"W. Kamau Bell"
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Okay, intro try one. They'll probably cut that, right? Yeah, you don't have to say intro. You just say, you just start with what the show is about. Okay, but I thought it would be if I go intro try, and then nobody says intro try. Nobody says intro. They just say that they just talk. Nobody says intro. That's a good point. That's a good point. So just talk. All right, just talk, take one. I thought you said... Welcome to SmartList. SmartList.

I find it really fascinating you sleep in separate bedrooms. Yeah, because what are you doing? You're just sleeping anyway. Otherwise, I'm a super light sleeper and I wake up at anything. I'm a light sleeper too. Well, why don't you either connect some earmuffs to your bite plate or

or get an operation for your beloved, or strap a CPAP onto his helmet and get on with it. We tried all of it.

His snoring is so bad. It's just, yeah, he's just a snorer. I can't deal with it. So does he sleep with a CPAP machine? He tried it. It's like suffocating. Wait, does Amanda or Alessandra snore? No. No. Do you guys? I have, but I don't really. If I sleep on my back, yeah. So you snore? On my back. All right.

Wait a second. You're very defensive. When you sleep on your back, you do, or you do sleep on your back, therefore you snore. I no longer sleep on my back because I'm tired of taking fire on my ribs from my sleeping partner. You know, that's a kick or a punch, and that means flip over and shut your mouth.

So I have... How many times have you heard that sentence, Will? I was just going to say, while you're awake or while you're asleep. Flip over, shut your mouth, and don't look at me. That's a complete sentence you used to? That's how him and Alessandra met. That's how we, yeah. I think actually that's a website that you guys went on. Yeah, it was called Just Peg Me. Um...

Okay, well, I don't want to keep our guests waiting too much longer. We have a very, very special soul on today. He's a stand-up comedian, and he has hosted the popular television series United Shades of America since 2016. I love him. He makes me laugh. He makes me think.

Two things that Will tries really hard at. But please welcome W. Kamau Bell. Hello there. Kamau. No kidding. I am so... I want to know, first of all, we just call you Kamau because nobody says W, right? No, people who don't know me, but we all know each other. We're such good friends. I heard about the pegging and everything. So we're all cool.

Justpegme.com. We get into docking on the second half of the show. Stay tuned. What is W? What is the W? Walter is my dad's first name, too. So it's just... Oh, that's a lovely name. Not really, but thanks. I mean, there's never been a... Like, maybe Walt Frazier. That was the last cool Walter in culture. But Wally, there's some cool Wallys, right? Wally Fister. First of all, there's Wally, like as in...

Wally. That's a cool Wally? Jesus. Hey, can that be our new sign-off? Wally. Our buddy Wally Pfister is a cool cinematographer slash director. He's a cool guy. Wow, we're already the cinematographers. We're already... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, listen. We're all about the arts.

Will presented me with my last Emmy. Will did? I did present you. This is the second time that this has happened to me. I did present you with an Emmy. So you guys, first of all, I just want to point out, you guys are all Emmy winners. I'm the only non-Emmy winner here. Yeah. So congrats. I bet you've got an Annie. Do you have an Annie? I do. I have a few. Do you have a Cleo? No, I'm a guy.

Okay. No, no, Will. Sorry. You must have cut out there for a second. Yeah. Cleo. Cleo. No, no, I don't. Sorry. No, I don't. That's okay. Yeah. All right. So Kamau, you've done, you know, reading about you and, and, and knowing you the very little bit that I do from Sundance. We hung out for a while and,

really connected, at least I thought so. And just adore you and adore your brain and adore your ambition to get the message out to people like us who are that bright. And I love your show, how it just kind of, the United Shades of America, how it just kind of displays for us the questions and the answers in such a palatable way.

and it's so easily digestible and something everybody can understand. So how did you think of the show, and why did you think of the show? You know, I always wanted to do a show like this, but there was no way to, there's no path to these shows. Back in the day, I would just sit on my couch watching Bourdain being like, how do you get one of those? Yeah, right, right, right. That's cool. Travel around and talking to people. I can do that. And really, I had a show before this show called Totally Biased that was my first big break on FX. And then when that show was canceled,

