The Reluctant Disciple with Robin Pou
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Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.

I want to thank Charlie. He's an incredible guy. His spirit, his love of this country. He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA. We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That's why we are here.

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Kurt Schlichter joining us now. Kurt, welcome to the program. Kurt, your grade, your reaction to the debate we saw last night. Look, everybody talks about how good J.D. Vance is. Of course, he's good. He's a he's an attorney and he's a good attorney. Keep in mind.

Not all attorneys are like that. I never cease to amaze me the poor quality of litigators that I see in other courtrooms who can't put together an argument, can't string together the words to compose a sentence.

But J.D. Vance went in and he did a really good job. I thought it was definitely a strategic choice of his to be nice. He could have been a lot more brutal. And there were a lot of openings that he didn't run through that I think he skipped on purpose because he was trying to introduce himself to people who didn't know him. We haven't talked enough about Tim Waltz in this big conversation, I think.

And I got to say, I don't think Tim Walt was terrible. I think he did a competent job, a layperson's job, a person who doesn't argue for a living, a person who's in a blue bubble and doesn't usually have to argue to defend his points. For that, I don't think he did terribly, and I think he's going to appeal to some people. So we shouldn't get out over our skis. But the fact that J.D. Vance was so good, and he was very, very good,

really should lead us to underestimate the appeal of a guy like Tim Walz. So as we kind of break down some of the elements here, what did you make of J.D. Vance's back and forth with the moderators and his handling of that situation?

Well, Charlie, it's very smooth and it's almost obligatory now. I mean, after we saw how Newt Gingrich started by calling out the biased moderators, Donald Trump calls out moderators, confronts everybody in sight, and we've had other candidates do it too. I think folks like you and I expect our candidates to confront biased moderators. The day of a sheepish election,

Mitt Romney cowering in front of a behemoth like Candy Crowley when she, you know, makes a false fact check.

Those days are over. We're not going to tolerate that. So J.D. Vance knew what he had to do when they started playing their shenanigans. He started mansplaining. And frankly, those ladies, I guess, needed a man to explain because they either didn't know what the hell they were talking about or they were lying. Either way, they were giving their audience bad information. And J.D. Vance wasn't going to stand for that nonsense.

So a lesser reported news story seems to be about Doug Emhoff. You know, there's this whole idea that, you know, Doug Emhoff is the best version of the American male. And let's just understand. Here's what we understand about Doug Emhoff is that he impregnated his kid's nanny. He then physically assaulted his girlfriend, lectured us on toxic masculinity, and then hailed for redefining masculinity and now allegedly raping

slapped one of his girlfriends. Walk us through the latest revelations here, Kurt. Well, apparently he was off with his girlfriend, who was another prominent lawyer, and they were in France. And apparently she dared talk to somebody else. And he decided he was going to smack her. And this is completely alien to us. You know, as conservatives, you look at this and you're like, we know who that guy is.

He's the loudmouth in a bar screaming at his girlfriend and threatening her. And then you've got to get up and go, hey, dude, you need to chill or, you know, somebody's going to get smacked, ain't going to be your girlfriend. The thing is, the feminists, you know, these bizarre MSNBC feminists,

have embraced Imhoff as this new kind of man. Jen Psaki is out there. Oh, you're redefining masculinity. Yeah, it's a bad definition. And I think they think at some weird subconscious level, because I think feminism is really the manifestation of a lot of daddy issues and personal psychodramas among affluent girls who never fully grew up. I think they like it.

at some weird, creepy level. I think they like the idea of a guy who'll push them around, who'll treat them like garbage, who'll treat them like trash. And it sounds bizarre to us. It's alien and weird. And the women that you and I are around would not put up with that, okay? I mean, if I tried that stuff, you know, I'd be ventilated, you know, .45 caliber style, and properly so. But...

I look, I think there's a lot of weird psychosis going on with these feminists. You look at the rates of mental illness among liberal women and it's off the charts. So there's something weird going on here. I think women have a sixth sense about who's the bad guy. And frankly, I think some of them are just attracted to it. And that's that's part of feminism. It's called the Forrest Gump thing.

