Extended cut: Dakota Johnson on her new doc, childhood, and curating a sex museum
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Hey, it's Peter Sagal. So, uh, it's the season of giving, right? And we at Wait, Wait, of course, are in a giving mood. So we're here with an episode that we would normally only share with our Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me Plus supporters. But this, um, spirit of Christmas visited me in my sleep last night and all of a sudden I have a new perspective. So we're going to share it with everyone. It is an extended cut of our recent interview with actor, producer, and activist Dakota Johnson. That's right.

an extended cut. In our regular show, we normally have time to broadcast about six or seven minutes of our celebrity interviews. Got a lot else we need to do, right? But often, we bother those celebrities for much longer. And Dakota Johnson was very kind, and she let us do that. We asked her more about her work on the Fifty Shades of Grey trilogy, her movie star parents'

and grandparents, Tippi Hedren, anyone? And her new documentary about the legacy of feminist sex researcher Cher Haidt. It's called The Disappearance of Cher Haidt and...

Just a little editorial comment here. It is really interesting, and I highly recommend you watch it. So now is a good time to tell you, if you hadn't figured it out already, that this conversation does, shall we say, linger on the subject of sex. So here it is, our interview with Dakota Johnson, and you might hear panelists Adam Felber, Joyelle Nicole Johnson, and Alonzo Bowden as well.

Thank you for being with us. I, you know, I like old Hollywood stories and I'm just amazed by, I don't know what to call it, but your pedigree. Your grandmother was Tippi Hedren, who is, of course, a star back in the day. She starred in The Birds. Your mother, Melanie Griffith, your father, Don Johnson, they broke up and then your mother married Antonio Banderas. So you grew up

I don't know how to put it. And like with the A-list, I just have to ask, what was that like? If you can even like put a description to it. Well, I would tell you different things that I tell my therapist. Okay. I know that's nice.

I have young children right now, and I know that for young children, the world is just the world around them. They just assume that's what the world is like. So...

How old were you when you realized that not everybody's parents were, for example, photographed by paparazzi whenever they went out in public? I mean, that your life was unusual. Yeah. Yes, that was the tricky thing to have to try to understand as a child because, you know, I think...

you innately feel scared when somebody comes at you with a camera. It's not a very normal thing to have to deal with, and it's certainly not normal to have your family talked about in the tabloids or in the news. That was always difficult, but

I guess it is true. That's what I knew. So I also... I was in school when we were in Los Angeles. I was enrolled in a school and I had friends there and I had a pretty stable...

for how unstable it was, if that makes sense. It kind of does. I read once in an interview you said you had, but you never had any doubt that you wanted to go into the business too, into entertainment, to be an actor, a performer. I was desperate from day one. Really? You looked around, you were like looking at mom, dad, and you were like, that's what I want to do.

I couldn't wait. I was always like trying on her wardrobe and the trailer and trying on her gowns and dresses. You know, I couldn't wait. And I was studying everybody always. I was always wanting to watch on set and I was always wanting to be behind the monitors and watch them and...

you know, be in the hair and makeup trailer. I just was obsessed with everything that they did. Wow. That's really, now there's sort of two related questions though. The first is in addition to of course, living with your parents, you also saw them on screens. You saw them on big films and television shows. Was that unusual to see your mom say, just be someone entirely different? I'm thinking again of you as a young child.

I think I had a funny, you know, it's interesting because a few nights ago, my friend is one of the kind of founders of Vidiot, this organization in LA that hosts screenings of movies. And they sometimes have people come and do Q&As and things. And they were showing Working Girl. So he asked me if my mom would go. So I brought her.

And we watched the movie and she hadn't seen the movie in 35 years since it came out, since she was at the premiere. And we watched the movie together with an audience and people were dying for her. They were like whooping and screaming and clapping. And she felt so blown away by it. She was so caught off guard. And I was watching her performance. And I think when I was younger, watching her didn't, it didn't like,

I don't know. There's something so special about her and her artistry and the way she performs. And it's almost like devastating in the most beautiful way. And I think when I was younger, I was like, yeah, that's my mom. And I can tell that she's really good, but that's my mom. So, okay, let's move on. And I'd rather watch, you know, some other... LAUGHTER

Could you offend your parents? Like, oh, you know, your dad's like, oh, Nash Bridges is on tonight. You're like, yeah, no. Yeah, I'd rather watch the OC dad, you know, than a kid. It's a kind of rebellion. All right. Relating. I'm sorry. Please go ahead. But watching her now as a woman, I think, is a very different experience. You mean the fact that you're a woman as opposed to a little child? Yes. Right. That's what I meant. Yeah, okay. Okay.

