Introducing Was I in a Cult?
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Hello, it's Andrea. And today I wanted to introduce you to two friends of mine, writer-comedian Liz Iacuzzi and documentary filmmaker Tyler Meesom. Together, they are the hosts and creators of the podcast, Was I in a Cult? Each week, this duo brings you firsthand stories from real-life cult survivors.

Each episode infuses humor, heart, and hope into these otherwise dark tales of manipulation, coercive control, and abuse. And if you clocked some common themes with Nobody Should Believe Me, you are spot on. In fact, I was a guest on the show a few months back.

I love the stories on this show because as cult survivors themselves, Liz and Tyler are really the right people to guide listeners and they do a phenomenal job of humanizing the cult experience, which is so often sensationalized in the media. So

So today I'm sharing their episode with Nadine Macaluso. She is a psychotherapist, author, internet personality, and former model. And you may recognize her name from The Wolf of Wall Street as she was formerly married to financial criminal Jordan Belfort. I think you are going to love this episode and you can find hundreds more like it by subscribing to Was I in a Cult at the link in our show notes. Enjoy!

The thing is that I think when you join a cult, and this is how I felt in my relationship, it's like, "Oh, I'm gonna be safe here. This is my people or this is my person." Not even knowing it's the most dangerous place to be. But there's this pseudo feeling of safety. So the mask falls or the floor falls, right?

Welcome to Was I in a Cult? I'm Liz Iacuzzi. And over on this side of the table, I'm Tyler Meesom. And look, when we started this show, when we first created it, a lot of people asked, all right, you're going to have enough stories of cults? Are there enough cults out there? And the answer, of course, is yes. Yes. And then some. Sadly, there are many, many cults in the world. And as many of our listeners understand, there are many, many cults.

Cults are far more pervasive than most realize. And perverted as well. And you. Permitted. Permitted. And permissive. Right. And once you understand what constitutes a cult, you can see how really true it is.

All those P words are. But the thing about cults that sometimes is still missed is their relatability factor. Right. Many would still say, I would never join a cult. No. They're just for desperate lemmings, glassy-eyed individuals following along in a line. Weirdos. You guys, but today's episode, it may be our most relatable episode to date.

Because it's a relationship cult, a one-on-one cult. And it's a great way to show just how relatable coercion, manipulation, gaslighting, and indoctrination really are. And if you can understand an abusive relationship, you can understand a cult. Yeah, I think it was our guest, Hoyt Richards, who said, a cultic relationship is when you're seeking love and approval from the person who is abusing you.

I think we can all understand that and relate to that. That could be a parent, a teacher, coach,

A podcast host. Wow, we're so in sync with our days. We just gaslit each other, right. And today's guest we felt was the perfect one-on-one cult to have on the show. And her name is Dr. Nadine Macaluso. Macaluso, you know I have some distant second cousins. You have some Macaluso in you? I do. She married a Sicilian. My dad's Sicilian. I think they're maybe...

Long distance relations there. I'd like to think there was some kind of Italian turf war between the Iacuzzis and Macalusos. I'm picturing it now. It's called East Side Story. I'm writing it. Fighting over Caprize and Chianti. She is now a therapist who specializes in trauma bonds and abusive relationships. Dr. Ney is the ex-wife to the wolf of Wall Street, Jordan Belfort.

My name is Jordan Belfort. The year I turned 26, I made $49 million, which really pissed me off because it was three shy of a million a week.

Yes, guys, that Wolf of Wall Street, the one played by Mr. Leonardo DiCaprio. Perhaps you've heard of him in perhaps Scorsese's most famous film, The Wolf of Wall Street. I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to blow. Whoa, whoa. That is certainly not Martin Scorsese's most famous film. I mean.

Mean Streets, Raging Bull, Taxi Driver, Goodfellas, Casino. Au contraire, mon Gen Xer. The Wolf of Wall Street just so happens to be Martin Scorsese's highest grossing film. Both a commercial hit as well as critically received a gross guess how much, Tyler?

$50. $50. $406 million during its worldwide theatrical run. And I'm going to Tyler me some of your ass on that one too, Liz, because adjusted for inflation on box office, his most successful film is The Departed. How do you just...

Who does that? People on the internet do. That's who. I didn't do that in my head. I'm just saying there's inflation adjusted for cost of ticket prices. And The Departed is still his highest ranking, although probably not his most famous movie.

That would be Raging Bull in Masterpiece. But it might be his most popular. Among douche bros and internet memes, yes. The movie The Wolf of Wall Street was based on the memoir that Jordan wrote himself while, spoiler alert, he was in jail. And today's guest was portrayed by the hideous Margot Robbie in the film.

Whatever happened to her? Did she ever? She's never really done anything since then. I think she's due. I heard she did like some Barbie something. I don't know. Sounds like a flop to me. Ryan Gosling was the lead, so. But today isn't all about the flash and fun and drugs and money. No, today we get to hear the real story.

from a woman who had no say in a movie about a huge part of her life. So with that, we're happy to welcome to the show, Dr. Ney. Take it away, Dr. Ney. So what did you think when I was like, I want you to be on a cult show? What was your first reaction? Oh, I mean, like you say, a trauma bonds, right? It's a cult of one.

So it does make sense completely. Yeah. When did you realize it was a cult of one? I mean, not so many years later until I really could reflect back on my situation with my ex-husband. And then, of course, all the research that I've done. When you're in a trauma bond and I've never been in a big cult before.

But it seems to me a lot of it's about mind control. And coercion and love bombing and manipulation. And grooming. It takes a while to get out of something like that. And I think that's what people don't really understand.

