Jon Favreau: Understanding the Assignment
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Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I'm pumped to be here today with Barack Obama's former head speechwriter, co-author of the book Democracy or Else, How to Save America in 10 Easy Steps, and the host of a niche political podcast you may have heard of, Pod Save America. John Favreau, what's happening, my man? Hey, man. Thanks for having me on. Big

Big fan. Long time listener. Yeah, we understand you're especially a fan of Mondays with Bill Kristol and that you're just like waiting for the Bill Kristol apps to drop. That's what I've heard. I do all the Bulwark podcasts. I'm a subscriber. I listen to you every day. I listen to the next level. This is getting too much. This is getting too much. All right. The Bill Kristol compliments were good enough. I'm getting uncomfortable now. We have something else in common. I think at least. And I'm going to borrow a few words from...

both Barack Obama, your former boss in last night's speech, and the colonel in Boogie Nights. I don't know if he was intentionally making a reference to the colonel in Boogie Nights when he said this, but...

I'm a man that likes simple pleasures. I like butter in my ass and lollipops in my mouth and a card game with friends and convention speeches that deliver a fucking message that helps the nominee win. That's all I'm looking for. A simple pleasure. And it seems like we got that. We did get that. We did get that. That's nice. I feel like that shouldn't be hard. Me too. For some reason, it is hard for people. I don't understand. You've got to go into these things with...

goal in mind. What is your goal? Who's the audience and what's the goal? And at the Democratic Convention, the audience is anyone who hasn't made up their mind yet. And the goal is to elect fucking Kamala Harris. I've got to interrupt though. I've got to interrupt. Now you're the professional speechwriter who's had success unlike me. But I've been told that actually the goal was to make

people that are obsessive Pod Save America listeners and members of the Pod Save America Plus Discord very happy. Is that not the goal of the speeches? Isn't it not to appeal to like democratic super fans? Because I was told that was the goal. Is that wrong? I will say, fortunately, our listeners and our community, they get the assignment.

I'm like randos on Twitter. No, they get the assignment. But yes, the goal is not to send a thrill up the leg of people who are already going to vote for Kamala Harris and Tim Walz and go out and volunteer. Okay, but they did manage to do both last night, which is pretty good. I want to talk about Doug and your former boss and Michelle. But just like big picture, since this is your business, or it was your business, if one of these guys calls you, you're sitting down, you have a blank piece of paper in front of you, what really are you trying to do?

What's the main objective here? Because there are a couple of potential objectives, right? Like building up Kamala, tearing down Trump, having something that goes viral on TikTok, being nice to the current president. There are many different theories on what you could do. What's your main objective? It depends on who you are, who the speaker is, and what the context of the race is. I do think that

If it was still Biden-Trump, then Biden's job Thursday night would be much different than Kamala's job because Kamala has the added need to define herself, reintroduce herself to the country, talk about her plans more, right? And Biden probably would have just

you know, just kick the shit out of Trump for 50 minutes. But I was looking back at when we were working on Obama's speech, I was looking back at the 2008 convention speech that he gave. And I was in Denver. Yeah. In Denver, when you're the nominee, there's like a lot of business to get done. The things you just mentioned, like you have to define yourself, talk about your plans, talk about your opponent and

And it can be very State of the Union-esque in the worst possible way, unless you also make sure that it is a tight speech and it has enough rhetoric to get people in the crowd going and also inspire people at home. So there's a lot of different objectives in these speeches, which is why I think they are quite difficult to write. They're probably, I think, the hardest speeches to write after the State of the Union address, which is

just a monster to write and not that fun and never a great speech at all. So those are the objectives. And you're trying to persuade people. The point of every single speech is persuasion. You are trying to get people to take an action they otherwise wouldn't have taken. That is like the main purpose of a speech. I thought that Michelle did that the best last night. Yeah.

She crushed it. Yeah, it was not State of the Union-y at all. She understood the assignment. That's our theme of the day, I guess, understanding the assignment. And the number one assignment for her, in addition to just kind of pulling on the heartstrings and having the speech had a little depth. It wasn't political pablum, right? It was like you could tell she was feeling it, talking about her mother, talking about this grief we all feel about like the country.

at some times and like how you can get down about that. I liked that she started with that, that Kamala's mother and the urging to do something, but like her main job was to build up the nominee of the party. And I think that she did it very well. And I noticed this morning on her social media, there's only one clip from her speech last night and I want to play it. Kamala Harris is more than ready for this moment. She is one of the most qualified people ever to seek the office of the presidency.

And she is one of the most dignified. A tribute to her mother, to my mother, and to your mother too. The embodiment of the stories we tell ourselves about this country. Her story is your story. It's my story. It's the story of the vast majority of Americans trying to build a better life.

Look, Kamala knows, like we do, that regardless of where you come from, what you look like, who you love, how you worship, or what's in your bank account, we all deserve the opportunity to build a decent life. All of our contributions deserve to be accepted and valued because no one has a monopoly on what it means to be an American. No one.

