Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Hey there, Will Arnett here from SmartList. It's the podcast where Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes, and I interview somebody. Two of us don't know who that person is because one of us has brought on a surprise guest. That's the whole conceit. I wish I could describe it better, but I'm not that smart. So it's SmartList, and it's starting now. Smart.
You never did a guest spot over on the Mork & Mindy, huh? No, but I would have. What was your best guest spot when you were a kid? Knight Rider.
Yeah, of course. Knight Rider just made my year. I was 15, and so I couldn't drive yet. So this was an opportunity not only to guest on the best show in the world, but also drive a Trans Am owned by the Hoffs.
and see how they do all the tricks over there. They had, like, a little guy sitting behind the seat that was, like, looking through this mesh sort of headpiece in the seat. Sure. I loved all the movie magic. I was going to say, you would have made a good computer. You would have been a good... I would have cast you as a computer. I'd still cast you as a computer. Wait, because I know that about you, it was on the other day, not your episode, but Knight Rider, and Scotty and I turned it on, and they did this, like...
super fancy interior shot of the car. And I'm telling you right now, it was disgusting in there. It was like, there was like dust and like wrappers all around it and like all the scratches on it. Like it was not pristine at all. Wow. The onset dresser was not great. 35 years later, you're taking shots at, uh, you know, transpo and picture cars. Great. Yeah.
Great. We'll have the local on your ass by Monday. Hey, guys, I'm so glad that we're here today because we have a guest on our show today.
And we say this a lot, you know, deserves no introduction, but this is just another example of that. This is a person who has won almost every award it's possible to win in, well, you know what? I'll let him tell you about it. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Ricky Gervais. Oh! Oh! Oh, it's a nice shot of the awards in the back. Look at all the awards. Guys, it's not all of them.
it's half of them there's lots of walls I nearly laughed a couple of times when I was waiting what did you win the guitar for? I didn't win that that's just something for the ladies when they're looking at your awards let me play a little tune for you oh god
Oh my word. Look at you. What a joy. What a joy this is. Yeah, it's so nice to meet you. I've never met you. I'm a huge, huge, huge fan. Thank you. How's it going, man? Good, man. You guys don't know each other. No. No. You know, there's one time I saw you standing outside of the Beverly Hills Hotel. Creepy. And there was nobody else. And I was like, oh my God, that's Ricky. I'm
I'm a huge fan. Should I say something? And then I fast forward in my head. If I just go, Hey, Hey Ricky, I'm Sean. And if I didn't know if you know who I was and then you'd be like, Hey, and then it would just end. And so I was like, maybe I should skip that. It's kind of how it's going now. It's kind of what's happening. Yeah.
- Well, you know, one time I was at a Christmas party at Meg Ryan's house. This is decades ago. And Steven Spielberg was in there and I'm talking and I've never met him. And he's like, "Oh my God." And I couldn't believe he knew who I was. We're talking and talking, talking for like two hours. It was awesome. And then I made this huge goodbye. I was like, "Bye Steven. Nice to meet you." I go out to the valet in front of the house and nobody's there, right? And I'm waiting for my car, waiting for my car.
And then Steven Spielberg walks up, and it's just us two. And we already had a massive goodbye. So then I was like, "Hey, how are you?" And it was just awful. It would have been better if he had just said, "Hi, how are you? I'm Steven." In that moment.
Or if he just said, bye, Benjamin. Bye, Benjamin. Ricky, do you remember a few years ago you were walking across the street here in L.A. and I saw you and Jane walking across and I pulled up and I rolled my window down and I sort of said, hey, can I get a picture? And at first you were like, oh, fuck. Yep, how you doing? And then he realized. And you went, don't give me the fucking wave. It's Will. And you actually got out.
We're going to let the guests talk here in a second, but how many times have you guys been in the car and you like honk at somebody and then you pull up alongside them and you know that person? Oh, yeah. Oh, you mean angrily honk? Yeah, sorry. Americans honk just...
If an English person honks, it's like an affront. It's like people get out. What the fuck? But in America, it's just like you honk for anything. Right. Yeah. It's like you've really devalued the honk. Especially in New York. I think you're right. We should take it back.
I think that you're right. Take it right back. So a hunk is like the finger or something. What the fuck are you doing? We should take him out of hunk. Hold on, hold on a second. What about time differences? So you're in England. I'm in L.A., so I'm drinking coffee. Was that ale I just saw? Ale. Is that what you people call it? Yes, forsooth. It was a mead, sire. Look at that. God, that looks good. It's a beer. As opposed to a lager. Mm.
Well, it's an IPA, an Indian Pale Ale. Yes. And what is that, by the way? That came in after I stopped. So what is IPA? Oh, am I the only drinker here now? Well, Sean? No, no, no. Sean is a big drinker. Sean's still up from last night. Yeah, good. So Indian Pale Ale, do you know what that is? I can't be more specific. I mean, there's a three-word description. And...
I don't know of any other drink that's got three words already to really specify what it is. LAUGHTER
But wait a second, though. But wait a second. Indians were not known for making beer when I was last drinking beer. So where did that come from? Sorry, are you saying Indian in the real term, the subcontinent of India in Asia, or what you call Indians, which are Native Americans? Just what you arrogantly called Indians. Yeah.
I just want to say, Ricky, just give Jason enough rope. He's about to hang himself. I'm about to end my career. Leave some slack on it. But I'm assuming the Indian of Indian pale ale means people from India. Yes? Yes, I think so. I think it was probably something equally racist.
in British colonial history. Yeah. So we said, we're having that. We're having that. This is Indian Bailout. It's ours now. It's ours now. Honestly, we've gone into rounds beyond my knowledge of what I'm drinking.
All I know is it's 5% alcohol. It's 6 p.m. That's all I need to know. And do you have a, is this a daily thing about this time that you have an Indian pale ale? Yes, it is. I mean. Are you only good for about 20 minutes? Is this an intervention? Yeah, this is intervention, the podcast. I don't know if you knew that. Come on in, Jane. Jane, come on in. I'm going to jack up in a minute. Is that right?
