Tom Nichols: This Is What They Want
48:39 Share

Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We're bringing in friends and fam this week. That's the only way to deal with it. So I've got Tom Nichols, professor emeritus at the Naval War College, staff writer at The Atlantic, and author of The Atlantic Daily Newsletter. Tom, what should we do? What do you want to say? What happened? I mean, you know, what we should do is be on a beach somewhere right now and, you know, just with a couple of Mai Tais, but...

You know, what do we do? You get up in the morning and you square your shoulders and take a deep breath and say, okay, four more years of this crazy shit. And I think as long as he doesn't bumble us into World War III, you know, we just kind of get up and do the work every day and try to hold this administration to account the way we would and, you know, criticize and discuss and write about them the way we would today.

Look, Tim, the saddest part, American people made their decision and 51% of the American people made their decision. This is what they want. Okay. So, you know, we're all strapped into the same rocket and we're just going to have to deal with it. That's, you know, that's all we can do.

Yeah, they're going to get it good and hard, as many people have sent me. The HLM Incan. They just don't believe that that stove is hot and they've decided to touch it three or four or five or ten more times. Well, I want to talk in a little bit more detail about what actually the next steps look like practically, but I want to go back first. So you wrote...

for The Atlantic this week, saying Trump voters got what they wanted. But in the article, you kind of talk about the various –

explanations and the various excuses and recriminations that are happening. And I guess you have a more, you have a different view. Why don't you talk about what you think? First of all, as you know, I was never part of the, yeah, she's going to make it chorus. I said, I hope she makes it. She's running a good campaign, doing the right things. She's not taking, you know, Trump's bait. She's, she's doing all the stuff she needed to do.

But I always had this kind of sick feeling in the pit of my stomach that if Trump could win the Republican nomination and this country had not shunned him and driven him out of the public space, then he was going to win.

I'm Biden couldn't have won. Let's get that. Let's just stop all that right now. There's no way Joe Biden had the energy for the kind of schedule she was on. I don't understand a lot of criticisms of the Biden first term. People say, well, she should have run away from the Biden record. His first term was awful. Maybe it's the former Republican me. I keep I keep looking at his first term and going, that was a pretty good term.

That's a term most people would have run on hands down. Oh, she's got to talk about the economy because people are suffering with full employment and 2.5% inflation. I just couldn't get my arms around what she was supposed to do there. So I think a lot of the recrimination and the what ifs, I think he was just going to win because, and this is the part that's hard to say, Tim, she was going to win because that's who most of us are now.

you know, that millions of people have become, they're not accepting of Donald Trump. They have become like Donald Trump. They, they identify with him. And that means that he was just going to win. But now with that said, I think if the Democrats are having a come to Jesus moment about the baggage that she had to carry with her, some of which she packed herself earlier in her career, uh,

you know, then fine. Have that argument, you know, about how far left I just this morning before you and I started talking, I saw the numbers for Dearborn, Michigan. Okay. You're going to have that kind of, you know, loss in Dearborn. First of all, I think the tweet was from Jim Manley who basically said to the Arab voters of Dearborn, good luck. Now that you've got Trump and Netanyahu. Okay. I guess, you know, wow. You showed them.

But if you're going to lose a place like Dearborn, a place that you used to win handily, and you want to have a discussion about whether college students ought to be –

driving big chunks of the Democratic Party, great, have that conversation. But I don't think it was going to matter that much in 2024. I think the American people, a lot of the American people, especially in the swing states, just said, still believe presidents have the magical ability to do things. And Trump especially plays into that, right? You know, I'll make gas cheaper. How? You know, Jedi mind trick. I just can because I'm magic because I'm Superman.

But also the other thing that he did is he said, basically, and I take a lot of static about this. He said, I'm not boring. I'll bring back the drama. I'll bring back the reality TV show that you all love so much. And they got what they voted for. I'm torn about this. That's undoubtedly true. And I'm torn about the response to it because I have the two wolves inside of me in response to that. And the one is...

Fuck the rubes. These people are going to get what they want. Like, you want it? Good luck. We'll see. I can afford those tariffs. You can't. Yeah. And the other, the angel inside of me also says...

You know, the Dems actually didn't really do a good job of trying to care, trying to show that they care, right? And that's hard, right? Because at one point you're like, what, you're supposed to show that you care about their deep-seated concerns about transgender reassignment surgery in prison or whatever the other thing is? But it's like, I don't know. To me, if there is any recrimination and you look back, it's like there's a big part of the country that's

that rightly or wrongly feel like the Democrats don't care about them. And I know it's the Republicans who are like, facts don't care about your feelings, but you know, we're in politics. This is politics. The whole point is to win campaigns. And if you have 42% of the country that their impression of you is that they, is that you think that they're racist and stupid and idiots and you want to make fun of them and look down on them, then you're already starting from a pretty low base, you know?

