“Sean Penn”
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Oh, listener, welcome to our show. It's called Smartless, and it's going to be incredible. Oh, settle in. The stuff we've got for you today. Oh, man, cinch your speedo, because we're really going to get going on this one. Yeah. Oh, man. Welcome to Smartless. Smart. Less. Smart. Less.

Hi, everybody. Oh, so I am in a remote location. Will is in a remote location. Sean... Still at home. You look like you're in a different room in the castle. No, I just have the door open because the dog is laying down behind me. He's been kind of...

Slow today. Gassy? Oh, geez. Walk us through it. I mean, what a story. Well, why are you leaving the door open for a slow dog? Because you can't see him. He's on the floor. Because it takes him a while to get through because he's slow. I don't know. I just want to let him know he's not alone. Huh. Oh, bless your heart. What do you do for Scotty? You also leave a door open for Scotty? No. But you know what? What if you pan your camera down and Scotty was laying next to the dog on the floor? No.

No, but you know, we got in a little tiff today because he, rightfully so, he is correct. I interrupt him too much is what we argued about. Sure. Do you guys get that a lot?

No, because like, I know what he's going to say. So I'm just like, and I finished the sentence. And he's like, can you just let me finish what my thought was? Can I tell you something? Yeah. I got to say, I'm with Scotty on this. This has been a pet peeve of mine for a while. I have certain people who are close to me. I'm not going to name them, but I grew up with them and we're related. And they go, and they go, you go like, oh man. So the other day I was coming down the street.

No, I was coming down the canyon and I was noticing that it was sunny. And you're like, oh, do you just want to guess what I'm going to say? Or do you want me to say it? Yeah, I know. It's a thing. That drives me fucking mental. It makes you feel like people just want you to get on with it, right? My wife does the same thing to me. No, your wife, I get it. I'm sorry if I'm boring you. That's exactly what Scotty said. Jason, I get it. With you, it is that you're boring her. And I get it. She's not wrong because you're a little bit slow and too deliberate sometimes. With me, it's not that. You see, I'm able to see. I know.

No, I was listening to the Tony Hawk episode today, and I'm like, Jesus, Jason. I talk to myself in third person when I'm in the car. Jason, get on with the question. The listener and the questioneer

Questioner, questionnaire, subject, interviewee. They get it. Just go ahead and just chop it off and let them talk. Yeah, no, but sometimes you have to relate before you ask the question. You did have a long question. You did have a really long question for Tony Hawk that was fucking crazy. I always do, though. Maybe I just like to hear myself talk. I kind of don't mind it because you have to give the question context. So sometimes it takes a second.

right but that's just it you don't have to when you're listening to it you're like i get it or i'm ahead of you shut up well my questions are like what's your favorite color and stuff like that so i guess they just kind of yeah no your questions you're it's a whole different thing with you you know after this session we're gonna have a real sit down

Okay? Broadway stories. Just stay on your Zoom. By the way, the Tony Hawk episode, I listened to it as well the other day, and I got burned on the Broadway question when I said I made fun, and then he was like, I am doing a Broadway show. I know. How about that, Tony Hoxton? That's true. I know. See? God, we're all so dumb. I haven't finished the episode yet. How does it end? We all died. Yeah, we all died. Spoiler alert. We did? Yeah, spoiler alert. And the butler did it. Oh. Oh, but here's the good news. We have a butler.

Hey, listen, I want to get to our guest because our guest is a very busy person. I'm so, to say I'm thrilled is like the understatement of the century. I'm so excited to have this guy on our program. He is a... The Prime Minister of Canada. An incredible artist, an incredible activist who, this isn't one of these things where like activists for 10 minutes and then like, good, everybody noticed. And so like I'm back to doing what I do. This is a person who's...

Not just talking the talk, but walking the walk. And it's really fucking admirable and incredible, especially in a time that's so complicated and so many issues are pressing in so many real fucking ways. This is a boots-on-the-ground activist. This is a fucking artist who shares with you, Jason...

something that not a lot of people know, that you both basically got your start on Little House on the Prairie. Is this Andy Dick? No, this person is a five-time Academy Award nominee and two-time Academy Award winner for Best Actor. I just got to get right to it. This is Sean Penn.

Oh, my God. There he is. Sean Penn. Hi, fellas. You started on Little House on the Prairie? Come on. It was a summer job as an extra, yeah. Incredible. Oh, wow. That's so cool. Were you sitting on a folding chair and holding the whole time? You know, it's funny you ask that because the principal memory I have was when they broke for lunch.

They said, we just need to get first team through. Well, I didn't feel it was proper to go to an organized lunch that wasn't within the time period. So I stayed out in the sun in Simi Valley. And as soon as they got back and were ready to shoot, I fell down from sun exhaustion. Oh, I thought you were going to say that you went in and you churned your own butter. Sean, I just said this.

Today, I was sitting on the couch with my husband, Scotty. Your trailer was playing for your new movie called... Flag Day. Flag Day. Flag Day. Flag Day, and I said... One of the greatest scripts I've ever read in my life. I said, that movie looks amazing. There's nothing this guy can't do. It already looks incredible. Your performance just from the trailer is incredible.

So it's so bizarre that you're sitting here right now. It was just an hour ago. I was like, that guy's amazing. I was going to get to Flag Day later, but Sean, get right into Flag Day. Let's talk about it, man. I mean, this, no, I'm serious. I just did. It looks incredible. I know nothing about that story. I know nothing about any, I just literally just an hour ago said that movie looks amazing. I will see that.

That's great to hear. Yeah, it was a script that came to me many years ago based on Jennifer Vogel's memoir, Flim Flam Man. It's a father-daughter story which is led really by the daughter who plays...

