The Cher Episode
51:11 Share

Hey, everybody. During Cybersecurity Awareness Month, LifeLock wants to give you helpful tips to protect your identity. Using multi-factor authentication can be a line of defense to help protect your personal information, like getting a text with a security code. But LifeLock offers comprehensive protection against identity theft. LifeLock not only alerts you to suspicious uses of your personal information, but also fixes issues that arise, guaranteed or your money back.

Protect your identity today with a 30-day free trial at lifelock.com slash cybersafety. Terms apply. Hey, everybody. I want to tell you a little something about Squarespace, the site that lets you build your very own website. If you want to raise funds for a cause with a website that makes accepting donations and managing donors easy, you got to go with Squarespace.

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. ♪♪

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here too. And this is Stuff You Should Know. Stuff You Should Know. Is that your auto-tune? I told you to turn that off. It's stuck on on. It's stuck on awesome. Yeah, and this wasn't even intentional, but here we are doing another biography of another gay icon.

Another D. Well, she's not gay. She's an icon of the gay community, Chuck. Well, that's what I meant. I know. Yeah. I'm just being contrarian already. Yeah, I know. I'm really feeling it. I'm full of P and vinegar today. Oh, we say P and V at our house for our dog Gibson. He's full of P and V all the time. That's awesome. How's he doing?

He's good. He's a lot to handle, but he's an awesome, sweet boy. He's got to be pretty big by now. His paws were huge as a puppy. He is pretty large. I mean, he's a full-grown doggy. Like Clifford large? No, no, no. He's not oversized, but he's a big boy. Well, shout out to Gibson and shout out to Cher, who we're doing an entire episode on right now, as you said. Do you mean Sherilyn Sarkeesian?

Yes, I do. I do. And when I saw that, I was like, I knew she was Armenian. I never thought about it up until this moment, but I just knew she was Armenian in heritage. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think one thing Cher sort of played with over the years was some kind of ambiguous ethnicity. That's one way you could put it. Sure.

But, yeah, she's her father, John Paul Sarkeesian, is Armenian. He was a horse breeder and a truck driver who had addiction troubles. So he got divorced from her mother before Cher was a year old, which would have been 1947 because Cher was born in El Centro, California in 1946. Yeah.

That's right. Oh, you were setting me up. I read, Chuck, that her mother, Georgia, and her father, John Paul, got married two more times. So they were married a total of three times.

Yeah. And I think her mother, Georgia Holt, who was an actress, she was married like eight times. Eight times from what I saw. Yeah. I think Georgia's mom had her when she was 13 or something like that. And so they had a very, Cher had a very interesting upbringing. And I had never seen it compared to mermaids, but it really strikes me from some of the interviews and articles I've read about her, that her upbringing was a lot like Winona Ryder's upbringing in mermaids.

Which is a movie Cher was in, in case you're wondering why that was even brought up. But man, that movie is so good. I saw it for the first time just like last year, and it is a really good movie. Yeah, you know, Cher is one of my favorite actors. When I look through her filmography, it's just like...

It's a murderer's row of great parts and great films. Yeah, for sure. And we'll talk about those. Apparently, as it turns out, she wanted to be a performer from a very young age. I saw something like four. She saw Dumbo and was like, I'm going to be a performer like Dumbo. And she actually kind of put her money where her mouth is. At age 11, I love precocious kids' stories like this. She put on a production of Oklahoma. Yeah.

And apparently could only get other girls to be in the show with her. So she just went ahead and played all the male parts herself. I know that's a great story. And just a few years after that, Warren Beatty would be sleeping with her. Yeah. Like just a few years when she was like 16 and he was 25. Right. Yeah. What is it with powerful men in that?

I mean, Warren Beatty had a long history of dating teenagers back when, you know, back when I'm not going to say it was super cool to do that, but back when you could do that and get away with it without being, you know, without having to kill or something. The guy who knows about it while he's in prison. Exactly. They very famously she was driving in Hollywood when she was 16. He almost hit her with the car.

And she got out and was like, are you crazy? And she was like, oh, my God, you're Warren Beatty. And he was like, why don't you come back to my place and have dinner?

And that's what happened. She came home at 2 in the morning. Her parents were not thrilled, but apparently Warren is very charming and called up Georgia Holt, called up her mom and made his case. And she was like, okay, date my 16-year-old. I know. That was back then when you could just pick up the phone and be like, come on. Right. Exactly.

So Cher dropped out of high school. Not a lot of great performing opportunities while you're in high school. So she dropped out and she tried to make it in showbiz. And initially she wanted to be an actor. But she met another guy who would have a much bigger impact on her life than even Warren Beatty. A guy named Salvatore Bono, better known as Sonny Bono.

He was 12 years older than her rather than just the traditional nine that Warren Beatty had established. The traditional nine. And she was 16, 17, something like that when they met in Los Angeles. And both of them swear that their relationship was platonic at first, that she had moved into a group home with some other women. And apparently that housing opportunity fell through or ran out. And she met Sonny Bono. He's like, why don't you move in with me and clean my house? Yeah.

And that's supposedly how it was at first. And then, of course, it did not last very long. And they got married within two years, I think, although it wasn't legal for another seven or for seven years. Five years. Five is just as good an estimate as seven. Yeah.

Yeah, she was 18 when they got sort of fake married in 1964. They did have a ceremony, but it wasn't a legal wedding. And it became legal, like you said, in 1969. And Sonny was working for music impresario Phil Spector at the time. It was like, hey, this this kid you got has got an outstanding voice.

I also love Cher's voice, by the way. And she started singing backup for Phil Spector on like some really big songs like You've Lost That Love and Feeling by the Righteous Brothers and Be My Baby by the Ronettes. Yeah. So in two years, she's met Warren Beatty and dated him, met Sonny Bono, moved in with him and is singing backup on Phil Spector songs by age 17. Like stuff just started happening for her really quickly. Yeah.

