Deadly Obsession
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To start listening, download the Amazon Music app for free or go to amazon.com slash adfreetruecrime. That's amazon.com slash adfreetruecrime to catch up on the latest episodes without the ads. Case closed. The most important thing about Michelle was she was extremely loyal. She was giving, she was caring, she was dedicated. She was an amazing woman. I'm Debbie Knight. I'm one of Michelle Jones' very best friends.

Michelle was fun, so smart and organized. My name's Lisa Emmons. We were best friends for 26 years. Call Michelle once and she doesn't return your phone call in half an hour. It's a big deal. I didn't have an email from her or a lot of voicemails from her, so I started calling her a lot. Call me back, you know, call me back. This is so unheard of. I'm starting to think you're dead.

When I pulled in the driveway, I noticed that the garage lights were on. The mail was coming out of the mailbox. Her newspaper was on the ground for two days. Charlie's car was in the front. Charlie and Terry would come up to Orlando and spend time with Michelle. Michelle, being the niece, opened her home up to them and allowed them to come and stay. My name is Rob Hemmert. I'm with the Seminole County Sheriff's Office.

As I'm driving there to the scene, there's a million things going through my mind and it's quite rapid. There were three young police officers and they went in and they weren't in the house 40 seconds. And to watch all three of them hurrying out the front door, throwing up. I've worked hundreds of death investigations. I'd never seen anything like this before and I probably won't again.

The first thing that I saw when I entered this room was Michelle Jones's body laying on the bed. Her head had been removed. She was dismembered and it was absolutely horrible. Charlie was absolutely obsessed with Michelle. He referred to Michelle as Victoria's Secret. We knew looking at that scene that there had to be more. Charlie's oldest sister, Angela, came to us and that's when everything changed. Deadly obsession.

Michelle, this is the first time we've been here without a bottle of champagne for you. Miss you. Love you. It's been more than a year since the shocking murder of their best friend, Michelle Jones. But Debbie Knight and Lisa Emmons still feel the loss. She wanted so much more out of life, but she was robbed.

Michelle was 37, single, a successful executive at the Golf Channel in Orlando, and the glue that had held these three friends together since they were teenagers. She's just not replaceable.

The events that would tear them apart began Tuesday, September 2nd, 2004. A violent storm, Hurricane Ivan, gathered in the Atlantic, prompting an evacuation of the Florida Keys. Michelle kept an extra close watch on it because her aunt and uncle lived there. She said, "Of course, come, come, you know, come stay with me."

To Michelle's delight, the aunt and uncle, Terry and Charlie Brandt, did come for the weekend.

She was close to both, but especially to her mother's sister, Terry. 20 minutes after they got there, I got the phone call from Michelle. "Terry and Charlie are here. Where are you? Why aren't you over here?" They were hanging out. She had a jacuzzi and a pool. She had a lovely home. This is one of Michelle and Terry. In North Carolina, meanwhile, Michelle's mother, Mary Lou, wondered how the weekend was going. We were very close. We talked almost every day. So Mary Lou was puzzled when Michelle didn't pick up the phone.

We placed a call to Michelle Monday night and Tuesday night. We got her voicemail. Wednesday night, still no answer. And I was getting really worried. My heart was in my throat. She called Debbie Knight, asking her to go check on Michelle. And she stayed on the line as Debbie walked up the drive.

I truly thought something was wrong. So that's when I went to the door and was shaken. I couldn't open the door. And she said the key wouldn't open the door. And I think that was divine intervention, frankly. Debbie went to the back. Mary Lou was still on the phone. There was a garage door with almost all glass, so you could see in. I was in shock. I heard her scream. He was...

That's when they saw Charlie hanging in the garage. Even Rob Hemmert, the lead investigator, had to steel himself for the gruesome scene in that sweltering garage. I could see Charlie Brandt hanging from the rafters in the garage. He was hanging from a bed sheet which was around his neck. There was a ladder close by to his body. Charlie Brandt apparently had committed suicide.