Jennifer Vogel and played by my daughter Dylan Penn who really had done you know little parts and things here and there over the years I was she was reluctant to try to pull this one off and then just stepped into it as a truth machine and and gave us something magic so it's a movie I've got several reasons to be excited about my son is also in it Opera Jack that's cool so yeah did

Did you try a long time to get them to work with them? Did it take a lot of convincing? It was, in particular with my daughter, she was of the school thought as a teenager that the work that her parents did was absolutely silly. Dressing up, adults dressing up and playing other people. And it took her time to acquire a respect for the work and for the people who do it.

in that sense. And so, yet she had always been interested in being behind the camera, to be in the film industry.

And so I would go to Dylan every couple of years when this script would appear, when Flag Day would appear, because by appear, I mean the journey it goes on when you can't get the actress you want. In this case, her face was imprinted on that role to me. And so you have to tell those producers, you guys should go on your way and find somebody

else to do this and then it fortunately came back around at a point where she felt she had lived enough life to invest in and understanding it and had spent enough time on sets to kind of get her sea legs in that sense

And then she just came out and rocked it. So it was a long time because she was very reluctant about it. Yeah. How did she gain the respect for what you and Robin do? Did it take her just trying it and going, oh, wow, this feels different than what I thought? I think it was more or less that there's an irreverence that children have for their

parents who aren't doctors, which I understand, of course. And so it's sort of an exaggerated reaction for a time. But then as she started to be moved by the work that people do on both sides of the camera in movies and provoked by it and where she was being

hit by it as she, perhaps at a younger age, was being hit by paintings or music, then it just developed into a more mature sense of it and a more mature embrace of it. What was your relationship to, like, did you identify with that? Because, of course, you grew up and your dad was a filmmaker. So what was that like for you to have...

to have your own kid who had a different relationship to the arts and like you got into it so young and then she kind of went a different path.

Well, I mean, the age I really got into it was when I graduated high school late in my 17th year. But, you know, when we mentioned Little House on the Prairie, that was virtually just to put a couple of pennies in my pocket as an extra. There was no – I didn't have any sense that though my parents were involved in theater and film –

I had no sense that that's the direction that I'd be going. I was spending my time in high school reading the books of F. Lee Bailey about his cases and wanting to be a lawyer, a criminal defense attorney. Wow. Then in senior year, I started getting involved with my younger brother and a group of friends who had gotten a hold of Super 8 Camera with the Magnetic Camera.

sound strip on it so that you could actually make talkies. And so we started making those. And because we were shooting an awful lot at night when other kids were doing homework and you couldn't get them to come out and be your actors, I would be directing those movies and acting in them at a certain point.

I felt so invested in film, but I didn't know what the outlet would be. I knew that to direct, you need somebody to entrust millions of dollars on your back. So I went into a repertory company as an actor and very quickly became impassioned about that and working in class and so on. And the next thing I knew, I was working in the theater regularly

And then from that into film. And after about 10 years of that, 11 years of that, I finally got to do what I'd started out with the intention to do at stage 17, which was to direct my first film.

That's so cool. You know, I just watched the Val Kilmer documentary. I don't know if you've seen that. Yes, I have seen it. Yeah, it's really, really great. And he just seems like such a great guy, such a trooper. But there's footage of you backstage in New York. And you're all so young. And it was this mind-blowing, you know, because a lot of people think, oh, you just come out of the womb and all of a sudden you're a movie star. But, you know, people have no context about what it takes to,

achieve what you've achieved. And to see that footage of you just as a kid, just... I don't know what the play was, but it was so cool to see, A, that he had that footage, and then B, to see that you all were just hanging out like regular people backstage. It was super cool. Yeah, I remembered that Val had, you know, this...

uh video camera which was i think a fairly novel thing at that at that yeah you were like is that a video camera wow you were blown away by that yeah and he was sorry tracy in wisconsin a video camera do they know what that is in wisconsin dude no maybe i don't know it's good that you pointed it out it was pretty sci-fi to me and uh and he was consistent with it um

And boy, yes, as Sean said, I mean, what an extraordinarily creative kind of magical guy he developed into over time. Yeah, it's really a film people should see. It's sensational. Yeah, really cool. You know what's funny, Sean, is that you started... Not you, Hayes. Sure, no. I'm going to call you Hayes for the rest of the show, Sean. Sure, that's fine. That makes sense. Yeah, you're going to defer to Sean Penn. But we...

You know, you did all this stuff and you worked as an actor and you did all that stuff and you really kind of, as you said, kind of trying to get to the thing that you would always set out to do, which was to be a director because you wanted to do that. And yet in that time, you also created and had so many memorable performances, which were just kind of in a lot of ways, I'm not putting words in your mouth, but like they were kind of on the road to doing what you wanted to do. And I saw you talking about Fast and Furious

Fast Times recently, and I'm sorry because I'm sure maybe you're tired or maybe you're not tired of talking about it. You know what? I don't care. Yeah, I don't care either. I have to hear and we got to talk about it. I mean, you actually created a whole genre of character. It's like inventing the RBI in baseball. You know, it's like they don't have a stat for a long time. Everybody had a bad guy and blah, blah, blah. And you invented the stoner, which...

to this day is a whole fucking genre from a performance in a supporting, well, now I'd say a starring role because you really took that movie and...

And I remember the first time I saw it, I remember the feeling that it made-- I remember laughing in a way that I hadn't laughed before and thinking like, "Fuck, what a--" And then it wasn't until I was older and going like, "Wait, I didn't even recognize how genius that was until now." Like, fuck me, man. Like, that movie-- Where were you at when that movie came? 'Cause it's obviously a great movie and it's a really good film.

Where were you at at that point in your life when you read that and you were like, all right, Jeff Spicoli is...