And from that point on, things started happening very quickly because Sonny Bono was making things happen. Like you said, he was working for Phil Spector. And so he was, I guess he and Phil were both like this, she needs like her own career. Apparently there's an anecdote where when she was singing backup on some of those songs, Phil Spector kept telling her to like back up further and further away from the mic because she was overpowering the other backup singers. Yeah.

Um, so it was very clear that she needed her own to go out on her own. Although apparently Phil Spector, um, opposed it at first. Sonny Bono was like, no, we're, we're going to take this girl to really great places and we're going to do it by giving her the pseudonym Bonnie Jo Mason. Yeah, that's right. Her first single, uh, was released. It was called Ringo. I love you as Bonnie Jo Mason. Not, not a great song. Um, and you know, Cher has a Cher has that low, um, I guess it's,

Is it an alto? Yeah, it sounds like this. If I could turn back time.

I meant to look up what her voice technically is, but it's maybe baritone. I don't know. But it's that low. She's got this great, fantastic, powerful, low voice. And apparently there were some radio stations that thought it was a man singing and it was a love song to Ringo Starr. So they refused to play it in some markets. But she was like, you know, it's not a very good song. Not a big deal. But very shortly thereafter, in 1964, would sign with Imperial Records, which is part an imprint of Liberty Records.

And had her first really big hit in 65 with a cover of Bob Dylan's amazing song, All I Really Want to Do. Is Roller Skate, in parentheses. She did a great version, too. I love the production style and the recording quality of those, of like the mid-60s and earlier. It's really good. Yeah, for sure. So she hit like number 15 on the Billboard charts with that single, that cover of Dylan. Yeah.

That's pretty, I mean, seriously, think about this. She just is like, I'm going to go make it on my own. And then it just happened. I'm really impressed by how condensed like her first series of like big exposures were, you know? And so in addition to her performing her, her, her carrying out, I guess her solo career, um,

She also was performing with Sonny, too, as they would become very famous together performing. But at first, they went under the name Caesar and Cleo, apparently as an homage to Sonny's haircut at the time, which she said was somewhere between Caesar's and Napoleon's hair.

I don't know what Napoleon's hair looks like. He had like that big old hat he liked to wear. Yeah, I always had that hat. Cleo was a nod to her ambiguous ethnic looks. People said like you look like a more glamorous Cleopatra. So that's what they went with. And they scuttled that pretty quick.

Yeah, I mean, she kind of played that up, too. She had that's when she was wearing the dark mascara was sort of the the cattails coming off the side and just super, super cool looking, like very tan. And she had that beautiful long black hair. Like I've been watching a lot of Cher stuff and Sonny and Cher from that era today. And I got a big old man crush on her all over again that reminded me of when I had one on her when I was six years old. That's cute from watching the Sonny and Cher show and all that.

Yeah. So, you know, they had some songs together that were not popular like you talked about. But in 65, they rebranded as themselves as Sonny and Cher with that huge, huge number one single. I got you, babe. That the Rolling Stones, who are always champions of them. Yeah. Said, hey, take it over to England. I love your vibe there. Yeah. Apparently in America, they weren't getting much love. Cher, yeah.

says that they were basically hippies before the word hippie was even around. They dressed like hippies, they acted like hippies, and America wasn't ready for hippies yet. But England was like, hey, we're swinging over here, so come on over here. And yeah, it's just so bizarre that the Rolling Stones were the ones who helped get Sonny and Cher their big break because you just do not. That's like Led Zeppelin helping out Donny and Marie in my mind. You know what I mean? It's very similar to that. Oh, boy.

i would argue sunny and cher were two percent cooler oh yeah definitely but it's certainly in the same ballpark you know totally that's funny um that single um i got you babe which is the song they're they're most known for is a duo still i think um sold more than three million copies uh was number one for three weeks and the album was number two for eight weeks and probably would have hit number one had it not been for the fact that the beatles help

was released at the same time and held down that number one spot. Right. Yeah. If you're going to be number two to anybody, that's a pretty good album to be number two to at the time. Yeah, for sure. But they had 10 top 40 singles and five of those were top tens. Not too shabby. No, not at all.

The other thing that they were very much known for was banter, comic banter in between. Apparently, Sonny was the comedic writer between the two. But Cher said in her eulogy of Sonny Bono when he died from a skiing accident in 1998 that –

He, like, people just kind of saw Sonny Bono, especially during their early careers, like the butt of the jokes. He's like the dipwad, I guess, is a technical way to put it. But that he knew that that's what made the most sense with their duo. It made sense for her to be the sharper, more sardonic, smarter one and him to be the butt of the jokes. But she's like, the big joke was he was the one writing the joke. So he kind of had the last laugh in that sense.

Did you watch any of the actual variety show banter today or yesterday? You know, weirdly, I just read a synopsis, a very detailed synopsis of one of their episodes on ShareScholar.com. Yeah, it's I encourage you to check it out. And anyone out there who's like, what was their chemistry like? Because it is.

it's really good stuff. I mean, I watched the second iteration of their show that was out later on, which we'll get to in a sec, but they're just so funny together and you could tell they're having a good time and while it is scripted,

It comes across as very natural and it feels like they're and they may have been improv-ing some of it. But it was just they just had fantastic chemistry and he would she would make short jokes because he was five five and she was she seemed giant compared to him, but she was only five seven. But I think they they put her in heels and stuff like that. And he would make jokes about her prominent nose and.