Of achievable vote, especially when some of these people had voted for Democrats in the past. So I am genuinely torn. This is a genuine question. I'm wondering what you think about it. Okay, there I think three things. First of all, there's an irony here because nobody hates the kind of rural working poor as much as the Republicans do.

You know, you and I know this. I mean, they Trump hates them. Right. Most of the people who represent them hate them, don't want to be around them, don't want to have to visit those community centers and schools. I mean, look at the lengths to which so many of these Republican legislators go not to live in their own districts. But the sense that that there is a big chunk of the Democratic Party that just doesn't care is true.

But let's split that into two things. First of all, maybe the anxiety about, you know, like prison transgender reassignment. But, you know, something the Democrats, I'm going to say the Democrats helped to bring that on themselves. I mean, at one point there was a really revealing moment.

when Kamala Harris was getting prodded about this by Brett Baier and, and in kind of frustration, she said, why are you focusing on something that affects such a small number of people? And I was watching this and I wanted to say to the screen, because you did, because your party does, you know, because you've made this a kind of simple. And, and I was watching the day after I was on morning Joe. And just before I, you know, my hit time came up, you know, you can watch the show and,

I think it was Donnie Dwight saying, look, you know, the Democrats have to not be, they have to move to the center. And one of the panelists said the center. So we don't care about trans people. And I was like, oh, there it is again. You know, it's like, why are, why is everybody so obsessed about trans? Well, because if it's the first thing you think of when someone says you need to move to the center, then.

Maybe you're playing into that. But the problem that I have in joining those Democrats who don't care, when people say, Tom, you don't care enough about how people are suffering in this economy because eggs are five bucks a carton. Yeah, they're five bucks a carton here in Rhode Island, where Trump increased his share here in Rhode Island, too. He lost the state. But I have a hard time with the typical American who says,

about $5 eggs, driving the big truck and spending the money that we spend on gambling and sports and all the other stuff. I mean, there is a part of me that says the very poorest people in this country, nobody seems to care about, except

Except the Democrats at this point who, you know, have always kind of been there to say we need to have free the Tim Walz Democrats. Right. We need to have free lunches for hungry kids. But that other argument about you're supposed to really empathize with the suffering of.

you know, people who are living in half million dollar houses and driving big trucks who just happen to be pissed off because eggs for a year or a year and a half have been a couple of bucks higher, even as all the other stuff cools off.

I admit it. I have that same problem of saying, you know what? I give up. I don't know how to talk to you. And when Trump starts dumping tariffs on things, here's the part that really worries me. If I can just jump from that subject to the thing that the popcorn kernel really stuck in my teeth. Trump is going to inherit a great economy. I can't even think about it. It's so annoying. Right? And the day after he's inaugurated, he's going to say, there it is. We've solved everything. Economy's great. You know,

Flow interest rate. I can't even think about it. Yeah. And he's going to take credit. And for a year, he's going to skate on Biden's soft landing. The thing, the problem of not caring, right? When people say, but Tom, the economy, I'm like, listen, two years ago, we were expecting a massive recession.

the soft landing that got pulled off by this administration and by the Fed, nobody thought was possible. And now you're bitched out about it because the recession didn't happen. But gas is only $2.99 a gallon now. The death of expertise. All your experts failed us on that one. All the economists said there was a recession coming. The economic experts were like, of

Of course, you know, there's always that trapdoor phrase, if current trends continue, right? Listen, when I was gaining weight, if current trends continue, you know, I'd be 3,000 pounds. At some point, you try and do something. And that's what policy does, right? It's to make sure you don't end up weighing 3,000 pounds, to make sure that you don't end up in a recession. And good policy created a soft landing. Trump's going to take total credit for that. He's then going to screw the pooch.

He's going to do that thing with tariffs. He just like, you know, we don't have to guess at this, right? Remember, he had to bail out the farmers. He had to do relief for small businesses that he screwed over by messing with China because he didn't understand how supply chains work and doesn't understand how tariffs work.

And then he's going to say, I had a great economy. Democrats messed it up. I don't know what happened. I take no responsibility at all. That's where my lack of empathy overcomes me because I know that's going to happen. And I know that the people that are going to believe that horseshit are the same people right now telling me, I don't know, Tom, eggs were five bucks and, you know,

I mean, I know fascism is bad, but, you know, eggs. I'm with you on the fucking rich Trumpers who are complaining and will spend, unfortunately, way more of my brain power than I would like unraveling all of their fake...

grievances for the foreseeable future. That said, when I think about the Democrats problem, and maybe this is wrong, I'm open. I'm going to try over the next few months to have like some lefty populace on maybe they need to be do lefty populace policy. Maybe my instinct is I don't think so, though. Actually, I think that the Democrats answer is always a policy paper.