Little could hammered imagine what else awaited him inside Michelle's meticulous house. It was just a nice home. It had that feminine kind of feel to it. All of those nice decorations and the aroma of her home were masked by death, the smell of death. Terry Brandt sat slumped on the living room couch.

She'd been stabbed repeatedly. She had seven stab wounds to the chest. Michelle Jones' mutilated body was in her room. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Decapitated, her heart removed.

All three of them were locked inside the house? Correct. There was no indication of any type of struggle or fight. Leading Hemmert to one inescapable conclusion. So from the very beginning, you assumed that Charlie Brandt had done this? We were confident early on that no one else was responsible.

As he pieced events together, the evening seemed to have started innocently enough. I know they had dinner together. Charlie cooked some type of fish. Looks like they may have had some drinks, some wine and so forth.

But after dinner, Michelle spoke with Lisa and told her not to come over. She said Terry and Charlie had been arguing and they weren't the best of company. They had a little too much to drink and she was tired and she wanted to go to sleep. And Hammert learned that although the Brants had planned to leave that day, their bags sat in the front hall, Charlie insisted on staying the extra night.

There was no reason for them to stay behind. The hurricane had passed, so he chose to stay for a reason. And I think that was because he knew what he was going to do.

Charlie Brandt used Michelle's own kitchen knives to kill both her and his wife. Terry was killed in a quick, repeated stabbing type attack to her chest, and in comparison, Michelle had one stab wound to the chest. He carefully put her blood-soaked clothes in the bathroom sink. He spent the remainder of his time dismembering her body after death. It all took time, and it took thought. I told her, Dad, that's the worst thing you'll ever... This is my best friend's...

father and I just, I was screaming, "Michelle's dead. She's dead." It was just incomprehensible that he could have killed them. Mary Lou just couldn't accept that this monstrous crime was the work of the mild-mannered brother-in-law she had known for 17 years. When they described what occurred to Michelle, it was even

beyond description. He was one of those people that just sat back and watched. But I never thought anything crazy of it. It was just as incomprehensible to Michelle's horrified friends, who considered Charlie a bit of an oddball, but certainly no threat. Michelle and I used to call him eccentric.

But well suited to Terry's carefree personality. There comes Queen Terry! Terry was gypsy-like. Just happy-go-lucky, nothing bothered her. She was a wonderful person, very kind, very sweet. She was the best friend you could ever have. And Terry's closest friend, Melanie Fetcher, said Terry and Charlie were inseparable. If my husband could love me one-third of the amount that Charlie loved Terry, I'd be the luckiest woman in the whole world. You detected no problems in this marriage?

Everyone agreed it had seemed a perfect match. They often did things for each other that would make each other feel good. And one of those things was that they would make their lunches for each other.

because the lunch tasted better when it was made by the one who loved you. And how many times did he stab her? Seven times. But why? We had to figure out what Charlie was all about. He left no note and no explanation. Why? Why now? Why his wife and niece? The first hints came a few days later from an unexpected source. I had no idea what she had to really offer.

Charlie Brandt's older sister, Angela. She was emotional. She was upset, visibly shaken. She was supposed to join the other relatives for a briefing by police, but she didn't show. She was in a car in the parking lot. She basically came to us and said, there's something I need to tell you people.

I heard my father yell, Charlie, stop. An explosive family secret. My mom was just screaming. A secret that Angela knew held a key to the mystery. Who really was Charlie Brandt? He said, what have I done? What have I done? What have I done?

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but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash truecrime. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash truecrime, spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash truecrime. Rules and restrictions may apply. I haven't told this story. I can't remember when. This is Investigator Rob Hemmert. The person being interviewed is Angela, and her last name is Brant.

With that, Angela Brandt haltingly told her story on tape to a stunned Rob Hammert. Told him exactly what had happened one hellish night long ago. It was January 3rd, 1971.