But she usually got the best of him. But they were just – it was a very cute pairing together. You know, kind of a cute historic comedy pairing. Yeah, all you had to do was put them on TV and let them do their thing and people would fall in love with them. That's what happened. They were guest stars on Carol Burnett back in 1967. They guest hosted some Merv Griffin show episodes.

And just from that, they introduced themselves to America. They're TV chops, I guess. And the head of CBS programming, Fred Silverman, who would go on to executive produce Diagnosis Murder, he gave them their first show in August of 1971. It was a summer replacement. And I feel like such a slack researcher that I didn't go see what that replaced.

Oh, yeah, I didn't either. But then when December came around and it was time for like, OK, what's the real deal shows? It got its own slot and it became like a really big hit. They were pulling in like 30 million viewers a week. I mean, this is I don't think there were 30 million people in America at the time. Yeah, it was it was kind of the early heyday of the variety show, which if you're of a certain age, you remember. But if you're not, you know, variety shows were these

Comedy half hour is usually an hour where they would come out and they would do like an opening monologue and joke around or probably open with a song which would lead into the monologue. And then it was, you know, it was sketches. It was music. They would have musical and comedy guests. It was called the Sonny and Cher Comedy Hour. And it was just there were a lot of these great shows back then. And I pine for those to come back. And I think they could if they did it right. Really? Yeah. I think if you had the right audience.

the right people, and especially like a couple like this is kind of a fun way to do it. I think it could work. I mean, they have some that are like skirting the genre for sure. Yeah.

Yeah, they're terrible. Like, America's Got Talent and The Voice and all that stuff. That's not the same thing. It's not strictly, but some of those are, like, there's so many different acts or different types of acts that it's close. It's just missing, like, the people who host the show, like, having, like, a larger main role in it. You know what I mean? Yeah, I get that. Like, take away the competition aspect.

Get a couple of cutie pies like us to host it. Sure. I mean, I guess my point is be careful what you wish for. Right. No, you're right. Because what are the chances they would do it right? Right. Probably not good. So Sonny Bono is very much tied to Cher and vice versa in most people's mind, in a lot of people's mind, especially older people. But there's another collaborator that a guy who wrote for The New Yorker, his name's Michael Shulman. He said that Bob Mackie,

the very, very famous fashion designer, was probably arguably surpassing Bono as her defining collaborator. Because one thing people know about Cher is that she will wear any over-the-top outfit that Bob Mackie would make for her. And apparently they were very close collaborators. It wasn't like Bob Mackie would say, here, I designed this

Right. Yeah.

Yeah. And to be clear, like this was started on that TV show. It wasn't just the sort of iconic thing she would wear on the red carpet later. Like they've been together since the beginning, basically. Yeah. I think their TV show would have something like 20 different costume changes per episode.

And Bob Mackey was there designing everything. So, yeah, they're very close. I think still, I'm pretty sure Bob Mackey's still around. All right. Well, we're going to go check and see if Bob Mackey is still with us and take a break. And we'll come back with the breaking news right after this. We'll be right back.

Hey, folks, Lululemon knows that feeling good starts with moving more and their workout gear is designed to make that as comfortable as possible. Yeah, let's zero in on the zeroed in short. It's a perfect example of how they combine performance and comfort because it has a smooth waistband that never digs in. Very important. And it's designed to move with you. So it ensures that no matter how intense your workout gets, you'll remain comfortable and focused on it.

That's right. It's also crafted from fabric that dries super fast so you won't have to worry about distractions from moisture during your workouts or your day. It's also available in three different lengths so you can choose the one that suits your style and needs best. Whether you're hitting the gym or going for a run or even just relaxing, these shorts are tailored for versatility and comfort. So are you ready to upgrade your workout wardrobe? Shop for the zeroed-in short now at lululemon.com. ♪ music playing ♪

Toyota's been building for generations, from pioneering hybrid technology to redefining the standards of safety and efficiency. Toyota is always innovating, always making progress. That's right. And with Toyota's legendary lineup of reliable cars in stock at your local Toyota dealer, you can experience the legacy firsthand.

Yep, so check out the unparalleled performance of the new 25 Camry with style, efficiency, and available tech to get you anywhere. Or test drive a capable and affordable Corolla equipped with everything you need to stay cool and connected. And get this, both Camry and Corolla are available with all-wheel drive, giving you the control to go beyond.

Quality, reliability, efficiency. That's the legacy of Toyota. Visit BuyAToyota.com, the official website for deals, to find out more. Toyota, let's go places. ♪ music playing ♪

Attention parents and grandparents. Are you searching for the perfect gift for your kids this holiday season? Well, then give the gift of adventure that will last all year long a Guardian bike. That's right. They're the easiest, safest, and quickest bikes for kids to learn on. Kids are learning to ride in just one day with no training wheels needed. And I got to say, my daughter has a Guardian bike, and she loves riding this thing. It's a big girl bike even, but she can ride it because of the thoughtful engineering, lightweight frame, and...

the kid-friendly components. Yeah, kids love to ride it, obviously, but parents also appreciate the safety features, like the patented braking system that prevents head-over-handlebar accidents. That's right. Guardian bikes are the only kids' bikes designed and assembled in a factory in the USA, ensuring top-notch quality and durability, and they're built to last and make a perfect hand-me-down. So join the hundreds of thousands of happy families by getting a Guardian bike today, and their holiday sales have begun. You can save up to 25% on bikes with no code needed.

All you have to do is sign up for their newsletter. Plus, you'll get free shipping, free bike lock, and a pump with your first purchase. So visit GuardianBikes.com to take advantage of these deals and secure your holiday gifts today. Happy riding!

We learned so much stuff from Josh and Chuck. Stuff you should know. All right, Chuck, so lay it on everybody. Is Bob Mackey, known as the Sultan of Sequence, still alive? I'm glad to say so that he is. He was born in 1940, so Bob Mackey is...

