Shownotes Transcript
Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about.
out. In a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Thanks, Capital One Bank guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC. Toyota's legacy has been standing tall for generations, from pioneering hybrid technology to redefining the standards of safety and efficiency, and with each innovation, a commitment to progress. And with a legendary lineup
Howdy, everybody. It's January 7th, 2016. No, it's not. But in my world, it is. It's actually 2024.
But we're going to go back in time to January 2016 to listen to the episode on body language. And I said it like that because for some reason it has an exclamation point at the end. So please enjoy Body Language. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. ♪
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. Jerry's in the house. We're back to basics. Yeah. We're doing a social sciences episode. Oh, man. I mean, we're all right, man. We get to tear it apart. You believe in body language? Sure. Watch this.
You're winking and shouldering and nodding your head and you're loosening up and you're doing some weird biting thing. What did I say? You said I'm feeling silly. That's exactly what I was saying. How about that? Yeah, it said I've had a diet Mountain Dew and I'm pepped up. Ah, okay. That's what I was saying. I missed the... Now I'm crashing. And he's down. You doing good? Yeah, I'm hanging on by a thread.
Are you? Sure. We can make it through this, man. You can do this in your sleep. Okay. Don't go to sleep. Okay. It would be so boring. You could theoretically do this in your sleep. Yeah. Okay. I got you. Yeah. So body language, it is a thing. Yeah. When I was researching, I was like, this is junk science. There's no way this is real. And I could not find anything that just said, like, yes, body language is obviously junk science. Apparently, it's very well established and well reputed. I mean, I understand, like...
Like, yes, there is such thing as body language. Yeah, sure. And it's rooted in evolution. Yeah. It's basically evidence of evolution from an animalian ancestor. Yeah. But the idea that, like, you can read somebody, especially, like, that facial coding system, it just struck me as really, like, junky. Yeah, well, we did, I could have sworn we had done this one when I suggested it. We did microexpressions. Yeah, we did that in, I think, 2009. And I don't remember how I weighed in on it back then.
So I'm just going to start anew. Yes. It may be a different take. I have no idea. People grow and change. Their opinions evolve, you know? Well, here's what I think. Of course, body language is real, and it can tell you a lot. Can tell you a lot. Uh-huh. But it can also... You can be misdirected very easily. Sure. And, I mean, we'll get to it, but I found some stuff from a former FBI guy, even, that doesn't say it's junk science, but...
He's like, you can fool somebody too. If you're a sociopath, you know about body language and microexpressions. Yeah, yeah. Apparently it's a myth that... That's how I get by. Apparently it's a myth that not having eye contact means deception. While it can, his whole point is they've done studies over the years and habitual liars...
and anti-socials and psychopaths have the most eye contact, apparently. Probably because there's that myth. Yeah, exactly. So it's like a self-fulfilling myth. Yeah, Ted Bundy was probably like, I've got to make great eye contact with everyone I speak with. I'm looking into your soul. Otherwise, the jig will be up. Right.
And I won't get to kill people any longer. My favorite thing. Right. And then, so yeah, there's a lot of myth. There's that one myth also where like you look up and to the right or up and to the left if you're lying or recalling. Yeah. I can't remember. We debunked that in something here or there a while back. Yeah, I think body language is fun to talk about and study. But when you're...
convicting someone as a jury based on micro-expressions. Yes, there's where the junk science comes in for me. It gets a little dangerous. And not just with body language, too. We need to do a whole episode on forensics in general and just how junky
the science that most of it is based on. It's basically the only thing that's less standing is DNA, and even that can be wildly misinterpreted. And we're using this to execute people. And there's a big problem with it. So I think we've arrived at my problem with it.
It's junk science when you apply it for, like, law enforcement. Yeah, as fact. Yeah. Agreed. Okay. So... Can we be done? This is the other thing that got me, too. Albert Mehrabian. I totally nailed that guy's name. I bet the H is silent. Mehrabian? Mehrabian? I bet it's just Mehrabian, not Meh-heh-heh-rabian. Anyway. Dr. Pfft.
Morabian. He, back in 1981, said that in the first four minutes of meeting someone, our facial expressions account for 65% of the impression we make. 7% of that impression comes from our actual words, while the remainder of the information comes from our tone of voice. Yeah.
