"Negotiating Makes Me Want To Puke. What Do I Do? (Listener Intervention)
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Wall Street has been completely upended by an unlikely player, GameStop. And should I have a 401k? You don't do it? No, I never have. I think the whole world revolves around you and your money. Well, it doesn't. Charge for wasting our time.

I will take a check. Like an old school check. You recognize her from anchoring on CNN, CNBC, and Bloomberg. The only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. Nicole Lappin.

One of the biggest money moves you can make on your own money rehab journey is negotiating. If you open your eyes, you'll see that pretty much everything in life is negotiable. Your phone bill, your cable bill, your medical bill, the APR and your credit card, all negotiable. So seriously, if you are not negotiating everything, you are leaving money on the table. But how do you get the confidence to ask for that lower bill or even ask for what you deserve at work?

Today, I'm talking to Ella, a money rehabber who wrote in saying that she feels guilty and sick to her stomach when it comes to negotiating her own contracts with clients. So today we're going to work on our negotiating toolbox so that next time Ella has the tools and confidence to knock it out of the park. Ella, welcome to Money Rehab. Can you tell me a little bit about what's going on? Yeah. So I am...

I'm usually a freelance writer and I've been having, I guess you could say, confidence issues in regards to asking for my worth where negotiations for my rate, they cause me a lot of anxiety.

I recently joined this group where a lot of women who freelance, they've been sharing their rates and I found that I usually ask for quite a bit less. But I also like I'm a student. I'm not like experienced. I don't have 10 years of experience or anything like that.

So I feel like I should ask for less. And then when I go through negotiating a contract, I get a lot of anxiety and I just feel like I have to say yes to the lower amount. And like, if I ask for more, they're just going to say, no, we don't want you to move on. Well, your anxiety is so natural. I think a majority of people would have anxiety around negotiating for their own rate. Can you give me some concrete numbers? What are we talking about here?

Okay, so I recently interviewed for a position and I said that $30 an hour is my going rate. Looking at what these other women who are more experienced than me, they're charging anywhere from like double to more, like way more than double what I'm asking for, like up to $100 an hour. And so I asked for 30 because that's something similar that I was offered with another position. And

The person, she offered me $25 per hour. This is also Canadian dollars. I don't know if that makes a difference from your perspective. So she offered me $25 an hour and I suggested that we meet in the middle. And I said $27 an hour. And if once she sees like that month,

I do a really good job, then we can negotiate going to the poll $30. And how does that conversation go between you and the hiring manager once you actually get a response? It's varied. So some I've had, they come in with a set amount that they're

they've budgeted out that they're willing to pay. Others have the, what is it that you're looking for for this role or for this job kind of thing. I think most commonly they ask me what

I expect to receive as a salary. And do they do that on the phone or do they do that on email? Usually it's been on the phone. I've had one do it in person though. On the spot? Yeah. I'm assuming that created even more anxiety. So much more anxiety. Like so, so much more. I've had it through email as well, but usually I found that it's on the spot. And what did you say? Well, the first time I just kind of fumbled through it. And I remembered that someone was recently offering, um,

Like my very first time, I said like $20 to $25. So I way, way undercut myself. It was before I even knew what other women were charging in the industry. And then I found out that all these other women are asking for so much more than I've been asking. And then after that, I started asking hiring managers what their budget is for the type of position that they're looking to fill. And what have they been saying? Yeah.

One, I got a salary range of $25 to $30. And that's kind of, I think, why I stuck with that $30 range because I figured go on the high end of what they were looking, willing to pay, but on the low end of what others in my industry with more experience are charging. Got it. Okay. So it's interesting because there are two different negotiation tactics, right?

when you are the one throwing the number out first. A lot of times, business coaches or entrepreneurial experts would say, don't throw out the first number. I don't actually agree with that. And I'll tell you why. If you don't throw out a high number to begin with, then you're probably never going to get there.

And so a negotiation is a back and forth. And oftentimes you will somehow get in the middle. But if you throw a high number out, you'll more likely get closer to that number than you would have if you waited for what their range was and then try to do this meet in the middle business. How do you feel about that? It feels scary asking for a high number, but I 100% get why I should.

I think it's just overcoming that imposter syndrome of where I shouldn't be asking for so much money. Yeah, and I think...