It just happened to be at the same time that CNN was looking to break in another show like Bourdain. So I was in the position of them sort of pitching me on the idea, which was really great. And also in a position where Bourdain had so kicked the door wide open, there was nothing I was going to do that was going to be bigger than him. So I really got a lot of freedom to sort of really make the show in my image, which has been great. I love that. First of all, what was it that drove you to... Because as a stand-up, you could just be...

you know, doing Netflix specials or HBO specials or doing whatever. And it seems that you've kind of, I mean, sure. We all want that. I wouldn't want to do that. But you know what they, like if they came to me and said, Hey, we want to give you 20 million to do a standup special. I'd say, here's the, here's the routing number for my bank. No pass. What are you saying? You thought I was going to say pass, but, but my question, I guess to you is come out is,

You've decided you have a, obviously sort of built into what you do and your voice is this political bent, this activist bent where that's a big part of who you are. And what do you think it was that kind of, what was that moment that, or was there a seminal moment that drove you that way as opposed to just straight up stand-up? I mean, when I started doing stand-up, I was just trying to be funny like everybody is trying to be funny. And I really did not have any intention of being some sort of like cultist

cultural, social, whatever his voice is. But I was raised by a black lady with opinions. And so deep inside of me is that if something's wrong, you're supposed to say something. And so I think as I got older and I had more of a stake in the world, I started to pay more attention to the news. And like I said, I literally, my mom's, like I used to, I was an only child, so I hang out with my mom a lot and she'd be around adults.

And so they would be, and you know, a lot of black folks who were coming out of the civil rights movement who were like, we have jobs now, but we're still pretty pissed about the state of the world. And I just heard these conversations all the time. And so I think for me, it was just like, in some sense, I didn't really want to be this kind of comedian. I wanted to be a comedian because of Eddie Murphy on Starting Out Hot. So that was not really like, it wasn't like I came out like I got to be Gregory. But I think I was attracted to that. And then as a young comedian, I was introduced to Bill Hicks when Bill Hicks was still like a folktale. He had passed away.

But it was just like somebody like handed me a tape of like, listen to this. I was like, oh, that that's that's what I want to do. And then you like Chris Rock is a big influence. And I get to be around Dave Chappelle a lot, like like post South Africa and really watch him on stage a lot. And just be like, you know, not that I'm any percentage of any of these comics, but really that's the thing I'm attracted to doing is like speaking my mind and taking a stand. Just I would rather be Kevin Hart. That doesn't seem easy, but it does seem more cost efficient.

So how often are you, you're traveling around the country, not eight weeks a year with eight episodes. You're doing probably eight months, yeah? Yeah, I mean, we shoot, I mean, the shows are pretty quickly shot. People don't realize this, but we shoot in like a seven-day week. But yeah, it takes up most of the year with the editing. And then...

after that, like whatever time is left over, I still do because I'm on CNN instead of doing standup gigs, I do lecture tours, which pay better. So like I do a lot of college and private gigs, like sort of talking about the work and, um,

That was my year up until the coronavirus. I want to ask you about two, well, many episodes. I mean, we could take the entire time on this podcast episode to talk about even one of your episodes. But one of the fascinating ones was the first episode. One of the first episodes, you met with a KKK member in Kentucky and Arkansas, I think. Several KKK members. Yeah. This is fascinating. How does a black man even get...

go into that and feel safe. And how did that happen? What does that phone call like?

And so that was the pilot episode. And again, sort of coming off of like, at that point, CNN had Bourdain, Lisa Ling, Morgan Spurlock, Mike Rowe. And so I was aware that like, if they're going to add a new show, I have to do something that none of those shows is going to do. And the elevator pitch was black guy goes places he shouldn't, was basically the elevator pitch for the show. So where shouldn't the black guy go? The number one place is a Klan meeting. So yeah, there's, for the pilot, maybe the pilot won't go and I'll have a good story. But I'll have a good story.