Damn. It's good stuff. I think one of the reasons she is an incredibly effective speaker in politics is because she hates politics. She genuinely doesn't like politics. And so when she speaks in a political setting, it is because she feels in her gut so strongly that it is important to do so. And she also, like, she has become close with Kamala. They've become, like, good friends over the last several years. And so I think she really feels this one.

But I think what she was trying to do there is Donald Trump, MAGA, their whole thing is to otherize people, to say that like we're real. And, you know, Obama hit this in his speech as well. Like we're real Americans and anyone who doesn't support us, they are real.

either not from here or not like us or different, or you should be suspicious of them. And what both of the Obamas have always tried to do and what Michelle did incredibly effectively there is to say, no, no, no, no, no. We're

we're more closely connected to the American story than he is, right? She has this line about the affirmative action of generational wealth, which I thought was like the all-time convention line. In that whole riff, she sort of painted Trump as this guy who's like, he's had everything handed to him. Like when he breaks the rules, he gets away with it. He gets to ride up the escalator when he faces a big challenge. And like the rest of us, whether you're Black or

white, poor, middle-class, wherever you're from in the country. Like we don't get to do that. We have to work hard. So it's just, it's like a fusion of economic populism and patriotism, which I think is incredibly effective and appealing to the broadest part of the electorate. Yeah. The affirmative action of generational wealth is like a line that people are going to be stealing for a long time. And it's also so good because it makes Trump so small. Yes. And she just made him so small that,

in the speech last night, right? She mentioned that one time. She mentions it one time, but just the subtle digs throughout. That is something that I've been noticing throughout the convention, but also for the last however many years, is there is this tendency for anti-Trump politicians to just go after the cheapest anti-Trump applause line.

And they can get like pretty nasty. And there's this like the nastier you get, you know, the more anti-Trump you are. And that's how you like burnish your credentials as a Democrat or an anti-Trump politician. And, you know, they go back and they find quotes that he said and things that only like terminally online people like us remember about Trump. And none of that to me is as devastating to Trump as what Michelle Obama did last night,

barely mentioning his name.

Because what she did is she placed him outside of the American story and outside of the values we all hold dear as a country. And she also was talking about him without talking about him directly, which is also a pet peeve I have about politics and political speeches. It's like everyone has sort of lost the art of subtlety. It's like we're just hammering people over the head. We got it. Drumpf.

There's a way to do it that is devastating and without being too obvious, you know? Yeah. And back to the common, and I just think that contrast of she's tearing him down, make him feel small. Like he got where he was because he had that escalator up the mountain, which, which, you know, which regular people don't get. He got where he was because of the affirmative action of generational wealth. He might be realizing that he's applying for a black job, like all that stuff just kind of diminishes him. And then the Kamala part of her remarks, um,

And it is the thing that I felt has been the most missing for maybe every... I missed some of the speakers, so maybe there have been some of the more personal, some of the smaller speakers, but a lot of the politician speakers. Let's just put it like that. Because they've been talking about Kamala...

in the way that I would talk about her. Like I've met her one time. You know what I mean? I just, I don't know. I can't speak to her leadership traits, right? Besides what I see on TV, et cetera. And presumably all of these people like know her, right? And the American people don't know her yet. And so like when you're talking about how this convention is different from a speech writing standpoint than what a Biden convention would be, it's like you have this huge opportunity to introduce her, to tell new things about her.

And I felt like Michelle did that by talking about her origin story and her mother and how she gets inspired by her mother and then how we've seen that reflected in her life. And I think that was the building her up while making Trump feel small. No, it's incredibly important to do that. I mean...

And, you know, Obama tried to do it a few times in his speech to just like personal connections and not just like I know her and she's great, but like people who've worked with her. We interviewed LaFonza Butler, a senator from California who was very close to Kamala and known her for 15 years, advised her in 2020 on Pod Save America interview.

Most of my questions to her were just like, what's she like? What should the country know about her that we don't already know? Because we've never been in a situation before like this where the Democratic nominee for president with just, you know, a couple months to go is...

well known as a vice president, but like not well known in terms of like their values, what they've done, stories about them, et cetera. It should be one of the main goals of the whole convention. Yes. You know, I'm sure. I mean, Kamala will do that for sure on Thursday night. I know she'll talk like a lot about her story and well, I'm sure we'll talk about Doug. Doug did that very well too. And some of the people who've known her personally, but you're right. Like I thought on Monday night that Biden would, uh,

at least tell some stories about like working with her in the White House over the last four years. I was surprised that he didn't do that. I've gone to a funeral recently where the eulogy was given by the pastor, you know, and like you could tell the pastor didn't really know the person. And I'm like, that's not the eulogy I want. Obviously, this is the opposite of that. It's not a eulogy. It's a build up. I don't want a pastor that doesn't know her that just like is going through a checklist, like good family person, you know, like give me some color. Let me learn about her. And Doug just did that so great last night.