Oh, that's fine. It's just drinking. We don't mind. Exactly, yeah. So did you just, you know, you're rewarding yourself because you've just probably, probably just popped out of the gym. You've probably in and out. I have. Yeah, have you? Would you? Oh, of course you have. Look at that. He's showing us his guns. And that's all natural. People say to me, hey, you on the juice. I go, fuck you. Fuck you. That's why they think your rage is outrageous.
You know, you do have a build, Rick. You always have. Was there a time in your life when you were a gym rat and you just loved to just blast bys and backs? No.
Blast. Listen. Blast. You must have, because you're not born with pipes like that, are you? No. It's a shame this is only audio, because they can't see me. They can imagine. I'm posing at the moment, and my fake tan is dripping off me. With a guitar and an IPA. Exactly, yeah.
I do work out every day. I try to. It's getting harder and harder. I probably shouldn't be because everything is absolutely fucked on me now. I've got two sprained ankles, which is terrible. I still run on. I have terrible knees. I can't bend without them cricking. I've got a bad back.
My shoulders are fucked. I've got tennis elbow. Yeah, I'm absolutely, but I refuse to stop doing anything. Mostly from street fighting. Is that right? Because I heard. Yeah. I'm like, yeah. Hand to hand.
Yeah, I'm punch drunk. But how old are you? 59. Yeah, I'm about to be 52 and everything hurts a little bit. Fuck off, you're older than me. No. How dare you? This hair is real. Look at this. I've had no work. I don't have two body waxes a day. Wait a second. And fucking Botox, you twit.
I'm on swim team. I can't have any hair on my body. You're only, he's only 52. Is he telling the truth, Will? No, I won't be 52 till January. Christ. He won't turn to the side because then you'll see the scotch tape and all the rubber bands and stuff. But from the front, he looks amazing. From the front. Ricky, do you have a place in LA or do you only live in England? I've got a place in New York. I've had it for a while, actually. But I'm
Especially this year. I've spent most of my time in Leafy Hampstead. Will's been here. It's beautiful. It's a great spot and you live next to the vicar. I do, yeah. Who's that? It's just a vicar. He said the vicar. But it's a vicar. There's thousands. I live next to one of them. What's a vicar?
A vicar? Yeah. You don't know what a vicar is? Uh-oh. Allow Ricky to relieve you of your ignorance. Go ahead, Ricky. A vicar? It's a deep list. Like a preacher. Like a preacher. Like a local priest. Yeah. So you live next to a priest? A vicar, yeah. It's true. You live next to a priest's house?
Listen, this podcast is, I mean, it's like I'm teaching you lot English. I say a sentence and then I have to explain it. I mean, we spent three minutes on what's Indian pale ale. It's not that important. What's a vicar? Fucking hell.
Listen, you've spent time with Bateman before, for Christ's sake. You know what you're getting into. I have. I couldn't believe my luck. I was a huge fan of Teen Wolf. Sure. Two. Two? Oh, I haven't seen two. No. You're not. Oh. Can I ask you something?
Can I, so, so can I tell you, so the first time, Ricky, that I became aware of you was from watching The Office and Janine Garofalo had videotapes at the time of The Office and she brought them back and she gave them to Amy and me and we watched them. We were about to start Arrested Development.
And Jason and I started watching both obsessively. And we were just absolutely obsessed with The Office. And we just thought we'd never seen anything like it. It was just brilliant. And I remember about you were coming to LA for maybe the Golden Globes or something. And we're
We met briefly and we exchanged numbers and you were going to come to the set of Arrested Development, you remember? And I remember saying to the set PA, I said, can I get a drive on at the lot? And she said, yeah, give me the name. And I said, Ricky Gervais. And you weren't yet a household name in this country. I'm still not. And she said, well, and she said, what is it? I said, Ricky, can you spell it for me? And I actually stopped her and I said, I want you to remember this moment.
of you not knowing this name because you're going to be really embarrassed when you look back at it.
And she was like, okay, whatever. And you came. And that was our first experience. And we were just... Jason, do you remember how blown away we were? We couldn't... I couldn't get enough of that show. And I still... It's uncomfortable for me to even talk to Ricky. I'm a little starstruck. It was... Oh, I ended up getting enough of it. I ended up getting enough of it. But you... That was at the very beginning of the show. That and Jeffrey Tambor shaped...
at least for me, the whole comedic tone of Arrested Development. 100%. I kind of knew that there was that kind of funny, but I'd never seen it executed so consistently, and that was just sort of my North Star, what I was trying to, you know, point towards. It was a weird way to say this, but it was liberating to watch you in that show. It really was. It opened up a whole other... For me, anyway, it felt like it opened up a whole other way, like, oh, okay, this...
this is a possibility to go there. If he's not acting well, we can all get away with it. Then I can do it. Yeah, I mean... If he's just mumbling and not looking... Yeah, he makes me look like a genius. I mean... The comedy of discomfort and awkward pauses and loss of dignity with just sort of a look or a moment as opposed to jokes or anything like that, and that the length of those episodes allowed for that kind of editorial pace, too, is something that...
We sort of tried for it. I don't think we could with our format, but... Well, I think it was lucky the format allowed me to do that with a fake documentary because I was emulating something. I was trying to emulate a very ordinary man who wanted to be famous. So it was sort of... It was easy to not be a trained actor doing that. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, of course. But what was the genesis? We've never really... I'm sure you've had to explain it before. It was an impression I used to do of like...
bosses and stuff. I worked in an office for like 10 years. So it was like a Frankenstein of people I'd met growing up. And you suddenly, and I was always, I was always the idiot. I was always trying to make people laugh. And, you know, I was that guy. I was sort of that guy without ambition or rather without, without nerve.
I think I'd lost my nerve. I'd just been a failed musician after like five years of trying. I got a normal job and then I worked my way up to sort of middle management in an office like that. In fact, the little pre-pilot that we shot, I went back to the office I used to work in and I used mates as extras. And I just ad-libbed around this character showing off to the camera. And the seed of that was...
we had 10 years of these quaint docu-soaps in the 90s on British TV. The new big thing was docu-soaps. We had one called Airport. We had one called Hotel. We had one called Liner. And it was just normal people filmed and they'd become sort of stars for 10 minutes.
