Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Watch this. Here we go. Ready?
3, 2, 1. 3, 2, 1. Here we go. And in 1, 3, 2, 1. And we're going live in 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. And we're going to the West Coast in 3. In 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. You saw it here first. World premiere. In 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Listener, I have to apologize for my co-host. Hey, did we do all the 3, 2, 1s? Yeah. Welcome to Smartless. Smart. Less. More.
Smart. Wise. Smart. Wise. So, Will, you're back on American soil. Congratulations. Thank you. Did you kiss the tarmac when you got off your plane? I did. I always do that.
So you ask them, as soon as you get off the plane, you say, hey, can I just go down the little stairs here on the jetway? I just need to kiss the tarmac.
Well, yeah, I mean, it's the only way to get off this plane was to get off the stairs under the jet lag. Oh, my God. You're trying to do a private joke. You definitely went commercial at least, right, from England? Of course I did. I had an incredible, as you guys saw, I'll send you that photo, I had an incredible time at Liverpool. Yeah, with Juergen. Sean, Will's doing really well, you know? He's flying private occasionally. He's on the pitch in Liverpool. Yeah.
He's got a real porny-looking mustache on his face today. I got a fresh new haircut. He's real boyish. Yeah, I went up to Liverpool. I watched them play at Anfield, which is their ground. It was like such a dream come true for me. I know. Hang on. Sorry. And I got to my friend Tom took me up there kindly. Is that Werner? Tom Werner. Oh, that's nice.
Yeah. Why don't you bring Tom on the show one of these days? He's a nice fella. I'd like to. He's the best. He's got a lot to say. So anyway, so Tom is part of, obviously, the group that they own the Red Sox and they own Liverpool and the Pittsburgh Panthers.
Penguins suffice it to say Tom is an old friend Jason you and I played golf them a number of times He's a great dude, and he invited me up to the game. I went up there. It was incredible Billy Hogan gonna win they got a big win against West Ham so they did that's fine. Yeah I was like man. I'm wanna know I said to Jurgen Klopp I go I want to know so I'm kind of good luck and I guess you have to have me back and
His assistant coach, who's like sort of number one right-hand guy, this guy Pep Linders, who's a Dutch football coach, he's a massive Smartless fan. So, Pep, I know you're listening. Oh. Yeah, huge fan. Scotty has a CPAP. And Billy...
Billy Hogan, who runs the team day to day, he's also a massive, massive Smartless fan, listens to every episode. Really? Yeah, every episode. So it was kind of like it felt very good. They were all happy to... Well, let me... Because I know what a little boy you are in the best sense of the word when it comes to Liverpool or your Formula One. And...
if I've, I've said to people in the past, the only, the only good thing about being semi recognizable, um, is that you can get a good table at a restaurant that's hard to book. Yeah. But most importantly, when you meet your heroes, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a decent chance they might know who you are and you can skip
all the sort of fan, like, oh, I'm so sorry, do you mind if I ask you about this? They want to talk to you too. So, Will, was that amazing for you? What was amazing was, and I don't know if it's because Pep had told Juergen or Juergen actually knew, but Juergen Klopp, who I totally admire, he comes towards me smiling, and I, of course, I do it to everybody. I do it to my agent. I go, hey, Juergen, Will Arnett, and he goes, I know who you are, and he came and gave me a huge hug. It was...
chappy chappy's like what is happening i know this is this is so freaking crazy that's so cool sean we got a chappy mention yeah we got it and we did but we're you know smartless we are the official podcast of of liverpool football club yeah that's so exciting i got a flat tire yesterday should we get to the guest yeah no hang on sean by the way here's the other thing i was gonna say so i come back stateside as we say good those two there's more sean's
juggling his bosoms. I come back and I start watching football and American football. Yeah.
I see you two clowns every 10 minutes in your... Sorry about that. Yeah, in your Verizon spot. Yeah. You guys, I love you guys both. And you're in there and you're hilarious and you guys have obviously great chem. And the great Will Speck and Josh Gordon directed it. Yeah, well, yeah. And it made me so happy to see you guys. The problem is that, you know, they came to us because the iPhone and Verizon is a fan of SmartList. So they thought to come to us
The reason, listener, that Will is not on that is because he's got a prior commitment with a phone company. Yes, I have. Jason, you're right. I have a prior commitment with a phone company. But what was fun was... There's more money for me and Sean, basically. Coming home and coming back and seeing you guys on the air, it was like I'd been gone and then I'm like... Because it was Monday Night Football, I was like, look at these guys. I'm so sad.
- Look at these clowns. - Sean, you were very good. You were very good that whole day, Shawnee. - Well, likewise. - Now wait, was that the first time? Sean, it's the first time you and I have acted together, right?
I think so, yeah. I think it was, yeah. We did the doc and everything, but that was just us playing-- I guess we were playing ourselves in this spot too, but anyway. -But it was fun. -You were a real dream. Good God, you made me laugh hard. Well, you both-- First of all, you both look-- And Jason, I want to say that you didn't look great. You look great. You did not look puffy. -Really? -Yeah, you look very-- I think there may have been a little bit of help in post-production. -I look like I could use a little-- -I smoothed out my eyes just a little bit. Just a little under the eyes, I think, in post-production. -No, that's okay. -They may have done that.
It's called tough production. Yeah, tough production. But I don't know. Listen, you know, you got to be pretty on TV. Yeah. Guys. Yeah. Let's get to our guest. Okay. This person's got stuff to do. Today's guest is a Grammy winner. What? Just bring him on. She has a degree from Stanford. She's a gifted fisherman. She's got part Dutch, Canadian, English, Irish, Russian. She plays volleyball, basketball. She also has multiple Emmys.
She's a Rhodes Scholar and earned a Doctor of Philosophy in Politics from Oxford. What the heck? She's written four books, had a crossword puzzle in the New York Times, had her own radio show, a couple of podcasts, and her own TV show. What's happening? She's a hero to some and inconvenient to others. Please welcome Robert and Elaine's daughter, David's sister, Susan's partner, and one of my personal heroes, America's own Rachel Ann Maddow. Oh, my God. Yeah.
Now that's a booking. That's a booking. I'm going to cry. I'm going to cry. Cry on me. This is crazy. This is a top-notch booking, baby. I know. How did you get to me by saying, you got to be pretty to be on TV? Okay, let's go to the guest. That was cruel. This is so cool. Rachel, I've been mistaken for you so many times. We should check in in the morning about who's using the haircut today. That should be noted until he talks.
Oh my God, that reminds me. I'll never forget Will. Amy cracked me up one day. She said, didn't she call herself...
She made some... She said, I am... I'm the female Chris Matthews. Who said that? Amy Poehler. Did she really? Called herself that once. I thought it was a funny thing. Actually, that's kind of a good party game. Which MSNBC host are you? That is not bad. I saw you, Rachel. I saw you walking down the street in New York one time like a couple years ago. I have a creepier start to your story. Keep going.
I was falling closely behind you in a van down 6th Avenue. I could smell you as you passed. And I was like, right, ah, screw it. And I was like, no, no, no, I can't. I'm too nervous. I was too nervous.
Was I doing something weird or was I just getting groceries or something? No, you were just walking. You were just walking. Rachel, I am so, so excited that you are here. I will, with all respect to all of the guests that have been nice enough to say yes to my invites, I will say you're one and one A with Radiohead for me. Oh, wow. Will, Sean, can you attest to that? Yes. Yeah, Jason talks about you all the time.
I mean, all I do is watch MSNBC. It's true. It's 12 hours a day. It's true. Do you think you are Joy Reid if you had to be one of us? There isn't anyone I don't love on that. Anyway. I think if I am any other host, I think I'm Chris Hayes.
Chris Hayes hangs his son for me. I could see that. You guys seem, I've seen you guys sort of go back and forth a little bit over the years, and you seem like you guys legitimately get along very well. You see eye to eye. Very collegial workplace here. People like each other. But now we no longer have the handoff.
A, you're only one day a week, and that one day a week, your lead in now is Jen Psaki, another past guest of ours. I loved her guest with you guys. Oh, good. She's awesome. That was a great conversation. Now, do you think she's going to be as good at the on-time handoff as Chris was? He was never late. No.
He was so good about cutting off gas and getting to you on time. So humbling because he made such an effort to always make sure at 9-0-0-0-0 I was ready to go. Whereas I'm always traipsing like a minute and a half into Lawrence's show. Oh, you do 10 minutes with Lawrence on his because he makes sure he's got to tell everybody who he's got while he's still got your audience, which I get. I would do the same thing. Wait, I got a question, Rachel. When you, it's kind of to that point when you're,
What's fascinating to me about what you do is how you fill in the gaps and you constantly have something to talk about endlessly. Is that embarrassing? How much of that is on a prompter or on a car?
Or on a card? Or you just like, how much research before every single show? Are you just filled with education in your brain where you can just keep talking about it? She's not winging it like we do. I don't have any other life, for example. I don't have like things. It's just this. So anything where it's like me talking to the camera, I have written it down.
If it's me asking, if it's me interacting with another human, I have not written it down. So that's the way to know if it's in the teleprompter. But like, for instance, your interview with Cassidy Hutchinson the other day was incredible. You were certainly prepared for that. You had questions that were very specific that we all really wanted to hear the answers on. And she was incredible and forthcoming. I mean, book interviews are great, but it's...
I mean, it's got... I mean, I'm only interested in talking to people about a book if I'm interested in the book. And so I've always read the book. But once you've read the book, you don't have to do that much other preparation as long as you grok it and you kind of understand what's going on. Rachel, explain to the guys what a book is. Yeah, what does that mean? Neither of them reads ever. It's alarming. You read an entire book for one interview? It's alarming. It's just...
It's like, you know how stuff gets stapled together? You move the staple to the long side of the paper. You still don't have that. And it's left to right, top to bottom, right? Put it in TV terms. Just put it in, like, a television program. Imagine a television program, but all the dialogue was... What else would I do? Crunched into...
- It's cue cards you can hold. - You know what, Rachel? - Yeah, but what I was saying is just the ability to, like, when, if something goes wrong or the satellite didn't connect, sorry, we can't get 'em, and you just fill the space right away. - Well, by the way, I will say, and Rachel, just so you don't have to be too embarrassed about why you are so smart,
I will say that part of the thing is that because I imagine someone like Rachel is so well-read, that she's able to talk on many different subjects at all times because she has points of reference other than, you know, The Golden Bachelor, you guys. So...
Which is embarrassing for the two of you. I can't wait to start watching that. I know, neither can I, by the way. Neither can I. I've never watched any of The Bachelors. No, never. And I want to watch that one. You just do it. What does it take to be golden? How old is he? Over 50? He's 72. You know, they did The Golden Bachelor once in Germany, but that was different. It was a different show. Here, get rid of the joke. Here we go. So...
No, it is what you think it is. I've been there. Sure. Um, no, but Rachel, you, you have said, and when I say that I'm talking about my research on Wikipedia, um, that, uh, you think you're, you have an obligation to, since you have a light on the camera, um,
that you need to have something to say when that light comes on. And you're very responsible in making sure that you're prepared and you're brilliant at doing that A block where you are giving us some story we have no idea what the hell you're talking about for a few minutes in the best way. And then you land the plane and contextualize what this story and history was as it pertains to something that's going on today. Yeah, I love that.
Thank you for that. You hold my hand every night or once a week now. You know, that's the way that I learn. If something's going on that I think is interesting or important, I want to be able to say why it's interesting or why it's important. And usually that involves some sort of origin story or some sort of historical analog or something like that. And so that's usually where those...
stories come from. But when it comes to just having something to say, I really firmly believe in reading widely, not only reading about the thing you're supposedly researching, but just reading a lot. Yeah, I think, you know, Rachel...
Tell me if you-- if this rings true for you at all. If someone like you, you went to Stanford, you're a Rhodes Scholar, you're really well-educated, you obviously can speak to a number of different sort of big issues. There used to be a time when somebody like you came along and was so well-informed and was so smart and able to, you know, really deal with a lot of complex issues at one time and blah, blah, blah, they would--
maybe turn all their talents to the public sector. They would try in a way to, you know, to serve, you know, in government, et cetera, et cetera. Now, partially, and it's just really a result of where we are as a society, the highest calling almost is entertainment and celebrity. But also, but within that, you get to kind of have your cake and eat it too because you get to go do that. But in a way...
You get to serve the public by, as Jason said, helping people understand what's going on. So you kind of get to do both. Do you see it in that way that you're... And again, I don't want you to, you know, say that you're doing some great thing for the greater good and that, you know, but you kind of are. Of course. Well, it's nice of you to think of it that way. I mean, I...
I definitely feel like my job is trying to understand things myself so that I can explain them for lots of people. And so that is a very satisfying job, particularly at a time when things, I think the news feels overwhelming or devastating to lots of people, to have it be your job, the thing you get paid to do, to try to understand it and explain it in a way that makes sense, that's real. It's a very therapeutic thing. But in terms of what I'm...
Like trying to do in the world. I was an activist before I got involved in the media, and I definitely see a real hard dividing line between those two things. Like I spent a long time trying to get people to do things, trying to get policies to change, trying to advocate for specific people in trouble or whatever it was. And I stopped doing advocacy and instead started explaining. There's no money in it. There's no money in it, and you can't get a table at a restaurant, as Jason said.
I get it. But talk more about that, Rachel, because that's a – was it – I would imagine it would be difficult to turn that switch off of advocacy with the end game being actual change and results, whereas –
Now you're probably able to say much more with much more specificity, deeper reach, much more research, but you need to be a little more, I guess, indifferent to whether the results are going to come because you're presenting information and...
potentially hoping that people react to it and change their patterns from it. But there's no follow-up to that, you know, like there is in the other work you were doing perhaps. Yeah, it's interesting. Like I really feel like what I'm doing now has a bigger impact, but I have to have less ego about what it is because I'm not like trying to change one policy. Like I used to work for the ACLU National Prison Project and I was in ACT UP. Same.
in the AIDS activist sort of heyday. And we were always trying to get a thing done. And I feel like I know how to do that. And I was pretty good at it, but I was sort of average good at it. There was a lot of other people doing it that were better than me. But with what I'm doing now, I feel like hopefully by creating more understanding, by making what's important about the news and current events really plain to people, it makes it possible for people to make their own decisions about...
either, you know, just participating or doing activism. Yeah. We'll be right back. And now back to the show. So Rachel, your latest book, Prequel, is a bit of a cautionary tale yet. Yes, that is applicable to what we're talking about right here. That in fact...
America went through this at least once before, right around World War II is the story that you've uncovered, correct? Yeah. I mean, it's basically... I think it's a positive story because there was all these Americans who fought against it, but there was this really big fight in the lead-up to World War II in this country against...
the fascist movement in this country that in a lot of cases was actually working with Nazi Germany to try to set up a similar form of government here. And we had paramilitary groups and we had a Nazi agent working with lots of members of Congress on a big propaganda effort. And it was seemingly a very big movement that had quite a bit of support. And, you know, there's lots of documentation to that, right? Yeah. You know, the most famous industrialist in the country, Henry Ford, was part of it.
the biggest national hero at the time, Charles Lindbergh, was a big part of it. I'm watching the documentary. I just started watching last night. It's called The United States and the Holocaust. Oh, yeah, Ken Burns, yeah. Yes, it's fascinating. And he has a lot on Charles Coughlin and Lindbergh, yes. So Coughlin was the biggest media figure we've ever had in America, and he was a self-described fascist and a rabid anti-Semite, and he set up armed militia groups around the country among his followers.
Good guy. Was there a remedy that came from this that we could perhaps learn from to sort of offset what we're dealing with? Dude, we tried. I mean, I don't know if you've seen, but there's been other people who have come in and take over the media, and they're not necessarily American. Oh, yeah. Right? And it's like you were saying. We keep making the same fucking mistake. What is...
What's the change? What is the change that needs to happen? Yeah, how did they get through it then that maybe we could kind of draft off now? That's why I wrote the book, is that I actually think there's a bunch of, like, lessons learned, things to, you know, post-it notes, things to remember for 80 years from now when this comes around again. I mean, obviously, the Nazis are... There's nobody like the Nazis. That's not the analogy. The analogy is a domestic... That was their slogan. LAUGHTER
Don't settle for second best. We're the worst you've ever met. But is there one thing that we should focus on to maybe inoculate ourselves from a possible future or are there many small things?
It's that there can't just be one thing. And so everything has to happen at once. So there has to be, when it's crimes, when there's violence, there has to be prosecution. Like the criminal justice system has a role. And it's really important to protect them from being intimidated. The risk of violence that I was talking about in the 1944 sedition trial, which I write about in the book,
The attorney general was actually pressured by a senator who was implicated in the plot, was pressured by that senator into firing the prosecutor in that case. Like it worked. Like that's terrible. We have to make sure the Justice Department and the legal system is protected from intimidation. But then it's also, you know, activism, people infiltrating these groups, good journalism about it. You need like the military to court martial people. You need
the bar associations and churches to police their ranks when the Catholic Church is who shut down Father Coughlin. And had they not, he'd still be preaching, you know, anti-Semitism all through World War II. So you're saying that we could live in a world where a president could be, could escape punishment because potentially like the Southern District of New York would refuse to
I mean, I'm just, look, I'm trying to, I'm dealing in hypotheticals here. Well, maybe what might be even more apt, another book that you wrote, Bagman, correct me if I'm wrong, is the Spiragnu, that there was a deal offered him that may or may not potentially be a precedent for what could shape the possible conclusion of any sort of Trump sentencing.
Well, what happened with Agnew is that they hit him with a 40-count federal indictment, which sounded amazing at the time, and now we're up in the 90-something-count federal indictment, and so he sounds like a piker. But, yeah, they were hitting him with that felony indictment, and he so didn't want to go to jail that his very able lawyers negotiated a deal where he'd plead no law. He'd plead effectively no contest.
to one felony, and he would avoid jail time, but the penalty was that he had to resign from office. And agree never to go into politics again, correct? You know, I asked the prosecutors who were involved in that if that was a contingency, if they said you can never run again, and they said, we never thought...
that we would ever have to put that in writing because who would ever think of voting for somebody who'd been charged with felonies? But wasn't this right at the moment where they were pretty sure Nixon was either going to resign or be impeached and that Spiro Agnew with all of these, what was it, tax fraud or something like that, that the possibility was strong that he could end up in jail as a result of that prosecution, but...
But then be appointed president because Nixon was on his way and they didn't want a president to be incarcerated. Yes. Because it would just be a nightmare. So they offered him this deal. Am I getting any of that? This whole idea that you can't bring a prosecution against a sitting president, that whole idea really was crystallized and formalized at the Justice Department around Nixon and Agnew because –
the attorney general at the time, Elliot Richardson, is one of the people who was getting like middle of the night drunken phone calls from Nixon ranting and raving and seeming like a crazy person. The attorney general thought he was in such bad shape that he was going to die and that Agnew was going to be elevated. And it was tax evasion, but it was also bribery and extortion and all these other corruption crimes. And they thought, my God, we've got to figure out a way to get him out.
Out of there. But there's also that thing, they probably never imagined it, Rachel, because there was a thing back then that people had that was called shame. They'd reach a certain point, and now people are so ashamed. How do you spell it? Shame? Yeah, yeah. Where they'd be like, even a guy like Spirit, he's like, I'm not going to go fucking do that. I can't do that. That's indecent, you know, at the highest level. I've done a bunch of other shit, but doing that, now it doesn't matter. All of that is out the window because of, you know,
You can't assume that. It's such a dumb, dumb question to all of this is like, why do people go into politics? I don't understand. The second you get elected, you got a target on your back and then they're involved in everything we're talking about where I'm going to get you, I'm going to sue you, I'm going to sue you. And it's just, it seems like an endless game of that.
I mean, you can do good stuff in politics. Like government can do good things, but a lot of people go into politics because they want power and they want ego. It's certainly not for the money, right? Doesn't an average senator make far, far less, probably a tenth of what they could make in the private sector being a lawyer? Most of these senators would be the top lawyer in their district. So they're taking a big pay cut. So it must just be for power. Although they all seem to do very well after they leave office. Yeah, no kidding. Have you ever seen a poor ex-senator?
What did they call Menendez? Gold bar Bobby or something like that? I thought it was pretty funny. Now, all right. Well, Rachel, let's go back. Let's go back to the volleyball and basketball days and getting sort of the – now your father was Air Force, I believe, and your mom was in education. Yeah.
Sort of, yeah. Yeah? Okay. She worked at the middle school. Okay. But there was clearly that great sort of cocktail of those two things at the dinner table for you to start getting interested in those worlds and
Yes, and did politics, was it an early passion or do you find it later? No, not at all. It's interesting. I didn't, we didn't, we weren't like a kid's book kind of family. Like we didn't have that. That wasn't the vibe. Like my mom is from, grew up on a farm, very poor in Northeastern Canada. My dad was the first person in his family to go to college. Take it easy, Will. Take it easy, Will. We're going to pause. Okay.
Oh. Your mom's Canadian? Here we go. Yeah, she's from Newfoundland. She's from Newfoundland? Yes. Oh, there you go. Oh, there you go. I'm going to say, you know, I'm Canadian. I'm from Toronto. We're going to say hi to all our buddies out there in Newfoundland there, buddy. Hey, there. