Freeing Up Your Income From Debt Will Build You Wealth
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Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work, and make a difference.

that they love and create actual amazing relationships. Jade Warshaw, best-selling author, Ramsey personality is my co-host today. Open phones as we talk about you right in front of you. The phone number is 888-825-5225. The call is free and some say the advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. Tyler is with us in Topeka, Kansas. Hey, Tyler, welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave. Hi, Jade. Thanks for taking my call. Sure. What's up?

My wife and I, along with our two boys, are ready to purchase a home financially. Emotionally, we're both at different places and having a hard time coming to an agreement on what to spend and even whether now is the right time. Okay. What's the problem? What do you want to do versus what she wants to do? We both want to move into a home, but my wife is...

uh really enjoys the security of having a large amount of money in the bank okay so what's it going to cost you what are you like what are you looking to spend how much do you have saved tell me more we've got uh up to 80,000 for a down payment um buying probably no less no more than a three hundred thousand dollar home okay and is that eighty thousand dollars just the down payment or do you have more money that you have set aside for your three to six months

Yes. What's yes mean? You have an emergency fund in addition to the 80K? That's correct. Okay, cool. And what's your household income? $140,000 to $160,000 depending on commissions and bonuses. Okay. There's no reason to not buy. I don't understand.

No hesitation whatsoever. This is the time to do it. Yesterday. Y'all go find your house. Every guideline you gave me fits and makes good common sense. It fits everything we're talking about. The only trade-off is she wants to keep $80,000 in the bank and watch it go down in value while the house goes up in value. So you're trading a $300,000 house for what is now a $250,000 house because in 20 minutes that $250,000 is going to be $300,000. Mm-hmm.

While you sit around and watch your cash. Okay. Yeah, this is not the time to wait. You understand what I'm saying? The 80 is still going to be 80 a year from now. The 300 is going to be 350 a year from now. Okay, I got you. And then it's going to be 400.

And your 80 is still going to be 80. You probably need to sit down and explain that with the right attitude. Not my tone of voice, but Jade or Rachel's tone of voice. I don't know about mine. Maybe Rachel's. Yeah. Rachel's always the friendly one. She's the nice personality. But the... It takes great joy in that. But anyway, the... Yeah. I...

I think I would start with, you know, and some of that, I understand how you feel, but 10 years from today, waiting is not going to be our best plan. Would you agree? You know, and say something along those lines and say, you know, 10 years from today, the house that we can buy for 300, we won't be able to buy anymore. And the 80 will not have gone up. And so the longer we wait, the less house we're going to be able to buy. How old are you guys?

28. Listen, I remember when me and my husband bought our first house, everything was in line and I still felt just a little bit trigger shy. It's a big purchase. It's the biggest purchase you're ever going to make. And so there is, you know, that apprehension there, but let her listen to this call and the experts are telling you that you're ready. So you're in good shape. Listen, if you were a broke guy trying to buy a house and your wife was trying to talk you out of it, I'd call you stupid and tell you not to do it right here on the air. You know that you've heard me do it.

Yeah. I mean, cause I love you and I want you to win. Right. And so I'm,

You know, I would love to do it. That's it. I'm kidding, but not much. But the yeah. So yeah, seriously, you guys are in really good shape. You've done a good job. Waiting is going to cost you. And the only reason you're waiting now is fear. And in this case, it's false evidence appearing real. It's just you're doing something big you've never done before. And like Jade said, that is scary. It's valid to be scared, but it's not valid to let the fear rule you. Yeah.

Okay. Fair enough. Well, I appreciate everything you guys have done. You've really helped us out a lot. Hey, Tyler, how old are you two? 28. 28.

All right, cool. You fit everything, man. Everything you're lining up. I mean, you didn't call me up and you're 19 years old and you have no money and your broke friend at the happy hour drinking three beers with you told you to buy a house. You're not that guy. I mean, you actually have a clue. Well, then there's like the perception, right? Your perception really denotes what your behavior is going to be. And I think right now so many perceive that it's impossible to buy a house in this market. You'll never be able to do

And they are actually doing it. Yeah, everybody's telling them that all their friends are going, no one, it's all gone.

All the opportunity's gone. Everyone under 30 is going to die homeless. You know, this is the crap that's on the internet. And it's just crap because we meet 26-year-olds with a paid-for house doing their debt-free screen. That's true. So, I mean, we meet people all the time that are doing it and making it work. But they're just not overbuying. That's right. And they're not buying crap they can't afford. That's right. Paul's in Chattanooga. Hey, Paul, welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Thank you, Dave. I have a great situation to be in. First off, I thank you for taking my call and I appreciate all the information and education that y'all give to everybody on finances. But my question is,

We're looking to open a Roth account. I have that available through my employer retirement of a 401k with a Roth option. My question is, after we've looked at all of our finances, after we've become debt-free house and all, trying to allocate money, I think we've got enough to fully fund one Roth

But to accomplish all of our other goals, I don't think we can fully fund two. So the question is, over time, would it grow more if we fully funded one Roth account with $7,000 a year? Not a dime. Or two Roth accounts? $7,000 is $7,000. If it's in seven accounts or one account, it's still $7,000.

And if it's growing, if all seven accounts are growing at the same rate, the seven $1,000 accounts will grow to the exact same total as the single $7,000 account mathematically.

So you would recommend me and my wife both open one? Doesn't matter. Instead of, doesn't matter? Doesn't matter. If you both want one and partially fund it, that's fine. I do want to ask you though, because you started out by saying you had the Roth 401k. Are you saying that you're fully funding that, which is around $22,500, and then you're moving over to a Roth IRA? I just want to make sure that you're clear on what you've got and what you're funding.

No, we're trying to establish the 15% total. Okay. I thought you said the house was paid for.

Yes, the house is paid. The 15% total doesn't matter anymore. You max out everything if you can. Keep the government's hands off of it. If you can hit your other goals with the house paid for, I'd max out the work Roth, max out two individual Roths, keep the government's hands off the money. When you're in baby step seven, the 15% doesn't apply because you're debt-free. Now we're stacking cash. But if you've got some other goals and you want to keep retirement down at 15% temporarily, that's okay too. This is the Ramsey Show.

I've been doing this show for over 30 years and some of the saddest calls I have taken are from situations that are completely preventable. Yeah, and what's so hard is I feel like one of those, especially the ones that I'm like, oh, it's terrible, are people that call in and their spouse has passed away suddenly and they don't have life insurance. When you have to think through how am I going to pay my bills? How am I going to pay my bills?

I'm going to eat next week. Yeah, in the middle of all that grief. Like it's just, it is, it's terrible. So life insurance is the one thing, especially as a mom with three little kids that I'm like so big on for people to get because it's inexpensive. Zander is the place that Winston and I actually get all of our life insurance. And it doesn't cost much because Zander shops among a gazillion different companies. It doesn't cost much. You just have to admit that someday you're not going to be here.

You've got to say it out loud, and you've got to say, I'm going to say I love you to my family by taking care of them and taking the time to put this stuff in place. The cost of a stinking pizza. To get a free quote, call 800-356-4282. That's 800-356-4282, or go to zander.com.

So some of y'all may not know Jade and Sam's story. They were in the cruise line business for years and somewhat still are booking talent onto the cruise ships, right? Yeah. With Sam's business. And they were actually talent themselves at one point on some of the cruise ships. So you've got a...

I have mixed emotions about going on a Ramsey cruise. You're like the most experienced cruiser. I mean, I've been on a bunch of cruises, but nowhere near as many as you have. I mean, I'm excited. It's the best vacation you can take.

Wow. Okay. Well, and you'll be working, but not working. I'll be working. You'll be working the same way. That's right. I'll be on the stage, but in a different capacity. Let's put it like that. And it's a completely different situation. That's right. Than being the entertainment, because we're entertaining, but we're not the entertainment. So the Ramsey Cruise is coming up in March.

It is not yet sold out, but it's approaching a sellout. If you want to come, it's the Live Like No One Else cruise. You need to be on Baby Step 4 or beyond. We'll check your little Baby Steps card and make sure you are because we don't want you going on vacation with us and not getting out of debt. That'd be a wee bit hypocritical when we tell you not to go on vacation while you're doing this. So anyway, up to Baby Step 4, 4 and beyond, Live Like No One Else cruise, Turks and Caicos, St. Thomas, Puerto Rico, the Bahamas, Mexico,

Dave and Sharon Ramsey, all the Ramsey personalities, plus Stephen Curtis Chapman, plus Manit Chauhan from the Food Channel, plus Dina Carter, fabulous country music star. Remember Strawberry Wine? Yeah, old man.

What a great song. Yeah, anyway, and just a lot of other folks on the cruise with us that are unbelievable talent. And you're going to have an absolute blast. We're going to be with you the entire week. It's a seven-day, very high-end cruise. It's not at one of the cheapies. This is not Walmart on the seas. This is Holland America.

the good stuff. I vouch for that. And yeah, I've been on Holland America a couple of times and this is one of their newer ships. It's excellent. I've also been on the cheap stuff and this is not that. Yeah. There's a difference. I'm just saying there's, you do get what you pay for on the high seas. So there you go. Well, speaking for about paying Dave, a lot of people are like, do I, do I have to have the, you know, however much it is upfront. But the good news is you can book it with just the deposit. $600 deposit. Yeah. March 22nd through the 29th, 2025.

And we had one sold out. It was supposed to sail in March of 2020 when the only thing on the high seas was a virus. And so we weren't able to go. They shut the whole thing down. I mean, they shut the ocean down. They just pulled the plug on. It was actually dry sand. Go ahead and say it, Dave. I know you want to say Fauci pandemic. The Fauci pandemic caused all of it. But anyway, so now five years later, we'll be on the high seas for real.

and it's going to be amazing. RamseySolutions.com slash cruise. We'd love to have you join us. There's just a few cabins left, so you need to get your reservations done now, people. Lindsay's in Wichita, Kansas. Hi, Lindsay. How are you? Hi, I'm good. How are you guys? Better than we deserve. What's up? All right. So my question is, at what point do you prioritize paying off the highest interest versus the lowest balance snowball method?