All of us struggle with imposter syndrome in one way or another. I still struggle with imposter syndrome on occasion. For instance, I just signed with this speakers bureau that has all of the former presidents. And I'm just like, what am I doing here? And so just when you feel like you've gotten rid of some imposter syndrome, I feel like it's a game of whack-a-mole and some other imposter syndrome scenario comes up. So it

you never really get to the other side of it. You just manage it as you go. And confronting the idea that you have anxiety is a really good place to start because you know that that's a problem. And oftentimes I say the first step to any recovery is admitting you have a problem. And the only problems you can't fix are the ones you don't admit you have. So this is amazing. So let's just take a moment and maybe we could do this even in post and give a round of applause to Ella. Thank you.

Hold on to your wallets, boys and girls. Money Rehab will be right back. Between summer vacations and going to the beach and having the hot girl or guy summer of your dreams, this is Money Rehab.

season can be a little hard on our wallets. A Chime checking account helps you reach your financial goals while still enjoying the summer. You can take back your finances with features like fee-free overdraft up to $200 with SpotMe or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at Chime.com slash MNN. And you know I hate overdrafted fees. One time I overdrafted buying a latte, which was so embarrassing at the time, but hey, it happens

it happens to the best of us. And I got charged 35 bucks for a $7 latte. But Chime allows you to overdraft up to $200 with no fees, and you can get temporarily increased overdraft limits with boosts from friends. Live it up this summer and make progress toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in minutes at Chime.com slash MNN. That's Chime.com slash MNN. Chime.

Feels like progress.

While you're binging the pod, how about a little bonus tip? As a starting place for your investment allocation that you can, of course, tailor depending on your goals, pros recommend making your bond allocation your age. How about a second bonus tip? When you want to invest in bonds, use Public, the modern brokerage for investors looking for a simple yet sophisticated investing experience.

Public is truly the only place I buy bonds, legit, because every other app or site I've tried to use is so complicated, but on Public, I can buy a bond on my iPhone in less than five minutes. This is a major upgrade because most investing platforms that offer bonds design their user experience before the iPhone was even invented. I'll let that one sink in. And you can use Public for more than your bond investments.

Public is the brokerage I use for all my investing needs, whether I'm looking for stocks, ETFs, a high-yield cash account, options, and other assets, even music royalties. To build the multi-asset portfolio of your dreams, go to public.com slash money rehab. One more time, because trust, you will thank me, public.com slash money rehab. This is a paid endorsement for public investing. Full disclosures and conditions can be found in the podcast description.

Now for some more money rehab. I am really proud of you for admitting this problem. And it seems like you're very committed to...

fixing it or improving your negotiating tactics. Absolutely. I really am. So this is a great place to start. I would love to try a little role playing with you. Okay. How do you feel about that? Because I think that when it comes to negotiating, we have a lot of content out there, especially...

you know, all of this like female empowerment content, go negotiate. And I am here for that for sure. But I think what's missing in that conversation is how exactly do you do that? What is the blocking and tackling? What the fuck do I actually say? Because I think everyone can get on board with the idea that you should earn money. You should ask for more money. And we're like, yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

And then what? So I actually think it's really important to practice, even if you're not talking to me or a friend, talk to the mirror, talk to your dog. Talking it through just gives you more reps and gives you more practice around this. And

That's how you cure the anxiety is actually going through it and realizing that it's not as hard as you imagine it to be. All right. So let's say I posted a copywriter social media marketing manager ad on Indeed and you responded to it. And I said, great, let's set up a phone call and discuss this.

whether or not this is a good fit. Before we go into this call, I'll give you a couple more pro tips aside from just the dollar amount.

Always have the dollar amount. Also have a backup plan. Maybe even where it makes sense, have a perks option that's not just a monetary thing you're asking for. And also do not forget that the hiring manager or whoever's hiring you, if it's a small business, maybe it's the CEO who's interviewing you, has your resume.

has your cover letter. They know what's on there. I think the biggest thing that employers want to see, and I can tell you this from hiring many people in my life, is what added value you can give to them. So talking about you, you, you, you will usually get you a no, no, no, no, no quickly. But talking about specifically...

Where you can help them make more money is the most attractive thing and the biggest impetus for that employer giving you more money because they think they're going to get more money as a result. It's not a charity. It's a business. So with those pro tips in mind, ring, ring, ring. Hello. Is this Ella? This is she. Great. This is Nicole. I am so excited to chat with you a little bit more about this position. How did you hear about it?

I actually saw your listing on Indeed and thought that it was a great fit. Why do you think it's a great fit for you? Well, I'm very familiar with your industry. It's one that I am very passionate about. And I believe that I can help your company grow exponentially because of my several years of experience. And I know how to make a business like yours grow. I know how to connect you to your clients.

ideal customer and get them to fall in love with your product and not only buy it on a consistent basis, but also have them be representatives and cheerleaders of your brand to encourage others to fall in love with your brand as well. I love cheerleaders and I love people falling in love with their brand. Absolutely. I am on board for that. How specifically would you do that? Have you seen...

