She Knew Too Much
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We opened the door and looked in with my flashlight, and that's when I saw this girl slumped over in the seat. There was a lot of blood in her hair. I really thought that she was dead. Didn't appear to be breathing at all. Her name was Angela Michelle Lawless. She was a 19-year-old college student. She was approximately a half a mile from her residence when I found her. There's a lot of things that happened that night. It's still a mystery.

She leaves her boyfriend's house and she was on her way home. It's possible somebody was following her up the interstate. Maybe they knew her and they got her to pull over and stop. If she knew them, and I believe that she did know them, I think she knew how bad they were and how serious this situation was. And maybe that's why she ended off down at the bottom of the hill. Maybe she was running for her life and they caught her. The beating started there.

Once it started, it was like in a rage and there was no stopping it. But the worst part was yet to come whenever she was put back in the car. She was shot three times at point blank range. This was cold-blooded. I think this person is a monster. I was calling monster, calling me a killer, calling me a murderer. Doesn't need to get any worse than that.

Josh Kuser was convicted of the murder of Angela Michelle Lawless, serving 60 years at the state correctional facility. The only thing I remember is when the verdict came back, I went numb. Everything became like I was in a drum. Like all the voices, other than my own, were at a distance. I was yelling that it wasn't me. I didn't do it. There was people that came forward and said that he had bragged about killing Michelle Lawless. I had never met Michelle Lawless.

The night that Michelle was murdered, I was 350 miles away. I'm an innocent man. People kept asking me, do you have the right person in prison? In the back of my mind, there was a possibility that maybe Josh didn't do this. If Josh Keezer didn't do it, I hate to think that there's somebody still out there that's responsible for this and got away with it all these years. I think they should be locked up like the animal that they are. I would very much like to find out who that is. And I will.

The girl who knew too much. Tonight's 48 Hours Mystery. You know, when I look back, I wish that maybe I'd have listened a little more or been there a little more because she was always there for me. More than 19 years have passed since 19-year-old Michelle Lawless was found bludgeoned and shot to death in her car.

Some of this stuff's hard to read. And it's still not easy for her best friend to read the cheery diary that Michelle kept the last year of her life. January 1st. Slept real late. Family went to Mingo and I to Leon's. We loved and ate and talked and rented movies. Made me feel loved today and I am really happy. Love, Him. Great first day of 1992.

Melissa Gaines met Michelle when they were high school freshmen in Benton, Missouri. I had just moved to Kelly High School. Didn't know anybody. Her little bubbly self come bouncing up and introduced herself and it was all over. She was part of my life from that moment on.

While Michelle stood barely five feet tall... She was just little bitty. She was tiny. She was no lightweight. She was a green belt in karate, halfway to earning a black belt. I can't even remember anything she was ever scared of. She was fearless. Would it ever occur to you that Michelle might be in danger? No. No. I mean, that never was a thought to me. Never.

Which is why what happened in the early morning hours of November 8, 1992 was so unexpected, so shocking. How brutal a murder was this? Very. That's Rick Walder, the man with the mustache. He was a 32-year-old part-time deputy sheriff when he discovered the body of Michelle Lawless. This is small town USA. You know, a lot of stuff like this just doesn't happen.

The female's head is slumped over on the passenger seat. Police documented the grisly scene using blood evidence to reconstruct Michelle's final terrifying moments. What appears to be blood splatters on the highway. I believe that she got out of the vehicle, and I think there was an argument. Full of blood, 16, 18 inches away from the left. She ended up over the guardrail and down the bottom of the slope.

A very violent altercation took place. I believe that she was beat at the bottom and knocked unconscious. There was a lot of blood. There appears to be a trail. There's some right there. There's some right there. There was also blood under Michelle's fingernails and marks on her right hand and wrist suggesting she had fought her assailants. I think she was fighting for her life. I think she was fighting more than one person. There was a blood trail going back up the hill.

They carry her across the guardrail. Some blood dripped on the guardrail. They put her back in the car. Here's to be a 380 caliber. It wasn't until investigators searched her car and found three spent shell casings from a 380 handgun

that they realized Michelle had been shot too. I think after she got back in the car, I think that's when she regained conscious and somebody rushed through the window, shot her point blank in the face, shot in the back of the head, and then one more time in the back. I can't imagine what she went through that night.