84 years young. Very nice. Still going. Okay. So back to Sonny again. Sonny's spirit is out there like, okay, that's enough about Bob Mackie. Let's get back to me. Right. Okay. So should I take over from here? Yeah. Do Sonny's bidding. All right.

romantically with their marriage, things weren't as successful. Um, Sonny started stepping out and then Cher started stepping out on their marriage. Um, they had some financial issues, which we should be like, how in the world would these huge stars have money trouble? Um, one of the reasons because Sonny was, he controlled everything in their relationship when it came to the business. Um, so he was controlling their money, um,

One of the big things that happened was in 69, he financed a movie called Chastity, putting most of their money into it for Cher to, you know, star in her first movie vehicle. And it was a big flop. It's one of the big rules of movie production is you never put your own money into your own movie. Mm hmm.

Just not smart to do. So it was actually the same year that Chaz Bono was born, which is their son who very famously transitioned in 2008 because Chaz was assigned female at birth. Right.

And that's another thing that Cher would become very famous for is championing trans rights in large part because of her experience with Chaz, her son. And she's become a real, as we'll see, I think, as you mentioned at the outset, a gay icon and also a huge she has a huge following in the trans community, too.

Yeah, absolutely. So by 1973, Sonny and Cher Show are still going on, still going pretty strong. And for all intents and purposes, Sonny is married to a former cigarette girl in a club called named Connie Foreman. But for the public's information, they were still together. Sonny and Cher were finally they're like, OK, this isn't sustainable anymore. And they started to get divorced in 1974. Yeah.

And you said that Sonny had total control over their finances, right? Yeah. He had even more control than she realized. Like, I think she just thought like he handled that stuff. But as they were getting divorced, her own lawyer was like, you know, the company that was built on your talent, it's actually called Share Enterprises. You own 0% of that.

Sonny owns 95% and the lawyer that runs the thing owns the other five. You own nothing. And she's like, oh my God, really? That's crazy. And the lawyer's like, no, no, it gets even worse.

You've been signing contracts that you haven't been reading, haven't you? And she's like, yeah, I guess. This is a paraphrase, by the way, or an imagined conversation. And he said, you signed a contract that said that you would not work outside of share enterprises. So you can't record music. You can't be in movies. You can't be on TV. And we don't know what's going to happen with this because this is essentially an ironclad contract.

Right. Which, of course, there is no such thing, thankfully, because so many entertainers sign bad contracts that they can, in fact, get out of. And that's what happened when shares was like, wait a minute, you're saying that I can't do anything except for make entertainment for a company that I own no part of. Right.

And he said, yeah. And she was like, all right, well, let me ask my boyfriend this. Her boyfriend at the time was another music impresario, David Geffen. And he said, I'll get you out of that. Don't worry about it. So he gets her out of that contract, gets her a two and a half million dollar deal with Warner Brothers, which, you know, that's a lot of money now. But obviously in 19, the early 1970s, it's a very big record contract. And that contract.

would be followed very shortly thereafter by the canceling of the comedy hour in 1974. But Cher was always, she still liked Sonny. She wasn't like this guy took advantage of me. She was like, you know, I really love Sonny. I would have done another show if they would have split it 50-50 with me. He was a terrible husband, but a great mentor and a great teacher to me. Right.

Anytime I hear about the Sonny and Cher show, too, I'm reminded of that Simpsons little bit where they talk about a man who woke up from a coma after 20 years. And he's being interviewed in his hospital bed. And he goes, do Sonny and Cher still have that stupid show? And Kent Brockman goes, no, she won an Oscar and he's a congressman. And that guy goes, good night, and like dies right there. His tongue like rolls out of his mouth. Yeah.

Yeah, Sonny Bono would become a congressman. Yeah, a Republican congressman, no less. Was he? Yeah. Oh, I couldn't remember. So in 1975, she got her own variety show just called Cher. And it was sort of like the rest of them. It was not as popular. You know, they had a certain chemistry together that made them famous. And so they would bring back the show, this time not as the comedy hour, but just the Sonny and Cher show. And...

That one didn't last super long either because by 1977, and this was the version that I saw on TV when I was but six years old, they broke up professionally as well. So that was it for her and Sonny Bono from that point on, aside from in the public's collective memory, right? Yeah. Like I said, she was still carrying out or performing like she had a solar career that she was also doing all this time while she was doing other stuff with Sonny.

And it was very successful very early on. She had her seventh album was in 1971. She was...

24, I think at the time, 25 maybe. And that was her seventh studio album. Initially, it was entitled Share with a little accent over the E just to make it fancy. But instead, they're like, no, no, we want to be way more offensive than that. Let's name it after the title track, Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves.

That's right. That's a word that is not used anymore, which we learned when we did that episode many, many years ago. So we're all still learning, everybody. She also had a song on there that hasn't aged too well. It was called Half Breed. And it was about it was like from the perspective of a half Cherokee woman and Cher wore, you know, a bra.

faux headdress and performed that way and claimed to be of Cherokee descent on her mother's side. And it seems like none of that is actually true. And I'm sure that stuff Cher is not like, you know, puts at the top of her CV these days. No, but interestingly, she still rocked a headdress in her Vegas residency in the 21st century. Did she really? Yeah, when she would do a medley of her hits for that song, she would wear a headdress still.

So she's still doing half-breed? Yeah. All right. Yeah. So I read that somewhere. I didn't see it with my own eyes or anything. Well, maybe that is at the top of her CV then. So it was about this time. Can you imagine that's the number one thing she lists out of her entire career? Yeah.