You mean snowball versus avalanche? Mm-hmm. Never. You always do the debt snowball. The avalanche is mathematically incorrect. You want me to tell you why? Okay. Because it sounds like it's mathematically correct, correct? You understand? Paying off the highest interest rate first sounds like it's mathematically correct. Should get you out of debt faster, right? Hello? Hello? Sorry, I'm still there. Okay. Is that right? Is that why you're considering it? It is.

Kind of, yeah. I'm looking at these interest rates and the highest interest rate is about seven times our lowest interest rate. Yeah. And how much debt do you have? We're right about $23,000. And your household income is what? Right under $100,000. So the interest rate does not matter. You're going to be out of debt in one year. So the actual dollars paid in interest will be irrelevant. Right.

Okay. So, I mean, 10% on $23,000 is $2,000 in a year.

That's the most swing you could have in this whole thing, and you're not even going to have that much swing. Your whole swing in between, if you ran out the numbers on two probabilities, you would find that the actual math is probably around $1,200. We're having this conversation over. You don't have a $1,200 problem. You have a $23,000 problem and a lifestyle problem and a process problem, and you're spending money you don't have to impress people you don't like, and you've decided to stop because you're smart. Way to go.

Thank you. That's your problem. The problem is your mirror. The person in your mirror is your problem. It's not an interest rate problem. That's thing number one. Okay, let me walk you through this for a second because this is something I just learned.

in the last two years got my head around. I knew the debt snowball method was working better than the avalanche method because we help literally millions of people get out of debt using it and the avalanche method does not have the same success level. Avalanche method, for those of you who don't know, is you list your debt's highest interest rate to smallest interest rate, thereby paying off the highest interest rate debt first regardless of its size.

And the debt snowball method is you pay off the smallest debt to largest debt. So you have some immediate success because you knock out the little one really fast. You get a little more excited. You knock out the next one a little faster, a little faster, a little faster, a little faster. And every time you knock off another one, your hope increases. Here's what we have actually discovered, Lindsay. The math is incomplete when you only consider what we've talked about so far.

If you're actually doing a real business case on this, you would also enter into the math equation the probability of actually completing the plan, finishing and becoming debt-free. If you put probability to it, the number of people that complete the debt snowball plan is vastly higher because they get excited and hopeful because they're knocking out the little ones. Mm-hmm.

is vastly higher than the probability of people who create, who complete the supposedly intellectual version, highest interest rate to lower interest rate. But the probability is lower of completion. So when you enter in the math of probability of completion, if you're doing like a probability and statistics equation, you would never use the avalanche plan because almost no one actually finishes it because they lose hope. They get stuck.

stuck in a large debt the high interest rate and they're just peddling and peddling and getting nowhere and they lose hope and 30 days in they quit instead of get fired up and wired up and plowing on through and that's the difference so you always use this and by the way um northwestern university actually did a research study on it and found that the debt snowball outperforms

on average, because of probability of completion, the avalanche method. And they actually then ended up printing an article in Time Magazine that said Dave Ramsey's right after all. Look at that. Who knew? Well, it makes sense. You're shortening that feedback loop. So you're getting a good result. And every time you get that good result, you get that hit of dopamine that's like, feel good. Yes, I did something. So yeah, you want to keep going. You need some wins. Yeah, you do. Everybody needs some wins. If you're a brand new salesman,

The first thing you need to do is go make a quick sale. Anything. Yeah. Just even if it's a little one. You need the success, the confidence builder, the hope deferred makes the heart sick. Hopelessness makes the heart sick. The opposite of that is when desire comes, it is the tree of life. So when you get that hope because you pay off that little one, you go, whoa, this is weird. I never paid off a debt before in my life. There's another one. Knocked out another one. Look at that. And there's another one. I got another one. Yeah.

And you start getting more and more and more pumped because you're getting through it. And your likelihood, your probability of completion enters into it. And when you actually convert that to a math formula, the debt snowball is far superior because in the real world, it's far superior. And so it shows up in the math. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. The worst thing in the world is when you've been doing a workout plan that doesn't work and you stand on the scale and it never moves. Oh, God. It's like...

I give up. Cut the tape. I'm done. I'm done. But if you see it, even just a couple of ounces, you're like, okay, it's working. You keep doing the planning. Before you know it, you lost five pounds. Well, yeah, and it's back away from the donuts for me. I got no donuts, Dave. Son, it's a donut problem, son. The guy in the mirror, right? Every time. It's so sad that most of our problems originate with a person in our mirror.

Yeah. That's the bad news. The good news is most of your solutions originate with the person in the mirror, not someone in the White House. Thank you, Jesus. Or if broccoli could just be round and donut flavored, that could also. Put a little hole in it. A little hole in the middle. But it's still broccoli. That would solve everything. It would have to be donut. Oh, this is just. These shouldn't even be in the same sentence, Jake. I know. This is The Ramsey Show.

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Jade Walsh, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author, is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us, America. This is The Ramsey Show. The phone number is 888-825-5225. Eric's in Buffalo, New York. Hi, Eric. How are you?

Better than I deserve, Dave. Long-time listener, great fan of you and Jade. Got you on Spotify and Facebook and all that. Appreciate you for having me. Thank you. So I was in a train accident about a year and three months ago, got caught between a couple trains and finally just settled that just a little over a couple weeks ago after the lawyers took everything, ended with about like 275.

And my birthday is coming up on 7-11 and just decided to pay off my house and my car. And that leaves me with just around $200,000. I tied $150,000 up in a CD at $4.25 because I really wasn't sure what to do. And I don't really know if I trust the market that much right now.

So I have about 50,000 left over and I'm just looking for like how to be a good steward of the rest. And then once like December 24th comes up and that TD's matured, what to put it in to gain the most potential on the money. How are you? You okay?

Yeah, I am actually finished with all my medical and I am back to almost everyday normal living, playing volleyball again and pickleball and all that. So yeah, my left hip

I got fractured. I needed surgery. And, uh, yeah, so I, I recovered, um, from December 12th, uh, hip surgery. Uh, what is that about a little more than six months now, but everything's great. Um, talk to a therapist for a good matter of about nine months. And, uh, I feel like I'm back in some of the best shape of my life. Uh,

Yeah. That's great. It's not every day you hear somebody say, I got caught between a couple of trains. Yeah, usually people don't walk away from that. So that's pretty cool, man. That's neat. Yeah, no, I'm truly blessed. Okay, cool. Well, it sounds like you've done the stuff we would teach you to do with the money. You've been very careful, thoughtful. You've gotten yourself out of debt. You've got a plan.

So what is it that you actually need us to answer? Because it sounds like you've done most of the stuff. So I guess I just, you know, I just threw it in a CD just recently.

because I'm not really sure what to do with it. Um, I mean, and when I was in my twenties, I had a great paying job and went and, you know, borrowed money to go on trips. I'm actually going to El Salvador, um, tomorrow, uh, for like a birthday trip. Cause I was actually supposed to go to El Salvador, uh,

right before my train accident or right after my train accident, I called them on the hospital bed and they allowed me to cancel the non-refundable ticket and they refunded me. So it's kind of like full circle. I went on a mission trip a few years ago and so I'm going to revisit some friends. So I guess the whole point of the question is like, where can I earn the most potential on the money? Look,

If I don't really trust the stock market right now, it's at all-time highs. Obviously, you're probably following that. Well, listen, I think that if you don't know what to do with your money and if you're unsure about how to invest it, yeah, sticking it in a high-yield savings probably would have...

been my move, but I don't, I wouldn't want it to stay there. It's a lot of money, $150,000. I'd love if you would put in the time and kind of learn a little bit more about this with a smart investor pro and kind of get that confidence before you start investing it. Cause I do think the best place for this money is invested.

Let's say the 50,000 that you have set aside as your three to six months of expenses. And then once you learn and feel comfortable enough to invest this, you do that with the 150,000. That's what I would do. Now, what happens in the future? Do you start working again?

So, I'm a self-employed. I just drive for Lyft because I don't see any value in going and finding a W-2 job that pays me $17, $19 an hour and then takes away taxes, where I make $25, $30 an hour driving Lyft, and then I just write off all my miles from my car. But you still pay taxes. Yeah.

Uh, no, no, actually, Jade, I've, I've drove, I've driven ride share for the past seven years and I've never paid a dime in taxes. It means you're not making any money, huh? All right. Because of all the write-offs. Yeah. Yeah. The write-offs aren't fake. They're real. Your car's going down in value more than you're making. So that's why you're not, that's why you're not making taxes anyway. So the investing question works like this. How old are you?

I'll be 35 on 7-Eleven. Okay. And have a great trip, by the way. Hope it works out for you. You've been looking forward to it a long time. The way I look at investing is I've been doing this on the air now for over 30 years. And every single year for 30 years, people have told me that they're not going to buy a house because houses aren't going to keep going up in value. They're going to tank and there's going to be a bubble. Right.

Every single year, people have told me they're not going to invest in mutual funds because look how high they are. They can't maintain that. And every year, both have gone up. Every decade, both have gone up. Every five-year period, both house prices and the stock market has gone up. So I completely am 100% trusting that both of those are going to keep going up.

Long term. Now, I don't know about tomorrow or this week or by November 3rd. I couldn't get I couldn't tell you anything about that. But but over the next decade, I'm 63. I'm 100 percent sure I'm going to make money.

In the stock market going up by being in mutual funds, and I'm going to make money by owning real estate, and real estate goes up in the next decade. I'm 100% sure of that. And there's very few things I'm 100% sure of. But in the short, I've never seen a time in American history, modern American history, that you can look back, that both of those things in a decade did not go up. Now, can you trust the stock market between now and Christmas? Oh, crap, no.

I mean, there's crazy people running to be in the White House. I mean, come on. Right. But when you look at the graphs, I mean, you can go back and look at the graphs as far back as you want. And you're going to watch them go up. So, yeah, you need. I'm with Jade. If I were in your shoes, I think, Eric, you need to learn some more about it because you're afraid of it because you're watching the news. And that's where you're getting your information.

Bad place to get information, by the way, about reality. And so, you know, if you want to learn about everything that's wrong with the world, you can find that out on Fox and CNN. They'll tell you. But if you want to actually learn what the market has done, you need to sit down with somebody and look at the actual numbers and say, all right, in 1982, here's what it was when I was 22. And I'm really glad I bought my first mutual fund in 1983. Can you imagine?