But also I have to do something that CNN will be like, well, nobody does this on our networks. So once we decided to do the show, that was my pitch. And they pitched a lot of other things and I kept being like, what about the Klan? And they're like, fine. I was like, oh shit. And then it was about like, luckily I didn't have to do this, but producers having to call

clan chapters and be like, hey, you can see an income. Hello? Hello? And then, you know, hey, you can see an income with a black guy. Hello? Hello? What about a black comedian? And then we were left with like four groups who were like, sure, because they wanted to be on TV. Wow, because they wanted to be on TV. Because they wanted to be on TV because they figured just no publicity is bad publicity. Yeah. So the clan thinks every white person really is secretly a fan of the clan. So that like even the white people who watch CNN are going to be like,

Like, we're going to be watching it like, yeah, these guys have a good point. Because you have to, to be that delusional. Wow. The producer told me he was like, he had to pretend like he was like down with them to get them to let us come. Right. No way.

So Kamau, with the guy that you, the Klansman that you interviewed, did he try his best to give you the- That's Mr. Klansman to you, sir. Doctor. Doctor Reverend. Reverend Doctor Klansman. Yeah, Doctor Reverend Klansman. Did he do his best to try to convince you that what they're thinking is is not nuts? And if so, what was that sentence like?

Well, I think that first of all, I talked to several. So I went to a cross burning or as they call across lighting. So it was like an actual clan meeting, a clavine, as they say. And then I talked to a guy named Dr. Thomas Robb, who's from Harris around Harrison, Arkansas, who has like a I call it a compound. He says a church tomato, tomato. And so I talked to several different versions of the clan. And there's sort of some basic levels of like.

It's sort of related to the Fox News thing, actually, where they're like, well, we all know black people don't know how to police themselves. I mean, we all know that. I mean, so right. So there's there's a way they talk to you as if like these are all facts. Right. I mean, we all know that, you know, obviously you'd rather be with your people. And I would want to be and I'd like to be with my people. Obviously, we don't want to have our people mixing. And I was like, well, I'm married to a white lady. Convenient truth. So there was a lot of like them sort of trying to.

Like I said, they act as if these things are just common sense. If we could just get past all the rhetoric, we all know these things are true. And so it was really... And there was some, like, it was right around the time Ferguson had happened, so there was some heat around at that moment. They wanted to scare me when I first got there, and I had to sort of stand back while they were like...

And just sort of like let them get out the bluster before we could talk. And did you get the sense at when you were done talking to this person? Like I would find it impossible for anyone to just having talked to you for five minutes to come away from a conversation with you and not like you and not want to be friends with you. Did you get the sense at the end that this guy –

would be like, you know, we can be friends. I mean, I can still have my thoughts, but we can still be like, did you get the sense that maybe you had turned him a little bit? There was multiple levels because, again, it was like Dr. Thomas Robb is a professional Klansman. He's not going to get turned because this is how he pays his rent, basically. He's not invested. But when I went to the Klan meeting, like the cross burning, definitely.

I was there for several hours, like three or four hours, because we got there during daylight and we had to wait for it to be pitch black for them to burn the cross. And so I was talking to them about the process in a way that you would like think of like

a PBS show. Like, how do you burn the cross? Where do you get the wood from? What do you use to light the cross? And so at some point, it becomes dudes talking about, like, home projects. Wow. Yeah, you rope-a-dope them into a conversation, and pretty soon they realize, oh my gosh, we're just, we're having fun with a guy that we're supposed to hate, I guess? Right. Question mark? Yeah.

And then some of them wouldn't talk to me at all. Like they would just stay clear because I think they were afraid of catching blacks. So they were like really not even interested in talking to me. So wait, so when you're sitting there and talking to them about like, hey, who's holding the lighter and all that kind of bullshit, are they wearing their fucking robes and their stupid hats and everything? Well, yeah, we asked. I mean, we did ask them to come. You know, you got to come wearing the dress whites, as we say, for the purposes of CNN. And so it was August.

