranda. So Miranda, I got to ask you, George just laid it out beautifully what you have to do. Where's your head at on this? Do you believe you can do it? Do you want to do it? Be honest. If you don't mind, be really transparent. I know that I have trips coming up that like for the

the month of April, I have one week that I'll be working, which I know that if I work really hard at this point right now, then I can start contributing harder to that credit card and making sure that I'm not taking any traveling down that point unless it's absolutely saved up for and I'm not putting it on that credit card. But even then, I think you have priorities. For the next 12 months, what if we cut travel and we just got rid of debt? Yeah.

How old are you? I'm 27. So what if at 28, you could travel as much as you want because you don't have debt in your life and you just budget for it and you never put it on a card? Miranda. From 28 to 68, you get to do whatever you want. Yeah. That's a nice trail. Like I want to start saving for a down payment on a house or just being able to- And you're in Vancouver. That ain't cheap over there. That's right. So Miranda, what needs to change for you to have a shot at throwing five grand a month? Is that even possible?

Last month, I worked a two-week contract and in it, that was almost $4,500 for the two weeks. So this is the shift. Mentally, you go, this is what I have to do and I can actually throw close to $5,000 a month and I believe you can do more than that, but let's just use that as a round number because George brought it up. That's 10 months. That's 10 months. You're done. Yeah. Yeah.

So I'm going to give you a tool to help you with this. It's called Every Dollar Premium. It'll help you make a plan for every dollar coming in, and that'll show you exactly how much margin you need to create to get to that $5,000. And you might see, oh gosh, I spent $1,200 on food last month. I need to do better at that.

And man, I need to cut down my insurance. I want to get some re-quoted on my insurance to save 300 bucks a month. When you start to get intentional about every transaction, you take control of it. It's going to be like you got a 30% raise.

Okay. So hang on the line. We're going to give you those tools on us because I believe you can do this. But again, it points to the lifestyle is the problem, not this debt consolidation as the solution. And so if you can get control of that person in the mirror, they're going to be very wealthy and debt-free very soon. Do you see a direct correlation in the data? And I know you probably see it from human behavior. Any kind of data that says that people pay off debt takes them longer to pay off debt once they consolidate? No.

Oh, yeah. Because they think they've done something, and therefore they let their foot off the gas. And you need to put it on the accelerator. So the data, this isn't just your opinion. The data backs you up. Yeah. The numbers don't lie, folks. Doesn't solve anything. But as I've said before, and I'll say it again, George, dusting this one off, numbers change when people do. Ooh, I like that one. So we start seeing some people change, we'll see some number change. Great hour, George. Thanks, James Childs. This is The Ramsey Show.

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, this is The Ramsey Show. It's where we help you win with your money, your life,

in your work and in your relationships. 888-825-5225. 888-825-5225 is the phone number. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me this hour. We love being together. We've already had one fun hour. We're warmed up and ready to go. I'm irritated and caffeinated. You're irritated and caffeinated. You need to gargle that cold brew right there on the mic.

I don't do that to America. They deserve better. It's the sound effect that America wants to hear, but the guys in the booth do not. We need healing, Ken. It's the last thing America needs. And I'm telling you, a good gargle sound effect will bring people together. It really will. Let's go north of the border. Ontario, Canada is where Rose joins us. Rose, how can we help? I've got kind of a loaded question. Uh-oh. Okay. We're ready. I'm hungry. I'm recently separated from my wife.

In the spring of last year, I finally had my husband removed from the house by police for a protection order. And I've been in the house by myself. I'm finally feeling safe. There hasn't been any issues since last August. But I'm wondering if I should buy him out or sell the house and divide the profit, mostly because I'm feeling safe in the house.

I can just afford it on my own, but I would be using up my emergency fund to stay in the house. Um, and I'm a little bit scared about moving out, um, to a different area and feeling unsafe. Why would you be unsafe if you moved out on your own? Um, my neighbors know what's going on and, um, I'm in an area where I feel protected by my neighbors. Um,

Are there any kids in the equation? No. Well, that's good news. Yeah. Why don't you lay out your financial situation? Because I think that the financial component to me seems on the surface, George, a little bit more black and white. Lay out your money situation. Do you have any debt at all? No, no debt. And you have an emergency fund. How much is in there? It's waning because it's going into lawyer fees. But at the moment I have

Let's just say about $9,000 in savings. And are you working? I do. I work full time. What's your income? I make $55,000 a year. $55,000. Okay. So with this buyout, you'd have to refinance and be able to handle the mortgage on your own? Yeah. With the current rates in Canada? There's $155,000 left on the mortgage. The house is worth approximately $215,000.

Although I've had real estate agents say we can get more, but the average I've been at, like assessment or I've been getting from real estate agents is around $215, $220. Okay. What are your chances to grow your income? I think I could easily grow my income. I'm very happy where I am at my work. People know what's going on, and they're also kind of protecting me.

So I've had a really good place of work for a while. All of this chaos has been going on. How long has it been since he got removed from the house? It'll be a year. Okay. And he hasn't pulled any stunts in over a year? No, he has. He's been arrested twice for breaching. The restraining order? Yeah.

Yeah, we called it a protection order here, but yeah, restraining order. And then a peace bond was just put into place. So right now they're not proceeding with the trial. He's taken a DV course, but he did have breaches until August of last year. And then because he took the course and he agreed to the peace bond,

which is like an extra protection, they're not proceeding. They're not going to trial with the charges. And it seems like he's willing to leave me alone right now, but I'm always worried that, like...

Yeah, I'm so sorry. Rose, I'm so sorry. The reason I'm asking is because I'm trying to, just from a common sense standpoint, if I were your brother, I'm trying to take on the role of older brother here. Well, I just keep thinking this abuse happened in this home, didn't it, Rose? Yeah.

It did. Yeah, I think we need to remove ourselves from the physical. Yeah, I would get out for that reason alone on top of the fact that you straight up told us you're barely going to be able to find a mortgage on your own and you deplete your emergency fund. So it's not financially sustainable and emotionally and mentally. This is not the best place for you. I agree with George Rose. I was going to say I wouldn't want my sister to add financial stress to everything else you're dealing with.

It just doesn't make any sense. The problem is rent prices are so high now, though, too. So I'm like, if I were to go in rent... Well, if you can't afford the mortgage payment long-term... Doesn't matter. You're going to get foreclosed on. Yeah. I could afford the mortgage. You just told us you'd have to deplete the emergency fund. I'd have to get $10,000 extra a year if I wanted to really be comfortable for travel.

And, you know, all those extras. Well, you're what we call house poor right now. You can't live the rest of your life because you're stuck making the mortgage payment. And so for that reason alone, this is a bad idea. But I want you to hear what we're hearing, Rose. And Rose, we're on team Rose. Okay, hear us. We're not, listen, we're not trying to disagree with you.

But you need to hear what we're hearing. And what I'm hearing is, well, I need to stay in this place that has all these awful memories and bad psychology and everything else that I cannot afford. And the reason I have to stay there is because rent's too high.

And that's not the... And equity, you know. You don't have much equity at all. And equity's not going to matter if you're... And if the refrigerator breaks, you're screwed over, right? Well, yeah, you don't have the money for the home repair and maintenance costs. You need a roommate.

That's what you need. That's what I was going to suggest is get a roommate because that's going to add to the level of safety that you feel. Cut your costs. And cut your costs in half. Get your life stabilized. There is a home in your future. There's equity in your future. So you sell this place. You each get 20K. Is it an even split?

Yeah, that's the hope. Is he paying his portion? My lawyer already gave him the separation agreement. They had already said these are the terms. His lawyer agreed to it. I'd get him out. And then my lawyer wrote up the separation agreement, and then he won't sign it now. I have no way of proving this, Rose, but my gut tells me that if I sold this house and I give him a chunk of money and he's not on the hook for his payment, it goes a long way to get him out of your life.

