The Silence is Deafening | Chapter 9
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Were you at wild bills that night regardless of whether you were getting into this car with Justin? We're you there? no. How do you ever met us in gains?

No.

I was seventeen at that time um so I was you know not able to get into a club like that for one, for two. I didn't get my drivers sliced. I was eighteen so I definitely was at they are driving and my hair was a blown at that time and nor did I have these tattoos at that time.

Do you remember when what year you got those tattoos?

I would say I was about .

in a half the woman in the black dress.

I was told by bob no months ago that he was fairly confident a woman in question was either, but hasn't been able to confirm beyond all debt, which is the reason the woman is still a bit of a mystery. I was told her identifying Marks were two sunflower tattoos, one on either shoulder.

But when looking at the steel image taken from wild bill security footage, while you can clearly make out what appears to be a tattoo on the right shoulder of the woman, you cannot, with any certainty say it's a sunflower. The footage is just too poor quality. You also have no way of knowing that there's a matching tattoo on our left shoulder, which you can see on camera because of the angle. Not only is the still image very blurry and grainy, but the tattoo appears to be slightly lower on the woman's ARM and looks more square in shape than higher tattoos. The bob did have two informs, I, D, the woman as heather, i'm not convinced, nor is my rising and even bob poll no is come to question if it's either recently have you reached out to me?

From wavelan, i'm shan kite, and this is drowning creek.

Our main thing is I just want to clear mining from anything. I'm not involved, don't know anything. I have leverage. So if I did, I would have definitely said something. I even provided photos of my tatoes, and all I was eliminated as anyone of any.

Hether was interviewed by police several times over the years, and recently by mike rising due to her affiliations. Ation with yon SHE expressed her wish that this case would be solved and that erik Wilson would have closer finally, and also expressed a level of regret t about the circles SHE used to run in when he was Younger. And although he told me he was only seventeen in two thousand and couldn't get into the club, I learned from the case file that someone close to her said he had a fake idea at the time, so who knows? But in our conversation either mentioned having leverage.

So leon and I have been with going through a custody battle for the last couple of years, and I and I did tell me, I said, work, if I had any information at all to give you on this matter, I would gladly help you because that would be an opportunity for me to get my children back um ultimately and I would definitely would share any information that I had um you know for that matter um but unfortunately I I I just I don't know anything of good information。

You know I don't it's all here. It's all this or that. Nothing solid. And you know I have a sun as well. So this this hit home for me.

You know, if my son without missing, I would definitely want someone to come forward. I won't care who called me a sch or whatever. Those are my children.

Most people would do anything for their kids. But if either didn't have any information of value about leon regarding this case, as he said, there was one question SHE could hopefully answer for me. It's regarding the polygraph that leon failed, which I have confirmed through investigators.

This might give a little insight into his state of mind after taking the test when he came home, when you spoke to him after that, I mean, what did he say? Anything that he did? You guys discuss that .

he came home and he told me that he failed in. You know, he was extremely upset and he was crying for like two or three days. I mean, think he was scared.

Think he was scared of what was going to happen to him because he failed IT. Not because I am telling the truth that they said I failed IT wasn't like .

that IT was more like.

oh, shit again polygraphs aren't the end. All real people can tell the truth and fail or lion on pass. We know that.

And there are several factors that come into play, but typically, the average person isn't going to be capable of purposefully manipulating the results. I've tried to make contact with leon to hear his side of this with no success. I have heard through the great fine, though, that he said he does not want to speak with me or my rising.

Imagine that. So for now, I just have to revert back to the information in the case file, statements provided in official witness interviews, even if they've since been recanted. You ve had me talk so much about the alleged confessions of dealing glass and his mother, Tammy, although neither was a confession of murder on the part of dulin, both did play delay in the same location as just in gains when he was allegedly killed.

I've layed what has been told to me from bob or no former and current members of law enforcement, and i've read from transcripts in the case file. I've been able to secure the audio from these interviews. And now for the first time, you're going to hear from the actual type interviews of these people.

