“I Brought You Into This World I Can Take You Out”
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Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show we discuss child abuse and this content may be difficult for some listeners. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to MunchausenSupport.com to connect with professionals who can help.

So as many of you may know, if you've listened to the previous seasons of this show, I come to all of this with a really deep personal connection, which is that I strongly believe that my niece and nephew are victims of Munchausen by proxy abuse. My sister has been investigated twice for medical child abuse. And though she has not been charged with a crime, she has been charged with a crime of

One of the investigations involved a two-year-long police investigation that I was able to obtain a lot of information from. And so I know that the evidence against her was incredibly strong. In particular, that they had video footage of her tampering with medications. So after my sister was investigated for the second time for medical child abuse, this time of her youngest child, my niece,

I was really hopeful during that investigation that something was going to come of it because I knew the police were involved. They had a lot to go on and they seemed really serious about it. And when I got the news in the summer of 2019, bizarrely right before my book came out, that she'd gotten her kids back, it was just so crushing because...

Even though it feels naive to say this now, I really thought, okay, they've got her. Like, this is the second time. No one could possibly look at this situation and just think there's nothing wrong here. I know these kids are not safe and no one is doing anything to intervene. No one is going to help them. No one is, you know, kind of like no one cares, right? I mean, that's how it felt.

And so I remember, you know, I told my parents, I said, if there's information that comes in about Megan, don't tell me unless something changes, unless something about this situation changes.

I don't want to know because whenever I find out something new has happened, it just sends me back into a spiral and there's nothing that anyone can do about it. So when the authorities have failed and those systems that are supposed to protect them have failed and the family members around them that are allowed to be in their lives are failing them, in my opinion, then like what is even my role? I think it wasn't until I started the show that

And I sort of learned about how to report on these cases and how to sort of like legally talk about cases where there wasn't a conviction, which there's not in my sister's case. And there's not even, you know, there was never any charges filed by the prosecutor's office.

And then I realized, okay, the only thing I can do, the only thing I can do is be as public as possible with the information that I do have because hopefully that will alert the people who are in those kids' lives to watch out for them, right? And just like more eyes on the kids will give them a better chance of coming out alive, of surviving to adulthood.

So I think as I was getting like into learning more about this abuse, it's like the more you learn about it, it does not make you feel better about the possible outcome for those kids. And it's really devastating to see what this does to people's like psyche and their emotional well-being. But meeting Joe, who's obviously, you know, Joe is an incredible person and very resilient and kind.

They gave me the chance to connect with, like, the real possibility of what my niece and nephew might be dealing with when they reach adulthood, if they're able to get some distance from my sister, and, like, how to potentially be able to help them in a time that, like, is coming up

kind of fast now. I mean, my nephew is 14 and it's not so many years away. Like when I think about four years ago, I'm like, that sounds, that feels like five minutes ago, you know? And so I think getting to know Joe has really helped me feel like, okay,

There's nothing I can do other than share what I know for now, right? I can't like just I can't get them out of there. There isn't going to be anything that I'm going to be able to do or anyone else is going to be able to do. I'm convinced that we'll successfully like be a successful intervention, but it's given me something to hold on to for when they come out the other side. People believe their eyes.

That's something that actually is so central to this whole issue and to people that experience this, is that we do believe the people that we love when they're telling us something. If you questioned everything that everyone told you, you couldn't make it through your day. I'm Andrea Dunlop. Welcome to season four of Nobody Should Believe Me. This season, we will be following Jordan Hope as they unravel the many mysteries of their childhood. ♪

How and when did you first discover that you had been a victim of Munchausen by proxy? I first discovered that I was a victim in 2018. I was sitting in a class at the community college I was attending in St. Louis, and my professor in my psychology class happened to be talking about Munchausen's and Munchausen's by proxy, and

And as she talked about it, I suddenly just got flooded with memory after memory. And I took out my phone and I wrote it all down in my notes and immediately emailed my therapy team, kind of panicked because I had never heard of this. And my whole life just kind of suddenly felt like it was over.

What was your understanding of your life story up until that point before you heard that term?

Up until that point, I thought that I was sick. I thought that I had asthma. I thought I had a severe blood disorder called neutropenia that made it so I got sick easier than others. I thought I had so many different illnesses and issues and that I had just grown up really sick and on the verge of death my whole life.

