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Nobody Should Believe Me is a production of Large Media. That's L-A-R-J Media. Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show we discuss child abuse and this content may be difficult for some listeners. If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to MunchausenSupport.com to connect with professionals who can help. If you are curious about this show and the topic of Munchausen by proxy, follow me on Instagram at Andrea Dunlop.
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Hi, I'm Andrea Dunlop and this is Nobody Should Believe Me. He's the most terrifying serial killer you've never heard of. Haddon Clark has confessed to several murders, but investigators say he could have over 100 victims. At the center of the mayhem, a cellmate of Haddon's that was able to get key evidence into Haddon's murder spree across America.
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I am responding to all of those messages as quickly as I possibly can, and I love hearing your feedback and your stories. We have been blown away by the response to this show and are so grateful to you for listening. This is a bonus episode, so if you haven't listened to episode five, where we first hear from Doug, go listen to that one first. This is our follow-up conversation with him in which we discuss what's happening with his family now.
I wanted to reiterate that though Doug's ex-wife, Mary Welch, was criminally indicted for medical child abuse, the DA ultimately dropped the charges. We are including some of the media coverage of the case, as well as Detective Mike Weber's arrest warrant in its entirety in the show notes. Well, hi, Doug. Hello. How are you? I am good. It's really nice to see your face. It's been almost a year and a half since we first interviewed you in Fort Worth.
That's correct. Now, at that time, during the summer of 2021, you did your interview with us under a pseudonym. So you've changed your mind about wanting to be anonymous. So I want to just start off with talking about why we originally made that decision to do the interview anonymously and what's changed. The things that have changed are, first,
Duke is now 19. And secondly, Mary has tried to take him in for another brain surgery to have the shunt reinserted here in Fort Worth. So I realized I should have started us off with, can you tell us your full name and the name of your son and his mother? My name is Doug Welch.
I am the father of Duke Welch, and his mother's name is Mary Welch. So when you found out this news, I mean, tell us about that.
Well, I received a letter from the insurance company. I still carry insurance on Duke and his sister. And I received a letter from the insurance company indicating that he had been approved for a surgery for his brain shut to be reinstalled.
And consequently, I followed up to find out exactly the details with the insurance company. They weren't able to provide me a lot of details. So I turned to my support group. That would be Mike Weber, yourself, Bea Yorker, and spoke to you folks about
what that meant and how that would now play out since he was 19. Yeah, and when was this that you found that out? On the 24th of last month. October. Of October, yes. Let's talk about why originally we wanted to leave the names out of this story because that was a conversation that you and I had, and I think you and I are in somewhat similar...
Positions in that we went through extensive investigations with family members, in your case, your ex-wife, and in my case, my sister. Ultimately, those investigations did not result in, in your case, a conviction for Mary, although she was criminally indicted.
And in my case, did not result in criminal charges of any kind. And the family courts in both cases returned the children to the mothers. And I think both you and I feel let down by the system. Absolutely. And it makes it much more complicated to talk about publicly.
especially when that happens because I think that enables the other side to sort of cast a lot of doubt on our version of events, even if there is evidence to back up our concern. So I think that is, those are some of the reasons probably that we really decided initially that it might be better to do it
to do it anonymously. Yes, and my goal never was to do anything other than protect Duke from additional medications, additional surgeries, more invasive things that could truly impact his, not only his life now, but his future. And then the second thing was
that is important to me is to help others understand that there's people they can turn to to help when they find themselves in a similar situation. Um,
When I first was made aware of this that was going on, my struggle immediately was where to get information about this.
child abuse and who to turn to to talk with about this insidious crime that was being perpetrated on my son. In fact, I originally had to be convinced that this was truly medical child abuse instead of a caring mom. And my goal was
is not to now be vindictive, but to raise awareness. I appreciate that. And I'm glad you brought that up because in fact, Mary has, so we should say also that Mary's position has changed in terms of sort of who she is in the world because she now actually holds a public office. Is that right? Yeah.
Yes, she is a city council member in Grandview, Texas. And during her campaign for office, because this case was originally covered in the media after she was criminally charged, it's my understanding that her opponent did bring that up during the campaign. Mary made a public statement on her Facebook that essentially blamed her
Right.
I didn't like to see, but it is where she was herself at that time, was trying to convince her constituents that I was the bad guy. Right. And in fact, that's just inaccurate because you were not the person who reported Mary to the authorities. Right.