I'm going to do this. Like, where were you coming from? And were these people that you knew? Were these, you know? You know, it's funny. There's this thing about adoption. You know, I was, I one time had a conversation with Malcolm Gladwell and he told me that, you know, it took, that the computer mouse existed for 20 years before anybody started using it. And I think that one of the things that happened with that movie, and I'll circle back to where I was at,

I think that the nature of that character was in the ether, that we weren't identifying it yet, but that it was in the ether, which is why it kind of, I think, caught like wildfire once it was on a 40-foot screen. You said, I know that guy. I didn't know there were two of them.

Right. Like I literally, I know that dude. Exactly. And in fact, in my own life at the time, I, you know, it is, you'd have to ask Cameron Crowe if this is the case. I'm sure I did, but I don't remember. My sense reading his book, which I read the book before the, a lot of people don't know that was a book before it was a screenplay. And I read that character and I felt that that was what he wrote and

rhythmically and so on. And there was a guy who lived in my neighborhood who was a very close model for it. And in fact, about a year ago, I was walking up a beach path and a very straight-looking gentleman with his kids and his wife stopped and he said, "Sean, how are you?" And so on and so forth.

And he had to, I said, I'm sorry, I'm not recognizing you. Of course, I hadn't seen him for over 40 years. And it was the fellow that I really modeled the part on. And he had, his speech had become very clear. His eyes were clear. His parenting seemed very clear. And it was really extraordinary. But he doesn't know to this day that it was him that it was.

Oh, that's great. Wow. You didn't tell him in that moment, in that meeting on the trail? That would seem like such a bomb to drop on someone. Your dad is Spicoli. I think I didn't because, you know, the poor guy, the next thing you know, you'd have journalists going over to interview the real Spicoli and bothering him at his house.

Hey, Sean, do you see any parallel between what you really like to do with acting and directing as far as moving people and affecting people with what you do with your philanthropy, with being charitable and... All your activism and... Yeah, does it come from the same place? Yeah.

This is my first shorter question than I had planned. Good for you. By the way, sorry, Sean Penn, before you answer that, we've got to celebrate how short Jason's question was for the first time. Because you guys got enough of that, right? Oh, I wish we had a code so people could get a hoodie or something. You know what I mean? That would be great. Fucking congrats. Congrats, Bateman. Sean, was that enough intelligence in that question? I understood the question, and I'll answer it this way. Okay.

is I'm born in 1960. So if you do the math on that, that moment where we as young as adolescents really, I think, find our lust for film

The kinds of films that were being made at that time, it really was, in my sense, fortunate time to get turned on. There was a lot to fall in love with in film. And also within those films, they all, in their ways, without being polemics or anything, felt very, very purpose-driven. And I think we all strive to be purpose-driven and want a clarity of why we're doing what we're doing when we're doing it. And I suppose...

If there's a parallel, it's simply that. You want to feel productive. You want to feel you're saying something as an actor or as a filmmaker. You're participating in saying something that reflects in a valuable way on the time that you're living in. And I think that that's true with anything that anyone does, stepping out into the development world or emergency response, aid, whatever one wants to call it.

Right now, we're in such an active time on the earth in this way. I think about how, for me, with my very comfortable life, it seems the sky is falling every day. And then when I try to imagine that through Afghani eyes or Haitian eyes, and the list goes on, it's really unimaginable.

And so for me to have purpose in that is to pick up some of the pieces of the sky that are falling and try to get them back in place. Does that come out of anger? Like you should see baby when they run out of almond milk on the set of Ozark. I imagine it's the same sensation, right, Jay? Yeah.

-But I mean, does it come out of-- -It's more rage than anger. -Yes. -I think it's more rage. Does it come out of a sense-- like, do you feel that, like, when you read, like, what's going on and, you know, look, I don't want to-- we're not a political show, we don't talk, but like, you know, what's going on in Afghanistan where it just feels like this vacuum is being created that is just of immense proportions that's just-- that's so fucking scary and real. Are those-- do those moments, does that bolt you up in bed at night and be like, "Fuck, I gotta get there, I gotta do something"?

I don't know if it's that clear. I would say that, yes, there are times where it's alternately... My own involvements are alternately driven by...

What I like to think is an empathy. What I'm certainly aware is a rage, a kind of as hypocritical as anybody who claims themselves a hunter for justice is typically. You know, I confess I'm a bit of a justice freak and there's not an awful lot of it going on right now. But you talk about like you're like, you know, from my comfortable life, like here's the problem.

Everybody expects like, okay, well, if you want to be mad about that stuff and you want to try to make a difference, then you have to be... Your life has to be absolutely impervious to any sort of criticism that you have to live every aspect of your life. And it's like, no, fuck that, man. We're all fucking human beings doing our best. And if we can do well in certain areas...

It doesn't mean that we're perfect in every other fucking area. And I think we stop celebrating what people do when we're so cynical that all we want to do is instead of focusing on what they do, we focus on the shit on their shortcomings. And that is a world that... That's the world that we live in now. And it's a very specific type of cynicism that exists. Yeah, and I hope that it doesn't...

create a self-censorship of activism among people and a self-consciousness about that because we are flawed machines at best. I mean, one of the things when we talk about, it's interesting how this idea of cancel culture has become identified on partisan lines, but we know that with all of the evolution of thought, all of the very powerful ideas and the way the onion is being

you know, appealed back in terms of how we can do better in our world. It's got to be better through a flawed lens if it's going to be legitimate. And on the other side, the self-righteousness that is demanding perfect machines...

is just inevitable hypocrisy because, you know, I can't think of anybody, including myself, who when you get on a high horse about something, there's not something else someone can tear you down equally for. Right, right. And we will be right back. And now, back to the show.

I'm sure you've answered this before, and I apologize for not having heard the answer or remembering it, but it seems like politics would be a natural pull for you and a draw for you. How close have you gotten to seriously considering jumping into that, and does that fluctuate from year to year? No, there was the Irish playwright Brendan Behan once said, he was asked that question. He said, I could never be in politics because I only have but one face.

