Rep. Mikie Sherrill: Who Will Be In Charge of Our National Security?
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Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We got a mailbag at the end, so stick around for that. Plus, I am just delighted to be here with a very bulwarky Congresswoman. She's from New Jersey and just launched her campaign for governor and Congress. She's a member of the House Armed Services Committee. She's also a former U.S. Navy helicopter pilot and a former prosecutor. Much to discuss. It's Mikey Sherrill. How are you doing, Congresswoman? I'm doing great. How are you? I'm doing great.

You said not great. Yeah. I've been better. I've been better. You're doing great. Is that really true? Or is it politician talk? You know what? I probably should say world adjusted. I'm doing great. I just had a wonderful Thanksgiving. My daughter is in the Navy. She's at the Naval Academy Prep School. So she was just home. And I saw her. And then I just announced I'm running for governor. So I'm very excited about that. I'm sort of...

of, you know, an action-oriented person. So in the wake of the election, having a mission, a plan, it just felt good, I have to say. I hear that. I also am an action-oriented person, and it's been advice I've been giving folks, you know, because I get messages from people who are, you

like, reasonably quite broken, right? And quite down about what happened in the election and scared. But they want to do something, right? And it's like, what can we do? The reality is, at a national level, it's kind of tough at this point. And you can contact, we'll talk a little bit about Pete Hegseth in a bit, our DOD designate, at least for the moment. Who knows if that'll be true at the end of the day. So you can call your senator or whatever.

But I've been saying, honestly, find stuff locally to get involved in. But I don't know. Do you have advice for people that can't decide to run for governor but are looking for things to do? Yeah, I think you're exactly right. We have to find those pathways for what we can do, what change that we can affect. And there's the...

Is it the serenity prayer or the prayer of St. Francis that, you know, you've got to understand, you know, what you can change and what you can't change and knowing the difference. And I do think that that gives you a sense of purpose and direction if you look for those areas that you can truly make a difference. As I said earlier, it's why I'm running for governor. I feel...

I feel as if that is the area and the states now, and this is a little bit new for Democrats, right? I think we had relied on the federal government to protect a lot of rights and freedoms of the Supreme Court. We are now looking to the states, and I think it could be a very good place to

for us to redirect the party to really focus on those issues that I always say, you know, what's that last thing keeping you up at night? You know, maybe if you're a mom and, you know, you can't sleep, is it,

Are you worried about your rent? Are you worried about your mortgage? Are you worried about your kids' mental health? Are you worried about your job? What is it that is that last thing that you're just lying awake thinking, how am I going to do this?

And how can we address that? How can we move forward? Well, at the same time, I do think we need to relentlessly be the party of rights and freedoms as well. But I think we need to lead with our vision. And I think the election showed us that. I think we need to lead with a vision of how we're just going to make government work, how we're going to cut through red tape, how we're going to make sure that we are actually delivering for people.

And I say that because I have to tell you, you know, when I started running for Congress, people said, oh, why do you want to be in the House? You can't get anything done. You're going to be a freshman. You know, why bother? Right. Right.

And, you know, I don't come from that place. I think, you know, coming from the military, having that background, having that training, you know, it's never an option in the United States military to say, you know, the military doesn't work. It's too hard. We're just going to give up today. Let's all just, you know, skip the mission today and go take it easy.

There's a saying, lead, follow, or get out of the way. You have to choose where are you and how are you going to affect that change. To say government just doesn't work, so let's give up, that to me is just not an option. I went into Congress in only my second term. I was named the most effective lawmaker in the New Jersey House delegation and

And again, it reminded me of that when I decided to run for governor. A lot of people said, Mikey, don't do it. You can't get anything done. It's too broken. The budget's too tough. New Jersey transit's such a mess. It's just going to be bad for you. It's going to make you look bad because government can't function. And I just looked at that and I thought, I'm not

I'm not here because I don't get involved in public service because I'm thinking, oh my gosh, is this going to make me look good? Am I going to get down to Trenton and suddenly be like, oh, wow. I'm in public service because I truly believe that well-run government can make people's lives better, that we have a duty to deliver for people, that when people are lying awake at night thinking,

thinking of the things that are really problematic for them, that in the back of their mind, if they have a good governor of their state, they're thinking, but you know what? Mikey said she was really going to work hard on addressing this. And I'm going to go to bed now. And I'm just going to hope that tomorrow is better than today, because I know that she's got this and she's going to take care of this. So I can take this off my plate

And, you know, here's the million other worries I have. But this one, you know, I know we have a good leader here that's going to really focus on how she's going to make sure that, you know, my life's a little bit easier tomorrow.