That, I think, is what made me think, like, no, this is all BS. Yeah, because it sounds... Who can say that? You can't. Maybe in 1981 you could get away with that crap. Not in 2015. No, 16. Yeah. You lived in the past. Yeah, Morabian was probably one of the first researchers to study this in the 1940s out of UCLA. And I agree. You can't just break down percentages. I think what he really means to say...
if i may speak for him yes is facial expressions and tone of voice account for a lot of
a lot of what you're getting out of a person. And I don't think anyone would disagree with that. And words account maybe for even less than those two things combined. I think people would agree with that, too. I think it's when you quantify it. Yeah, sure. 7%? He just said that just because it sounds authoritative. Yeah, like he fed it into the percentage maker of 3,000, and it spit it out. But that is not to miss the point that communicating...
inadvertently is something that we all do. Through body language. Sure. Yeah. There's a great quote I ran across on a Psychology Today post. The quote comes from a 16th century Scottish mathematician named John Napier. And
And he said, if language was given to men to conceal their... Oh, you found it too, huh? Yeah, it's a good one. It's about as good a quote of body language as you can come up with. You do it, Chuck. No, you. You were already halfway through. You do better 16th century Scottish mathematicians than me. No way. I'm not doing it. Do Sean Connery reading this.
Oh, man. If language was given to men to conceal their thoughts, then gesture's purpose was to disclose them. That's perfect. Not bad. That was a dead-on John Napier. It's not as good as my Christoph Waltz. Yeah. So, Napier makes a pretty good point. Like, yeah, you can... Language has all sorts of structure and can be mastered. Body language is...
much of it is just inadvertent and we don't even realize necessarily when you're picking up on it. You just get this weird gut feeling that, no, I don't trust this car salesman or I want to give this car salesman all my money, depending on the body language.
Yeah, and it's pretty clear that this started a long time ago. Like, it predates language. Right. Because, who wrote this, by the way? This is a Patrick Kiger joint. Oh, Kiger? Yeah. Kiger says, rightfully, that in Tuk-Tuk's age, you didn't have a lot of time to suss things out. Right. Like...
up close and personal. Once you got close enough within striking distance... You can be stricken. Yeah, you might already have that club upside your head or that rock in your face. So you needed to judge someone's body language as they approach you to survive. Yes. So body language makes sense. And you would also...
presuppose that since we are descended from animals and animals clearly do engage in body language, that
body language would be older than language. Although this article says that language didn't exist until about 100,000 years ago. That's under dispute now. Oh, really? Possibly as much as a million years ago, people were using some sort of verbal communication. Oh, wow. Yeah. And Neanderthals apparently also had language probably. Interesting. It is pretty interesting. I'd like to do one on animal communication. Have we not? I think we touched on it here and there, but I know there's a lot of...
Things like cats purring and tails wagging on dogs that are misinterpreted. Yeah. Or like a wolf growling. I think that means, come pet me. You know, it's often misinterpreted as a warning. Come take this steak out of my mouth, if you dare. Should we take a break? Sure. All right, let's take a quick one. And we're going to get back and explain a little bit more about what one researcher calls thin slices of experience. Thin slices of experience.
If there's anything better than getting a few of your favorite things from McDonald's, it's getting a few of your favorite things from McDonald's for less in the McDonald's app. Delicious. And what could be better than two of your favorites for $3.99? Like the four-piece McNuggets, McDouble, or hot and spicy McChicken. So stop in for twice the delicious. Prices and participation may vary. Cannot be combined with any other offer. Single item at regular price. Ba-da-ba-ba-ba.
This election season, the stakes are higher than ever. I think the choice is clear in this election. Join me, Charlemagne Tha God, for We The People, an audio town hall with Vice President Kamala Harris and you, live from Detroit, Michigan, exclusively on iHeartRadio. They'll tackle the tough questions, depressing issues, and the future of our nation. We may not see eye to eye on every issue, but America, we are not going back.
Don't miss this powerful conversation with Vice President Kamala Harris. Tomorrow at 5 p.m. Eastern, 2 p.m. Pacific on the free iHeartRadio app's Hip Hop Beat Station. How do you feel about biscuits?
I'm Akilah Hughes, and I'm so excited about my new podcast, Rebel Spirit, where I head back to my hometown in Kentucky and try to convince my high school to change their racist mascot, the Rebels, into something everyone in the South loves, the Biscuits. I was a lady rebel. Like, what does that even mean? The Boone County Rebels will stay the Boone County Rebels with the image of the Biscuits. It's right here in black and white in print. They lion. Yeah.
An individual that came to the school saying that God sent him to talk to me about the mascot switch. As a leader, you choose hills that you want to die on. Why would we want to be the losing team? I just take all the other stuff out of it. Segregation academies. When civil rights said that we need to integrate public schools, these charter schools were exempt from that. Bigger than a flag or mascot. You have to be ready for serious backlash.
Listen to Rebel Spirit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Bruce Bozzi. On my podcast, Table for Two, we have unforgettable lunch after unforgettable lunch with the best guest you could possibly ask for. People like David Duchovny. You know, New Yorkers have a reputation of being very tough, but it's not. It's not that way at all. They're very accepting. Jeff Goldblum. Are you saying secret fries? Secret fries. What? What?
That's what you're saying? Yeah. And Kristen Wiig. I just became so aware that I'm such a loud chewer. My husband's just like, sometimes I'll be eating and he'll just be looking at me. I'm like, I'm just eating. Like, I don't know how else to chew. Taylor Swift.
Table for Two is a bit different from other interview shows. We sit down at a great restaurant for a meal and the stories start flowing. Our second season is airing right now so you can catch up on our conversations that are intimate, surprising, and often hilarious. Listen to Table for Two with Bruce Bozzi on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. ♪ Second show ♪
So Josh has said something about thin slices. Of experience. And I'm not talking about the roast beef line at the buffet.
Which is great thin slices. The carving station. Yeah, yeah. You ever work at a carving station? Have I ever worked one? Yeah. I've hung around one long enough that I basically should have been paid, but I was just eating. What, do you wait for the next roast to come out so you can get the end cut? No, I've never been into end cuts, whether it be a loaf of bread or a cut of meat. Oh, really? Like a prime rib end cut? Yeah, no. Daddy, that's good. Isn't it all salt? Yeah.
Maybe that's why I love it. You like the salt, huh? Oh, yeah. To me, it's like the closer you get to the middle, the juicier it is. I like stuff lower cooked. Yeah, and a little rarer in the middle, obviously. Yeah, so I think that's my problem with the end of anything. It's undercooked or overcooked. You know, I have a theory about why people don't like to eat the crust. Why? Because it's called crust.
And that might be part of it. If like a hundred years ago they named it like the... The butterfly? Yeah, the butterfly slice. Yeah. People would have been like fighting for it. Yeah. Like the butterfly slice is delicious. Yeah. Have you ever heard George Carlin's little take on that end slice that everybody always goes past? Uh-uh. They're like, I'm not going to eat that. That's the poison piece of bread. I'll leave that for my family to eat. Wait, I guess the end piece isn't called the crust though, is it? The crust is what's around...
But it's all crust. That's the problem with it. Oh, okay. You know what I mean? Sure. It's nothing but crust. Yeah. Not butt crust. It's nothing but crust. I think the other weird... Man, this is a... You're so juvenile. This is a strange tangent. I think the other problem with the bread end pieces is that eating one end piece with a regular slice is a little weird. Oh, it's... Yeah. But getting that other slice off the tail end is not very feasible or efficient. Yeah.
No. To make two crust pieces. No, but that frequently is the last sandwich that's made out of the loaf because that one end piece has been hanging around. Yeah, yeah. And then it finally works its way to its mate. And then you stick some turkey in it and weep quietly while you eat your terrible sandwich. Man. Thin slices. Where were we? Of experience. Yes, this is a professor of psychology named Nalini Mbati. Mbati.
From Tufts University. Shout out to my buddy Robert Shahadeh from high school. Okay. He works at Tufts. Speaking of, you know there's a kid with like a really huge hit single out right now from your high school. Really? I think your high school is shown in the music video. It's Watch Me Whip.
Watch me nay-nay. It's Redan? Yeah. Weird. Yeah. Cilento. So I'm no longer the most famous person from my high school? You were until about six months ago. And I will be again in another six months. Maybe. It's a pretty catchy single. It's a hot, hot, hot track. No, we actually had several professional athletes that are much more popular than me. Who? We had a professional punter.
Actually, I may be more popular. I think you told me that before. Yeah, we've had a few. There's a baseball player. We had a punter. Travis Tritt went to my high school. Shut up. Really? No. See, that's big time. Yeah. Yeah, Travis Tritt was big. Yeah, I don't have any, like, superstars. Luke Bryan went to Yumi's high school. Man, you guys. Where'd you go? Beverly Hills 90210? Yeah, with Shannon Dougherty. Oh, boy. Here we go again. Thin slices. Thin slices.
From Tufts University. Well, let's talk about the thin slices thing, man. The...