The level of manipulation in cases like Joe's means that the survivor is not only dealing with the trauma and betrayal of the abuse that they endured, but that they have a life story that suddenly, when this abuse is revealed, makes absolutely no sense. But as Joe listened to their professor explain Munchausen by proxy, something fell into place. And suddenly, Joe's entire life since birth became a question mark.

So today, we're taking a closer look at the process of trying to reassemble their life story and untangle the morass of lies their mother left them with. Who even was Donna?

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Another person who works very closely with Joe and I at Munchausen Support, who will also be familiar to longtime listeners of the show, is Bea Yorker. Bea has been a frequent guest and is a very well-known expert on Munchausen by proxy. She has been a mentor to me since my very first meeting with the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children's Munchausen by proxy committee way back in 2020. When Joe joined the APSAC committee, Bea recognized right away that they were a very special person.

So most of the survivors of Munchausen by proxy are fairly chaotic when they tell their story. And then here comes Joe,

And their story is linear. And then they were able to link it to all the higher theories. So for example, Joe was talking about the body keeps the score and advanced trauma theory right in that meeting and how they were making sense of their experience through that book.

For the last several years, Bea and Joe have worked with me at Munchausen Support, which is the nonprofit that I founded to help families and survivors of this abuse. One of the things we offer there is peer support groups for survivors, and we have all been stunned by the commonalities of their experiences. And we've learned that there are many reasons why survivors struggle to make sense of what's happened to them. One of the reasons it's chaotic in the first few sessions for people to tell their story is

is because they second-guess everything that they think they might have a visual or an auditory or physical memory of. They just question it. They just, "I'm not sure that's real. I'm not sure that was real." So they all question their reality. Then they all also have so much shame. And that's another reason that having peers to talk about this with who can say, "Yeah, shame is a big part of this."

You're ashamed with your peers that your family would have such a dark secret. For survivors and family members, we're not only dealing with the isolation of going through something that is not relatable to most of the people in our lives, and the loss of a really important relationship, whether that's with a parent or a sibling or whoever the offender is in your family,

But it's just a really heavy thing to live with. I remember for many years after becoming estranged from my sister, when I would see people that I hadn't seen in a long time, and they would ask me about her. I mean, what do you say? That's not something you can explain in a casual interaction at a grocery store. It just isn't. And...

On the rare occasions when I did try and explain it to someone, they would get so upset. So I had two choices. I could sort of try and explain what happened or I could minimize it. And then often that person would say something like, well, you know, you guys should really get back in touch. Like family is so important. And it just makes you feel so isolated. And like you have this huge sort of dark space.

monster under the bed in your family history that nobody else can even relate to. And being able to talk to other people who've been through that same thing and aren't shocked by it, like just to understand who have language for it is really profound.

Bea brings decades of experience to this work, so she knows that the road to healing is not going to be straightforward. One step forward, two steps back, or two steps forward, one step back. There's discouragement when you do peel back another layer and another sort of remembering with eyes that understand Munchausen by proxy abuse and perpetrators.

And then there's regression because the progress you felt that you were making to tackle your life, to go to school, to get your next degree, to have a relationship, to, you know, maybe move in with a partner. There's setbacks each time those layers are peeled back. I do come back and visit regularly.

usually six months and then a year or however long, I come back and visit the groups and I'm astounded at the growth that we see after they do this work of unpeeling.

Step one for survivors is to try to put the pieces of their life story back together. As they begin to separate from the insular world that their abuser confined them to, reality begins to seep back in. Sometimes this happens via medical records they're able to collect or just from outside voices of people that they're now actually allowed to communicate with. The veil begins to lift and suddenly nothing makes sense anymore.

Jo knows, objectively, that their mother did horrific things to them as a child, but these aren't memories that they can always access. Yeah, I can't really remember too many bad moments with my mom when I was really little. I really, when I picture mom then, it's like just good mom. That's kind of how I always have like good mom and then there is bad mom, but I can't

can't really remember many instances of bad mom when I was really little. I remember like one time

getting yelled at for something. I don't remember what. I remember feeling scared, but that's like one memory that I have. Or I had like broken this shovel and I was really scared she was going to be mad at me. So I like hit it and then she found it. And I remember her not being mad. And I remember being really scared

surprised by that, but I don't have other memories of her being mad or angry, which is interesting because one of my biggest fears now is getting in trouble. Like I break a salt shaker and I just like have a full-blown panic attack thinking like I'm going to get in trouble or go to jail or something bad's going to happen. So I know like that fear had to have come from somewhere, but those memories I have zero access to. I really...