Can you even imagine how sweet that little mutual fund is today? Oh, my goodness. I know. Listen, I sit next to you, so. It's a sweet baby. I like it. So if you're thinking long term and you study the actual data, it'll help your fear dissipate.

Because this is a case of not knowing and the fear comes from not knowing. Some things, when you learn more about them, you should become more fearful. That's right. Oh, yeah. Healthy fear. And more careful and more wise in the handling of the thing, whatever it is, right?

And so fear, uh, fear is a good thing in that sense. But fear that, that creates paralysis based on lack of knowledge is never a good thing. So learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn. And the more, you know, the less you're going to, the less you're going to want to do it or the more you're going to want to do it. Facts are your friends. Exactly. It's Dr. John Deloney. Yeah. Yeah. He, he's, he's right about that though. When we're, um,

There's so many things I can think of, like the guy calling a little bit earlier about buying his first house. His wife's afraid. Yeah. Facts are your friends. Yeah, it's usually a lack of clear knowledge on it. It's kind of a circulation of what you've heard people say, what you think might be going on, what happened to your friend a couple of years ago. It's like all those things kind of correlate together to inform your story.

Yeah, and you know, we're at a disadvantage in our culture today because we have so much bad information at our fingertips.

And bad influences at our fingertips. It used to be the news media was actually, you know, in the 60s or 70s, they were actually credible. And you could trust somewhat what they were saying. And you weren't bombarded every minute with this magic wand in your hand by negativity. Yeah. And so it was somebody that's 14 years old that lives in their mother's basement that has an opinion on TikTok. Oh, my gosh. And they're called an influencer. God help us. This is The Ramsey Show.

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Jade Walshaw, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host. Guys, we could use your help. A bunch of you have been helping us, and we appreciate it.

How can you help us? Doesn't cost you a thing. All you need to do is click the subscribe button, the follow button, where you're listening or watching the show, whether it's YouTube or Spotify or Apple or whatever. Subscribe, follow, however that works in your format. Also, some of those formats have a, some of those platforms have a share button, sharing the show with friends. That's a big deal. Jade was just telling me about a movie at the break that I need to go see. See, that's how you tell people. She said, and I'm not going to tell you about the ending.

So there we go. That means I've got to go see it to get, you know. That's right. There it is. Now, the difference is your friends will tell you about the ending on this show. But yeah, spread the word. Tell people about this. Click a link and send a link around and tell them something fun and funny or something you learned that changed your way of looking at money. Whatever. However we can help you. That's what we want to do and help us spread the word with that and those five-star reviews. They help us with the algorithm as well, folks. Thank you very much. And we know you're doing that because our numbers are wild.

way up thank you wow justin is in omaha nebraska hi justin how are you good are you better than i deserve what's up uh my wife and i have about 145 000 in student debt and she kind of feels like it's her fault so i'm trying to just help her uh i guess not really cope but just figure out how to help her better understand and how to attack it from there well was most of it hers when you got married

all of it so I was pretty well then it would be her fault yeah that would be accurate but that we don't have to be shamed about her guilty about it it's just like yeah you know um apparently you thought she was worth it so there we go listen when I got married my husband had 200,000 of student loan debt so and it just kind of ballooned even more because of interest so was he worth it yeah he was he was

Sam's definitely worth it. And more Sam. But I mean, the point of me saying that is that feeling is very real. Like it is, it feels like, I mean, it feels like a weight. It feels like the weight of the world is on you and you feel bad about it. The best thing that you can do, and this is just from personal experience, the best thing that you can do is really lock arms with her and never refer to it in her presence as her dead again.

Our debt. It's ours. I'm with you. And I've been doing my best to not do that, too. Yeah. And I mean, honestly, over time, that helps so much. And then, you know, coming up with a plan to attack it, is this the only debt or do you guys have more? We have about $25,000 on her car. Okay. Mine is paid for. Okay. Did you guys just get married? Is this... We've been married a little over two years. What's your household income? About $85,000 after tax. What does she do?

uh she's a speech pathologist oh that's good yeah what do you do i'm in golf okay uh as in a professional golfer uh no the other side not i'm a class apga member but we're not i'm not a professional golfer i just uh help other people get better at all oh you're an instructor okay yeah okay good and what do you make um i make about 42. and she's only making 42 as an as a speech pathologist

Yeah, so right after she got out of graduate school, it's a little lower, and then once she gets her season, it goes up. Oh, when will she pass that? Next couple months here. Okay, and what will her income go to then? She'll be at about 65 after that. Still sounds low. Hmm, okay. I was actually thinking speech pathologists generally made six figures.

But what do I know? Nope. Maybe not. Maybe not in Omaha. I was going to say maybe not Nebraska. Okay. But the all right. So, okay. So you guys are going to end up making a little over a hundred at that point. You got 145 plus 25. The car is pretty expensive. The $25,000 car is bothersome in the equation. It's not the end of the world, but it's a lot. I mean, you got an $800 car payment, right?

Um, it's about four 70. Oh, okay. That's better than I thought. Okay, good. All right. Anyway, so yeah, you, so you've got 160,000 bucks to come up with making a hundred. And so if we do 50 a year, uh, that's three and a half, three years and some change. So we need to do 60 a year and be done in three years.

And that's going to be beans and rice, rice and beans, no vacations, no eating out. We're going to lean into this thing, and we are going to clean up our mess.

And she is going to maximize her career that she paid a lot to be in because I'm still got my head sideways a little bit. Got that German shepherd look right now on what she's making. I just doesn't sound right. So I'm not an expert on speech pathology, but I've been doing this a long time. So I've interviewed a lot of people about what they make for what they do. And.

And so, um, anyway, I want you to work on that. I want her to get every squeeze, every dollar out of this degree field that she paid a lot for to get a return on investment. And cause she's got high income potential and, uh, you got to do as much as you can do also to increase your income. And in your field, I suspect there's some side gigs, so to speak, that you could do, uh, that weren't with club members or whatever they were. You're not in a conflict, uh,

And I'd be working every tournament, everything I could get my hands on to do that as well. So all of that to say, you guys maximize your incomes. And I'm with Jade. I think you just change your pronouns and just go, look, honey, we've got debt. If you want to talk about it like it's yours, it's fine. But I married you. It's now we. We're French. Oui, oui. And this is what we do. And we are going to attack our debt. And out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth, the

speaks the Bible says and so if you never again speak of it except in terms of plural our we that kind of pronoun versus yours mine if you never again speak it then that says that your heart has shifted and

And as long as your heart is there, then eventually she will acquiesce to that because we are going to work on this together. We are going to knock this out. We are both going to sacrifice. We are going to clean this loan mess up so that we have a good future. Yeah, yeah. Love is the only thing that really drives out that shame that she's going to feel. And that's the way you do it is just by coming alongside her and it being a we. The good news is with their situation, he said her income is going to go up 63%.

some odd thousand dollars no 260 oh 260 from 40 oh if i miss unless i misunderstood him uh i may have misunderstood him but either way i hope it goes up 60 goes from 40 to 100 that's going to be very helpful that's what i'm saying that makes more sense that makes a two-year plan then instead of a three-year plan yeah okay i like that either way they're going and they're paying it off yeah either way we're going to lean into it i mean it took you guys longer than that and

Significantly longer. You accepted each other and didn't shame each other in that process. And that's how you all did it. Yeah. That's a big key. Now, I always say, like, I don't take much credit for that. Like I always say, I don't know if I was very wise or just like love is blind. But, you know, I just didn't see it any differently. It's both of ours.

Well, I mean, we did it in a little different setting, but I mean, it was our income. Yes. And I have never, I don't remember ever saying to Sharon, I brought this money home. I'll decide what I want to do. I don't think I've ever said that. Dave, I think that's equally important. Yeah. Equally important. Yeah. Our debt, our income. Yeah. For 38 years, she's not had an income earned outside the home. Well, yeah, because what spouse wants to feel like I'm getting to have some of your income?

Yeah. That's a recipe for somebody. That's a recipe for disaster. It's a power play. Yeah. And it's relationally unhealthy, number one. And it becomes a manipulation and all that kind of stuff. Like, you know, well, only when we have a big fight is when I yell at you and say, it's my money. Yeah. But other than that, I say, it's our money. You know, and it's like, yeah, if you're going to play that, that's a power play. Yeah. That's a manipulation play. And then that's when you find out what's in the heart. That's right. Out of the abundance of the heart.

the mouth speaks. So when someone is saying something, you need to listen because it's coming from inside of them. Oh yeah. Cause if the words that people use do matter. And so I'm listening to that, I'm watching that. I'm thinking about that. So you're going to be on the other side of that, Justin, and you're going to be just fine. Y'all are going to, the point is bust through it and it doesn't matter. And over time, uh,

Both of you will adopt the proper pronouns regarding your money. That's right. This is The Ramsey Show.

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Jade Walsh, our Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author, is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Maya is in Salt Lake City. Hi, Maya. How are you? Doing great. Thank you for all the work that you all do. Thank you. How can we help? I am calling because we have two debts left. We have our primary mortgage, and we have the mortgage on a rental property, and we're wondering which one we should pay off first. Cool. How much are they?

The rental property has 130K balance, 3.785% interest. Our mortgage is 457, 2.75% interest. Household income is what?

530 whoa come on now good for you in the last two three years i'm happy for you way to go successful people in salt lake what do you do we're very grateful very blessed my husband works for delta and in the last year and a half he uh switched over to the captain's seat so um we're very happy yeah yeah that's awesome and he's gone a lot too oh okay wow

Wow. Well, good for you guys. I'm so proud for you. Okay. So the only trade-off in my mind is this, is I always do a risk analysis first and

And the way I look at that is if everything went sideways, which you're a long way from everything going sideways, you're square in the middle of prosperity, right? But if everything went sideways and I was going to lose one of these, which one would I want to lose? Well, I'd want to lose the rental. So it's always the second to pay off unless it has a super small mortgage and I could just knock it out real fast. Now, relative to your income, right?