The secret her distraught family had kept hidden for more than three decades. And Charlie was 13? Yes. And Angela, you were how old? 15. They lived with their parents and two younger sisters in this ordinary-looking house in Fort Wayne, Indiana. It was just after 9:00 at night, and Angela was reading in her room. My mom ran a bath, and my dad was shaving. And I heard my father yell, "Charlie, don't!" Charlie walked into a bathroom,

While her father was shaving, shot him in the back. He went down, he stood over her mother. She was in a bathtub bathing and fired several rounds into her body and killed her. She was eight months pregnant. But Angela had no time. She told Hemmert that after shooting their mother, Charlie had turned the gun on her. The gun wouldn't fire.

The next thing she knew, they were physically fighting. I had blood and bruises, and I fought back. She said she tried desperately to calm her brother down by telling him how much she loved him. I saw the madness, the glazed-over look. I thought, "Disappear." And barely controlling her emotion, she told how she'd made her escape. He goes, "You're not gonna leave me, are you?"

She ran to her neighbors and pounded on the front door, startling then 16-year-old Sandy Radcliffe. Bam, bam, bam, bam, ding, ding, ding, ding.

But by the time Sandy got to the door, Angela already had headed to another house. It was Charlie waiting outside. There was just a knock-knock. And I opened up the door and he goes, "Sandy, I just shot my mom and dad." Newspaper reports of the murder were sketchy. A freakish crime by a quiet kid. He had the blackest eyes, Susan, I've ever seen.

The last kid on earth, friends said, who would shoot anyone, much less kill his mother. That's why this whole incident was such a shock because they were very close, incredibly so. He was a mama's boy. Only a few crime scene photos survive today in the Fort Wayne Police Archives. Dan Fiegel, then a young detective, was in charge of the investigation.

When the call came, he remembers hurrying to the hospital, hoping that Charlie's critically wounded father would survive and be able to explain what had happened. He just kept saying, "I don't know why my son did this. I have no idea as to why my son did this." But Herbert confirmed that Charlie had done it, and Fiegel proceeded to take the boy into custody. He was in shock. His eyes were dilated, and he couldn't understand why he had done this.

The police didn't know what to make of their 13-year-old killer. The Indiana courts ordered that he undergo three separate psychological evaluations.

One was with psychiatrist Ronald Pansner, who agreed with his two colleagues that Charlie was something of a mystery. Your report almost seemed to be emphasizing what he wasn't. You know, he wasn't hallucinating, he wasn't having delusions, he was mature for his age, as opposed to concentrating on what was wrong with this kid.

Why was that? Well, basically I was looking for mental illness and he wasn't showing the signs and symptoms of serious mental illness, which I thought was what the court wanted to know. Pantzner talked with Charlie about his friends, his family, his interests, trying to uncover some underlying problem. This kid did well in school. He didn't get into any trouble. He loved his family, he said, and the family said that he was a loving kid.

You know, so there wasn't anything to diagnose. There was something wrong with him. To the layperson, this doesn't make sense. The guy killed his mother. She's pregnant. Shot his father. Why doesn't he have a mental illness? But he doesn't have a diagnosable mental illness. Nothing at least that the doctors could fit into any neat psychiatric category. So to the big question then, why did Grant kill? We don't know.

Whatever Charlie Brandt's demons were, he was only 13 years old. And in Indiana, he was still too young to be held criminally responsible for his crimes. And so, he was never charged with murder and he was never brought to trial. Instead, a grand jury investigated and recommended psychiatric treatment because, as it wrote in its report, such antisocial conduct could repeat itself in the future.

Charlie was sent to this psychiatric hospital. He stayed just over a year, only until his forgiving father could win his release. Herbert Brandt then pulled up stakes and moved the entire family, including Charlie, to Florida. He never spoke to Charlie about what took place. Never said, "Hey Charlie, why'd you shoot me? Why'd you kill your mother?" You know, "What were you thinking?"