So we're going to digest that today. So give us a little background of where you grew up, your upbringing, what your nuclear family was like. I grew up in Brooklyn in the 1970s, which was an amazing time to grow up on the streets of Brooklyn. Right. No Internet. Right.

50 kids on the street playing all day till the lights went down. It was the best. And parents couldn't helicopter, right? Because they're all working. And I was raised by a single mom because she divorced my dad when I was six.

And she was very into psychology and just really allowed us to process our feelings and taught us about compassion. It was a great, unchaotic, peaceful upbringing. Your dad was not in the picture anymore? He was really what you would call a Disneyland dad. He would literally come and take us to Disney and then leave all the hardware.

hard work out to my mother. You know, in the beginning, when she left my dad, she was on welfare. But again, everybody in Brooklyn was the same. So, you know, as a child, I really didn't know the difference, honestly. I went to high school in Coney Island, John Dewey High School, which was incredible, 4,000 kids. I took two trains to get to high school every day, but I loved it.

Really, I supported myself from the time I was 17, 18. And I was working nine to five net the old department store Barney's in their customer service department. And I was going to school working. It was insane hours. And then finally, people kept telling me, do you want a model? Do you want a model? And finally, I was like, OK, I'll do it. And I needed the money.

And I did a lot of commercials. So that's how I made a lot of my money. So I was having a ball just dating all the crazy rich playboys in the city and just having fun, going to Studio 54 with my best friends, dancing to Madonna. We'd take the train in, have $10 to get in and be like, okay, somebody's going to pay for our drinks. I think we used to have this ridiculous drink, a white Russian. Like who would even drink that now? I forgot. I think it's Kahlua and milk.

That's what we used to drink at the club. Yeah, who would even drink that now? You know who would? The dude. That's who would. Yeah, of course I do, man. We're both just like shaking our heads. Nobody can see we're just duding it out over here with our headship. El Duderino. You're the big Lebowski. I'm the dude.

Actually, in high school, stupid story, we had a drinking game where we'd watch The Big Lebowski and every time the dude would drink a white Russian. So would we. He drinks a lot. That guy drinks a lot of white Russians. Hey, man, I've got a beverage here. Did you know the white Russian was first invented, I'm going to Tyler me some of you right now. Tyler me. By not actually a Russian, but an old Irish guy.

who ran out of Bailey. That's not true. That is not true. That's not true. No, that's not true. But the truth is the white Russian was an evolution of what, Tyler? The black Russian, which also was not invented by a Russian, but a Belgian bartender, Gustav Topps.

in 1949 at the Hotel Metropole in Brussels. So the black Russian is... Just like the white Russian, only less racist. Nice, very nice. It's without the milk, is what I'm going to say. Correct. Liz with the facts today, ladies and gentlemen. I don't know if I like it so much. You're not into it? No, it kind of makes me uneasy. It makes me feel like an alcoholic at a bar, having to sit and watch other people drink. But speaking of white Russians... You know what? What? This just sounds good. Rob, would you like to...

Make us some white Russians? I wear a lot of hats, and one of them is a little bartender hat. Do you have the ingredients for a white Russian? Do you know what the ingredients are? I'm a sophisticated gentleman. Of course I have Kahlua and vodka and cream in the refrigerator. Okay, go ahead. It's 11 o'clock. It's 5 o'clock somewhere. Well, think about it. It's coffee and cream. It really is. It really is.

Okay, let's do it. I mean, it's noon somewhere, right? Pause for white Russian making. We'll be back in a moment. You know what pressure is, Tyler? Yeah, it's the David Bowie Queen song, 1981. Actually, that's under pressure, but it's the same thing. No, it's being at a restaurant and having to order a perfect meal. You know what? That's why I prefer buffets. You get all the food you want. Sweet potato pie with egg rolls, cider blocks and bagels. I just vomited.

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Hey there, Tyler. You're such a sweet fella, aren't you, boy? Are you okay over there, Liz? Did you have a stroke? What's happening? Sorry, I've been playing June's Journey and I'm now stuck in the 1920s, eh? Oh, June's Journey. Look, if you haven't heard of June's Journey, people, you're missing out on some serious fun. I love to play it at night alone in bed and I find it very relaxing. It's a fun hidden object game where you're solving a murder mystery with detailed, glamorous scenes of the 1920s.

I also play it while Tyler's anytime he's talking. It's the bee's knees, I tell you. It's the real bee's knees. Look, in every chapter unravels more secrets, more drama. It's a mystery lover's dream. Plus, you get to customize your very own luxurious estate island. And who doesn't love a little 1920s real estate? Whether you're searching for clues in New York or piecing together scandals in Paris, June's journey keeps you hooked. So join June Parker and help her solve...

the mystery discover your inner detective today when you download june's journey for free on ios and android oh but i already have tyler and i have to say it's the cat's pajamas i'm just dandy darling thank you ain't that the berry she's the real shiva let's get ready to move on from the 1920s don't take any wooden nickels if you know what i'm saying

We are back with White Russian in hand. You hear that tingle-tangle? Is this a good time to do my Russian accent for the rest of the episode? That's really good. Should I taste? Yes, you should. That's really good. This might be my first. Your first White Russian ever? I don't, I'm not really a cocktail White Russian drinker, but. But it won't be my last. Let's test it. All right, so here's to 11 a.m. drinking. We hope the rest of the day goes well.