George? Yeah, you've got financial strings. Well, you're not giving anything towards the house right now either. Well, whose name's on the mortgage? Both. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. You have financial strings attached to him until you get out of this. And he gets out of it too because if anything goes wrong with the house, he's on the hook. So I think it's a clean separation. Yep. Judge George, give us a final judgment there. The gavel's down. Sell this thing. Move out. Get an apartment. Get a roommate. And you'll be back to home ownership one day. But right now, you've got to focus on what's best for you. Man, being a judge is hard work, Ken.

Not all it's cracked up to be. Glad you're thinking about you in this moment instead of Rose, but Rose has been through it. We are pulling for Rose again. Rose, we're pulling for you. I'll give George a hug during the break, America. He'll be ready, I promise. Don't move. This is the Ramsey Show. So here's a quick math refresher. There are only 24 hours in a day, so your business needs to streamline tasks that

that are time suckers and focus on activities that make money. So to reduce headaches as they scale, smart businesses use NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud financial system. NetSuite helps you improve efficiency by bringing all your major business processes into one platform. So join the more than 37,000 smart businesses like Ramsey Solutions, the

that have done the math and graduated to NetSuite. And right now you can download NetSuite's KPI checklist absolutely free at netsuite.com slash Ramsey. That's netsuite.com slash Ramsey.

Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. America celebrating President's Day, an unnecessary holiday in my opinion. Just a hot take there. Love my U.S. presidents. Can name just about all of them, but I'm not sure we need a day off. I think you're upset because you don't have the day off.

Could be. But you also love to work. I do love to work. That's Ken's thing. Thank you very much. I'll be taking your work questions because that's how we make more money and get through the baby steps faster. George Campbell will be taking your money questions. So we are here for you, America. Very excited. I was telling my kids last night, James, they have winter break this week. And spring break is just two weeks away. And so I was grumbling on the way into the bedroom last night that when I was a kid, you know what break I had? No break. No break.

Now we got winter break, spring break. What's with all the breaks? I feel like my kid's life is a break. Well, to make matters worse, you had no break uphill both ways. See, that's really funny. You think you're really cute with that. I thought that was cute. I'm just saying, we got too many breaks.

Too many breaks. Ken said, get off my lawn. We got smoke breaks. We got cell phone breaks. We had too many breaks. But I digress. We're here to help you. Even though I sound grumpy, I'm going to be happy to help you. You sound more like Seinfeld, but like the generic brand. You know what I mean? Like great value Seinfeld. Generic? Yeah.

With this sweater, there's nothing generic about me. I don't want to give you too much credit and say you're Jerry Seinfeld. That felt egregious. That would have been egregious. John is in Minneapolis. John, how can George and I help? Hey, guys. I have a question. Is it better to invest in a Roth IRA for my kids' education or open up a 529 plan for them?

Great question. I am assuming the heart of this question, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, is that you're not sure if the kids will go to college, if they're going to use all the money, and therefore I'd rather have it on the Roth side. Exactly. Well, the 529 plan acts as a Roth IRA, but it's for education. And the beautiful thing is with the new Secure 2.0 Act ruling, you can now roll over a portion of the 529 money into a Roth IRA if they don't end up using it.

Yeah, that's the caveat that I was wondering too because I feel that –

When, what is it, like 15 years? So when they don't use all the money, they have a retirement fund eventually, because they're 10 and 7 right now. So they'll be mid-20s, you know, when that would convert into a Roth. To have a Roth IRA in their name, it would have to be a custodial Roth, and they would need to have earned income.

Yeah, I thought the 529, if you don't use it for 15 years, or after you're done using it for like 15 years, it converts to a Roth.

Yeah, and you can convert up to $35,000 over to the Roth side. So I would just go with that plan. And number one, there's no income limitations or contribution. The contribution limits are way higher on a 529 plan versus your Roth IRA. And also the other piece of this is it's going to count as regular income tax.

So you can avoid the early withdrawal penalty using a Roth for education, but you can't avoid paying the income tax on that. And so there's another reason the 529 plan wins in my book for those expenses. Let me add another wrinkle to this, John. So just give us an idea. If the 10 and 7-year-old don't go to a traditional college university, what would you see them doing? Do you see them getting some type of training? And if that's the case, give us an example.

Yeah, their expectation is some sort of secondary education after high school, whether it's be a plumber, electrician, some type of secondary education. So here's the point. The 529 is pretty liberal in your application of those funds. And so any kind of trade school, certificate program, coding boot camp, it's going to cover all that.

And you can always change the beneficiary. I mean, that can be loose. It could be a first cousin. It could be the first cousin's spouse, aunt, uncles, son-in-laws. I mean, so there's a lot of options to still pass down this money and use it. So I would be less concerned about that and more concerned about what college is going to cost for any kind of education, for that matter, 10, 15 years from now. So much is going to change to parents everywhere of 7- and 10-year-olds. Hear me now. Listen to me later.

Okay? Think about that one, George. That'll take me a second. I know. I'll tell you this.

What education is going to look like for a 7- and 10-year-old in America right now is going to be dramatically different. Mark my words. Mark my words on this. I'm paying attention to it all the time. There's a lot of shifts going on underneath the surface. You'll see the occasional headline here and there about enrollment rates dropping because they are. You're going to see a lot of shifts over the next decade. I think it's going to be remarkably different. So just watch.

Stay the course. The 529 is a really good vehicle for all the reasons we just talked about. I've got one for my now almost six-month-old. Do you really? Yeah, very excited about it. Yeah, that's great. And I'm hoping family can contribute. Instead of birthday gifts and toys, throw a little money in the 529 pot. Yeah, I like that. A little 529 party. She'll be going to school debt-free. I mean, we know that 100%. But that's what I do personally, and that's why I recommend it. Yeah, I love it.

Let's go to Marilyn now in the City of Angels. Los Angeles, California is where she is. Marilyn, how can we help? Hi, Ken and George. My name is Marilyn, and my husband and I are debating on selling our condo and renting. Whoa. Who wants to sell it? Who wants to keep it? Well, we're actually kind of at peace with selling it, both my husband and I. So there's no debate. Yeah. I feel like George and I are useless, which happens a lot, by the way.

Okay, what's the reason you want to sell it? Okay, a couple reasons. Our HOA dues are increasing. We are now at $563 a month in HOA. Yes. Welcome to condos in LA. Ugh, HOA. That is correct. Ugh. Yes.

And also another main reason is we are in 950 square feet for three people. Ooh. Yeah. Yeah. One bedroom, or sorry, one bathroom, two bedrooms. Who are the three? Who's the third person? It's actually my stepson. His name is Clay. How old is Clay?

Clay is going to be 12 in August and we have shared custody. So we have them 50, 50, but it's, I'm worried about teenagers, right? And friends coming over and things like that. As a former 12 year old, I wouldn't want to share a bathroom with a 12 year old boy. All right. I mean, they're the most disgusting human beings on the planet. And I say that with love. I have two boys, but they're disgusting. All you parents out in the lobby with little boys. When, when he turns 12, he's,

Disgusting. It's disgusting. It's horrible. I have to go in my boy's bathroom with a hazmat suit on. George. Wow. I just needed to say, Maryland. That's an aggressive. Well, I was going to say, this is a good idea. In a thousand square foot home, four of us, my brother and I, my parents, we had one tiny bathroom we shared, and I'm saying we survived.

I'm just saying. It's not as dire as it sounds. So you're surviving, but I don't want them surviving. I want them thriving. Beyond the space and the HOA, what's the reason you're wanting to sell it? Pay off debt. We have 84K in debt. That includes college loans, $56,000, car loan, $11,000, personal loan, $17,000. Okay, so how much equity do you have in this house, or what will you net if you sold it?