And of course, nowadays, they become stars forever and make millions. But then it was, that was their 15 minutes of fame. And, you know, you wheel them out. So it was ordinary people wanting to be famous. And was it the same type of format? Would they address camera? Would there be testimonials and things like that? Yeah, there was usually...
and narration as well. But we didn't do that. But there was often, it was things like the cement for the swimming pool is late and they have to open in an hour. It was stuff like that. Right. Well,
Right. Was it sort of a Michael Apted? Was it inspired by the Up series at all, do you think? Well, that's the greatest. That's incredible. I mean, that's still going. Yeah. Yeah. But that really is beautiful social commentary. Sure.
these got watered down, you know, and then people would be doing them because they think, well, I can be famous. Everyone says, I'm a laugh. I'll go on there. And it's like, there was suddenly too much, you know? So then it was people trying to be famous. And so that's what I picked up on with Brent that,
He was a bit sad. He was forgotten. And he thought, now's my chance. And if it wasn't a fake documentary, it wouldn't work. Yeah. Because once you know why David Brent is acting like that, it's...
It's so tangible. It's so great that he just wants to be loved and famous. And it's heartbreaking in a hilarious way, yeah. I think that one of the things that I... Certainly, I personally really connect with what you do is... Is it that desperation? So many of your characters have this...
sort of misplaced or just they're so desperate for whatever it is. It's so funny. It's so funny and sad at the same time that I think the funniest characters and obviously in real life, you know, the documentary aspect of it, we like real life is the most dramatic and the funniest. Comedy and fiction can only try to emulate all those things in real life. So,
But someone trying to be funny and is successful isn't as funny as someone who doesn't want to be funny and wants to be taken seriously. So my favourite characters were those people that demanded being taken seriously. So it undermines everything. Someone being pretentious and then slipping on a banana skin is funnier than a clown slipping on a banana skin because we know the clown doesn't care. He wants to slip on it. So I think when someone wants to be taken seriously or says things like, I am a comedian,
That's funny. I remember getting a letter soon after the office, right, by someone writing to get a part. And the letter started, Dear Mr. Gervais, I am a brilliant actor. And I thought it was... Signed, Sean. Oh, so you got it. You got it. Because I still haven't heard, so I don't know if you got it.
Yeah, desperation's funny. Anger's funny. People with no sense of humor is funny. People with no sense of humor is funny. One of the things I think is so admirable about you, and there's no question here, so don't feel the need to respond, because I know your humility will keep you from doing that, but all the vulnerability that you put into David Brent and many other characters that you play is really the root of the comedy.
the man is so broken and a mess inside that that is what I find so heartbreakingly hilarious about it. Yet on your stand-up, it is almost the polar opposite of that in that there's so much confidence and judgment is sort of the character that you play. And you can still get equal laughs with that. So the fact that you're able to make people, you know, double over... Well, that's very interesting because...
I don't think you need, standup's slightly different. Standup is slightly different to fiction in the sense that when you do a sitcom or a film or whatever, you do your best and you try and make the plot work and the characters work and you do all that.
And then you put it out there and there's nothing you can do about it. With stand-up, you do it every night and the audience... It's more like evolution by natural selection because they choose the bits for you. It's more like a science because it either works or it doesn't. And by the end, you've got a perfect thing that works every night to everyone around the world because it's tried and tested. They've chosen it for you. So that's slightly different. So what you don't want with stand-up is an audience to feel sorry for you because...
You haven't got time. You don't want that. No, you don't want that. No, because it's the purest, it's like the purest, sorry, because it's the purest, because jokes are more of an intellectual pursuit. You don't really need a context for joke, again, because they work or they don't. A joke can sort of work on the page. You can read a joke and it still works. You don't need someone telling it. Obviously, you add to that. I think my favorite stand-ups do add to that. They've got a context. They build character. They've got props.
Yeah. Props in a bag. Sure. Those are your favorite snaps. You love a prop comic. Be honest. You are being humble here. What I'm trying to say is that the comedic flavor, right, your comedy comes from vulnerability, let's say, in David Brent, but with the stand-up, it comes from sort of this
feigned, brash arrogance. And that you're able to do both so well, I find just incredible. Well, that's just because it's another character and you commit to it. And that evolves as well. But you can't just write a bunch of jokes and anybody can say them and they're going to get the same laugh. No, but you can because like, by the time humanity came around, I'd sort of hit that sweet spot.
where the audience had known me for 15 years. So they knew what I was doing. They knew the irony. They understood the nuance without me having to explain it. So I could come out and hit the ground running. The important thing is this. Behind the scenes, right, I think with particularly stand-up, is traditionally it's a low status thing. We're a court jester. We go out there with the other peasants and we tease the king.
Okay. And everyone knows what comedians earn these days. So I can't really go out there and pretend to be struggling. Right. I think that would be, that would be nauseating and dishonest. I would like to see you try though. Yeah. So I keep my low status in two ways. One, I invite them behind the curtain. I say, what you think it's, you think it's plain sailing, do you being rich, but well, look what happened to me when I met so-and-so or first time I took a private jet, they thought I was the cook. So I do all that. Right.
And the other way I do it is I talk about things where I'm worse off than them. I talk about being fat and old and in pain and going bald. And do you know what I mean? And being hated by the press. I don't know what you mean. I don't know what you mean. But let me, do you think, I mean, Ricky, you started, you started as a stand, you were doing standup before, right? You, you, you'd been doing standup off and on. Yeah. For years.
No, I started before The Office, but I only started in about 1999, I'd say, was my first try. And then you started doing that in 99, then The Office hits. And then over the last 10 years or 15 years, as you've grown and done more and more stand up, you kind of you build that currency, right, with your audience, like that, that's the thing, you build the momentum of that sort of
that you have. Yeah, I have to go out there and I want to be the one that says the wrong thing. Whatever the current regime is, I have to say the wrong thing. I have to go against the grain, which is why it was hard for the last sort of few years. You know, I,
I didn't realize half the people would agree with those things on face value. So irony was put in danger recently. I remember going to that small little theater. You were working stuff out. I remember a couple of years ago, I came up there. Yeah. And you were working out jokes in the audience. And I remember you...
first of all, the relationship was they knew you. They came because they were huge fans. You had a limited number of seats. It was basically free, but you were working stuff out. And the relationship was, hey, I'm trying stuff. And some stuff was...
you know, over the line for them or whatever, but you're figuring out. Well, that's the thing, you know, you do have to find the funny, but you have to go for it and you have to be able to play. And that's the problem again with today as well, because I've done shows that I'm trying stuff out and it's been reviewed. And I'm going to go, well, that's mad.