And to me, the reality is when I think in my mind's eye, who could go to a town hall, not a little bit called town hall, who could go shoot the shit with the guys at the MMA fight that Trump goes to, who could go to, you know, the sec tailgate and just, you know, shoot the shit who could go to a farm gathering, you know, in Lamar's Iowa, you know, like where everybody's sitting around doing coffee and like demonstrate that

that they actually care about these people and are listening to them. I don't think the Democrats have anybody. I literally can't think of any, I can't think of anyone. They had Sherrod Brown until 10 minutes ago. And he's okay with that kind of Fetterman. I guess the answer is Fetterman, but he struggles to talk. So he's not a particularly strong communicator. But to me, it's as much about like some of it is policy, but some of it is like, they're just not showing up.

And for a group of people, the Democrats are always like, oh, you've got to show up. You've got to listen to this group. You've got to elevate that group. You've got to do like that is the Democrats ethos. And so I just don't understand if you're like, oh, you have to make space for the native community and you got to make space for the LGBTQ. But you don't make any space for 42 percent of the country. Like, listen to yourself, I think.

To me, like, that's my instinct is that is the main issue. Well, I'm of two minds of this, as I am about everything now. One is, I don't want presidents doing that. I like, you know, I mean, yeah, Reagan used to put on his hat and all that stuff. But remember that the big slam on Ronald Reagan and Nancy Reagan was that they were too regal. Right. Right. That they had this kind of lazy majesty, you know, the designer dresses and the whole thing. Yeah. But fast forward, W could do it.

Obama could do it. Obama. All right. I will give you Obama and I would give you Bill Clinton could do it. But among Republicans. Bill Clinton could do it. Every president. That's every president except Biden who was elected during a pandemic. Clinton. No. Bush. Obama. Bush 41 couldn't do it. 43 though. After 41. Message. I care. Yeah, but there are still only three networks in Bush 41. In the modern media era, in the modern media era, all of them have been able to do it. I know. And I don't. I think that's a problem.

I don't want presidents. I want presidents that are competent, who know their job, who know foreign policy, who are people of steady character and steely nerves. I don't really care if they can go do the corndog and all that populist bullshit. I think part of the reason that we're in the situation we're in

Is that people have come to expect that, you know, it's like, well, he needs to be just like me. No, I don't want the president to be just like me. I'm I'm not that competent. I'm not that good. I'm I'm just a middle aged guy in Rhode Island. I want the president to be somebody who has real talent and ability and whether he can hang around with me down at the clam boil.

You know, here in Middletown, I don't give a shit about that. But I understand, as you just said, in the words of Hyman Roth and Godfather 2, this is the business we've chosen, right? You know, this is politics, and you have to win those elections. But

On the other hand, a lot of those folks live in such an epistemic bubble. At some point today, I'll tell you more about this conversation I had. Two hours I spent talking to a Trump supporter in Pennsylvania, and it was trippy. But I will agree with you about this. How many times, and I know you've said this to friends, and I know I've said it when talking to other never-Trumpers or former Republicans or centrists, stop scaring the normals.

Right. That's all you have to do to win these elections. Don't scare the normies. And I think I think Harris, to her credit,

figured that out fast because in 2019, you know how I felt about Harris in 2019 and 2020, I was like, oh man, this is really a, you know, bad idea, you know, far to the left and doesn't, but you know, she was a different candidate by 2024. I'm glad, you know, people learn, they can change. But I think too much of the democratic party, I think on this, the critics that have argued that the democratic party now being the party of college educated people basically,

has lost its ability to talk to people who come from working class backgrounds, who are not steeped in the latest, you know, gender studies controversies. And I think that that's something that has to be recaptured. And I think a lot of Democrats think it's like dirty to have to do that, that there's an impurity involved in that.

It's funny you brought up trans issues, you know, because I was talking to a Democrat. I said, not a winning issue right now for the Democrats. If you're swimming upstream against, you know, Republicans, they're going to take all of these ad buys and they love this issue and they go after it. And the answer was something like, well, trans people can't wait for their rights. Well, OK, they're not better off today.

That's for sure. As is anybody, any minority community, no minority community is better off today after what happened on Tuesday. I also hate the false binary, you know, and this is what I'm talking about, about being able to talk normal.