She's always been a woman. Yes. I remember. I've seen her in films. It must have been, especially thinking of your grandmother, Tippi Hedren, who lets, I mean, my understanding is that she was more or less, because she didn't want to give in to Alfred Hitchcock, shall we say, attentions, her career was over. It must have been that you were, you must have had your guard up going, let me put it this way.

Did you feel prepared for what fame and stardom might bring to you because of the experience of your relatives? In some ways, but I think...

Social media plays a very different part in that these days. And they didn't have to handle it. They didn't have to deal with that. My grandmother, especially, was more... She was a movie star when she was on a red carpet. But when she was walking down the street, she was walking down the street. Whatever she had to deal with, she never became a meme.

She never became a meme. Sometimes now she's a meme with like the photos of the tigers jumping through the window of her house, but that's when she took a different career. Yeah, I should point out to people who do not know that that was not an obscure sequel to the birds, the tigers. That is something that Tippi Hedren has devoted her life to, to providing sanctuary for wild animals. So there you are. Let me ask you about Fifty Shades of Grey. I want to get to what you're doing now, which is fascinating, but

So, going back to like the early 2010s, Fifty Shades of Grey, huge literary sensation, biggest bestseller, everybody knew the movie was going to be enormous. So, when you went up for the role, did you know what it would do if you got it and were you ready for that?

I don't think I had a full grasp of what it would do, and I don't think that I was fully ready for it. Yeah. But I guess I understood on some level that it was going... I mean, the hope was that it would be a hit and that it would be good, because, you know, I think that's what you want. You want your work to end up being good. It doesn't always, but...

I don't know, I guess to an extent I understood that it would be popular because the books were so popular and I think people were so speculative. They were so curious about what it would be like that that was a lot of where the drive to the cinema came from, I think. But...

No, I don't think there's a way to be fully prepared for that. Yeah, I can't imagine. But I also thought that if anybody might be, it might be you, given the experience in your family. But did your parents or step-parents or anybody have any advice for you as that portion of your life began? Like, okay, this is going to happen. You got to be ready. Yeah.

My grandmother, you know, I had never done a big... I had never done big press junkets or a press tour or anything like that. And she...

She was like, you know, you're going to get asked a lot of questions and sometimes someone will ask you a question, but you don't always have to answer just because somebody asked. Right. And I was like, oh, okay, so I'll just be quiet. And I remember having these really uncomfortable moments where I didn't want to answer a question. So I'd say absolutely nothing, like not a word. And the person thought that I was malfunctioning or like having some kind of...

Yeah, that's not allowed. You're supposed to blather mindlessly. Don't you know the rules? Yeah, or you're supposed to say some really clever response that answers but doesn't answer and then tells the person that you're not answering the question and to move on or get out.

Right. You know? And you just sat and stared at them in silent judgment. Yeah, I was just like, well, she said to not say anything if I didn't want to say anything, so I'm not going to say anything. I'm also guessing that the junkets for the Fifty Shades movies had more than the usual share of questions that you don't want to answer, right? Yes, especially in certain countries. Like, Germany was weird. Ah! Ah!

Can you tell us more, Fraulein, about that? Of all the countries, Germany was the weirdest? I would like to show you a video and get your reaction to it. I made it myself.

Scary. I actually, I had not seen the movie, I'm going to confess, so I watched it this week. Oh. Are you okay? I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm okay. Okay.

One of the many things... Well, you said that while you were covering your face. Oh, my God. I forgot. He can see you. He can see you. I was about to say. I didn't... I forgot for a moment that she could see me while I was having a personal moment. But I realized it's only turnabout is fair play, I guess, because... Anyway...