And they talked about how hot it was under the robes. And I said, maybe you should have thought of that. Yeah. Switch the big meeting to December or something. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, they talked about how hot it is under the robes. But there must have been like a certain level of how foolish, on top of everything else, they must have seemed in these stupid ass robes and their fucking hats and all the hoods.

and spouting and talking about putting the lumber together for a fucking cross burning and how do you think there was ever a moment like where did you ever remember you're like looking at them and you got a sense that they did they ever feel with shame of like yeah I look like a fucking fool I am a fucking fool of a human being no

No, I don't think that happens in the moment. I think that happens years later if you look back. But no, I think they were like – we all had a cool jacket in high school, right? That made you feel like you were a million dollars. And now you'd look back and be like – You see an old picture. You're like, oh, I can't believe I ever wore that. Have you noticed that in traveling around the country, has it been a –

distractingly clear to you. I mean, certain parts of the country, I would imagine it would be more, more apparent. Have you noticed that come on? I mean, I think that for me, the racism is like wine and there's just different versions of it. Like some of it's more full bodied and some of it's more like someone's more like this one's Woody. This one's got a little like garlic flavor to it. And that,

But so I say that, like, I don't think like living in, I live in Oakland, California, Berkeley, San Francisco there. It's not that there's not racism here. It's just the kind that I think is the kind I can get along with the best. Got it. But my dad lives in Mobile, Alabama, and I used to go there every summer. And there are things about Mobile, Alabama that I'm like,

it's at least friendlier here. Like, you know, like there's this, there's that even with the dealing with racism, there are things I like better about Mobile, Alabama than I like about the Bay Area. It's just, this is the kind of racism I can live with. But I'll tell you this, the only time I've been kicked out of a place because I was black was in Chicago and Berkeley.

Wow. What does that look like? What do you mean you got kicked out? So when I was a teenager, I lived in Chicago, and I was in a record store waiting for a friend of mine, and I was in there for like, you know, an hour, but, you know, which is not a long time to be in a record store unless you're 15 and black. And I went,

And I was starting to walk out of the record store and the security guard came behind me and grabbed me by the collar and was like, I need to search you down. You stole something. I hadn't stole anything. I don't even need to say that. But and I and he basically didn't find anything on me. He found my inhaler. He's like, do you have asthma? Which is like, what a strange question to ask right now, sir.

And who did you steal that asthma from the environment, the toxic environment I was raised in. So and he basically like literally bum rushed me and threw me out onto the street. So I've been in Alabama a lot. That's never happened. And then when I was this happened 2015. So I was like an adult with two kids.

in Berkeley, California. And my wife, who was white, as I mentioned, was at a coffee shop with our 13 week old baby and some of her friends. And I went to go say hello to her and talk to her. And the coffee shop knocked somebody in the coffee shop, knocked on the window and said, get out of here. Because they thought I was like bothering these four white ladies in the middle of their life. No fucking way. Unbelievable. So for me, it's like,

I think there's a level of like, the South has a level of historical violence that we associate with the South that we think is always happening, which definitely happens, but it's not always happening. But outside of the South, there's racism that's like,

Like people in the South and they're being racist. They actually know they're being racist. A lot of times outside the South, people do things that are racist and they're like, no, it was just because you were wearing a hat. I didn't, it had nothing to do with you being black. Let me ask you, let me ask you about that. So to that, let me ask you about that incident in, in, uh, in Berkeley where you go up and you talk to your wife and somebody knocks on the window and

What ends up happening in that? What's your reaction? Do you freak out? Do you tell them to go fuck themselves? Is there a confrontation? Here's the funny part. So this is like, and you all have been in this position, I'm somewhat like this, where somebody like is like- Oh, because none of that was funny? Yeah. We're finally at the funny part, guys. Welcome to the funny part. So when the person knocked on the cafe window-

In the Bay Area, I'm a little bit extra famous out here. So I looked up like, yeah, you have seen me on that TV show. Get out? Wait a minute. No, I wasn't in that movie. So like...

There was just, and I was like, yeah, yeah, it's me. Oh, so it was like a real like, like turn upside down. It took me a second to even get my bearings back. And then my wife saw my face and because we've been together a long time, she was like, oh, something racist happened. Let me see what's going on around here. And then the woman from the coffee shop came out to really give me the like move along from these nice white ladies. Yeah.