That's fantastic. I think that, you know, for me, joking aside, that I just recognize that I would have a much more valuable temperament and support of the things that I do, the way that I'm doing it, than I would as a political leader, which I think takes more of a 24-7 approach

focus on unifying in support of things that are going to help people and not have those bouts of rage as often as I do. When was that first time, Sean, when you...

Became, for lack of a better word, enlightened. When you were an actor and just an actor, was there some... What was the event or what was the thing where you're like, wait a minute, I need... This is bigger than me. I need to step out of myself and really grow as a person and start offering myself in that way. Yeah, it's pretty clear to me that it was...

Growing up, my father had been active both in a formal way in the military during World War II and then also informally, socially back stateside. And growing up with a lot of civics discussed at the table,

you know, that was there. And so as I started making my way through this kind of creative life, there's a period of time where you just have find, I found I had just had blinders on for it and really just wanted to understand what acting was about and what I could do as an actor. And then, and moving along through that, then after about a decade of that, my first child was born. And a year after that, two years after that, three years after that,

9-11. And I remember my daughter had a little ribbon in her hair and I took her to a local burger stand. I was grabbing a burger and some fries. And I was just looking at her. This is probably a day or two after the planes and all of that nightmare. And it just really landed on me how much

Their world was going to be, you know, something that we had never imagined before in so many ways. And I think that that kicked into gear. And so by 2002, I made my first trip to Baghdad, repeated that in 2003, the latter trip writing for the San Francisco Chronicle.

And I think that those engagements beginning to travel parts of the world that were both legitimately and illegitimately demonized or people who were and wanting to see, you know, not just what our headlines said here, but what their headlines said, what their people said. And I think all of that kind of carries you away. And then finally, it was in terms of, you know, what led to my organization core, that happened once.

when Katrina hit in New Orleans and I found out by going down there that one wasn't necessarily in authority's way by going down to lend a hand and that in fact the authorities would embrace any hands they could get. And so once I sort of had that, you know, license to practice...

it just kind of snowballed from there. Yeah, that's great. Sean, how do you stay informed? I imagine it goes well beyond New York Times, Washington Post, Guardian, MSNBC, and CNN. Is there...

Is there a group of trusted academics that you have kind of a weekly call with? I mean, to the extent that you can reveal any of this stuff, but you strike me as somebody that has got a level of information and curiosity that we'd all do better to have some of.

Well, I would say to the degree that – to any degree that that is true, it is principally through a network of friends around the world who have a front row seat to how the world works. You know, I often find myself in conversation with –

People who have worked in foreign service and have seen the United States from the perspective of these other countries. And you will find a lot more commonality and thought whether somebody be Republican or Democrat, but that they have traveled in those worlds, worked in those worlds, offered service in those worlds. I think that you get a much fuller picture of what happens because we have just a kind of,

monocultural bent here. I do spend a lot of time watching mainstream news, listening to news on the radio, but I do think that the things that

that are targeted, the things that I can touch, whether, you know, where I have the resources with my organization and so on, and I need to get to the depth of things, then that relies heavily on a network of contacts and all aspects of what it takes to do those things. And you talked about CORE, your organization, they made, it was the documentary, they made Citizen Pen, right, about CORE. Can you talk a little bit about CORE, about like,

what that day-to-day is like for you and what kind of reach you guys are having? Yeah, so, you know, as we know, we had this horrifying earthquake hit again now in the south and in Haiti. Our teams went in yesterday, heavy equipment in today, medical equipment,

you know, coordinating with a lot of other organizations and organizational leads. And, um, it's a very desperate situation. The road that, uh, to get supply in from Port-au-Prince is, uh,

is owned by gangs, and so there's very big security issues getting supply there in any other way than sea or rotary or fixed wing. Is there a functioning government, not as we know it, right? I mean, there's no real infrastructure. Is that one of the main impediments apart from the destruction from the earthquake? Well, here's the thing. In 2010, the earthquake was epicentered in Laogon right outside of Port-au-Prince, and so that pandemic

pancaked all the government ministries. So literally the seat of power collapsed. So there was no one to call because they'd perished. And so most of government was gone. In this case, and it will remain to be seen, you know, what's going to be more functional in this logistical challenge and leadership challenge.

You know, as I'm sure your listeners know, a few weeks ago, the president was violently assassinated in a commando raid on his house. Clearly, the country is very politically unstable. There had been, the last couple of years, a lot of people displaced by criminal activity. Most of that criminal activity in Haiti is paid-for activity, so you have people

you know, young gangsters being exploited by heavyweights who are trying to push political buttons and, and, uh, and, and you get a lot of paid violent activity and kidnapping and so on. So it's a very challenging environment, um,

But made, you know, I think that when any of us that work in Haiti, we, you know, while there have been some in government that have really, you know, been champions and really fought for their country, you really find the hope in Haiti and in the common people. So much is said of their resilience. And it's something that is just so palpable. Like I said in the beginning of this conversation, you know, I think

When I say the idea of what must this world look like through Haitian eyes, it wouldn't look the same to them as it does to us in the sense of hopelessness. They have a hope. They have a real strength of spirit. They'd have to, right? Because the alternative is just collapse. Yeah. Right?

I mean, fuck, man, I'm going to take Sean's question. What do you do for fun, Sean? I was just going to go there. I was being kind of glib, but what do you do for fun? Like, what do you do in a world that, I get it, there's so much, what are the things that do bring you, I know you get a lot of joy and a lot to help out and be so active, but what are the things when you just want to fucking shut it down?

Well, I guess on the static side, I like to write. On the active side, I've always been a surfer and loved surfing. I have done less of it in the last...

couple of years with all that's been going on than at any other time in my life. And even, you know, each morning as I wake up these days, it's like, is this the day I'm going to get back in the water? And turning 61 next week, I had better get back in the water soon. You're going to do it. Listen, we're going to come over. We're going to celebrate. We're going to bring some E. We're going to go back to like year 2000. We're all four of us are going to do E and we're just going to fucking let it all hang out.