And the rest of the episode, and the rest of the episode. This is the part of the episode where we put the clip with Matthew McConaughey ordering way too many drinks at a work lunch. And doing this. Yeah, right. What can I bring for you on this glorious afternoon? Well, Hector, here's the game plan. You're going to bring us two absolute white Russians. You know how I like them, straight up. And then precisely seven and one half minutes after that, you're going to bring us two more. Then...

Two more after that, every five minutes until one of us passes the fuck out. Excellent strategy, sir. I'm good with water for now, though. Thank you. It's his first day on Wall Street. Give him time. So, so far Nadine is living her best life, living it up in New York City as an early 20-something. Sipping white Russians like we... Model.

So just how did she meet her soon-to-be cult leader? So in the movie, The Wolf of Wall Street, it shows Jordan throwing this massive party, right? And Nadine goes to it with her boyfriend at the time. Jordan's married, but in the most respectful way, he completely blows off his wife. And by respectful, you mean... Disrespectful, actually, is what I mean. Here's a clip. This is my friend Naomi. Hi. Naomi. Nice to meet you. Naomi, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. We've got an awesome place here. Oh, yeah.

I don't think I've ever been in a house this big before. Oh, really? Yeah. It's a beautiful beach out there. Blair, how long has it been? Hi, Blair. Nice to meet you. My name's Blair, right? Yeah. You like to jet ski? I've never done it before. You've never jet skied in your life? No, I've never jet skied. You've never been on a jet ski? No, I haven't. How many times are you going to ask her if she's never been on a jet ski?

I don't know. I might ask her a couple more times. And here is Dr. Ney's retelling of that exact experience. So I was dating this guy as the movie depicts and we're going to go to this party in the Hamptons.

And so we pulled up to this party and just like the movie shows, there was a party, not a big party like it shows, but a smaller party. And we walk in and I don't know anybody. And everybody was acting really weird. And I couldn't understand why. And now I found out they were on Quaaludes. Yeah.

Jordan and I really didn't have that much of an interaction at all because I left because like somebody exposed himself to me and I felt so embarrassed. At 22, I felt so terribly uncomfortable.

And I just said to my boyfriend, we got to get the hell out of here. These people are crazy. What happened was that he, after seeing me, he made somebody $15,000 in the stock market to get them to take me to meet him because he couldn't call me. He was married, right? Red flag. So he said to this woman who knew me, tell Nadine you want to take her to dinner and I'm just going to show up. So

So I had no idea. So I just went to dinner with her and then he just showed up. Redder flag. When?

When he drove me home, I was like, does this guy like me? The next day I was having a party. And so I come home and there's a huge truck waiting to deliver like 1,200 square feet of flowers into my apartment. And I was like, whoa. So my friends were like, did you sleep? I said, sleep with him. I didn't even know he was going to basically show up.

You know, and then I didn't see him. I went to Chicago to model. And then when I came back around Christmas, we were working out at the same gym in the city. And then that was it. But he Jordan was married. So how did that make you feel?

Well, OK, so what he said was that he was getting divorced. He was separated. He had an apartment in the city, which he did. So at 22, I was like, OK, yeah. So the love bombing is so seductive, right? Just so much over the top admiration. And we're soulmates. We're going to be together forever. You're perfect for me and gifts and trips. You know, nothing like nothing I had ever seen before. Right.

Right. I had dated guys that were successful, but this was a different level. And it feels good to have someone be so obsessed with you until it doesn't. That's exactly right. Until it doesn't. Until they start to get possessive and tell you, you don't need to work, but I do like to work. So that feels a little weird, but I'm like, oh, OK, maybe, you know, he just wants to take care of me. So generous. Right. Right.

We fell madly in love. And then about three months into it, he said to me, I'm not going to date you if you're not going to marry me. And I was like, wait, I'm 23 years old. I don't want to get married. My parents got divorced when I was six.

I don't want to get married. And for some reason, I made some crazy vow. I didn't want to get married till I was 30 or whatever. That was in alignment with my values. But he was not like that. And then the goalposts get moving. Then I'm not going to marry you if you're not going to have children. And I would argue with him and try to state my case and express my needs. But I was no match for him.

as one rarely is to the sociopathic cult leader. So I just started to rationalize a lot of the red flags that I saw, especially the ones about pressuring me when to get married and when to have children, because those are very big decisions. And so I would get extraordinarily angry and frustrated. But again, I was no match for him. His rage was

like a tsunami. And then I would just convince myself and be like, oh, he just loves me so much. Let's just let it go, right? Let that go. The constant justification of the cult leader's behavior. All day long in these cults, guys. What was the first thing he did that was abusive that you can remember?

The first thing he really did where I saw it was we got engaged in front of my favorite fast food restaurant, Rolling Roaster, in Sheepshead Bay. Will you marry me? Oh, my God. Is that a yes? Are you sure? Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure. Are you sure? Yeah. Yeah.

And we were going on the Concours to Paris to celebrate. So here we are on this beautiful trip, having a beautiful time, going to the best restaurants. But then we start to get into an argument about the whole child thing. And he ripped a phone out of the wall. And I was like, oh boy, I've never seen anger or rage like this. And now I'm engaged, right? But that act of violence certainly shut me up.

You know, stopped me from expressing myself. And so that was like the first chip of the loss of self. Yes, because that domination and intimidation is part of the coercive control. But again, I had no idea about any of these terms, what these words were. You know, my mom, she took me to lunch, right? But when I got engaged and she looked at me and said, you know, you don't have to do this.

You really don't. And I was like, but I love them. So, you know, that went out the window. My dad, of course, was fine with it. He was like, okay, great. This is great. He had all the power and all the money. He had the Midas touch.