You can talk about protecting trans people in a manner that is reminiscent of how American politicians have talked for a long time about how everybody has dignity. We're not trying to throw anybody under the bus. Like there's ways to do this that it is not. I'm sorry, Kamala Harris. I'm sorry to obsess about this, but Kamala Harris has her pronouns in her bio still.

okay it's just like i get it i get it but like and by the way i respect this if you prefer to be identified as they them or if you're trans like awesome i have trans friends i love trans people okay but like kamala harris is obviously she her and so i've went as to people that don't like that aren't involved in this in this sort of debate and aren't familiar and don't know any trans people and aren't familiar with all this they look at this and they're like

Like, this is ridiculous. This person doesn't actually care about me, you know? Right. Or it opens the door for them to say, I don't know what that's about. What is that about? And of course, the Republicans interpose very quickly and say, we'll tell you what it's about. Yeah, right. It's about an attack on you and your family and God and country and all that other stuff. And you can protect trans people and speak like a normal human. This was the frustrating thing to me. You can protect everybody. And yeah, I was like on MS yesterday and I was just listening to some of the politicians and just the way in which Democrats talk.

Like, to me, that's the wake-up call. I know you love this. This is why I wanted to have Tom Nichols on, because you want the highfalutin rhetoric. You know, you want the creed of core, right? You want the reference to Montesquieu. No, come on. Oh, no, no. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Whoa, you forget who I am and where I come from. I have never quoted Montesquieu. And I mean, like I said, remember, I'm the guy in my stuff. You're going to more often find a Don Corleone quote than you're going to find Montesquieu. I know. I mean, look, I agree with you.

You know, we're in heated agreement about this, that if we're going to keep bashing the Democrats for a moment more, because I think we have, you know, this is part of bashing. It's like it's we're all together. Yeah, we're all in this together. It's just like, you know, you know, I think it's worth trying to figure it out.

What else are we going to do? Well, I think it's especially important to figure it out not for the presidential election, which, you know, look, Kamala Harris spoke like a completely normal person for three months in this election. And Donald Trump talked like a gibbering... A completely normal politician. Yes, a normal politician. But Donald Trump also was, you know, a gibbering, delusional old man going on about, you know, sharks and all that stuff. So, you know, this double standard...

where we say, well, now Democrats have to talk like that. And Donald Trump can sound like, you know, he's off his medication and wandering the streets in a hospital, Johnny. Totally.

Right? I mean, that's every time I hear Trump, I just think of this guy with the Johnny open in the back and a New York city policeman saying, come in, come out of the road, come out of the road. I just sort of again, set the table. There is no shortage of, of complaints about Donald Trump's language policies, behavior, character here. My point is we're doing politics. And when you're doing politics, you're trying to win campaigns. And so what, so, and this was, this was a devastating loss. And it's the down ticket campaigns where I think that really can hurt a lot of that language.

can really hurt. And you saw the Democrats already starting to pay that price with people like Cori Bush.

and Jamal Bowman. And, you know, that look at one yesterday in red districts, Jared Golden, Marie Glusenkamp Perez, you know, they are working class. Like these, these are some Dems that exist. Actually, I should revise and extend my remarks about Fetterman earlier. Both of them are people that I think could go into these spaces and talk normal and do a hang. Right. And they're, they're not Joe Manchin, corporate moderates. The, my last criticism here, while we're on the subject of Democrats is when you're putting pronouns in your

It's because you're trying to send a signal that part of it's well-intentioned, right, to say, I see you. I care about your issues. I'm an ally and so on. But you're also trying to shore up these shaky flanks all the time that Republicans, you know, this is as a former Republican guy, Tim, the Republicans never have to do that. Right.

I mean, look at how they treated Nikki Haley. Didn't matter. Didn't matter. You know, I always think of that. It's possibly apocryphal, but I think it's been attributed to Deaver, um,

back in 84 when somebody told the Reagan campaign, the evangelicals are really mad at you, right? Because Reagan didn't get prayer in schools and outlaw abortion and do all this stuff. He, you know, but on the campaign show, yes, yes, of course we're going to do it. Of course. Then he gets an officer. Yeah, we're not doing any of that shit. And so they, they told the campaign, they're really mad at you. And this Reagan aid says, fuck them. What are they going to do? Vote for Mondale. Yeah.

Right. You know, because they won't. The problem is that the Democrats are constantly getting these kinds of, you know, pasted up hostage letters from various constituencies saying, you know, remember us or this section of the vote gets thrown in the river, you know. And it's also part of the nature of the coalition, though, because the fuck-em strategy –

actually didn't work with Arab voters that were concerned about Gaza and potentially young progressives. And we got to wait for the numbers to come in. But like, I mean, she did try to, I mean, she did stay away from that third rail. And I think part of the reason that she didn't pick Shapiro. And I don't think that was a, I think that was a good call not to pick Shapiro for a lot of reasons.

is that she didn't want to have to walk with him through Michigan and go through all that. But the problem is that, that there is always something, you know, you and I and other never Trumpers went through this in 2016 when we were trying to make the big tent argument to our friends in the democratic party to say, this is the nature of coalitions. I mean,