What would be your plan to have both of these paid off? How long will it take you? Making 500, you need 550, right? Right. Right. So we were figuring three years. Okay. So really it doesn't matter because in three years, both of them are gone. Yes, sir. Yeah. And so if we said that, then really we're talking about of the three years, two years is your house, one year is the other.

give or take not quite yes but more of it's the house so hmm well that see the speed at which you're doing it kind of makes me on the bubble i don't really care um so what would i do if i will i'll tell you how i'm thinking about it with your first risk assessment the one that you'd want to lose i'd want to know what the rental property is worth what is it worth it's worth about 300

$300. And your home is worth what? $790. Ooh, interesting. I'm paying off my house. I'm paying off the house too because if you had told me that the rental was worth plenty of what it would take to pay off the primary, I might say, oh, go ahead and pay it off. Like you said, if you had a risk scenario and you came on hard times, you could always sell it and pay off the primary, but it wouldn't bring enough to do that. Right.

So that's why I would go with Dave. Yeah, and you're going to pay it off. And I'm thinking of the non-math benefits that end up being math benefits, like peace. Like when you pay off your home, you feel different than when you pay off your rental. Agreed?

Agreed. Yeah. And so we paid off our cars and you know that you can get to and from work and not have to wonder if you're dropping the kids off at school. It felt so good. Yeah. Like the stupid thing doesn't start. At least it's mine. You know, that kind of stuff. Yeah. I also think there's something of it. I'm like, if anybody's living in the paid for house, it's me, not the renters. Yeah. I like that. There's that thing. Yeah. I mean, if you owed like 45 or 50, I just knocked the rental out. Like it was a credit card debt or something and just knock it out quick. But

It's kind of on the bubble because of the way the math works in your scenario. So, you know, for the peace and the non-math benefits of being debt-free on your personal residence, I'll put it in line first. Keep in mind, we're only having a discussion here of one year.

Yeah. That's the only difference is which one's paid by one year. Yeah. That's the only difference. If you put the rental in front, it delays that by one year. Yeah. If you put the rental behind, it makes it sooner by only one year. So it's not a if, it's not a 10-year issue, but with her math, that's what we're talking about. So it's not, it almost doesn't matter. Yeah. But just if I was going to get right down to it, I'm going to knock out the personal residence because...

I think so many good things happen that people don't even anticipate when they're debt free on their house that I'm going to put them there as soon as I can. 100%. Hey, let me be a Pharisee real quick. Okay. So let's pretend that. And by the way, you folks notice interest rate did not matter in that discussion. No, not at all. Not at all. Over three years, it's irrelevant. Let's pretend that the numbers worked out a little bit differently and we were vying for her to pay off the rental first. Mm-hmm.

I know there's people who are listening going, well, Dave, she shouldn't have bought a rental anyway if she didn't pay for it in cash. Why would you tell her to pay off the rental first and not the primary? I don't liquidate real estate unless it's causing a problem. Yeah, for her it's not. I liquidate a car in a heartbeat. I'll sell your car on you in a minute.

in a moment. Well, it's also depreciating. Yeah. Well, I mean, and cars are just land of stupid when it comes to money stuff. Yeah. But real estate, it's so cumbersome and expensive to liquidate and it's time consuming and everything else. I got a house for sale right now. My personal residence is for sale and it's just, it's a thing. Yeah. It's a thing.

And so real estate, if you call in and you're in trouble and you're in deep stuff up your neck, I'm going to start selling off the kids, three of the dogs, everything. But the house is the last thing I'm going to sell unless you're just unless you got a mortgage payment that's, you know, 50 percent of your take home pay and you've got to get out of it.

All right. I'm going to play another game because I like this. All right. The Pharisee, the devil's advocate, whatever game this is. Because I get into other people's brain. Okay. Now there's a guy listening. He's like, well, I make $500,000 a year. I already live in a house that's 457, but I'm looking at a piece of real estate that's 300,000. Why can't I go buy it?

Well, because the goal, the number one goal in the whole discussion is to become debt free and stay debt free. It's not. Now, if she called me up and said, I've got 10 rentals. Sure. I might be liquidating some of those. That's right. In order to get to debt free faster and pick which one. Okay. Pick the one you don't like and dump it. Right. That kind of stuff. I'm probably, and you've heard me do that if you listen to the show all the time. So because the shortest distance between where you are now and,

And wealth is not your income. It's the freedom of your income, not going to someone else in the form of debt payments. That is what builds wealth, again, for the first $1 to $10 million worth of net worth. That's what all of the data shows us.

And so freeing up your income, it becomes my number one goal here. Yeah. And not going into debt to buy real estate. That's not my number one goal. As a matter of fact, it's the antithesis of our number one goal. Love it. Good question, though. It's good clarification to bring it up. And, you know, people bring up all kinds of things. Here's the point. 100% of the time, that's all the time, the borrower is slave to the lender.

100% of the time that you engage in debt, you are submitting yourself to some form of mathematical, relational, some kind of slavery. 100% of the time. And 100% of the time you call this show, we're going to tell you not to do it. This is The Ramsey Show.

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Hey good folks, it's Deloney, and with Back to School Madness on deck, my family's schedule is already so packed. And we haven't even made room for things like exercise and date nights and counseling and all the other things that make our life even worth living. When it comes to taking care of me, I have to remember to put on my oxygen mask first, meaning I have to do the things that help me stay well and whole. And you have to do the same thing too.

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Be sure to put your oxygen mask on first and never skip therapy day. Call my friends at BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash Deloney today for 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Deloney. Jade Walshaw, Ramsey Personality is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us, America. Sam's in Birmingham. Hi, Sam. How are you? I'm doing good, Dave. How are y'all? Better than I deserve. What's up?

So, I'm going into my third year of law school this next year, and I financed law school through student loans. And now my grandmother, who has a lot of money in checking account, she is offered to pay my student loans through finance.

are a loan servicer so that I can pay her back without interest. And so I'm just wondering if, because I've heard you kind of go against inter-family loans and saying that that might rub the relationship, and I don't want to do that with my grandmother. So I was just wondering if I should

Tell her that that's a good thing to do or just taking a gift, maybe, you know, less than the full amount of the loans. I just am wondering how to navigate that. Yeah. Wow. So how wealthy is your grandmother? She is. She's very wealthy. What's very wealthy? I don't know what that means. Is she worth $10 million or $1 million or $500,000? What's very wealthy?

I would say two to three million. Okay. And how many grandkids does she have? She, including my mom, she has four. Kids or grandkids? Grandkids, I think maybe five or six. You don't know how many cousins you have? Well, some of them aren't under my mom's dad, so I'm trying to think in my head.

Okay, but I'm asking, your grandmother has $3 million that presumably will be left to her kids and grandkids, correct? Yes, sir. How many siblings do you have? I have one sibling. Okay, all right. And your mother has how many brothers and sisters or half-brothers and sisters? She, one just passed away, so she has three. Okay. Okay.

All right. Because the reason I'm trying to do all this, I'm trying to add up. If your share of the inheritance is 140, we might ask her to just advance you your inheritance, but not loan it to you, not loan it to you, gift it to you, only to put on the student loan. Okay. Or any share of your inheritance that she does want to advance to you as a gift.

I would accept that gladly and put it on your student loans. Even if it was an obligation to put it on student loans, I still would accept that. Would I accept a loan to save the interest? 100% no, never. Okay.

Yeah, and I guess, so in my head, my mom would be devised some money to the will, but... I don't know how the estate plan is working, and I guess that's something you need to find out. Is there any of this money, this $3 million, that's going to come your way when your grandmother passes? If the answer is zero, then obviously she cannot advance you against your inheritance because the answer is zero. Yes, sir. So if it's all coming to your mom...

And her brothers and sisters, and they're not leaving any to the grandkids directly, which is not that unusual, by the way. Then you don't have an inheritance out of this. Or if your mom wanted to agree to accept the amount that your grandmother gives you less as an advance on her inheritance, and it go through to you now, that's okay. If you guys, the three of you, want to talk that out,

You and granny and mom. Okay. I'm fine with that. If you don't want to talk about, don't do it. And if you, but in no circumstances are we going to do alone? If I'm you. Who's having these conversations? Is it you and your grandmother talking directly or is this that you're fine? Are you finding out about this by way of your mom or whoever? How's the conversation look?

So it started with a phone call with my grandmother and my mom on the line. And so I told my mother and grandmother that, you know, she probably needs to talk to her estate planning attorney. And my grandmother's kind of like, well, I can go down to the bank and get the money right now. And I'm like, well, you can, but you also get screwed by gift tax. Your advice was correct.

Yeah, I just, I wanted to see what the relationship was because it does feel presumptuous in many ways to be like, hey, just give me my inheritance in advance. Like I could see that feeling awkward. No, he didn't bring it up though. Yeah, he didn't bring it up. Yeah, I'd say, Granny, I'm not comfortable doing a loan. If you and mom want to talk about a way that this is an advance on some of the estate plan and either mom's share or my share or however it works is reduced by the amount you want to give me to reduce the student loans,

I can talk about that as a gift, and we'll put it on the student loans, but I don't want to be in debt to you, and I'll just work it out. But thank you so much for the kind offer. I honor you. I appreciate that. I know you've got plenty of money, but the idea of me having to pay my grandmother payments makes me ill, and I would never want to do that because I love you too much. And that's how it sounds. Does that make sense?

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. That's where my head was at on it. Thank you all very much. Thank you for calling in, man. I appreciate it. And so family does this stuff. Mom and dad are going to loan the grown kids money

money to buy a better house so their grandkids have a better place to live yeah and uh and but we'll do it at four percent interest because the going rate's six and i can't make that on the down at the money market anyway so you just pay me what i was going to make on the money market i've heard that story like i don't know yeah a bazillion times and sometimes it all works out but usually at least one or two people in the equation you know here's what i discovered okay when we went broke sharon's dad

who is one of the nicest men. He may be a saint. Yeah. He's one of the nicest men I've ever met. And just a kind, good man. We went broke and he loaned us some money to keep our house, to bring the house up current. So when we filed bankruptcy, we could keep the house. And I never thought anything about it because I borrowed it up to my eyeballs and just went bankrupt. Hello. I mean, you know, and that's where I came up with the saying,

Thanksgiving dinner tastes different when you eat with your master don't I know it because here's the thing it bothered him not at all he never thought a thing about it he's the nicest guy didn't bother him a bit but he was the master it bothered his daughter my wife not at all because as far as her she was concerned daddy was helping and that's what daddies do not a big deal

It about killed me. You had sweaty armpits, yeah. Yeah, that's how I lost my hair right there. I'm just saying. Oh, I know the feeling. And he never said an unkind or shaming thing to me once. Yeah. Never one time. And yet I carried all of this.