What if I told you that I just walked away from a wonderful and very high profile fitness brand to pursue bigger dreams? And I broke away from my own golden handcuffs to pursue a more artistic life. What's up? I'm Kendall Tool. And I'm Gailey Alex. And we are so excited to share our new podcast,

wholeheartedly with Kendall and Gailey. The two of us have taken the uncharted path and felt we were at a great place or at least at a pivot point in our lives to share our biggest tragedies and triumphs. So that everyone here with us can learn from our battles, victories, and our total F-ups. And that's from two people who have really been through it. Good Lord, yes. We're both still navigating life and we want you to come along on the journey so we can stay in the fight to overcome whatever BS is thrown our way. It's not easy out here, but we'll be walking everywhere

and talking with you through building careers, self-worth, relationships. Oh, and get some good laughs, please. Or tears. There's tears. That's true. There's always tears. That's true. All with our hearts on the line. So if this sounds additive to your journey, we are here for you. Join us every week on Wholeheartedly with Kendall and Gailey. Wholeheartedly will be available July 17th. Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcast.

Hey everyone, we're back. Just so you know, I am going to be in Toronto for all our fans in Toronto and I know they're out there. I have two films at the Toronto International Film Festival, one of which premieres on the 12th. It's called Taking Care of Business. We're having a big ass screening at the Roy Thompson Arena. 1800 people and I'd love one of you or two of you to come. I

The tickets are like 50, 60 bucks a piece, but I can give you two of them. First, people that message me on Patreon who are Patreon members can get two tickets to the show. You get to meet me and there's a celebrity who's going to be attending. I won't tell you who, but it's A-List. And guys, a brush is included and you get to brush Tyler's hair. Or just run your fingers through it, really, because I don't want you to mess it up. Or yeah, just a little. You can take your hand and just sort of...

Bob it. Squanch the curls. September 12th, any of our Toronto fans, please message us on Patreon. I'd love to meet you. How's your white Russian? Kalora is not a sponsor, but man are we selling this shit out of it. It's still good. It's just as good as the first sip. You feeling it a little bit? I mean, it is 11 in the morning. Yeah. Yeah.

That's why I'm sipping it. Yeah. Put it in your coffee, everybody. Just for the record, ladies and gentlemen, Rob has finished his White Russian. It's such a small little drink and I'm not talking. So tell me, your wedding was gorgeous and perfect on the outside. Ah, but the wedding was something out of a fairy tale. With Naomi, my duchess, me, her handsome duke, and the Bahamas Ocean Club, our castle. Yeah, not really, but yes.

So I was pregnant, right? Of course, even though I did have a miscarriage. And so we have 200 people at this beautiful hotel in Anguilla. And the night before our wedding, he decides to be plastered. I'm like, are you kidding me? You've made me get married. You've made me get pregnant. And you can't even stay somewhat sober? And I remember getting into a huge fight with him.

But, you know, everybody's there and I'm like, okay, let me go. Here comes the bride. I think I felt very, very, very sad.

and confused. But I remember feeling incredibly just full of despair, like with nowhere to go with it. And then we got married and we went on our honeymoon and everything was fine. And he wants to move me out to Long Island. And I'm like, really? What am I going to do in the suburbs of 23 without any children? Again, right? I'm just like, okay.

But how could I complain? He's buying me this 10,000 square foot home. Eventually taking her home to Long Island where we bought a house. Seven acres on the Gold Coast of Long Island. The most expensive real estate in the world. With maids, cooks, landscapers, you name it. We even had two guards who worked in shifts. Both named Rocco.

Making men around the world feel less than everywhere.

Oh, I was thinking a horse. Yeah, horse. Oh, yeah. No. Yeah. Go with your gut, man. You do you. That's that would have gotten me out of a lot of trouble. Have a horse on hand. Show up with a horse in the driveway.

You know, when life knocks you down, Liz, you just got to get back up on the horse. What do I always say? Reign it in, Mason. Reign it in. Was I in a cult? You know, like a baby horse. Oh, was I in a cult? Cult. Straight from the horse's mouth. Now you're just kicking a dead horse. Oh, boy. All right. Time to pony up and move on out. I vote nay on this entire thing.

So I felt very isolated out in Long Island, but because he was really running a cult called Stratton Oakmont, right? I mean, let's be real. That's total cult. And so then those people became my people. Yeah, I just he just like sequestered me out in suburbia to hang out with his cult.

Stratford Oakmont was a brokerage firm that gained infamy for its high-pressure sales tactics and fraudulent activities in the 1990s. It was founded by our main man, Jordan Belfort, and the firm made hundreds of millions of dollars through a scheme known as the pump and dump. A term stolen from breastfeeding women across the world.

Which, by the way, recently I've heard is a bit of a hope. We're going to need to do a little pumping and dumping after this white Russian. So you see, the firm's brokers, they would use aggressive sales tactics to promote stocks they owned or controlled, driving up the prices through exaggerated claims. And once the stock prices were artificially inflated, the firm sold off its shares at a profit, causing the prices to crash and leaving investors with significant losses. God bless unfiltered capitalism.

Eventually, Stratford-Oakmont was shut down by the authorities and Belfort, along with other executives, faced legal consequences for their actions. He's a great public speaker, excellent public speaker. So he just could talk his way through anything. And he was the leader. And they were making a lot of money.

And they were all young. And from the outside looking in, being married to this mover and shaker would seem like Dr. Ney had won the relationship lottery. If Instagram had been around back then, they would have all the external makings of hashtag couple gold.

I had the best dinner parties. I learned how to cook. I took wine classes. I took interior design classes because I'm like, if I'm going to do this, I better know. Is it a great for a place that I'm buying? What sort of chair is this? But we all know what you see on Instagram isn't usually what's going on in real life.