You can't do that. You can't do someone who's just started a painting going, it's rubbish. I haven't done it yet. I've just done the back. You know, it's crazy. So you have to fight against that. And I try and keep politics, explicit politics, out of comedy because I think if you're relying on the audience agreeing with you and getting a round of applause, it loses something comedically. I want my jokes to be liked. I don't care whether they're right wing or left wing or whatever, right? Because the joke either works or it doesn't.
and it actually shouldn't matter it's meaningless anyway nowadays left and right wing it's a meaningless term but I think it's important that you evolve but not with those reasons you don't evolve because it might be taken the wrong way you don't evolve because you might be bullied by a reviewer you don't evolve because
because you want everyone to like it. That gets you nowhere. When did that happen for you? Because that's a certain fearlessness that I think you have to achieve. You can't...
I'm sure there was part of you when you were much younger that you didn't have that, right? - I've probably got more fear now, but you have to fight it. You have to know that art is being brave. It is being brave and putting out there. - 'Cause you've got more to lose now, right? - Well, it just makes me angry. It makes me angry if people don't get something. So that makes me work harder to still get the same joke out there and everyone like it and be able to defend it and sleep at night, which I always have done.
There's this myth that I go out there and I say what I want and I don't care about what people think of me. That's just not true. It's a hell of a challenge to... I do love it when you do say at the end of it, I don't care. Yeah, of course. I love that. And that's marketing. Right, yeah. And you have to be militant about it. You have to act like you don't care. Right.
But actually, you know, it annoys me when any sort of someone thinks that you've done this or you've gone too far. I want to go, well, I've worked that joke for a year with like hundreds of thousands of people. You've thought about it for three seconds.
And you've got it wrong. I think because reviews now are so fast and people don't think there's no nuance on social media. Like 10 years ago, like 20 years ago, if someone complained about something, it would make me think I'd go, oh God, you know, really? Now someone says I'm offended. I go, yeah, of course you are. Everyone is. It doesn't matter. Yeah, I brought this up before that you have that great tweet that's been shared many,
Millions of times, I think, now would you say, just because you're offended doesn't mean you're right. I know. People even understand that and they still fall for it. They still think, no, this is different. I did a tweet when I was doing the warm-up for this new show. I said, guys, are there any things I should never joke about? And of course...
Everything people said was funny. Everything people said was funny. This disease, this things. One person said losing two children, which I thought was just an amazing thing to tweet. Just an amazing thing. As opposed to one? Yeah. So specific.
So specific. It's sadder than one, but funnier than three. I mean, that's a definite for sure. I remember I said something similar years ago on Twitter, but something along the lines like, apropos of nothing, like, I hope you're not offended. And all these people immediately got on me. A few people sort of saying like, well, what is it you're talking about? They were pre-offended. Yeah. And I hadn't even said anything. Yeah, yeah.
Of course. Yeah, so you're right. It's watered it down. Who gives a shit? Because it amplifies it. You know, Twitter is like reading every toilet wall in the world, okay? And when you look at it like that, you shouldn't ever be offended by anything on Twitter. But it also depends on the messenger. Like, I think you are a messenger of that. Like you said, like...
it's all branding and marketing, that's who you are. It's kind of like Don Rickles, who I thought was always hilarious. He was so offensive to everybody he met, but because it was Don, it was almost okay. But if it's somebody else trying, it's not going to work. Well, that's the other thing as well. It's like I'm offended when a comedian says sorry. Right. Because it usually means they've got a film coming out or something. Yeah.
The last big venue stand-up I went to was you at the Hollywood Highland, I don't know how many years ago. That business of big venue for stand-ups. Ricky would text me from time to time on his way to an arena, just like, God, 18,000 tonight, I don't even know.
I don't even know if it's a big number. Sorry, I've got to go. Lost perspective. 18,000 people are waiting. Sorry, I've got to dash. Wait, Ricky, can I ask you something? Because I don't know if I'm... I hope I get to see you again. I just... So far, it's not looking great. It's not looking good. I think you're brilliant. But, you know, I always wanted to ask you, like,
I always find it interesting, you and I share several things in common. Like, I started out really early wanting to be a pop star like you, but you kind of succeeded with an album and everything, and we're both gay, right? I don't think he was ready for that. I don't think he was ready for that. That's not this podcast. This episode is about to go huge. We've both slept with Bateman. We're guys. And live to tell about it. Not this podcast.
Um, no, but... Can I go and get a beer? Oh. Yeah, go get a beer. Hang on. Let him go get a beer. Okay, good. Hi, guys. Hi. JB, what happened to your hand? Oh, I was pulling my golf bag out of the backseat of my Tesla. Oh, God! Is that... Wait, is all of that true so far? And I sprained the tip of my ring finger.
Yes. Well, I'm glad you got your ale. So maybe we can get back to my question about music. I'm sorry. So listen. Jesus, Sean. Keep us on the rails, Sean. I'm actually interested just because I find it interesting that you were also very seriously, like I've seen those music videos, and I just thought it was interesting that you pursued that. And were you all in on that and then it didn't work out? Or were you pursuing that and acting at the same time or whatever made you famous? Yes.
And then you had to be convinced it didn't work out. Yeah, all in. But in retrospect, did it all wrong. I was in a band. Because I loved those songs, by the way. Thank you. It was very fast. It came and went very, very quickly. And I think you only know about it now because I'm famous for something else. And those pictures and videos pop up on Jimmy Fallon. So like anyone else in every generation, I think it was... Yeah, I found it fascinating because I was...
pursuing the same thing. And I also then went into comedy. Well, okay, so it started at college and we did a demo tape and we got signed and we did two singles and then we were dropped. And it was like, it started and finished within a year. And that was it. Oh, wow. You know, I think even if it had been a success then in 1984, whatever it was, it would still have been over quickly. But there are some bands that were good back then that are still around. And would you and Rick Astley have done a duet? Do you think you and Rick would have...