Do you remember the Jenny's boyfriend and Forrest Gump flaps around and blame Lyndon B. Johnson in the Vietnam War? That's this guy to a T. So, Kurt, I want to shift gears here for the final push to the election. What is your analysis of the state of the race and what does Trump need to do to close strong these last 30 days? Look, I keep hearing how it's closed. It is closed.

But I think Trump and J.D. are moving ahead. Keep doing what you're doing. Get out there. Make your case. Go on the podcast.

that the leftist would never deign to be on. Talk to the people they would never speak to. Get out there and make your case to folks who don't usually vote and inspire them. And I think that's what's happening. I'm feeling an excitement. All the fundamentals are there. I feel good about it.

Which means we should work 10 times as hard. Everybody get out there and channel Scott Pressler. Get out there, get your friends and neighbors to go out and vote. So in closing here, Kurt, your take on the wrinkle of Tulsi Gabbard, RFK, this new unity ticket. I love that J.D. Vance mentioned this yesterday. I think this could be a defining factor in how the Trump movement is more diverse, ideologically diverse than the Democrats. Your thoughts.

Look, I don't agree with RFK about a lot of things. I don't agree with Tulsi Gabbard about a lot of things. But we agree at the premises. We agree that it's important for every single American citizen to be respected and have a say in his or her government. It's important that every American have the right to speak freely, even if it's things you or I don't want to hear or they don't want to hear. You know, these things used to be common ground.

But now you have a waltz last night explaining that the government can censor speech as long as it's labeled hate speech and citing that idiotic shouting fire in a crowded theater meme that, speaking of a lawyer, you're going to have to trust me, not a thing. Okay? It's constitutionally illiterate. The beauty of this coalition is this is a coalition of normal people 30 years ago.

Okay, where we all agreed on some basic things, and we disagree on others. Maybe our fan, I have some disagreements on vaccines. Maybe we have some disagreements on foreign policy between me and Tulsi Gabbard. I don't doubt her. I know her military service. And I respect it just like I'm sure she'd respect mine.

But we agree on the premises. The left today, Charlie, does not agree on the premises. It does not agree that every American should be treated equally. It does not agree. They do not agree that everybody should be able to participate in their government. And they certainly don't agree that everyone should be able to say what's on their mind. Kurt Schlichter, plug your book, which is awfully applicable given what's happening in the Middle East right now.

The attack. It is a novel, but it's a with a lot of detail and realism about a massive terrorist attack in the United States facilitated by our wide open borders. Charlie, this could happen. And I'm afraid it will.

That's why whenever I can, whenever I'm in a free state, I carry a weapon with me. Why? Because you never know when this is going to occur. It's not going to be just one guy, not going to be 10 guys. It's going to be hundreds of guys allowed in through our country by the negligence of Biden-Harris.

and a distracted FBI that's not bothering the terrorists, not bothering the school children, only bothering with Americans who simply want to participate in their own government. Kurt, thank you so much. Excellent work as always.

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A really great guest in studio, Robin Pugh, who I've known for a while. Robin, welcome. Yeah, thank you, Charlie. Thanks for having me. Author of a very important book, The Reluctant Disciple. It's funny, I was having lunch with Robin earlier this year, I think it was in January, and you were telling me this story on how you went on a mission trip and you got kidnapped. And I was like, you need to write in the book. You're like, actually, it is in a book and you're writing it. And so tell us about this. I mean, it was the impetus of this book. And

and you almost died. You got kidnapped, and it was this divine intervention. Tell us all about it. Yeah, so the book The Reluctant Disciple is a fictional parable that is based on just this true story that you're mentioning. So in 2007, headed to Africa on a missions trip with our church, and it's a very long story, but the crux of it is we were coming out of the bush after a welcome celebration for the village that we were going to be serving for 10 days, Jethini, about five hours away.

from Nairobi at the base of Mount Kenya. And we got pulled over by a rogue band of thugs. And I was sort of thinking, well, you know, just get them their $400 and we'll be on our way. And our project manager, Protasio, who was sitting in front of me, started screaming in Swahili. And I realized he was otherwise a pretty cool customer.

and something was not going to go right. And immediately I heard a loud pop, and the window shattered, and he slumped forward, and they reached in, opened the door, and he fell out lifeless.