It just ate at me and in silence. And it was after I paid it off. And years later, when I'm learning this borrower slave to the lender thing, I'm learning this. I'm going, well, that's what happened. I changed my relationship with my father-in-law, who I love dearly, to master.

And even if your master, when you're a slave, is a kind master, you are still a slave. That's so true, Dave. We did the same thing with our, we were upside down on a Hummer, of all things. Oh, God. And we knew. That's almost as bad as my Jaguar. I know. It's bad. Ew.

yeah we were jaguar was the one yeah that's the same stuff but bad credit you know couldn't get a loan for the difference so our mother-in-law who i would agree one of the most generous people i know lent us the money and it just i mean i couldn't pay it i couldn't pay it off fast enough because it just yeah so from their point of view it's generosity and it's kindness and they uphold all of that well they never thought anything about it yeah it never didn't bother them a bit listen being the master is not hard

It's being a slave. It's hard. That's right. That's the easy position in the story. And so, yeah, that's a good, it's a really good call, Zachary. Thank you. Not Zachary, I'm sorry, Sam. That's a good question. And it's a valid question. Moms and dads do good things bad ways. Grandmothers do good things bad ways. That's so true. Because they're ignorant about it. They just don't know. Just mean well. Ignorance is not malice. It's just, I don't know. This is the Ramsey Show.

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Jade Walshaw, Ramsey Personality is my co-host today. Today's question comes from Erica in Kentucky. Yeah, she says, my husband runs a landscaping company that's owned by his father.

He's been told for years that he'll be taking over the business soon and he does everything in the business except collect the checks and send the invoices. He has put in a ton of time and invested a lot of money into this business, but he makes the same hourly wage as the other employees on payroll. He's trying to be patient, but with the low pay and amount of work that he has put in, it doesn't add up for me. And personally, I think he's being used.

His dad is now trying to talk him into buying equipment with debt to invest into the business he doesn't yet own. I'm stuck in the middle and seem to have no say because he trusts his family's promises. How can I best support my husband while also keeping things cordial in the family? You can't. Uh-uh. Okay, so...

In Genesis, it says, "...a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." And that's where the old-time preacher would say, "...leave and cleave." You leave your father and mother and you cleave, an old English term that became part of the biblical lingo because of King James Version of the Bible. But you leave your parents and cling to your spouse.

Your husband has not done that. You have a marriage problem. I agree. He's still married to his daddy. 100%. You know, whether they're intending to use him or not,

it's not a fair situation just reading what you've wrote there's nothing fair here um if he's doing a job and it's above and beyond what other workers are being paid for the job that they're doing yeah that's unfair now there is something to be said for um but we can't even have that discussion because he won't talk to her he listens to daddy yeah but I mean back when I used to work back when I used to work in the cruise business they would say you know

I signed my contract, you signed yours, which was basically a saying of, hey, don't complain to me now that this is not fair because you knew what you were getting into when you signed it. And so there's part of it. I'm like, the more that he continues to sign that contract, he's saying, yes, I agree with this. The problem is not your father-in-law. The problem is your husband. Yeah, because he's agreeing.

Yeah, he's going along with this and he's not listening to his wife. Okay. Now, if we stop there and say, okay, I'm going to quit doing that. I'm going to listen to my wife. And my wife says this is unfair. Now we can talk about, oh, is it unfair or not? Well, here's some good rules for family business. And I coach a lot of family businesses. Got them.

world famous podcast called Entree Leadership, where I coach family businesses every single week. And, you know, millions and tens of thousands of them are being coached by us right now by Ramsey. Okay. So we deal with them all the time. So here's the, here's the guidelines. Very simple. You do not invest money in a business you do not own. I don't care who owns it or what the promise was period.

If I walked up off the street and said, hey, Mr. Employee, would you put money into my business? Well, they'd have to be brain damaged to do that. The only time you'd be brain damaged enough to do that would be your own stupid family. So no, we're not doing it with a stupid family either. No. Number one. Number two, when you work in any business, you're only worth what the marketplace says that position is worth.

You're not worth any more because you're the golden child or any less because you're family. We get to work our family for free. That's why we had a lot of kids. No, that's not the plan. This is not what we're doing. And so Rachel Cruz, Ramsey personality, makes exactly the same percentage on royalties on books, exactly the same percentage on speaking gigs that Jade sitting beside me makes.

Rachel Cruz makes the same as John Deloney. Now, they don't have the same income, but they have the same percentage of their deal. Now, one of them may sell more books or less books. One of them may have more speaking or whatever, right? But that's not the point. The point is they're on the same schedule, and she gets paid for that, not because she's my daughter. And she doesn't get paid less because she's my daughter either.

And so that's a simple formula that you should go with. The third formula with family business is if you say you're going to turn over a business to a family member, you need to never say that unless you say when. Someday it'll all be yours. When you're 76 and I'm 104...

Right. What kind of crap is that? That vague stuff. Nobody knows what you're talking about. You got one. So when you say to a 30 year old someday, it'll all be yours. He thinks next week and you think a decade from now. So you need to say not someday. You say so you need to have you work hard someday. It'll all be yours. Oh, brother. How about I don't want to be in the landscaping business with you.

There's a whole new idea, too. I'd rather start my own thing. I could make three times as much money as you're paying me. So all that can come up only after we can have some basic family business principles in place for operating a family business and treating each other with equity and with dignity and with high communication levels. And then you don't get to play the role of resentful wife.

either you have to play the role of supportive wife then that's right if your husband wants to do this he likes working with his dad and he's being treated fairly and i don't think you're saying you just don't like these people but you're starting to not like them because you're getting because they're standing between you and your husband and that's a fair complaint right there yeah she said i'm stuck in the middle how do you get stuck in the middle you can't get stuck in the middle of one thank you i'm like there's a

A party there that should not be there. Party of one. Yeah. So I think you and your husband need to sit down and discuss who's in charge here of your life. You and him or his daddy.

And then once we decide that, then we can have a discussion about who gets paid what and if we want to take this business over and under what circumstances. But this is where it is. And so, yeah, it's... Those are tough conversations. Yeah, it is. Because when you're in it, like if it's your family, sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees. But then if you're the in-law, it's like you can't say, you know what I mean? Like there's certain things that as the in-laws, like you can't say to your in-laws,

family-in-law right because it just she can't talk to them at all no she can't she's not got any footing to do it at all plus she's pissed off yeah so it's not gonna go well if you write a letter to a radio show you pissed all right just put it in that bucket right there yeah

Yeah. I don't care how much language. I really like them you put in there. You wrote a letter to a podcast. Yeah. So I'm just saying. Yeah. Yeah. Honey, you got a marriage problem. You need to stop being angry with your father-in-law. He's not the problem. Your husband's the problem. The two of you being on the same page and him putting you and him as a family unit ahead of everything else.

starts the conversation that's where it is leave and cleave it's an interesting study look it up the number of people who never leave their mother never leave their father after they're married uh and the damage that does to their marriage relationship is it's it's everywhere yeah 100 and it's hard to do it when you live in the basement oh gosh you took it to you always take it to the next level always go always go there too just just helping you with this helping you with this

Oh, boy. Yeah, that's important. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Jade, you know why we will always have a compelling and entertaining show? Because human beings are going to do stupid stuff. And we human beings, when we do stupid stuff, me and you included, we're just downright entertaining. Yeah, 100% every time. You know, this whole building wealth thing, the math is sixth grade.

It's the stupid humans that mess it up. It doesn't require any thought. I mean, there's not that much to it. Live on less than you make. We'd be out of business. And the funny thing is, it's the same stuff over and over, and we've all done it. But it's relational. Yeah. You know, I was reading a thing the other day. It matters more in terms of wealth building. It matters more who you marry than where you went to school. All day. I believe that all day.

So important. And that case in point right there. This is The Ramsey Show. Thanks for joining us, America. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Jade Warshaw, Ramsey personality, is my co-host. The best way to make the most of your money is by creating and sticking to a plan to be intentional. A plan in the money world is called a budget. Just tell your money what to do instead of wondering where it went.

Every dollar makes it simple to plan your spending. It is the world's best, most robust budgeting app. Tens of millions of people are using this.

Keep pulse on your spending, make progress on your money goals, follow the baby steps, hit every milestone, get your questions answered, work the system. Every dollar of the budgeting app will help you do it. You can download it for free in the App Store or Google Play today. Jay is in Mobile, Alabama. Hi, Jay. How are you? Cool. Doing great. Thanks for having me today. Sure. What's up?

Um, I, I'm doing some, one of the least favorite things I ever do in life, which is shopping for a car. Um, and we are, my wife and I are on baby step seven. Um, we have about $15,000 saved so far for a car purchase. Um, but I'm just, I'm wondering what, um,

what you recommend in terms of a price range for a car for someone in my situation, because I'm looking at these car prices, and unfortunately, I remember what cars cost pre-pandemic, and I got sticker shock here. Yeah. What's your net worth? $800,000. And what's your household income? $160,000. Okay. And you're talking about paying what for a car?

The one that the car we're looking at, it looks like the average cost is $25,000 to $30,000. Okay. What is it? That would be a 21 or 22 Chrysler Pacifica minivan with 40,000 miles or less. Okay. All right. And you've got 15, but you don't have the rest of it? Well, we've got... Or you just got to reallocate some of your investments to buy your wife a car? Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, we've got...

We've got plenty. We could write a check. What we're probably going to do is leave that 15 there and take the next few months and save another five or six. So you're saving it. You're not reallocating. Yeah.

Right. And we're going to sell my wife's car and get about six from that. So, you know, we're going to, so we're, we're just, we're, we're, we're creeping up to it, but I'm just, uh, I'd say do it. It's uncomfortable turning around, turning loose of that much cash all at once. You are a serious type of guy. Yeah. I love you. Well, I mean, the question I have to ask, well, what's the alternative? That would be my question for you. What's the alternative? You don't buy the, the 20, $25,000 car. What would be your alternative? Um, uh,

Well, I mean, if I'm going to buy a car, that's really the only car I'm going to buy because we want to keep it 10 years plus. We want to drive them as long as we can. And so, you know, I don't want to buy anything a lot older than that. I don't want to buy anything with a lot more miles on that. So then there's not an alternative. This is the car or this is the, you know, this is what you're willing to spend $25,000. And you realize you have the money, right? Yes. Yes. You're not a broke guy calling me up wanting to buy a $30,000 car.

No, no, not at all. Do it. Pull the trigger. Thank you for that perspective. I appreciate that. You bet. What happens is as our incomes increase and our net worths increase, sometimes our emotions don't keep up. And so like Ramsey does about $300 million a year in revenue, and what we spend on coffee is,

For our team, we got 1,100 people here, and the coffee's free for employees. So what we spend on coffee...

blows my freaking mind okay because my mind emotionally still is back when the company was making 10 million not 300 million you know and and we had and we had 10 people or 20 people not 1100 and so i can't i can intellectually look around and see it and i know we're okay but i look down and i go you've got to be kidding me or what we spend on copier paper

You know, I mean, it's just like bizarre stuff at volume, you know, and my emotions have not kept up and I have to,

I have to stop as an act of my will and go Dave you're okay you're okay Dave you're not going to die because I'm ready to kill something I'm ready to go have some of that caffeine right now and just jack them up but no but I mean that's that's what you're dealing with man that's what I'm my point is it's a normal human thing your brain is not functioning at an 800,000 net worth $160,000 income when you're having this discussion about a car that's it's a true thing I

Let me put it on an even smaller scale because you've got this giant company. So, you know, usually when we buy paper towels, we buy the big Costco thing. You have a big supply of them in the house. Well, we ran out of paper towels. How is that possible if you buy that from Costco? You'd have enough for 10 years. How could you possibly run out? I have kids.

I have a dog. Dave, we ran out. I said to Sam, go out and get some paper towels. Costco's far, so he just went to Publix. Do you know he came back with a single roll of every great value paper towels? And I was like, I said, what am I supposed to do with this?

And he was like, and it was like, once I pointed it out, he realized he was like, oh, like that was the, the broke Sam broke Sam went and got one and got one roll of the cheapest paper towels. And I was like, that old man has got to get out of here. Cause I need you to go get me brawny. Get me a big Sam. You're fired.

We're sending you to Costco to get multi-rolls of the good stuff. Yeah, that was the old way. That's what you do when you're broke. You go get a four-pack of Angel Soft. You get the smallest. That's good.

Well, that's what I'm functioning. I'm functioning in broke Dave. Broke Dave couldn't, he didn't make, his income was not what our coffee budget is. It's the old man. Yeah. That's broke Dave. Yeah. So Dave, but Dave, you're okay. You're okay. You can afford the car, buy the car, pay cash for it. Enjoy it. Happy wife. Happy life. Ooh. Yeah. And you know, the federal law wife gets the good car. That's federal law. That's right. Okay. Zachary's in Indianapolis. Hey, Zachary, what's up?

Dave, Jade, nice to talk to you guys. How are you? Better than we deserve. How can we help? So what I've got going on this year, I've paid almost just under $20,000 off in debt, including just credit cards. And I've already cut my truck payment or I'm sorry, my truck loan in half. Good for you. So I've got 14,000 left and I,

basically stay with my girlfriend pretty much every night. I have an apartment. She has a house that will be paid off by the end of this year. Um, we plan on moving in together, uh, next month when my lease is up. So I will be able to save, um, basically half of my rent and all utilities that come with it. But she's a very big Dave Ramsey follower as well. And I guess our question is, um, would you support that?

Because I know the whole don't play house if you're not married, but this is the one, and that is my goal. Then marry her next year. Marry her? Yes, sir. Before you move in. How old are you? I'm 27. Someday, you're going to have a daughter. How do you want a guy to treat her? End of story. End of story. End of story. We're not blaming sex convenience on money saving.

So if you want to get married, get married. If you don't, quit acting like it. You asked me. Yeah, that was going to say that he said the way he set it up. I was like, Dave is about to come through like a freight train. But you you showed restraint. Good job. Well, I'm you know, I get it. I understand it. And I understand how your brain has worked your way through this. But all the data tells us.

that the highest quality marriage does not occur with people that first live together. All the data tells us your highest probability of marriage success. I've been married 43 years and we hadn't killed each other yet. So we call that a success. That's in the success column. We're both alive.

And so if you want to check the box, all the data says that the best probability of getting there. And nobody talks about this. Yeah, that's data. It's like the culture. It's like you're not allowed to say that. You're telling people that, well, you shouldn't ask if you don't want me to say it.

So I'll just tell you, if you were dating one of my daughters or you were my son, I'd give you the exact same answer I just gave you, sir. I love you so much. I want good things for you. If you want to live with a young lady, marry her first. This is The Ramsey Show. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people.

Build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Jade Walsh, all Ramsey personalities, my co-host. Thank you for joining us, America. We're so glad you're here. Open phones at 888-825-5225. April is with us in Detroit. Hi, April. Hi, how are you? Great. What's up? I was calling to see if I should buy a new car.

I have put about over $6,000 in the car over the last less than two months. And I am a single parent, so I'm just like, I'm a little overwhelmed with the amount of money that I'm dumping into the car. $6,000 in two months? Did you rebuild it? I had to put a new transmission in and then...

This morning, my car wouldn't start, and the tow truck driver told me that I could possibly be looking at a new engine. They did, however, call me back and let me know that it would be a new starter, so I would be looking at another $600. So when I look at the value of my car, it is around $7,000, but I also have a daughter that is going into high school.

And I just want to make sure that I have something that is good on the road, but at the same time, I'm not trying to go into more debt. You owe money on the $7,000 car? Yes. How much? Oh, well, if I buy a new car. No, honey, how much do you owe on the $7,000 car? Oh, I owe $4,800. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Do you have any money laying around at all? I have about $5,000 left and all of this money is coming out of my savings that I put to the side to buy a house. What do you have set aside? The $5,000 is all that's left, period? Yes. Okay. So I'm a bit frustrated. Yeah, I bet. Because how much did you start with?

I was like right around $12,000. I'm sorry. What's your income? I make around $65,000 a year. Okay, good. You know, for me, I'd want to start looking and seeing what's out there. You know, your car's worth $7,000. You owe $4,800 on it. If you sold it, what would you get? $7,000. Yeah, and I looked up the Kelly Blue Book. Okay.

And it's at a great price. I could get about $65,000, $7,000. Yeah.

Yeah, I'd probably try to get out of it and put some more money with it and get into something else. But this time around, I would do a lot more research on getting the car. If I were in your shoes, I'd be asking around, does anybody have a car that they're selling? Is there anybody at my church who has a car and they were the only driver and I can get into it for super cheap? That's the type of research I'd want to do because, you know, if you're going to choose an older car with more miles, you do want to know what you're getting into. Yeah.

Flat out. Here's what you're looking for, okay? You're looking for a car that no one thinks is impressive. All we're looking for is reliability, okay? Okay. You would trade. What kind of car have you got now? A 2016 Ford Fusion. Okay. All right. So we want to get a car that has a little bit of size to it, a little bit of substance to it,

Um, and, uh, the drive train and the engine have a little bit of oomph to them. Um, they're not being strained every time you start the stupid thing. And these, these little baby cars, they're always in a strain. And so, um, it's always a problem. And so you're looking for, um, something like a used Camry, a used Accord, uh,

I used Taurus, something like that, and that family of mid-sized vehicles. You're looking for something that probably is going to have to have a name because it's ugly. Old Blue, Big Red, Bessie. Okay? But Bessie has very few miles. A horrible paint job in the interior is not much. The radio might not work.

Certainly doesn't have Apple Play. Okay? So Bessie is 100% of the time going to turn on when you turn the key and get you there, and 100% of the time is not going to get you a date.

And I'm okay with that. Yeah, okay. As long as I get to where I need to go. That's what we're after. You get my point. I call them garage sale cars because sometimes you'll find a $5,000 car like that in the garage of a granny who's died and they're having an estate sale.

And it's got dust half an inch thick on it. And it smells like Estee Lauder inside. Right? That's the kind of car you're looking for. That's the one I want right there. Because she has, you know, it's faded. And so nobody knows how much love is left in this thing. But there's a lot of love left in it. That's the type of vehicle you're looking for. The second piece of advice I'll give you, do you have family in the area?

I do. Okay. Are you in a good church? Yes, I am. Okay. Get a guy from one of those two pools, from church or family, that knows a little bit about vehicles to help you shop for two reasons. One is they'll give you information, but I think you're capable of doing it. Two is sometimes people that are selling cars are the most sexist human beings on the planet.

And an ugly guy standing there who don't know nothing will get further than a brilliant woman standing there. And that's not right, but it is a fact. And so if you got your old Uncle Henry standing there and he's scratching his armpit and he just shakes his head, that sometimes will make you $1,000 on the dadgum negotiation. You follow me? Yes. And it might be that Uncle Henry actually knows something about a car, too. That'd be handy.

And so you don't step off into it again. Then the last thing I'll give you is this. I've got two more things. I can't stop because I think you're incredible. Okay? You've been fighting a battle all by yourself and been losing, and you just called us just to say, I don't know what to do. I'm scared. And I think you're stronger than you think you are. You're a warrior princess. Okay? So here's the deal. The next time you have a $7,000 car, never put $6,000 in it again.

You cut bait sooner than that. Okay. We don't spend $6,000 on a $7,000 car. We sell it for salvage and take the $6,000 and buy a good car. Okay. You don't put more in a car than it's worth. And then the last thing in this series of instructions I'm giving you is this too shall pass. You're still going to get a house. It's just going to be a little bit longer than you thought it was because of this stupid car, but you're still going to get there.

you're still going to win. And 10 years from now, this will be a story you tell your kids about the time you went and bought old Bessie. And you're going to be okay. This is The Ramsey Show. Jade Walsh, all Ramsey personality, best-selling author, is my co-host. Speaking of best-selling authors, one of my good friends, Dr. Henry Cloud, dropped by.