Everyone dissociates to a degree. This can be anything from, you know, the feeling of daydreaming or when you blink and suddenly you've driven home and you can't remember your commute. But dissociation can be really extreme for survivors of abuse and trauma. And Jo often found that they didn't have an explanation for these intense physical and emotional after effects that they were suffering. I remember going to Sunday school and going to school and going to school.

With my mom, because she taught Sunday school at my church for a long time. And then the baking, like I would sit there with my Legos baking a Lego cake while my mom baked whatever she was making. And then I can just remember...

Cuddling a lot, which I think when I was younger, I liked a lot more. I think as I got older, I started to feel more trapped within that. But as a little kid, I think there was some comfort that I found. Like all I could remember was, like I said, being like kind of happy and fun and having like a decent childhood and being

But then I struggle with dissociation. And whenever I would dissociate, I'd be hiding in closets or like really, really fearful or unable to talk. And so I was like, why when I'm having this dissociation and appearing younger, am I so scared? But my only memories are of being happy and carefree and having fun. And like this does not add up at all. And so I reached out. That's when I reached out to...

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There's nothing like a bunch of time in the car to get to know someone. Though Joe and I have known each other for years, this is only the second time we've ever gotten to hang out in person. So it was so great to have all of this uninterrupted time together. Mariah, my new producer, and I had spoken exactly twice before this trip. But bless her, she fit right in and was singing along with us to the Rent soundtrack in no time. ♪

Do you think Rent was your exhibit A of queerness? Oh my gosh. It's so weird because like in my head, like I'm like, nah, but like probably, probably. It's so interesting to think back to all that. It's like, oh my gosh, when I was, I don't even know, I was probably 14, 14 or 15. I started calling surgeons asking if they would like do top surgery. Um,

But even then, it was like I was not aware of, like, being trans or anything like that. I just knew that I felt uncomfortable in my body and that that would make me feel better. But had, like... Yeah. At that point, I was still, I feel like, overly feminine because I felt like...

I just felt like that's what I was, like, supposed to do or had to do. And I couldn't understand, like, why I didn't fit in or things like that, which obviously there were so many reasons. But... When did you, like... Was it earlier than that that you sort of... Like, when did you first start to feel like the way that people...

saw your gender was not how you were experiencing it internally. I think that was kind of like off and on probably my whole life in ways. Like my mom kind of

raised me to be, like, a girly girl, wear dresses, do pageants, like, a cheerleader, you know, whatever. And my sister was very much, like, a tomboy, and so it was very much, I had, like, depending on which one of them I was with, it was very different. But I remember, like, there were times, like, as a kid, like, I was so afraid that people were gonna call me, or, like, if people added an E on my name, I'd get really upset, or...

Or if people, like, I would get scared at times that because my name was Joe that people were going to, like, think I was a boy. And I was, like, so afraid of that. Yeah. And, like... And do you think that fear was, like, you were afraid they were... Because, like, I cut my hair really short when I was in, like, fourth grade and people would occasionally think I was a boy. But that...

that I was afraid people would think I was a boy because I was a girl. Do you think it was more, was it that or was it like, oh, you were afraid people were going to see who you really were? Or like, what do you think? I don't know. Like, what do you think that fear was about? I really do not know. I know it was like pretty intense. Um,

which makes me feel like it was probably more like that I was afraid of being found out or seen, even though I didn't really know at that point. - And how did your mom react to your sister's sort of less feminine presentation?

You know, I was like mom's mini-me, so I think it was like kind of okay for my sister. I don't know how it was like, because my sister was already that way like when I was born and stuff, so I don't know like how she got to that point or if she was ever like the mini-me. But I don't remember too much. Like I think it was just kind of like she is who she is.

I'd heard bits and pieces about Joe's sister, Crystal, over the years, and I knew that their relationship had been challenging. They are 12 years apart, and they were close growing up, but they've really struggled at various points in their adult lives to maintain a connection. And that was especially true in the wake of Joe becoming more public about the abuse they suffered as a child. So originally, I thought Crystal was going to be off limits for an interview. But once we were there, Joe decided that they really wanted to talk to her, and she agreed.

Well, I'm glad this is happening. Uh-huh. I think since you felt like you wanted to send that message, that's the right thing. That's right to hold that intuition, you know? We'll find out. Yeah, I think this will be the biggest, like, wild card.

Crystal is, as Joe described, tomboyish in a tropical button-down and long, loose blue shorts. Her sandy hair is styled in a killer mohawk. She's polite, but a bit guarded, as she shows us around her apartment. I mean, if your guys' shoes aren't too bad, I don't really care too much. Crystal was almost a teenager when Joe was born, so she has her own very distinct memories of life with Donna. And it was a turbulent way to grow up.

I moved at least once a year growing up. My mom would just get a wild hair. Away we would go. So we lived all over Hutch, or like not Hutch, all over Minnesota. We lived in South Dakota once, we lived in Florida for a while. Moved back to Hutch. Yeah. And then kind of been in this town from like sixth grade until I went off to college. Eden Prairie. Yeah, we lived in Eden Prairie after that. Well, Shockby, Prior Lake, Eden Prairie.

And then back here, just because we thought we'd be able to save more money in a small town.

And that has not been the case. This town is sucking the life out of everything. Crystal was constantly bouncing around from place to place, and even within Hutch, she was forever being shuffled to various family members and friends. I grew up mostly with, like, my mom's friend, so Jamie. She was always at her house. So, like, I kind of grew up with, like, a sibling, or if I wasn't home for whatever reason, I had to stay with my aunts and uncles who also had kids. So, like, I don't...

I guess I consider myself, I guess I was an only child. I just never felt that way. So just a heads up, there were a lot of different guys coming in and out of their lives during this time, so it can be very hard to track. Donna appears to have been married to Crystal's stepfather, Dale, throughout this period. But Dale stayed back in Minnesota when Crystal and Donna moved around Florida.

Then at some point, Donna decided no more Florida and moved back to Hutchinson, but this time to be with a guy named Reza. Before eventually they moved back in with Dale right before Joe was born. So were you and Dale separated at that time? I didn't know what was going on because they just fought a lot. There was a pretty volatile relationship. Like, Dale has a really high temper. Like...

Sometimes he'll put it off like he isn't, but he was pretty violent as well. Mom was also violent. So between the two of them, it was really hard. So they just didn't get along. Mom started drinking more, got into a really big depression. So she moved me with her up here. And that was just a weird travel experience from Florida to Minnesota again. Because my mom man hops and

Like I got my first mountain bike I've ever owned because some dude that was driving a semi was on the CB radio for whatever reason my mom had a CB radio and our old Ford Focus and like she was talking to him and we ended up at a truck stop where obviously mom goes and does her thing and leaves me in the car at this truck stop and I have a brand new mountain bike.

Which as a kid you're like wow come on. No it was weird then too. That's fair. So how old are you when you're making this trip? Like 11. You drove all the way? We drove all the way because like uh I mean we must have just packed up only what we had in like we could fit in that little car um when we moved because I don't remember having a whole lot and then when Dale came up from Florida he brought most of the stuff with him. Not all of but most of the stuff that we owned came back then.

So what did you understand about why you were moving from Florida back to Hutch when you were 11? It's the same as it always had been. Mom just got tired of living where she was. She would blame it on my adoptive dad that we had to move. But you know that's not the truth, even as a kid. What's your relationship to Dale? Dale was just a stepdad. Nothing more, nothing less.

Most of the conversations that we've had up until this point in our trip have felt like these really warm reunions. But this conversation with Crystal feels really different, and it feels like the stakes are really high.

I expected her to be really reticent with us. After all, here Mariah and I are two people she's never met in her apartment with recording equipment. But she's actually incredibly forthcoming, and she talks mostly to me. I get the sense that maybe all of this is actually easier to say to a stranger. And as we talk, Joe is sitting next to her on the couch, and I get the sense that they are hearing most of this for the first time.

I think because I was so used to that growing up already with the way my mom did things that like you don't think it's weird. You know, it's not until somebody's like, "That's weird," that you even consider it to be something off. You know, like I get to my aunt's house and I'm like, "Yeah, this guy Doug gave me this bike." And she's like, "Who's Doug?" And I'm like, "My mom's friend from on the road." And she's like, "How did you meet Doug?"

We met him at a truck stop and we ate breakfast. You know, like, it was just like saying, you know, you had a hamburger for lunch. You know, it just wasn't dramatic or traumatizing or anything. It just was. Whatever you grew up with as a kid is your normal. You don't think about it, yeah. And it's not until later when you're like, oh. Yeah, that was fun. That's weird.