And that 180 must have made it extra difficult in that moment in particular to sort of fall from, yeah, because we've all done that same thing, which is like, yeah, hey, can I get a picture? Of course, of course, thanks. Just take it of me and my, oh, you want me to take a picture? Oh, sorry. Exactly. And it's that same...

but then magnify it by a million, right? And so like you're doing from that to that, that must have been, you know, by the way, speaking of pulling your pants down, I was in a parking lot once with Bateman and we were coming out of the old Jerry's Deli in the marina and we were about to go to work and I was standing there wearing sweatpants and he's like, so I guess I'll see you. And I go, yeah. And he just,

Pants me out of the blue, underpants and sweats. And I had something in my hand and my pants were in my hand. I was like, Jesus, fuck. You're lucky I didn't push you over like I used to finish the job in grade school. We weren't 18. We were 35 at the time. Well, you know, you wear sweatpants. That's what you're going to get. Did you learn? I don't know.

I want to ask you about another episode that you did on United States of America. And I'm sorry to bring this guy up again. Maybe you like to talk about him. Maybe you don't. But I'm always fascinated with people who hate like the KKK and Richard Spencer. Yes. And your encounter with Richard Spencer, who is...

you know, the self-proclaimed white supremacist and credited with the term alt-right. Isn't that correct? Yeah. And so again, with the KKK, Richard Spencer, who's a very scary person, how did you land that interview? And like...

You know, why did he agree to that? I mean, he loves TV. And I think he actually, you know, I think the funny thing about him is that he's not as scary as he used to be because I think a lot of programs like mine sort of like, here, talk, say more. And the more he said, the more even his supporters were like, yikes. So I think that like that was the time when I think I got a lot of criticism for that interview because people said I gave him a platform or I, you know, there was all that talk about don't normalize people. And I'm like, this is America. This dude, this all these ideas are real and he's going to talk about it.

I think we got him because weirdly we got there before the point he got big. And I think that we sort of like when we had him agree to do it, he was like this sort of unknown guy. By the time we filmed it, he had become more known. And by the time he aired, he was like a national figure. But people didn't realize when I talked to him, he hadn't been punched in the face yet. So people were like, why didn't you punch him in the face? Well, first of all, not really my style.

But also that's not how time works. So like it just, but yeah, I mean, I got a lot of heat from the left for that interview because I was talking to this guy who was such a demagogue and it's like, but I sort of, I feel like that's part of my job and I'm not, I don't feel like I'm giving him a platform because I, I was there to talk with him too. I didn't go, Richard, you take this segment. I'm gonna go chill out. You know, I was there to talk with him. Well, it's also, it's a great venue that you've created to make us aware of these people.

and these problems and these social issues, you know? I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Can I shift gears for a second? So how did you... What was your start in stand-up? How did that happen? I mean, you know, signed up at a coffee shop, paid 99 cents to perform. You know, like, I was really... I was a kid who was a comedy nerd before that was a thing, so I just really loved...

I was like, you know, my friends would be like, did you hear the new Public Enemy song? I was like, did you see the new Young Comedian special with Jan Karam and Dennis Miller? Like, I was just like a real lover of stand-up comedy from back in the day. Like, I remember seeing Seinfeld on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson and like...

all these things where it's like, I just loved that. I loved it. You know? So it just, it was like, but I also, when I started doing it, I was also not funny for a very long time. So it took me a long time to do that thing. And they call finding your voice. It took me a long time to figure out. And I think because the things I wanted to do, I was afraid to do. So it took me a long time to, to actually figure out how I wanted to do it. I love it. It's one of the scariest jobs on, I mean, I've never done standup and it's just, you know, the scariest thing to me, uh,

seems to be getting out there. It's so, because it's just you and your thoughts and like, this is what I think is funny. Let's hope you do too. So here we, you know. - I was terrible at it. Did you never did it well? Did you do it Jason? No, ever.

I know I haven't. I would be, I would be petrified for sure, because I would imagine that the sweet spot comes when you can kind of match, uh, your, your, your, your mood or your attitude with, with your, with your humor as well. In other words, if all you have are the jokes, um, if the jokes aren't great, you're not going to get last, but if you can marry some sort of, some sort of attitude or vibe or, or tone, uh,

then the audience is perhaps more sort of preconditioned to like that joke. I mean, I bet it's a marriage between the two. There was always the knock on Dane Cook, right? They said that he didn't have lots of jokes. I'm not really that familiar, but he had a lot of attitude that lent itself to it.