At the same time Rick Walter was working the crime scene, a 23-year-old local man walked into the sheriff's office with a surprising story. It scared me. I'd never really seen anything like that. Mark Abbott reported that he had also seen the woman in the car. All I remember is her face was just matted and covered with hair and blood. Did you know who it was? No.

Abbott told the dispatcher he thought the woman had been shot and that he tried to call 911, but a nearby payphone was out of order. Pulled out there as fast as I could and went straight to the County Sheriff's Department trying to get an ambulance. As he was leaving, Abbott saw, as he described to investigators, a white car with several dark-skinned Hispanic men driving away from the crime scene. Well, a man for sure and two or three other people.

Michelle's family got the news when authorities came to their door. I answered the door. It's about 3 a.m., I guess. Jason Lawless was 15 when his older sister was killed. I don't do this well. How would you describe the effect on your family? Whoever shot my sister killed my family. Every ounce of it. Every fiber that held it together.

The first suspect was, of course, the last person to admit seeing Michelle alive, the boyfriend she stopped to see, Leon Lamb. What time did she arrive at your house? She was only there about an hour or so, so it could have been 11.30 or 12 at night. And what time did she leave? Just right at 1 a.m. Was Michelle your first love? Yes, ma'am. January 6th.

called Leon and told him I love him so much. And from the entries in her diary, Michelle clearly loved Leon, but they also argued frequently. Michelle was hurt that Leon was seeing other girls. No matter how mean he is to me, I still love him. But that night, says Leon, things were fine, although he remembers Michelle was reluctant to leave his house. Now that I look back, it seemed like that she knew

Something was wrong, maybe. Something was gonna happen. Investigators looked closely at Leon, but they could find nothing to tie him to the scene, and he passed a polygraph. Did you think it could be Leon? He never crossed my mind, no. Why not? I just could never imagine him wanting to harm her like that, ever.

Weeks went by with few other leads and no arrests. And then finally, four months after Michelle's murder, a break, a big one. Several inmates at the county jail reported that a 17-year-old Illinois boy who had been held there briefly on an assault charge had confessed to killing Michelle Lawless. His name was Joshua Kieser.

When Mark Abbott was shown a photo lineup, he picked out Keizer as the driver he saw near the crime scene. Did you say, yeah, this is the guy I saw? I know this is it. No. What did you say? It looks like him, and that looks like the car. That's all investigators needed. Joshua Keizer was charged with the first degree murder of Michelle Lawless. I sit there, stunned. I immediately started to just be shaken and confused.

and i didn't know what was happening i just knew that something very real was happening michelle's family and friends were just as stunned had you ever heard your sister mention the name josh keizer no had you ever heard the name josh keizer no there was no truth to what they were presenting everything was a lie

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We want to know who did it, of course. We just would really like to know why. Was there a purpose behind it?

Valerie Eubanks is Michelle Lawless' kid sister. Was it just a fluke? Was she at the wrong place at the wrong time? Did she walk up on something? You know, you just want to deny it. You don't want it to be true. Esther Lawless is their mother. What do you know about her last hours, who she was with? She was with some of her friends from Sykeston that she hung out with all the time. Driving around in Sykeston, they would drive up and down Main Street and...

park in Malco parking lot or whatever and hang out. It seemed to be a very typical, you know, Saturday night. In the days before November 7th and 8th, did Michelle express any kind of concerns or being afraid of anybody? Not to us, no. Do you think that Michelle would have stopped for a stranger on the street?

Not at all. We always kind of felt that someone she knew was involved, and that's what made her pull over and stop. Which is what made the arrest of Joshua Kieser so puzzling. There's no mention of him anywhere in Michelle's diary. Had you ever met her? Heard her name? No. The first time I'd ever seen her is when my attorney brought me a picture of her obituary. That's the first time I had actually ever seen her face.

When they began to ask me a few questions about some murder, I was like, "Why are they asking me about this stuff?" Josh certainly fit the type. He was a 17-year-old dropout and rumored to be a gang member. He came from a broken home, bouncing between his parents and living on the street. You know, he had long hair. He was dirty. He slept on the street a lot of times and slept wherever he could.