- That's problematic. - You know? And it wasn't like, it was weird too, 'cause mom saw him again after that. He drove to Hutch and we were staying with Terry and Jamie and Doug was the truck guy, the truck driver. I knew his name was Doug, I don't know his last name. But he did come and he showed up in Hutch and parked outside of Terry's place over on California Street for like a day or two.

So it's not like- With like his big semi. Yeah, like it didn't have a trailer, but it was the full semi, like with a full cab. Whoa. So- Did she have the CB radio like in the car all the time? Was it like in the house? It was always in the car.

Yeah. What's a CB radio? It's like what truckers use to communicate with each other. Oh. I don't, I think because we travel a lot from, she explained it because we traveled from Minnesota to Florida quite often to see family, which whatever state we were living in, that it was just a fun thing. So like everybody had their call tags and stuff, you know, and, you know, so she would just like chat with truck drivers on the road each way. Oh, wow.

The picture Crystal paints of life with Donna is a chaotic one. Different men and their trucks coming in and out, and Donna's alcoholism in various stages of bad and worse. And then into all this mess comes Joe. Can you tell us that you remember, like, you know, when Joe was, you know, more like a child you could interact with? And, like, what memories do you have? I probably interacted with her most forever. I took care of her so much that...

I would, I'd be asked by random strangers if she was my kid. And I'm like, no, that'd be a gross. Cause I'm Simon leave it. You know, that's only a 12 year difference. You know, like that, that wasn't something that like I even considered a thing, but people would ask me that. And so, you know, it was just, I, if, if she was sick and, you know, couldn't, couldn't go to school or daycare growing up or whatever it was like, I had to stay home and I, I watched, you know, like,

incredibly parentified immediately, which wasn't too different from growing up because, you know, my aunt and uncles, like if I was there, you know, my husband always would be talking about it as if I was like a Cinderella.

It's clear that no one ever let Crystal just be a kid. At her aunt and uncle's house, she remembers being expected to do chores, even though her cousins weren't. Everything came with conditions. By the way, as Crystal tells us more of her story here, you'll hear her dog chiming in with some words of support.

I took care of Joe more than my mom did. And then as soon as I hit 16, like, well, 15, I started babysitting a lot more and like doing odd jobs. And I was the one that paid for school supplies. I was the one that paid for clothing so that she, you know, had stuff to wear when she was in school. Simon, leave it. When I was 16, I had, I was working two jobs, full-time, part-time, and I was in high school, you know, like, and that was like my life until...

Oh boy. I mean, I guess I've always had more than two jobs or two or more jobs. So like it was just always was normal. Like my mom would be like, I don't have money. Or mom would go and she got like a cell phone plan. And she's like, happy baby, you know, your 16th birthday. Here's your cell phone. But you have to pay the bill.

And then, like, you know, maybe a couple months have been by and I was just paying my phone bill. And she'd be like, "Well, I don't have money for my phone bill, so you either have to pay the whole thing or your phone is also going to go away because you're on our plan. And you can't at 16 and 17 get your own phone plan." So, like, it kind of started there where, like, I was starting to pay her bills. And then I was paying, you know, like,

It just kept getting amped up more and more until I basically had no money for myself to do stuff. Yeah, you definitely were the only person that fed me. You were the only way I ever got clothes outside of hand-me-downs from neighbors and stuff. But I just felt like that's what family does. You look out for each other, you take and you buy it. You take less for yourself if you have to. Looking back on that now,

Like, obviously it brings tears because it was really hard. Other than Jamie, I didn't have friends. Sorry to break down. It's just, it was so hard. It was clear listening to Crystal that she loved Joe and also that her mother had put her in a terrible position. And this wasn't simply a function of Donna's neglect, as Bjorker explains. This was entirely by design. The siblings of victims of Munchausen by proxy abuse...

all say how they were divided and split by their abusive mother. The abusive mother did everything they could to pit the children against each other, to keep them hating each other. Because, heaven forbid, if the siblings got together and shared their experience, it'd be two against mom, right? And so these mothers have like a driven instinct

to keep one of the kids from ever really hearing what's going on that's bad from the other. So splitting, and we know splitting is a function of narcissists and people who abuse in other ways, is keep them separated. So even if a child in the house doesn't experience medical child abuse at the hands of their parents, the experience of being raised by a perpetrator is deeply traumatizing.