No, I did not. That's something important to know. I am not the person who reported Mary. In fact, as I said a moment ago, I was first stunned by the information and was difficult to convince that this was medical child abuse based on what I had seen with Duke and
I came to understand that a lot of what I was seeing was drug-induced, and a lot of what she was presenting was Duke's problems of getting around and taking care of himself as a young boy were difficult for him because of all the drugs she had him on. So...
I want to take us back to this new information that came out a couple of weeks ago that Duke was having the shunt placed back in his brain, that he had a scheduled surgery to do that. And just to remind listeners, one of the big things that came to light during the investigation was that the shunt that Duke had in his brain had been determined by doctors that it was unnecessary. Duke's shunt was inoperable.
at one point, and he was taken locally here in Fort Worth to Cook Children's Hospital, where the doctors there were absolutely sure that he did not need the shunt. So when you found out this information about Duke's surgery this past month, and you spoke to a couple of people who are in your support system...
What did they tell you that made you decide that it could be helpful to the situation to name Mary, essentially?
they explained to me that I had ways to stop the surgery if I was able to get out ahead of it. And one of those ways was to go directly to the doctor's office and present the doctor's office with the facts about Duke's past. And to be clear about that, I wasn't suggesting that
that he did not need a shunt. What I wanted to make sure of is that his mother wasn't telling the doctor things, coaching Duke to saying things that would
that would make a doctor think that he needed the shunt. So I was simply asking for a second opinion without mom present for Duke to describe his symptoms
And then let that second opinion either agree or disagree with whether he needed the shunt. And I guess that's been the problem that I have faced all along is I have not been made aware in advance of anything that Mary said.
has told the doctors about his symptoms. And that's wrong to not have shared with me while he was under 18. And I don't want to see it continue into adult adulthood. I went to the doctor's office and presented them with the information that I had available about the past.
I also contacted the insurance company and explained to them that I felt that this could possibly be a case of adult abuse and that they needed to look more closely and get a second opinion before they approved their payment for the surgery. And I understand that.
that the surgery did not occur. I have not heard from Duke, and I have not heard from his mother, Mary, whether that happened. I'm a little bit surprised that I haven't had any backlash from Mary, but at this point, I've heard nothing. Okay. Well, that's good news. I think we can count that as good news if the surgery hasn't
Absolutely great news that the surgery will stop. I mean, that just creates a boundary between what Mary has done in the past and what Duke will do for himself in the future. He needs to have a voice. Yeah, that's a great way of putting it. I think something that I've learned.
realized in working with now some adult survivors is that obviously you have control over your own medical stuff once you turn 18 legally, but many survivors are still on their parents' insurance, living with, I mean, most young people are still, you know, really under the influence of their parents at 18, 19, 20 years old. And certainly, you know,
For the survivors that I've talked to, it wasn't until they, you know, were in their mid-20s or later where they really had some kind of significant, you know, they moved away from home or went to college or something that really sort of
separated them. So I think we have this idea in our head sometimes maybe of, oh, you just become this completely independent person at 18. But, you know, the reality is for a lot of young people at 19 that they're still pretty heavily influenced by their parents. And so I think it's not quite the clean slate that you would hope it be. But of course, legally, Duke does have control over his medical decisions now.
That's correct. He certainly has control over his medical situation, but he is absolutely influenced by his mother and his grandparents in the things that he has believed about himself, which is difficult for me to understand because he did go through a period when he lived with me
with me and my wife, that he did go through that period where he was on no medication and he didn't need a shunt and he was perfectly healthy. And she must have incredible convincing skills because now he's back to needing a shunt all of a sudden.
Well, I don't see that. Yeah, I think that, you know, it's it speaks to two things. I mean, I think it speaks to in some cases, perpetrators, you know, are extremely convincing people. Right. And that's how they they pull off. Obviously, you were convinced by Mary for many years and you were right there. You observed Doug having different or excuse me, you observed Duke having different symptoms at your house than he had at Mary's house. But it wasn't until you were really confronted with
you know, really significant evidence that you were able to see what was going on. So I think we can also understand that a minor child who's in that situation is going to be really subject to that parent's influence. And I think the second thing, again, to sort of circle back to how challenging things become if we feel like the system does make a bad call, that really gives the parent who'd been investigated a lot of...
ammunition to say, see, I was right all along. I made all the right decisions. You always were sick. I was the one protecting you. I was the one. I was the only reason that you were healthy. You need to listen to me. So you can see how the system ending up the way it has when you have a bad call, that that really reinforces that parent's position.