Or Wham! It would have certainly been, you know, we started with the sort of the hair and makeup and synth pop. But this is the mistake I made. The mistake I made was I wanted to be a pop star and I should have wanted to be a musician. Uh-huh.
And when I started doing this, I realised that I consciously and militantly called myself a writer-director. So people didn't think that I just wanted to be on telly because I didn't. And I came to it very wary. I came to this very, very wary, not because of the music thing, but because of, I think, the press in England and...
I never revere famous. I've never asked for an autograph. I've never been impressed by seeing a famous person. And I thought that of myself. I thought the people I admire, I admire because they've done something absolutely brilliant. My heroes are like scientists and things like that. And Andrew Ridgely. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
So I feared fame. I didn't sign that deal with the devil, make me famous and you can go through my bins. In fact, I probably feared it too much. I was probably too minute that now I'm sort of chilled and it's fine. But don't you think people that have fame wanted it?
To a certain degree, yeah. But the other thing is, it's a bit ambiguous when you're an actor, isn't it? Because I think you're allowed to really want to be an actor because it's fun and it's great and it's interesting and it's better than most jobs. Without saying, I want to be famous. I think it can be... Because if you're a successful actor, you're probably a famous actor. Right.
Thank you. And certainly there was easier routes to being an actor than actually writing and directing a sitcom for three years. There's easier routes. In fact, it annoyed me once when the office broke and it seemed like I was just famous overnight without all the work. Someone on the red carpet said to me, what advice would you give anyone else who wants to be famous like you? And I said, go out and kill a prostitute. LAUGHTER
And they looked at me like I was mental. It just really annoyed me. Like that, like there's such easier ways to be famous than actually writing a sitcom from scratch. You know what I mean? Uh-huh.
Do offers come to you and you kind of flirt with that? Or do you only create your own things and only want to create your own? I think the offers have dried up because it's been no for like 10 years that I've usually been busy. And you start off in your flat. I remember, I think the second episode of The Office had gone out in like 2001. And my agent got a call from a studio making this movie. And they sent me the script. And I said, what part am I? And they said, the lead.
And I said, it says here he's 26, right? And I was 39 at the time, sort of 40. And they went, we can change that. And I thought, okay. And I said, I think you need, I said, who's going to go and see this? No one knows me. And they went quiet. And I went, you need John Cusack.
for this and they sort of went okay well thanks for the call and in my head I was oozing integrity and they were going what a guy but actually they probably went what a fucking idiot who do you think he is turning down a lead movie he's not going to get away no
Um, that's interesting. And so, and so it was no, because I was busy. It was no all the way. The first one that I said yes to, cause I read it. The first one I read actually, um, Jane would read them and say, no, no, no. And the first one I did that I, I thought if I don't do this, I'll never do one was ghost town. Um,
And it just, I was reading it and I was laughing. I thought, this is me. Yeah, I loved it. This is written for me. And so I did it and I loved it. But it still doesn't feel like mine. The things, I've done loads of things. I've popped up in things. I've done the Golden Globes. I've done this and that.
But if I say, what have you done? I'd list, you know, three or four sitcoms, a couple of movies and my stand up. That's what I'd say was mine. Right, right. Do you know what I mean? Is Jane your filter of pretty much like is she your go to barometer of everything? Yeah, now I don't even I say no to everything because I'm sort of busy. But when I'm working stuff out, yeah, I run things by a...
if I go for a run and I've got an idea for a routine, I come back and I say, what do you think of this? And she says, please don't do that. And I know it's, I know it's good. I know. I love how many times we've, we've been fucking around or having dinner or whatever. And how many times Jane has said, you guys have to keep your voice down. Shut the window. Shut the window. Shut the window.
I have one more question about The Office. So it was an incredible success on its own. And then when it got brought here to America, another incredible success in Feathering Your Cap with that. Was it comfortable or uncomfortable to watch it take its, I don't know, necessary or unnecessary, slight comedic tone shift?
to an American pacing and whatnot. You've got to think that it's not your baby. You think that, you know... Ricky, just including that, because I'm sort of going off what Jason's saying, it was such a huge shift. When you see...
changed the way, certainly in this country, people started making comedies. For sure, there was such a direct effect. I remember watching somebody who created a very famous, successful sitcom here saying, you know, and then we decided in the pilot, why not have the characters talk to the camera? And I thought, shut up.
Well, the thing is, I didn't invent the genre. In fact, my biggest influence, I think, writing it, that was someone else's work, was Spinal Tap, which is a fake documentary. That's just... I mean, no-one owns fake documentary. I suppose what was different, slightly different about it, was that it was... We left the boring bits in. Like, David Brent made bad jokes and no-one laughed. I wanted that... I want to explore that gap, that social...
Because that's the worst thing for me. I don't get embarrassed, but I get embarrassed for other people. If we're in a group and someone makes a bad joke and no one laughs, I just want to go back in time and go, right, do it like this. Let's do this again. And Ricky, what you guys did so well on the show, and I remember this kind of reminds me of when Mitch Hurwitz was putting together the pilot of Arrested. What you've done so well is
Anyone listening, Arrested is short for Arrested Development. It's a TV show. He just... He leaves off the last word. It's just... We haven't got... There's limited time. If we... I worked out that if we said Arrested Development every time, it'd be three months of our life. Great, now we've got to go cut that out. But you...
By the way, Ricky has called me on that like out loud in a restaurant. Arrested development. But what you did such a great job is when you put that show together, you recognized you'd have David Brent do the worst joke or do something super embarrassing. And then you always made sure to anchor that by looking at the reactions of the people around him. You whip hand or whatever. And that's what happened. I remember with Arrested. Hang on.
But that Mitch said that when he's putting the pilot together of Arrested Development, that he had, he was like, it's not working. And he realized that he needed to have all these crazy characters do stuff and he needed to see Jason's reaction to it because that put it in the context. Well, that to me is the comedy. Someone doing something weird is one part of it, but it's how does it fall? What's the fallout?
of it. That's what's always interesting to me. And again, I learned that from Laurel and Hardy. So Stan doing something stupid was funny, but it affecting Ollie was the joke for me. That's what comedy, some comedy didn't have before that. There was no fallout. No one got hurt in the wake.
of someone doing something ridiculous. Like people would be acting and they'd be saying stupid things, but they'd be acting like it's something normal. And so you have to react to that. People... Yeah, there's nothing weird about Martians on Mars. You put a Martian on Earth, that's interesting. Well, that's another very good point because that's why...