You said earlier that it would be very advantageous, evolutionarily speaking, to be able to read maybe the rough intentions of some other hunter-gatherer 100,000 years ago. Read the room. Like from a distance before they could hit you with a rock, right? If that was their intent. Sure. Well, just as much, you want to be able to walk through the world and be threatened by stuff and to make snap judgments about it based on things like...
body language. Yeah. Same thing. And this is what the thin slices has to do with. Yeah, they're just those first few seconds when you meet somebody. And, I mean, some people may just call it a gut instinct about somebody. But what you're probably doing is reading body language. Right. That's what that gut instinct is. Yes. And those things are processed and generated in, I think, the limbic system, where emotions and feelings are processed in the brain. Yeah, limbic system, from what I understand. That's right, which...
She thinks, and I agree with her, that it might explain why we have such a powerful gut instinct about some people when we first meet them. Because it's tied to emotion. Yeah. And the whole point is this guy will cut your throat if you turn your back on him. Right. Probably not, but in our modern context, it's, you know, this guy will...
inflate the price of the car you want to buy if you're not careful. It's totally different things, but it's based on the same principle. It's all based on body language, and we're able to make snap judgments that we can't even...
Stop and really analyze what it was that person did or what it was about them right? We just know that we trust them or don't or we feel comfortable around them or not we fear them or we don't yeah based on this body language and what this professor is saying is we have a very ancient part of our brain that that is responsible for Processing this stuff. Yeah, and I think just for me personally I think if you try to focus on that too much then you're not doing yourselves any favors like let it be innate and
Well, yeah, there's some people who coach this kind of stuff that apparently say no to
Do all sorts of crazy weird stuff, which we'll talk about later. Yeah, agreed. But what you're looking at are... There's three different categories, I guess. Innate, learned, and some that are both hybrid expressions and postures and things that you do. And, like, for instance, you're born with, like, you can blush. That's an innate thing. You blush. You don't mean to blush. Especially when somebody's staring at your cheek. Yeah, I don't think you can make yourself blush. Watch this. So...
Just think about hot things in your mouth. Just tighten up your core. So that's the innate side. Learned would be things like hanging someone a bird out the car window. Right. Because everyone knows what that means. Depending on where you are. And you've learned it.
Yeah, that's not something you're born doing. Like, yeah, I got your diaper right here. Come change it. Although a photo of a baby accidentally shooting a bird is one of the great things. Sure. Can we agree? But it's accidental. There's no meaning attached to it. That's what you think. And then there's hybrid gestures that are like shrugging is a really good example. It's something you naturally shrug, right? Right. But...
It's not contextual until you learn what to attach it to. Like, I don't know. Yeah, sure. You're not born being like, I don't know. Right. Or you cry, but you've also learned that crying can get you something maybe. Right. Like a cry to get out of a traffic ticket or something. Sure. Or to gain sympathy. It can chase your parents off to the bar.
Crying? Yeah. One of those. And then, Chuck, I said something about how flipping somebody a bird, everybody knows what that means. It does depend on where you are. Sure. Because there is, especially with learned, so I think innate body language is virtually universal. Stuff that you couldn't possibly control. Like, I can't remember why I read it, but if you take a bite of something putrid and you make that horrible, like, disgusted face, like...
oh my God, I'm about to vomit everywhere. Right. Everybody who's watching you doesn't have to go, give me that, and then take a bite and taste it themselves. Right. They can look at your face and be like, I'm not going anywhere near that piece of feces that guy just took a bite of. Yeah. That's how we all learn not to eat feces. Yeah, but there's also the human thing where you're like, oh God, smell this. Right. That's the person who wants everyone else to suffer like they just did. But everybody else has just been communicated to by that innate instinct
face, that nasty face that you would make when you eat something disgusting. And again, that evolutionarily that protects us in that respect. Yeah. So that's universal. Sure. But it's the learned stuff that's culturally dependent. Yeah. Like for instance, they have a few examples in the article. Smiling in the US might mean, in the United States might mean you're happy. Apparently in Asia, it might say, I agree with you.
Those are pretty close. It could also cover up embarrassment. If they're embarrassed for you or something, they might smile. Is that why everyone's always smiling at me? They're embarrassed for me. What else? Eye contact varies from place to place. Here in the United States, someone might think you're listening and very keyed in to what you're saying. Are you Ted Bundy?
Or you're Ted Bundy. Or if you're in Africa, maybe, it might be disrespectful to look someone right in the eye. Yeah, and I looked around to find out what part of Africa, because I hate to leave it like that, you know? Yeah, on this massive continent. Right. Do not look people in the eyes. Yeah, I doubt it. That's true. I couldn't find any. Everyone said some parts of Africa. Everywhere I looked. No one specifically said in the Congo it's considered...
impolite or aggressive or something like that to maintain eye contact. It's definitely in Japan. Yeah. If you make eye contact with somebody, you are saying I'm your superior. So if you are socially or say business-wise an inferior to somebody, you're averting your gaze and it's respectful. Yeah.