Oh, my God. Let her shoulders drop. Both of those things, riding and surfing sound pretty sane and responsible. What's the stupidest shit that you're doing? I mean, like, is it like a bad reality TV show? Is it like driving fast? Is it eating cookies and cake? I mean, like, what's the idiot part of you doing?

Well, I think that, you know, you can watch too much cable news. There's no question about that. Jason. Yeah. Because I think that there's a thing we have called the nervous system that we want to protect. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I literally, so Sean, you need to know. So last week we were out east and we just got back. But last week we were out east and Jason and his wife and the kids came and stayed with us and me and my boys and we,

So Jason and I are both early risers and he would come, he'd come in and like, I'd be making a coffee and taking the dog out and stuff. And Jason would come in like 637. And the first, before he even turns on the coffee machine, he turns on the fucking cable news, which I never do. I stopped a long time ago because it makes me feel bad.

- Yeah, same. - And I was like, "Oh, I gotta protect the way I feel." It's like turning the light on in the room. He turns it on, and it's on all day. And we're out on the East Coast, and it's a beautiful day, let's go to the beach. And he wants to go and do all this stuff, but he needs the soundtrack.

that, that is eating away at his, but it's, it's where it makes you feel bad. It makes me feel good that these incredible journalists from my, my preferences, MSNBC, where these guys are shaping these opinions and articulating them in such a way where it helps a dumb, dumb, like me kind of get it out. And I like the way they take down some of these nincompoops that they're having to work, you know, uh, next to and alongside. And it, it,

releases my valve. We're going to have to bleep that out with the nincompoop. We're going to have to beep it and then everything. Jesus, fuck. What the fuck is this, like the 50s? What are you doing? Sean, back to Will's suggestion of us taking Ian going surfing. Okay, well, let's make it mushrooms. Let's make it mushrooms. Anyway, it's next week on his 64th birthday. Yeah, go ahead. I mean, having played one of the most famous stoners ever in the history of the world, what is like the worst drug trip you've ever been on and what is it?

Well, it's funny. When I played that part, I had never done any drug at all and didn't until after that. But for sure the worst was I had taken a 21-hour drive direct from New York to New Orleans.

Checked into a hotel and thought, okay, it's a good idea to get something to eat before I go to bed. It was about 11 o'clock at night. Make a long story short, I walked into a bar where I got dosed seven hits of liquid acid and went on a 35-hour relentless trip to hell. That's not an experience I'd like to repeat. Worst place to do it, too. What a fucking...

Oh, man. Yeah, that's a place you just can't get out of. You feel like you're broken, that you're never going to come back, right? Yeah, yeah.

Oh, buddy. Have you ever shown up at a place like in that sort of, in that emergency time, like your boots on the ground, you get there and everything, the world's falling apart and then like some local there is like, Spicoli's here, we're okay. Like, you know what I mean? Like, has that ever happened? You ever had a weird moment like in a desperate time? It hasn't. Well, the only, you know, the only place, for example, in Haiti,

Prior to 2010, if they saw movies at all, movie theaters collapsed in 2010, they were interested in the Rambos and action movies. And so you never got any distribution of the films, the kind of films that I'd done. You didn't have a lot of people with laptop computers watching things. It was nothing like that. So I don't have a high visibility at all in Haiti, even today as an actor.

Interesting. The only, I'm going to say, exotic place where I was taken off guard by that kind of recognition was, forgive me not being able to come up with the year, but it was in the week preceding the election called that appointment of Ahmadinejad in Iran. And I'd gone again for the San Francisco Chronicle to write a piece on that election.

And typically when I go to a place that's really new to me, I like to, depending upon what time that airplane lands, I like to get up very early in the morning and just take a long walk to kind of absorb the place. And I had had, and I wrote about this, a kind of sense of Iran as this sort of doom and gloom and chant place, which we'd heard all we'd heard about here in the States before.

And in fact, it was, you know, the people were so hip. They were so aware of American movies. I think the first thing that they talked to me about was 21 Grams, which had the most sex and drugs of any movie I probably ever did. And they were, you know, oh, we love that movie. So that was the most surprising. The people there are...

are extraordinary. Clearly, they have a horror show in leadership, but there are, you know, really extraordinary people in Iran. So, Sean, you turning 61, us kind of right on your heels, if you're like us, or me at least, you know, we're halfway, right? Let's say. I mean, do...

Are you living to 100? Sorry, we've never talked about this. You're living to 100? I'm shooting for it. Fuck. Do you start thinking about, well, all four of us have been very fortunate that we've gotten a lot of things done that we probably wanted to get done. Certainly, Sean, you seem to have done so many great things. Do you think about this second half? Does something jump to the front of your mind? Is something you really want to get done before it's all over?

You know, my wife is a significantly younger woman than I am a man, and she doesn't have much tolerance for me considering that I'm on the second half. So publicly, I don't know what I'll say about that. Sean just looked over his shoulder, by the way. Certainly one wants to, you know...

I guess I measure it trying to be a better dad every day and make sure that on the last day, I have as little shame as possible. Yeah, I get that. Yeah, I get that too. I remember, I don't know, when was the last time you talked about Falcon and the Snowman?

Has it been a minute? It's been a minute, yeah. Yeah. I remember that movie. I loved that movie, man. I was like... I'm 10 years... Like Jason, I'm about 10 years younger than you, and I remember that movie came out. I was about 14, and I was like, fuck, that's so fucking cool. Talk to me a little bit about that, because I remember that was right around... Like, that was...

