Post Mortem | Where is Jermain Charlo?
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Hello, listeners. I'm your host, Anne-Marie Green, and welcome to another episode of Postmortem. So today we're talking about the troubling case of Jermaine Charlo. She's a missing mother of two who was last seen in Missoula, Montana. She was 23 years old when she disappeared. That's in 2018, now six years ago.

So why haven't there been any suspects named in connection with her disappearance? And why is the public only seeing the last known video of Jermaine now?

There is, of course, a lot to discuss. Luckily, we are joined by CBS News correspondent Michelle Miller and 48 Hours producer Marcy Spencer. Thank you so much, ladies, for joining us. Thank you. Thank you. So a reminder to everyone, if you haven't listened to the 48 Hours episode that we're about to talk about, head on over to your podcast feed and listen to the full audio of the show first. It's just below this episode in your feed. And then come on back for this conversation.

So I think it's really important, before we even talk about the case, to talk about the context. And I know when I started to watch The Hour, I said to myself, thank goodness we are talking about this. Because Jermaine's case is certainly troubling, but she is one of many, many missing Indigenous women. One of thousands. I mean, in the state of Montana alone,

Native Americans account for, what, 6% of the population, but 24% of missing persons cases. So you think about that, and how many of these cases do you actually see on television? And it was about time to give voice and rise to something that many people call an epidemic, certainly in this part of our nation.

Jen Murphy, who is featured in our hour, has taken dozens of pictures of Native American women with the red handprint on their face.

And that red handprint is a very, very important symbol in the missing and murdered Indigenous peoples movement. They feel like they've been silenced. Their voices haven't been heard. No one is listening to them about the crisis of missing and murdered Indigenous people. And that red handprint is something that Jen Murphy puts in every one of her

photographs. And it's saying we will be silenced no more. We want to be heard. It's such an important topic to put a national spotlight on. I'm so happy that 48 Hours tackled this. I will say it took a year of development to get this story to where it is today. And it was very important, I think, for the family of Jermaine Charleau. We had to gain their trust.

And I shout out to my colleague, Steve McCain, who really kept that going because there were ups and there were downs. I mean, this family has been...

hoping and praying and searching for six years. And I think it just, it was timing. Also, we need the trust of law enforcement. And that was really important with this case. So it's a long time coming, but I'm glad we were able to tell it. Why was it difficult to gain their trust? You know, often when the media is covering an unsolved case,

you usually get cooperation from law enforcement or family because they

They want it to be solved. So what was it that made them hesitant? Well, this case is very different because of the fact that it is an open and active investigation. Law enforcement is very careful. They don't want to compromise anything in the investigation. Obviously, you know, for the family, yes, there are certain things that they want to say, but there are certain things that they hold back.

So I think it was a matter of timing. It just worked out. They felt that they could trust us, and I think we were the right people to share their story.

So as you guys have pointed out here and also in the piece, missing and murdered Indigenous peoples are often underreported by the media as compared to the stories that we've seen, many of them of missing white women, to be frank. In the hour, Gabby Petito is brought up as an example. And I thought to myself, you're right. That became a national, international story. And we don't

often don't hear about Indigenous women at all. But the local affiliate, the local CBS affiliate did cover Jermaine's story and the case extensively. And there have been efforts by the community to bring awareness, right? Displaying these billboards. Right.

with her picture on it. What was it like to see the billboard in real life? So the picture on that billboard that looks out over the Flathead Reservation, which was her home, it's a picture of,

That was a screenshot of a video that she had posted on TikTok the day she disappeared. And when you consider that, this partial motion in the picture itself, you feel as though she's reaching out in a way. The actual movement in the picture elicits this reaction from you once you look at it. And it's truly haunting. I think about that often.

How about you, Mark? I think it was interesting because I made a couple of trips to Montana before we actually started filming this story. And I said, oh, we have to drive down the highway because I want to see the billboard. And the first time I saw it, I think it takes your breath away. It is haunting. You see her face. And I think it really brings it home that

We're looking for this woman. She's a member of the Confederated Salish and Kootenai tribes. She is a tribal member. She lived on the reservation. That billboard is placed there specifically. So if you're leaving the reservation, coming towards Missoula, Montana, you

You can't miss it. You're going to see her face. Jermaine was online. She was telling people about her life. Like she is so alive still that yes, the billboard is sort of a moment in time, but we have the ability to see so many mundane moments of her life that you're just very keenly aware of, of,

How much life there was there and where is it now? Absolutely. And I think that's what our hour does because we are able to show the viewer who Tremaine is.