So I think that that's, that all is smart and right for a run for governor. I do wonder how you think about this running for governor in a blue state, in a place where the state moved towards Trump, at least at the presidential level and the results. I think you're seeing people migrating out of blue states towards red states. And you're seeing people that have concerns about cost of living in blue states and

And, you know, you're running as a Democrat. The state's been run by Democrats. How do you make the pitch that you have something to offer to solve these problems in a place where the party's been in control for a while? Yeah. So I think...

Unlike some other states, in 2023, we actually had our population grow in New Jersey. And I know, believe me, I live in the world. I hear what people say about our beloved state, but we love it. And obviously, others are moving in and want to be in the state. So you're saying people moved to New Jersey in 2023? Yeah. To New Jersey. They're like, I got anywhere I can go. I'm going to New Jersey. Look at that.

See, this is what we're up against. This is what we're up against. But I have to say, New Jersey is a fantastic state. It's a wonderful state just because of all it offers. It's an innovative state. It's an exciting state. It's a great place to raise a family. It has some of the best

public school systems in the nation. You know, so people love New Jersey. It's one of the states actually that traditionally has the most intergenerational families of any state in the nation, meaning that people who are born in the state and raise a family in the state want to retire in the state. Some of that is being broken, though, just for the very reasons you're pointing out, a lot of its cost of living. And so we're seeing the cautionary tales of other blue states.

We're not going to be able to continue to run the great economy that we've been successful at running, whether it's in some of our healthcare sectors, our pharmaceutical sectors, our medical device sector, our defense-based sector, our space sector. I mean, these are all growing places, and they run in New Jersey because we have one of the most talented workforces in the nation. And that is a gift. I mean, that is great that we have that.

But if we don't address affordability, if we don't address cost of living, we are going to very quickly see the problems that we're seeing in other blue states. And we've already seen those problems in the electorate as they're weighing in and saying, you know,

it's just getting too hard here. And how is it that in the richest country in the world and one of the richest states in the nation, I'm having such a hard time getting by? And so that is what we need to address. And that's what I've constantly been focused on in Congress. So whether it's housing affordability, the legislation I have around grocery store prices, child care costs, all of this is directed at lowering costs for

for everyday families. And that is what we have to really truly address, or we are going to see pretty quickly a lot of the problems you just discussed in other blue states. I will say that my colleague Jonathan Last did move to New Jersey recently. He pretends he's in New York, though. And my college bestie was from Cherry Hill and pretended like he was from Philly. So that seems to be another problem that you have to address as governor of New Jersey, banning people from pretending like they're in New York or Philly. Exactly.

How dare they? Is it intractable, though? And it's easy to say, oh, well, yeah, affordability is a problem. Affordability is a problem across all these major metros, across most of the blue states. How do you do it? How do you change it? Particularly on housing, I guess. I mean, build more is the start, right? So New Jersey has some legislation and court decisions around affordable housing.

And so there's building requirements for affordable housing. But generally in our state, how developers do that is they build luxury apartment buildings. Right.

And then they have several affordable housing units within that. But what we have in the state largely is this missing middle. So when I look at my town, I'm in Montclair. When I look at my town and try to think of when in my naval career I could have afforded anything in Montclair, New Jersey, it wasn't when I was an ensign. It wasn't when I was a Lieutenant JG. It wasn't when I was Lieutenant, right? I'm not sure if there was a time while I was in the Navy that I could have afforded to live in my town.

If my kids want to move back after their careers or after they get out of college, I don't know where they're going to live other than my home. Which I'm sure you're thrilled about. I actually, I'm sad my daughter's gone, but a lot of people might want some independence and have their own place. I'm not sure my kids would be thrilled with moving back home as much as I'd like it. So where are people going to afford? And then if you're a senior and you're

You're trying to figure out, you know, I'd love to sell this home I'm in, but where are you going to move? Where are that kind of missing middle homes? How are we going to keep families there? How are we going to keep the workforce going? How are kids going to move off their parents' couches? That is all really too hard. And what that does, too, is then that puts higher pressure on the rental market.

And so we're seeing people, you know, I heard of a woman who was telling me that someone in her office who she employs, who makes a really good salary and just had to move to a different town because the rents got too high and she had two dot school age kids. So that's like pulling them out of their school system and moving to another one. So I say you start.

With some of these housing prices, and you've got to start by building. And when we look at the fact that in New Jersey, we're about 150,000 home units short of where we need to be to continue to move the workforce into the state and continue to innovate and move the jobs forward. That's a huge issue, especially when you compare it to places like Florida that have an overabundance of homes.