I mean, you could have imagined a Doug speech that was, you know, about, right. I don't know his fight against anti-Semitism, which is important. You know, you can imagine a Doug speech. It's about like that, but he was just like, no, I'm going to tell about our first date. I like that.

I had heard, I think someone somewhere was previewing before Doug's speech that it was going to be like an entire speech about anti-Semitism. And again, I agree that's important. I'm like really glad he's taking that on. But I was like, the whole point of his speech has to be to personalize her, you know? And he did it in such a charming, humble way. And also, I think that, you know, part of Trump's shtick is this, you know, fucking...

awful version of masculinity. And I think between Doug and Tim Walls, it's like we're seeing this cycle, sort of this other version of masculinity that's like nice guys who are like, okay, being plus ones to their like really strong, successful wives, which is just like such a great image to project and a good way to counter Trump's bullshit. Yeah. I also just think,

that, again, just because of the shallow knowledge a lot of people have about Kamala, and even I am an obsessive. If you asked me last week, when did Doug and Kamala get together? How old were the kids? I think I would have been like, I'm not sure, actually. You know what I mean? So I think that it was really a nice way to paint a story of her that comes into this family. Like,

does a mom role is supportive is taking calls from Ella. Like they're already teenagers, but like, you know, it's still, you know, happens in a way that is that like shows that somebody who actually like,

cares about other people and stuff. You know what I mean? Like, I just thought that was a nice way into her story that again, like is what you should be doing at a convention. Like, that's cool. Like now we know that about her, you know? Yep. It's the whole point. That's the whole point. Okay. We're going to keep going on this, on this theme because Barack Obama mostly stuck to the whole point of the convention with a little, with a little bonus, a little cherry on top for me. Let's take a listen to Barack's comments about Donald Trump. The people who will decide this election are

are asking a very simple question: Who will fight for me? Who's thinking about my future? About my children's future? About our future together? One thing is for certain: Donald Trump is not losing sleep over that question. Here's a 78-year-old billionaire who has not stopped whining about his problems since he rode down his golden escalator nine years ago.

It has been a constant stream of gripes and grievances that's actually been getting worse now that he's afraid of losing to Kamala. There's the childish nicknames, the crazy conspiracy theories, this weird obsession with crowd sizes. Yeah.

The crowd starts to cheer very loudly there. It might not fully take on audio. The video people noticed the loud cheer happens when he does what appears to be a small cock sign after he talks about the small crowd sizes. I know you worked on the speech. Was that your ad? I was stunned that he did that. I

It's funny. I'll give you a little of the backstory. Please. We've been going through the Trump section, what he's going to say about Trump, and most of that was led by him. That's how he wanted to frame it. And we had a couple different examples in there of Trump's whining. For a while, we had 2 a.m. social media tirades, and that was cut for time. And the one thing that Obama kept adding back into the speech was the crowd size thing. Yeah.

And I didn't want to take it out just because it was like, I didn't like it, but I was just like, oh, you know, we're trying to get it tight and for time, stuff like that. And in the last round of edits, he put it back in. But I was like, okay, maybe he's just, this is like a funny thing that he wants to joke about. And then when I was watching the speech from the floor and saw him do that, I was like, oh my gosh, this is, wow, very unlike him. Yeah.

Do we think that was part of the plan then or it's just kind of in the moment? I don't know. I could see myself in the moment. He really he hammed it up, though. The argument against it being an accident. The hands get smaller and smaller. And then he kind of pauses and looks at his small hands for a second.

I will tell you that if it was a planned thing, it was planned only in his mind. But he does that sometimes with speeches where he did this with the eulogy and a much more serious note when he's saying amazing grace. He didn't tell you all he was going to say. No, he had said something on the way there. He was like, I,

I might sing if the mood strikes me, but I don't know. I don't think so. Whenever he's like into a speech and he's like feeling the crowd, then he hams it up. Right. Or he, he does something that he wasn't expected to do. So I think that's what happened then. What about just any like other, you know, kind of,

working on speeches in the past kind of just a little guy's locker room talk any history of like chode jokes or anything else that kind of was cut and he likes to talk about lindsey graham's manhood at any point in private or is this honestly nothing else he's not usually he's just not usually like that he doesn't make that joke man no okay well i liked it i know that you know

We're supposed to be serious. The thing that I've always liked about Obama's speech is even when I was opposing him and frankly liked it and was jealous of is he's good at the high low. Yeah. You know, and that you want that in a speech, right? Like you do not have to make a choice between appealing to people's better angels and making fun of assholes. You can do both, you know? And he, he very much approached this from the beginning as,

We had talked about it and we sort of both came to the same conclusion, which is what a lot of people at the convention have. Michelle, everyone else was like, let's make fun of the guy, you know? Like he's full of shit. He's whiny and complaining. Like why are we like trying to put him up there as this like scary strong man? Like we should take him down a few pegs. And so he had wanted to do that from the beginning. The very bulwark part of the speech. Oh yeah, okay. Well, great. Thank you. We were going to get there. The last probably eight minutes or so.