So the whole time I thought that they had shot the gun and that he was dead or dying. What had ended up happening just to suspend, you know, all the suspense was that they had broken the glass with the butt of the gun and knocked him out. And so what happened was they started tapping on my window and I really looked away because I was trying to disappear myself. Like this was happening, but I didn't, my brain wasn't catching up to it.

And so with my own free will, I literally had to reach over and unlock the door because I had seen right in front of me what would happen if I didn't obey. And I opened the jump door, and what transpired was two hours of being held against our will. It was the most –

verbally brutal and physically brutal event that I could ever hope to not have happen. And I don't even like to say that we Americans were even mishandled, even though we were mistreated, because they beat the holy tar out of the Africans that were with us, the expats that were with us and all the, you know, our hosts.

And so that was really problematic, but it just showcased the evil. Anyway, at the very end, or what ended up being the very end, they stood us up, did a very official police pat down and said, we will not hurt you. And they laid us face down in the ditch by the side of the road.

And so how did that segue then into the book? Yeah. And so, you know, in the ditch that night, I just was immediately thinking of my grandmother who died six months earlier. I was going to be at the pearly gates. She would say, what are you doing here? Because by all earthly accounts, about 50 years should separate us.

her entry into heaven and mine. And then I realized that if 13 people were dead or dying in a ditch by the side of the road in otherwise peaceful Kenya at that time, the whole world was going to know about it, especially if we were Christian missionaries. And then I realized, oh my gosh, the purpose of my life is going to be my death, because in my death, God would shine a light on this region and eradicate this evil.

And so I just started saying the Lord's Prayer and got to deliver us from evil. And a set of headlights was coming down the road and spooked the bad guys off. And so as we scrambled to get into the vans, the headlights caught up to us, and it was an all-white delivery van. Deliver us from evil, and here's a delivery van standing between us and the bad guys. We'd seen no cars going in, no cars coming out. There were no homes to deliver anything to at 1030 at night.

And so in my own personal debrief, I was like, okay, wait a minute, Lord. First of all, you saved me. So good on you. That's great. Appreciate that. But second, if the purpose of my life was going to be my death in that ditch and you miraculously saved me and now I don't have this purpose, what is the purpose of my life? And he said, Robin, tonight I do not demand your life. Knowing that you would give it to me is all that I ask. Get up, dust yourself off, and let's get to work.

And so from that point on, I'm living on extra days because I died in that ditch. And so taking this book and really making it available to everybody to understand these types of circumstances in your life, because every single person that's listening to this right now is either going into a ditch, in a ditch, or coming out of a ditch. And they're wondering why.

And so this book is meant to help illuminate that question for them. It's great. The book is The Reluctant Disciple, a parable about reconciling faith and business. And I'm just going to read part of this from the back. If you're in the business world, you might be asking, is that all there is? Robin wrote The Reluctant Disciple to encourage you on your own journey to reconcile your own professional life with your faith.

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Robin Pugh is with us, author of The Reluctant Disciple, a parable about reconciling faith and business. So let's talk about that. A lot of people here are listening on podcasting, and they're in a business world where it's hard to share their faith, hard to share their values. Talk about how you should reconcile your calling for Jesus or your calling in the marketplace. Yeah, I mean, somebody once told me, you either need a missionary or you are a missionary. And

And so if you need a missionary, then make sure that you're walking with somebody who can be on that faith journey with you. And yet, if you are a missionary, not everybody's called to vocational ministry. And so most of us are called to the marketplace. And if you have faith as a priority in your life—so you may not be a sold-out believer, but you're not hostile to it—if you're sitting in the pews at church, the pastor's telling you, "'Go love on people.'"