- What a fucking burden, and actually do some work besides swiping my fucking credit card all day, huh? 'Cause I can't keep track of your professions, honey. 'Cause last month you were a wine connoisseur, now you're an aspiring landscape architect. Let me get that right. - Yeah, I mean, I definitely lost myself because I couldn't have any emotional needs, right?

It was never about what I needed. If someone's dominating you and intimidating you, slowly but surely, you just lose the things that are important to you because you have to lose your identity to keep the identity with the couple. If you think about love, it's quality of connection and giving someone the space to be who they are. There's no space to be who I am there.

But I think the secret that I kept from, let's say, our friends really was how deeply sad I was inside. I don't even think that I could touch.

really how sad and broken I felt. I was just like going through the motions. And I think I was able to really compartmentalize and keep that a secret from people close to me. And so what would happen if you questioned the leader, so to speak, or spoke out or voiced your needs? Oh, yeah. A tsunami of rage, a tsunami of rage.

don't you dare who the fuck do you think you are blah blah blah you know just that sort of stuff I'm gonna do whatever I want you're not gonna tell me what to do well he's controlling me right and I was like no I just don't want you to take 10 quaaludes and have your head in the soup at dinner

Really, I'm not trying to be controlling here. His dad was very dominating and intimidating. And I think what happens is that becomes a learned behavior. And I think he also was born with a dominant temperament. I'm born with a conscientious temperament. And he's bright. And I think he was very sensitive. So I think the sensitivity combined with the dominant temperament combined with the learned behavior and his intelligence just created this.

personality. The sensitive part is a very interesting part that gets lost with a lot of these cult leaders because I do think they are little sad puppy dogs. Right. Underneath that vibrato is sort of this sensitive. It's not just a narcissistic personality disorder that you're dealing with. Yeah, because this person is really multilayered like all of us.

right? We're pretty complex beings. And so they usually have a cluster B personality disorder like narcissism, antisocial or borderline. I also use the term that was discovered in 2002 by researchers called the dark tetrad. And so the dark tetrad person has narcissism, has

psychopathy has Machiavellianism meaning they're highly manipulative right and then the sadism which they all don't have that but that's when they get pleasure out of seeing people that they love suffer

And so, but then they usually have high impulsivity. They can have compulsive process disorders like gambling or sex addiction. They can have a mood disorder like bipolar or major depression, and they can have substance abuse. So there's many different layers and they all have their own little smorgasbord of stuff into their personality. That's why they're so hard to figure out. And something that happens in cults a lot is sort of like the...

push-pull of like, oh, you love me. Oh, you hate, like build you up and knock you down because they have to be responsible for any greatness that you end up having. So that's what we would call intermittent reinforcement, which is really the bonds of the trauma bond because right there are a lot of bombing you and kind and generous and

And then they're cruel, controlling 70% of the time. But then 30% of the time, they're kind and generous and helpful. And so that is what keeps you super confused and creates that internal conflict inside of you. Is he good? Is he bad? Am I good or bad? Is the relationship good or bad? Who's crazy? That confusion creates cognitive dissonance. It means you have confusion or internal conflict.

And the gaslighting does, too, because it makes you doubt your perception of reality. That didn't happen. What are you, crazy? I didn't say that. Oh, you're making that up. And so let's say I would confront him about doing drugs and he'd be like, you didn't see me do that. I didn't do that. Am I acting stoned? I'm not acting stoned. But meanwhile, I know he's taking drugs because he takes drugs every single day. Right. We really fought mostly about his drug use.

And so it's impossible to really have a conversation with somebody like that. Or another form of it is they accuse you of all the things they're doing to deflect from what they're doing and keep you on the defense. I went to take a golf lesson and I come in.

Because I went to stop and get her sandwiches. And he's like, you're fucking the golf pro. And I'm like, what? I just got married. I'm a 23-year-old girl. And then he starts to scream at me. But that was because they're accusing you of what they're doing. One of the things they do is they blame you a lot for their behavior. I mean, I remember thinking, if I do this better, if I do that better, if I take a drug, if I don't take a drug, if I'm nice to him today, and maybe...

He'll be nice or be different. But of course, it's never about us. It's about them. And the self-blame, I mean, the blaming us is because they're the eternal victim, even though the perpetrator of the abuse. And there's something called the Karpman triangle, right? So they go from rescuer to perpetrator to victim. Beginning, he's rescuing me and he's perpetrating. Now he's my victim all of a sudden. So, I mean, more confusion, right?

So did you love him? For sure. Yeah. There were a lot of qualities that I did love about him for sure. It was very real for me. And that's the hard part too, when you wake up and you realize, but none of it was real. Like it was real for me. But yeah, no, it just devolved over time because the more and more the mask fell, the more all of these abusive negative behaviors were directed towards me. I was like, this doesn't feel like love.

Somebody can really suck the love out of you. The none of this is real part is what I think is crucial in that it's the exact same feeling in cults, larger cults. The feeling at the end when it's over that everything you believed in and stood for and fought for and sacrificed for and exiled loved ones for is

None of it is what you thought it was. None of it was real. But right now, Nadine is in it with him, fully committed to the life and love she thought she signed up for. Yeah, so after I had two miscarriages, then I was like, okay, now I did want to be pregnant, right? And then I gave birth to a beautiful baby, my daughter Chandler Ann. You look at a baby and you're so happy that they're there. And she's my best friend today. So, yeah, I wouldn't change any of that.