In the U.S., you shake hands and you make eye contact and you just, you know, climbed a rung right there. Unless you're Prince and then he's like, nobody can have eye contact with me. Is that for real? Because he likes to do things that just mess with people for fun. I think 90% of the stories you've heard about Prince are not true. What about him playing basketball? He's like a really good basketball player, though, says Charlie Murphy. Well, I believe in everything Charlie Murphy says. I feel like...
I found some more culturally bound stuff. What else? Thumbs up in New Zealand does not mean like right on. Does that mean like thumb up your butt? Pretty much. Really? Yeah. You don't want to do that. Similarly, when you make like the peace sign, as long as you're not showing the people the back of your hand. Sure. Yeah. And in Australia and I believe New Zealand too.
Like that movie Bad Taste, the cover of it. I think Peter Jackson's first or second movie. Oh, right. The cover of it's like an alien going like that, and I'm like, what's two? Yeah, why is he showing me the number two? Then as I grew up, I learned to understand what that was. What else you got? In some cultures, nodding means no.
Like nodding yes actually means no, like in Greece and Bulgaria. Oh, wow. That could get you in trouble. Yeah, and in Mexico, this is what I found. Mexico, Haiti, and Spain, it is perfectly normal to go psst to a waiter, which I do. I don't do it to waiters, but I'm a psst kind of person. Oh, really? That's how you call someone over and get their attention. You may also make kissing noises at them. To a waiter? Yeah. Yeah.
Really? Yeah. So I go to Mexico, I need my check, and I go, I guess according to this thing that I read, which seemed pretty legitimate...
Interesting. Yeah. What was the website? I don't remember. I'll definitely send it to you to post. But it was research material to be used by business people around the world. Oh, okay. If it was a hoax, then they did a pretty good job fooling me. Gotcha. All right. Well, let's take another break, and we'll come back, and we'll talk about deciphering some of these nonverbal cues right after this. ♪
This election season, the stakes are higher than ever. I think the choice is clear in this election. Join me, Charlemagne Tha God, for We The People, an audio town hall with Vice President Kamala Harris and you, live from Detroit, Michigan, exclusively on iHeartRadio. They'll tackle the tough questions, depressing issues, and the future of our nation. We may not see eye to eye on every issue, but America, we are not going back.
Don't miss this powerful conversation with Vice President Kamala Harris. Tomorrow at 5 p.m. Eastern, 2 p.m. Pacific on the free iHeartRadio app's Hip Hop Beat Station. How do you feel about biscuits?
I'm Akilah Hughes, and I'm so excited about my new podcast, Rebel Spirit, where I head back to my hometown in Kentucky and try to convince my high school to change their racist mascot, the Rebels, into something everyone in the South loves, the Biscuits. I was a lady rebel. Like, what does that even mean? The Boone County Rebels will stay the Boone County Rebels with the image of the Biscuits. It's right here in black and white in print. They lion.
An individual that came to the school saying that God sent him to talk to me about the mascot switch. As a leader, you choose hills that you want to die on. Why would we want to be the losing team? I just take all the other stuff out of it. Segregation academies. When the civil rights said that we need to integrate public schools, these charter schools were exempt from that. Bigger than a flag or mascot. You have to be ready for serious backlash.
Listen to Rebel Spirit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Bruce Bozzi. On my podcast, Table for Two, we have unforgettable lunch after unforgettable lunch with the best guest you could possibly ask for.
People like Matt Bomer. Thank you for that introduction. I'm going to slip you a couple of 20s under the table for that. Emma Roberts. When it came into my email inbox, I was like, okay, I know I'm going to love this so much that I don't even want to read it. Because if I can't be in it, I'm going to be bummed. And Colin Jost. You know, your wife was the first guest on Table for Two. It's come full circle. As long as I do better than her, I'm happy.
Table for Two is a bit different from other interview shows. We sit down at a great restaurant for a meal, maybe a glass of rosé, and the stories start flowing. Our second season is airing right now, so you can catch up on our conversations that are intimate, surprising, and often hilarious. Listen to Table for Two with Bruce Bozzi on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Malcolm Gladwell. 25 years ago, I wrote my first book called The Tipping Point, all about the moments when an idea or trend crosses a certain threshold and spreads like wildfire. I've had a lot of time to think about that book, and the way I thought about tipping points changed. So now I'm releasing the sequel, Revenge of the Tipping Point, where I return to the subjects of social epidemics and the dark side of contagious phenomena.