And so men in the marketplace and women who are wondering, well, wait a minute, I have to swim with the sharks Monday through Friday. How am I going to go love on people? And then if I am faith forward, is that going to be a hostile environment for me?

And so I just had this deep sense to actually write this book as a source of encouragement to say, you can live a fully integrated life. You don't have to be one way in the workplace and then one way on Sunday or the weekend.

And so I was going to write a memoir, and this book coach that I was working with was saying, okay, what are you trying to accomplish? And I said, I want to activate the single largest sitting army in the world, which are the believers in the pews at church. I mean, think about the inventory of spiritual gifts and capacity and influence and relationship. If that was truly activated for the cause of faith and liberty and freedom, I mean, what our country has been built on.

I mean, imagine if that was unlocked. And yet there's this governor, this sort of depressive governor on our ability to share our faith. And so I wanted to share the actual memoir of the story. And he was like, wait a minute. So you're telling me you've got to get fired. You have to have a mission strip to Kenya. You have to have a gun to your head and a machete to your neck. And you have to have a near-death experience. And you're expecting people to read that and be activated for God? And I said, yeah, absolutely.

And he goes, I don't think that that's going to fulfill the purpose of the book. And I said, okay, big shot, what do you recommend? And he said a fictional parable. And I was like, oh, okay, I'm out. I don't know.

I don't know how to write a fictional parable. And so here we are, fast forward. The reason that it's a fictional parable is because it's the everyman story. It's the every person's story. So some of the best compliments I've gotten are I've never been in the head of a main character of a book as much as I was in Peter Christensen, the protagonist of this book.

And so that's the whole purpose of making it available for people to be able to put themselves in this story and say, okay, this is what it means to actually step forward and marry my faith with my marketplace calling. Why do you think that so many Christians are hesitant to speak their values and express their worldview in the marketplace?

Number one, I don't know that they know what their values are. I think we've got a massive identity crisis. And so if I'm thinking about my identity in the marketplace, I'm only as good as whoever's telling me that I'm doing a good job on that particular day. What we're talking about here is your identity in Christ and true truth.

And so if you're not understanding what true truth is, like who you are in the faith in Christ, then you will never step out, hot sports opinion, you will never step out and actually share that because you're just day trading on your position inside of the marketplace. But if you're anchored in the truth of who you are and who God is and who you are in your relationship with him,

Then you'll step out more boldly. So the part of also what you do professionally is developing leaders. Yeah. Talk about that because there seems to be a leadership crisis in the West of people that aren't sure, you

you know, who to follow, what a leader actually is, and how does that intersect with your book and, you know, our desire to fight for liberty in Christ? Yeah. So I started a leadership development firm about 14 years ago, trained and practiced law for five years, owner-operator of different businesses over a decade. And then I found this industry, if you will. And so I used to build businesses, and now I build into the leaders who build businesses because leaders cast a long shadow. And

And that shadow is either a positive impact or a negative impact. And the leaders that I work with only work with successful leaders. I don't pick them. They pick me. If you don't care about your people, then you're not hiring an executive coach or a leadership development expert to help you improve your leadership. They almost to a person say, I fear I'm becoming the leader that I swore I would never be.

Because bad leadership leaves a significant imprint on us. And if we don't know how to actually be a good leader, we will just continue that generational impact from bad leadership. So when you deal with leaders, what are the characteristics that define a good leader versus a not so good leader?

Yeah. So Collins in his book, Good to Great, sort of imprinted on all of us a couple of decades ago. And the number one thing that he says, a level five leader is humility. So think about a captain of industry who's raising his hand or her hand to say, you know what? I need a coach.

So Harvard Business Review did a survey of the Fortune 500 CEOs that utilized a coach, and it was only about 50%. And they reported a 7 to 41x return. And when they took all the qualitative data and they quantified it, they were able to say, gosh, the leader, like I said, casts a long shadow. When the top leader is focusing on raising their leadership lid, the entire organization benefits.