Our website, have you looked at our social media? Where do you think there's a void and how do you think you could fix that? So looking at your social media, I think that there are opportunities to connect with your client a little bit more, especially if we use some customer generated content just to fill your feed and help others feel connected to your brand.

And also including more testimonials or more images on your website where there are actual customers and clients using your product. That way it'll feel a little more natural and organic for other people who are looking to see if this is the right brand to connect with for them. It's a great observation. I really couldn't agree with you more. I've been looking to find somebody to help me execute that.

It sounds like you have availability right now. Yes, I do. Yeah, I am available. And how many hours would you be available? Right now I'm available about 20 to 30 hours a week. So close to full time. And what is your hourly rate? $45 an hour.

Okay. Yeah, I'll have to go back and talk to the team about that. That's a little bit higher than we expected. We were, you know, hoping more in the 35 to 40 range. But I would love to send you a test and have you complete that test.

to make sure that this is the right fit. And then we can, you know, continue the conversation based upon that and what we can do financially. How does that sound? That sounds good. I would love to be able to prove myself to you and show my worth to you as well. Great. So I will be in touch on email and we'll take it from there.

Okay, sounds great. I look forward to connecting with you. Thanks a lot. And scene. That was great. That was so nerve wracking. Why? Why was it nerve wracking? I don't know. Honestly, it was just like, I feel myself getting red this whole time and my face is burning up. And even when you asked how much my going great is, I knew you were going to ask, but I was like, uh, uh. So it was... Well, I'll tell you this.

You couldn't tell, by the way. I didn't hear that nervousness in your voice. I was super proud of you. It didn't seem like you skipped a beat. When tough questions come up, it can often feel like the silence is forever, but it's really not. And sometimes silence in a negotiation is one of your best tactics. Nobody likes silence. And so sometimes I'm just silent to see what happens. So

How did that feel otherwise? I mean, it felt good. When you did say that your budget was $35,000 to $40,000, my first thought was, do I say yes, I'll do it for less? But then you also said the whole, we'll give you a practice run thing. So that also felt good because if someone is willing to do that, then it does give them an opportunity to

prove my worth. And also, I figured maybe during the email, we could do more negotiations at that point. Like if it is a full time job, maybe have like different benefits packages or things like that, where it can kind of work out in the same way for me. Absolutely. I'm really glad that you didn't answer on the spot. I think, you know,

Obviously, not everyone is going to hire in the same way I do. I like to have shocking, right, data and evidence and testing to actually help me make informed decisions, especially around hiring. So you can use those as tools in your shed, arrows in your quiver, you know, whatever, whatever analogy you want to give it.

as an option to buy some more time and proactively offer to prove yourself, even if they don't. So that could be a good tactic to show what you can do. That obviously means that the test is probably going to be free and you'll be putting a little bit of free work into it. And there's a risk to that. They could take it. They could not hire you. But I've seen that that pick

pays a lot of dividends in the long run. And giving a sample in any consumer business is ultimately going to pay off many times for that customer if, of course, that sample is good. Now, if you're good, I...

would preface all of this by saying, be honest with yourself. Are you really good at your job? And the first step to any of this is self-awareness. If you are not great at your job, like ask yourself, if you were running the company, would I give you that much money? And if not, then maybe you do price yourself more appropriately and maybe you are starting out and that's okay. And not everyone deserves to get

a raise or deserves to get more money. Frankly, nobody deserves anything in business. Again, this is not a charity. This is business. And so if you can prove your worth, you're more likely to get it. But I say really focus on proving what that worth is for any hirer or any boss that you already have.

For today's tip, you can take straight to the bank. I know it feels ridiculous, but practice having these conversations with an accountability buddy. Or if even that makes you feel stressed out, practice these conversations in the mirror. If the first time you're saying these things out loud is to an employer, it might feel awkward and uncertain coming out of your mouth.

It's like a school play. Get out all the mistakes and awkwardness in rehearsal so that opening night you can steal the show.

Money Rehab is a production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Our producers are Morgan Lavoie and Mike Coscarelli. Executive producers are Nikki Etor and Will Pearson. Our mascots are Penny and Mimsy. Huge thanks to OG Money Rehab team Michelle Lanz for her development work, Catherine Law for her production and writing magic, and Brandon Dickert for his editing, engineering, and sound design. And as always, thanks to you.

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