He is the author of the famous book Boundaries, among many others, and Integrity and Necessary Endings, and, and, and, and, and many others. And...

Henry and I, inside baseball, are good friends. We spend a lot of time together. Our wives do. And last winter, he sent me a manuscript, and I was sitting and reading it, and tears running down my face. And I went, Henry, this is a different Henry Cloud book. This is way different than anything you've done. The new book is out. It is officially a national bestseller. It came out a couple of weeks ago, Why I Believe.

A Psychologist's Thoughts on Suffering, Miracles, Science, and Faith. This book is different for you, and it was real personal, real vulnerable for you, wasn't it? It was very vulnerable. I never had done that before. You know, I write books on psychology and business, and sometimes how faith interacts with that. I never had written one on faith, and it...

It's probably the easiest way to summarize it is in the preface. It starts with, I have a problem, and this book is my attempt to solve it. I love God. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's real. He's proven that to me for decades. That's not my problem. My problem is I love my friends, and many of them don't know him. And I struggle sometimes with how to talk to him. It's a hard conversation with some people.

And, you know, it's divisive for some people. They feel threatened. They feel uneasy. They feel like you're trying to convert them. And I had so many friends in business and other places that just never have gotten into that conversation. I said, dadgummit, that's not being a good friend either. I'm going to solve my problem. So all the things we never talked about. Why I believe. Why I believe.

This is why I'm one of those weirdos. Why you're one of those Christians. Yeah. One of us Christians. I like it. But the way you go at it, the approach, is almost like...

Like you're solving the objections. It's like, okay, you think this, but here's what I see. And then some people think this, and this is what I see. And yeah. And you walk through several different chapters on that and how suffering miracles, science and faith all can coexist. Yeah. It started, I didn't know any other way to do it except tell my story, which came out of deep suffering. I mean, I was almost non-functional depressed way back when, and

reached out to God one day, didn't know if he was really there or not. And he showed up and, you know, the book goes through the whole sad story, how he took me from hitting the pavement to being above the waterline, how he healed me. But then also a lot of miracles that I've seen along the way. And the why I believe started out with me realizing that he was real. But then when I, when I became a Christian in a,

real way, all of a sudden I had all these intellectual quandaries because everybody told me, you know, science is disproving the Bible. It's a bunch of myths and all this. So I did a deep dive for a long time into those questions. As an intellectual, you got a problem. Yeah. You put your brain in a jar or something. And so the book kind of also goes through how those questions were resolved for me.

And then it ends up with one area of science I actually know something about, and that's psychology. And I talk about how the science of psychology proved the Bible to me to be true. And a lot of people know you as one of America's great psychologists, and you've written and spoken all over the world on these subjects. But I don't think a lot of people know the story that you actually are a wounded healer.

that you actually came out of, the way you got into psychology was you discovered it on your own path to healing. Right. You know, one of my favorite verses says, we comfort others with the comfort by which God has comforted us. Sort of like your story. I mean, you didn't start off above the waterline in finance. No, bankrupt, no. But coming through struggle, you learn things. And...

What I learned in that struggle was that there are real answers to healing. I mean, we can heal from this stuff, major stuff, you know, PTSD, depression, anxiety, all of that. But there are ways that that has to happen. And God took me through those. And then I learned more about them.

And slowly, I just realized, gosh, that's something I wanted to give my life to. And that's how it happened. Yeah. You know, I'm a Christian person, too. I'm a Christ follower. And I think the number one thing that people have a hard time reconciling is if God is real, why is there so much suffering? You know, why would all these horrible things be happening? And so...

it sounds like you're talking about that very question inside of this book. I did get that question pretty deeply. Yeah, because to me, that's the hardest one. Absolutely. And especially when people are in deep suffering, not only the big existential, you know, meta-theological question of if God's good and all-powerful, why all this stuff?

But it's way more personal than that for people. It's like, you know, why is my child suffering? Why was I abused? Where was God then? Why doesn't he stop all this? And we know, and if you scratch the internet too deep to find out God still heals today, miraculous things, but then what about the people that aren't healed? Because they're in the pain. And that question, to me, that's the hardest one of all. And went pretty deeply into that one.

What about the scientific side of it? Because for a lot of folks, there's almost like that curse of knowledge. It's like, I know so much and I rely so much on logic and these other sides of things that for a lot of people, it just doesn't feel, it just feels more like a fairy tale than like. Well, it does feel like a fairy tale if we've been told fairy tales.

And, you know, if you talk to most people, well, you know, I don't believe in faith. I believe in science. And you go very deeply into that. And if you know enough to ask the questions, a lot of people just repeat that line to you.

But when I went deeply into it, the first thing that really dawned on me and clearly emerged was this isn't an IQ question. It's not like dumb people believe in this and smart people don't. When I get into the science and the various fields, which I talked about, you know, astrophysics and cell biology and all of this deep, deep stuff, so many of the leading scientists themselves say,

The science led them to faith. I mean, you can start with complicated design, but what actually gets into it, when you begin to see, science can only look at what exists and examine what exists. Then you have to jump into faith, both on the atheistic side and the believing side. The atheists have to say, well, since there's no God, it must have just happened once.

We must have gotten something from nothing. We must have gotten life from non-life. And that's an act of faith too. And so we're not really talking about science versus faith. We're talking about faith versus faith when you get past the science. Because you've got to interpret what is somehow. It takes a lot more faith.

For me and a lot of other people, especially really, really like Francis Collins, the guy that unmapped all the human genome and all of that, that's what brought him to faith. So it's not like idiots only believe. There are a lot of smart people that the science drove them to faith. Sir Isaac Newton. Yep. Even Darwin, one of my favorite things I put in the book,

Darwin himself said, the human eye causes me to shudder. It takes a lot of faith to think a booger shudders.

A piece of goo turned into that thing that does all that it does. This human eye, yeah. That's evolution, the essence of it. The book is Why I Believe by Dr. Henry Cloud, New York Times bestselling author of Boundaries and many others many times over. He's been informing you about a lot of things in your life over the years, and now he's talking about why he believes.

Why I believe. Dr. Henry Cloud. Be sure and check it out, boys and girls. I read it in manuscript form. I've endorsed it. I'm probably on here. Yeah, there I am right there on the back. Who knew? There it is. And it's what happens when you're friends. It's a good book. Worth the read. Good to see you, my friend. It's good to see y'all. Thanks. Dr. Henry Cloud. This is The Ramsey Show. You guys know this real estate out there is weird right now. It's weird. If you're going to buy a house in this current environment, and you should if you're ready,

Because they're not going anywhere but up. You need a really good real estate agent in your corner. If you're going to sell a house in this current environment, you need a really good real estate agent in your corner. And I'm not talking about your Uncle Henry who got his license three weeks ago and never sold a house in his life. And he's going to sell your $300,000 house. That's dumb. Just tell Uncle Henry you love him. But no, thanks. Get somebody that's an actual pro that does 50, 100, 200 transactions a year and knows what the flip they're doing.

That's who Ramsey trusted agents are. We don't have anybody in the Ramsey trusted real estate agent program. That's not a high producer, high octane, high protein, get her done proven track record. That's and by the way, they know the Ramsey stuff inside and out. And so they're not going to give you advice. It's contrary to what you're hearing here on the air either.

We call them ELPs, endorsed local providers. They live there in your neighborhood, but they're the best of the best in your area, and they have become Ramsey-trusted agents. Be sure and check them out. If you want to find out who is Ramsey-trusted in your area, you can do that for free at ramsaysolutions.com slash agent. Then you talk to them, and you interview them, and see if you find the same thing that we found when we talked to them, and we interviewed them, and we coached them, because we do all of those things.

Marie is with us. Marie's in Philadelphia. Hi, Marie. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hi. Thanks for taking my call. Sure. What's up? So I'm currently living in hotels. I can't seem to find an apartment. I've been looking for a roommate. What should I do? You can't seem to find an apartment. Why? My credit score is abysmal. Okay. Are you working? Yes. What do you make? What do you make?

Um, I take in 87 a year before taxes. $87,000 a year. Yep. Good for you. What do you do? I'm an occupational therapist. How'd you end up homeless? Um, well, I moved from state to state for, for love and a relationship and that did not work out. And, um, my only real option at the time was to find a,

a hotel for temporary housing and um i really didn't have anything saved up i wasn't prepared i yeah do you have any money now um no because i'm basically spending 2200 a month just to keep a roof over my head but you make 87 000. yeah you must have a lot of debt payments where else is your money going

Yeah, so I have a car lease and I have my student loan debt. How much are the student loans? Tell me the amounts if you don't mind. Yeah, I think they're probably at $275,000 right now in student loan debt. $275,000? Yes. Okay, what else? And then, you know, car insurance, my phone, etc.

And food, that's really what I've got money for. Tell me about the car lease. It ends next month. Okay, good. About $340 a month. I'm not even sure if I'm going to be able to get a car by the time that's over. So Dave asked you the question and it was kind of a vague answer. I want to know financially what put you here because you've got the $275 in student loans. How much is that for you per month with your income? It's about...

$1,000 a month. Okay. Are you current? No. Have you been paying it? No. Are they federal? Part of them are federal and part of them are private. Okay. Marie, I'm struggling, okay? You've not paid that. You paid a $300 payment. You make $87,000 and you paid a hotel bill. That's all you've done. Where is all your money going, kiddo? Um...

It is going to eating out. I only have a microwave here, so I can't really cook traditional meals. So I'm eating out and just trying to survive with food and drink and

Um, it goes to my phone bill. 84,000 is $7,000 a month minus taxes. You should be getting $5,000 a month coming home. I take home 2,200 every two weeks because I put in about like $300 every paycheck into my 401k. Well, I reckon you need to stop that.

Okay, let's stop your 401k, and that gets you to $4,800 then take-home pay, which is pretty close to what I'm talking about. And then you can start to, even with eating out and even with a hotel bill, you can still stack some cash. So I'm going to...