I forget who directed that film. It was John Schlesinger. Yeah, it was such a sophisticated movie in a way. Like, it was a really, you know, that's a true film as opposed to movie. That's one of those movies that I think I reserve the word. But, I mean, that was a great movie. Can you talk, was that a good experience for you, that movie? Well, John was an extraordinary film director. You know, he had made Midnight Cowboy, Marathon Man, The Day of the Locust, The Day of the Locust.

far from the Madden crowd. I mean, he was, and he was very diverse. He also directed opera, theater. And so I walked into that movie as a gigantic fan. And in the period after making the movie, John and I got along great. We didn't have a good relationship during the making of the film because there was a sort of, I had a real devotion to bringing the character out

very much in line, which would not always be the case, but in that case, very much as close as I could get to who the real guy was. And by that, I mean, you know, physically, vocally, all of it. And John was interested in a more impressionistic view of it. So we kind of... Like butted heads a little bit? Yeah, butted heads a little bit on that.

But that said, you know, to be whatever I was, about 22, 23 years old, and to have the opportunity to work with John Schlesinger and Alan Davio and then my great friend Timothy Hutton on the second thing that we did together, you know, it's a very memorable one. And also Steve Zalian, who wrote the script, who was down there. And we shot most of the film in Mexico City together.

And so even that part of it, being able to spend time in Mexico, which I'd only ever gotten down to Rosarito before with a surfboard and never been down in Mexico City before that. It was quite a great experience. And that was right. Of course, you and Timothy Hutton had done Taps together.

And then this was you guys together. I remember it's always, I've always remembered that, you know, cause there was a lot of press about it back, even way back then that you guys were great friends. And then you guys went and did this film. I don't know. It's just always, I always loved that movie. There's no real question there other than I just love that fucking movie. It's also what I, I do have nostalgia when I hear the David Bowie, Pat Metheny track. Oh yes. This is not America from now on. So good. We'll be right back.

Sean, where do you stand on that? Going back to you having a conversation, a creative negotiation with the director, where do you stand on that, especially now having directed since you went through that situation with Schlesinger? Where do you stand on...

whose character is it? Is it the actor's character or is it the director's character? And how have you found your flexibility adjusting? Bateman, are you trying to start a fight? What are you trying to get him going? But I just, I mean, you know, well, I'll let you answer it. I won't answer my own question. Go ahead. Well, I think it cuts both ways because, you know, in my sense of working in the theater industry,

is that the director's principal job is to wean the actor out of dependence on the director. You've got to at some point let those horses run together once they've got their coordinated interests in line to tell the story.

In film, it's different, but I think that if you're not able to let the actor own that character, then you probably cast the wrong actor. There's variances on that where there are times where a director may understand and be able to push you to another level of the same character.

or to make you revisit some of the choices that you made. But you certainly want the guiding energy on a set is that that actor speaks for that character.

I think as an actor, we're kind of the designated bodyguard of the character we're playing. Yeah, and I mean, you know, the challenge comes with, you know, people who are given a part as opposed to audition for a part. And so you don't really know what that actor is going to do, what the version of that character they're going to be performing until it's about 20 minutes from shooting. You're saying it sucks to work with stars. Yeah.

A lot of directors have to kind of take what they get, and if you're a director like me, that's a good thing because I've got a real light touch with actors. I just assume they're going to give me the best that they can give, and then your job is to see, okay, what version do they want to play of this character, and I've got to help them kind of keep it on the road. Whereas I'll work with some directors where –

all their notes, you get the sense all their notes are coming from a place of, boy, how am I going to get this actor to play the part the way that I've seen it all the way through pre-production, even when I first read the script or developing it with the writer or whatever. And that's just, to me, that's just a false negative that a director will put on an actor because the audience hasn't read the script. They don't have the preconceived notion that director has. And now you're asking the actor to go into areas that they're not instinctually...

driven towards, and it can yield a real clanky thing. So it's great to hear you say that. There's a kind of approach that is a win-in-doubt-do-nothing approach that sometimes...

frames this conversation for me. I once had a conversation with Marlon Brando where he said this great thing, because there have been plenty of times where just notwithstanding being an actor or a director, as a film audience, there are plenty of times where I was so moved by something an actor did, and then going back, I'm watching it again, I'm still so moved, I couldn't find what the actor did. And sometimes, as Marlon said,

when you have good writing, when you have good directing, sometimes the job is not getting in the audience's way, that they will do a lot of the work of how that story is telling itself.

And so all of these approaches, I do think that, you know, directors who deny themselves the ability to be surprised by what their actors bring are doing themselves in the project a disservice. But there are times that, you know, that it goes back and forth, that it's just that you can get a lot of guidance from a good director as well. Do you ever want to go back and do a big fat comedy? Just do one big, stupid, heisty comedy?

Bad comedy. You know, I have not been offered a lot of those. Really? Really? Yeah, I think as I got older, my face became more disturbing and less prone towards comedy. I don't know what it is, but I just haven't... You know, when I've gotten to do a comedy, I've really enjoyed it, and certainly I would...

be as interested in the comedy as I would in anything. Sean Hayes, do you think you'll ever do a comedy? You know, I knew you were going to ask that, so thank you. It just depends. It just depends on what it's about and how deep I can find that guy. You know what, I was just thinking, Sean must be just basking in, because we're asking all these really important questions, and then we keep saying, and then asking Sean, and then Hayes for a moment has these nanoseconds where he's like...

They're asking me and do they know me? And we've been friends for 20 years. Why is he asking? Right. I never get asked those deep questions. But, you know, so Sean Penn, now you've got, like you say, you're 61 and you've got a lot on your plate for a guy who claims that he's in the sort of the second half or whatever. You don't see, there's no kind of,

I mean, I kind of call it BS. You're kind of right in your zone right now, kind of doing it all more than ever. Listener, you got to know, we're looking at this guy right now. This Sean Penn, this guy is pretty smoking, guys. Sean, what's going on? What's the secret? First of all, Bateman wants to know what's the secret. Yeah. Oh,

Are you talking about how I look? Yeah. Yeah. Well, the secret is framing and light. No, no. There's no ring light there. There's nothing. I mean, you look crazy healthy. Are you hanging out with Laird a bunch? I mean, what's going on? No, I wish I was. Getting myself back into a post-COVID fitness has commenced. I've begun that work, but only begun it. What is that? What is that workout for you?