So, about this time, early, early 70s, she starts becoming known for like really wearing just totally revealing clothing. And she and Bob Mackie just put it into like overdrive and start taking off from there. And one of the outfits that she first got wide public notice for was her naked dress that she wore to the Met Gala in 1974. And Bob Mackie escorted her. And

It is a naked dress. It's an amazing, beautiful gown that seems totally see-through, but it's not. And it was a big deal. It made a huge splash. Yeah. And, you know, you can't go to the Met Gala these days and you can throw a rock and hit five naked dresses. Mm-hmm.

with that one throw. But that was, I tried to find examples of anyone to pioneer that nude look in public before Cher, and I couldn't find any. So as far as I know, Mackie and Cher kind of put that well-worn look on the map. Yeah. Yeah. From what I saw, she was widely cited as the first one. She also wore it the next year on the cover of Time. And that was

just kind of sealed it as an iconic dress. But that was far from the last dress, as we'll see. We're going to talk a little bit more about her dresses soon. But first, let's take a little side trip.

Over to the Allman Brothers band. Literally. And meet up, yeah, and meet up with Greg Allman, one of the founders. And they got married. Apparently within a few days of Sonny and Cher's divorce being final, Cher, I guess, had met Greg Allman at some point and was like, let's go get married in Vegas. And I think nine days later they were married in Vegas. Yeah. And they had a...

I mean, her relationship and marriage to Greg Gallman is as famous as it was to Sonny Bono because of, I mean, her marriage to Sonny was a little boring in comparison, I think. And I think it was either Cher or.

Or maybe it was Greg. One of them described their marriage as being on LSD at Disneyland. So they had a lot of fun. But this was a bad time. I mean, good time professionally for Greg Allman in the mid-70s. But he was really not doing too well with his consumption habits. He had heroin issues and cocaine issues and alcohol issues. And they had a volatile, I guess, four or five year run of

Getting back together, remarrying, stuff like that, reconciling. So it was sort of an up and down wild marriage, rock and roll marriage, which got a lot of press. But it also bore her other son, Elijah Blue Almond, who was born in 1976.

Yeah, and I don't remember if I brought this up and if so, where. But I ran across this somewhere and I remembered it when I was reading about Elijah Blue Allman. The balloon arch, which you might see at like a wedding or something like that, was invented for Elijah Blue Allman's third birthday by legendary balloon artist Treb Heining. The new dress? Isn't that amazing? Yeah.

The balloon arch, the nude dress. What else? Auto-tune, as we'll see. Yeah. I mean, she was a huge pioneer in a lot of, well, Cher had a really large pop cultural impact. More than she gets credit for, for sure. I think so. As I said, that marriage was trouble. Greg Allman was not much of a father. Elijah Blue has had struggles in his life, in his health, drug problems. I know he struggles with Lyme disease.

And they're very sadly still have a troubled he and chair have a troubled relationship. She I remember reading this last year. She tried to file or she filed to try and get a conservatorship over him just late last year, but was denied it. And it's just.

I think anyone who is a fan of Cher is really behind her and hoping that she and her son can resolve this. Yeah, apparently she went through a really rough patch with Chaz as well, but that's kind of been resolved over the years. She said in, I think, a 2010 interview on Vanity Fair, right?

So by this time, by 1978, she and Greg Allman are about to split up for good. And she decides to finally just change her legal name to Cher, which is an enormous reduction in the number of letters in her full name. Because at the time, her full legal name was Sherilyn Sarkeesian LaPierre Bono Allman. And she's like, just call me Cher from now on. And that's what the law said. They stamped it and said, OK, we'll call you Cher from now on.

Another thing that Cher was very well known for was her myriad boyfriend she had over the years. Many times, including up to today, dating men that were younger than her, sometimes much younger than her. But usually famous dudes, very high profile relationships. She dated Gene Simmons for a couple of years, the bass player from Kiss.

And more than bass player, obviously. She dated Val Kilmer. She dated Tom Cruise. She dated Eric Stoltz, who played her son in the movie Mask, which is a little strange. But yeah, she loves men and loves dating men. She believes in love. Right. And she believes in life even afterward, too.

Yeah. A little side thing on Eric Stoltz that I found out recently. Apparently he was the original Marty McFly in Back to the Future. Did you know that? You didn't know that? No. I'll stop sharing this anecdote immediately. No, I'm sorry. That was just one of those that I thought you would have known. Like you can see the like they shot some of the movie with him and you can see those scenes.

I did not know that part. I did know that they wanted Michael J. Fox originally, but Family Ties was like, no. So they went with Eric Stoltz and were like, this kid is playing this way too seriously. He would not goof it up at all. He's too serious of an actor. So they were like, all right, we're like a third of the way through shooting. We're just going to bring in Michael J. Fox on nights and weekends, which is why a lot of the stuff that a lot of the scenes Michael J. Fox is in are at night, set at night. Oh, yeah. You should check out some of the scenes. It's very brain-breaking footage.

to be someone of our generation and see Eric Stoltz playing Martin McFly. So what's like that scenes that made it into the movie, you mean, or the outtakes? No, no, no. Okay. Just, I mean, they had shot a third of the movie and that, that exists online. I see. I got you. I didn't know they were like this, this scene was actually too good. We're just going to pretend like that's Michael J. Fox. I got you. So, uh, like he's got his back turned to the camera. You can still somehow see his freckles.

In the 80s is when Cher finally broke out as an actor. This is something that, or actually, should we take a break there or no? Yeah, we might as well. All right. We'll sleep a cliffhanger, though. And when we come back, we'll learn to see if Cher ever acted again right after this. We'll be right back.

Hey, folks, Lululemon knows that feeling good starts with moving more and their workout gear is designed to make that as comfortable as possible. Yeah, let's zero in on the zeroed in short. It's a perfect example of how they combine performance and comfort because it has a smooth waistband that never digs in. Very important. And it's designed to move with you. So it ensures that no matter how intense your workout gets, you'll remain comfortable and focused on it.