I can't tell what's going on in the numbers, but numbers generally talk to me because I've done this a long time. So I think what I'm hearing is a highly educated, very intelligent lady whose heart got broken. Let me take that further, got crushed, and you've been in a spiral emotionally since, and everything's out of control. Yeah. Is that right?

Yes. Okay. All right. Because the numbers aren't telling me anything else. Cause you're too smart. You're too intellectually bright to have, to be in this situation. If you were, if you were functioning in an, at a normal level. And right now you bet you're functioning with a broken heart.

And it's clouding everything. You're spending all of your calories and your emotional energy going over and over and over and over this and feeling ashamed for having chased somebody that dumped you and feeling bad that the guy wasn't worth your trouble and all the different things or whatever it is we do when we're in your situation and normal humans do it. So you're not a bad person. You're not a weak person. You're just been stomped on and you're hurting and it causes your math to get screwed up. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Okay. Because here's the, here's what I hear. You've got plenty of money to go rent an apartment. Lots of places will rent somebody with bad credit and apartment. You just put up a good deposit and you get out of 2,200 a month and you get straightened out. Where did you move from to move to Philadelphia? I moved from Voorhees. Where's that? In New Jersey. Okay. Okay. So just down, just, just a few hours away. Do you have family back there?

Um, my mom is, um, further South in Jersey down by the shore. And my dad is in South Carolina. How's your relationship with either one of them? Awful. We don't talk. We're not speaking to her. All right. Here's what I want you to do. Jade and I are going to help you. All right. We've got Ramsey preferred coaches that we have trained to coach people on finances. Okay. I'm going, I'm going to pay for you to have one for free as my gift. Okay.

Thank you. Because you're hurting and you need somebody to put their arms around you. And we're the people that are going to do it. Okay. And then I'm also going to have that person recommend to you to get plugged into a good local church.

And between the coaching on pulling the money together to deal with an apartment and to deal with getting an inexpensive paid-for car with this lease running out, we're going to get you back to sustainability. Okay? But you need some human beings in your life because you're wandering out there in the middle of a huge crowd called Philadelphia completely alone. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's not going to lead you to where you want to go. You need community. You need human beings with their arms around you helping you, loving you, and showing you the way. And even maybe helping you a little bit with the money stuff. But we're not going to give you money. You've got plenty of money. Your money is just out of control because your heart's messed up.

Okay. So we'll walk with you, kiddo. And you need to get out of this hotel and you need to get out of this lease and you need to throw your shoulders back and get your dignity back because you're worth way more than you sound like you think you're worth. So you hold on and we'll pick up. We're going to get you hooked up with one of our coaches and they'll plug you into a good church. And between the two, we're going to get you in community and get yourself squared around. Hang on, kiddo. This is the Ramsey show.

Our scripture of the day, Isaiah 58, 11. The Lord will guide you always. He will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land and will strengthen your frame. You will be like a well-watered garden, like a spring whose waters never fail. That's for our last caller. Yeah. Elizabeth Elliott said, of one thing I am perfectly sure, God's story never ends with ashes. Ooh. You know what? Mini-rant. Yeah.

Because that and the last caller and the caller before with the car that was breaking down. I think the number one factor that people sleep on is community. I think it's the number one thing when it comes to your life and your money that

Having a church family, a community around you. And here's the thing. I get it. Like anybody listening, they're like, I don't follow Jesus. I'm not into that. I really don't care. Being in a place where people will love you and care for you. It is amazing.

such an answer that it's a place where you can go when you need somebody to look after the kids. It's a place where you can go if you need somebody to help you go down the car dealership and buy the right car. Somebody who has a car that they're selling. It's some place where you can go where your heart broken and people will put their arms around you and pray with you. It's a place where you can go when the election is going crazy and you don't, you are fearful of the future. There's so many things that come up in normal everyday life that, I mean, we say it all the time. You don't want to go through life alone. And

It is the number I'm telling you. It's the number one thing that will help you keep it together in life. That's it. That's all I have to say. No, psychologists say that regulates. Yeah. You regulate yourself off of others and you only go crazy in your own head. You don't do that because, you know, even if your family's nuts, I mean, in her case, she's estranged from her mother and father, but, and they're separated, obviously divorced probably or whatever. I don't know what her story was, but, um,

You know, that's, you know, I grew up on a street in suburban Nashville, and it was like a something out of a book.

You know, like we didn't knock on the neighbor's door. We just walked in. Yeah. We all the kids played hide and seek outside until 10 o'clock at night. We jumped over plywood in the middle of the street on our bicycles. And yes, we had no helmets. It was a long time ago. I'm a dinosaur. And but I got to tell you, if a neighbor built a deck on the back of their house,

all of the kids and the men from the neighborhood are up there swinging a hammer. Yeah. 12 years old. I'm driving nails in the neighbor's deck. I can show you the nails I put in, you know, like I knew what I was doing, but you know, that was what we were taught that you're there for your neighbor. You're there for each other. You're in community. If, um,

I mean, my grandmother died, I remember, and my parents jumped in the car and took off and dropped us on the front porch of one of the neighbor's houses. Yeah. And took off, you know, to go to take, to go, you know, eight hours away and so on. And so, you know, that's the kind of, you've got to have...

It's a support system. You're not sustainable as standalone. And Dr. Deloney talks about this a lot, that we are the loneliest culture at this moment in time. And I don't know exactly if I was going to, I don't know if we need to blame that on something or not.

But if you were going to blame it on something, I think I'd blame it on the smartphone. I 100% would blame it on that. And the idea that people got confused at some point that Facebook friends are real friends. Yeah. They're not. They're not there at 2 o'clock in the morning to help you change a tire. I'm just telling you. You've got to drop one kid off because you're going to have the other kid and you're getting ready to have the second baby. Yeah.

No Facebook friend. That's it. No, they're not real. They're virtual, which means not real by definition. And so this idea that, and we've gotten disconnected, you know, we don't need to go next door for a cup of sugar. Yeah. How old is that? Is that 1950s or 1970s? I don't know. But I was raised in the 60s and 70s as a kid. So we literally...

not metaphorically, literally walk next door for a cup of sugar. Mama would say, go over to Irene's and she'd call with a phone that was connected to the wall. And Irene would meet little skinhead Dave with his shaved head at the front door. No, I wasn't a skinhead. I had a skinhead. I got you, Dave. Just be clear for you idiots out there on the internet. But, um, you know, you're right. That's mad. That stuff. You don't,

If you want to talk about privilege, regardless of race, that's a privilege. It is. And you have to work.

And quadruple is hard to create it because like you said, that digitization that's taken place, you have to say to yourself, you know what? I'm, I'm making a batch of cookies. I'm going to make a second one and bring it to the neighbors too. I'm going to share this with them. You have to make, create these opportunities to share your life. It's hard. It's because it's weird now. It's weird now. It's it. Yeah, that's right. That's true. But you can't do life alone. Man is not meant to be alone. And, and,

I hear that sometimes in these calls. I'm like, this person doesn't have anybody to reach out to. And, you know, the moral of my story here was there's always someplace you can get plugged in. And maybe it's not your neighbors, but there's always a good church community somewhere that you can get plugged into. But you got to get plugged in. So important.

Yeah, well, I once met a jerk who went to church. Well, good. That's where he needed to be. 100%. He needed to be in church. That's where jerks ought to be. It's their only shot at not being a jerk. It's your only shot. Zig Ziglar used to say, he says, I can't go to church. There's hypocrites there. Hey, wait a minute. I'm confused. Where did you want them to be? Right. Right.

You know, where'd you want those hypocrites to hang out? What's their only shot, man? I know, right? Oh my gosh. So you're exactly right. There is a connectivity thing here and the quality of your character is shifted. Your fears are, it's weird that your fears in your own head

can become this monstrous boogeyman. But when you actually sit down with a friend or someone who cares, really cares, and you spit them out of your mouth, by the time they come out of your head and land on the table in front of you, they're little tiny loaf ears. They're kind of cute.

But in your head, they were a big freaking deal. Oh, yeah. And that's what community does. It does. Sometimes this show does that. Sometimes we're your community. Oh, 100%. We're okay with being part of it, but we're not real either. So we're virtual. Well, I mean, we're people on the other end of a podcast, for God's sakes. That's true. We are YouTubers. That's the lowest. I mean, right there. That's the bottom of the barrel. So, I mean, you don't want YouTubers as your community. I'm just saying. Yeah.

So, and we're big time YouTubers, man. I'm telling you. I mean, we're on TikTok. If you didn't, if that didn't ruin it, just tell them the truth. We're on TikTok. Oh God, that right there ruins it. I had a video that did 7.7 million on TikTok and I didn't know how to feel about it. Like, is this a good thing or a bad thing? It's questionable. It's questionable. It's questionable. But yeah, community. Real people. Real, real community. Real human beings physically in your presence that you sit down,

And they turn off the television. They lay the phone down face down. Yeah. With the buzzer off and the ringer turned. Yeah. And all this. And they just sit and they're humans and they're be with you. Deloney is spending a lot of time talking about this. As a matter of fact, it's one of the six things you do for building a non-anxious life.

yes is to build community and you have to be intentional about it in a world that has forgotten how to do it 100 got to work i'll go with your mini rant it's not even a mini rant it's a full segment full segment right it is we got there yeah don't sleep i like it it's a good good plan but we did there's a pattern in some of the calls that we've taken throughout the show today certainly in the last hour or so um

And it does tie back to relationship issues. It ties back to community. It ties back to support systems and sustainability. And all of those things are tied into community.

Left alone, we're just all weird. We're all weird. That's so true. We're all weird. And like you said, you can go crazy in your own head. And then take up residence there. And you get desperate, you know, when you feel like you don't have anywhere to look. It's like, oh, these are my only choices. I'm like, no, you need somebody with some sense.

to tell you otherwise well because one of the things when you're in pain you lose perspective and you think that it you know it's going to end in ashes and what elizabeth elliott said one thing i'm perfectly sure god's story never ends in ashes that puts us our the ramsey show in the books we'll be back with you before you know what in the meantime remember there's ultimately only one way to financial peace and that's to walk daily with the prince of peace christ jesus

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