Because many of them didn't know the term Munchausen by proxy at the time their siblings were being abused, they just thought that there was torture going on in the house. And they would also be abused by the torture. Like many of them will say, yeah, I was locked in my room. I was just kept in my room. I didn't even realize what all was going on in that hospital room down the hall in our home. I was just locked out.

One of the ways that this abuse is so insidious is the secrecy and shame that it creates within the entire family system.

the children aren't able to turn to their primary caregiver for the support that they need. And the dynamics created by that parent also often inhibit them from getting care anywhere else, leaving them completely isolated. We don't know if Crystal was subjected to any of the medical abuse that Joe was, or even how much awareness she had of what was really going on with Joe's health. But it's clear that she suffered neglect as well as emotional and financial abuse. Because I was kicked out at 17,

You're not able to get an apartment. You're not able to do anything. So I had to work every other weekend at Target, plus whatever other jobs I was working. And I'd have Joe on other weekends. So like, even if I wasn't the full-time parent because I got kicked out because mom got a wild hair up her ass again, for whatever reason, probably because I wasn't getting any more money. You know, I still had those responsibilities and I made sure when I had Joe, we would go

Every weekend we'd go to the St. Cloud or we'd go to the Mall of America. We'd just go do something just to get out, just to have some fun because, you know, it sucked for me too, just being on my own. But like then after that, like I couldn't afford that apartment anymore because layoffs happened. But then I ended up having to move back in at home with mom. And that was just terrible because all of my paychecks once again had to go back to her.

You know, she was like, "Well, they're raising my rent. They're raising my rent." And then I find out after I move out that mom's rent was $20 a month because it's income-based. And she was charging me like $500 a month. And I think a lot of places, and it's like a common thing where

If you're down and out, people want to keep you there so you can't do better for yourself, right? Like places like apartments, right? They're going to continue to raise your rent to offset any pay increases you get because then you can't leave, right? They just want to keep you here making your money. And that was the same thing with mom. She just wanted to keep the money so that I couldn't leave and I couldn't go and do things for myself, right?

I understand that like, you know, addiction and that kind of thing have sort of exacerbated some of these things. Do you remember kind of a different version of your mom? Yeah, I mean, I don't think she was always this way. She was always aloof, right? Where she would just, you know, one day you think everything's fine, the next day she's moving. We're moving right now, you know, by the end of the week, we'll be gone out of this town. And it's like, well, and we would, we would be gone.

And so that was always her thing. Depending on which guy she was with, she could be more or less violent. It kind of just depended on who she was with and how the relationship was going. - Violent, violent. - Oh yeah, oh yeah. You know, oh yeah. And I like, you know, when Joe came along, like I knew that it was my place to be that buffer too, so that it wouldn't be her in that like firing line of like, 'cause shit.

When I was like five, six, she was with Cliff. We were living in Biskey and she would brag to people that she hit me so hard my nose bleed. And I do remember it. I remember sitting in my bed with my nose just blood gushing everywhere and she was proud of it. You know, later on, oh gosh, I was in high school. It was probably

maybe closer to senior year. And I decided I was going to dump out her booze because I was just tired of it. And she pulled a knife, you know, so my mom always had this. I don't, I don't know that she necessarily would have done it or if it was just a threat, I wasn't going to take that, that

that chance because mom's favorite phrase growing up is, I brought you into this world. I can take you out. There's nobody that can stop me. There's no rules that say I can't. And it's like, well, no, that's murder. And she's like, well, no, because you're my kid. That doesn't, it's not murder, you know? So she, but she talked a lot more than acted a lot, especially as I got older and I stood up for myself. I stood up for everybody else. Like

I don't know that she actually would have acted on a lot of it because I think she tried to hit me once and I went back after her. And that was, I think, the last time she tried to hit me. You know, and that was middle school. So, like, she's always been pretty violent, especially if she's drinking. She could definitely be a lot more violent. Did anyone try to intervene? With me? No. No. No. No, my family thought because I wasn't home with mom all the time that...

it wasn't a big deal. But nobody really took steps until I think the first time CPS was even called, which was maybe one or two. And that was the first time that anybody has ever stepped in in our lives. And they just came in and then they left because Dale showed up and they were like, everything's safe again. So like in McLeod County is really bad about

child protective services here. They're really, really bad about it in this area. And I don't know if it's a small town, like if they're understaffed or what it is, but this town is really bad for protecting its youth.