The disconnect between what was really happening and the, if you will, the outcome of Duke's situation as a minor were incredible. He was given back to his mom, his grandparents. As a group, they've got him going down the same path he was before.
that I thought I had stopped. And if there's an area where things really get skewed, it's the family court system that lets you down. They just don't want to believe that something like this happened. They see it as a husband trying to
gain control of a situation by accusing the wife of some wrongdoing when in fact
There were doctors who were willing to testify who were at the courtroom that day, and the judge wouldn't listen to them, wouldn't let them come on the stand to be able to testify that he did not need this medical treatment that Mary had due gaunt.
I'm glad you brought that up because I don't think that people understand, unless they've had some dealings with family court, that a family court judge can listen to or not listen to or allow to testify or not testify pretty much at will. But it's very different than a criminal trial where there's these procedures and you have a jury of your peers and the evidence is, you know, the evidence that gets submitted has to be seen. It's a really different procedure. So in my case—
There were two doctors that testified against my sister, and the judge just decided not to take that into account. That's correct. Which is baffling. Yeah, they just don't listen to the other medical professionals. It's amazing to me how mom can tell the family court something
And they don't want to listen to medical professionals who want to simply provide the facts about a child's
physical health and the chart that they have or the charting that they have done over his life to look at his situation. It's worth noting that, of course, the judge is not going to go through the medical records themselves. And so there, you know, should be
to my mind, be relying on the experts that are going through what is often tens of thousands of pages of medical records to find these discrepancies and to see whether or not essentially there is evidence of abuse or not. So that to me is the key piece of any of these medical child abuse investigations. And yet that often gets completely disregarded, which is just
It truly is quite baffling and sort of speaks to the lack of education on this issue. So you mentioned that one of the things that you wanted to do was just really help educate. After you found out about this surgery, you and I talked and you had mentioned to me that you regretted doing the interview anonymously and that you wish you had just said everyone's names.
And that's why I offered to you to come back on and have a follow-up interview because I really wanted to give you a voice. And I think something that we've talked about is that because it's so difficult to talk about cases that don't get a conviction...
It makes it seem from the outside as though this crime is way more rare than it is because if you're only hearing it because convictions are rare. All of the experts that we've spoken to for this podcast have told us they do not believe that it is actually rare. They believe it's underdiagnosed. So if you're only talking about cases with convictions, then it really lends credence to this idea that the crime is rare.
So I wonder if you can kind of talk about what you hope naming the people in this story will accomplish. I think as much as anything, the family court system needs to be open to hearing the evidence and there needs to be better communication from hospital to hospital as possible.
a mom doctor shops, if there were a way for every hospital to know where she had gone and was told he was fine, then perhaps
things like this newest surgery would not be an issue if they knew the medical records as closely as they should before they do a brain surgery. Would they really go right in and do that based on what mom has said? Because if you'll recall from my previous interviews,
Mary has played herself as a NICU nurse to some people. And she never was a nurse. She never was a NICU nurse. But there's an incredible amount of testimony where others have said she has played herself as having that position at some point in her life. Yeah, there are, to be clear, there are multiple sworn affidavits to that.
statement that you just made, that she has presented herself as a nurse. Putting this out in the public is one way. I think, you know, the media can be a tool when systems fail. And I think that that's why we really were very supportive of you coming back on. Where do things stand with you and your two children, Duke and Adeline, now? Again,
That goes back to the power of persuasion of Duke's and Adeline's grandparents and their mother. They have been convinced that I'm a terrible monster, that I have done this all to be vindictive against their mother, that what the...
Detected, determined was a real crime is not true. They're young enough where they haven't seen or read any of the
affidavits or the information provided through the legal process. And I want them to know that dad wasn't trying to hurt anyone. He was trying to save his son from unnecessary medical procedures. Have you tried to reach out?
I did not have any way to reach out to the kids for three or four years except through mom's cell phone, which I never got any response for. And I've sent birthday and Christmas checks to the kids, you know, with nothing other than a check and a note that says, I love you.
And those checks have never been cashed. So I have no idea where the kids ever saw them. The last time I saw them was on a Christmas morning when I went to pick them up and they wouldn't even come near the car.
and ultimately ran back. Even though it was my time to have them, they did not come with me, and I haven't seen or spoken to them since then. This Christmas, it will be four years, I guess. That's devastating. I'm so sorry. That's pretty hard to make sense out of, that the kids saw that
how healthy and happy Duke was when he was in my custody. Both kids did. And...