Roosevelt didn't like Stalin, but they managed to work together. And I think that there is just this kind of purity testing among Democrats that makes that really difficult. And it's not about Gaza or trans people or anything else. It's about all of it. It's about a very segmented coalition that is like a parliamentary party.

where every small party says, I must have my issue satisfied or I will withdraw during the vote of no confidence. And I think Harris, again, going to give more kudos to Harris. I think she held that together pretty well. And I think she threaded that pretty well. And I'm not sure that in 2024, there was any abandonment of, you know, wokety pronouns or any of that stuff that was going to help her. But I think now going into 2026, which could be...

you know, really the speed break on a lot of, I mean, if the, if the Democrats can do what you're supposed to do in a president's first, second, first term and put the brakes on Trump, you're right. They're going to have to learn to talk to. And can I add one more thing as a son of the working class and a man who grew up with an accent that I had to shed by the way, let's hear it. My accent. Yeah. Say this last point in your old accent that you showed us. All right. So, you know,

So I grew up near Springfield and them guys, let me tell you about them guys. They come in here. Okay. They come in and they don't want to hear nothing about, about those things. Okay.

And I grew up that, I mean, I had to, I had to learn how to pronounce TH, you know, this, that, them, those. Okay, fine. Don't mimic these things. Don't be a college educated, you know, go and say, and now I'm fixing and I'm a gonna, and you know, just, just be yourself. It's okay. You know, I don't need to, don't do that.

And I think both parties do that, except the Republicans get away with it because Republicans are so – their party discipline is so strong. They just don't give a crap about any of that. But you don't have to walk in – I mean, I know she got accused of code switching and all that stuff. But you can talk to normal Americans in your normal voice and –

and not have to pantomime caring about that stuff. Just talk to people, talk to people and realize that not everybody went to grad school and not everybody is on Twitter. Hey, y'all, after this election, having been out there so much speaking against Donald Trump, I've had to just take some basic precautions when thinking about me and my family's security. If you're feeling the same way because of politics or for other personal reasons,

Well, you could turn to our show's sponsor, Delete.me. Do you ever wonder how much your personal data is out there on the internet for anyone to see? More than you think. Your name, contact info, social security number, and home address. Even information about your family members. All being compiled by data brokers and sold online. That's why I personally recommend Delete.me. Delete.me is a subscription service that removes your personal info from hundreds of data brokers.

You can sign up and provide Delete.me with exactly what information you want deleted, and their experts take it from there. Delete.me sends you regular personalized privacy reports showing what info they found, where they found it, and what they removed. Delete.me isn't just a one-time service. Delete.me is always working for you, constantly monitoring and removing the personal information you don't want on the internet.

Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me, now at a special discount for our listeners. Today, get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindeleteme.com slash bulwark and use promo code bulwark at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindeleteme.com slash bulwark and enter code bulwark at checkout. That's joindeleteme.com slash bulwark code bulwark.

All right, we spent 28 minutes of hair shirt. I want to go forward. But one more quick back question, which is the anti hair shirt question. I'm going to put the link to this in the show notes or for people want to look at us. Derek Thompson, who's had on the pod posted a chart that goes back to I don't know, like the middle of the 20th century about how global incumbent parties did.

in a given year. And in 2024 is the only year, I guess we're in November, so I guess some incumbent party could, I don't know if there are any elections between now and January, but it's the only year where every incumbent party lost share. Everyone, all around the world.

I find this very strange that 2024 is the year of suffering for everybody. I mean, the inflation, certainly, inflation's annoying. I'm with it. And some people really suffered through inflation. But there's been a lot of suffering over the course of the last 80 years. It's a little strange to me that it's an outlier, I guess, in levels of suffering. But maybe there's just nothing. Maybe this is all just hot air. And it was just...

It was literally just the eggs. It was just the eggs. And that's it. And the phones, it's just the eggs and the phones. People hear more complaints now than they did back then. And the inflation was annoying. And that's it. All incumbents were fucked. Okay. But I saw Derek's chart and the explanation for why now, by the way, is that like in the first wave of inflation, people got it. It's like, yes, it's the pandemic. Nobody can do anything. But then when, because prices plummeted,

persist and stay high for another year after that, that's when people said, okay, the government should do something about that. Of course, governments, unless they want to institute price controls, they can't do anything about it. This is part of that myth of executive power. The difference is, in the one place I'm not going to let

the United States off the hook. First of all, we're supposed to be smarter than that. And in those other countries, getting rid of the incumbents did not mean trading off for a sociopath. I'm not letting us off the hook either. Okay. Bill Kristol has a newsletter this morning that is a stealing your spine. The fight must go on. We must fight. You know, we must band together again. And I don't know. We few. Yeah, we few. We marry few. We band of brothers.

I'm letting the devil inside me talk now. This is just going to be this podcast for the next month. So if people want that, that's great. You're welcome here. Do we actually? Shouldn't we let them burn it down?