So if you start with humility to say, hey, I need some assistance, these are the same people who are hiring fitness trainers and nutritionists. I mean, they're trying to operate, optimize for their maximum. And so I would say that's the number one trait. And then the second is that they care about their people. They genuinely have care and compassion for the people that they work with, that they do their leadership in and through.

Do you believe that leadership, you're born a leader or that it is developed? That is such a great question. So I believe that there are some natural born leaders who

But the majority of us are developed leaders. We're trained leaders. In fact, I'm betting my entire career on the fact that leaders can be built, that they can be trained because there's an entire science to leadership. And leadership really is just influence. You either have functional leadership or positional. So have you ever worked at an environment where the front desk person has more influence than almost anybody else in the organization?

They're a leader because they are able to utilize their role to influence others. So leadership isn't this high-minded thing. It's basically your ability to understand your influence and use it for good. So when you try to replicate other leaders, what is the one, two, or three? I'm sure you talk about this in the book. Yeah.

of the standard operating procedure to try to do that? Yeah. So we've got a five-part leadership development framework and we call it the confident leader. If you're 70% confident, which sounds like a pretty high percentage, you're 70% confident, you're 30% doubtful and doubt changes your performance level every single time. So the three things, if I were to pull out of our five-part framework is you've got to have a vision.

So think about a leader that isn't able to communicate where they are going or where they're taking the team.

I mean, this is playing out right now. Without a vision, people perish. Yeah. Without vision, people perish. And write the vision plain on tablet so that he who runs may read it. So this is Habakkuk 2.2, right? Or Habakkuk, as my son calls it. And then the second is identity. So you're on the team because of your strengths.

So many leaders are focusing on their deficiencies and they have this idea that you can make your weakness your greatest strength. You can't do that. Where does that come from? I have no idea. It's like some sort of weird self-help thing. Well, I think it's the enemy speaking to us, which is this is why you're not good and we want to be able to solve for that. And yet you're not on the team because of your weaknesses. You're on the team because of your strengths. And this is why we work on teams when we have the complement team.

of strengths. And then the third piece, so if we have vision and then we have identity, would be purpose, which is the why. Why, Charlie, are you doing this job, this job that causes you to, in this moment in time, work 23 hours a day? What is your why? Because... To save Western civilization. There you go. Only a very small, you know, hot of steaks. As abstract as one can get. Well, and think about Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning. One of my favorite books.

30 million copies sold. He, you know, bases that on Nietzsche who says, he who has a why can bear almost any how. Mm-hmm.

So how you have to march through the next 33 days might be very challenging, but you're armed with your why. I mean, Simon Sinek has made an empire on answering this age old question. Why start with why? And it's very powerful. So vision, identity and why would be three pieces from your perspective, just generally. And I know this is one of the reason you wrote the book. Why is it that so many young people are lacking a why?

That's a great question. I think that if I were to summarize it, I think everybody else has been telling them what their why is up to this point, and they haven't actually had to think about it for themselves. And if everything is served up for them and their parents or other people are answering that question for them, it's like, wait a minute, now I'm in the real world, perhaps. Who's going to answer that question for me? That's why this is so important.

Anybody that is dissatisfied with their life either doesn't have the answer to the question why or somebody has answered that for them.

So you're either going to have somebody else define your why, or you're going to stand on your own ground and say, this is why I'm doing this. And if a Christian is lacking a why, that's a problem, because you should have an ultimate why as a Christian, correct? Yeah, I mean, the grand why is to glorify God, and then the calling, which is based on how you're uniquely wired, that's your individual unique why.

And in the book and in your work, you help people develop that.

Yeah, I mean, it's central. I mean, your why is your intrinsic motivation for everything that you do, because sometimes we're lazy and we just don't want to do it. So what is that drive? What is that motivation that otherwise gets us through those challenging times? I mean, Peter in the book hits a pretty significant wall and wrote it in such a way that it allows people to say, wow, that's me. And when you hit that brick wall, wow.

are you going to crumble or are you going to move through that? The book is The Reluctant Disciple by Robin Pugh.