You know, she was funny. She was she was creative. She did have dreams and she was a loving mother. She loved those kids. And I think that that's very important because I do agree with you. The billboard is one thing and it's very haunting. But I think seeing video of her and the selfies and her acting silly and goofy and you get to know Jermaine. Mm hmm.

So even though Jermaine seemed to disappear without a trace, investigators did find surveillance footage from the last time anyone saw her. She was with her ex-boyfriend, Michael DeFrance, who is also a father of her children. She was also talking to some other young men. But as we see in the video, she leaves with Michael.

Now, this video is from six years ago and police had not shared it before with anyone, which was shocking to me. Why did they share it with 48 hours? Why did they hold it for so long? Well, to go back and once again and say this is an open and active investigation.

The video that you see in the hour, these are excerpts that they released to us. The family also did not see this video and watched this video with us for the very first time. They knew that the video existed, but they hadn't seen it. And I think to the defense of law enforcement, they're working on a case. They can't share everything. So by sharing the video excerpts with us,

and us showing them with the nation. They're hoping that it will generate some leads, that perhaps there was someone that was there that night. And maybe somebody, you know, did see something that night. And they go, oh my goodness, you know, I did see something. It will prompt them to call law enforcement. I think the other thing that they are thinking about is, well, somebody might know something, but has been keeping track.

A secret. And that maybe by seeing our show, seeing the video again, seeing the whole story, seeing her family, that perhaps someone who may be holding something will be compelled to come forward and say something. What was it like to play the video excerpts for Jermaine's aunts, Dani and Valenda? It was interesting because Marcy and I had two different vantage points.

I was with them as they viewed the film on one side of the camera. And she was looking at us. In three different monitors. Through the lens, of course. And as I was watching it with them, it was discovery. It was them holding on by the seat and saying,

I think it took a minute or two for them to process it. What did it look like to you, Marcy? Well, for me, I'm looking at these two women, you know, Tremaine's aunts, seeing Tremaine alive. They hadn't seen her in six years. And so this is the first glimpse that they're seeing of their niece. And they were holding on to, you know, whatever emotion that they had, but their body language to me was speaking volumes. Well,

Well, the most interesting sort of bit of reaction that you guys showed in the hour, I thought, was when she's further down the street and they say, look at her. She's walking ahead of him. She's trying to get away. And I thought to myself, what?

would you not show the family this video earlier? Because they understand her body movements. They know when something's off. That's the kind of insight that only someone who knows Jermaine really well would be able to share with investigators. They signaled that from the start. I mean, they knew the minute they couldn't reach her by phone

that something was wrong and something was up. It would be very unusual for her not to be on her phone or not to have her phone with her. And so, so much of this is a family that in their gut or heart of hearts, they feel they know what happened. But no one has been called as a suspect or a person of interest. And so...

At this stage, they're really hoping that this 48 hours episode on Jermaine Charlo is the trigger to reignite a lead. Marcy, when you talked about building trust with the family, is that part of what you had to convince them of that, you know, that 48 hours is here to help them get the answers?

Absolutely. I mean, we wanted to give them a voice. I think there were a lot of things that they wanted to say, and I think they haven't been able to say. They shared a lot with us. They shared a lot with Michelle. I think they connected really well with Michelle. And I think they felt comfortable with us. And we gave them a voice. And this is a community really in grieving. Yeah.

people knew this woman. She had hopes and dreams that many people knew about. She's part of a prominent and storied legacy family in this part of Montana. And I think that it's really important to say she is missed and she is loved. And sometimes when people know that, it strikes a chord with them to act.

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Welcome back. There are certain people that really stand out in this episode. One of them is Detective Guy Baker. He seemed so dedicated when it came to finding Jermaine. He put his work cell phone number on Jermaine's billboard and

Why do you think he was so invested in Jermaine's story? We tip our hat to Detective Baker for a couple of reasons. One, he was not the initial investigator on this case. He asked to be put on this case. It was almost like kismet when you think of it, because at the same time that the family was

as they recounted to us, was complaining about the fact that they weren't getting the kind of investigatory response that they felt they deserved. Here he is coming off vacation, seeing this case and volunteering and has been here through every step of the way. I think that he is very, very, very dedicated. I think that he

eats and sleeps this case. He wants to find Jermaine. He's not going to retire until he finds Jermaine. And I also think that, you know, just to mention, I think we should say that statistically, most missing people are found. And Detective Baker talks about the difficult 2% that aren't.