Shouldn't we let them just fucking shouldn't we let them just do in their own shit for two years? Do we fight? Like, do it? Why? Why? What? Let him have it. Let him let him get it. Let him get Trump. And I guess there's strategy of how to fight, right? Like if he appoints an insane person to one of these cabinet positions, great. Let him point this craziest fucking person that he can find to all these things. Why would we push back? Why fight? I think it depends on what it is.

I'm going to tell a tale out of school from the days when Bill and I were at these early, you know, holy crap, never Trump meetings. I'd show up sometimes. You were there. That's one of the ways we met. I love that we practically met in a bunker. Remember that? It was literally, yeah, it was a basement. It was dank. It was like the man from Uncle, you know, it's like go over to the elevator and a guy nods and you go down and, you know, a typical elevator in a big city, or is it?

And I remember one of the discussions that I had with Bill back then was, and there were other people, you know, Elliot Cohen wrote a very famous piece about this, about should you work for Trump? And I said this in my piece yesterday, the decision that the Republican Party, the people that worked for Trump came to is to put baby bumpers and pool noodles on all the sharp edges around Trump. Yeah.

And I remember that that was a big discussion among that group and among a lot of other Republicans of saying, you know, do we let them just, but you know, Tim, it goes back to the thing you said earlier about, okay, but then a lot of people suffer, you know, needlessly. I think we might need that. Well, okay. But not needlessly, actually, maybe there's a need. I don't want to be one of them is the thing. So when it comes to places like the Defense Department,

Look, if Trump wants to – I think tariffs is a great example. He keeps on tariffs, tariffs, tariffs. Hey, go for it. I mean I'm the guy that back when I was still –

writing at USA Today, I said, let's have that trade war. Get it started. Do it. Touch that stove. Embrace it because that's the only way you're going to learn. But I do think if he wants to put Robert F. Kennedy in charge of national health, I think in that case, Bill's point is well taken, that you have to really square up and say, no, I'm not going to let this deranged

weirdo kill children, you know, simply because it would be fun to watch it happen and watch the world burn. But there's a different way to approach it. Say we have to fight. The first thing I wrote, the thing that I finished writing at three o'clock in the morning, you know, with a bottle of bourbon next to me was to say, look, deep breath, square your shoulders, one foot in front of the other. Don't run into the streets screaming, right?

you know, but start talking to other people, you know, citizen associations, figure out the candidates you're going to support, the organizations you're going to donate to places that are going to, you know what I'm saying? I'm sorry. You know, no more demonstrative canceling of subscriptions, you know, help pay for journalism that will, you know, hold these people to account. You may hate some of the people, local ones, subscribe to your local paper. If you have one, be engaged,

but not obsessed. Don't stare at the TV. Like I haven't, I don't know about you. I've been, I haven't watched the news for like two days. Unfortunately, I've been on the news for fucking two days and I'm considering jumping off a 30 Rockefeller. But, uh, I was, I was on, I was on morning Joe yesterday. So yes, I watched an hour of TV and,

But the minute it was over, you know, I said, okay, I don't... Because it was like, okay, we have more results coming in. No, I know the result. I don't need to know, you know, what Hamden County, Massachusetts... I was sitting there at five in the morning and Steve Kornacki is like, in Winnebago County, you can see this. Trump is plus five. And then you go to...

You know, whatever. We're in county and he's plus nine. And I'm like, he's plus in every county, Steve. I don't need to listen to this for 20 minutes. You don't need to keep. He's pressing every new county, you know. Oakland County, he's up 11. And I'm like, yeah, he's up in every county. Steve's got a job to do, dude.

I know, but I'm just saying there as a consumer of it, it was driving me insane. Like that character on, see, I don't go for Montesquieu. I was thinking of that character on Galaxy Quest who says, repeats what the computer says. I have one job on this ship and it might be stupid, but I'm going to do it. You know, all systems are normal. Captain, all systems are normal. I needed that laugh.

The election might be over, but if that post-election anxiety is still hanging around, Pod Save America is here to help you process what's happening now and what comes next. Every Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday, failed Survivor contestant John Lovett, Tommy Vitor, Jon Favreau, and Dan Pfeiffer deliver expert political analysis you can trust and no BS takes on where we all go from here. Tune in to Pod Save America wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.

I want to make one more case for that resistance is futile. We're like 40 minutes into this and we're slap happy. Yeah, I know. Here's Nick Cattagio over at the dispatch. And if you'll indulge me, I just need to read quite a bit of it because it spoke to my dark soul in a deep way.