And so, you know, here's the thing. I mean, maybe you make a calculation. You know, am I worried about my rights and freedoms in Florida? Sure. But do I really want to afford a home with a backyard and a swimming pool versus, you know, small two bedroom apartment with my three kids? You know, maybe that's a trade you take for obvious reasons.

Speaking of Florida, my aforementioned colleague, Jonathan Last, wrote a newsletter recently about that with a provocative notion. That is that a Democratic governor in one of these blue states during the Trump years is going to have to be

a DeSantis of the left. And I know that shudder to even think that that might be you. That is not the moniker I'm going for, but... The DeSantis of the left. But someone that is just diligent about taking on the administration

administration and building a power center from the states since the Democrats aren't going to have one nationally. I just wonder what you just, I mean, obviously not about being like Ron DeSantis, but what you think about this notion of what role will Democratic governors have in combating the Trump administration? I think it's so key. I think it's both

Combating the excesses of the Trump administration, combating the bad economic decisions of the Trump administration, because people forget with the chaos that he engenders how really economically difficult.

tough it can be on families. So whether you're talking about in my state, the state and local tax deduction cap, or if you're talking about the failure to fund the Gateway Tunnel project as our transit system kept imploding, or you're talking about some of the attacks on the healthcare system so we couldn't move forward in driving down costs there, he was really impacting families. And now he is, you know, with some of the discussion that he's had on tariffs,

and the discussions that he's had on how he is going to lead, that could very easily cost families thousands and thousands of dollars. If he's going to deport everyone, as he suggests, beyond some of the real fears that families have about their loved ones, you're also talking about how are we going to run our economy? That's why I've always been a

fan of comprehensive immigration reform, making sure we have security at the border, processing at the border, but also pathways to citizenships for people who are working in our economy. So these things are going to be huge hits.

on everyday people. So a strong governor is going to need to punch back and a strong governor is going to need to stand in the breach there and say, no, to me, it's not just about pushing back. That is not enough to say, oh, I'm going to be a strong defender of our values in the state and of running the state economy in the wake of the chaos coming out of Washington. That's not visionary. That's not

future focus. You know, that might be something that people say, well, great for four years, maybe things won't get worse here, but how are things going to get better? That's my pitch. That's why I'm not running for governor. That's my pitch for four years. Maybe things won't get worse. I think that seems great to me actually, if that's true, but I hear you.

Yeah, I think Democrats have to have a vision. And I think it's through the Democratic governors. And I actually think that could be very good for our party. I think we have a really strong bench. I think we have people that have created successful administrations and have done things that are very popular with people and have really impacted change. I think we have to come together. What is that vision of the Democratic governors of this country? And how do we execute it together? You know, the best gifts feel like they were picked out just for you.

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So you've nominated this is just the most preposterous nomination like on its face. And this person is a weekend talk show host in his personal life to the total disaster. He's shown horrible judgment at every step of his life. The idea that he's running the military is ridiculous. But specifically, I can perspective that you have being a veteran, having a daughter in service, he's spoken out against women in combat, women in the military. And so I just I'm wondering what your reactions are to the nomination and to his past statements about women in the military.

It's such an incredible slap in the face to every woman who has served. You know, I've spoken to friends of mine I graduated from the Naval Academy with. I've spoken to Marine Corps veterans and aviators. You know, I've spoken to women who work closely with like the Lioness squads, who were the squads that helped clear homes and got valuable intelligence information from the women in the homes that served.

that they were clearing. I mean, I've spoken to so many people and I think until now,

this nomination, there was this sense that things were on such strong ground. I mean, we've had, you know, from my class, the first female commanding officer of an aircraft carrier. We now have the first female superintendent, the first female chief of naval operations. And all of that tracks back to when I graduated from the academy 30 years ago. And the combat restrictions on ships and aircraft were lifted.

Because you can't fully participate in the military as somebody who's going to be competitive if you don't go into combat, if you don't go on a combatant ship, if you don't go into combat aircraft, if you aren't on the ground in combat. And by the way, this idea that somehow...

combat is like trench warfare and here's the combat line for the men and the women are back there as the nurses. I mean, that is so antiquated. The way we fight today is so different from that. And combat is sort of these combatant roles are enmeshed in so many different ways in so many different positions. So, you know, we go from when I was at the Naval Academy to the chief of naval operations, who was a submariner.

When someone stood up at a brigade meeting and stood up and said, when are you going to let women on submarines? And he derisively said, not in my lifetime, to a standing ovation to actually the USS New Jersey being the first fast attack purpose built sub to have women on board.