Again, David Brent was the boss. And so he shouldn't have been acting like that. He should have been the grown-up, but he was acting like the child. So again, the big thing there was men as boys and women as adults, which again, I think is reflective. But again, Laurel and Hardy did that.
the Lauren Hardy, they were children and their wives had to catch them doing naughty things. Who was it that said steal from the best? And I certainly have in, you know, Lauren Hardy and Chris Guest and those guys. So Ricky, what, what are you, because I'm like, this is going to be over and then he'll never talk to you again. And we're going to go there. And in my mind, you go off and you start writing and creating and doing all of these things. But
what is the reality? Like, what does your days consist of? What do you, what do you do? Like, what will you do tonight? I'll, uh, I'll go and watch, um, Arrested. Arrested. Uh, a Scandi Noir serial killer or spy thriller on Netflix or Amazon Prime or Walter Presents or BBC Four. I want European or, uh,
Middle Eastern or South American drama. I've just found, I've just found now that with all these subscriptions, I can find the best dramas in the world. Why don't you be in one? Yeah. Because I can't, I can't speak any languages. And also. What about English? I see my favorite thing, right? This scanty drama is like series three and suddenly an Englishman or an American pops up and I go, oh, fucking hell. Yeah. They just, they just ruin it. Yeah.
They just fucking ruin it. Have you watched L'Engrenage, otherwise known as Spiral, that French cop show? It might be one of the best programs ever. Me too. It's amazing. Another one as well. There's only one thing that might even be better than that.
And that's the Bureau. Have you seen it? Of course. It's incredible. It's incredible. There's a great Belgian show as well called The Break. Have you seen it? Amazing. Have you seen? Oh, the 12th. Another Belgian thing. The 12th. The 12th. Oh, my God. Wait, have you guys seen Quincy? Yeah, and what about Chicago Fire, guys? These guys. Jason spends all his time trying to figure out how IPA is made, so he doesn't have time to watch.
Well, that's... So, okay, to quickly answer, I get up, I have a coffee, breakfast, we go for a long walk, which is habit now. We get that where we used to do that when we were allowed to go out one hour in lockdown. With dogs, cats? I know you have pickle. You don't walk a cat, you stupid ass. Well, our cat died at the beginning of lockdown. We just got a new one. Oh, you see what you've done, Sean? Where'd it go, Sean? You fucking dick. Go on, sorry. So you're walking the cats. No, we go for a walk to...
I go for a walk, an hour's walk. I scruffle dogs. Ricky, why don't you and Jane have a dog? Because I know you love dogs. But why are you guys more, are you consider yourself cat people? Or why don't you have a dog? No, I absolutely love dogs. I love all animals. I think to me, all animals are unconditionally perfect in view of them. The only animal that I think you can ethically keep is a pet, a domesticated animal. But I love all animals. But the reason I have a dog is we
We travel too much. And a cat, you can have a cat sitter. It doesn't care. Okay? A dog, I can't stand the dog. The dog doesn't understand. They have an emotional intelligence beyond some people. I can't bear that I have to travel so often with a dog. So wait, then what happens with the cat? The cat just stays home? You leave out a big, big bowl of milk and come back? No, we have people look after it, don't we, you fool? Yeah.
Like the Flintstones. Yeah. So your guess is that cats are so emotionally stable and secure that you can go travel around doing all your shows for a couple of weeks and they're good. But a dog, your guess is that they're just emotional basket cases and they need you there a little bit more often than once every couple of weeks? Well, it's based on knowledge. No. Science.
Science. Science. Because of all the interviews they've done with the cats and the dogs? Yeah. Is Jane a dog or a cat? Jane's a woman. Oh. No, I'm kidding. Is she...
Is she like the independent, like you can go away and I don't need to see you? Or is she a dog where she's like, I'm going to miss you. I need you back. Oh, I see. Oh, I see. Yeah, I was trying to elevate that. Jane's got some sexy indifference, like a cat, right? It's like she doesn't really need you. She's all fine by herself, you know, right? No. No.
Jane, Jane, Jane. I'd like to, I'd like to think Jane needs me. Wait, wait, wait. Can you get through that one more time without laughing? That would be great. We're still rolling. She needs you. And then don't let, she does need you. And, and, and you could bring the dog, you know, cause you, you, uh, you're only gone a couple, a night here, a night there. Cause you've got to go and do these arenas and, and God, God bless you. And I feel the same way. I need to do arenas too, but, um,
So let me ask you this. So what do you think? You've been at home. You've been working on, I know you're working on Series 3. I'm working on my body now. That's why you can't see my hands. Oh, he's doing leg lifts. He's doing leg lifts under the table. Uh-huh.
But you've written series three of Afterlife. Yeah. I mean, I did that quite quickly. Yeah. And series three is season three. Season three, yeah. Sorry, we're European. And that's ready before sort of workshopping and all that. And I've basically cast it in my head and that's ready to go. We're filming in April. So I feel like I've got to fill the gap. I can't do gigs at the moment. Again, that's ready to go. In fact...
All my gigs this year have been postponed until next year, so I do that after I film, so that's ready to go. What about the jokes in that that might be topical that are not going to work next year? Or you just kind of update those? Well, luckily, when you're still doing stuff about, you know, Hitler and famine, AIDS, it's pretty fucking timeless. Evergreens, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good for you. We'll always...
Luckily, we'll always have killer diseases and fascism. Yeah. So... Keep this going. How do you think that looks? So you're ready to go back on the road. You've been working on your stand-up sort of non-stop and refining it. I will have to change it slightly. I will have to... I think depending on what happens because I think if a vaccine comes in and it...
I think people would want to forget it. And so it wouldn't be timeless. And if I was doing it now, I'd start with it. In fact, I did a couple of little warm-ups when we were doing social distance gigs. And I started off by going, it's great to be gigging. I haven't gigged this year. The last normal time was Christmas, wasn't it? That was the last time with friends and family. And we didn't have a traditional Christmas. You've got to move with the times. We might be cultural. We had bats.