Trump's voters broke America and deserve to get what they've bought economically, politically, and morally. I was right about the rottenness of the electorate, and I'll be right in spades about the rottenness of Trump's abuses in a second term. And when millions of our friends and neighbors decide they don't care how abusive his being, so long as he's hurting the right people, I'll remind everyone who scolded me for assuming the worst about our wonderful fellow American

that I was right about that too. If you've been dismayed by what Trump voters have been willing to condone in the past, get ready. You ain't seen nothing yet. We're going to hear a lot of nonsense from never Trumpers in the months ahead about how the valuable work of democracy goes on and we must fight to save America or whatever. And that's fine. It's human nature to answer defeat with defiance, but it's also silly. Ultimately, a country is just as people and you can't save these people from themselves.

whoo, that's a heater. That's a heater. I don't know if I agree with it, but there's a lot of truth there. I do agree with it. And I think that's, you know, that's why I love to read Nick because as you know, that's the one 80 proof white lightning right there. But, but, you know, look, he's, I've, this is the misanthrope in me, you know, after the 2016 election, I gave a talk about,

at a college in upstate New York. And one of the faculty who was actually a Trumper, there are college professors who are Trumpers, believe it or not. I wrote about this in my last book, this incident. He said, your contempt for the voters is palpable. And I said, yeah, for some voters, yes.

It is. I'm not required to, you know, I'm not Jesus. I'm not required to love them for their votes. I'm required to love them as human beings, but I don't have to love them for, you know, what they've done. He said, yeah, that contempt is palpable. And I said, so is yours. I said, you just hate a different bunch of people.

And you hate them deeply. And you think it's okay to hate them because of the power dynamic or whatever you justify. Well, the power dynamic and right away he went to an abortion. Well, they support something evil. Oh, all right. So we're about to see some evil. Yes, exactly. And I think the one thing I hope and that I really liked in Nick's screed there is enough of this double standard. Oh, you know, you can't judge them for their votes. The hell I can't.

You need to reach out to them and we're all in this together. And no, no, you know, I respect their right as citizens to vote the way they want to, but I'm not required to affirm them.

And I think that's the thing, that double standard where we infantilized Trump voters for so long. Right. This is this is the same dynamic. And I think Nick's railing against this quite rightly. This is the same dynamic that had well-meaning reporters tromping out to diners in East Cupcake, you know, to say, you know, you're a 65 year old retiree driving a Cadillac Cadillac.

Why are you so angry? What can we do to make you less angry? In a sense, I've always said, you know, the answer is like, well, you can get that girl at the Starbucks named Rainbow out of there because I don't like her nose rings. You know, I mean, it's like you can't reason with any of these folks. You know, when you're asked, well, are you saying that by making this choice, they're bad people? Some of them.

Some of them. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm willing to grab millions of people who said, I really don't know that much about this. I mean, I've, I've come to accept that there are people who literally are so detached from the day to day affairs of their own country that they really don't know the difference between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris in any meaningful way. And they say like, you know, friends back home and say, well, I don't know about any of this. Republicans are always better for the economy. Yeah.

Okay, I think that's irresponsible and it's bad citizenship, but I don't think it makes them bad people. But the people who want what Trump was selling, and there are tens of millions of them, yeah, yeah, this is a – I think Nick is right on the money about something here that no more talk, consigliere, no more rationalizations about this. These are people making a moral choice, and it's really a bad one.

Stop me before I rant some more, but... No, no, that's right. I have one edit to Nick's point, and I think we don't have time to hash this out now, but I just... So people know where my head's at, and there'll be much discussion about this in the months to come. You know, I do think that the valuable work to save America goes on. The valuable work of democracy goes on. I guess, maybe. I don't know. My edit to him is maybe there is some element of for this year, for 2025, letting people see...

unadulterated Trumpism actually might be the work of saving America. And, you know, trying to do little things to make yourself feel better about putting bumpers on it might not be it. So anyway, much to discuss on that. You know me, I have, I argued from day one, don't put the bumpers on things other than things that could produce nuclear disaster or the deaths of millions of children. The rest of it, especially the economic stuff,

Have at it. We've learned America's resilience. And maybe, well, I just go back to the top of the podcast. Maybe people need to get it good and hard so that we can get back to an equilibrium. Because if not, otherwise, then you're in a total nihilistic place, which is like, well, nothing. It's unfixable. And I'm not there.

Well, and also I think people to our left, you know, one of the big arguments that I had over the years was I, because I will do this when he becomes president. I will write about him. I'm going to cover those crazy press conferences. I want to amplify partly as a way of keeping the record, you know, but also because I think that the more you see of Trump, the less you can deny it. And I don't want people on the left saying, stop amplifying him.

Stop sending out his message. That's all over and done. I think, and my other argument, which we'll be discussing over the next year, is I do think that maybe a refocus on the details of what is happening in the Trump administration over the words coming out of his mouth is probably going to be a useful pivot and one that I'm going to try to focus on myself. Okay. I'm going to have to add one more thing about that. Please, one more thing. And I have one more serious topic we need to close on. All right. This person I spoke to in Pennsylvania said,

voted early and then i said but you're not concerned about what you're seeing like that you didn't think that matt because she said oh i'm not a racist and i don't go i don't like any of that like you know like like that was somehow like any of that other stuff as if it's not central to trump's being exactly and uh but i said well you didn't like madison's great she said no once i voted i turned off everything i don't fall i don't watch the news anymore

Now that is alarming, deeply alarming, because that is not only am I in an epistemic bubble, I am building one. I'm building it from the inside out.

And that's why, you know, all of that stuff, everything he does, it needs to be, you know, covered and not normalized. Because I will say, you know, we were a little hard on the Democrats today, I think, because I want to be kind of hard on at least some journalists who did engage in sanewashing.

And really indulging that bias toward coherence and not really covering. I mean, there is no argument. Donald Trump was not covered the way Joe Biden would have been covered if he had done the same things. For Democrats are getting sensitive. There's no criticism I can offer of Democrats that is deeper than my criticism of myself. So trust me, it's all all the shame is on this side of the microphone. All right. You know, Alexander Dugan, Putin's brain. Yeah.

brain. He sent some tweets this week. You see those by chance? Yes, I did. I'm going to read a couple of them to you because I think that there's a little bit of mocking, but also some very serious worries for us to close the podcast with.

So we have won. That is decisive. The world will never, ever be like before. Globalists have lost their final combat. The future is finally open. Now we have to rethink our global strategy, how the world traditionalist circles should shape their common policy. We need to reintroduce our society's traditional values here post-modernity meets postmodernity.

pre-modernity. And then he cites J.D. Vance saying he's announced that, I don't know if J.D. Vance actually announced this, but Dugan said that he did. The post-liberal right-wing era is coming. This is exactly what's needed. No alliance between the right and liberals, only traditional values. They're pretty happy in Moscow.

Yeah. Although, listen, this is where I'm going to be a little bit of a, hopefully a calming influence. Great. Don't overreact to Dugan. Dugan says this, you know, every 45 minutes. This is what Dugan does. There's no doubt they're happy though. Medvedev. Oh, in Moscow, they're, they're popping champagne again in Moscow and in Beijing. Uh,

America's enemies rooted for the election of Donald Trump. As the kids say, let that sink in. So there's no doubt about it. But Dugan is a nut. And even Putin has kind of held him at arm's length on occasion. But Dugan does bring up something that people should think about that as nutty as Donald Trump is, and he makes no sense, and there's going to be a lot of terrible policies.

You know, Vance and the tech bros around him are really dangerous because they have really stupid ideas. They think they can be implemented. They have no experience in politics. You know, we just elected a vice president who had literally like 24 months of experience in politics. To me, I think the thing about the Dugan thing that is right, I hear what your point about his clownishness and braggadocio is.

We're all liberals now. I think it was Bill Kristol that wrote that. The fight ahead is really not about conservatism and progressivism or whatever. It's the survival of the liberal order is the fight ahead. It's the global democratic coalition against a global authoritarian movement. Had Americans thought about it more in that way? Of course, you know, I don't know if that would have broken through the big egg scandal, but

You know, it's like, hey, you know, China and Russia, you're electing a guy who says that like Nancy Pelosi is more dangerous than the guy pointing 1500 nuclear warheads at us. Would that have, you know, really broken through the the horror and the pain of five dollar eggs? I don't know. Maybe not. Tom Nichols.

The eggs are expensive. It's a mad world out there. I think that the laugh about the Kornacki map was the first real laugh, not like doomsday laugh I've had since Tuesday night. So I appreciate you indulging me and sharing that with me. And we'll be talking soon. All right. In a basement, probably. Take care, Tim. We'll see you. Thanks to Tom Nichols. We'll be back tomorrow with an old friend, Friday edition of the Bulwark Podcast. See you then. Peace.

around me are familiar faces worn out places worn out faces bright and early for their daily races going

Going nowhere. Their tears are filling up their glasses. No expression. No expression. Hide my head. I want to drown my sorrow. No tomorrow. No tomorrow. And I find it kind of funny.

I find it kind of sad. The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had. I find it hard to tell you. I find it hard to take. When people run in circles, it's a very, very mad world.

Children waiting for the day they feel good Happy birthday, happy birthday Made to feel the way that every child should Sit and listen, sit and listen

went to school and I was very nervous no one knew me no one knew hello teacher tell me what's my lesson look right through me look right through

Man, I find it kind of funny, I find it kind of sad. The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had. I find it hard to tell you, I find it hard to take. When people run in circles, it's a very, very mad world. Enlarge your world.

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.