One of the many things amazing is like I have never seen a movie with better production design in my life. It's so, I mean, put aside the sex. That cannot be true. No, no, really? Because like, oh my God. That's insane. No, like Christian's apartment is amazing. Have I just not been around enough? I don't know. I mean, have you ever seen another movie? I can't. Really? Oh, wait a minute. Yeah.

Dakota, can I say I think you're prepared for any question. Yeah, I know. Wait a minute, if I understand correctly, I'm just supposed to stare at you in silence now. Wait a minute, no, I was going to go someplace else, but are you saying that you're not like, you do not think like the quality of the filmmaking was top notch? Is that what you're saying? I do. Of course, I think it was very well done. Do I think it's the

best production design of all time. No. Okay. That's fair. That's fair. I was just going to ask if you kept anything from the set, like, you know, a particularly nice flogger. I have no idea. Actually, yeah. You did? What did you keep? A particularly nice flogger. Of course. Of course.

Jamie Dornan, who plays Christian Grey in the movies, he had a flogger framed for me and gave it to me as a wrap gift. He framed a flogger for you? Yeah. I was like, well, what use is that, right? Yeah. Get it out.

I assume it's like in one of those display boxes, does it have like, in case of really saucy times, break glass. Yeah, it was like something funny from the shoot, I think, that was engraved in the, yes, it was like a nice case. I don't know, it's in my garage somewhere. LAUGHTER

Somewhere. You know, with all the other floggers. I have to say I'm still stuck on the production design question too. Me too. I mean, it wasn't Dune. No. There was a movie with some production design. But it looked really nice. It was a nice apartment. It was a guy's apartment. He reads Playboy for the articles. Yeah.

I do want you to know, Dakota, though, that before I sat down to watch Fifty Shades, because, you know, I'm talking to you, I actually, the first thing I made sure to do was watch your new documentary, The Disappearance of Cher Hype.

which you produced and also you provide the voice of Cher Haidt reading her work. And it's absolutely fascinating, especially to me, because I'm old enough to have been around during the 70s and 80s when Cher Haidt was very well known. Can you tell us who Cher Haidt was and why you wanted to participate in this documentary about her? Yeah, so Cher Haidt was a sex researcher, educator,

And she really specialized in female sexuality. And she wrote this book called The Hype Report, which is the 30th bestseller on the New York Times list. Of all time. Of all time.

And most people don't know who she is. And I found that incredibly fascinating because she essentially gathered quantifiable data that suggested or proved that the female orgasm is incredibly complex and way more complex than that of a male's and that female sexuality is very different from male sexuality.

And she was just publicly silenced over and over again. She was criticized. She was totally shut down and basically blotted out of history. And she became so, you know, she was really passionate about, uh, trying to educate people and just show that this was real and that women's bodies and sexuality is a different, is a whole different ball game. And, um,

she got fed up with it. It's called The Disappearance of Scherheit and she disappeared to Germany. Where we've already established people are totally cool with all that stuff. Yeah, so I guess it worked out there. And then, you know, sadly she died in 2020 and so then this documentary came along and

Nicole Newnham who directed Crip Camp, which is another incredible documentary. She directed it. She came to us and asked if we would produce it with her and if I would do the voiceover for Cher. I think she came to me because of my work in sexual wellness. I am the co-creative director of a sexual wellness company called Maud.

which is sustainable, affordable, quality sexual wellness products. Right. And I was going to ask you about that. I assume you called it Maud just to capture the incredible erotic energy of Bay Arthur. LAUGHTER

Precisely. Precisely. Precisely that. Yeah, no, you've actually, I mean, it's interesting because, you know, your big movies, the ones that really sort of lifted you up were these, you know, Fifty Shades of Grey movies, which one might argue are sort of a more fantastical view of sexuality. And you've really gotten into sort of like sexual education and this researcher who was all about the actual facts of it.

And was that in any way like a reaction to the fact that you were known for this kind of approach to, I don't know, sexuality and you wanted to sort of lean into the reality of it? Or was it just something you'd always been interested in?

Well, I think having done those movies and been able to... I was interested in those films because of the dynamic between the two people, and that was very intriguing to me. And then from that, having so many conversations over the years with people about sexuality and how...

preferences are different preferences and as long as it's consensual, it's all okay and as long as you're not hurting anybody without their consent. Some people like that.