You can hear a sneak peek of the audiobook on my podcast, Revisionist History. Plus, we'll dive into a duo of narrative episodes about my favorite trial in American history and a re-evaluation of the broken windows theory I explored in my first book. Find Revenge of the Tipping Point wherever you get your audiobooks and listen to Revisionist History on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
All right, so language is a very precise thing, or it should be or can be. Body language, you would think, is just all over the map, but there are actually...
uh some categories that some brilliant social scientists have come up with yeah and i think they make sense yeah basically they've broken it down into five categories or five types of non-verbal communication and body language yeah um there's emblems it's like
It's like hanging a bird. Yeah, or shaking your fist or something like that. Something that is very symbolic of something else that you can also put into words. Right? Who shakes a fist at someone? Some people do. Okay. It's a good... Yeah? Yeah. Because it's saying like... That middle finger and then you're cooking with gas. That's very aggressive. Okay. That's very aggressive. I'm just kidding. I never flick someone a bird. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Like in a car or something? No way. Yeah, apparently it's really dangerous. Yeah, and that's...
Yeah, that's why I do it. I think it's just, I mean, I'll get mad and say things, but I would never, I don't know who that person is. Yeah, could be a psycho. Yeah, then you're getting chased or you're getting shot at by someone because you felt like you just had to shoot a bird. Yeah, we talked about this in the Road Rage episode. Yeah, I wouldn't hang people to bird. That's not smart. By the way, I want to update on that. I've been improving more and more behaviorally. Oh, yeah? Even since the Road Rage episode, and I was already on the right path then.
So you're doing good behind the wheelies? I'm doing so good. I feel like I'm about the same. Well, you've always been that way. Nah, but I get mad. One time you rode with me, I think it was the first time you ever rode with me, and I started yelling at somebody. You're like, uh, really? You seem genuinely surprised. And I remember thinking, like, this is abnormal? What's wrong?
Well, that was probably because you were like sending an email with your left hand and driving with your knee and had a coffee in the other. I've gotten so much better. That's good. It's because you value your life. I do. That's great. Emblems. After emblems, illustrators, which like shaking your head as far as emphasis, to emphasize something you're saying. Right. Like no. No.
Sure. You can just say no, but the person's like, he doesn't really mean that until you shake your head while you say no. And especially if you do it slowly, that you're really saying like, do not ask me again. Yeah. Boy, I never thought about that. The slow one really does mean something different. It does. It adds, it bulks it up, you know? Regulators, um,
I think this is in a conversation to let someone else know that maybe, all right, it's time for you to talk now or it's time for me to talk. Right, or it's time for us to stop talking, like looking at your watch. Just getting up and walking away. That's, yeah. That's body language. Yeah, I guess it is. It definitely speaks volumes. There's adapters.
which I guess have to do with the person listening or I guess anybody, either one, making themselves more comfortable.
Like, you know, when you're in a conversation with somebody and they just kind of shift in their seat. Like settle in? Yeah. Now, they could be doing it differently where they're fidgeting. They're shifting in their seat uncomfortably like they can't get comfortable. That's something totally different than somebody who's just like settling in, just making themselves more comfortable. Right. Or I guess if you're having a conversation and someone just sits up on the edge of their seat, that kind of says, we're done here. Sure.
Sure. Like, I'm about to get up. Yeah. So please say something in closure. Yeah, especially if you sigh while you do that too, you know? Yeah. And then there's affect displays. And these are the ones that most people think of when they think of body language. These are the ones that, you know,
You know, like where you make that face when you eat something putrid or your shoulders go up around your ears when you're scared all of a sudden. Yeah, if you're mad, it's emotional-based. Yeah. Emotion-based? Yeah, like your eyebrows furrow. Right. There's just so much body language. I came across this one guy from 1978, an M. Argyle. No idea what the M stands for. But in 1978, Professor M. Argyle, a researcher of body language, said that
There's probably something like 700,000 words in the body language, human body language. I have no idea how he or she came up with that. That seems high. But it's fun to throw out there. Junk science. 1978. Yeah, you could say anything back then as far as like social psychology. Yeah. Um...
Misinterpreting body language is we talked a little bit about that. That is very easy to do They have one little anecdotal story about a woman who was a consultant that I think she was pitching him the CEO of a big company and The guy just sat there basically with his arms crossed and didn't emote and the end was just like thank you and she thought well I've blown this one and turns out that is just the way that guy is he loved the jerk
He loved the presentation, and if he hadn't have liked it, he just would have left, is what the partner said, I think. Yeah. So you can easily misinterpret body language. I don't know if it's... I guess it could be dangerous. Well, I mean, that's part of the problem. It can be dangerous, especially when you apply it to law enforcement. Like Paul Ekman, we talked about him heavily in the microexpressions episode because he basically...
studied micro expressions through facial movement, facial muscle movement, and figured out what each one meant. And he came up with the facial action coding system, the FACS, which apparently the FBI and other law enforcement agencies use to tell whether you're lying or you're hiding something in an interrogation. Misreading that, that's dangerous. That's when it becomes dangerous for sure.
Yeah, this dude I was talking about, Joe Navarro, who was a 25-year vet of the FBI, he's written a lot about body language. And he's one of the ones that warns about the myths and misreading things. But he wrote a whole article on shoulders. And he said everyone's always talking about the face and facial expressions. He thinks you can read a lot into the shoulders of a person, whether it's slumping or bowing up or whatever.
And then he actually talked to criminals over his entire career and said, what do you look for in a victim? So if you're looking to not be victimized, you might want to avoid these things. Okay. Looking frail or weak or not athletic. Yeah. Workout. Yeah. Or just, you know, try and carry yourself like you're not frail or weak. You know, and I think that has a lot to do with the shoulders.
Situational awareness, which is a big one. Yeah. If you just look like you have your head in the clouds. That's one for me. You can be a target. Yeah. What you're in your head about something. Sure. Yeah. And then the way someone swings their arms, like vigorously or real subdued. Or not at all, like on that one episode of Seinfeld. Yeah, the Seinfeld box.
Yeah, that was, who was that, Raquel Welch? No, it was, well, yeah, it ended up as Raquel Welch, but it was Molly Shannon. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. She remembers, she like swept Elaine's desk just clean. Oh, man. Yeah. I love Molly Shannon. She's one of my favorites. Yeah. She's fantastic. So what was, yeah, the arm swing, and basically...
What these criminals would say to him over and over is, you know, silverbacks don't go after other silverbacks. They go after the weak ones. And they said it's the same with criminals. So, like, keep those shoulders straight. And I was like, what's a silverback? I forgot. That sounds like a criminal corporate buzz speak. Yeah. You know? Silverbacks, that's the local soccer team. How do you not know what that is? Is it? Sure. That's what I thought. Yeah. All right.
What else we got? Oh, these people that try and coach you. We were going to mention them. Nut jobs. I don't think they're nut jobs. Dude, okay. The one person who emerged as a hero from this article says be very careful in trying to pay attention to your body language and speak consciously through it because you're going to have massive problems. Yeah. That's not what body language is intended for.
So the people who say, no, master your body language and use it to communicate, you're going to come off as a creep. Right. An aggressive, weirdo, corporate creep if you do that. Well, yeah. I mean, if you're making a presentation, it's hard enough to get the words right. Yeah. So if you start thinking like about every single movement you make and what that conveys, I agree. I don't think you're doing yourself any favors. Or like if you go to, again, a car sales, a car lot.
Right? Yeah. And you're like, I'm going to make sure I look very defensive and aggressive. So I'm going to go rigid and my shoulders are going to go up. Right. The car salesman is going to be like, that guy's walking like a robot. I'm going to take him for a ride.
You know, there's you just you could conceivably speak through your body language more. I don't dispute that. Right. You can become more aware of your natural body language, too. I don't dispute that either. But when you focus on it and use it as a technique to manipulate other people. Yeah. I have issues with that. Well, here was one idea I didn't think was terrible. Like if you're if you do a lot of public speaking, then maybe watching yourself.
with the sound off sure I didn't disagree with that one either that's not a terrible idea yeah I think as a matter of fact I was like maybe I should try that no don't do that
The other technique that was brought up was called mirroring. That means, and this just sounds crazy to me, this is when you actually try and mimic the person you're talking to, mimic their body language and expressions to, I guess, to make them feel more comfortable to you. People are attracted to themselves as the basis of it. Oh, okay. So when you mimic them, they feel more relaxed around you. They're like, I really like that person. I like the cut of their jib. I don't know. I can't put my finger on it.
But they're actually mimicking your own body language. If you're leaning against the wall, they're going to lean against the wall too. That's disconcerting. It is. That's nuts. You shouldn't do that to people. That's manipulative and weird. And just be yourself. How about that? Yeah, I think this quote sums it up. I'm trying to use body language by reading a body language dictionary is like trying to speak French by reading a French dictionary. So you can list off...
all the non-verbal cues in the world, but if you try and learn the body language, quote unquote, because of that, then you're just going to end up confused or you're going to miss something you actually said.