Right. So people were kind of enjoying his energy and the jokes, but it was a kind of a combination of the two as opposed to somebody who just goes out there and just says, you know, so a dentist and a rabbi walk. Like it's you are you're you're fully reliant on the content of the joke and there's no personality with it. I failed miserably at it. I was I was horrible at it. I my opening joke whenever I would go out is this so bad. Nobody laughed.

It was, you know, they say doing ballet is one of the most difficult things you could do. So I say, don't do it. Boy. Yeah. So come out. It was funny because it was so like, it's like a New Yorker cartoon. Yeah, it is.

I told you it was bad. I was horrible at it. Jason, whatever happened with the dentist and the rabbi, though? So, yeah, so let me finish. So the dentist goes in there, and the rabbi is, yeah, guys, come on. Pay attention.

I want to give us all whiplash here and I want to, I want to go back to something cause I really, I want to know your opinion on this come out. How old are your kids? Uh, nine, five and a half and two. Okay. How old do you think it is? Well, when do you think kids should learn about black history? I've got a 13 year old and an eight and an eight year old, two girls. And, uh,

What is the perfect age where a kid is smart enough to hear the lesson and say, Jesus, I'm glad we're past the teeth of that. And we still have a lot of work to root out the rest of the racism. But do you know what I mean?

Can you pick the question out of that? So here's the thing with my, with our oldest daughter who was four, when the cafe thing happened, when that happened, we realized, me and my wife realized that we had talked to our daughter about race, which is a different conversation than racism. So the race conversation is like,

C.J. Walker was the first woman to be a self-made millionaire in this country and she made hair products or Michael Jordan is a great basketball player. Like that's the race conversation about great things that people of this race had done. Yeah. But the racism conversation we hadn't had. And at some point I

I realize as a black guy who's raising a black girl who's also mixed race because her mom is half white, that if at some point she learns that outside the house, then I've been negligent. If the first time my kid hears the word slavery is from a teacher who I don't know necessarily is going to talk about it in the right way, to me it feels like not teaching your kid to go to the bathroom when they need to go to the bathroom. It's a thing that you need to teach as a parent in the household. I think...

parents of color, black parents, we really understand that and over-index on that. And I think white parents a lot of times, like you said, are sort of a little bit like, I don't want them to take the wrong idea. But we also forget that kids have a really good moral compass generally. So all the conversations about racism, they understand what's fair and what's not fair. I think the things adults are afraid of is not being able to explain why slavery happened to a kid. But for me, the best thing about that I've done with my kid is like, I have no idea.

And to me, owning the fact that letting my kid know that like, this is horrible. She'd be like, but why, why would they do that? I said, I don't think that they just didn't think black people really were the same as white people, but why there's a level of why that all parents get to with lots of things. Like, why is the sky blue with the sky is blue. We feel comfortable going. I don't know. It's just blue.

I think it's fine with the racism discussion. Also good to point of going, I really can't explain it to you, but this is what happened. And I, for me, it's important that my kids have a sense of, of that really that same system of fairness and justice. They apply to like splitting a cookie in half. They apply that to racism. I read a lot about world war two in European history. And I was reading this book and my kids were asking about world war two and I had to explain to them that,

My oldest son was probably seven and a half at the time. He's now 11. And explained to him about World War II and the Holocaust. And he was like, what is it? And I was like, holy shit, I can't believe I'm at this moment where I've got to explain to him what the Holocaust is. And I was like, well, it's a truth. It's a reality. I can try to serve it to him in a way that's not too frightening to a seven-year-old, but also that's not hiding what happened. I said...

you know, and you explained to him that 6 million Jews and then an additional 20 million people were murdered. And that's a big fucking scary notion. And I just remember him thinking like that same thing you were saying of like,

But why did they do that? Yeah, why did they hate Jewish people? Like, imagine if you were Jewish, like how you would explain that to Archie and then Archie thinks, wait, people hated us at some point? And like, that's just a, you want to make sure that they're old enough to be able to say, oh, well, that's just like, those people were fucking idiots and I'll never be anything like that and work as hard as I can my whole life to keep that away. You know, there is an age, I think, where kids are too young to put that in its right size. Yeah.