That's right. It's also crafted from fabric that dries super fast so you won't have to worry about distractions from moisture during your workouts or your day. It's also available in three different lengths so you can choose the one that suits your style and needs best. Whether you're hitting the gym or going for a run or even just relaxing, these shorts are tailored for versatility and comfort. So are you ready to upgrade your workout wardrobe? Shop for the zeroed-in short now at lululemon.com. ♪ music playing ♪

Toyota's legacy has been standing tall for generations, from pioneering hybrid technology to redefining the standards of safety and efficiency. With each innovation, a renewed commitment to progress. And with Toyota's legendary lineup of trucks in stock at your local Toyota dealer, you can experience the legacy for yourself. So check out the ultra-rugged new Tacoma, built for off-road adventure or everyday practicality.

or test drive a heavy-duty half-ton Tundra decked out with modern tech and comfort with a haul-anything attitude. And both Tacoma and Tundra are available with the i-Force Max Hybrid powertrain, giving your truck more power than ever before. Quality, reliability, efficiency. That's the legacy of Toyota. Visit buyatoyota.com, the official website for deals, to find out more. Toyota, let's go places. ♪ music playing ♪

Attention, parents and grandparents. Are you searching for the perfect gift for your kids this holiday season? Well, give the gift of adventure that will last all year long. We're talking about a Guardian bike, of course. Yeah, the easiest, safest and quickest bikes for kids to learn on. Your kid could learn to ride in just one day with no training wheels needed. I got to say, my daughter has a Guardian bike. I put that thing together. No problem. And I'm not even good at that stuff. And she loves it.

Because they are designed especially for stability. They're low to the ground with a wide wheelbase, ultra lightweight frames, and they offer superior control and balance. And I have seen it happen. Guardian bikes are also the only kids bikes designed and assembled in a factory in the USA, ensuring top notch quality and durability. And their holiday sales have begun. They're offering the biggest deal of the year, up to 25% off on bikes, no code needed, plus free shipping and a free bike lock and pump with your first purchase after signing up for their newsletter.

That's right. So join the hundreds of thousands of happy families by getting a Guardian bike today and visit GuardianBikes.com to take advantage of these deals and secure your holiday gifts today. Happy riding. Thank you.

We learned so much stuff from Josh and Chuck. Stuff you should know. All right. We've got to the bottom of that one, too. Cher did finally get into acting in a genuine way in the 1980s. She was on Broadway in the I guess in the same year, in 1982, Robert Altman did a Broadway version of Come Back to the Five and Dime, Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean and a movie called

Um, she was in the movie and won a golden globe for that part. Even did you know that that, um, play originally premiered at the Alliance theater in Atlanta before Broadway? Amazing. Um, so that was a big breakthrough for her. Um,

that movie in particular, but also Broadway. I mean, that's like a pretty big deal to go act on stage. There's a big difference between being in the hands of an editor and being like live on stage. So that was a pretty big way to kind of debut as like a genuine actor. Because one thing we should say, that Chastity movie that she first tried in 1969, that was a drama. It wasn't a comedy. It was like a straight up drama. And people were just like, no, we're not accepting this.

So she kept at it. She was in Come Back to the Five and Dime, Jimmy Dean. She, I think the next year, played the lesbian roommate of Meryl Streep, well, Meryl Streep's character in Silkwood. And she actually cites that as one of the watershed moments that started to attract like a following for her from the gay community that kind of eventually became, you know, her gay icon ship, right? Yeah.

Yeah, she won, by the way, a Golden. She won the Golden Globe for that. OK, great. And then she starred in Mask. Very. I mean, she was amazing in Mask. That movie was so good. If I remember correctly, I haven't seen in a long time, but I just can't see that not being good. Like that part where he teaches his blind girlfriend, like what colors are through touch. Yeah. What was that, Laura Dern?

Okay. So Cher is like her, is Eric Stoltz's protective biker mom. And just the whole movie is just so great. She does a really great job. And she won the best actress award at Cannes for her role in Mask.

So she was expecting to at least be nominated for an Oscar for Best Actress. Yeah. Nothing. It was a snub, a straight up snub. Like Hollywood was sending a message to her like, nice try, but just stay out of the acting business. We've got this. We can't really take you seriously. Yeah. It was a big thumb in the eye. So Bob Mackie designed her famous revenge gown. Yeah.

Gown? Gown, which was this, it was the one where she had the big, huge plume of black feathers all over her head, kind of like a headdress. Or I guess it was a headdress and just like, you know, not a Native American kind of headdress. And it was basically like, hey, everybody, look at me. Yeah, not Don Amici, who would win. Who won? Don Amici, he won for Cocoon. She was presenting the Best Supporting Actor Award.

Oh, OK. I thought you meant won her award. No, she. I think that was Geraldine Page, maybe. In what? Well, I don't know if Cher got nominated or would have been nominated. I guess she would have been nominated for Best Actress or would have been a Best Supporting for Mask. I think Best Actress. That's what she won in Cannes. OK, so I think Geraldine Page won Best Actress. In what?

I can't remember the name of the movie. What was it about? Can you give a brief synopsis? No, I can't remember. But that was also the same year of The Color Purple. So I think there were three or four actresses nominated in both categories for that. And Jessica Lange, like, you know, it's always tough to say like, well, this person deserved it more than that person. But hey, that's how the Oscars go. Cher should have been nominated at least, but she would win the next year.

For Moonstruck, which is one of my favorite movies. I've never seen it. Oh, man. You'd love it. Okay. I'll take your word for it. Vintage Nicolas Cage. Also, I wanted to mention, too, in case anyone is curious, I rewatched Masked. What is wrong with me? I don't know. I'm just saying everything's slightly wrong. Was it Masked Jim Carrey? That was The Mask. Okay, gotcha. So what's Masked?