That felt to me like, wow, such a momentous thing. And yes, I am very proud it's named the USS New Jersey. So that's such movement and progress. And when you see everything, I was speaking to somebody who was telling me at the Naval Academy, some of the women there are

are so physically fit and in such great shape and such leaders that some of the men there say, Oh, I'm going to go work out with her because she's going to help me get in shape. Like I want to be in six shapes. So she's a beast. I'm going to go do that kind of thing. And so, you know, we're seeing such great leadership, such great opportunities, such, such exciting stuff going on in our force. And that is how we have a ready for us. And to see somebody, um,

who just sees women in the role of, as I guess he said at one of his jobs, which he was, of course, let go from, party girls or not party girls, who has credible assault allegations, who had to be carried out of a group team meeting and

And by the way, the group team meeting at, I think, in his leadership was taking place at a strip club because of his intoxication. You know, you're just looking at somebody. Why? Why?

Why? Like, it just feels like such a really an F you to women. It's like I am putting this particular person up for this role because I just want to, you know, I just want to show how little I respect the service of women. I just want it to be clear to everyone that I, you know, totally feel this disregard for women. That's what it feels like. It feels like a gut punch.

Yeah. And it's a disfavor for everybody. I mean, I don't know what while we're taping this, Pete Hanks has mommy is currently on Fox and Friends trying to walk back an email she sent where she called him an abuser of women. It's humiliating. Isn't this a just humiliating? Could you imagine being a, you know, a general, a three star, a four star and you have to go report to this guy?

This is preposterous. There are 3 million people that he would be in charge of in the Department of Defense. I guess it's got to be the most preposterous nomination in the history of the country. You know, this is to their credit. I mean, this is why I'm so impressed often with people who join our military, because there is something very much in the line of public service about it. You don't join the military because you're going to get rich.

You don't join the military to make a million dollars. You, in fact, join the military to do some really grueling work for some really bad pay and some really yucky places. Right. But you do it because you have this sense of pride and you do it because you want to protect people, because you want to protect the nation, because you want to protect our values, because you care about the Constitution. And so.

I will tell you, I have not heard one person in the military say, oh, I don't want Pete Hegseth to be there because it would be humiliating and degrading to report to him. It certainly would. No, it would. Let's be clear. However, what I hear is their deep fear for the security of the nation. So if he is intoxicated and

you know, we're talking about whether or not Russia has just launched a nuke or what's going on in Taiwan in the middle of the night, like, or, you know, a ship being attacked in the Straits of Hormuz, who's making decisions then? And oh, by the way,

I have been in the situation room to talk about concerns I've had under a Trump administration with the president not reading his presidential briefing book. The excuse for not addressing something was, oh, he didn't read it.

So who's in charge here of our national security? Who's in charge of our defense? Who's making those decisions and who's getting in the president's ear to make these decisions? And if it's Pete Hegseth, I think we're all in a great deal of trouble.

We've been to that. All right. I guess it's official now, a very narrow House majority because of the victory in the last California seat. New Congressman Gray, your new colleague, a Democrat, means it's a 220 to 215 House majority for Republicans. Democrats picked up one seat, but several Republicans will be gone for a few months because they're replacing them. There's two Florida seats in particular aren't going to have special elections until April. So they'll have literally one or two seats replaced.

I just wonder how you think about that in the House. Like, it's going to be very challenging for the Republicans to get anything done. Should the Democrats just be letting them die on the vine, figuring it out themselves? Should you be recruiting Mike Lawler or some of these guys to try to, you know, create some gang of whatever in the middle? How are you thinking about navigating this situation?

It's so, I mean, should we? Maybe yes, right? Maybe the answer should be let them die on the vine, show the nation what true...

Republican majority actually looks like if left to their own devices. It's just not how we're built, right? Like I can't sit there and watch somebody take our country down because it's not a zero sum game. Maybe it should be. Maybe I should think of it as a zero sum game. Republicans lose, Democrats win. I don't. We all lose, right?

If the House of Representatives isn't functioning in any way, shape or form, we all lose. We have to keep the government open. We have to engage in that, too. Are you sure? Are you sure? Well, I mean, I'm already frustrated. It sounds like we're going to have a continuing resolution. So first of all, that's just...

you know, when you come from the armed services world and the national security world, that is such a huge waste of money at the very least for the Department of Defense. You can't have new start programs. You can't continue some of the ongoing programs to restart them once the new budget gets passed is a huge cost. And we're doing all this as we're desperately trying to innovate and trying to meet the challenges of a really complicated world. So it's just a really horrible way to run a railroad. But where we're at is, you

you know, we are now, you know, we're going to see Republicans with some, some reconciliation bills, some bites at the apple of just having passing huge pieces of legislation through the Senate with a simple majority. We're really putting a lot of ability to get an agenda done in their hands. So just kind of,

you know, not engaging or letting them fail, I think would really be a disservice. I think it would allow them to run with a very bad agenda. I think failing is maybe part of the agenda of some in the Republican Party, meaning that they don't like government and they just sort of want government to implode. So allowing that to happen would just seem to meet some of the agenda on the far right.