How about an apology? None of those things. He just accepted them back into the home as if nothing happened. Even Charlie Brandt's two baby sisters, too young to remember, never were told the truth about their mother's death, all of which infuriates Michelle Jones' parents, Bill and Mary Lou. There's something wrong here. There's something wrong with the system that allows a 13-year-old boy to kill his mother

to try to kill his father and an older sister, and nothing was done? And both are sure that years later, Charlie never told his wife, Terri. Do you think there's any possibility that Terri knew anything at all about his past? No. She just couldn't keep a secret. You're just as sure? And I don't think she would have ever married him, period, at all, had she known.

And the Joneses say to this day, Herbert and Angela Brandt never have acknowledged that telling her might have saved lives. You've never spoken to the father? He has never, ever made any... Ever? Never made a single effort to say how sorry he was that this happened to us. And for Michelle's best friend, Debbie Knight, the anger goes even deeper. Charlie's father should be exposed. He knew...

what his son did, I'd love to see him sitting right next to me, because I find him guilty. Herbert, now 75, lives today in Florida, as does Angela, now 51. They have declined requests for interviews. But talking with them didn't much help Rob Hemmert understand the twisted psyche of Charlie Brandt. He would find those clues in the Florida Keys, right where Charlie left them.

Four hundred miles from the brutal murders in Orlando, Charlie and Terry Brandt's house on Big Pine Key sat frozen in time. Their home was boarded up meticulously. Before they'd evacuated for the hurricane, Charlie had painstakingly sealed up his life, left now for police to explore. I've never seen anything like it. Charlie took it to the extreme.

Every piece of wooden panel that was cut for each window looked like it had been custom fit. The holes for the doorknobs on the French doors were meticulously cut, perfectly round circles. As one might expect from an engineer, Charlie Brandt worked as a radar technician. Inside his house, things were just as precise. The first shock came when investigator Rob Hemmert stepped into the Brandt's bedroom.

There's this huge poster on the back of the bedroom door that I couldn't believe I had found.

A graphic poster of the female anatomy in plain view. Her hair is put up in a bun, which I had never seen before. And it's showing the skeletal system and the muscular system. This is something that Terri would have seen every day. Absolutely. What do you make of that? It just makes me wonder why, you know, did she not think it was a big deal? Charlie and Terri were not in the medical profession. We saw no reason for that chart to be there. What is this doing in someone's home?

Hemmert had an unsettling answer to his own question. I'm looking at a chart that's got these portions of the body exposed, and he's virtually duplicated or exposed some of those areas of the body in what he did with Michelle. And there were other eerie reminders. Medical books and journals and anatomy book. And in that book, there was a newspaper clipping that showed a human heart. Knowing what he did to Michelle and then finding those things, it all started to make sense.

As soon would the Victoria's Secret catalogs found in the house addressed to Charlie Brandt. He always referred to Michelle as Victoria's Secret. He gave her that name and he never referred to her as Michelle.

Far from being just a friendly uncle, to the horror of the Jones family, Charlie Brandt had been secretly infatuated with his niece. The idea that Charlie would use this phrase in reference to your daughter. I know it just was appalling. How would Michelle have responded? How would she have reacted if she had known that? She'd have been livid. That would have been the height of betrayal. You know, you don't warn your kids about their uncle.

I think he was obsessed with her. He was fascinated by her. And I think ultimately he intended on killing her. And I think that's evident in the way he spoke about her and the things that he looked at on the internet. When investigators examined Brandt's computer, they found he'd been on ghastly websites featuring death fantasies, necrophilia, and violence against women.

You can't look at this and obviously not think about what he did. This is sort of like a training manual. You see where he may have got some of his ideas and thoughts and fantasies from. The thing that we noted immediately was that the things that he did with our body did not appear to be someone who had done this for the first time. There had to be more.

Hambert was sure that if he looked hard enough, he would find evidence that in fact Charlie Brandt was a serial killer. His only real question: how many other victims were there? To answer that, police first tried to match their unsolved murders with Brandt's travels in the U.S. and even abroad. Every means possible that we knew of

to reach out to the law enforcement community and say, "This is what we had. If you've got anything similar, contact us." Potential cases poured in. Investigators weeded through them by focusing on those with specific similarities to Charlie's murder of his niece, Michelle. What are the odds that those are the only murders that he ever committed? Oh, very slim.