There is no such thing. There probably is. But Mask, I rewatched a few years ago because that was a movie crush movie. It was Tig Notaro's pick. Oh, nice. I don't blame Tig for that at all. Yeah. So it was fun to go back and rewatch that because that was an HBO special for me. I watched it quite a few times back in the day. So did it hold up? Yeah. Really good. Good movie. Great.

So, the 80s were really kind of big for Cher. And remember, she made her debut and was releasing hits and had a hit TV show in the early 70s, not even mid-70s. By the mid-80s and late 80s, it was like she had a brand new career.

She'd won an Oscar. She won a Best Actress at Cannes. She was becoming an acclaimed actress. And then she starts releasing albums again. Two albums in two years, or three years, 1987 and 1989. And the 1989 one, Heart of Stone, that went triple platinum. And the reason, one of the big reasons that went triple platinum was for her If I Could Turn Back Time song. Yeah, I've been singing that all day and I didn't even watch it.

Just from reading those words, it's been stuck in my head. I've got the thing I've been doing the whole time with that, if I could turn back time. I saw Jack do it on Will and Grace when she did a cameo on it. And he thought she was like a drag queen, but it was the real Cher. And he was telling her how to do it right. And she slaps him and says, snap out of it.

Why was he doing his voice like that, though? He saw her and, like, they had, like, a turn back time off and he was correcting her because he thought she was a Cher impersonator. It's a pretty great, you haven't seen that scene? It's great. Yeah, you know, what's Jack from Will and Grace? Oh, Sean Hayes. Right. Best known for his role on Smartless, the podcast. Yeah.

The movie career would continue. If I Can Turn Back Time was a huge hit. She put out Mermaids in 1990. That had another hit song in it, the Shoop Shoop song. It's in His Kiss. Sonny, like you said, would very tragically die in a skiing accident in 98. But that was also the year of her biggest hit ever, the song that you joked about with the auto-tune, which was Believe.

of the same album, Believe. And it was a quadruple platinum record.

Number one hit. The album was Quadruple Platinum, and that song was number one for four weeks. Yeah, and not only that, we talked about this in the autotune episode. That was the first use of autotune in that way. Up to that point, it had just been used to kind of just gently correct people's vocals. That's what it was originally created for. And her producer, Mark Taylor, was like, no, we're turning that thing up to 11 to see what happens. Yeah.

And so this is 1998, right? She had her first career in the 70s, second career in the 80s. She's kind of gone off and just been out of the limelight for a good decade. And...

She has this idea to record this album and Warner Brothers in America was like, no, we don't think so. We're not 100 percent. You're going to sell any copies. So just like with the Rolling Stones bringing her to England and saying like, hey, everybody, check these people out and that helping her get her boost. She went to her British label, Warner Brothers UK, and they agreed to release it. So Warner Brothers America turned down that.

that album. And luckily the UK label agreed and it had not only just that huge impact on her career, but also the fact that he's auto-tuned, it just took off from there. Yeah, it was huge. Um, and you know, change music for a little while. It's, I don't think it's a, it's a, it's a thing that sort of rooted in time now. I think a lot of people were worried like, Oh no, this is going to change music forever. And it was just sort of a, um,

What's the word I'm looking for? Just a music trick that was fashionable for a little while, I guess. Yeah, a long while, I would say. I mean, this is like a good people still use that stuff and not just in rap anymore. Right. And it's been a quarter century that people have been doing that.

Is it still a thing? Yeah. Yes, it is still a thing. It's becoming, like you said, less and less and less. I think everybody's like, we got to come up with something besides trap music now because it's just been done too long too many times. But I saw an interview with Cher. He said Jay-Z once came up to her and thanked her. He said, a lot of my friends who don't have very good voices –

have careers thanks to you and autotune. So I think that's a reason why it stuck around for a quarter century, because it lets producers say like, hey, you're terrible at this. We can make that right. Just go out there and be the image that we want to see. Yeah. Well, one word you've said a few times in describing that is decades. And I'm not talking about her perfume.

But her perfume is named Decades because the coolest fact about Cher probably is that she's the only solo artist in music history to have hits in seven different decades, which is just unbelievable. And it's something, I mean, that's why she called her perfume that, because something she's really proud of is her staying power. I know she's been asked in interviews about, like, you know, who these days? Is it Lady Gaga or who's the next Cher? Who's...

comparable to you. And she wasn't being like,

Nobody, honey. But her response was just sort of like, well, you know, they're all great. But like the thing I'm most proud of, and I'm, of course, paraphrasing, is the the decades, seven decades of hits. And like, you know, not saying there's no one comparable, but there's kind of no one comparable. And like kind of a call me in 40 years kind of thing. And let's see where they're at. And not again, she wasn't being a jerk. She's just being very matter of fact about what a big deal.

accomplishment that is for her and I don't blame her for sure

She's still releasing albums. I mentioned a Vegas residency, 2008 to 2011. She was working Caesar's palace. She released a album in 2013. It was a dance album. I think the whole thing was a dance album that kind of made it different from some of her, all the rest of her albums. She released a Christmas album last year. I didn't know that. I got to hear that. It's, it's unlistenable. Um,

At least the single is. It's bad, man. DJ play a Christmas song? It's not. I don't like it. And I like Sharon. I like her work, but I'm not a fan of that song. And you like Christmas music? Yes. I think that's why I don't like that song. But yeah, it's odd. It's definitely worth listening to, but I don't think you're going to make it through the whole thing.