$91,000 in equity. We would sell it for $455,000 and profit $63,000. Okay. After fees and all that, you've done the math? Yes. Okay. And do you have anything in savings? We have in savings about $7,000. What's your combined income? Combined income for last year was $183,000. Wow. All right.

Okay, I like your plan, but I have this gut check. And here's the gut check. You're almost going to clear the debt. You'll clear the car loan, the personal loan, and you'll have most of the student loan knocked out. Here's the thing that didn't change if you do all this. Your behavior that got you into this mess. You are correct. You have the sacrifice part down. Like you guys are willing to sell the condo to get out of debt, but are you willing to never go into debt again?

A thousand percent. And she just said something. We are totally on board. She said they should have never bought the condo. Did I hear you say that you should have never bought it in the first place? Yes, you are correct. So you're going to go rent somewhere in the area?

That is correct. A three-bedroom, two-bathroom is about $3,200 in rent. We are spending $3,100 living here in the condo. Well, I mean, you're just going to be paying someone else's HOA fee, so it's not like it disappears. It's built into the rent. But I think this is the best move for you and your family right now, and I'm proud of you. Yeah, I like it. But George is right. You better change your behavior, not just the numbers. This is The Ramsey Show.

So here's a quick math refresher. There are only 24 hours in a day, so your business needs to streamline tasks that are time suckers and focus on activities that make money. So to reduce headaches as they scale, smart businesses use NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud financial system. NetSuite helps you improve efficiency by bringing all your major business processes into one platform.

platform. So join the more than 37,000 smart businesses like Ramsey Solutions that have done the math and graduated to NetSuite. And right now you can download NetSuite's KPI checklist absolutely free at netsuite.com slash Ramsey. That's netsuite.com slash Ramsey.

Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. Thrilled to have you with us, 888-825-5225. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins us. We always love being together, taking your questions. All right, folks, a lot of you have questions about taxes. Taxes are confusing. My goodness, the U.S. tax code is an absolute disaster.

I mean, it's just unbelievable. I'm for a flat tax, George. Cross the board. I've heard you talk about this. Fair tax. Everybody gets one thing, but that's not where we are. So how do we win in today's crazy tax code? So this is a question we recently got from one of our listeners. Okay. We normally have someone do our taxes, but our accountant retired today.

I think we have a simple return. Should we try to file ourselves with Ramsey Smart Tax? Ooh. What do you say, Judge George? So this is tax software that at Ramsey Solutions we developed, and you can definitely use this if you feel confident filing on your own and your situation is relatively simple, which is...

more people in America than it's not. And so here's what I would say, get in touch with a tax pro, an actual CPA, if you had a major life change, like you retired, you had an inheritance, you adopted a child, you own a business. That's a big one where I go, hey, I'm probably gonna work with a tax pro. There's a lot of trickle down pieces of running a business that I would work with a pro for. Another one is you're not confident about filing taxes on your own. Just the peace of mind

Yeah. If someone else is going to handle this, that is a huge bonus of working with a tax pro. And then lastly, you want to save time and stress.

It can take a while to do your own taxes. So if you're confident about filing on your own, go check out Ramsey Smart Tax at ramseysolutions.com. And while you're there, you can find the tax pros that we trust at ramseysolutions.com slash tax. And I'll tell you, Ken, I did a post about this. And what was really cool was seeing all of the people who were like, hey, I used Ramsey Smart Tax for the very first time. And I can't believe how easy it was.

And I had used a pro for years, and I decided I'm going to try this on my own. And I used this the other day, and it was amazing how it walks you through and educates you every step of the way. It's great. RamseySolutions.com slash tax. And then again, our Ramsey Trusted Tax Pro. A shout out to David if he's listening. Sometimes he listens. In fact, last time you and I were on together, he was listening. So, David, if you're listening, you're my guy. Thank you. You're the man. I got total trust in David. I don't want to mess with it. You know what I mean? I don't want to go to jail.

I would not look good in a jumpsuit. You know? I can see you rocking it. I don't think so. You would hem it. You'd make it fashionable somehow. I'd do my best, rest assured. But that's not the place for me. You'd be hemming all the prison jumpsuits for the guys. Yeah, you've got to have a job. You've got to stay busy. You've got to find some purpose no matter where you are. All right, Karen is up next in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Karen, how can we help?

Hi, guys. How are you? We are having a blast. Can you tell? It sounds like it. It sure does. Good. So I am on this financial peace mission. I'm on Baby Step 2, working to change our family tree. There we go. Which brought the light. Yes.

My mother's situation. My question more is about my mother's non-planning and which her situation could become my situation pretty quickly. So I wanted to ask some questions about that. Okay. Tell us a little bit more and ask away.

Okay, so her, she's a wonderful lady. She's 83. She's independent. Got her sweetheart living with her. She decides to go back to college when she's 70 and gets her PhD in biochem, but she takes out student loans. At 70? At 70. She's a PhD in biochem. She's a rock star. That is fantastic. Yeah. Except for the student loan part.

Exactly. So she's been paying on these student loans, and now she's 83. She stopped working when she was 80 a few years ago, teaching at the college. Jeez, what a slacker. Yeah. And she's also got 18K in an equity loan she took out. Oh, no.

Has no retirement. She has just paid off her condo, which is good news. It's worth about $170,000. And she's on Medicare and Social Security. And so what happens if...

Something happens to her, she needs to be cared for, say, in a nursing home or in home care. There's no money for that. And I'm guessing, do me and my brother take that up? We don't have any money for that. How do we, is our condo protected from the student loan and her equity loan? Or do we put the condo in our name? Well, the home equity loan is tied to her condo.

Yep. And so her condo is at risk. That would be paid off. Yes. It's one of the scariest parts about these home equity loans is it puts your home at risk. If she can't pay that, they can take her condo away. What kind of margin does she have on her Social Security payments and her basic expenses? She gets $1,800 a month in Social Security. She has a contribution with her partner of $725 a month. Her student loan is around $300 a month.

Her equity loan will be about $300 a month, and that's basically, and then she's got a condo fee of $300 a month. So she's already $900 out, right? And she's making... $25? And she hasn't even had any food yet. Exactly. Is the sweetheart still living with her?

Yeah, he's a vet, and he is a little bit younger than her. Is that a girl? She's impressive. I mean, I'm sorry. Your mom's a rock star. Degree at 70, retires at 80, got a younger man in the house. Is he pulling his weight? That's what I'm concerned about. No, he's got so much weight. His kids are millionaires. They'll take care of him if something happens. But your mom's not involved in this picture.

Are they considering getting married at all, or is this just like a... That's what I'm trying to do, close the deal on that. I was wondering if that would be a good advantage. I know his vet, you know, he's a vet, though his benefits don't cover her or any spouse. That's what I'm told. Why haven't they gotten married to this point anyway? Just hasn't come up as... I don't think he wants to, and that gets awkward. You know, who brings that up, you know?

No, I mean, he would. I think if it meant something. They're so old. They're like, why would we get married? We're here. We're together. What's the, you know, why? I don't know. Well, the obvious answer is it'd be great for your mom. But, you know, again, that's kind of an awkward situation. So, yeah. So here's the deal. I doubt she's going to be able to pay her debts off with the income she has. Right.

She's going to be lucky to just make the minimum payments until she, you know, heads to the other side. Yeah, I'm not really worried about her death. I'm worried about what happens to her if, I mean... It's long-term care. It's...

Yeah, exactly. She never did that. There's a dire situation where you use Medicaid, which is not a great program, and she's not going to have quality care and limited options. Can they get an affordable long-term care policy at this age? Probably not. I doubt it. No, they cannot. It cannot affect them. Long-term care insurance, you know, they're going to factor in age and risk, and the chances of her needing a nursing home is very high at 83. Why isn't she living with Mr. Deep Pockets? Why is he living with her? Why is he living with her? Yeah.