like could have been a monologue that we just post as a bonus episode of the Bulwark podcast. This kind of appeal to caring about people on the other side, about these fundamental values that we all share, that, you know, whether you have a grandfather or an uncle that is from a red state that worked hard and that he also shares those values. And they might be from MAGA and they might say some racist things, but like fundamentally we're a better people than this. And we can, I was just like,

oh man, this could be a Bill Kristol morning shot. So anyway, we have one clip from it. Let's listen. We don't trust each other as much because we don't take the time to know each other. And in that space between us, politicians and algorithms teach us to caricature each other and troll each other and fear each other. But here's the good news, Chicago. All across America, in big cities and small towns, away from all the noise,

The ties that bind us together are still there. We still coach Little League and look out for our elderly neighbors. We still feed the hungry in churches and mosques and synagogues and temples. We share the same pride when our Olympic athletes compete for the gold. Because the vast majority of us do not want to live in a country that's bitter and divided.

We want something better. We want to be better. We want to be better. Yeah. That's right. That's the way to get at Trump, right? Yes. I mean...

I think there is this sort of superficial analysis of Obama's political philosophy, which is like hopey and changey and unity and we're all going to get along. And, you know, Michelle always got shit for like when they go low, we go high. And it always drives me crazy because I think it's all misunderstood, right?

And what he was saying last night is like, yeah, we're going to disagree. We may not solve those disagreements. But it was really a defense of small L liberalism, not in the political partisan sense. And it's this idea that he has been talking a lot over the last year or so about pluralism.

He's wanted to give a pluralism speech, which everyone was like, OK, we maybe we don't call it the pluralism speech, but we get the concept. We'd be happy to host. OK, we'd be happy to co-sponsor that with him. If he wants to do a pluralism speech, let's do it. I'll be in the front row, you know, hooting. You know, the idea that like in a country of like 300 million plus people, like whichever side wins, the other side's not going away. Right.

Right. Like we're going to have to learn to live together. And like the whole point of democracy is, is not to all come to an agreement, but it's also not to all like be at war all the time. Like Donald Trump wants us to be and his version of the Republican party. And so we have to figure out a way to disagree. And you know what he said in that speech is that's not just like on Republicans, right? Like,

That's on us too. And he talked about how like from across the political spectrum, we've come to think that like winning is about like scolding people or shaming people or yelling the other side. And he even uses the examples of like, you know, you have a grandmother or an uncle or a cousin who says something that's like off. You give them grace. You don't yell at them for that. And like, why do we do that to strangers on social media? Why do we do that to other people in politics? Right. Going back to the purpose.

Who are you talking to? Yes. It is the way to get at some of these soft...

I know that there may some progressives or liberals that don't think these people exist, but there are like, there are good people that live in the suburbs, live in the country that are traditionally conservative or Republican that get somewhere in their gut that Donald Trump is bad and that we're better than him. And that they just want to feel heard. Right. And they just like need a nudge to just be like, yep. You know, okay, I'm ready. I'm not, we're not going back. Like might not be a Democrat now, but like at least, uh,

the people that I heard from at this convention, Tim Walls and Kamala Harris and the Obamas, like, recognize, like, I have value and we might disagree on some policies and maybe I'll vote for whoever the hell, you know, next time around. Those people exist. And this is a soft way to speak to them by, like, welcoming them rather than being like,

don't you vote for that bigot? Well, it's that crowd, right? This is the bulwark crowd. This is Sarah's voters that she's talking to in the focus groups. But it's also, and I think a lot of Democrats and progressives might not understand this, but it's the

The very voters that that Biden was having problems with and the Democrats have been having problems with now over the last several years, which are younger black and brown voters who are sporadic voters. So once in a while they vote. Sometimes they don't. And their feeling is they're non ideological.

and they're just like sick of politics. They think it's like a lot of noise and a lot of people just like yelling at each other all the time. And they're not looking for Kumbaya. They're just looking for like, well, why do I care about politics if it doesn't matter to my life? And all these assholes are just like on TV in it for themselves, yelling at each other all the time, whining about shit all the time. And like,

I don't know. The way these people live their lives is they try to get along with their neighbors and their colleagues. And what they want is just like a government that will, I don't know, protect them, help them live a better life, keep them safe, give them a chance. That's all. That's all people want. And so that is a feeling that maybe both, maybe both.

right-leaning independents have, but also a lot of these younger voters and voters of color who just are not showing up in every single election. I thought that Michelle spoke to that group as well very strongly, you know, just about this. It's an empowering. Her message was empowering and practical. That's what they want. Like, not bullshit. Don't bullshit me. Like, I want to feel like this is worth doing and that it's worth doing for me in particular as a young black person or young brown person. One, just since you mentioned it,

on Obama's small liberal speech. I liked this from Sheikha, who started the unpopulist sub stack, who's a friend of the pod, obviously. She wrote this, Barack Obama's speech is the most enlightenment liberalism statement I've heard in a long time. He hit every fundamental note, equal dignity for all, pluralism, toleration for those with different lifestyles, and values, freedom, justice, and compassion for political opponents. It is noteworthy because