And you can judge for yourself, i'm gonna focus on their mention of leon as he's the one I feel we know least about in this story, though he's been accused of choking out just in that night. Some have discounted the credibility of Tammy and dulin statements, but true or not, it's certainly worth looking into why they both named leon as a guilty party. Tammy describes being in andy pick's house that night in hearing a commotion downstairs .

in the garage when I finally paint downs PS and then and was going to see what what's going on with all the Price OK yelling me now, you know, I was the staff there and soccer I will get doing them um desired to deep running um I look out opinion is is cramped up okay um the truck are very much one I couldn't see no other be ho I comments fll downstairs because to come my back and they got larger and I will tell them to the age because the play I could be deep through OK.

And so when I come out and to this one is one the garage doors up with the store here. We don't right here. If you get the parking right here, I think that all here in the grunge look mean.

Everything's kami .

says when .

he entered the garage, IT was chaotic SHE saw three .

people remember much .

is the man .

who would eventually be .

charged with concealing and death have those charges later dropped? Tam is then asked if Justin is talking at this point, meaning was he conscious? This, according to Tammy, is when leon allegedly had .

just in in A. trading. With and that. New york and come around the gun we going down with that.

I change IT in. 成长的。 我 把 钥匙 口红 的。

Time is very emotional leader and at points that might be hard for to hear or understand that. But he states that when he walked into the garage to see what the commotion was, Justin was fighting with marty, then being choked from behind by leon because Justin was getting the best of marty while struggling to get free. Leon then went down to the ground with, just in hard, in tammis words, to break his neck. Then delay in new york came into the garage from around the side of the house, and new york says to roll them up in the plastic.

When you paint the house, the rolls kept, he did, did the big rolls and he almost kept in the asked who .

helped leon roll Justin up in the plastic through tears to my says. My son and marty Tommy says andy pickers had gone to get a gun and watched as Justin was rolled up in the plastic, telling her to go back upstairs and if he slowly made her way back up and out of the garage, SHE says dyan and leon went through justice .

pockets Martin in the a steel and even.

Without IT was when I say one in his pocket or what have you, I didn't literally see him in his pocket. What I think was going over, leaning over. 可是 呢， didn't. And leon, not the having words as marty and leon still changed, do all this here and they can never come on and help in york cussing them out and york and didn't cut them out as he.

I was already hit back stage.

then I heard when .

they get the man doors and me rending with upstairs this stop, and then heard something I thought IT was a shot .

again throughout this .

part of the interview, tell me, is clearly anxious and emotional when asked if he could be sure that the person rolled up in the plastic, as he described, was in fact just .

in gains SHE states he is White a big way. Here's a baby. Let you worked out and stop player change. This is where .

Tammy had said sh'd met just him before that he's been by the house before, by dog. Tammy goes on to describe two investigators that the van left with Justin headed for the houseboat. Leon, a new york, left separately, though he didn't believe they were going to the houseboat.

SHE tells us how SHE and Randy, the same man he would later describe as helping to dispose of justice s body, were instructed to clean up the garage and remove any evidence. He also says that he would be instructed by andy to clean up the houseboat a few days later and was told to use a black light to look for any blood on the interior. So nothing .

was missed on the house slider around the closet. And the the walls and the world is fingers, fingers on the thing. And he said, just a more the force i'm given done in where he had every four stripped out of their being.

Replaced with a hard work. I didn't go there, did you like? And to take the and go there and you could see, no.

he also states that a pair of bloody boots and a jacket with blood on IT were kept though I find this odd as Justin wasn't wearing a jacket that we know of, and he was wearing ten issues, but tami also goes mentioned ten issues in our interview. So maybe when he said boots, he was nervous or miss poke SHE talks about the van being crushed, evidence being disposed of, an adam ster and marty burning clothing that he was wearing that night, to me, tells much more than this. In the two hour interview, you get the idea. He does seem to get less sure of what happened after Justin was allegedly taken to the houseboat, but SHE openly stated that he wasn't there at the time, so all SHE could go on was little SHE was told or overheard later on her son deal in statements, even in the hours leading up to Justin's disappearance, also put me on square in the cross hair.