Because when he looks at her, it makes him happy. Yeah, but he's the one who's loaded, right? Yeah, his health is, I mean, he smoked for 50 years and she finally got him to quit last year. And I don't know. I don't, you know, every day we think, is he going to make it another month? The reason I bring this up, we only got about a minute and a half, George, but I'm going, is selling the condo a good play for her at this point?

I don't know what it would do for her other than cover it when we weren't. If she ended up in a nursing home situation, the condo is useless anyways. That's what I'm saying. I wonder, can we compound? She's really healthy right now, yes, no? Yes, really healthy. I mean, George, I'm asking. If they don't have long-term care, I think sell the condo and use those funds to cover it later on down the road. That's what I'm saying. Could we invest those? Could we invest it? That's a great idea. You could. She'd have to then go pay rent, which she doesn't have right now because the condo is paid off.

And so there's an added expense now that she didn't have before. And so there's a balance here. Well, that's the hope. He's got to pay his fair share. We don't have a lot of ideas. And since he's got a better financial situation, if he loves her... How much could this place sell for? It's not going to create an astounding amount of income, even investing it. And so I don't know that that would be enough to cover all of her expenses with the added expense of rent. This is a tough one. There's not any really great, clear options.

Well, her brother is another option, too. Is it okay to talk to him about it? Yes, absolutely. We've got to talk to everybody right now. Get the whole family for a Come to Jesus meeting. Yeah, including the sweetheart. You know, let's go. We've got to help Mom. She's helped you. Get creative. This is The Ramsey Show. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show, America. Thrilled to have you with us. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me.

And the phone number for you to jump in is 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225. All right, now we go to Charlotte, North Carolina, where George's favorite superhero is waiting for us. Thor, how can we help? Hey, pleasure to be on the show. Thank you for having me. You bet. And I got to ask, Thor, what's your middle name?

My middle name is actually Thor-Dahl. Thor is short for Thor-Dahl. My family is Scandinavian. Wow. I would have guessed that part. So what's the first name if Thor-Dahl is the middle name? You go by Thor.

Well, the first name is biblical. We had to keep it balanced. So the first name is Isaiah. All right. Okay. All right. I thought I was going to get two great, like, Scandinavian names. But it was great. Thank you, Thor. By the way, if my middle name was Thor, I would go by Thor, too. You know what I mean? That's a good choice. All right. Exactly. Enough of the nonsense, but I had to know. I couldn't focus if I didn't get that out of the way. How can we help today? No, no.

So I have a small business. We're located here in Charlotte. We do event production, lights, videos, sound. And business has been good the last couple years. We have doubled our annual revenue year over year up until this year, and it's looking like it's going to be another great one. And what I am curious is, in y'all's opinion,

What is a healthy margin of money, or maybe a ratio would be a better term for a business to keep on hand or to reinvest? Because in our industry, it's all about growing your inventory. And so the majority of the revenue

does get reinvested back into the company. I'd say about 90 plus percent of it annually goes back into the company. But now that we're at a stage where we're not having to buy as much, how much should we keep set aside? Are you running this business debt-free?

Pretty much. We have about $12,000 in interest-free debt. Okay. And how much do you have in retained earnings now in savings? We have about $40,000. Okay. And how many months of operating expenses would you say that is?

Oh, that's over a year and a half. Oh, wow. Wait, I'm talking about, you're saying your entire operating expenses are a few thousand a month? Yes, I have extremely minimal operating expenses. How big is your team? I keep it as tight as possible, just me. Okay, I was getting ready to say that makes more sense. Okay.

Okay, I thought there was payroll involved here. Everyone else is subcontracted in on the show. All right, one other quick question, and George is going to give you your answer here, but you had said that up to this point it felt like you were reinvesting 90% of the profits into equipment, and now you said, I don't need to do that as much. Do you have some type of forecast for George on what you think that percentage will be this year?

I would say this year we would probably only need to reinvest 40 to 50% of gross earnings. Now we can invest more and probably some context. I am big on tax planning. So I,

spend as much tax deductible income as possible to avoid paying taxes at the end of the year. And that's really where the question comes in is, do I continue doing that? Do I continue keeping my tax payments as low as possible? Or do we start to hold on? At what point do you start to hold on to the money, if that makes sense? And just...

Well, we may have different schools of thought here. I go by the Entree Leadership School of Thought, which is how Dave Ramsey built this place from a card table in his living room to the empire it is today. And one of the principles there is start and run your business completely debt-free. And so if I'm in your shoes, I'm going to use 12 of that 40 to pay off all the debt today and never go into debt again because you don't need to. You're crushing it.

Oh, absolutely. And the other thing is we never spend to save at Ramsey. That doesn't make any sense to me. If I can challenge you, Thor, I, as a small business guy, I hate taxes with a, trust me, I hate taxes more than George hates taxes. Tell him, George. This man is like, if he could go back to the Boston Tea Party, just throw some tea overboard, he would. If he could use a time machine, that's where he'd go. Believe me, I would. But at the same time, I'd be right there next to you. I know, but I would not agree with what you just said. And I want to challenge that for a moment.

Because this idea that I've got to spend as much money as I possibly can to avoid taxes makes no sense. I'd rather save as much as I possibly could, realizing that taxes are a necessary evil. And I've got a good tax pro who's going to help me save. But I'm not going to go spend a dollar to save a dollar in taxes. It doesn't make any sense to me. Do you understand what I'm getting at?

Believe me, I completely understand. Part of the beauty of this particular industry, though, is that to a certain extent, there's always additional equipment you can purchase and rent and make additional money on. And so it is it is easy, easier, I would say, than it's not like we're going out and making unnecessary purchases. But it's easy. They're easy purchases to justify.

But you don't necessarily have to make them. That's what I'm saying. That's the equipment that you actually need instead of just going buy a $40,000 toy because you could potentially write it off. Because you could justify it. The very word justify tells you where you're at. So, listen, I'm not going to try to preach at you. I just wanted to point that out. I think it's a misguided policy for somebody who, in your case, could be really well off financially, George. How would he do that? What would we tell him to do? Well, number one, pay off the debt.

Number two, it sounds like you have plenty of operating expenses, retained earnings. We would go six months is what you want to aim for for retained earnings.

And then you were talking about investing back into the business, saving up for larger purchases. I would separate that out. I would not use your retained earnings for that. Instead, I would do what we call a sinking fund. And so if you know there's a $10,000 item you want to purchase, well, let's put money away, $1,000 a month, for example, so in 10 months we can make that purchase when we need to. And I would do all of this with a high-yield savings account for your business. Yep. Okay, very.

Very interesting. And then obviously safer taxes. It sounds like you're on top of that, but make sure you're putting money aside to pay your taxes. Do you do it quarterly? We do not currently do quarterly, but this year we are. So we haven't up through the 2023 tax season, but we are 2020. So you may want to set aside 25% into a separate savings account and then pay quarterly and pull it out of there to cover your taxes so you don't have a big burden at the end of the year.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

No. Yes and no. No, you have not covered Thor. Trick question. I tricked you and you're trying to get out of it. Here's the point. No, no, no, no. I'm 100% with you. Cash is definitely king. But, you know, in our industry, the kings are the ones with the biggest inventory. Here's a question, though. I don't know about your industry, Thor, but could you buy used equipment that's cheaper and still make the same amount of money? Exactly.

That's exactly what we do. Which is great. All I'm saying is, Thor, I know you know what you're doing. I'm not questioning that you know what you're doing. I'm just saying that you yourself said, I don't need as much equipment this year. And I'm saying when you are in a season like this where you don't need as much, stack the cash. Then when you got to buy, buy with cash. That's all I'm getting at. I wanted to drive that home with you because you're going to be really wealthy if you figure that out.