We had a load of bats. Oh, you ate bats. So I started off. Oh, shit. We should talk. Ricky, who makes you laugh? I know you get asked this a lot. It is like one of those standard questions, but fuck it. Who makes you laugh? Well, you do. You know that. Well done. Well, present company excluded. Present company. We got what we wanted. All right.
print oh you have to you have to categorize it you have to categorize I mean are there people who the way that they Larry David yeah I think I think Larry David is underrated I know he did the biggest sitcom of our generation but
I think Curb Enthusiasm, 10 series of Curb Enthusiasm. And the quality just hasn't changed. And he's remarkable and he's brave and he's funny and he's a great performer. He's fearless. You guys are very similar that way. Self-effacing too. Yeah, I think he's the all-round comedic creator of the past 25 years. And Chris Guest, it sounds like Chris Guest you like a lot too, yeah?
Chris Guest, probably the biggest single influence on me is both his style, a friend and a mentor because I knew no one in the industry. And when the office went out, Chris Guest called me. He said his wife had seen it and said, you've got to watch this. And he loved it. And I could see why. He must have seen his influence in it. But he called me up and just said, I don't want to say it. And I was blown away, of course. And then we became friends. And then I'd call him when I wanted advice. I remember...
an early film I did, they wanted to do one of those screenings where 40 people give you notes. And I said, I don't want to do it. And he said, why would you? He said, if you're letting them edit it next time, why don't you write it with them? And I just thought that was such a lovely...
And then he told me a story that the director of Rain Man did one of those things. And his favourite comment was, I enjoyed the film, but I was disappointed that the little guy didn't snap out of it by the end. LAUGHTER
And so he'd given me those little nuggets to fear TV by committee. And he's just lovely and he's still funny. I remember he asked me once, he said, we'd just be mucking around like, you know, idiots, like kids. And he said, if we're suddenly not funny and no one finds us funny...
how will we know and i said who cares yeah who cares we're laughing yeah for sure now ricky i have a semi-serious question here i don't want you to cry when you answer it but with uh all of the uh information we've heard about how you started and what you thought you were going to be and the music and whatnot you're in your mid-50s have you exceeded your expectations i'm fucking out
Of course I fucking have. Well, but I mean, I'm assuming there is a higher place. We always sort of reset our goals as we start to approach them, right? Yeah. Where are you at right now? Are you satisfied and yet still want more? Or have you hit, ah, I'm past where I ever wanted to be and I could get happy with retirement even and know that I've done it? Yeah, yeah.
Before you answer that, Ricky, just know how great it is to hear how Bateman's brain works. Go ahead. I think you hone it and hone it. You keep folding the samurai. You keep honing it and what you like. And what I like is no interference and only doing things I absolutely love. So I want to do less and less and just more of the thing that I absolutely love. And...
That's come down to, I suppose, if I'm doing sitcom, it's just doing the... No compromise. With no compromise, yeah. And stand-up is already there, really. There's already no compromise for stand-up. I think stand-up is just about the purest art form outside the novel, where what you think is what you can say, and it's what they hear. And that's pure. Because even with something like Afterlife, I get final edits,
I do it all, but there's still 60 people involved. You still have to go, they have to give it to someone and they still have to go, we put out on this day. Whereas stand up, I say, I want to do this venue on this day, sell the ticket, the tickets are taught, I go up, I'm doing this, this is it, goodnight. And I did it. And every single step of the way is absolutely as I wanted it. So it's more and more, how do I get to that?
And I've always known that the most important thing is being sort of happy, really. I've always tried to cut out the middleman, just wanted to be... I'll show you a story that sums it up. I think we're... It must have been like 1971. I was like 10 in school. And there was a big thing in the early 70s where a lot of unskilled or semi-skilled workers were getting money to go on oil rigs. So you had carpenters that they were suddenly going to oil rigs
And where they were earning like 50 quid a week, they were earning like, you know, 500 quid a day on these oil rigs. And it was a big thing. It was a big thing in the paper. And I remember the teacher doing a thing to the class saying, okay, kids, what would you do with the money if you could earn 500 pounds a day? And it went round and the kids were saying, I'd buy my mum a house. I'd buy a car. I'd buy a horse. And it came to me and I said, I'd work one day a week. Yeah.
And I remember just thinking, that would be amazing because I could have the other six days. Yeah. I'm with you, man. I really admire... First of all, you know I'm a huge fan of your stand-up and I think it's so...
I watch it in awe because I think it's so scary to, you know, I've never done it. It just seems like the scariest. It's like you say, it is so raw. It's just you and your relationship with the audience and everything that's coming out. And man. But it's not scary. It's the thing that you do it. I think driving a car is scary because I can't do it. But.
when you realise that you've got that safety net for the first, you go out there and you try stuff out and if it's not working you don't put the tickets on sale I've done 50 gigs before I sell out a real gig and I know what it's going to be like it's going to be the same as the you know I mean the scary thing is you know recently the scary thing is
You know, this council thing, being council, if you say the wrong thing and suddenly, you know, Netflix can take you off their platform or, you know. So that's the scary thing. How do you vet that then? How do you really go through your stuff? And who's going to be the arbiter? Well, you can't. You can't because you don't know. You could be the most woke, politically correct stand-up in the world at the moment. But you don't know what it's going to be like in 10 years' time.
You can get canceled for things you said 10 years ago because you don't know what it's going to be like in 10 years time. And it also seems like the people that try to, you specifically, because I remember the Golden Globes were, all of them, they're so fucking funny. But you were so great. But I remember the same people, it seems, that try to cancel you are also your fans.
are also the people that hire you and also the people that still want to work with you. The thing is about this, I think the misunderstanding about cancer culture is, you know, some people think that you should be able to say anything you want without consequences. And that's not true because we're members of society and people are allowed to criticize you. They're allowed to not buy your things. They're allowed to burn your DVDs and they're allowed to turn the telly off.
What they're not allowed to do is to bully other people into not going to see you. Or there's some people that are, that are, that are doctors who are great doctors. They're getting fired from a hospital because of a bad joke they made on Twitter. And I'll go, well, that that's not relevant to what they do. So,
I don't think, I don't think you, what's being canceled. It's having no platform, isn't it? And what can they do to me? Because I've got, I've got this now. Who's going to cancel me? Twitter? YouTube? If I have to, I'll go to Hyde Park and stand up on a bench and shout shit. So. I got in a lot of shit. They almost canceled me because, because I've, I,
I killed a hobo. And I thought, that's nothing to do with my job. No. That's something that I did on a weekend. Well, that's the other thing as well. If you don't break the law...