Yeah, and plus also context is huge too. Like if you're just watching somebody's body language like a hawk in a conversation, you don't necessarily know that person's baseline. So what is by definition in this body language dictionary a red flag doesn't necessarily mean it's a red flag with that person. You know, like if they're yawning, are they bored or are they nervous? Right. You've got to have context and you can't just read people like that. It's stupid. Go with your gut. Sure. But...
I don't think you should actively try to read it. If you want to, go ahead. I don't care. Yeah. I'm not going to. I did read an article with one woman who was an expert, supposedly, and she did talk a lot about the baseline. She's like, that's the most important thing because you don't know. You got to know how someone normally is. Are they twitchy? Yeah. Then...
If they're twitching in conversation, that's normal for them. Right. It doesn't mean that you can't trust what they're saying right then. It just means that they're a little awkward. Yeah. Like me. You're not awkward. You got anything else? Nope. Friends, that is body language. And if you want to know more about it, you can type these words, body language, into the search bar at HowStuffWorks.com. And since I said friends, it's time for Listener Mail.
This is a question, actually, I said we'd answer on the air. Hey, guys, been listening for quite a few years, and you've seen me through a lot of years of growth out of high school and into my own as an adult. I have a question that's been a challenge for me recently. I'm studying permaculture quite intensively, and parts of the study are pretty depressing, like climate change, species lost, and unfair trade. I try to reflect positives only...
to my clients who are trying to grow their own food because I'd rather encourage them to sustain themselves physically and emotionally than feel guilted or trapped into changing a lifestyle. I realize that having the opportunity and time to focus on ethical choices is a luxury and want to avoid shaming people. I think this approach is good for my own well-being because tackling issues bigger than myself seems more harmful than productive. But like you, part of my job...
is education. So the question is, how do you guys deal with darker topics that you cover? I really appreciate the way you do it and would like some insight and advice how you prevent these topics from weighing too heavily on you and still live a life of enjoyment yet conveying topics honestly. And that is from Annalise in Australia. Nice. Ew. Um...
I think my answer is like when we cover something like dementia or HIV like we recently did, we're always going to have humor in there respectfully and in the right ways. Sure. Because that's what we do. Plus also... That helps. When we're getting this stuff across, it's not like we're causing dementia. We're just saying like here's all the information that we found on this. Here's everything you need to know about dementia. Yeah.
And I think the thing that allows us to go from, you know, a lighthearted topic to a very dark topic to whatever is that we're putting it out there as objectively as possible or as unbiased as possible. Trying to. We're not passing much judgment on it, depending on the topic. But for the most part, we don't really pass too much judgment on it.
And I think that allows us to talk about anything. Yeah, and as far as taking it home, if we do something that's a big bummer that really impacts me, it'll bum me out for sure. But just like anything else, I think knowledge is key to the more you know about something, the less scared you might be of it. Yeah. How's that? You just go work it out, you know?
Good answer? Yeah, that's a great answer, Chuck. You too. If you want to get in touch with Chuck or me or Jerry or anybody who we could conceivably pass a message along to, you can send us an email to stuffpodcasts.howstuffworks.com. And as always, join us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com.
Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
This election season, the stakes are higher than ever. I think the choice is clear in this election. Join me, Charlemagne Tha God, for We The People, an audio town hall with Vice President Kamala Harris and you, live from Detroit, Michigan, exclusively on iHeartRadio. They'll tackle the tough questions, depressing issues, and the future of our nation. We may not see eye to eye on every issue, but America, we are not going back.
Don't miss this powerful conversation with Vice President Kamala Harris. Tomorrow at 5 p.m. Eastern, 2 p.m. Pacific on the free iHeartRadio app's Hip Hop Beat Station. Do you ever wonder where your favorite foods come from? Like what's the history behind bacon-wrapped hot dogs? Hi, I'm Eva Longoria. Hi, I'm Maite Gomez-Rejon. Our podcast, Hungry for History, is back. And
And this season, we're taking an even bigger bite out of the most delicious food and its history. Seeing that the most popular cocktail is the margarita, followed by the mojito from Cuba, and the piña colada from Puerto Rico. Listen to Hungry for History on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey friends, I'm Jessica Capshaw. And this is Camilla Luddington. And we have a new podcast, Call It What It Is.
You may know us from Graceland Memorial, but did you know that we are actually besties in real life? And as all besties do, we navigate the highs and lows of life together. Big or small, we're there. And now here we are opening up the friendship circle to you. Listen to Call It What It Is on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