Criminal profiler Leslie D'Ambrosia has been asked to analyze dozens of these cold cases. There's no boilerplate profile for a "serial killer." It doesn't exist. It's all individual. It's based on a person's life experiences, and everybody's got a different life experience.

Charlie Brandt's trademark was precision and a methodical technique. How a person normally behaves is translated into how they carry their crimes out. He's quite organized and planned in what he does. He's intelligent, very reliable, very responsible. And to the outside world, just an ordinary guy. Terry Brandt's own diaries found in the house reflect that very ordinary life.

They weren't detailed writings. They were just something very simple, from "went fishing, caught a good bull dolphin," to "nice dinner with Charlie." With few hints of anything wrong. We only found a couple of interesting notations, and those were "weird day," but there's nothing any more specific, and we have no idea what occurred that would have caused her to write that.

Terry also noted times when Charlie was out late, even out all night, again with no explanation. Terry tended to be more of the life of the party, and he was just kind of like this strong, quiet guy. Musician Jim Graves palled around with Charlie in the 80s when he was married to Brandt's sister, Angela. He will never forget the day that she confided in him that decades before...

Charlie had killed their pregnant mother. I came home one day and she was crying rather uncontrollably and said she had something that she absolutely had to talk to me about. But Jim says that after getting to know him, it seemed clear that whatever had happened years before, Charlie was okay now. He was so gentle that when there was a bug in the house, he would refuse to step on it and carry it outside.

Today, Graves regrets that he didn't pay more attention, especially to one time after he and Angela split up and the two men got to talking. We were having a few beers after fishing all day and everything, and I was just really despondent. Somehow we started talking about revenge. You know, you get your feelings hurt, you just want to lash out.

I believe he looked at me and said, "Well, if you really want to get revenge, you should kill somebody and cut their heart out." Kill somebody and cut their heart out? Yes. And it creeped me out at the time. I was going to say. Oh, sure, because I was like, "Whoa, okay, let's change the subject."

But Graves dismissed it. At the time, I didn't have any reason to believe that that was anything other than, like, guy talk and aren't women terrible? And years later, when a new girlfriend wanted to fix up her friend Terry, Jim called Charlie Brandt. No way in the world would I know they would fall in love and get married. Charlie and Terry were married on August 29, 1986. Their best man?

Jim Graves. I did have a conversation with Chuck and I insisted that he inform him of his past. Did he tell Terry what had happened? Yes, absolutely. After they got married and I went down to visit them, I asked them when they were going to have kids.

And she told me, considering everything, that she didn't think it was a good idea. Considering everything? Yeah, considering the past. That's what you took that to mean? Sure. I mean, it was always left unsaid. You know, there was no point in going, considering, you know, Charlie murdered his pregnant mother. I mean, it was just more referred to as it. It. Mm-hmm.

And according to Graves, it was something that Terry Brandt would have cause to think about again.

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Here's the thing about Charlie Brandt that's disturbing, beyond what we already know is disturbing and how he commits his crimes. He's very well traveled. For many years, he's traveled all over the United States and even outside the United States.

33 years elapsed from the time he shot his mother until he killed his wife and niece. And what investigators desperately want to know is, how many other crimes did Charlie Brandt commit? Will we ever know how many murders he's responsible for? No, we won't.

There's several cases that came out of the Seminole County case that could possibly be related to the same offender. But Florida criminal profiler Leslie D'Ambrosia is working with Rob Hemmert and a task force from around the state to at least try to narrow it down. I appreciate everybody being here today and taking the time out to meet like this and compare these cases. In the search for unsolved murders that fit Brant's peculiar profile...