But I think we make those decisions all the time about our kids. Like what level of the where do babies come from conversation do you get into with them? At some point, kids want to know. And you can go the stork if you want to. But then at some point, if you go too far down the stork road, then you got to like, man, now they're 17. Yeah.

Where did all these grandkids come from? Yeah, exactly. So I feel like, you know, I mean, in the same way that like, I didn't grow up believing in Santa Claus because my mom was like, no, no, I'm a single parent. I bought all this shit.

you know, but my wife grew up believing in Santa Claus and she wanted our kids to believe in Santa Claus. And so it's like, I guess we're going to believe in Santa Claus. We all the time with our kids, we create these ways or we let them believe in things that aren't real. We create all these fairy tales. My kid thinks unicorns are real. And I'm like, okay, for now we'll do that. So I think we're always making those kinds of decisions. And for me as a black parent, I feel like

I can't hide all that other stuff because, again, I don't want that stuff to come in in a way that I can't control. And I think we all have a and we all know our kids and we all know there's a level at which your kid will go, OK, that's enough for today. I want to go do something else. And you don't go, no, I'm not done talking about the transatlantic slave trade. I think you let your kid go do other things. Right. So is this why you're a part of Race Forward, which is kind of like a think tank?

Yeah, to me it's important to, now that I've been identified as a public figure and entertainer who does this work, and the thing that I can do for people in places like Race Forward or like the ACLU is go, here's how the people are receiving the message. Is there more information I can give them? A lot of times these places don't know how to get the information to the people in a way that people can take. And so as an entertainer, I can be like, oh, I can take this big, complicated idea you have and break it into bite-sized chunks. Yeah, which is what your show is kind of like. Exactly, yeah, that's what I'm hoping to do.

Sean, were you really confused when they were saying defund the police? Were you like, why? Stuart Copeland needs money too. He's part of the police. Because I see your shirt there. Were you feeling like the police wasn't going to... Well, this is a band, a group. Because you know it's different, right? They weren't saying take money away from the band, the police. So wait, let me understand. So you're saying Sting... They weren't saying to Sting, like Sting, they were going to take all his bass guitars away. They weren't going to do that.

So, okay, I get it. All right, Kamau, what part of the show do you love the most from like a technical and like do you see this as a jumping off point to become more of an actor, more of a director, more of a writer, more of a producer, all of the above? Like what ideally would be your next venture in entertainment? Finally, we can talk about my ideas for the next season of Ozark. Okay. Here we go. Here's what we'll do. Bye.

Finally, finally. Yeah, I don't really see my, I don't see myself as an actor. I see myself as somebody who's now it's my job to produce and bring other people into shows like this that wouldn't normally have access to host a show like this. I think the reason why that like,

the thing about me that connects me to Bourdain is neither one of us was like a journalist who got a TV show. We were both like people who were like in our lives, doing our thing, who then ended up with these shows. And I think the more people we bring in from outside of Hollywood to do these things, that the shows become more interesting. So I really do want to produce and bring in more diverse voices to shows like this. Yeah. That's my goal. And I've started, and I directed a documentary about Chris Rock a year or so ago. And so I do also want to produce a director. I can't, I, you know, I really don't want to have to be relying on this space forever. It's,

The pandemic has been hard on me. So nonfiction stuff is where you'd love to stay, and socially relevant issues? Yeah, I mean, I think for me it's always socially relevant, even if it's not stated. Like the Chris Rock documentary I did, Chris is socially relevant, but it was also just me as a comedy nerd wanting to talk about his special brain in the pain. So I don't think it always has to be like, you know, it's not always medicine.

Like, I think that like, it's something like, these are things I happen to be interested in. I think it is great when you can bring in sort of bigger themes into all these things, because I think all, everything we do has a bigger theme in it. And I think it's great to sort of be able to bring those themes out. But no, I also, you know, there are things I want to do that are fun too. Yeah. It's not, it's not always this didactic. Do you agree with this idea that maybe it would be better or it would, it would expand and make it more enjoyable in season four of Ozark if Marty died?