As we already know, Tammy blue wasn't the only one who discussed leon alleged role in this doing. Glass himself put me on in the mix with his statements to police back in september of twenty eleven when he was questioned about justice disappearance. It's my understanding that Dylan is the one who initiated this conversation with investigators. But remember, true or not, dalan has since stated to me, and he made up everything you're about to hear.

I wanted speak you. I like being like, feeling like. I feel so lof like, like animal is helpful to you and but like, I won't help you.

You'll immediately notice that the Dylan you here in this interview sounds vasily different than the dalen you here speaking with me.

I'm stay at people looking at me like I I need a person, man. Now I have take cool. I had a great show, but i've been there way before what the situation of you can happen.

And they had personal. I'm tired of being in my day. I'm tired of feel in my day. Now, what I like, say, like, I want what I got to do, play. I I .

want to bring .

a man fat peace. I bring. This sounds .

like something .

Dylan is said to me, that he wants to bring Justin's family peace, he says, drop this particular interview, but he is not involved injustice, disappearance in any way. But as you heard says, he feels leon is responsible, but gives no solid evidence of that.

I watch, I I know investigation since I have no people watch, Young student, Young team people. I already noticed. Well, if you knows everything, is that happen? My behavior, my life, everything i've been saying, i've been a if seven drugs wrong, and nobody is a seven drugs I might fight.

But I know the man I never killed him about in my lifetime. If you watch a lean, if you watch the behavior, everything, to have a man out of Sunny to here, he's an old different person. This name in a two thousand eleven .

interview with investigators, Dylan glass talks about meeting up with leon and several others in the parking lot of a walmart, which I talked about episodes just over three minutes into the conversation. And officer asked dEllen if he feels .

confident that .

he knows what happened that night, and some video came there, know he wanted to go to school. I still have found a cold front right in rope. I should will go to close, and I could. I want to take a public graphics, and whole time again.

doing states. He didn't go to clubs, something that has been told to me by several people who know him well. He says he declined the offer that night and that he just wanted to go party with leon and the girls he was with anywhere else. But he says that leon was acting weird .

within that night night. He, he a fun. point.

Dylan says leon told him he had something lined up a link, meaning someone they could. Rob, in a twenty fourteen interview with detectives, dolan says later that night, he went to andy pickens s. House and got a gun out of the safe doing mentals about leon new york and an uni dense fied even to him.

Blond girl pull up the andy house late at night in leon trail blazer. He says Justin gains was in the car. Some of the audio here is hard to understand. So our clarify we are needed.

You here go a girl voice .

in the background.

I did no single girl. There was a girl only natural. I don't the lab and no will put air, take the life.

And I know, please, this person, never. I don't know what. yeah.

There was a female in a, if I can call the enforcement, we could. Honey, there you see. OK, I see. And Better with you are just .

to get done. Says when they pulled up, Justin gains was in the back seat with the blond girl. Everything appeared to be fine at that point.

The yellow of front pathy the and drive sea like taking you like when they go and on. When they wrong, you think they pull back. This doesn't make a right mm on house. House take dulin tells investigators .

that new york and leon, when just down the road from andy's house to a dead end street, their intention was to rob. Justin dolen says he watched what unfolded from the corner of the street.

When the you're put strap on my men and we and now for three. He was time to me.

I need .

to see a girl and drive .

c SHE goes on .

one and get dress like I am a life. I will not go Better like our standing on corn street like I look. L, C.

I.

Anything I know, I want back to the world. See, I never want say for. Me, they pull up the most.

Being on in the back seat with the order first we get this over. Like, girl, I go, I don't know. He is my. And they returned shortly .

after Justin was being choked by leon in the back seat. Dolen describes just in at this point.

but he was, he was a way. He was not there. He was a way.