But then the question is, what do we do? You know, how do we keep moving forward in a way that keeps the country running and, you know, tries to block as much of a bad agenda as possible? And that's a tough one. I mean, it's really tough. You know, I go back and forth.

I didn't enter Congress to enter into the least productive Congress in the history of the nation. Right. That was not my agenda. I told you I'm an action oriented person. I think your agenda for this year should be trying to beat that record. Well, that's the other side. Right. Like I'm like, well, but if they're unproductive, at least they're not getting a really incredibly bad agenda passed.

past that's going to, you know, punish women and, and, you know, roll back environmental protections in the wake of climate change and, you know, defund some of the infrastructure programs that are so important to roads and bridges and tunnels, etc. So, yes, but it's going to be a really delicate balance. I have to say that Hakeem Jeffries, I think, has been masterful for the last Congress at trying to navigate through these landmines and trying to keep

pressure on the speaker for the Democratic agenda, even in a Republican majority. And I think, you know, we'll continue to press forward on that. All right, real quick, I got to ask you about the Hunter pardon. Do you have any thoughts about that you want to share? You know, here we have a Trump administration that is purporting to go after political enemies and

And so you're, you know, it's not like we're doing this or the president's looking at this in a vacuum and what might be coming and might the justice system really function well in the future with Kash Patel as the head of the FBI, for example. And yet, at the same time, it does just undermine the credibility and faith in the Justice Department and faith in our leaders. And so I look at this and this is why it just seems like

We need a new generation of leaders. We need a fresh perspective. We need people who are committed to public service and who are going to put the country first and going to relentlessly advocate for people and advocate for our institutions so people can have faith in them. And so this flies in the face of all of that.

That's why I think people are just looking at our government and saying kind of a pox on all their houses. This is just nobody's credible, nobody's trustworthy, nobody stands by their word, nobody does what they say they're going to do. And

And again, it's why I just keep going forward, trying to rebuild that faith and that credibility, committing to serve people and then doing it. And just kind of again and again and again and trying to build that faith back for people. Marking you down as in, I get it, but... Fair enough, fair enough. Let's move on. All right, my final question. Very excited about this one. I don't know if you've seen this.

J.D. Vance's blog from 2005. Do you have any reading of J.D. Vance's 2005 blog from your spare time? You'll be surprised to hear no, I've not. Well, he wrote about an emotional day where he felt more like a female than he ever has or will. And he explains that it happened when he was watching the movie Garden State and that he can no longer watch it because New Jersey's landscape is so much like Ohio's and the music is so relevant to my life right now.

So I'm wondering if you and JD have ever bonded over the movie The Garden State and if you have a Garden State soundtrack song or memory that you'd like to share. Wow. Wow. This is why when you said you had a surprise question for me at the end, I knew to dread it. My instincts were correct.

I have not watched Garden State in many moons. I have fond memories of it. It did hit a chord. I didn't really genderize the chord it hit necessarily. But now I feel like I have to, at a minimum, I may not commit to re-watching it right this second, but at a minimum, I'm going to put that playlist on Spotify. So I'll get back to you. I'll get back to you on that one.

Yeah, go put that Spotify playlist on. There's some good ones. I was listening to it this morning and I was like, oh, two shins tracks. Anyway, it's a good playlist. It was a moment for us, for us elder millennials. All right, Mikey Sherrill, good luck in the governor's race. Please keep us posted. And let's keep an open dialogue on how much we should be given to the Republicans over there in the house. Sounds good. Thanks so much. All right.

We'll see you soon. Have a great day. Actually, really quick. Yes. Give us your website. Oh. Give us your website. www.mikeysherrill.com. There it is. Easy. Up next, I got a mailbag for you. I'll stick around. How many people in the world would you guess have been forced to flee their homes? A million? Five million? Ten? What if I told you the number was 122.6 million? If that were a country, it would be the sixth largest in the world. Every

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It's a great mission. I've been talking about this for a while now. I've been moved, actually, to receive a couple emails from people who donated to JRS as a result of this. It's something that I really appreciate. It is a mission that I'm aligned with. The refugee mission is something that has been important to me for a long time. I volunteered for refugee groups at our wedding. We asked people to donate to refugee groups in lieu of gifts.

