Will We Ever Get Federal Paid Family Leave? with Senator Kirsten Gillibrand
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In 2024, an era where we have things like machine learning algorithms that can generate a picture of you and Taylor Swift holding hands and air purifying headphones, 73% of Americans do not have access to paid family leave, which means that for a majority of Americans, if you have a baby or if you need to take care of a sick family member, you have to go on short-term disability or go on unpaid leave. This has been on my mind a lot lately because...

Surprise! I am seven months pregnant. My husband and I are expecting a baby girl in December. And let me tell you, as someone who's their own boss, it is really challenging to figure out what my rights are and how to budget for leave. And also, how to reconcile the fact that being a new parent is somehow classified as a disability? What?

It would be much easier in, say, Sweden, where new parents get 80 percent of their full salary for 480 days. And that's for both parents if there are two. To talk about why we don't have this in the U.S. and whether or not we ever will, I'm talking today to Senator Kirsten Gillibrand of New York.

Senator Gillibrand is both an expert and a leader on this issue. And today we talk about the state of parental leave. And for the first time, I talk on the show as an expecting parent myself, soon to be a working parent, as I start to plan for my life in that new role. For anyone in similar shoes, I hope you find this episode as helpful as I did. Let's get started.

Senator Gillibrand, welcome to Money Rehab. Thank you. We are recording this just about a week after the big debate. We're deep into election season right now. So I guess I'd be remiss to ask, how are you doing? This is your Super Bowl. It's an exciting time right now. I have to say, I think everyone was very energized by the convention. I thought the messaging of this is the campaign about freedom was really important. And to showcase so many really extraordinary speakers, I thought

Kamala's speech herself did an amazing job. I loved the energy at the debate. I liked the juxtaposition of her as a fighter and really standing up to Trump, standing up to some of his bad ideas and really laying out the differences between her vision and his. I thought it was strong. And so I've been on the campaign trail for the past several months all across New York and people are really excited about it. There's a lot more volunteers. There's a lot more people who want to make phone calls and knock on doors.

And we're seeing a real commitment by voters to get involved. And the economy is obviously number one issue. So we dig into that a lot on this show. And as I was digging into your background for this interview, I found an interesting factoid that you were the number one Girl Scout cookie seller growing up. So clearly, yes, I was nag for money early on in partnership. That's amazing.

Has there ever been a time in your life when you've needed money rehab? I would just say I was never super knowledgeable about how to save money, how to plan for retirement. Those are things I really didn't focus on as a young worker, and I certainly should have. The smart things I did, however, is I did set up a 401k. I maxed out to my 401k every paycheck.

So that was one thing I did very, very studiously. So somebody gave me good advice at that young age. The other thing I did well was...

I always paid off my credit cards. I never kept a balance. I never paid interest. And I think that was a good life lesson to learn early because the interest rates of credit card charges are so high and you wind up paying double, triple or quadruple for something that was not a lot of money. Those are two things I did despite not knowing too much, but I certainly could have used good financial planning when I was younger. For example, if I'd started at 529, it

When I was younger, it could have been useful. I did not do that. So I didn't have it ready when my first son went to college. I had to just pay cash. So those are the kinds of mistakes you make if you don't have a good financial advisor when you are younger and you have less expenses. So you have more ability to save and plan.

It's a universal issue. I want financial literacy in schools. I think it absolutely should be taught. And what to financially expect when you're expecting is a whole other area because I am actually expecting. And so this is top of mind for me. I'm six and a half months pregnant. And I would love to dig into more of the intersection of what we do here on the show between money and everything, including politics and work. Family leave has been top of mind

For me, I'm a smart lady. I have spent many hours trying to figure out what rights I have, trying to untangle California law versus federal law. I work for myself. It was so confusing. Why? Why is it so confusing, Senator? There is money out there to be had, but it's really hard to find. The truth is, is that most of our legislators are men.

Most of our governors are men. Most of our elected leaders are men. And they often are not at the forefront of the care economy. They don't understand why paid leave is so essential for families, for working parents.

They don't prioritize it. They don't prioritize affordable daycare, universal pre-K. They don't prioritize care overall and they don't pay for it. So they'd rather women use their time and efforts and talents on uncompensated care. They want to make sure that you stay home with the baby if needed and not have a salary or a paycheck or a job, or you stay home with a dying parent or the ill family member or the sick kid.