Very interesting. The other thing you can do is upgrade your own life. Are you paying yourself first? Very, very little. That's the other thing. I take almost no salary. I'm in T. Okay, now you understand where I'm driving. Thor, you got to be making some dough, man. You're working too hard.

Well, I've always seen it. I've always felt like I'm making money if the business is making money because I own the whole business. You know what I mean? So I've never... I've got news for you, Thor. I understand, but that doesn't equate to what's in your actual personal bank account. Am I right, George? Exactly. Absolutely.

A business can make bank and you can take home very little of it. So I would pay yourself first here a living wage, and it sounds like you need to upgrade that. And the other thing I'll point you to is a great free resource called Entree Leader's Guide to Business Finances. And anyone out there, if you've got a small business, even a larger business, check it out. Go to entreeleadership.com slash finances and download that for free. It's going to show you the same principles we use at Ramsey to run this place debt-free. All right.

I think Thor's still not sure. I think he's hearing what we're saying. He's not listening. We stuck to our guns. You're not going to be an Avenger doing it your way, pal. You do it our way, watch out. He's never going to live that day. I had to say it. I couldn't not say it. Great hour, George Campbell. I want to say thanks to our fearless eater, James Childs. He's enjoying a snack in the control room. And thank you, America. This is The Ramsey Show.

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, this is The Ramsey Show. It's where we help you win in your life. Winning in your money, winning in your work, and winning in your relationships is the formula. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me this hour. The phone number to jump in is 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225. Let's stay right here in our neck of the woods, George. Nashville, Tennessee is where Megan awaits. Megan, how can we help?

Hi, how are you guys? We're having a blast. How are you today? Good, good. I have a question about some properties that we own and just kind of looking for advice on, I think, whether to keep or to try to sell and get rid of them. Okay. So my husband and I have moved around a little bit, and so we currently will be up to three houses now. And as we've moved, we're renting out to a long-term rental here. Okay.

And, um, I guess I'm just kind of thinking, you know, we, we didn't pay for any of these, I guess, investment properties with cash. And so we do still have mortgage, you know, so now we have three mortgages and I'm wondering, you know, is it better to keep them and just continue to have renters, you know, pay our mortgage for us? Um, or to, or is it, you know, causing us more harm, you know? How many of the three are, are all three of these out of state?

Yeah, so we lived in Georgia and Tennessee, so we have houses there, and then moving to New York now. So that would be our last stop. Yeah, so we're getting ready to leave this Tennessee house, and I think as we're going to list it and rent it, I'm thinking to myself, is this a good idea? No. Should we? No.

All right, so let's do this real quick. Tell me how much you owe on the Georgia house and what you think you could sell it for. Give me the first part. How much do you owe on it? Yeah, so that's the thing. All three of the, or I guess the two that we would want to sell, I don't think we would, you know, with the cost to sell them, I don't really think we would really make a profit. So you have very little equity. You'd break even. Yeah. So break even on Georgia and Tennessee. Yeah.

I think we'd break even on Georgia. If that, on Tennessee, we may owe a little bit because we did kind of move here. And what's New York? What kind of house are we getting in New York? Well, so that one, that's more of a forever home. So that one's a bit bigger. And we plan to stay there and not rent that one out. So that one we definitely want to keep. So you already have a property in New York?

We're closing on it, yeah. And that's your third property? Just haven't moved in yet. Yeah. But it's not a rental. That will be your primary residence going forward. Correct. This is a no-brainer to me, George. Yeah, I'm selling both of these. Number one, it's never wise to be a long-distance landlord. And the way we look at it is, you live in New York. Would you go out and buy a property in Georgia? Right, no. And so we do actually have a property manager for our house in Georgia that we pay about...

$300 a month, I think. Well, I'm guessing because you have no equity, this thing is barely cash flowing, if it is at all, after all of your expenses. So the first, the house in Georgia is actually technically two properties. There's like a cottage house in the back. And so we do kind of have a bonus there. The first year, or one year, we were actually profiting about $600 a month on it, just with the two incomes. Since then, we did lower one of the rents. And so it's about $300 a month that we are profiting.

I guess you could say profiting, but I know... No, no chance. I could go work part-time and make $300 a month. I don't think this is worth it for your sanity, your time, or the money. And so for those reasons, I'm out. I'm going to sell both of these and just start fresh in New York. And I'm guessing you've got a big mortgage on this New York house? We do, yeah. How much? It's about $500. And what do you guys make a year? Let's say we sold these condos. What's your actual income going to be in New York? Yeah, take home about...

120. Okay. I mean, even that feels tight just covering the New York mortgage. That feels really tight. Yeah. I think that was just kind of the decision to not want to, you know, we've moved so many times. We don't want to move again and we wanted to find the forever home. You don't have to find the forever home in the forever place. Right. What are you guys putting down on this New York property? What's the down payment?

About $100,000. Okay. So it's a $600,000 property. You put down $100,000. You took on the $500,000 mortgage. What's the mortgage compared to your monthly take-home pay? So the mortgage is about, yes, about 40%. Goodness. You guys like being stressed, huh, when it comes to houses and mortgages. You guys love it.

Yeah, I guess so. I mean, in the moment, buying the first two, it seemed like we were living there, so it didn't sound like we were trying to buy an investment property. We were just kind of living in it. And then when we moved from the first one, the mortgage was paid and it was as if we didn't even...

I mean, not fully know it was there. We, of course, knew it was there, so it didn't seem like a lot. But you guys are working really hard with not much to show for it. You're making six figures. You're running all these properties, and you still have a mortgage payment that's 40% of your take-home pay, and you still got to live your life. And you got to pay off. You're going to lose money on the Tennessee house. You're going to have to pay something. You're going to have to come out of pocket. Do you have any money in savings? What was that? I'm sorry? Do you have money in savings? We do, yeah. How much? About $30,000. Okay. Okay.

Well, I'm going to use that money to cover the difference, if needed, when you're selling these places. And then I'm going to restart the baby steps, which means pay off all consumer debt. Do you have any consumer debt outside of mortgages?

We don't know. Just finished paying off my student loans. Oh, good for you. So whatever you guys need after you sort the dust settles on this, you're going to build up a three to six month emergency fund, then begin investing 15%. Whatever money's left over, which it doesn't sound like there will be much, we'd throw at the house to get this mortgage paid off early.

Okay. And so I guess my question would be, so you would say sell the houses immediately or try to hold on to them until we can break even? No, I don't know there's going to be a day in time you break even. I'm going to sell them now and cut my losses and consider it a stupid tax. Okay. And get your income up. If you're going to sign up for 40% of your take home for a house, you're going to be house poor. And this is on a 30-year, I imagine? Yeah.

A third year, yeah. Oh, man. You guys better start making some money. Now, I'm going to tell you something you don't want to hear, Megan, but if it were me, I would rent for a year or two, clean up this mess, get a bigger down payment, be able to increase our income. And I would say we are planting roots in New York. Great. But we do not have to buy the dream home or the forever home right now. I would wait. Gotcha. Okay.

I just don't want to buy a house, George, and then be like, every month, just are we going to make it? Well, a forever home turns into forever stress because it's hard to keep up when you're making 40% payments toward that mortgage and you only have this much left to live your life, especially in a high cost of living area like New York.

So I wish you guys the best. I think you're on the path if you sell these and cover the difference with the emergency fund, then stock it back up and start investing. But I think you'll be hard pressed to invest 15% while having anything extra to throw to the mortgage.

while living your life. Yeah. So at this point, now you have to out-earn your decision. Let's get that income up. That's the solution here. That's not always fun either. So anyway, thanks for the call, Megan. Hoping the best for you. Really appreciate it. All right. We got to do a quick break. We'll be right back. This is The Ramsey Show.

Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. So thrilled to have you with us, America. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me. The phone number is 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225. How are you feeling, George? Did you get caffeinated earlier? I'm alive. I'm still fading, Ken. You need another cold brew? I think that'll be too much caffeine for my little body. Yeah, I think you'll start shaking. All right, you ready to take another call? Let's do it. Who do we got? We got Josh in Los Angeles, California. Josh, how can we help?

Hey, how's it going? Thanks for taking my call. You bet. What's happening? Well, it's raining, so that's weird. But that's not why I'm calling. All right. I'm calling because I have two cars. I have an electric Fiat and I have a Jaguar, and I want to sell them both and get a Rivian.

And so my question is, do I use the money that I sold both of them for to buy the Rivian in cash, or do I put that money in my Robinhood account, which is earning 5.25% interest, and then I have some more money in there, and then use the interest being paid to lease it so I can, like, hold on to my principal? All right. Is this a legit call, or is this one of those, hey, I've been listening to this show, and I think I'm going to stump George and Ken? I got to know. No, it's a real car.

It's a real call. How old are you? Oh, real call, yeah. Oh, 43. And what do you make a year? Making 380. Wow. What do you do for a living?

I'm a TV producer. Oh, very nice. Any shows that George watches? I kid. I've done Fear Factor. Back in the day, I did Deadliest Catch. Oh, yeah. I used to watch Deadliest Catch. You wouldn't think about it looking at me, but I thought it was a fun show. I really did. And Fear Factor? That was a fun one. The pig intestines. I used to test all the stuff. Did you eat the pig intestines? Yes.

Yeah. Pig intestines actually weren't the worst thing that I've eaten, but yes. Wow. I did the pig intestines.

The worst was probably I had to eat a rat for our 100th episode in New York. Josh, your commitment to excellence is second to none. I applaud you, sir. Respect. All right. Let's get to the numbers. Well, I know, but people want to hear this, George. Ken got distracted by the pig intestines. Everything to you is a calculator. I just need to get to know these people. All right? Would you just relax? America wants to know this. This is a man who ate a rat once. All right?

Now, Josh. Wait, is my question absurd? Is that why you think I'm a fake caller? Yes, I'll tell you why it's absurd. Here's why it's absurd. Okay, please tell me. You make a lot of money, and I'm guessing you have some equity in these other two cars? They're paid for. They're paid for. So why in the world would you lease a car with earned interest from your Robin Hood account when you've got the money to just buy the car you want? This Rivian's expensive. It's about a $90,000 to $100,000 car, isn't it?

I was going to get a used one for $65,000 because I don't want to spend money on a new car. You're brilliant, Josh. I just don't know what the angle is as to why you think this is a good money play. You seem like a very intelligent guy, the rat withstanding. Why would you want to lease the car? What's the benefit? Well,

Well, my thought is that I have this money. So I have like $180,000 in my Robin Hoods earning like $1,000 a month. And then I can just use that $1,000 a month to pay for the car. And then in three years, I still have my $200,000 sitting there as opposed to spending $65,000 of that to buy the Rivian. And then in three years, who knows what that thing's going to be worth?

Yeah, right. George, you've heard this before. Well, the problem with leasing is that you won't own anything at the end of that. And so you're just going to trade. You're going to sell these cars and just get on a life of payments. And this amount of money, it's a small part of your world. Even if you paid cash for this thing, you still have six figures sitting in savings that can work for you. Right. Instead of bleeding out to a lender every month to make them rich. Right.

Because all you're doing with leasing is you're prepaying the depreciation on that car. That's the key point. What about getting a loan for the car and paying for it that way? That's just slightly less dumb, but still dumb to the nth degree. Why? It sounds like you're just wanting to leverage debt for your whole life, and you're too successful to play that game. That's a game for broke people.

Your greatest wealth building tool right now is your income, making $380,000. And if you cannot give any of that money to lenders, you're going to be so unbelievably wealthy and you're going to make very different choices when it comes to the things that you spend money on. Because when you get a loan, you go, well, I'll get the new one then. Who cares? The payment's low compared to my income. And that's how people end up giving away a large portion of their wealth over a long period of time.

So instead, take what you would have put in a lease and add that to your investment accounts and to your savings.

Yeah, but you're also assuming here that there's no risk with the Robinhood account. There's like nothing could go wrong. Well, let's just play this out. Savings rates are at an all time highs. You know that, Josh. And they're probably going to go down over the next few years as things cool off. And so there's an assumption that I'm always going to be making enough for making enough to make the spread worth it. And it's just too much brain calories burn, too much stress. I think the peace of mind of just owning it free and clear is going to make your life better.

Okay. Yeah, you're right. That's a good point. I didn't think about that interest rate going down, but 100%. Well, and just the emotion of it, just the peace of mind. I found that you could out-math me all day, Josh. You're a very smart dude, and on paper, you could win. That's exactly right. I'm not that smart. Yeah, well, it was for your job. So again, very impressive. You're very brave. You know what? $380,000, I might eat a rat. I don't think I would. Was it cooked? Yeah.

That makes a difference to you? It does. I think the psychological part of eating a rat doesn't matter whether it's raw or cooked. I just feel like Dr. John Deloney would eat a rat. He would, but he's nuts. That's a whole separate deal. That's a good point. But Josh, here's the thing. I want to wrap this up because George is right. On paper, because there are people watching and listening to this, a lot of people. They're like, oh, Josh got it. Listen, on paper, you can make this case

But most people can only make the case on paper and they can't live it out. And so they start leasing. Then they go, oh, I'm going to make debt work for me. And all these influencers on social media tell you, oh, you know, you guys, you can make debt work. And most people can't. And if you think that it's our opinion, just look at the sheer numbers.

And so that's why we're kind of preaching this. It's, it's, it's a philosophy that in the long run wins in the numbers big time. So I really appreciate your great sport.

And, George, this is a call that we get. I mean, I feel like this call happens once a month. Yeah. Somebody goes, well, I can leverage debt, and I can get this, and I can do this. I did my attempt at talking about these fleeces, and I made a video called Why Car Leasing is Stupid on my YouTube channel about eight months ago. So, Josh, go search for Why Car Leasing is Stupid on YouTube. You'll find my video there. Just give it a watch. It's less than 10 minutes. It's entertaining, and I go through the actual mathematics of why.

Why leasing a car is so dumb. I also did my biggest video ever, Ken. It's almost at a million views now, is the number one wealth killer. It was all about car loans. And people were actually getting it after the video going, oh my gosh. So the comments are- I regret the car payment. I regret the lease. Never again. Yeah.

And well done. Well done, sir. Two shameless plugs for your YouTube channel. I'm trying to give people a next step because we can't cover this all in a radio call. Oh, yeah. I got no problem with it. I'm just saying it was beautiful. Thank you. You're a giver. I mean, you just drop that in there. I just remembered. I was like, I think I covered this on a video recently and went in depth on the car lease. But I thought you made a really good point here is that you can win an argument on paper that doesn't necessarily play out in real life. And it rarely does.

And I want to give Josh a gift because I had fun talking with him. I'm going to send you a copy of my book, Breaking Free from Broke. I want you to read, I believe it's chapter five on car loans because I break all of this down. I cover all of the objections and I tell people what to do instead. And dude, you were so successful. You just truly don't need debt in your life ever. Yeah, good for you. You got the two cards. By the way, Josh, if Fear Factor makes a comeback, George and I would both like to audition.

I might regret that. You're like a Fear Factor junior where, like, Ken eats tofu. Well, I think the thing with Fear Factor is you can jump into the competition, and if it gets to be too much, you go home out. Yeah, but you're a competitive man. I feel like you're going to see it through. I've seen you on the pickleball court. I am a competitor, and you put me in a situation like that, I feel like I hold my nose. But I will tell you, as much as I'm talking trash right now, I don't think I could eat a rat. I think that's probably too much for me.