He'd already had a couple different run-ins with the law. I wasn't really that different than most kids that don't have an advantage. I was just going through some very, you know, difficult struggles. Even though Josh insisted he was 350 miles away the night of the murder, investigators hauled him into the office of Bill Farrell, the Scott County Sheriff back then. He settles into his chair like a split second later.

literally comes halfway over his desk and accuses me of killing, and I quote, "his little girl," and that they were charging me with first-degree murder. More than a year later, in June of 1994, Josh Kieser got his day in court. What did you believe would happen at the trial? I believed I would win. What were they going to present? They had blood underneath the victim's fingernails. Was it yours? It was not my type. It was not my DNA.

They did not have fingerprints, palm prints, no weapon, no paper trail, no motive.

But the prosecution did have those jailhouse informants who took the stand and swore that Josh had confessed to the murder. And then, a surprise witness. You went to the trial? Yes, ma'am. Although Chantel Kreider could only see the back of Kieser's head in court, she whispered to a friend that she thought she recognized him as a young man who had argued with Michelle at a Halloween party just one week before her murder.

This guy kept asking her out, and she refused. He was real arrogant and very hateful. What do you mean hateful? He called her a bitch because she kept refusing and was like, leave me alone. Then he asked me out, and I told him, I said, are you crazy? You just asked my best friend out. There's no way. And he slapped me in the back of my hair. Josh Kieser looked like him. It looked-- yeah, it looked like him. Finally, the connection the prosecutor needed.

Chantel was questioned for hours by Sheriff Bill Farrell and became the state's star witness. So you took the stand, and what did you say on the stand? I believed it was Josh. Also on the stand, Mark Abbott, the man who had reported seeing Michelle Lawless in her car the night of her murder. Once again, he identified Josh as the driver of the white car he saw near the crime scene.

But the defense pointed out that Abbott had reported seeing several men that night and had given conflicting descriptions.

They chose to rely on the credibility of a man who first claimed that it was a light-skinned black man, then a carload of Mexicans, and then they finally settled on a pale white kid from Illinois. No physical evidence tied Josh to the murder. This is the leather jacket that they... But the prosecutor told the jury that tests showed there was blood on Josh's jacket and a car he was driving.

At the end of the trial, the jury was out just three and a half hours. I'm sitting there ready to jump, and then the verdict came back guilty. Guilty of second-degree murder in the death of Michelle Lawless. The only thing I remember is when the verdict came back, I went numb. I was confused. I remember hearing myself yelling and screaming, it wasn't me. It wasn't me.

What did you think when he yelled that leaving the courtroom? What else can he say but I didn't do it. Josh Kieser sentenced, 60 years in prison.

Josh was sent to a notorious prison known as The Walls, the Missouri State Penitentiary. Now closed, it was such a violent place. It was once called the bloodiest 47 acres in America. And for nearly 10 years, Josh lived right here in housing unit 4, cell number 99. There was a point that I got attacked when I was in prison.

There were some men who wanted to rape me, and they tried and they failed. Praise God. But in the process of defending myself, I got beat up quite bad and ended up in the hospital. On two occasions, I prayed for death. I didn't want to wake up. We're going toward where Michelle was found that night. There's nothing about this whole case that makes me feel good at all.

In 2005, more than 12 years after finding Michelle Lawless shot dead in her car... Yeah, I go by here a lot. Rick Walger was no longer a part-time deputy. He was now the sheriff of Scott County. I think about the family, and I can't imagine what the family went through.

For years, Walter had nagging doubts about the conviction of Josh Kieser. Talked to the average, everyday layperson, you know, and they would tell me the same thing. This kid didn't do it. So as first order of business, the new sheriff did something extraordinary. He reopened Josh Kieser's case.

You must know how incredibly unusual that is. It's very unusual. In the law enforcement community, that's not a real popular thing to do. This wasn't a cold case. This was a closed case. But Walter, with a wife and three children, quickly discovered that his decision to get to the truth made some people very uncomfortable. You've had death threats? Sure, sure.

Undeterred, Walter hired an investigator from another county, Brandon Cade, who knew nothing about the case, to conduct an independent review of the files. At first, Cade thought he was wasting his time. Reading the court transcripts, everything they had, witnesses that said he confessed, it seemed pretty rock solid when I first read through it. But as he dug through the files, that rock solid case began to crumble.