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Robin, let's keep talking about leadership. What if someone says, though, I'm not a leader and I can't become a leader? Yeah, well, I mean, do they have a desire to be a leader? Or maybe they're thrown a place where they have to be a leader. Yeah, so— So you, sir, are now a leader. Yeah, well, and this is happening with the great resignation. If you think about it from a couple of years ago, if you've got this flight of leaders leaving your organization—

The way that you keep the people who are still there is that you promote them. And so a little bit of an epidemic is people being promoted beyond their skill level. And so you will hear these leaders. So talking about managers or directors or vice presidents, they're like, oh my gosh, Robin, I'm an accidental leader. Like, I don't even know how I got here. I do the thing really well. And now I'm in charge of the people who do the thing. And some of those people are my peers.

And so the question is, do you have the will or the skill? If you don't have the will to be a leader, then you should question whether or not you should be in that spot. If it's just a function of I desire to be a leader or I desire to steward this role really well, but I don't have this skill, then

Then that goes back to, well, we can develop those skills. I mean, we have a six-month leadership intensive that we do for— What does that look like? What is the—what do you do to those leaders? Yeah, so we bring them through a pretty significant curriculum that is anchored by an emotional intelligence assessment program.

We think that the emotionally intelligent leader going forward is going to be the one who wins the day. So emotional intelligence, people think, oh, it's based off of emotions. They're emotional or not emotional. And that's not really what it is. It's 15 specific skills.

that you can develop. - Name some of them. - Yeah, so there's reality testing, there's optimism, there's flexibility. And so it's how well are you aware of the emotions that you're having, how are you expressing those, building relationships, managing stress, and making decisions.

The two emotional intelligence skills that I think are the most important are reality testing. Are you seeing the world the way it actually is or the way you want to see it? What do you find? That's super interesting to me. Why is that resonating with you? Well, because we're governed by people that don't see reality. Okay. And so you've got people that see things more skeptical than they actually are or more optimistic. And you want to be within reality.

Yeah, you want to be able to see the facts as they are. So how do you go about making sure that you, Charlie, are seeing things the way they are? What are some tactics? I have no idea. Okay, so you would surround yourself with other people who are like, are we seeing the same thing? And so you're able to actually communicate with others because then leaders go make decisions on those. Based on that. So is there a practice that you can go through to be more in –

The real and less in the pessimistic or optimistic. Yeah, I think being on your leadership team, being able to have people communicate. No, you're seeing this more skeptical than it actually is, or you're seeing it more optimistic. And so if you've got this feedback culture where you are actually open as a leader for your team to give you feedback and you say, oh, but.

But, well, if you say but to them, that erases everything that they just shared. In closing here, you mentor, coach top business leaders. Not all of them are Christian or godly. Can you talk about the kind of the people that are very, very wealthy, but they don't have God and the emptiness that sometimes you see in their life and the need for advice for people that are young that it's not just about business success, but putting the divine, the eternal, and the beautiful together?

Yeah, so I'm not a Christian executive coach or leadership development expert. I want to be the best executive coach that I can possibly be because I want to be able to be in the company of influencers so that I can influence them with God's wisdom, not my wisdom, because I'm going to run out of stuff. So if God's going to give me supernatural wisdom, how then do I show up for those people?

So they find me, and prior to writing this book, they may not have even known. It was word of mouth. Yeah. Well, but I'm saying even from a faith-based perspective. Well, now that I've published a book that is clearly faith-based, it's like, okay, this is what his beliefs are. Right.

But the point is, is that as I'm chatting with them, everything that's rooted, everything that I coach is rooted in scripture. And so even though I may not be quoting chapter and verse, God's word does not return void. And they're like, wait a minute, write the vision plain on tablet so that he who runs may read it. Where'd that come from? I'm like, oh, it's an old parable or an old proverb.

And so just being able to offer that to those folks. The reluctant disciple. Check it out, Robin Pugh. Thank you, Robin. Thanks, Charlie. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com. Thanks so much for listening and God bless. For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to charliekirk.com.

The best picture of the year.

I had to find the truth. Conclave. Rated PG. Parental guidance suggested. Now playing only in theaters.