So that's the truth of the U.S. economy and the U.S. society. And if we actually valued care and paid for it and understood it as critical infrastructure for our economy to thrive, we would have already had a national paid leave plan by now. We'd have universal pre-K. We'd have affordable daycare.

And that's our challenge. And so one of the things I work on is two things. One, legislation to do exactly those things with Republicans on a bipartisan basis. And two, elect more women. Because if there were more of us who can see this challenge and see these solutions, then

we would have a stronger economy overall. More women would earn more money. They would be able to earn at their highest capability level. They wouldn't be dragged down every time there's an unmet family need. And if we had a vibrant paid leave program nationally,

women would never miss a beat. They wouldn't have to quit to be able to meet that need. They wouldn't have to start over at the bottom rung every time. We call that the sticky floor because if you have to quit every time that you have a family emergency, you never gain seniority and you never gain your full earning potential. You're constantly catching up. That's why I think it's important to elect more women and it's important to fix the system so that more women can thrive in the economy.

Has your own experience emboldened you to take some of this action with legislation and also advocating for more? 100%. 100%. Tell me more. And you were pregnant with your second son and you spent 12 hours on the floor going into labor, basically? Were you having contractions on the floor? What was going on? Oh my God. Okay. So first child, I was a partner in a law firm. And so I helped the law firm write

a paid leave policy. They didn't have one. And I was the first female partner who was pregnant. So I needed to write one fast and get it done. And I had to make sure that it made sure that women didn't earn less just because they were pregnant or had to take leave. And so I had to really make it work for the pay structure of this firm. When I got to Congress, I was pregnant my first term as a House member.

So I'm walking around the house floors with my belly out to here and men saying ridiculous things like, can I touch your belly? Or you're even pretty when you're fat. Ridiculous. Who said that? What? Well, a very nice Southern lady gentleman who didn't think it was an insult. So it's very funny. I remember working out at the gym and another older man say, good thing you're working out. You wouldn't want to get porky. See?

job all while pregnant. Yes. Ridiculosity, but I didn't really care. So I just ignored them. But when I was serving, I was due any day now and I'm sitting in an armed services committee hearing or marking up the bill and I'm feeling so uncomfortable and more and more uncomfortable. And I'm like,

Oh, my God, today is never going to end. And it was a markup that was expected to go from nine until midnight, 1 a.m., 2 a.m. So I told the chairman in advance, I'm leaving at 9 p.m. I could only do 12 hours of this. And so sure enough, I left at nine and I went home and I went to bed and my water broke that night. So, yes, I was in labor the whole day.

And I was having contractions and I survived it. But there's no such thing as paid leave in Congress. You run your own office. You're elected by your constituents. So if you need time off, you just take time off. So if you're sick, you just don't come into work. But I felt a lot of pressure that if I wasn't voting, then who was speaking for my constituents? And so I started voting within a few weeks of giving birth. Like it wasn't a long time, maybe five weeks, maybe four weeks. I'm not sure.

But I rushed back because I really felt like,

I needed to do my job. And I remember getting constituent letters that were published in the paper that said, you should cut her pay because she's clearly not doing her job if she's having a baby. Just total unsupportive, unkind words. But if we had had a national paid leave program that everyone expected for their jobs, they would say, well, she's going to be out for a few months. But this is something that everyone has access to as part of working and as part of the infrastructure that supports our economy and work.

But it wasn't even passed in New York at that time. That's why constituents, this particular author, angry older man, it didn't matter because he wasn't socialized to know that you want women in the workplace earning at their highest potential, paying taxes, helping the economy grow, and then just taking the time they need to meet these family care emergencies. And we want moms to be home for that.

first three months or four months or six months or whatever the particular policy of a company or a city or state is, because we know bonding with your child is really important. If you choose to nurse, being able to nurse is really important. All of those things are crucial for the health and well-being and brain development for our next generation of leaders. We want their brains to be developed well. So this should be a shared investment by the entire country because we want the smartest...

fabulous young students and eventual leaders. And that all happens when you have that crucial time off with your parent right after birth and in the early years. And so these are things that I need to educate people about and to normalize and to try to get red states to pass as well. So I'm working on a bipartisan basis right now with a senator named Bill Cassidy from

Louisiana. And we are working on a bipartisan bill to offer up to three months of leave for care for certain workers across the United States, for states and employers and individuals that want to opt into it. So it's not a mandatory policy because the Republicans won't support that, but it is one that could be available to all states and all low-income workers. And that would be a place to start that states could build on. But for your question of California, you are covered up to 12 weeks.