I guess I have an ease in talking about it and I think that it should be talked about. I think sexual wellness should be more accessible. I think people should be able to take care of their bodies in that way, just like they take their daily vitamins. It's all a part of us. So when I started working with Maud, I guess it is something that I'm incredibly interested in and passionate about

And I'm also like beyond perplexed that this is still a conversation we're having today. Right. It does seem strange. I mean, it's weird. I was watching the Cher Height movie and people were reacting. This all happens on film. This is documentary, right? Of people with such, you know, ignorance and prejudice and stubbornness to what she was telling, which was the truth.

And I'm like, I remember that happening. That was like in my adult lifetime when that happened. It wasn't that long ago. Did you know about, did you know who she was? Yes. As a matter, I do. I didn't know who Cher Haight was. I remember the Haight Report being everywhere. Of course, I was kind of young, so I didn't read it. But I also remember the period that the movie gets into where she was discredited. I'm making, you can see me, I'm making air quotes. Yes, right? Yeah. Discredited and perceived as being kind of nuts or crazy or something like that. And essentially driven out of polite society.

And if you had asked me who Cher Height was before I saw this movie, I would have said, yeah, oh yeah, she was the sex researcher. She was making it all up or something because I just absorbed that. And so seeing that movie was like a really almost frightening reminder of how like

We have been quite recently. Or currently. Yeah, there's that. You actually, you also, I found out, you actually curated an exhibit in the new Museum of Sex in Miami. Yes. So this...

It's a funny thing because obviously all of this ties together in my life. Sexual wellness has become a form of my activism and I'm very proud of that and I am here for it 100%. So we had this opportunity to curate an exhibit in the Museum of Sex, which is opening in Miami next week. And our exhibit is 100 Years of Design and Decency.

And what's really fascinating about going through and curating this exhibit is that, you know, for as long as a sex device like a vibrator has been around,

it has been marketed as, it can't be marketed as a female orgasm tool. It cannot be marketed as like in the, you know, when in the exhibit, we go through decades. And first of all, the, the devices look like they, you would work on your car with them. So scary looking. And,

They're marketed as like an all body device or a facial massager. And, but really you knew what it was for. I do remember. I'm also old enough to remember like the old sharper image catalogs, like, Oh, personal massager. And there was a woman like holding the thing against her upper arm with a weirdly, weirdly broad smile on her face. And I'm like, I'm like 11 years old. I'm going, is her arm that sore? I, right. Yeah. She must do a lot of typing. Yeah.

Yeah, but the thing that's so interesting is that they didn't market it as a device for female sexuality. And today, you can advertise about condoms, you can advertise about erectile dysfunction, but you still cannot advertise about vibrators or female sexual devices. Well... And it's astonishing. Well, fortunately, we can talk about them here.

Well, here I am. Here you are. I know. I got to ask you one last thing. You got to be a superhero. I sure did. You sure did. You've got a new superhero movie coming out, Madam Web, right? Yes. What do you have? There's also vibrators in that movie. There is? So basically it's a consistent theme. So you're doing this vibrator exhibit. You've got the documentary about the sexual education. There's no vibrators in Madam Web. It's a Marvel movie. Damn it.

I was... I just... What kind of madam did you think we were... I'm just thinking that could be a great idea. I mean, I know they're running out of superheroes. Right? So, like, the human vibrator. Right? I volunteer as tribute. She's cornered by the supervillain. What's she going to do? Bam!

All of a sudden, he's very distracted. Thanks again to Dakota Johnson, who is an extremely impressive person in many ways. For more extended cuts of our celebrity interviews, sign up for Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me Plus. Supporters also get a chance to play a monthly news trivia game with yours truly over Zoom, right? Just you, me, a producer, you know.

It's very intimate. And they get to hear the regular show without sponsor messages. You can sign up at plus.npr.org or on our show page in Apple Podcasts. I'm Peter Sagal. Thanks for listening to Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me from NPR. This message comes from NPR sponsor Capella University. Capella's programs teach skills relevant to your career so you can apply what you learn right away. See how Capella can make a difference in your life at capella.edu.

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