There has been a little bit of like loss of that North star among some on the left, right? Like in favor of focusing more on like advancing specific progressive ends versus, you know, focusing on kind of respect for fundamental values. And so it's, I think that's why it's noteworthy for him to like really lean in on it. Yeah. I mean, look, it's also been a, a hobby horse of mine for the last several years. And so you're saying you put that in there. Well,

Well, no, this is what's weird about it. You and Barry are just sitting around, like, going through some enlightenment, going through your hume, you know, looking for a quote. I will tell you this is what's weird about, like, knowing him for so long and writing for him since, like, 2005 is he and I can go, like, months and months without talking to each other. And then when we do, we suddenly both have, like, the same gripes about politics because we just, like, I learned to, like, not, like, write like him but think like him. So it's just, like, who I am now. But...

One thing that he did in a couple places was, you know, he says, like, we've got to respect people who don't look like us, who don't pray like we do, which gets all the liberals and progressives clapping, who don't come from where we come, right? Like that. And who don't believe the same things that we do about politics. Yeah.

And to him and to what democracy should be, that's all the same thing. If we as progressives want to make sure that we treat people equally based on race and gender and sexual orientation and sexual identity, then we also have to treat people the same based on political identity. Like that's the whole point of democracy. You have to include that.

Oh, man. We're just getting so bulwark-pilled over here right now. It's unbelievable. We're on bulwark Viagra on this podcast. I've never been so effusive about Barack Obama. I don't know what's happening right now. There's one other thing we have to talk about while we're just praising Barack Obama. Didn't get cut for time. I was noticing that you were trying to narrow things down, keep it sharp.

Keep it Favreauian. But a lengthy aside about Barack Obama coming out as a Yimby. Dude. And I was cheering. I was standing up on my couch. Build more houses. Get rid of regulations that are stopping people from building. I love that. Why was that in there? That's great. From the beginning. One of the first things he said that he wanted to make sure that was in there. We have to be Yimby?

He didn't say Yimby, but he was, you know, that was the sometimes, sometimes he sounds like me. Sometimes he just sounds like Ezra Klein. Right? Jerusalem Dempsis. We should give Jerusalem Dempsis some love. I think he's been reading The Atlantic. I'm telling you, I think he's been reading Jerusalem. Maybe, probably listening to Ezra. Everyone's listening to Ezra, apparently, according to Semaphore. No, that whole section was him wanting to say, look, we, and he's done this in his speeches when he was a nominee, which is like,

We can't just be tied to like old ideas of the past and also think that we like as Democrats and liberals and progressives, like we have a monopoly on all the ideas and that, you know, we've never done anything wrong. And, you know, originally he wanted this whole thing about like, it's a lot of democratic cities.

that have zoning laws. And I was like, we're not writing zoning laws in the speech. Oh, okay. That was a bad cut. Can I get the draft on that? Can we leak the draft on that to the newsletter for this week? Just so we know that he's out there. He's there. He's there. Yeah. I know. Some mismanagement in democratic cities. Yeah. Oh, boy. Lovett and I were on the floor when he said that, and we started a Yimby chant.

Well, we were near the California delegation and they didn't want to keep going. Looking forward, we've got two nights left. We've got Walls and Kinzinger and Kamala Harris. I'm sure there'll be a couple other speakers that matter, but those are the key three. Don't forget Bill Clinton. What?

Why are we doing this? Can we just whisper about this? Why is Bill Clinton talking? Couldn't they have joint talks? I kind of thought that maybe this was the year where we finally like, you know. And I don't want to not honor him. How about like the Oscars? Instead of talking, you know how the Oscars you get a Lifetime Achievement Award? There's like a montage. It's like the guy from Hope. We go up there and then he gets to walk out on stage. Everybody cheers for him. And then he says thank you and then he leaves. That would be nice.

One thing about this convention is you can tell that most of it was planned when Biden was going to be the nominee.

Yeah. And when Kamala took over, I think that, you know, they, they wanted to like reshape the convention in her image, but I think there's some things that they just couldn't like part of the problem with all of these politicians going up there and going over time and pushing everyone out of prime time. I think it's just like, Oh, they had been invited. And what are you going to do on invite them? Which maybe I would bet that's why. Yes. And Bill Clinton does in his speeches, uh,

He does something that the Obamas don't do that a lot of other speakers don't do, which he explains things. Well, he like he makes arguments and knocks down arguments from the other side in a really like easy to understand way. I think the key tonight that I'm watching for is like, oh, yeah.