My son came two years later and they were just precious little beans. And then, right, then you're focused on that. I'm focused on them. You're just like in your own little private Idaho managing yourself. When did you know you wanted to leave him? I think there was moments from the very beginning because when he asked me to marry him, I said yes. But inside I said, uh, a part of me must have known, you know what I mean? Like this is, this isn't going to go great.

I always say that I had three last straws. And the first one was when I said to him, you have to get sober or I'm leaving you. And that's when he went crazy. And that's kind of like the scene that you see in the movie where he does get physical with me. He kicked me down the stairs.

I need you to get dressed. What the fuck's going on?

You're going to jail. So that was terrifying, but he did go to rehab, which was great. And he did get sober. And then the second straw was when six months later, we went to dinner and I said, you know, that was really, really hard. The abuse, the drugs. And he goes, it wasn't that bad. And that's that no remorse. But something inside of me closed. And then I think a few months later, he got arrested and I'm like...

He went to jail. They gave him the ankle brace that he came home. And I was just like, we have to get divorced. I'm done. I want a divorce. What do you mean you want a divorce? What is that supposed to mean, you want a divorce? Get off me. I want a divorce. Get off me. You just made love to me. What the fuck is wrong with you? I don't love you anymore, Jordan. You don't love me? You don't love me anymore, huh?

That was my window. I knew I was safe. He had an ankle bracelet on. There was nothing more he could do to me. The power balance had shifted, and it was very clear that he was the bad one. Now that I'm under federal indictment with an electronic bracelet around my ankle, now you decide you don't fucking love me anymore. Is that right? No. This is how it's going to go. I'm going to take custody of the kids. If you agree to the divorce right now, I will allow visitation, okay? Don't try to fight it.

Jordan Belfort was arrested in 1999 and in 2003 pleaded guilty to his crimes. He was sentenced to four years in prison, but served only about 22 months after cooperating with authorities. He was also forced to pay restitution to his victims, which amounted to over $110 million. Hefty amount. It's what you owe me, Tyler, but...

I am going to pay you back. I will do that. I promise. The thing is that, like, I was fearful, but the need for freedom trumped the fear. I was just like, I have to be free of this. I just have to be. And I just was like, I'm going to face my fears. It can't be as bad as what I've endured. And then, but we had another house and then he left. He went to our other house. And once you find the courage to leave, once you reach your point of no return...

Oh, I'm sorry. Were you talking? I'm sorry. Help me, Rob. When the ice melts, it just kind of takes it to the next level. It builds. Guys, I'm stuck with these two idiots. No, go ahead. We're fine. I'm listening, Liz. We're all listening. Once you find the courage to leave. I wonder if that's better with cream than it is because 2% is pretty good, but I bet the cream is really... Oh, it's much richer, much velvetier.

Oh, I'm sorry, Liz. Continue, please. And once you find the courage to leave, once you reach your point of no return, there is so much freedom on the other side. I'm surprised at how good it is with 2% milk. It really is. It's pretty good. I really like it.

And then I just was like, I was so happy. I was just so happy once I got out. I always say, do you remember the scene in Risky Business, Tom Cruise, when the parents leave and he slides across the floor and dances in his underwear? That was me. That was how I felt.

so happy and so free. And listen, that didn't mean I didn't feel afraid. That didn't mean they didn't have a lot of what ifs, right? And I was not prepared back then. I was flying by the seat of my pants. Now I teach my women, don't ever let them see you coming because...

You have to tell somebody that wants to control you that you're late. They're going to go nuts. And they weren't nice to you when you were in the marriage or relationship. They're not going to be nice to you. But like I tell my patients today, you don't have to know how. You just have to keep showing up with the intention to rebuild your life every single day, even when it seems hard.

Walking away from what you thought your relationship was, what you thought your group was, what you thought your church was, is incredibly painful. And for Dr. Ney, she didn't want any part of the smoke and mirrors. And I just left and I didn't want any money because it was all blood money. So I had a little business at the time. I had a maternity company, so I had a little store and a catalog and a website. So that kept me busy. And I had my kids.

And I just really lived my life and just worked hard on my business and, you

Raised my kids and then just worked on getting divorced from him. He would keep trying to get me back, but I told him, my cells have memory. I cannot come back to you. It's not even my mind at this point. Again, there was nothing he could do because of the ankle bracelet. His power, his magic was gone. Well, the perceived magic, right, that I thought he had. It's like Dorothy. I could have gone home the whole time.

And then about a year and a half, two years later, I met my current husband. And he had three little girls and I had two little kids. So I met him on a blind date and we got along great. So we dated for a while. And then, of course, I was like, I can't trust you. I can't trust myself.

But after I had left Jordan, I did check myself into a place called the Karen Foundation. And I went away for a week to this program called Breakthrough. And so I worked on myself that week a lot. I learned about boundaries. I learned I could say no, like all these things that I didn't know because nobody was talking about this 25 years ago. So I'd done a lot of work on myself throughout this whole crazy time. Hence why I became a therapist, because I know therapy works, right? Because I think it saved my life.

I don't know if we'd be talking, honestly, had I not been in therapy. So I did trust myself a little bit more to make a good decision. I took a leap of faith. I was like, okay, let's do it. Can't be as bad as what I experienced. Nothing can.

At what point did the book come out? Liz, of course, is referring to Jordan's book, The Wolf of Wall Street. So Jordan didn't get sentenced until many years later. While he went to jail, he wrote the book. Quick aside, when Jordan was in jail at the Taft Correctional Institution in California, he served time with Tommy Chong, who was incarcerated for selling drug paraphernalia through his company. Tommy Chong is, of course, one half of the comedy duo Taft.

known as Cheech and Chong. And Chong encouraged Belfort to write his book. Cheech and Chong certainly encouraged many people to do many a thing, but writing a book isn't what I would put at the top of that list. No, but Tommy Chong did convince Belfort to write the book while in prison. Dude, you should write a memoir about how you're like such a douchebag.