Well, most it starts with running either on the road or on a treadmill. And then once I've got myself, you know, run out, then I'll jump off that treadmill or off the road into a weight workout and

try not to smoke as many cigarettes in the course of that period. And listener, just so you know, he has never not had a cigarette in his hand. I won't admit to smoking. I won't admit to it, but I'm with you. I call it job security for oncologists.

Oh, my God. Don't say that. Wait, Sean, what are you watching right now? Do you enjoy a streaming thing? What do you do? You want anything to do with it, so you listen to music instead? Oh, yeah. I just saw Summer of Soul, which is incredible if anybody hadn't seen it. Yes. It is really incredible. What is that? That's Questlove's movie. Right. I'll see that. Oh, yeah? Yeah, that's amazing. Thrilling. Yeah.

On a filmmaking level and the story, it really was something. I'm anxious for Succession to start back up. Oh, nice. Sure, please.

And I'll blank on things. Oh, I just saw Kate Winslet was just so great in this thing. Mayor of Eastwood. Yes, exactly. Yeah, so I try not to get hooked by these things because I'm pretty susceptible to that addiction probably as anybody, but never got there because I put it off. I didn't see a streaming show until COVID. My wife turned me on to something. What do you think about it as a medium? How do you like it?

Well, I don't like what it's doing to film. I think that there's something, you know, anything that creates more content democratizes the ability to make film

gives us more diversity, being able to see film from all over the world. That's got a great part to it. But like any de facto town square, if it gets too crowded, then nothing's special and it gets to be a lot of sharp elbows. And so I'm very torn about it. I would be less torn about it if...

We in acting and filmmaking stood up to our financial lords and said, you know, you have to preserve exclusive theatrical releases of films if we are to do this other stuff. I would like to see that movement. But there is something as a filmmaker, I think I just –

fell in love with the girl that was, is the cinema, the big dark room. So I don't know that I would want to work as a director to that end, but

But I certainly can get caught up as an audience, and there's some miraculous work that's being done on television. There's no question about it. Bateman, you ruined film, Bateman, and Sean Penn just confirmed it, and I'm with him. And by the way, it should be noted, whatever Sean Penn's opinion is is also my opinion. It should just be noted. I second that. Go ahead, Bateman. I second that.

What about, so the listener, there's a guitar over his right shoulder. Where does music sit for you in this world? Is it a hobby? Is it a passion? Is it your next career? What's it do for you?

It's the passion that I can't do. That's one of my son's guitars. I am a terrible guitar player. If I sang, you'd all be dead. But it is the thing that's the best medicine for me is listening to music. I'm a very music-dependent director in film. Again, going back to that

era that I grew up in, you know, there were the, whether it was The Graduate or Harold Maud or those films that used songs as part of the storytelling or as characters in the story. I have a great affection for that kind of cinema.

And I love working with musicians. I've had some really great collaborations that have been super enriching. Yeah, tell me about working with Eddie Vedder on the last film. I'm such a huge, huge fan of his, and I know you guys are close. What was that like? Well, Ed and I had worked on, well, we'd worked on a couple of films together in the past, but then significantly Into the Wild. And, you know, he really became...

the hitter that put the ball over the fence in the last inning. And we had such a great experience. And so when I started Flag Day, one of my go-to things is I send Ed the script and say, what do you think? It had been from the early stages, my sense that the leading voice of it, of the songs that would play would be female because it's a female-driven story.

But that there was a balance between the father and the daughter where I felt that I could insert male voices at times. And Ed brought Glenn Hansard in, who's a great, you know, did the songs for once. Love that guy. Yeah. Brilliant songwriter. And then it was my daughter who I, because I was listening to so many great female singers and singer-songwriters, and all of the usual suspects, and then a lot of people I was turned on to by others.

But I couldn't find a voice that just seemed harmonious with my daughter's emotional spirit. And then I asked her, and she suggested Cat Power. And so Ed had known her. And so Ed became kind of the – as well as a singer-songwriter on the movie, he became kind of the curator of the song Bank. Okay.

on that thing and worked with all of them. And they've got a record coming out of it, which I'm looking forward to hearing because it's not only the songs that are in the movie, but songs, I suppose, inspired by the story. Did he score it as well? Is he also the composer? No, the composer is my longtime collaborator and friend, Joseph Vitarelli. So he did the instrumentals. But we at times borrowed from

each other's themes and took some pieces of instrumental from the songs and layered it in so that it was kind of a quilt we put together. I can't wait to see it. Yeah, no shit. God, that sounds so cool. I've never been able to describe anything that I've done like that in such an eloquent way that makes people want to listen to it or watch it. Listen, Sean, when was the last time you got in a fist fight? Be real. Be honest. When was the last time?

It's been a long time. Yeah. It's been a long time. It's fifth grade for me. I know you're not asking, but it was fifth grade. Is it really, Jason? And I swung and I missed. Is it fifth grade? Fifth grade, yeah. I extended fifth grade for many years in my own psyche. You swung and you missed is a metaphor for my career. Hey, Sean Penn, uh...

You know, first of all, before we let you go, I have to say thank you for being- You don't need to specify on the Sean, Hayes. You know? Yeah, you're the one who doesn't need to. God, Jesus Christ. I'm so sorry, Penn. Go ahead, Sean. Okay. Hayes, Hayes.

Sean Penn, I have to say, I have to say, thank you for being such an incredible voice and advocate for the LGBTQ community. Your portrayal of Harvey Milk was incredible to me and to millions of people around the world.