No one's saying that. Jason, hang on. Stop cutting people. I'm listening. If a new guy came into town, I got it. A little bit taller, a little more handsome. Wait a second. He's got a shorter haircut. Maybe he's from north of the border. Some pipes. It is our last season. I might die. It's the last season. You never know. Don't let that happen.

Kill all my dreams. I mean, you know, just to be clear, with Ozark, there are bigger themes in that show other than just like this. And just to be 100% transparent, huge fan of Ozark. And there are bigger themes in that show than just... Yeah, to all three of you. You're doing a great job. Sure, yeah, no, thanks. Yeah, thanks. But there are...

it's also like an exciting show to watch, but there are bigger themes in that show that come through. So I don't think it's, I don't think the things have to be always so, you could do a documentary about that place, but it's also, they can come through in a fictional way. Well, listen, let me just say from everybody at Jason's production company, Prehan's Productions, that we're so, we're so grateful, Prehan's Productions.

Well, Kamau, I want to thank you for being here today. Thank you for taking the time. And I really, truly mean I'm a huge fan. Thank you for teaching me shit that I would have not had any other access to and really enlightening me and millions of other people. And so I appreciate you and I appreciate what you do. Thank you. Thank you, my friend. Good to see you. Thank you for joining us, pal. Thank you, Kamau. Wow. Thanks, man. Thanks for having me. See you later. All right. Thanks. Bye.

So I've always loved him because, well, I met him in Sundance, like, I don't know, a couple of years ago. And that's when I got to learn about his show and him and a fascinating background, fascinating guy, super smart, super on it. Like, and I love those kinds of shows where they do all the homework for you. It's like a documentary every episode. And you're like, you just get like the nuts and bolts of what you need to know and what you need to learn. And I just love him.

I think that's what they're saying about our show, you know, that we're really educating people. Yeah. Doubt that. I don't think there's a single person saying that. Really? No. I don't think that they're. I love that, Sean. I love that you admit. This is my vision of you. It's just like you and Scott, you have a nice meal, right? Probably tuna salad on white bread with potato chips. What?

That's exactly right. And his bite plate soaking in a cup. I think I should start every episode with an ailment. Keep going. And then you just sit on the couch and you're like,

And then you turn on the TV and then there's a switch for your brain and you just turn it off. Right. And it's everything. You wear a bib because of the drool. Yeah. And you're like, blow my brain with new stuff. You pretty much got me nailed. That's me to a T. Here's what I picture you, Will. I picture you every night after your arugula salad.

sitting in front of the television, but there's a mirror on top of it so you can look at yourself watching the TV. Is that right? I got rid of the television altogether. It's just a mirror now. I was like, what are we doing? Why are we playing this foolish game? This is all I really want to watch. Cut to the goddamn chase.

All right. And then it's just a staring contest. But what a cool dude and what a funny guy. And great guest, Sean. Thanks. Yeah, I love him. You guys keep nailing it with your guests. Yeah, Will, what's going on, man? I mean, don't make us replace you. Because if you don't start bringing the heat with your guests...

Guys, we're not rolling anymore, right? Will, let me, listen. Yeah, we are inches away. There are lists being made. Because we are this close. There are lists. We've had three open call auditions for your spot. We haven't found anybody yet, but we are real close. What? Yeah. No way. What if I came in and I auditioned in a disguise? You mean this isn't it? Like Bobby Valentine. With your Rolodex. And these are the people I can bring. No.

No, your guests are incredible. I'm so flattered and stunned by the people that we three have gotten so far. Right? It's very humbling. Yeah. This has been an amazing thing to be part of such a huge, long rollout of an Ozark press tour. We're trying to hide it, but it's come out, it was a little not subtle there on that last little bit there. Whoever it is...

Ted, I'm going to call Sarandos and I'm calling the MRC and I'm like, where's my paycheck? Ted Sarandos runs Netflix. Thank you. Oh, for fuck's sake. Cheesehead, Tigger. One of these days, I'm going to fucking lose it. All right. We'll see you guys next episode. Hey, hey, hey. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

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