Bill Clinton cannot knock Tim Walz out of primetime because his speech is like an hour long. All right, so Walz, just really quick, rapid fire. What do you want from Walz? What are you hoping that he does? What's his main goal? I mean, I think everything that has made people love Tim Walz so far, right? Like I think he should talk about

his, you know, he's going to talk about coaching. He's going to talk about Minnesota. He's going to talk about like rural America. Right. I think he's also going to build up Kamala. Like again, understanding the assignment. I think he'll do that quite well. And I heard you guys talking about this and JVL talking about this, but yeah,

It's the same reason I love Tim Walz, which is he comes from this, the DFL Minnesota tradition. And it is a different brand of democratic politics and liberalism that is much more focused on sort of economic populism and community than it is on a lot of the identity politics that we sometimes get. I do like that. And I think that he can continue that theme where Tim Walz

And just slowly but surely, I'm getting there. It's, you know, it wasn't immediate. So it's happening slowly but surely, one foot at a time. Beto's full-throated endorsement. Yeah.

He was. He was really, yeah. I was like, okay, I must be missing something here. I was like, if Beto's this excited, there's got to be something I'm missing. But the thing I've liked about Walls, or the thing that I've liked the best of all of his rhetoric, which I hope he includes, is how he diminishes Trump in a different way than Michelle, but it's the same objective, which is like, can you imagine this guy having a blizzard?

Can you imagine this guy going on a raft? I like that. Just be like a guy from Mankato who likes to do Mankato stuff and make fun of the fact that Donald Trump doesn't know anything about that. I like that. Michelle Obama and Tim Walz in different ways are like

group participants talking about Donald Trump. I mean, literally, in Barack Obama's case, when he did the leaf blower line, that Donald Trump was like your neighbor. I thought that was the weakest line. I was trying to keep positive. I thought the leaf blower thing was, it didn't land. But you know what? He even knew it didn't land. He paused and he was just like, nope. And then he kept moving. I don't think the leaf blower is going to make it onto the stump in the fall. It came from, I think he got it from, Axelrod's been saying it.

And the reason that Axelrod's been saying it, and Axelrod has said this on TV, so it's not a secret, but it came from an Obama-Trump voter in a focus group. Really? Yes. Annoyingly slow, I got it. You've seen all these focus groups, too. I had been surprised over the last year how many complaints about Trump...

center around just the exhaustion yes right it's just like i am just so tired of this guy he's so annoying this is like tim wallace is like can you imagine thanksgiving dinner yeah with this guy or i don't think he says that about trump but he says like can't we have thanks when he's gone it was like imagine thanksgiving dinner after he's gone it'll just be like a weight off everybody's shoulders yes and it is this like he's just so annoying and in our faces all the time so

So I think Walls will do that. All right. What about Kamala? Okay. Blank page. How much? Her stump, since she has ascended to become the presumptive nominee, has been really tight and really good. Like just freedom, like patriotism, a little bit of her story, contrasts with Trump in and out 20 minutes. And it's been good. Yeah. She adds a line or two, textbook. Her...

kickoff speech in 2019 was in Oakland. And so I went there, looked to Liz, and it was like, it was State of the Union-y. I know that's like our shorthand for bad, right? She felt like she was trying to appeal to every part of the Democratic coalition. Like, here's a little something for the Bernies, and here's a little something for the identity politics crowd, and here's a little economic populism, and here's some women's stuff, and glass ceiling stuff, right?

And it just didn't land. And I think that that's going to be a challenge for this speech. It's going to be a little longer than what she's been doing on the stump. So anyway, I'm wondering how you take that and what you think that she should focus on. First of all, I think now that I look back on it with a few years, I think the 2020 primary brought out the worst in a lot of those candidates. Yeah.

Except Beto, who was fabulous and he just brought out the worst in all of us. Not you and me, but like all of the political media class just didn't recognize what they had when they had it. Honestly, I would say Pete. Pete was who he is, right? Pete hasn't changed at all. Pete was true to himself. God love him. But also like,

and people like Bernie and Warren who are just like, that's who they are. Right. Like that's, they showed up as who they are. I don't know. I think Warren got a little bit off a little bit. Yes. A little bit off of her true North. Well, and because of Bernie, right. And so like some of them were chasing Bernie, some of them were chasing something else. And so it became this like competition. And I think that she fell into that trap.

And she's now unburdened from that, of course. But she does have a lot of work to do. And so this is the tough part when you are the nominee. Most people will give plaudits to some of the other speeches as the best speeches. And it's like, yeah, the reason the other speakers in the primetime can be better is because they don't have the work to do that you have to do as the nominee. But I would expect her to really tell her story.

talk about her family, and then also wrap it in this patriotism that we heard from the Obamas. Like, I think she'll do something similar about her own story. And she's got to talk about her record, right? She's got to highlight the good parts about her record. Does she, though? I guess this was where I was going next. Because that's the one thing that I'm kind of like, I think if I was cutting stuff from time...