Every bit of it. Once you really took and examined it piece by piece and just looked at it a little harder, it came apart. Remember those jailhouse informants who claimed Josh had confessed? After getting better deals in exchange for their testimony, these three later admitted they lied. And there's more. This is the leather jacket that belonged to Josh Keezer. And this was evidence that supposedly tied him to the murder. Right, right.

The jury had been told that luminol tests done on this jacket and a car keys are borrowed indicated drops of blood. We had it tested, and in fact, it wasn't blood. It wasn't blood at all? No. And yet the jury in Josh's trial heard it was? Right.

And what about the surprise star witness, Chantel Crider, who connected Josh Kieser to Michelle at the Halloween party? And in fact, did Chantel see Josh at a party? Did she see him arguing with Michelle Longs? No. Was he even at that party? No. How do you know for a fact Josh Kieser wasn't at that party? Dawn Pierce hosted the Halloween party. Because I know every guy that was there that was not a strange man to me.

So why did Chantel testify that Josh was there? She now says she was pushed hard by the then-sheriff, Bill Farrell. Did you feel pressured in that room? Yes, ma'am, I did. I really did. They kept going on and on and on about how my testimony was that important because I was what they needed to link them together.

Just days after the verdict, Don Pierce and another girl who was at the party went to Keizer's attorney and provided a sworn statement. They contacted his defense attorney the next Monday and said that he was not at our party. They had a list of all the kids that was there. That list was given to Sheriff Farrell, but somehow the information went nowhere. Everyone wanted to believe that this thing was done and over with and the guy was in jail.

Jason Lawless believes there was a lot of pressure on Sheriff Farrell to find his sister's killer. He wanted a conviction. He wanted it quick, and he wanted it fast. And he got it. And you're trying to make it right? I'm trying. And I will.

Rick Walter was about to find out he wasn't all alone in his search for the truth. There was absolutely no reason why they convicted him. Jane Williams was a church volunteer at the Missouri State Prison where Josh Kieser was serving out his sentence.

I'm not an attorney. I had never read a trial transcript before. I really knew nothing about any of this. But as I began to just read it and truthfully just pray about it, I felt very clearly that I had to do something about this. Armed with her passion, Jane wrote a detailed summary and found lawyers willing to take Keizer's case for free.

In December of 2008, after spending more than 15 years in prison, Josh finally got what he wanted. Judge Richard Callahan agreed to review his case. Witness after witness testified for Josh. They followed her. They got the wrong guy. Including a tearful Chantel Crider. I regret it horribly. It affects me every day. An innocent man has been locked up.

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Two long months passed after the court hearing. Josh Kieser sat in prison, afraid to get his hopes up. And then on February 17, 2009, Judge Richard Callahan made an unusual ruling. Instead of ordering a new trial, he went ahead and declared Josh Kieser an innocent man. As you sit here today, do you believe that Josh Kieser had anything to do with the murder of Michelle Lawless? Absolutely not.

I believe he was innocent and I so found. I let out this just roar. I mean, I just let it out. I yelled. I shouted with everything I had in me. The very next day, Kieser walked out of prison, a free man for the first time in 16 years. He hugged his mother.

He hugged James Williams, the social worker who had championed his case. For years, he had had to carry that he was a monster killer who brutally killed someone, which was not true. And then he turned to Sheriff Rick Walter. I wanted to thank him personally for what he'd done.

Both the prosecutor, Kenneth Holschoff, and former Sheriff Bill Farrell have declined our request for interviews. But in court documents, Farrell denies any wrongdoing. Here we go. Take care. And Holschoff has said publicly he still believes Kieser's guilty. What do you think of that? I think we've done the right thing, and we move on and try to find out who done this. Sheriff Walters still believes it was someone Michelle knew.

There's people of suspicion. We have right now about six or seven different people that we're definitely interested in and we're looking at.

On that list... Still today, I'm a number one suspect in this murder. Am or am I not? That's right. Mark Abbott, once a star witness for the prosecution. Now, Abbott's account that night raises questions. Questions starting with what he says he did when he found Michelle in her car. I just reached in the window and I grabbed her and she came up. What's wrong with that story?

The side window was only partly open, not wide enough, says the sheriff, to fit Mark's story. You could reach through the window and grab somebody and set them up not the way he said. Did you kill Michelle Lawless? No. But there are a lot of people in this town who think you did? A lot. A lot of people think I did. I've also spoken to a number of people who have said you've bragged about it. One of them was Ron Burton, a gun shop owner and longtime friend of Abbott's family.