It has always been clear to me that Joe loves Crystal. And I can tell sitting here that Crystal loves them too. But their relationship is complicated. And when Joe began sharing their story publicly, first on social media and then later in a much more public fashion on national television, it caused a rift between the siblings. So as much as Donna had been fine shirking off all the responsibilities of raising Joe to her older daughter, she'd also done plenty to poison the two against one another.

This conversation is one that Donna never wanted to happen. So one of the reasons that we really wanted to talk to you, and I'm glad we're getting to have this conversation, is so I've known Joe for years, and I've heard a lot about you, and Joe consistently mentions you as one of the people who protected them and really kept them alive through their childhood. And...

I just wonder, like, what is it like for you to know that you played that role? It's going to make me cry again because, like, to be fair, I didn't think that she felt that way. Is that surprising to you that she was mean? It is. And it's not to make you feel bad. Not at all. But when we had that fallout back when we were living in Indian Prairie, a lot of things got said. And Facebook posts were made and stuff that...

Said family. I never had family. I never had this. I never had that and I was never excluded from it. Um So I for the longest time I always thought that what I did didn't matter and It has caused a lot of stress anxiety You know some depression in a way because not making a fault because that's not what it is, right? But like it's like my feelings are my own on that. Um, I did hurtful things but like I

I sensed that happened. I just, I felt like nothing I did mattered. That I was blamed just as much as my mom or these other people that should have done it. Even though I myself was a kid. But like, I was a child raising a child that wasn't mine. And I thought that I was doing the best I could with the tools I had, which wasn't much because I didn't have...

That forced my life to even really know what being a parent was. This feels like a huge moment, being with these two in the room. There's this sense of a wall finally coming down. And they go from talking mostly directly to me to finally talking to each other.

Jo, do you want to... I feel like we've heard some of the ways you've expressed how much your sister needs to you. And do you want to share with that? Yeah. It's hard. It's hard to talk about that emotional thing. It's...

I mean, definitely, like, we had a falling out, and, like, I definitely said so many hurtful things, and I think, you know, we both went through a lot of trauma and through a lot of shit, and, like, I didn't know how to have a healthy relationship. I couldn't, at that point, like, I couldn't understand, like, how you're literally the reason I'm alive. Like, I couldn't wrap my head around that or understand that. Like, I still didn't really understand why.

what either of us had been through. And honestly, like, I've learned more about what you've been through today than I ever have. You know, like, you obviously don't usually talk about any of it for, I'm sure, a lot of reasons. But, like, I've just, like, missed you so much. And I think as I've, like, really learned, like, how much...

The stuff with mom really strained all of my relationships with everyone. And through adult eyes, when I look back, like you said, you were parentified and all of that, and you were a kid. You should have never, ever had to do all the things that you did

for me and a hate that you had to do all of that. And obviously I'm like forever grateful because I wouldn't be sitting here alive right now. Not to interrupt, but like, that's why I never said anything. Yeah. That's why I never talked about it because I didn't take it as a burden, you know? Even if it was difficult, I never took it as a burden, you know? Yeah. Yeah, we were best friends. You know, like it's just, it's what I had to do. And that sucks. And...

Like, I don't regret it. Like, even after the fallout, I don't regret it. But I didn't talk to you about it because I just didn't want you to feel heavy with that. Yeah. And what it did to, you know, everything else. Like, I just didn't want you to feel it. I mean, I definitely feel heavy. No, I don't. I mean, it hurts. Like, I hate that you went through what you went through.

to take care of me. And I see it more as like you were put in that position, not because of me, but because of like mom and like other people. Like it wasn't either of our doing, but it sucks. I think how much I think it like really affected me like later on and you. And I think, yeah, it's just,

I talk about you all the time and how important you are in my life. I still only call you sister. Most people never know your name because you're just sister. I like do art on your birthday every year about how much I miss you. Like I...

All I've ever wanted is a relationship with you, and I know it's been so strained. One, because of our fallout, and then two, I think because of everything that we were put through and all of that. I know we've been talking a little bit more here and there, and it's been kind of weird, but also really nice. Or when we got lunch more recently, that was one of the...

Like, best memories that I, like, have in a really, really long time because it felt like I finally, like, have my family again. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when you left, like, like a child leaving, you know, like, you don't know who you are without that person, you know, like. We were attached at the hip.

Munchausen by proxy abuse doesn't just endanger the lives and well-being of the child victims. It really hollows out entire families. Perpetrators of this abuse split everyone in their children's lives in order to maintain control. You're with them or you're against them.