I think their point about staying places that are not, you know, where the hot fad is on social media is super important. There are a lot of displaced people that are not in, you know, whatever the hotspot of the moment is on Instagram. And, you know, the Jebbies are great. So I say every time when I read this, I have some issues with the Catholics, but the Jebbies I love. And they're really important to my formation as a man. And I'm happy to help give back a little bit to their effort.

So you want to do something good today? It's been a rough few weeks and I fear that that rough few weeks is going to lead to a rough few years for displaced people around the world. So go visit JRS USA online, read some of the stories about their work, and then make a donation or look at other ways of supporting their work like advocacy or volunteering. To check them out and show the bulwark sent you, visit JRSUSA.org slash bulwark. That's JRSUSA.org slash bulwark.

All right, y'all, it is mailbag time. If you have a question, email bulwarkpodcast at thebulwark.com. I also enjoy the life advice questions. That's none of these that are coming up here. But, you know, if you have something you need a tip on or need a little advice for.

Happy to weigh in. I mean, you know, who else would you turn to for advice besides me? All right, let's start here. Aaron in Florida. Who has disappointed you more this year, the American electorate or your LSU Tigers and Brian Kelly? Got to say the American electorate. I still got faith. I still got faith in the LSU Tigers. I think that they will turn around. 8-4. This felt like an 8-14 this year. We've got two questions. One from...

Alok, I hope I'm pronouncing that right. And another from Andrew in San Francisco. It's basically the same question. Are there any opportunities for someone mid-career with limited political background to pivot into campaigns?

I don't mind pay or status cuts. However, I don't know if or how I can break into that world at this point. Andrew's version of that question was he's on the cusp of turning 40 and contemplating a career change. Campaign politics is always something that's fascinated him. His dream job is a political strategist, but he worries it's too late to make such a drastic change. So I'd say this.

You know, the later it goes, the more drastic a change it is. I just think we can be honest about that. James Carville didn't win his first race until he was 42. So there you go. Hope springs eternal for everybody. I'd say definitely for people in their late 20s or 30s who are willing to take a pay cut and work their ass off.

There are opportunities in campaigns, particularly out in America. This is not really the best moment probably to sign up for a campaign, December 4th, right after a big election. But as you look to our guest today, Mikey Sherrill, she's going to have a big campaign team in New Jersey. She has got five opponents, so they need a lot of staff in New Jersey if you happen to live there. Abigail Spanberger in Virginia is another friend of the pod's got to run in 2025 if you live in Virginia.

If not, you're going to head to 2026. But the thing that I think people don't realize is campaign jobs out in America, particularly in

you know, whatever, less desirable places, either because it's not a top race or because, you know, people don't want to move there. Campaign jobs are gettable, especially if you're going to demonstrate that you'll work hard, that you'll do whatever it takes, that you'll do annoying stuff. I mean, God, my early campaign jobs were doing phone banks, driving candidates around and real mundane stuff. So if your ego does not get in the way and you're happy to do that, particularly at a local level,

My observation is you can move up the chain at the local level. There's not a ton of competition, you know, particularly not in these biggest states might be a little different in Wisconsin or, you know, New Hampshire, like where they've got a lot of campaigns happening because it's a swing state or because an early primary state, but a lot of these other places are,

If you're competent, if you're willing to work hard, you can do it. Happy to be helpful. Shoot me an email. Zach, Nolan native now in DC. What made you move to New Orleans? Well, A, we love New Orleans. I got married here. My college besties are from Baton Rouge and New Orleans, which explains my LSU fandom and my love of this city. It's an amazing city. And so when we look at places to move, we've always wanted to move here. So it's been on the list. But

But basically, the impetus was we're living in California during the pandemic. Pandemic ends. And both me and my husband have to go to D.C. and New York. I guess me, New York, him, D.C. A fair amount. And, you know, we're on these red-eye flights that were pretty annoying. And it was too long away from the kid. I just didn't want to waste days on airplanes for no reason. And so we made a little list of things that were our priorities for places we wanted to live. We would like to have had friends with kids there, friends or family with kids.

We would like it to be easy to leave in the morning and get to D.C. or New York and maybe even get back that same day or be able to be back the next day very easily. We'd like there to be black people because we adopted Toulouse, who's black, and I didn't want her to be the only black kid in the classroom. And the little bonus, little lanyap, as we say down here, was I didn't really want to have winter.