Burton remembers one chilling conversation with Abbott soon after Keizer was convicted. He said, and I quote, "I took care of the bitch." And that's what he said, and he kind of had a smirky little grin on his face, and I'll never forget it because it shocked me. Do you think he was kidding? No. No, I don't. Abbott denies ever saying that. You're saying that Ron Burton is lying? Lying.

There's also an affidavit from a narcotics detective who says Abbott told him that he didn't kill Michelle, but watched another man do it. Were you there when someone else killed her? No. He's full of s***. Why would so many people think you're capable of something like this, that they'd point the finger? I don't know what I did to him to anger him like that. They're pointing the finger at you. Why? I do not have an answer to that. I do not.

Abbott says he never met Michelle, but her close friend Melissa Gaines has a different recollection. Did Michelle ever mention a Mark Abbott? Yes. Yes, she did. She had said that she had met Mark Abbott, one of the Abbott boys, and thought he was a good-looking guy. And I told her,

"Michelle, you know, don't mess with either one of the Abbott boys. You know better than that." In fact, there are two Abbott boys. They're identical twins. Those boys, they would change places with each other, you know, from little boys on. You can't tell them apart. Which is why to this day, the sheriff isn't absolutely sure which Abbott brother came in to report finding Michelle.

Two people in the sheriff's office say it was Matt. So was Matt Abbott involved? Was Mark involved? Matt said he never was, but yet we got two people that says he walked in and reported it. They have him down as Matt Abbott. So, you know, that could be a conspiracy, couldn't it?

Mark and Matt Abbott were later convicted on federal drug charges in 1997, making some people in town wonder if maybe Michelle Lawless had something on them. There's a lot of theories out there. One of them was that she had information on their drug dealing. And there's a lot of money involved in that, and that's motive enough for somebody to kill somebody.

Along with Abbott, Sheriff Walter hasn't ruled out Leon Lamb, the last person to admit to seeing Michelle Lawless alive. Did you have anything to do with Michelle Lawless's death? Not at all. I loved her. You know that your DNA was found under her fingernails? Yes, ma'am. And how do you explain that? We had sex that night, and we were both pretty passionate people, so, you know...

Time and again, she did scratch me during sex. But Leon confirms what Michelle wrote in her diary, that the couple had frequent arguments, especially when he saw her with other men. And in fact, the night of her murder, Michelle had run into Leon while she was driving around with male friends. Did that bother you? It did.

because we had been together for three years. - Did she leave the house upset with you or angry with you at all? - No, not at all. I mean, like I said, we hugged, kissed, and said our goodnights, and that was it.

These are only two of a half dozen suspects. Looked like from the pictures that there was some blood transfer. And Sheriff Walter needs more than theories and speculation. This is kind of like behind the knee, right? He needs hard evidence. To find it, he went all the way to the Netherlands to a place known as the crime farm.

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Halfway around the world from Scott County, Missouri, there's a rustic house in the Netherlands known as the Crime Farm.

I came here in hopes to find some DNA. We're looking to maybe get some skin cells off of some of the clothing. Dutch forensic experts Selma and Richard Eichlenboom began the painstaking process of trying to find a killer's DNA. Using techniques not widely available in the U.S., Richard first examines the material with crime scopes. What we're looking for is small stains.

which emit different kinds of light to locate normally invisible spots of skin cells or other material. - Is this actually the fingers up here? - It's like this. - Those spots will be tested for what's called touch or grip DNA. - Number one. - They'll compare what they find with DNA samples from the people of interest on the sheriff's list. They didn't have Mark Abbott's DNA, so they're using a sample from his identical twin, Matt.

Is the DNA of identical twins identical, completely identical? Normally it is. The Dutch team made an intriguing discovery that raises even more doubts about Mark Abbott's story of how he pulled Michelle upright in her seat that night. And where exactly did you grab her? On a shoulder, kind of...

it might have been by the breast a little bit i i can't fully remember but i know it wasn't too far you know if i were the driver yeah your shoulder this shoulder yeah on that side but the dutch couple say they found what is likely avid dna in other places on lawless's clothes i mean did you just grab the shoulder did you grab more of her body to pull her up do you remember i just grabbed the shoulder

I know what he said, where he touched her. If it's somewhere else that he-- it was impossible for him to touch her, that's where we find it, then he has a problem.