This is a different story than we previously .

heard in tani's audio. I come, come. So they thought about IT .

beyond would .

you if for but they try take and in .

vin is .

a in vain. No one doesn't debit. They try to take. I want not the action like they were over.

So I may forget we are getting to the, so he want a crime ship I got. States could do not get down this.

He says that new york wanted to use andy's van at this point, but andy refused.

They, they .

believe that.

what? Scare up through. And and fiction. They pull out, they go to the right of power road to pull one twenty four.

I so can I know which go? No, no, I can see to be. So this should I know? SHE, I know I will would call for this. You will turn that my lot .

people.

来来 来历 SHE to draw。 This is a shift like you only, therefore I don't. Dan admitted that .

he's used to seeing people get robbed, so IT wasn't a big deal to him initially, but he had no idea how how far this particular robbery was going to go. And IT .

scared him. He then says the car .

left with Justin that time I was upset and cry, and that andy was curious and yelling, and dolen couldn't stay at andy at night. So he called shame for a ride to go, look fully on as all of us calls to him, or going to voice male doing later makes IT to what I assume is leon's house. It's hard to tell and speaks with him in new york wanting to hang out for a while and find out what happened.

But it's told that he can't stay. He says that leon looked crazy and new york told him, shit rough right now you're got to go. He says leon gave in three hundred dollars, but he didn't know why and that we on wouldn't even take drugs for the money. We can only assume if this is a true story, IT might be what was taken from robbing dulin in chain eventually make IT back to andy's house because they had nowhere else to go. And dulan says that out of curiosity, he checks out the area where leon in new york had allegedly rob Justin on the dead street nearby.

来 一个 话题 呗。 我在这 吃 点 内容， 我也 行都 弄。 I you want know what I do?

I just want to look, I really want know that a while back. In the early on ground, I have a moral race. I get a toothed from each, and like to you make Peter here in output. So it's a little .

hard to determine the .

thailand in Dylan's interview, but after this he in shame took a latter and a few other things stolen from Mandy's house and took them to the porn shop where Dylan was seen the hearing appearing to match the one just in more that was at two or five P. M. Doins then girlfriend stated that he and shame arrived back at the house around twelve P. M, leaving a couple hours later. Again, this story varies from Tammy, but if this is all made up as doing now, says IT is he is one hell of a storyteller.

It's hard to know what to make out of Dylan interviews. On one hand, he seems to provide a lot of detail and experiences memory. On the other hand, not only this time his confession differ from some of Dylan statements, but he basically has two different accounts of what happened in the interview from two thousand and eleven.

He says something similar to what he's told me recently. Bridget was the reason for his name being brought into the case in the first place because he was looking for a reward. Mainly, he points a finger at leon in that interview, though he doesn't come out right and say that he killed him or choked him. He also says that leon changed immediately after justice disappearance, and the two stopped associating.

I've had these stories and people who tell you about me with true, I would be thought at one man, some and some terrible, well, really with the I am, he had no reason to change by that. What they .

have really .

trained for, what leon killed, the woman leon put IT, was somewhere. But he want liana very great person in is he'll see what he makes itself out of me liana and is my people thank Grace man leann is viewing .

ly denied any role in Justin's disappearance or death. Lyon would say in one of his interviews with police that he stopped associating with dwan because don told him he shot someone. Leon said he was scared and wanted nothing more to do with that lifestyle. In that same twenty eleven interview, when question about new york's possible role, dulan initiative says that despite him being a dangerous man, he doesn't believe he had .

anything to do with Justin's death. I believe that do with just but .

in twenty fourteen, delon provides the statements you just heard telling of new york and leon killing just in that night and now he's taken all that back. So what are we to believe from what i've heard in the hours of audio IT doesn't appear that anyone pressured him to speak. In fact, IT seems that was his idea to speak on the case, and he was more than willing to be helpful.

He said repeatedly, I want to help you all, but let's say that Dylan is telling me the truth. Now i've asked, what could make anyone admit to taking a part in a murder if they were innocent? Or everyone knows that false confessionals are real, they happen.