I'm glad you have some sort of standards and limits for your life. Bugs. I used to watch Survivor. I watch Alone on Netflix. All these things that I would never do, but I really am enthralled by them. I don't think I could chew on a rat. I think I'd have a hard time getting that down. But it's a chewy meat, don't you think? I think we're off the air at this point is what I think. We are not. Nobody wants to hear this. These are the questions America wants to wrestle with. Can't always be about money, George. All right, don't move. We've got a debt-free scream coming up next. This is The Ramsey Show.

Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me. The phone number is 888-825-5225. And George, I look across the studio, out into the lobby. Fabulous young couple looking at us. Ebullient is the word that comes to mind. It's a big word for George. What that means is they're glowing. Thank you for the translation. There you go.

It's very exciting, and I believe this is Steve and Maggie. Is that right? That's correct. Where are you guys from? We are from Minneapolis, Minnesota. All right, and we met you guys earlier today. We know you're here for a debt-free scream. That's so exciting. Let's get the numbers. How much debt did you pay off? We paid off $129,610. Wow, and how long did that take?

Just over 39 months. 39 months. And what was the range of income during that time? We started at around $130,000 and we got to $217,000. Whoa. What happened? Give me that story. Honestly, just promotions at work. Yeah. Just crushing it. What do you guys do for a living?

I'm a customer success manager at a software company. Okay. And I'm a sales manager at a logistics company. Nice. So you guys both contributed to the increase in income? Yes. All right. Very awesome. That's good stuff. Okay. So take us to the moment 39 months ago, and you guys say we've had it. We're going to take this debt-free journey. What was going on? How did you discover this process of the baby steps? Yeah.

I mean, I'll never forget it. Rewind back to 2019. We were dating at the time and we decided to move out to Denver from Minneapolis and start living together. And around that same time, we saw our friends here posted on Facebook the amount that they paid off in their student loan. So my initial reaction was, wonder what lottery they won, right? Reached out and they introduced us to the Ramsey plan and everything. So-

Fast forward six months, we had lived together for a while, COVID kicked off, and really nothing had changed financially. We both got new jobs. We're making the most money we ever had, but we're in the worst financial position we ever had been. So for me personally, it took a lot to just sit down and say, okay, what's not working, right? Figure out

if there's a cash flow issue or what's going on. And I figured out that every dollar of my income was going right back out to payments. Wow. I think between all of our debt, it was 11 separate payments every single month. What kind of debt was it? We had student loans and credit cards and cars. Okay. So your garden variety debt? Yep. Yeah. Pretty normal. Completely normal, right? Sure, sure, sure. Wow. Yeah. Well, you guys are an impressive young couple. How long have you been married now?

Coming up on two years. So in the middle of all this, you're getting married and cash flowing the wedding, I hope? We cash flowed the wedding. Wow. Did you make different decisions because of that? Because of this journey? Yeah, definitely. You know, I kind of started out by doing this myself, right? And I sold off my brand new car. That was really hard. That's what got cash flow back in. What was the car?

Let us know. A Chevy Malibu, but it was sweet. It was all black and it was my first new car purchase. I didn't know there were any more sweet Malibus. I'm going to have to look that up. I'll take your word for it. They're out there. No judgment. That was extremely hard for me because I loved my car, but that was the kickstart of it. And then, you know, 2020 at the end of 2020, we got engaged and started talking about money together. So, all right. So real quick. So, so you're living together and you come home after talking to friends over here and

And you go after it. Maggie, are you just kind of like, what is going on? I was not into it. I had a sense. At all. Yeah. What was your reasoning? I thought that I was doing everything the right way already. So were you stressed about money at this point? Or were you just like, it's fine. We can manage the payments. I think she was pretty relaxed about it. I felt pretty relaxed. Okay. I'm over here sweating. Yeah. Yeah. Was it because you were handling more of the financial world and you felt the brunt of that or what?

I just felt like I spent, but I wasn't overspending and everybody has to earn loans. So you just thought, well, this is normal. You're just kind of a low-grade stress making your payments and you just live your life. Exactly. So at what point do you, Maggie, go, I'm on board? Was it pre-engagement? Was it post-engagement? What's the story? It was probably around the time of engagement, realizing that we have to be on the same page

whatever plan that is. And he was really ready to go. So you were gazelle? You were gazelle intense. I had it all planned out, showed her when we'd be done. And we knew we had to cash flow that wedding. So that was the kickstart of how do we budget enough so we can save for the wedding while also paying off debt. Nice. And, you know, we kept things separate up until our marriage, but really worked together.

I'm curious, once you guys get married and you combine finances, did you get a pep in the step as far as knocking out debt with dual income and really being focused? Yeah, major. We did actually both put our...

bank accounts onto every dollar. So for about a year leading up to getting married, we were budgeting together even though our bank accounts were separate, which was huge in being transparent. It felt like premarital counseling in itself. And from there, once we got married, I think we combined our bank accounts like two days later and we just went crazy. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah.

And did it change your marriage? Is it healthier because you guys had this experience together and you got on the same page, speaking the same language? Absolutely. We still have our budget meetings at least monthly. We're talking about it every day, every week. But we sit down, create our budgets every month. And at the beginning, they were a lot more tearful. But now it's easy. Now it's less stress. No payments. There's no debt columns to deal with. It's pretty streamlined. Wow. So we got a lot of people listening and watching.

What would you both say? Give us your quick anecdote on what the key is to getting debt free from your own perspectives. Yeah, we each picked one. For me personally, I think the key to getting out of debt is starting.

As easy as that sounds, I think it's the hardest thing for people to do. For me, it was facing the numbers, laying everything out, looking at that pile of debt we had and facing it head on. It was very emotional. I didn't even know how much debt we had, right? So that's step one is really laying it out for yourself and going along with that as a budget. I mean, you have to have some intentionality there in order to make progress.

What about you? Yeah, I would say having a plan and working on it together. No way could we have done this without every dollar and putting every single line item in there, dragging our transactions, though sometimes painful. And doing this together was the biggest piece, being on the same page. I love it. Let's stay in that lane here. What about your support group? I mean, we obviously know we've got a fabulous young couple over there who modeled the way for you, your friends. But what was the support like?

You know, I think we really were our biggest cheerleaders each other. Ah, good. So many people have opinions. You know, finances are personal. There's a lot of different schools of thoughts out there. So we knew what we wanted in the end and...

figured we're going to stick on that path. Yeah. And it worked out for you. Our friends and family were great though. They were always checking in with us, always, you know, asking about our journey and it's awesome. Yeah. That's huge. Well, since every dollar was a big part of your life, we also have a gift for you. We have two every dollar premium. So one you can use for yourselves and you won't have to pay for the upgrade if you already have it. And another one you can give away and tell someone else, Hey, I believe in your journey. Here you go. This is the tool that helped us do it.

That's awesome. Thank you. Fantastic. I absolutely love it. I got to ask, now you stand here. You guys have been married how long? Almost two years. Almost two years in May. Yeah. So, I mean, I still think that's a newlywed. It is. It is. It's great. And you guys have the rest of your life in front of you. Have you allowed your brain to start to compute and begin to dream now that you've reached this milestone? And if you have, what do you feel comfortable sharing about the future that you can now do? Yeah. I mean, we...

We really haven't slowed down. As soon as we finished paying off of our debt, we built up our emergency fund and now we're on 3B building up our down payment. Down payment, come on. So it's been really fun working together on that and knowing how quickly we can come up with cash. I love it.

Because we don't have to worry about those other payments. And you guys are going to be millionaires before you know it. Well, that's the thing. We used the Ramsey Plus to look at the network calculator, and we were just like... Freaking out. Let's do it. That's crazy. You guys ready to celebrate? Let's do it. All right, folks. We got Steve and Maggie from Minneapolis. They paid off $129,000 in 39 months, making...