In December 2009, Mark Abbott was moved temporarily from the federal prison where he was doing time on those drug charges to Missouri for a hearing on an unrelated charge. - Walter? - Hey. - How you doing? I see you got a lot of busy things going on around here. - You're famous. - Yeah, thanks. I can't thank nobody but you.

Abbott agreed to talk to Sheriff Walter about the lawless case, even offering his own DNA sample, which was shipped off to the crime farm for additional testing. And what about Leon Lamb? The Dutch confirmed that Lamb's DNA is mixed with Michelle's blood that was found under her fingernails. No surprise since Lamb says he had sex with Michelle earlier the night she was killed.

But they don't find anyone else's DNA. And that is something of a surprise, since it appears Michelle fought her attacker. She wouldn't take anything off anybody. She would fight if she needed to. And, you know, I believe she fought for her life that night. A reason to continue looking at Leon, says Sheriff Walter, although he points out Michelle may not have made contact with her assailant.

If she grabbed their clothing, she's not going to get any of their skin cells. You know, unless she got them in the face, there's a good chance that we're not going to get anything. So far, none of the team's findings point conclusively to any one suspect, but Selma Eichlenbaum believes the findings can help the sheriff get someone to talk. These DNA results, it can become a leverage for the sheriff to get things starting up again.

Sheriff Walter is hoping that those DNA results and further investigation will allow him to go to a grand jury soon. A lot of people are really scared about this case. Who are they afraid of or what are they afraid of? Maybe they're afraid of the people that done this. Six months after Josh Kieser was released, we took him back to the now closed prison where he served most of his nearly 16 years in custody. It's now being redeveloped as a museum and office park.

What's it like to be in here? Strangely, way too familiar. And where'd you sleep? Right here. I lived in this cell. Swept this cell, mopped this cell. When you look around here, how would you describe your life now? I am blessed and highly favored. I'm living the dream.

Josh got a job working construction. His own apartment. And he often speaks about his experience advocating for judicial reform. He remains close with Jayme Williams and enjoys strong support from his church community.

He insists he is not bitter. I don't look back at my 16 years in prison and get hateful and angry about all of it. It does not excuse what was done to me. There is no excuse for that. It was wrong. It was evil. Which might explain why he was so eager to assist with the prison renovation. Do you believe that Michelle's death will be solved?

that you will find out who killed her? I have to believe that. Yeah. I really do. To this day, Michelle Lawless's family remains tormented by the mystery of her senseless murder. Whoever took her life needs to pay for what they did. It's not going to bring her back, I know that, but it will help all of us rest a little easier.

I owe that to her family to find out who done it. I owe it to this community to find out because if there's somebody that's got away with murder, they need to pay for their crime. In 2010, Scott County paid $4 million to Josh Kieser to settle a wrongful conviction lawsuit. In 2011, Kieser donated $10,000 to the Scott County Sheriff's Department to fund the continuing investigation of the Lawless murder.

If you like this podcast, you can listen ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a quick survey at wondery.com slash survey. Okay, mom and dads, or soon-to-be mom and dads, think of the very best gift you've ever received. Now imagine something that will bring you a thousand times more joy every day. That's the Nanit Baby Monitor. It's like a family sleep coach, self-care unit, and memory collector all in one.

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That's business.landzen.com slash pod 20. Code pod 20 for 20% off your first product. Did you know that after World War II, the U.S. government quietly brought former Nazi scientists to America in a covert operation to advance military technology? Or that in the 1950s, the U.S. Army conducted a secret experiment by releasing bacteria over San Francisco to test how a biological attack might spread without alerting the public?

These might sound like conspiracy theories, but they're not. They're well-documented government operations that have been hidden away in classified files for decades. I'm Luke LaManna, a Marine Corps recon vet, and I've always had a thing for digging into the unknown. It's what led me to start my new podcast, Redacted Declassified Mysteries. In it, I explore hidden truths and reveal some eye-opening events, like covert experiments and secret operations that those in power tried before.

to keep buried. Follow redacted, declassified mysteries with me, Luke LaManna, on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen ad-free, join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app.