And you probably will get about 50% of your pay up to a certain amount of money, up to $5,000 a month. I'm not sure with California policy, it might be 4,000 a month, but you're eligible for a certain amount paid by their insurance fund to cover your expenses during the three months you take off or leave. Most workers are entitled to up to three months unpaid, no matter what. But

That doesn't apply to small businesses. And so there's still workers in this country who can't do unpaid leave. Now, you are a sole proprietor. You have your own business. So I'd have to check what the California rules are for S-Corps. But hopefully you're covered because you should be. And if you're not, it just shows a flaw in the policy. And we need smart people to write better laws so that you are covered. Hold on to your wallets. Money Rehab will be right back. And now for some more Money Rehab.

Amen. I'm trying to figure out how much time to take. I feel guilty about it, honestly, wanting to take time off. I feel like if this was less taboo or a national standard, maybe I would feel differently. I think you deserve for the armed services a medal. Can they give you some sort of national medal for being there for 12 hours? Wasn't it true that you got a standing ovation? When I came back to Congress to vote, I brought...

my infant Henry with me. And so whether it was four weeks, five weeks after giving birth, I walked on the floor with my baby on my shoulder. And I was only the sixth member of Congress to give birth while in office. So let that sink in. Only six times in the history of America did a woman with a baby walk onto the House floor.

That gave me the standing ovation. And so I asked for one minute to speak and I introduced Henry to the entire chamber and they all stood and applauded. Well, that's really sweet. And it was very sweet. It's standing ovation worthy. But what does that response even say about, you know, the way they've never seen it before? What to expect from working parents? I just thought it was pretty cool. I

I think for women, they tended to run for office later. So I ran for office when I had a three-year-old. So I ran when Theo was three. Most women wait till their children are in college before they run.

Or the newer pattern now is to run well before you're even married. And so women tend to get very focused on being a good mother and being a good parent when they have children. And so things like running for office sometimes would take a back burner. But I really had the ambition to do it my whole life. So I wasn't going to let having kids be something that

stopped me from running for office, but instead that motivated me to run for office. That as a mother, I have a perspective on the world that needs to be heard. And that as a mother, my life experience, my lived experience is going to inform some of these key policy debates. I thought that was a reason to run. So a different generation has a different perspective. And I think that's smart.

And can you talk to me about what you're trying to change specifically with the Family Act, which you introduced in 2013? What would it provide for and what's the latest with it? So the Family Act, in my opinion, is perfect paid leave. We are not negotiating perfect paid leave right now with Republicans. We're negotiating the common ground.

But perfect paid leave, in my opinion, would be an earned benefit that's just like Social Security, that no matter who you are, a certain amount of your paycheck would go into a fund to fund everyone's paid leave whenever they want it based on life events. So you'd have to have a

birth or adoption of a child. You'd have to have illness of a family member, death of a family member. Qualifying life events would be eligible, but I'd like everyone to buy in at something like $2 a week. It's not a great deal of money, but you'd pay that much and your employer would pay that much on average. And that's enough to fund paid leave across the whole nation when people need to take it.

The framing of that is something that is not bipartisan because Republicans right now don't want to have people have to pay in because they see that as a tax and they don't want employers to have to match it because they don't want employers to have to pay for it. So when I'm negotiating with Bill Cassidy, we're talking about covering all low wage workers, people who earn up to $50,000 and

for certain amounts of leave and that we'd pay for that, not through their additional money or an employer's additional money, but we'd pay for it from the federal government budget. So you'd just prioritize it as something you're investing in and then find a way to pay for it that is acceptable to Democrats and Republicans. So that's what we're doing instead. But I'd love it to be an earned benefit because I think if people actually bought in, they'd know it was theirs and they would

No, they've earned it and then they would take it. And because for paid leave, you need men and women to take it equally. You need all workers to think it's important to spend time with family when there's a family need or a family emergency. That will take the burden off women as the only acceptable caregiver in a family. You want everyone to be able to give care as needed.

It's an important distinction. And what do you say during these debates when Republicans are critical of this plan, where they say that as a business owner, I get it, but it's too expensive and I don't want to pay for it? Yeah. So small businesses really like paid leave if it's national or statewide, because they could never afford it themselves. If they had to pay for two employees to do one job for three months, that would probably crater most small businesses. But if there's a fund that pays for the person who's on

leave, they can use that salary of that person to pay the replacement worker for the short amount of time that they need it. So it's economic if there's a national or a statewide paid leave program. So they love it because they could never compete with the big box stores or the elite employers who offer paid leave. So they can't compete because they don't have that much money. But certain employers who are very wealthy, like law firms, accounting firms, leave for doctors at hospital networks.