$130,000 to $217,000. Take it away. Let's hear your debt-free scream. Three, two, one. We're debt-free! Steve and Maggie. How about that? A young couple. They have their entire life in front of them. I love that part. She's like, we looked ahead on the investment calculator. That's where it gets exciting. Building for the future instead of paying for the past. This is The Ramsey Show.

Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell is with me. The phone number is 888-825-5225. Our scripture of the day comes from 1 Timothy 2, verses 1 through 2. I urge then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving be made for all people, for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.

And our quote from our third U.S. president on this President's Day. Who is that, George? Who's the third president? That's my boy, TJ. All right. Very good. In matters of style, swim with the current. In matters of principle, stand like a rock. That's a good one, George. Wow. That's a good one. I bet Tommy had some style. I think he did. I think he would have wore the sweater. Now, that's quite the claim.

Look, this is not going to be in five years from now, George. So at that point, I have to probably give it to Goodwill. I think the wigs they wore, that didn't hold up either as far as style goes. I don't think so. All the powder. So much powder. And the heat. Think of Philadelphia, mid-O-summer, with those little shoes they had to wear. The stockings, the wood shoes. I'm out. It's a tough time. I'll take some Dr. Scholl's.

over that. Oh, that's funny. That's a tough time to be alive, folks. Oh, I'm so grateful for good shoes. Daniel's up in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Daniel, how can we help? Hey, fellas. Thank you so much for taking my call. I appreciate y'all. You bet. What's up? Well, first off, I just want to let you know I'm at a Chick-fil-A playroom with my kiddo. It's just us two, but you might

You're my kiddo in the back. We love that. I had three kids. Good for you, Dad. No problem. We don't care if the kid screams. We can handle it. Okay, good. Okay, good. So my question is, for about the past year, I've been working three jobs trying to support my family. My wife takes care of the kiddo the majority of the time. It's President's Day, so I get the day off to hang out with her.

Um, our daughter and, um, uh, for about the first six months of me working as many jobs that have been, again, it was like paycheck to paycheck. That was the reason I started working the extra two jobs and that continued. Um, a little late into the last year, we printed off a budget thing cause we just knew that something wasn't right. We didn't have to keep living like this. Um,

And so we were able to pay off quite a bit of our debt. I'd say about 18,000. We have about 5,000 more. And my question is, I'm just trying to figure out when is the time I'm able to slow down a little bit and start working two instead of the three jobs. Because I feel like unless there's a holiday or a quick break, I'm not able to spend the time with them like I would like to.

What are you making from your full-time job? 48. So I take home about 14. What do you mean take home 14?

14 every two weeks, I'm sorry. Oh, got it. 1,400. Got it. All right. So about 2,800 a month is what you're taking home. What are the other two jobs bringing in every month take home? I'm a bartender on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and it's hard to determine how much I'm getting because it does change, but I average it on the low end of about $400.

Every week, and every two weeks on that, I get a $300 check. Okay, so about $600 per month net? Yeah. All right, and what's the third job? I'm a janitor, and I make $166 a week. And is that the least amount of your time spent, I'm guessing? Yes, it's about seven hours a week. Okay, but it's about the same as your bartending gig. You're still making about $600 net.

Right. I'm just wondering, if you cut one based on what would give you the most time back, which one would you cut? The most time back, I would keep the janitor position. Financially, I would make quite a bit more bartending. Like I said, about $400 a week is for sure on the low end, unless most people sell. But the hours are crazy. Yeah, I work about 21 hours. How does this thing is on? Sorry. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

So the janitor position is Monday through Friday. So I don't really see them at all throughout the week. I leave one job, go to the gym so I can get a second of me time. And then I go work that position. And then by then my kid goes to sleep. The Thursday, Friday, Saturday does eat up my weekend, but I do get sleep.

um the weekdays if i were to leave one of them well this is gonna it's gonna slow down your debt payoff but i'm okay with slowing it down by a few months it sounds is your wife like hey listen you don't exist and this is putting a strain on me yeah i can see it um they're very supportive um but

I can see it. How long have you been on this debt-free journey? How long have you been intense about it, paying this down? So I've been intense about working for about a year now. As far as trying to pay off debt for about four or five months, and as far as listening to you all, I've been listening for about six weeks now. I heard you on the...

How to Money Podcast Origins. Oh, yeah. Those guys are awesome. I got obsessed after that, yeah. Thank you. How about that? Great guys out of Atlanta. So here's the thing. If this is going to be another three months, I think we can stick it out. If this is going to be a year and it's going to extend it by a few months if we slow down, I'm okay with that. But the deal is have a goal and stick to it and just be in communication with your spouse, constant communication. Hey, how are we doing this week? Do I need to take a shift off? Do you need a break? All that kind of stuff.

But it sounds like you'll be done with this regardless within the next six months. It's only 5K left. Right. I have about six grand left. So, because I've heard you all say that Gazelle intents until you get to baby step four. And so I was just thinking... That's when you go from intense to intentional. Right, to get to intentional. The bigger thing is your full-time income needs to come up if you're going to be the only income in the household.

Right. And so long term, I want you to have the margin to still invest 15% and put money away for those kiddos college and pay off the house early. All of those still need to be goals you have. What's the professional future look like? What would you like to be doing, Daniel? Let's assume we're just doing one job. We're debt free. We're in babysat 456. We're rocking and rolling. What do you want to be doing?

So right now, I'm a resource navigator for a nonprofit that helps justice-involved people navigate the system to get benefits and things like this. But I was told that I should be getting a promotion soon for an employment specialist.

which would raise the income about $7,000. Okay, but what's your long term? Is that the world you want to be in, that nonprofit world and helping folks and get placed and all that? Is that your ministry kind of focus? Yeah, it's just from lived experience. When I was 24, I actually went to prison. So it does speak a lot to me for me to be able to work in that field. It doesn't seem like...

Yeah, it didn't seem like when I got out that I would be able to do anything other than work in kitchens, which was a long time of where I was at. But now you know that's not true. That's not true. So I had such imposter syndrome for so long. Here's the deal. I want to give you my Get Clear Career Assessment. My book, From Paycheck to Purpose, is my gift because I want you to dig a little deeper on that. I think you've proved to a lot of people, and I think you'll continue to prove, and you'll have to, you know, you have a different standard because of your past. But.

but, which is unfortunate, I don't think that's deserved, but I want you to think about what it looks like to grow your income over the next three to five years. Really grow it and still do work that you love. Now, here's the deal. The assessment in the book will help you with that, but

George, I want to jump in real quick. We only got a minute here. We got 30 seconds with you, Daniel. I think there are levels of gazelle intensity. And I think when you got a wife who's going, I don't think I can stretch this much longer on this kind of schedule and not see you. And it's just really hurting. I think gazelle is different for George than it is for me.

Is that fair, George? That's fair. And I think we need to probably dial back. Well, in stages of life. Some people, when they're single, I'm like, go work 90 hours. When you've got kids and a wife, it's a different situation. So I would probably, I'm going to say don't try to hang on for three more months. Not the way it sounds. I'm not in any way disagreeing with you. I'd cut one of the jobs and see where things are at and do the math of how is it going to slow it down. Okay, it's going to slow it down by two months. I like that. So I think that's the move, Daniel. Choose your family in this situation. You're not going to regret that.

You can always go back and get the third job or whatever. But I'd pull back and let's breathe a little bit. You're crushing it. I don't have any doubts you guys are going to win big. So hang on the line. We'll get you those gifts. Appreciate you, Daniel. You're a good man. Now enjoy the play area of Chick-fil-A. I'm getting hungry. Yeah. He's a nugget or two. Hey, good show. Beats a rat. Yeah, beats a rat. I'll tell you that. George Campbell, great show. Thanks to the guys. Austin for filling in for James Childs. Thank you. And thank you, America. This is The Ramsey Show.

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