One case immediately jumped out. It was in Miami, 1995.

and it was Detective Pat Diaz's case. What did investigators at the time make of this? Very unusual homicide. Unusual indeed, but looking a lot like Charlie Brandt. Her head had been removed and her heart had been removed? That's correct. Somebody that actually knew what they were doing, it appeared, had done this homicide. The victim was Darlene Toller, a prostitute in Little Havana. Her body was found along this highway.

Apart from the manner of her death, two bits of evidence convinced Diaz that Brandt is his man. The body was wrapped up in a blanket, then wrapped up in plastic and tied almost like a package. In that blanket, dog hairs. Police also found dog hairs in the back of Charlie Brandt's truck.

And Brandt's truck yielded another clue. Every time he put gas in the truck, he kept a mileage. In those mileage records, Diaz says, a spike occurred right around the time Toller was killed, 100 miles away from Brandt's home. You think he drove from Key West to Miami just looking for somebody? He'd come to Miami. Him and his wife worked opposite shifts and did what he had to do.

DNA analysis of animal hair is difficult and costly, but police say that if and when they get it, a match would close the Toller case. That'll give me the 100%. It wouldn't be 99%, it'd be 100%.

But a second murder, much closer to home, fits the pattern even more convincingly. It dates back 17 years to a summer night in July 1989, and it happened just four blocks from Charlie Brandt's house.

Here, under this bridge off of Big Pine Key, local fishermen made a frightening discovery. They cast their lines out and when they started reeling it in, they felt something on the line. Monroe County Homicide Detective Trish Dalley. When they brought it closer, they saw that there was what they thought a mannequin on the line and they shined it and it was actually a body. And she was found right over there at that second piling? Yes.

Dally is lead investigator in the murder of 38-year-old Sherry Parisho, a local woman who lived on her small rowboat. She had her bicycle that she would put on the bow of the boat, and then she would take the boat out approximately 100 yards off ashore, and that's where she lived. And investigators believe...

It was also where she died. What we believe happened is that she was placed on the bottom of the boat, possibly with her feet off the stern and... Lying on her back? Correct. For years, the boat has been locked away in the evidence yard. And you can see what appears to be some type of cutting into the wood. So he kind of used this as a table then? Yes. As with the other victims, Sherry Parisho was decapitated, her heart cut out.

For years, all police had to go on was this sketch of a man spotted running across the highway near the scene. That is, until Charlie Brandt's former brother-in-law, Jim Graves, revealed something he says Terry Brandt told him just after the Parisho murder. She goes, well, you know, somebody was killed not too far from our house. I'm thinking about calling the sheriff. And I said, well...

Why? And she goes, "Well, because of Charlie's past." Stunned, Graves says he later confronted Charlie. I look at him and I said, "You know, your wife thinks you might have committed this heinous act. This girl was murdered around from your house." And he was like, "I didn't do it. You know, I didn't do it." You didn't think, "My God, you know, could he have done this?" I, you know, I couldn't tell you what I was thinking at the time.

But recently, when investigators looking again at the Parisho murder talked with Graves, under oath, he was much more specific about Terry's story. Terry was suspicious because she apparently had found Charlie downstairs and he had blood on him. And she asked him what had happened and he gave an explanation or an excuse that he was filleting fish. Although it was a work day, it was in the evening, she just went ahead and believed him.

Graves' bombshell statement was enough to close the Parisho case officially. Still, questions persist. Why is there nothing about the incident in Terry Brandt's diaries? Did she really believe her husband's explanation? And if not, why did she stay with him? Detective Dally has her own theory. You're talking about somebody that you're in a relationship with. You don't want to believe somebody that you...

you know, have committed your life with would commit a crime, especially that heinous. In the end, Charlie Brandt fooled everyone. And that's the sad part about this. These people were completely misled. They knew Charlie Brandt to be this guy that they could rely on, that was a friend and was there when they needed him. And we know Charlie. They knew the work Charlie, the go out on the boat fishing Charlie. They didn't know the true Charlie. We do.

Okay, it's time to commit.

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We have to face every day without our daughter. And that is horrible.