But why? What's the reason behind? Approximately fifteen percent of all wrongful, all convictions are caused by false confessions, and the innocence project said that of two hundred and fifty eight DNA exonerations they have handled nearly thirty percent involved the false confession in an interview with the american psychological association, world renown professor of psychology, so cain discussed several reasons why false confessionals occur in the psychology behind cause.

In states, there are three different types of false confessions. The first is a voluntary confession. Someone who just willingly walks into the police station and says, I did IT. This usually happens with a very high profile public case, think, killing a notable person or celebrity. These instances often includes some type of delusion of grander associated with the person, making the confession not likely the case here.

The second to deal with tactics used by law enforcement to obtain a confession, one being internalization, whereby a person comes to truly believe they committed a crime, although they're really innocent. This is more common in people with intellectual experiments and in Young children. The third type of false confession is obtained through relentless interrogation, hammering down again and again on the suspect until they eventually confessed, believing that they will help themselves more by actually confessing to a crime they didn't commit.

The problem with these confessions, according to cassine, is that when the pressure of the confession is lifted, they recant. But that part towns familiar here, but again, I don't hear one instance of anyone pressuring dalan. Nonetheless, delon was compelled to share with me a video made by bridget for his attorney regarding officers allegedly trying to get witnesses to lie about his guilt, injustice s. disappearance.

Dolen did not know that boy. Dressing games, that's not the type of person that he was associated with. Then police and investigators, they have arrest me so much, they have take damage my time, my life, they want and not just me with multiple people to tell us they want to add that he didn't do going to prison for they wanted to see him down.

In all of dill's interviews, he doesn't place the blame for Justin's death on himself, but instead on new york or leon, depending on which interview you're listening to.

So you left to wonder which, if any version of dEllen statements are factual, has he put the blame on everyone but himself in an effort to remove himself from something that could land him a murder charge? Or is IT possible that he's just scared of new york and the people associates with, like those with car tel connections? As i'm told, long enforcement knows new york's real identity as well as moneys chaos, and whole host of other people believe to be much more dangerous then dilling glass or leon.

I feel that the truth is buried somewhere in all of these things we've heard, at least in part. It's extremely difficult, though, to pick out all the facts from the monumental number of lies and rumors that have been told over the past sixteen plus years. And while we heard that several people have taken and failed polygraphs, some of these people, like bridget or teenagers, unlikely, scared to death, that could have possibly affected the results that could hold true with leon and his test as well.

And while Dylan has told me repeatedly that he took numerous polygraphs and past, I found that not to be true. As far as I can tell, MC rising jack with the G. B. I, and they have no record of him ever taking a polygraph pass or fail.

When you have the final part of dilling glasses interview with investigators, I want you to listen carefully, not just to what he says, but how he says you make the decision for yourself. Is he telling the truth that he was a scared Young kid who made the stupid decision to fuck with the cops for whatever reason? Or was he there when Justin gains his body was discarded in the most inhumane of ways?

Somebody is phone, got a picture with them when you are right side, put to the pay. For set date on the use, whatever he did, what have on whoever he did IT there was a pitch on the york and laying right now. And SHE got ted out.

So I like looking bit at what sweet home looking. Just me, people don't think about like that, would you like? You see, you should like IT the thirteen in your manner, in your house, you want to leave, you will be there like. 谢谢。 But he was missing a alia shot a desten of humanity.

Look at me, I like a guy is like a joke, like, like a more. Was he swelled up anything but he never moved? As I never moved, he was a day. Be here to be elaborate, but the I know single should .

let IT.

Drowning creek is an original production of wavelan I rote and created a series and the original score executive producers Jason hook, associate producers little cope, sound engineering by shame, freeman, special thanks to a Wilson and her family. If you have any leads on this case, please contact me at info at shaan cope dot com, and if you love the series, please leave a of you and tell your friends follow wavelan on instagram at wavelan media for more on this series and upcoming new shows, and you can also find me on social media at Shawn cape official or at Shawn cape that com. As always.

thanks for listening to.