After living in California, it's going to be tough to go back to winter. Really, the last three points made Denver a pretty tough call because the Denver airport sucks. And getting to the East Coast was going to also be terrible for Denver. Diversity, not exactly the best, though. That's, I think, changing a little bit. And then, you know, winter goes till April. So, New Orleans is the only place that checked all four boxes. We couldn't be happier.

It's been so great. Everybody's been so welcoming. Couldn't recommend it more. Just met an empty nester yesterday who is a Bollard podcast listener. Hey, what's up? I moved down here and she felt the same way. So if you're an empty nester looking for someplace warm and spirited, culture filled to live, come on down. Catherine asked, you've mentioned a few times you love to read fiction and I was hoping you'd offer some book recs. Reading Demon Copperhead right now. It is great.

That's great. I'm way behind on this, but it's excellent. I was visiting family in-laws in West Virginia, and this is based in the kind of part of Virginia, Western Virginia, that has a lot of cultural similarities to West Virginia. And so I felt like it was in theme to do it. Almost done.

I mean, it tugs your heartstrings. It's rough, but I kind of like to wallow in sad fiction. Speaking of which, same as it ever was, it's a book I recently read that was wonderful. It was recommended by former podcast guest Jennifer Sr.,

You should go listen to the interview I did with her, by the way. Pulitzer Prize winner. She's amazing. I think it was around 4th of July this year, if you're a new podcast listener. Evergreen, off the news interview about her stories that she's written. Jen is awesome. And so is Same As It Ever Was is a book. To kind of remember what I've liked recently, I popped on my little Goodreads. Homegoing and Long Division were my last two five out of five star books.

Love both of those. Gay fiction. I love gay fiction. Here's a couple that nobody ever talks about. If you look for some deep cuts, Three Junes and Guapa are two of my faves. I've got a special shelf at home reserved only for Didion and Baldwin. So maybe we can do a Didion and Baldwin mailbag at some point in the future. So hope some of those recs will

warm your warm your soul uh over the holidays jim asked how did dems become cool again dem used to be cool under clinton and obama and now we're seeing his debbie downers this is i i think this is a huge problem and it seems silly and it and it seems kind of dumb that it has to matter whether somebody's cool or not but is there a better explanation besides inflation for

for why Dems did so poorly among folks that don't pay attention to politics, other than they seem uncool and the Republican propaganda machine is more effective. I don't think so. And I think those are two key sub elements of what is happening here. And I think it's being part of the counterculture is important. Like getting people excited about something is important. I think that there's a chance for Democrats to do that in the Trump years if they don't go the schoolmarm route.

And I think finding people that want to focus on how the Republicans are dangerous. Yes. They're extreme. Yes. They're also lame. They're lame. And, um, you know, the little weird hit, I think got a lot of Democrats excited, but I don't know that it worked really for a lot of casuals. And I think that I was saying this during the campaign elevating Mike Johnson, uh,

elevating some of these other guys. I just, there would not have been a cult around Ted Cruz. There just wouldn't have been. We all know this. There would not have been a cult around Ted Cruz in the way that there is about Trump. There would not have, like, there would not have been a group of people at MMA in an MMA fight, like, broing down with Ted Cruz. Like, you can't bro down with Ted Cruz.

And so Democrats have to elevate the lame Republicans again. And Democrats have to be more chill. I want to talk about this. I got an interview coming up. I got two interviews coming up, actually. They're going to get into this a little deeper, one with a Democratic strategist and one with one of my favorite commentators. So there'll be more to come on this. But I think that it's something to think about if you're a Democratic politician looking at 2028. All right, here's the last one.

I got to do one more thing about Hunter. Sorry, guys. If you don't want to listen to it, you can fast forward to the end and enjoy the Garden State soundtrack. I got several mailbag requests on this point. That's like, you would have pardoned your kid, right? You would have pardoned your kid. And that's an interesting question, actually, for people who care about this enough to think about it. Because this is like a flip way to handle that, right? That's like, well, anybody would have pardoned their kid. Sure. And we don't really actually think about it. Like, well, it's just like, that's like a truism.

There's a flip way on the inverse. I saw some like conservatives in the inverse saying, no, actually it doesn't help troubled children to just bail them out all the time. So there's a flip way to take it on the other side.

There's a tongue in cheek element to this, but I also want to just, I like to do when the Republicans do crazy stuff, when they do conspiracies, I like to say, let's actually just walk through the conspiracy and pretend it's real. Let's just take it seriously. Let's take it seriously for a second. Because I think when you do that, it reveals something. And so I want to take this thought seriously. Would I have pardoned my child if I was in Joe Biden's shoes?