So thank you for that, for such an incredible, incredible portrayal of an incredible man. I was very lucky to be able to do that. Yeah, I read for it. I'm still waiting to hear. And then the other thing was when I was a kid, we spell our names the same, S-E-A-N. And all my teachers when I was a kid would be like,

Like they didn't understand it until Fast Times came out. And then people like, I go, you've never heard of Sean Penn? And then, so thank you for allowing me in the Midwest to...

teaching people how to spell how to say my name so appreciate it i feel for you that it was sean penn and that character uh but you know as a guy who grew up with sean connery and james bond yeah yeah and that's the other thing i was like you've never heard of sean connery or sean penn so thank you for that and congratulations to all the educators from illinois thank you for

Not knowing how to say the fucking name Sean. I agree. I was like, how do you guys not know that? What a blistering indictment. Listen, Sean Penn, man, thank you so much for joining us. What an absolute thrill and honor to have you on, man. Let me just say, you all three are such extraordinarily talented guys. And when I heard you were doing a podcast whenever I first heard about it,

um, I thought to myself, I'm going to have to figure out how to use this podcast app. And I still haven't. So this is essentially the first time I got to hear it. And it was, uh, and it's a lot of fun and I'll look forward to listening more and, uh,

watching for you guys on the screen. Super, super great group. Thank you, Sean. I appreciate it. Don't let it slow down anything you're doing, please. Keep doing everything you're doing. Thank you for all that stuff and being a nice North Star for all of us. Fucking trailblazer. Thank you. Thank you. Take care, Sean. Thank you. Thank you very much for coming on, pal. You bet. Bye. My pleasure. Bye.

The laptop drop. Yeah. The laptop drop. Who was the first one that did that? Well, the listener will have to tell us because they'll remember. So what we're describing is when we say goodbye, a lot of people just kind of hang out still. And then we say offline, thank you for me. But a lot of people are now people just starting to actually just close their laptop. He's the third guest we've had who have just,

close they say bye to us and then they just close their laptop because that makes the most sense because he's a director and he's amazing you know because he's smart and he's like it's very telling yeah it's very telling it's like that's the quickest way to shut off the fucking thing if I close I don't have to go and like is the window closed and blah blah blah you know one time I met Sean Penn one other time in my life I forgot to say this to him and he came up to me because he just saw me do some again you can just say Sean

We know that you're not talking about yourself. Go ahead. So he said to me, he comes up to me backstage at this fundraiser thing I did. He goes, you're fucking nuts. And I go, I'm fucking nuts. You're fucking nuts. Then we laughed and we had a good time. And because he saw me do this crazy, it's too long of a story, but I did this promo thing for NBC and I was insane in it. But it was such a great compliment. We laughed about it and he was,

But that's the only other time I met him. He was so kind and sweet and normal. What a great decision not to share that with him when he's on our podcast. I know, I know. Way to save it till when he's gone. Way to go. God, I met him one time. I was out. This is going to be a crazy, a weird-ass crew. You ready for the crew?

I'm hanging at late night, one night at the Chateau Marmont years ago. It's me and Krasinski and Daniel Craig. Hold for applause. Hold for applause. Oh, James Bond. And then Sean was there with a friend. He was at a table. It was like late on a Sunday night. I remember it was after the Super Bowl, weirdly enough. And he said, hey, you guys mind if we join? We're like, no, come on. So we sat down and we had the greatest conversation. And of course, because we just had our conversation, he's so cool and he's so articulate and he's got so many great ideas and thoughts and

cool, you know, his whole approach to everything, perspectives. And then at one point he was talking about, and we were having this conversation, and he said to me, you know, like, look, man, it's like what you do, and like, you know, for you and for me as artists, the two of us as artists, blah, blah, blah. And I'm just nodding along like, uh-huh, uh-huh. And then we're leaving, as we were driving home, Krasinski goes, we're in the car, and he kind of quietly goes...

did fucking Sean Penn just refer to you and him as artists in the same? And I go, yes, dude. Okay? So, yes. So, don't fucking fuck with me. All right? He and I. Again, another story that would have been good to bring up while he's on. I didn't want to. I'll do my story that I should have brought up while he was with us. Let's call him back. I was shooting something on the sidewalk in Manhattan. It was a night shoot. So, it must have been like,

3.30, 4.30 in the morning. It was very, very, very late. Wait, wait, wait. Since when did Hogan family shoot at night? Oh,

Oh, Will. Sorry. So we're on the sidewalk. It's like, I don't know, like West Village or something like that. No cars coming down the street. And all the lights, all the cameras, everything is out on the sidewalk. So if you were driving by, you could see that we're shooting a movie. Obviously, we're right there on the curb. And here comes one lonely little cab, comes ripping down the, and it stops right in front of the set. So he's like six feet from us.

and the back door opens and out walks Sean Penn, and he just gets up. We think, oh, he must live around here. He just gets up, stands out of the cab, looks at the whole shooting crew. There's about 150 of us, and he just holds his arms out, and he goes, New York City, huh? Am I right? Gets back in the cab, hits it. No. Just keep going. Wow. He was basically just saying, like, you guys are shooting a movie. I'm a movie star. It's four in the morning.

How about it? Huh? Is this great or what? It keeps going. We all just thought it was the greatest thing ever. Wait a second. Of all the three stories that should have been told to him, that was the best one by a fucking mile, which makes you so much dumber again. Yeah. Bye, country mile. Bye. He just, oh, I had such a good one. Okay, go ahead. Go ahead. So wait, Jason, are you just saying he pulled- Don't waste it. By the way, don't waste it. No, this is perfect.

Wait, so Jason, are you just saying that he drove up as a fly? He drove right by the set. That's the first three. It's the first time we've had three byes. It's a triple bye. Pass. Smart. Pass. Smart. Pass.

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