Are you going to drink that? Because, I mean, I'm almost empty here. I like to. You haven't said a lot of cool facts. I thought we were playing a drinking game where every time you say facts, I drink. Oh, God. How close is the hospital?

And he sent it to me and he was like, what do you think? I did this for us. I'm like, you didn't do this for us. I'm already remarried, happy, have my life. And yeah, I like, I got so emotional. I cried. My husband's okay. Get up out of bed now. It was like, okay, it's a book. I was going back to school right at that time to get my master's. And then seven years later, as I was finishing my doctorate, it was becoming a movie, you

You know, I was like, oh boy, how are they going to portray me? Right. And I used to worry about it. Then one day I was like, Nadine, you have to let go. You just have to surrender into this process. This is bigger than you. Luckily for me, I had been in so much therapy. Thank God. So I processed it so much. I can only control what I can control. This movie is getting made. And so when I saw the movie with my current husband, I was like, okay, it's not that bad. You know, he looks like a crazy person, which he was.

So he exposed himself and I look like this young girl who fell really in love with somebody and was strong enough to leave and protected her kids. So it didn't go into the depth of my character, which was fine because it's not my story, really. It's his story. But today on our show, it is your story, Dr. Ney.

And so I was okay with it. And mostly I was concerned about my kids and they were okay. They were like, that's my dad. What they got wrong in the movie is that I never got into fights with Jordan about other women. I didn't even know about all those things that he shows or writes about. We got into arguments about his drug addiction. You're a lying piece of shit. Duchess baby, come on. Don't you fucking duchess me. I'm sorry.

Liz, you ever thrown a drink in someone's face?

Because there's one in front of you. I'm just wondering if it's going to end up on my shirt and face. I don't think I've ever thrown a drink in somebody's face. Nor have I ever had a drink thrown in my face. But the day is young, so we'll see. But I will change that tonight. I'm just going to throw a drink in my toddler's face. If anyone deserves it, it's our children. It's Henry. I'm going to be like, what did you say? I said get in the bathtub.

Kool-Aid right in their face. Yeah. And he'll just laugh and go, again, mommy, again. And then you'll have to clean it up. That's stupid stuff. But otherwise, it's all true. What about that one scene that everybody, mommy doesn't want it. Oh, no. No, daddy doesn't even get to touch mommy for a very, very, very long time. And from now on, it's going to be nothing but short, short skirts around the house.

And you know something else, Daddy? Mommy is just so sick and tired of wearing panties. I wish I was that sexy. I'd probably have babies blow up on me. And I didn't wear white heels near my house. I mean, it's a great scene, but the only thing that was real is there were cameras in my daughter's room because he was paranoid. But no, I'm not that sexy.

She did get the accent pretty good, I thought. She did. She did. And I met with her to get the accent and she did a good job. Yeah. It's a hard one. It's like a mix of now Brooklyn and Long Island, probably. It was probably worse 25 years ago before I lived in California, you know. Like you went back to school at what age? At 39. I mean, that's incredible. Yeah. I love school. I always loved school. I always loved therapy and I love helping people and I love relationships. And it's something I know I was meant to do.

But when I first opened my practice, I wanted to really help everybody. And so that was my intention. But then all these smart, white, beautiful women were coming into my practice, controlled, manipulated, betrayed, abused. And I was like, what is happening? Because I work with women who are in trauma bonds, right? And I help them escape and heal. And

trauma bonding, how do you see it as it relates to cults versus relationships? Yeah, well, because, you know, you're like you say, you're indoctrinated into this other person's way of thinking, believing and living.

And there's no space for you. I know about the grooming that happens, right? Which is similar to love bombing. And then you're indoctrinated into this way of being. And it's the thing is that I think when you join a cult, and this is how I felt in my relationship, it's like,

oh, I'm going to be safe here. This is my people or this is my person. Not even knowing it's the most dangerous place to be. But there's this pseudo feeling of safety. So the mask falls or the floor falls, right? And then I said, that's it, I'm going to write a book because I really want to understand what's happening. I started to write the book, I think around 2018, but then it took a few different changes as my research deepens.

I started to learn more. And then, yeah, and then it just, it was the hardest thing I've ever done. Very humbling experience, but it helps people and people don't feel alone and they feel validated and they feel seen and they don't feel crazy anymore. I think just also the topic is very dark.

The second chapter is he twisted her tender was really hard to write. I remember like screaming at my husband, I hate you. I hate Jordan. I hate my father. He was like, okay, this is fun. And just weaving in all the clinical material with the story so that it comes to life for people. But I did it and I'm proud of it. And it was very humbling experience. And yeah, my book is called Run Like Hell, A Therapist's Guide to Recognizing, Escaping and Healing from Trauma Bombs.

You know, it's almost like I wrote my book that I wish somebody would have given me all those years ago. One of the reasons I wrote my book is to destigmatize everything for the victim because it's

Anyone and everyone can fall prey to a cult leader or a pathological lover, especially if you are a trusting, kind, loyal human being and you think everybody sees the world like you do. Yeah, so I use the word pathological lover because pathological means mentally unwell. And so I believe anybody that will use, harm, exploit, and betray the person they love to

to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status if they're mentally unwell. That's not a healthy thing to do, to use people and exploit them. And listen, some people do have intense developmental trauma, and it is a reenactment. Some people don't. It's just, it affects everybody. And I think to label or pathologize the victim, that doesn't mean I didn't have things to look at. It doesn't mean I didn't have things to work on within myself. Of course I did.