They pay for everything because they know that these employees are so valuable that they can't replace them. That's not true from the perspective of employers who employ low wage workers. They don't look at their employees as invaluable, even though they are.

they look at them as replaceable. And that's a huge mistake because when small businesses have access to paid leave, they find that their employers that they have trained are far more effective at their job than having to find a replacement worker quickly because somebody has to quit.

And so they now realize it costs them so much more to have to replace a worker as opposed to just being able to get a part-time worker to fill in why somebody is meeting that family need. And that has been displayed and proven in California that's had paid leave for over a decade, in New York that's had paid leave now for five or six years.

So we have the data that shows employers believe paid leave either has a value added for their business or no negative impact. And 99% of employers know it improves retention and morale. So it's got a great track record. And we can now take those arguments to the chambers of commerce, to the employers to say businesses and states that have this love it.

Why aren't more states, though, involved? It's an ideology about who's in charge of looking after and helping families thrive. In blue states and purple states, they're more inclined to say when families are happy and thriving, the economy is growing. They believe that and they invest in that. I don't know why red states don't believe that because it's just true and it's proven out with the data.

Do you think that there would be a time when a male senator or congressman took paternity leave and led by example? I think so. Yes, I think that's never happened, I assume. No, I think they've taken some time off. So a number of male senators have gotten sick themselves and they've not been able to vote for a month, two or three months. So we've seen that quite recently where ill members had to take leave, paid leave and couldn't

come in to vote because they were sick. And that's bipartisan. We've had sick people who are both Democrats and Republicans. In terms of young parents, we have a couple newer senators who just had babies. I don't know if Tom Cotton took any time off when his wife had a baby. I don't know if John Ossoff took any time off when his wife has a baby, but I wouldn't be surprised if they took a few weeks off. So we should research the data and find out how we should encourage them.

Yeah, I encouraged a lot of being caregivers. Thank you. Because this is not like a red or blue state issue, being sick, having a baby. I can't think of a more national issue

universal issue. You've been really successful in working on these bipartisan initiatives, paid family leave, of course, being one of them. What have you learned about collaborating with partners? When you talked through the Family Act, you said, well, it's not perfect and it's not mandatory because we have to do a lot of compromises. What would you suggest to people trying to work across the aisle in any industry? So the most important thing is to listen and find out what they're for.

And I spent a lot of time listening with my Republican colleagues to listen to what are you willing to do? What do you think you could convince your conference to do? And they'll tell you. So if you listen, then you have to build something that they're willing to do. And that's how we've gotten where we are right now. So I'm hoping that we introduce this bill in the next month or two and maybe get a vote on it by the end of the year. It would be so meaningful to show the country that we care about the care economy. We care about workers and we care about their families.

What can people do if they want to support?

they can ask their members of Congress, do you support a paid leave policy? And really just push them to come up with some idea. Not everybody's going to agree on how to do it, but they should at least agree that it should be done and to then work together in a collaborative way to find the answer. I think people should push their Congress members. They should assess whether someone they vote for supports paid leave or not. It's fundamental to their wellbeing. They should know. And I think it's a really huge

human issue that makes all the difference. If you've ever experienced a sick or dying parent, a sick or dying family member experience the joy of a new child, you know how important those days, weeks and hours are to be with that loved one. And it's such a human experience that I think it is common ground.

Because you've been trying to do this since 2013. You're a tenacious lady. So I assume that- Sometimes it takes a whole decade to do the basic things. It's shocking. What advice would you give the next president about working across the aisle like you have? Yeah, I think for either one, they should be meeting with members of Congress regularly from both parties. And they should be talking about shared values and shared ideas about how to

serve the American people. We are all supposed to be public servants and we're supposed to put others ahead of ourselves.

And it's not supposed to be about us. It's supposed to be about the people. And so just listening and working together. I work with all Republicans, even the most conservative Republicans I have bipartisan bills with. I have a bill with Josh Hawley, with Ted Cruz, with Rand Paul, with Cynthia Lamas, with Jodi Ernst. I work with everyone. And if you don't work with everyone, you're not listening enough and you're not doing your job because there's always something you can agree on.