I've accepted at this point that I'm not going to get to see my niece and nephew until they're adults. And that even if they're willing to meet me, the work of dispelling whatever it is that they've been told about not just me, but our entire side of the family is going to be a daunting task. But as I watched Joe and Crystal reach out to one another across the divide that their mother's abuse created, I moved and inspired.

Daunting, yes, but maybe not impossible. Just that I love you so much and I'm so grateful that you did this. More just like getting to hear, like talk more deeply than we have in so many years. And I just, yeah, I hope you know that like, that I love you so deeply and I'm forever grateful for you.

everything that you've done in my life and for raising me when you shouldn't have ever had to. And yeah, all those memories are there. I just don't want you to go forward thinking like, like it's one thing to be grateful for it, right? But I just don't want you thinking that like, I don't want you thinking that it was that burden. I really don't. So like, I just don't like, like the way you talk about it, like, you know, makes it feel like

At that time it wasn't a big thing for me. Yeah. So like, um... No, I don't feel like a burden. Yeah, I just, I don't want you to come go away with any of those those feelings that I thought it was like a negative thing because I didn't. It wasn't until like that big fallout that it even started to feel like maybe like I had done a lot of wrong things or something like so it took a long time to even get to that. Yeah. Um...

Otherwise, you know, if it had to be all done over again, I don't know that I would have changed a whole lot. So luckily it doesn't have to be done all over again, but, you know. It's not like a try time around.

This day has been a roller coaster. This was a conversation Joe never really thought would happen. And now that it had, even though it had lifted a weight between the siblings, it was a lot to process. Later that night, after we decompressed and had dinner together, Joe recorded an audio diary from our hotel. I'm really struggling tonight. It's really hard. It's really hard. It's one thing to recognize, like...

So much work. To like hold my truth and all of that. To have other people validate it. It just makes it so much more real. Hearing all that my sister has also endured. Like there's nothing that I could have done. I wasn't even alive. But it just breaks my heart because she really has always tried to be so caring. And I just hate that she's been so hurt. I hate all of it.

I hate that it's all real, that none of it was in my head. It hits me really hard listening to this because I just relate to it so hard. Joe's describing this sort of decades-long process of facing this horrible truth about someone that you love. And, like, you know you have to face it, and yet you still wish with all your heart that

that it wasn't true. You're always hoping that something's going to come to light that makes you realize that maybe it wasn't as bad as you thought it was. And the opposite keeps happening. It turns out to be worse. I feel really honored to be able to go on this journey with Joe because Joe is someone I care about a lot. I'm also doing it for myself so that when I get there,

If I get there, if I get the chance to be in a room with my niece and nephew, that I'll know the way. And so just as I'm with them while they're going through this, I know that they'll be with me when I'm making these attempts to rebuild, to build to begin with, I guess, a relationship with my niece and nephew. Hope about this situation with my sister is something that has been elusive over the years. And

Every time I've felt hope about the situation, it's been completely dashed. And that sort of going up and down, that roller coaster of, okay, someone's called, you know, there's an investigation, they're going to do something. And then having that come to nothing has just been so grueling and made me feel so helpless and

I'm watching Joe take control of their own destiny in a way and being really, you know, active in trying to rebuild the relationships that they actually want. It's an incredible thing to witness. And it just reinforces for me everything that I had been trying to do with this show and with this project, which is so that none of us have to be alone.

I think this is one of my core beliefs as someone who has spent my whole professional life being a storyteller, right? Like, first as a novelist and now with the show, telling our stories, listening to other people's stories, empathizing with one another. It can help. It doesn't fix things, but it does help. Watching Joe go through this, reassemble their life story, rebuild some of these relationships...

This is how you start to put a human being back together. Next time, we unravel one of Joe's biggest childhood mysteries. I thought, I just thought that was common knowledge. I didn't realize that anybody ever thought that Dale was your dad. I mean. Matt White? Yeah. Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and produced by me, Andrea Dunlop.

Our senior producer and editor is Mariah Gossett. Greta Stromquist is our associate producer. And administrative support from Nola Karmush. Music provided by Johnny Nicholson and Joel Shupak. With additional music and sounds from SoundSnap. And thank you to Cadence 3 for additional recording support.

If you'd like to support the show, the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon, where you can get all episodes early and ad-free, along with extended cuts and deleted scenes from this season, as well as two exclusive bonus episodes every month.

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