Like, obviously, everybody has a line, right? You wouldn't pardon your pedophile child. You wouldn't pardon a child that killed somebody. I don't think, probably, depending on the circumstances. So, like, let's go through it. What's the line? In this situation, I'm an 82-year-old president. That doesn't seem very realistic. So, maybe I'm an 82-year-old governor. How about that? Who the hell knows, right? Life is long. I don't plan on running for office. But the future is a foreign land, as is the past.

So in this case, I somehow am a 82-year-old governor leaving office. For this hypothetical to work, I also have to have adopted a second child, I guess, at some point in the future. So let's just pretend that happened. My first child that I have right now, so I'm putting her in my mind's eye, becomes a crack cocaine addict, which I have empathy for. I have friends that have dealt with addiction. So, you know, there are ways that obviously we deal with that as a family.

They don't pay back taxes for years, a decade, I think, actually. They don't pay rent either. They become a total deadbeat, try to barter with their art, art that is paid for by my supporters, I guess. Maybe some of you, maybe some of you listeners would be paying for my kids' art in this case in the future because you've just become diehard fans of me. They also make some money by trading on my name with some do-nothing jobs with shady foreign...

kind of companies and they make money that way. And they kind of lie about me and kind of exaggerate their access and kind of use me to make money. And despite that, despite the fact that they make millions doing that, they still don't, don't pay that rent or their taxes. It's okay. So in that situation, this is, this is where we're at. Then around all this time, my other child who's grown and has a family of their own dies tragically.

And that's tough, you know, I'm thinking about that. And then just like what that would be like. It's kind of unimaginable, really. And so you have some sympathy there. And then you think about the fact that my surviving child has an affair with my deceased child's spouse and gets them into crack cocaine as well. And then during that affair, they cheat on my dead child's spouse with a stripper and have the stripper's child

but then decide they don't want to parent that child. And after actually becoming sober, getting clean, thank God, they're still taken to court where they try to pretend like it's not their child and are forced to pay alimony via a judge. Okay. Around that time, they lose a computer that results in a massively embarrassing news story for me.

and extremely embarrassing stuff about themselves and kind of a weird butterfly flapping its wings since this computer results in one of the world's richest and douchiest people taking over a social media platform and weaponizing that platform against me. At some point during all this, my child decides to get into guns because that's really what they need. It's like a lot of high-powered weaponry. They can't afford taxes or rent or child support, but they need a Glock. And in order to get the gun, they lie on gun forms and break some laws. This leads to some nonviolent gun crimes.

And now here I am, 82 years old. I'm leaving office that I had won running on a rule of law and integrity platform. Obviously, it's Louisiana. So my predecessor was corrupt. And that predecessor, obviously, because it's Louisiana, avoids jail and is coming back into office and is planning to target my family. What would I do in that circumstance? This is going to sound tongue in cheek, but I really thought about it. I sat on the couch and thought about it for like 10 minutes. I really thought about it. I thought about that life trajectory.

I thought about my kid and her going through all of that. And I thought about her being 54 years old when I had to make the decision. Not really a kid. It flummoxed me. In the end, I decided that I would have pardoned her. So the haters, you got me on that one, I guess. But I don't think I'd be very sanctimonious about it in the pardoning statement.

And I think it's part of my deal with the kid. It's part of the pardon deal that I have with my own child. They would have to parent their fucking child too. I think that'd be one thing that I'd do and make sure I can have a relationship with my grandchild. And I think I wouldn't be upset at any supporter of mine who followed me for years running on a campaign of integrity and decency and following the rule of law who got upset that I let them down. I think I'd understand why they would be upset. So,

There you go. A little something for everybody. It's a tough one. It's a tough one. Pretending like it's not, I think is silly. Pretending like it's a huge win for Joe Biden or for me, hypothetical future me, it's silly. It is what it is. It's a very tough situation we're in. And I think it's important that we grapple with all this stuff seriously because we're going to have many other tough situations ahead. Guys, I'll be back here tomorrow.

Enjoy the sounds of the Garden State soundtrack. Taking it home. And we'll see you back here tomorrow. Peace. I think I'm the one animal just over for a crown. Get down my throne. At long last it's crushed. It's colossal masses. But they're not. Intermittents of my own. That's it. I found something gathering.

I'm the fact you're dead again I'm sick and shit Are the icy heights that contain all the reason It's a luscious mix of words and tricks That let us back when we know we should fall On rocks I drowned, I went with stout Where's the road from now on? Hold your glass up Never betray the way you want to

The Bullwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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