Played baseball, played basketball, ran cross country in high school, was taken out of a school for autistic kids and put into regular school. You know, he his life was that of a perfectly, typically normal young person going through school. And since then, I fear nothing.
that she's got him on the same track. And my fear comes out of this plan to have the shunt reinserted at this point. Yeah. I want to say about that two things. First, I think that just speaks to how relentlessly manipulative these situations can be. And I think that
One of the things that has absolutely tormented me, and I'm sure has tormented you, is looking at not just the kids, because I think we can understand that kids and young people are by their very nature susceptible, especially to their parents and especially to their mother. I have little kids. They just...
you know, they're very credulous. That's their nature. So even if they had this sort of period where, you know, you would hope that that would snap them out of it,
It may not yet. And I think we can see that, like, as you said, Mary's parents and Mary's family, they are grown adults who did not grow up under her persuasion. And yet they are able to dismiss the evidence and carry on believing what they believe. And that is the same way that I feel about some of those folks surrounding Mary.
my sister and the ways in which they absolutely dismissed everything that I've said, everything that my parents have said, everything that the doctors have said. You know, you just think, like, how many years can someone just dismiss all of these things? How could all of this possibly be a coincidence? But I think that that just really speaks to the nature of belief is stronger than evidence. The other thing that I want to say is, again, something that I've heard from now multiple survivors is that
They had those periods. You know, the reality is all of the survivors that I have met were not permanently separated from their abusers. So, again, sort of speaking to the most likely outcome here, the system is not working as it should. I feel pretty, you know, assured in saying that, having talked to the experts and survivors anecdotally. So, yeah.
But they often did have these periods where there was a court case, they were separated from their abuser for a period of time. And, you know, that's one of—they refer to that as a separation test. That's part of how they do an investigation for Munchausen by proxy, right? If you separate the kid and they miraculously, all their issues resolved, that's a pretty strong testament to the fact that it's being caused by the parent. So if they did have one of those periods where they were healthy for a while, even if it doesn't snap them out of it right away—
they can look back on that time period as an anchor. And that may help them later on rebuild the story of their life and be able to have a starting place from rebuilding their self-image as a healthy person. So it may be that that just hasn't happened yet. That doesn't mean that it won't ever happen. That doesn't mean it will ever happen. And it certainly...
doesn't mean it has happened up to this point or there wouldn't be a new surgery on the horizon without a second opinion. And you're right. The situation that
accusers will use that word. In my case, I would say father. I would say non-offending parent is the term I would use, not accuser. Because you were not the accuser. You did not accuse her. You had to be convinced. I really want to make sure that listeners understand that the people who reported Mary, you know, the school where your son was or the original report and there were other reports and there were doctor's reports and affidavits and there was a mountain of evidence that you were confronted with
to get you to believe what was happening. You did not accuse Mary of anything. You know what? That is a good point. I've got to, I've really got to get that in my heart that I'm not the accuser. I'm glad that you stated that because the reality is I did have to be convinced that what she was doing was wrong and it took evidence.
for me to be convinced. It took evidence presented by third parties. Multiple times. You did not come around in the first conversation. I've seen a lot of the documentation with this case. That's correct. I did not come around the first time. And it was hard for me to believe that a mother would do this.
And it took evidence. I'll restate that same thing. I didn't come around the first time. And looking back, I tried to do research to find out what the reality was. And there weren't the tools that there are now to turn to. One of the things that I hope other people who are seeing this happen...
I hope they have a place to turn. I hope through my journey that I've opened up a way for others to get help when they find themselves in this position where they can turn to experts who will help them. Because that was a...
That was a hurdle for me, was finding someone who I could talk to who had a different view than what I was told by mom. Yeah, and that just speaks to kind of the isolation that everyone's in in these situations. I appreciate your courage in coming on here. And just one last thing, if your kids are listening...
If they listen in the future, what would you like to say to them? Oh, don't do this. I just want them to know that I love them, that I care so much for them, that I just love them and want the best for them. I'd love to be in their lives as they get older. And I hope someday...
that they will hear this and know that their daddy still loves them just like he did when they were just like he did when they were three and four and 10 and 12 and all of those years. And I miss them terribly. Thank you, Doug. And that's all I can say about that.
If you've been listening to this podcast and some of the details sound very familiar to you from your own life or someone that you know, please visit us at MunchausenSupport.com. We have resources there from some of the top experts in the country, and we can connect you with professionals who can help.
Nobody Should Believe Me is a production of Large Media. Our lead producer is Tina Knoll. The show was edited by Lisa Gray with help from Wendy Nardi. Jeff Gall is our sound engineer. Additional scoring and music by Johnny Nicholson and Joel Shupak. Also special thanks to Maria Paliologos, Joelle Knoll, and Katie Klein for project coordination. I'm your host and executive producer, Andrea Dunlop.