I just probably wouldn't deal with it. I just probably would do less. I'd talk more about her, contrast with Trump, and her future vision. And you saw our friend, our good pal Scott Jennings on CNN last time. I don't know if you saw this. I did not. You're not just sitting around Chicago watching CNN post-game analysis? You know. You got friends. You got buyers. You got fans you got to deal with. Well, anyway, I'll tell you what happened on CNN. It was fireworks. Scott was fucking pissed. Like, Scott is like...

they don't even talk about the last four years and like, how are they going to defend it? And like his frustration, you could tell that he's, you can tell that they're frustrated that the Democrats are quote unquote getting away with this. And I think that there's a defense to be had of the, of the last four years that there's totally reasonable and that, that she should do if necessary, but like, why if you don't have to, I guess is my question. Yeah.

This is where I'll put my strictly polling political strategist hat on. Great. Yeah, please. Which is, I think that she should...

do it quickly, the record stuff, and she should highlight the parts of her record that are incredibly popular. So in the Biden administration, that's going to be beating Medicare. We beat Medicare. Prescription drugs. We did. It's going to be the prescription drugs and some of the more popular elements of the Biden administration. But then I think like what really pops in the polling is her work. Prosecutor.

That too, but even more so when she was Attorney General, like the housing settlement. Oh, yeah. And what she did for homeowners, because housing is like a number one issue that no one ever talks about. And she has a great story to tell on it. Except me and Barack Obama. And Jerusalem Dems. That's it.

But she will, I think she'll highlight like her work as prosecutor, her work as DA, her work as AG and a couple of things from the Obama administration. And then we're, we're there. I think you meant Biden administration, but there are already, already a lot of people out there and a lot of conspiracies about how it's been Obama pulling the strings behind the scenes this whole time with Biden. I'm going to get in trouble for that. You're not,

We're getting in trouble. That's going to be on Fox. Jesse Waters. Jesse Waters. Hello, Jesse. I know Jesse Waters is clipping that right now. John Favreau admits that it was Obama behind the scenes. The puppet master was doing it the whole time. Either Jesse Waters or some folks in the Biden administration.

But, but yeah, no, I think. And she doesn't have to go into like too much detail on policy because she did do her economic speech, her policy speech last week. So she can sort of like highlight the most popular stuff and move on. And then I think that it'll be a lot about values and patriotism and some of the themes that we've heard from the convention, you know, from some of the best speakers.

You did it by accident, but we have a couple of conspiracies we have to debunk before we go or affirm. I don't know. Last night on Fox News, Brett Baier was reporting via one of the Fox News reporters that Kamala Harris and Tim Walz were in Milwaukee last night, not at the convention because Joe Biden is so mad at Barack and Michelle Obama that Kamala could not even be in the same room with them for fear of suffering his wrath.

and derailing the entire convention. Do you think that was why she was in Milwaukee last night or do you think it was a different reason than that? I am 100% sure that's not. That's why she was like... Wait a minute, I'm sorry, you're doubting Fox's sources on this? I was extremely impressed by...

considering how Monday night went in terms of the timing and pacing, that what they did Tuesday night where like the roll call is done, California puts her over the top, and then they immediately go live to her and Milwaukee with this big crowd in the place where Trump gave his convention speech. That's like a, that's just such a move. And it's like a real hard thing to pull off. And I think that's why they did it. That was very David Plouffe to me. That's a very...

And General Malley Dillon, who's been on our campaigns too. Yeah, I'm not going to give Plouffe the call on that. Whoever has run an advance over there, that was awesome. Like the timing, and it just looked so good in the Fiserv forum. It was crazy how good it looked. And it was packed. They had the huge Freedom red, white, and blue signs. People with the USA placards were back in Chicago. Yeah.

I mean, I was ready to kind of fly a bald eagle. The advance teams and the folks who pulled that off, it's incredible, incredible to pull that off. Okay, so we've debunked that conspiracy. All right, here's another one. I'm going to read you a quote here, and I'm not sure if it was from you or not. But the dam has broken. We can put our heads in the sand and pray for a miracle in November, or we can speak the truth. It was an important clarion call.

a couple months ago from one George Clooney. Were you the one that put the words in his mouth? And I did write that. Did you write that op-ed? I did write that. I wrote every single word. Are you ready to come clean on that right now? It's time. We're unburdened by the past, and you can admit it. You were the one. The number of inquiries I got...

About that. It was so weird. I think it must have come from somewhere. And I don't know where. I don't know where it came from. It might rhyme with Shmumida. It made me feel bad for George Clooney because I'm like... People are like, George can't write, dumbass actor. Right. And I had to explain to a reporter, I'm like, I've met Clooney a couple times and he is...

One of the smartest celebrities about politics, he could do a podcast with us and he would know all the inside. He's terminally online about politics. He gets it all. He's very good at this and he's a great writer. So yeah.