Yeah. Jermaine has become one of those difficult 2%. She's in that category. Yeah. So speaking of difficult, this is still an open investigation. As you guys have pointed out, that means there are a number of reports that remain sealed. How tough is it then to put together a whole hour?

We can report what we can report. We have those court transcripts that we were able to get information from. But Detective Guy Baker, the detective that he is, most of his stuff is sealed. He does not want to compromise anything with this investigation. But he did share with us. And he was very, very careful. It was all strategic, I believe.

Well, as Michelle has pointed out, law enforcement have not named anyone as a person of interest or a suspect in connection with Jermaine's disappearance. Why don't police, though, believe they have enough evidence to charge anyone? That's a good question. I don't know that we know for sure why they feel they don't have enough. But I know that we know from Brittany Williams, the county attorney, that they want to make sure that they have evidence.

every, all the information. They have one bite at the apple. They do not want to make any mistakes with this. So they want to make sure that they have crossed all their T's, dotted all their I's, that they have everything before they move forward if this case, you know, results in an arrest. We asked that question and that is a direct quote. We have one bite of the apple. Mm-hmm.

You went to the Flathead Reservation in Montana. We see the footage in the hour, vast and beautiful and wide open. How difficult would it be to find a body in this area? Well, think about it. We're talking hundreds and hundreds of square miles. There are hills, there are valleys, there are wide open spaces, there are rivers that swell everywhere.

I mean, there's so many questions and circumstances and roads that you can go down. And what happened to her? She was lost. If she got out of a car and just started walking. I mean, there's just no one knows. Yeah.

And again, we just hope that perhaps someone saw something and they step forward. The Flathead Reservation is a little over 1 million acres. I mean, it's huge. It's huge. And, you know, doing grid searches for germane was incredibly difficult. You have to search everywhere.

fingertip to fingertip with an arm span across because you could miss something. And so imagine even if you have a hundred people walking along a grid search, what that means. There's only so much ground you can cover. Jeez. But they've searched and searched and searched and searched and searched for her. And, you know, haven't found anything.

You all spent an awful lot of time with Jermaine's family. It's been six years. How are they coping? Wow. I guess I would say they have good days and bad days. Yeah. Holidays are tough. Birthdays are very difficult. You know, Jermaine was 23 when she disappeared. And her Aunt Valinda described to me, it's the weight of

on your heart, the physical feeling of something sitting on you, and you can't catch your breath. You can't quite get a full breath in. That's what it feels like for them. Part of the last act of this story is about a dream that Valinda had where she believes Jermaine now is. In fact, we have sound from that.

And I had this dream and Jermaine was there and she's like, I just wanted to tell you I found grandma and grandpa and I'm fine. And she gave me a hug and she turned to walk. And I said, Jermaine, and she goes, what? I was like, where's your body? And she looked me dead in the eyes. She said, it's an Evero. She's like, I love you, but I have to go. That still gets me. Feels. Chills. Every time I hear it. And we went through so many things.

eerie moments as we shot this piece. Just strange things while we were interviewing her aunties. The lights kept flickering on and off. There were moments walking by the river on the Flathead Reservation that you just, I felt a brush, a sensation again in the conference room here.

Last Monday, as we sat down to view this episode, the lights went off eerily in the room. A couple of months ago, actually, we were talking to Jen Murphy, who was the educator and activist who has photographed many of the women with the red handprint. And we were talking on the phone and we finished the conversation. We were talking to Jen and I went out to take a walk and there was this huge rainbow of

In the sky. And I thought, oh, wow. I wonder if that's Jermaine. These things really happen. And we have the receipts, as they say. There were some spiritual moments. We all experienced them. And so when Valinda described this dream where she felt as though she knows that her darling...

niece is no longer with us, you sense that she truly did have this experience. Well, hopefully this hour makes a difference. You had given me something to think about. Michelle and Marcy, thank you so much. Thank you for having us. Thank you.

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