Okay. Do that whole song? Yeah. I mean, if you were on ecstasy and acid and at a club, you'd probably be like, this is pretty good. But if you're just sitting there listening to it during a work day, I don't think you're going to like it very much. Yeah. While you're working at the gap at the mall. Right. Please God, not again. I worked at the gap during Christmas. That's the only time I worked there was for like a month. But, um,

That Christmas mix got so into my brain. And the one that really stands out was Santa's got a brand new bag. The James Taylor one. James Taylor or James Brown? Did I say James Taylor? What is wrong with me? I don't know. You know, James Taylor. Yeah. Santa's got a brand new bag.

Oh, man, I'm just off my game today. That's pretty funny, though. I'm not going to cut that out. You're still charming as ever, though. I'll tell you that. I appreciate it. Like Warren Beatty. You just need auto-tune for your brain for this episode. Yeah, that's exactly what I need. Cher is but a Tony away from an EGOT. I'm not sure if there are any plans to get her one. To me, they should have given her one just for...

Um, the musical, the share show, which was on Broadway and did win Tony's, but it's like, just throw her a Tony, man. Give her that. He got, yeah. One of the things, so we talked about her being a gay icon. Um, she did an interview with pride source.com, um,

And they were asking her about, you know, how that happened. And she was saying, like, you know, gay men are very loyal. And she said that Come Back to the Five and Dime, when it premiered, like, it had a big response initially, and then it just dropped off. The Broadway version. Yes. But the gay community had already discovered and loved Cher. Yeah.

And she said they just basically came out and supported the show and kept it going long enough to develop into larger and larger following. And that had it not been for the gay community, it would have just been it would have been canceled very quickly after after debuting. And it didn't. And she's like, that's that's just the kind of support that.

Not just she, but anybody that is an icon in the gay community can expect that they're just very loyal and supportive, even if what you're doing is not that great. And I read that the Cher show is essentially being supported by the gay community, too, that it's not super good.

Yeah, I haven't heard that. But and of course, that's the full spectrum of the LGBTQ community because of her work with trans rights. You know, she even admits having a hard time when initially Chaz came out as gay and then later transition. But, you know, they're a tight family and they worked through it. And she's has been a supporter, even though it she just had to wrap her head around it. I know that she got her first experience with.

with the gay community when she was 12. From this article I read, she said, told a very cute story. She said, "I came home from school one day. There were these two guys in our living room talking to my mom and her best friend, and they were so happy and excited about everything they were talking about.

So animated. And I thought, these guys are so much more fun than the regular men who come over to visit. I didn't know they were gay. I just thought these guys are great. And it all started from then. I love that story. It's a great anecdote. Yeah, it's really good. She also is a supporter of veterans. She's called into C-SPAN at least two times to promote her help for, I think, with inserts into helmets for soldiers in the Iraq War.

Um, and she co-founded a charity called Free the Wild that relocates captive zoo animals to like actual good habitats. Um, that's awesome. Yeah. She's, I mean, she's flirting with Dolly Hood. Not quite, but she's really close. I mean, she's like a good, she's a cool person. Good person. Yeah. I guess, uh, look for episodes on Barbra Streisand and Judy Garland.

Yeah. In the next couple of years. There you go. We're going to become gay icons if we keep this up. That should round it out. Oh, I hope so. Well, if you want to know more about Cher, just go watch some videos, listen to some songs, read some articles, go see a Broadway play about her. Whatever you want to do, there's plenty to take in. And since I said that, it's time for Listener Mail. I'm going to call this freaking follow-up. Hey, guys. Back in the day when there were payphones, the operator could actually give you back your dime

and later a quarter by a tone if something went wrong. One of the earliest hacks involved getting back your dime without an operator, and usually many more dimes than just yours, by slowly controlling the return from dialing the number nine. Wow. Man, kids back in the day. As you returned the dial, money would come out. Oh, okay, so it was on a dial phone. And depending on when the service started,

Depending on when the service people had last collected from that phone. I'm not sure I read that right, but I think you get the picture. Yeah. You could get quite a lot of money this way. I refuse to answer how I know this, but a person could pay for train fare to the suburbs from Grand Central by going to several phone booths in a row. That is from Danielle, last name redacted.

Nice. Thanks a lot, Danielle. It's a great anecdote. I love that one, Chuck. Me too. Well, if you want to be like Danielle and give us a great anecdote about something we talked about, you can guess. We love that kind of stuff. You can put it in an email and send it off to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Hey friends, Toyota has been building for generations, from pioneering hybrid tech to redefining the standards of safety and efficiency. Toyota is always innovating, always making progress, and with a legendary lineup of in-stock cars, including the high-performance 25 Camry and capable, affordable Corolla, you can experience the legacy of Toyota for yourself. Visit BuyAToyota.com, the official website for deals, to find out more. Toyota, let's go places.

This election season, the stakes are higher than ever. I think the choice is clear in this election. Join me, Charlemagne Tha God, for We The People, an audio town hall with Vice President Kamala Harris and you, live from Detroit, Michigan, exclusively on iHeartRadio. They'll tackle the tough questions, depressing issues, and the future of our nation. We may not see eye to eye on every issue, but America, we are not going back.

Don't miss this powerful conversation with Vice President Kamala Harris. Tomorrow at 5 p.m. Eastern, 2 p.m. Pacific on the free iHeartRadio app's Hip Hop Beat Station. How do you feel about biscuits? Hi, I'm Akilah Hughes, and I'm so excited about my new podcast, Rebel Spirit, where I head back to my hometown in Kentucky and try to convince my high school to change their racist mascot, the Rebels, into something everyone in the South loves, the biscuits. I was a lady rebel. Like, what does that even mean? No!

It's right here in black and white in print. It's bigger than a flag or mascot. Listen to Rebel Spirit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.