So it was not you. It was not me. Okay. Have you heard from George since? I have not. I have not heard from him. There was that card game that Barack Obama was mentioning last night, kind of, you know, the simple pleasures. Has it been you and George and him and Nancy? Were you guys sitting around doing a little Texas Hold'em any time the last smoking a cigar? Has that happened recently? I will say none of us were invited to the Biden family suite.

unmounted okay you get to hang out with a lot of celebs who is the most impressive celeb political mind that you've met political mind let's say that love it just went full survivor and was like going to be a full-time reality show host needed to replace him and and you know the the investors and crooked media were like we need a celeb we need to add we need to add a celeb to the mix

Who are you bringing in? Two people who come to mind who really could just be Pod Save America hosts. John Legend and Stephen Colbert. Colbert. Are we sure Colbert could do it? Are we sure? Colbert is... I feel a little too earnest for you guys, though. You guys have become jaded over the years. He's really not that... I mean, he's earnest for the show he has and the position he has on that show. He's on CBS. It's not like he's going to be...

us, but he, he knows a ton about politics and is very smart about it. Very, very smart. Okay. All right. Last thing I was listening to the, uh,

Donald Trump interview with Theo Vaughn on my plane ride up to New York here today. I have not heard that yet. I would probably not suffer through it. I'm not going to make the listeners, the vibes are too high right now. We're kind of just drinking lime out of the coconut right now and we're not going to make people listen to Donald Trump and Theo Vaughn talk. I might do a separate YouTube video on that if people want to go over to YouTube. But there was one thing that alarmed me about it.

And that was an ad that Dio read. Dio, for people who don't know, is kind of like a bro podcaster. He's like non-political, really. He's from Louisiana, so I have some mutuals with him. So I've been following him for a while. He might almost have as many listeners as PodDamnAmerica. I'm not 100% sure, but he has a lot of listeners. MMA, this kind of stuff. It's bro pod. It's like Joe Rogan, just like one level down from Joe Rogan. And a little less political even, and I think younger. And the ad was for sendthevote.com.

And it's like, this is a nonpartisan group for registering voters. And I was like, what the fuck is that? And so I Googled it. And it is like a Trump front that they are running ads on these like bro podcasts to try to register these kind of nonpolitical young men. And so I know that this is, you know, you were talking about this a little bit with Walls and his job tonight. But like, how can the Democrats like get in the game on this? It's a big red flag for me.

Yeah, me too. Look, I think they're doing everything right so far. Honestly, I think that part of the Walls pick was that. I think that as much... I was like, maybe we should do Shapiro first as well, as you know. We're not talking about that. We're not going back. We're not going back. We're not talking about that. He's great. He's doing a great job as the governor of Pennsylvania. But I also think Walls is a better fit for reaching those...

young men than anyone else would have been. I think Barack Obama can do that as well and it's very much on Obama's mind. Does he want to go on Theo Vaughn? Do you want me to help broker that? I think you'd do pretty well. Look, I think Obama could go on Rogan. I really do. I think he should. I think both Walls and Obama should be going on these bro

I mean, honestly, even someone like Bernie Sanders goes on Rogan and stuff like that. Yeah, Bernie does do it. Bernie's been on Theo. He's the only Democrat that's been on him. There's some good people who should reach out. I also think that there's a lot in Project 2025 that I have heard from the bros that I know who are not super political. And they'll reach out to me and be like, did you see this thing about they want to ban porn? Yeah.

You've got some college buddies that are concerned about the porn ban. They're in their seventh year of their marriage. They're like, I live in Texas now. My porn hub isn't working. No. They moved to Austin. They're like, what the fuck is happening, Favs? Literally things that I hear. Yeah. And it is, I think that the side of the Trump GOP that is, you know, the J.D. Vance, Mike Johnson, you know,

monitoring his kids porn intake with the app there like that shit is toxic with these younger men and you know you see like dave portnoy complain about it once in a while or barstool right and i do think that like highlighting that from a message perspective highlighting that is going to be important and then the messengers matter as well and you sort of like need guys who are not trying to like

out toxic masculinity trump right but to like show a different version of it which is like and make fun of you chill and cool and normal and and not like annoying and scoldy you know and still like be good people right all right well i hate it when i see the mega people do something smart and that send the vote.com had me feeling like they're doing something smart so let's do something smart back and get some get some normal chill democrats on with those guys uh favs

Wonderful. You did a great job last night, even though you didn't do the dick joke. I did think it was second, Michelle. And I don't know if that was her stuff or her team who's in her little kitchen cabinet. But whoever it is, is better than you because her speech was A plus last night. Barack's was pretty good as well. Thank you so much for coming on, man. Let's do this again soon. Thanks for having me, man.

All right, we'll see you later. That's Jon Favreau. We'll be back tomorrow with somebody funnier than Jon Favreau from the Democratic Party. And then we'll get back to your Never Trumpers after that. We'll see you all then soon. Peace.

Boss, Michelle Obama, who? Purse so heavy, gettin' Oprah dollars Boss, Michelle Obama, who? Purse so heavy, gettin' Oprah dollars Michelle Obama, who? N-F-I-D-E-N-T, that's me, I'm confident I want your compliment, use common sense I'ma my Michelle Obama Shut your mouth, boy, I think you know who run this house I ain't thirstin' for no bae, cause I already know what you're tryin' to say Hey, what's that show?

The Bored Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.