And do you just accept the fact that you can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good? It sounds like you've accepted that. Yes. And you write the perfect paid leave bill, but then you negotiate a compromised version of it. So you can always write your best ideas to try to get people to support it and understand it and like it.

but always be open to getting part of it done or the first step of it done. And that's what we're going to do. That's what Bill Cassidy and I are hoping to do, get the first step of it done. It's something that needs to happen no matter who is president. When I saw you in L.A., you were at an event encouraging Democrats to stand behind your dude, Joe. This was obviously in the beginning of the year before he stepped aside. When did you even figure out or find out that he was stepping aside? Yeah.

Oh, I found out when everyone else found out. And I think all of us have experienced aging in our families. We know what it's like when a loved one just turns that corner and can't say all the things they want to say, can't do all the things they want to do. And it's painful to watch and it's,

You want what's best for that person because you care deeply about them. All of us care deeply about President Biden. And we were very grateful when he decided to step down and endorse Kamala with full recognition that he did a great job as president. He was always listening. He was always bringing people together. He signed some of the most magnificent, far reaching bipartisan bills ever written by Congress.

including one that I helped write, which is a gun trafficking bill to get illegal guns off the streets and to prosecute gun traffickers. We already have confiscated 3,000 weapons because of that bill. We were prosecuting over 300 traffickers. So meaningful work was done by President Biden on infrastructure, on semiconductors and chip manufacturing, all things that help the economy grow.

And he did that through listening. And so he's a perfect example of what it takes to be bipartisan. I think he understood that his time came to continue to lead as president, but to let someone else take the mantle as the candidate.

Senator Gillibrand, we end our episodes by asking all of our guests for a tip that listeners can take straight to the bank. Can you share a lesson that you learned about money that has been helpful to you? Savings. Save, save, save. When you are young, you do not need that third pair of shoes or that fourth pair of sneakers or whatever. Just put some money in a savings account immediately. Figure out what percentage you can afford. Do the max. Always do

Max out your 401k, start your 529 for your kid's college as soon as you can, because college is unaffordable for everybody. And that's a whole other podcast. Yeah. And pay off your credit cards because that interest rate's ridiculous. Borrow money from your parents or someone you know before you literally pay that interest rate because it's 18%.

And so that's a bit ridiculous. But those are the lessons that I've learned over the 57 years of my life. I did not know all of them and I still don't have a 529. So I never got that done. But smarter people will do that than I was. And is there a lesson that you teach your boys about financial literacy?

So I got them savings accounts and checking accounts. When they were young, they have a debit card. They watch how much they spend. They assess it every month so that they understand every time they go to Starbucks, it costs them $8. Like it's not cheap. So it's important for them to know if they're spending their birthday money or spending their summer earned money.

how to keep money to save long-term. We don't do any stock investing in our family because I passed a law that said members of Congress have to disclose all their stocks. And so I've told them, if you're buying and selling stocks, you need to tell mommy right away so I can disclose it.

So my oldest is 20 and my youngest is 16. So that's a tell mommy, no matter what, no matter what, because I have to disclose it. I'm hoping to ban it. And that would stop the insider trading by members of Congress, which are very, very bad at this. Most don't disclose like they're supposed to. One in three are trading. One in seven are disclosing and they have a 17% higher return rate than the S&P 500. And that is not because they're smarter. Wow. Wow.

How are you hoping to stop that?

Me and Josh Hawley, we have a bill and we're going to ban it. That you, if you're a member of Congress or immediate family member or a member of the administration on a senior levels or their families that you can't buy and sell stocks, that will stop insider trading because there's a lot of it. Yes. And it should stop. And very little prosecution of it. We have disclosure, but the SEC does nothing. Why? They should. I don't know. I passed the law giving them the information. I don't know why they don't want to follow up, but they have not. I think we need to ban it.

That's another bill I'd like to vote on soon. Money Rehab is a production of Money News Network. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Money Rehab's executive producer is Morgan Lavoie. Our researcher is Emily Holmes.

Do you need some money rehab? And let's be honest, we all do. So email us your money questions, moneyrehab at moneynewsnetwork.com to potentially have your questions answered on the show or even have a one-on-one intervention with me. And follow us on Instagram at Money News and TikTok at Money News Network for exclusive video content. And lastly, thank you. No, seriously, thank you. Thank you for listening and for investing in yourself, which is the most important investment you can make.