I was not responsible for his abuse and drug addiction. And when you tell somebody they're codependent, that's what you're saying to them.

So what was it like becoming famous when you didn't even ask for it or ever really want to be famous? You know, honestly, when it first came out that I got so many phone calls from like Entertainment Tonight or this or this or that, and I never said anything about it because, you know what, I had nothing to say. But, you know, I don't let them use my name in the movie. And he was trying to convince me. And I was like, listen, I make no money. I have no creative input. OK, that's the one

That's the one thing I'm going to say. They can't use my name. But he goes, but you're going to have a hundred million dollar campaign to do with whatever you want. And I was like, whatever I want, like, what am I going to do with it? Now I get to exploit the movie. I actually use this movie to raise awareness about trauma bonds and domestic violence. Isn't that an interesting twist? Yeah. Didn't see that coming, Jordan. Did you? I wish I could say it's a grand plan.

But again, like trusting the process, surrendering and showing up and what was meant to emerge emerged. Well, I think it's the biggest form of taking your power back. Yeah, honestly, it all just all fell into place. And I feel so blessed.

with the women that I get to help. I just feel so blessed with the work that I get to do. It is so fulfilling and gives my life such meaning and purpose. At the end of the day, I am a clinician. I love being a therapist. I love my work and I'll never give that up. If you ever like, if there's a listener right now and she's in a, or he is in a similar situation, whether it's a one-on-one call to work,

a workplace cult or a real cult. And in that moment,

of their experience? Is there anything? Yes. Reach out, tell somebody because when you're in this situation, you don't really trust your perception. And I understand that. And it's really important to go talk to somebody and have somebody say, no, I believe you. I believe that what you're telling me is true and this is wrong. And just one person saying that can just start you opening up more and getting better, healthier feedback.

A lot of the things in cults right after they get out is this big element of shame. If you think about the root word of shame is skim and it means to hide. So we want to hide when we feel shame. And I understand that, but it's the abuse of shame to carry, not yours.

And so I understand that it can just make you want to hide. But again, the only way to heal it is to reach out because we can't heal or build resilience in isolation. We can only build it with others. And self-compassion is a huge antidote to shame. And self-compassion is simply, I'm suffering. The world is suffering. I must speak to myself as I would a good friend. And I remember saying that to myself, boy, nay.

And what does Jordan think about all the work you're doing today and how open you are? Yeah.

But I was like, listen, you wrote a book, you made a movie, I could do a three-minute TikTok. And you wanted to use and exploit our story for your purposes, and I get to do it for mine. And you know, we actually have a good relationship. After all is said and done, was there ever any remorse? There wasn't any real resolution between the two of us. That's just the reality of it. I mean, I was nice to him. We would come over for holidays. We certainly have a nice enough relationship.

Like, I hope he has a good life. He's remarried. My kid's love is to be a wife. Life goes on, right? You've been married how long? Oh, my God. We're together 25 years, and we share two grandchildren now, and it's been great. It's been bumpy. No relationship is perfect.

But it's a different kind of imperfect because we're both willing to work on the marriage. And you've got to want it enough to keep working at it. And you have to be able to hear each other. And you have to have resolution to the ruptures, right? And we have to have remorse. There are certain things that...

Need to happen. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so excited to get your story out there and get people to know the truth. Thank you. I feel just lucky to get to do it, honestly. They say love what you do and you never work a day in your life. And it's true. Thank you so much. Of course. You're amazing. Today, Dr. Nadine has an active social media where she posts helpful and inspiring clips about trauma bonding and abusive relationships.

She also posts a lot about her past relationship with Jordan and shares the truth behind the picture-perfect life that she had. She writes letters to her younger self, practicing that self-compassion she spoke about earlier. You guys can follow her on Instagram at TheRealDrNadeen, that's D-R, TheRealDrNadeen, and on TikTok at DrNaeLMFT, that's D-R-N-A-E-L-M-F-T.

And we'll also link to Dr. Nadine's book titled once again, run like hell in our show notes. This glass is empty. As we come to the end of the show and the end of the glass, we want to thank everyone for being here, for listening and support. Without you guys, we couldn't do what we do. So thank you. And next week, we'll be back with a story of a man who as a teenager got coerced into an acting class cult with the promise of Hollywood success.

So around like my junior year of high school, people actually started calling us a cult because of our commitment to one another, our devotion, the fact that we were all we knew, all we hung out with. Our life was centered around that. Even relationships were centered around that. If you were going to date somebody, you were going to date somebody in that group because we were all we knew.

Wasn't it Cult is written, produced, and hosted by me, the dudette, Liz Ayakuzi. And me, Tyler Raging Bowl Meesome. Jesus! What the f- what was that? What just happened? I feel like just like that was like Minnie Mouse just screamed. It was like some- Hurricane Minnie. Monkey just got let loose.

Let's not forget Rob Perra. I want to say bless you, but I actually wonder if you're okay. I wonder if blessing you is enough. It's definitely not enough. You need a lot more than a blessing, Tyler. Hallelujah. Oh, yes. Rob Perra. He's our audio producer, sound designer, drink purr.

sommelier bartender aficionado monsieur our social media maven who wishes she were here drinking white russians with us is uh shannie payton and our non-russian steve labrum but very white but very white our executive producer and if he were here there would be a lot more of these gone still sounds good

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