I would like her to be remembered for the person that she was. In the many months since the murders of Michelle Jones and Terry Brandt... We lost two people we love very dearly. ...family and friends have struggled to accept their deaths. It's hideous. In part because of the way they died, say Michelle's parents, Mary Lou and Bill Jones. Michelle was totally destroyed.

The die the death that she did was just so difficult and still is so difficult. This is Michelle's high school picture. And time only has increased the Joneses' fury toward Herbert and Angela Brandt for protecting Charlie. This man may have been able to have been stopped. He may have never been cured, but he could have been stopped. You hold them responsible for this? Well, I do because they should have gotten the man help. And they knew he needed help.

And in fact, Mary Lou says, Angela told her right after the murders that she had been terrified of Charlie for years. Angela said that she was glad that Charlie had committed suicide because now she could sleep at night. For 20-some years, she would not allow the air conditioner to run, the windows to be open and unlocked in her home because she was afraid. She was afraid Charlie would come back to kill her.

The Joneses still find it hard to believe that Terry Brant knew anything about Charlie's past, despite what Jim Graves says. It's just very hard for me to conceptualize my sister could know something about a person that could do what Charlie did. If she knew that, could she have stayed with him? I don't know. I don't think so. In my heart, I don't believe so.

Records from Charlie's brief stay in the psychiatric hospital might shed more light on his past, but the Brandt family refuses to allow the state to release them. They had a family secret. Not to the Joneses. The tragedy is they're going to try and preserve the family secret. Nor to the police. I'd love to see the medical records and find out what type of treatment he had, if any.

and how they handled him. Which leaves investigator Rob Hemmert with a host of unresolved questions as well. What triggered him back in '71 to kill his mother? What actually was the breaking point for him? I don't know. Say you're sitting opposite, not me, but you're sitting opposite Charlie Brandt, right? What do you want to ask him? Why? What was going through your mind at that specific point in time that caused you to do what you did? And why was it so different in how you took the life of Michelle Jones versus your wife, Terry?

Mary Lou Jones has her own theory of why Charlie Brandt did what he did. I believe he had a covert, evil nature, and I believe he was able to control it and cover it. He was an invisible criminal.

walking around. An invisible criminal whose total number of victims is unlikely ever to be known, despite law enforcement's best efforts. A lot of those cases are cold cases. They require an enormous amount of time and legwork, and the resources are limited everywhere. But we're not going to give up.

Nor will the Joneses, who want new laws to ensure that the outrage of Charlie Brandt never be repeated. The system failed us. The public needs to know that there are people like Charlie that could be anywhere.

They're pushing for a public database, much like that for sex offenders, to include anyone of any age who ever has killed another person, regardless of the circumstances. If we can do something to help somebody else, to prevent them from facing what we did, then Michelle's life will have more meaning. Terry's life will have more meaning. There should not be Charlies on the street.

Charlie Brandt is gone, but for Rob Hemmert, this case is in many ways not closed. I still think about it every day, what happened here and Michelle and Terry and how evil Charlie was. I have nightmares about it every night. When someone as close as Michelle is to us is taken like they are, it alters the course of your life. I miss you. I still miss you.

If you like this podcast, you can listen ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a quick survey at wondery.com slash survey. In the Pacific Ocean, halfway between Peru and New Zealand, lies a tiny volcanic island. It's a little-known British territory called Pitcairn, and it harbored a deep,

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Listen to the Pitcairn Trials exclusively on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Hot shot Australian attorney Nicola Gaba was born into legal royalty. Her specialty? Representing some of the city's most infamous gangland criminals.

However, while Nicola held the underworld's darkest secrets, the most dangerous secret was her own. She's going to all the major groups within Melbourne's underworld, and she's informing on them all. I'm Marsha Clark, host of the new podcast, Informants Lawyer X. In my long career in criminal justice as a prosecutor and defence attorney, I've seen some crazy cases, and this one belongs right at the top of the list. She was addicted to the game she had created.

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