Yeah. People just cannot or not buy your material. Whereas some people get cancelled because they've actually broken the law. I talk about this in my new stand-up about, you know, what is being cancelled. And I suppose that's a scary thing because it's a real consequence. Right. No one looks at the argument anymore. They look at who's saying it and they make their decision. There's no nuance. Hmm.
And some of it's down to politics, some of it's down to social media, because it's too fast. It's way too fast. As I say, 20 years ago, if you were offended by someone on television, you got out a pen and paper, you went, dear BBC, oh, fuck, I can't be bothered. Now you fire off a tweet, and that tweet goes on the fucking news because someone else argued with it. So it's this road rage. It's things happening too fast that you can't take back.
And people dig in and people want to be heard. People want to feel that they had an effect. It's why people heck look a median. They want to feel they were there. I was here. And so now people are heard. And the microphone is the same volume. Everybody has access to it. Yes. An idiot stands next to a genius on Twitter and it looks the same. It's the same font. And exactly. Yeah. And that's what's so dangerous. And the genius has earned it and the idiot hasn't. And yet people don't,
they don't make that distinction at all anymore. Well, exactly. And it comes back to what we said at the beginning, just because you're offended, it doesn't mean you're right. And in recent years, we've had this thing where people would say, my opinion is worth as much as the next person's. And that's true. But recently we had my opinion is worth as much as your fact. And that's simply not true. Now people are offended by facts.
People now know that when I do Happy Birthday Earth, 4.6 billion years old, I'm having a go at fundamentalists. And they know. They go, why are we? I love that. Because they take facts personally. People take facts personally. I could talk to you about all that stuff for like nine hours straight. I love that. I loved everything. Oh, man. I bet he's looking forward to that. Listen. Ha, ha, ha.
And I mean straight. No interruptions, no sleep. Ricky, what was that joke that you talked about? You said that sort of that idea of people being offended or online or on social media was the equivalent of running down to the town square and... Oh, when people... Yeah, I do it in Humanity when there's a woman's...
arguing with me, getting offended by a tweet. Like, I was tweeting them. Like, I'm just tweeting. I don't know who's following me. That's like going into a town square and seeing a message that says guitar lessons. And you go, I don't fucking want guitar lessons! So, people...
it wasn't to you people jump in the way of a bullet and say why are you shouting at me and people have done that on purpose they've tried to give ideas a human right that's why so if you criticize christianity people say why are you criticizing christians and i go i'm not i'm
criticize the idea or I'm, you know, I'm discussing an idea. It's like me getting offended where someone hates maths and it's not mine. Maths isn't mine. It's a, it's a concept. It's an idea. So, but anyway, this is for our, this is for our nine hour podcast. Oh man, that's going to be a real hit. I tell you what. Part, part two through 12.
When are you coming to Los Angeles? Will always gets to see you, always gets to hang out. I won't bring Sean. I do actually see four people when I'm in LA, don't I? I can be small. I'll have a four and a half. Will and Mitch, we always invite you, but you're always having a...
Body wax or something. Yeah, you're right. Hurry out here, please, or I'll come see you there. Don't make like you don't know me when I call you. You'll never come to England. I want to come. What did you call it? Leafy? Where do you live? Will's been here. Will calls me up and goes, I'm around the corner. I go, what? He calls me up. He's here all the time, back and forth between Samaritz and... Yeah, hopping off yachts and shit. I never go to Samaritz. Only Gustav. So, listen...
I didn't even say it right. No, you didn't. Well, listen, yeah, I do miss hanging out, and I do miss going over there. I love spending time in the UK, and I love spending time with you. All right. Goodbye. We love you. Goodbye, Ricky. We love you. Ricky, thank you so much, man. Guys, remember, well, tell the other guys, if anyone asks, is he in the SAS? No, he's just a comedian. Right. Okay. Got it. Got it. Okay. All right.
Wait, play us off real quick with something. Grab that guitar. Play us off with something. Just a quick little, just a single chord. Oh, we didn't have to twist those on? Here we go. Here we go. Pretty girl on the hood of a Cadillac, yeah. She's broken down on three-way nine.
Ricky Gervais, everybody.
That was awesome. Incredible, Ricky Gervais. Thank you, Ricky. You're beautiful, mate. Ricky, you're gorgeous. Hey, listen, it's getting late. You're going to have to get those prop awards back to the prop house. Okay, buddy. Whoa, look at that. IPA, dead. Love you, Ricky. Bye, pal. Thanks, buddy. Bye, pal. Thank you. Bye, bye, bye. It's great fun.
Oh, what a man. How great was that? Well, I love that you guys knew him. I've never met him. I'm such a... Yeah, no, and I was serious about the influence he had over me, over the show, over... I just, I think he's it. Have you guys ever seen him debate religion with Stephen Colbert? No, I would... I mean, I've seen him debate religion with lots of people. He does it online. He does it in person. Yeah, it's really interesting. Wait, does Colbert... Colbert is... Catholic. Catholic.
And Ricky's saying... He's an atheist, yeah. Really? Yeah, it's really fascinating. He's incredible. Anyway, I'm a huge fan of his. I think he has a brilliant mind. He's an incredible guy. He's so funny, and he's such a sweet... Which is funny, because like Jason, you were saying, some of his characters, he can be very confident. Even though he can be self-effacing, he can also be very confident. And he is confident. He's just a smart guy. He's a very level-headed...
And sweet, sweet guy and super smart, which is why it was good to have him on our show because he was able to help us. Yeah, I love that thing at the beginning where he's like, wow, are you guys just idiots? Yeah. It's called smartless. We go ahead and give you a big hint right at the top. Yeah, I mean, the bar is low and it's advertised, you know? It's like...
I want to meet Jane. I want to hang out. I have met her, but I want to hang out with her. I'm fascinated to see what— We'll include you guys. I'll include you in the dinner. Yes, please. I would love that. The one thing he didn't say, though, as he was signing off was— Smart. Less. Smart. Less.
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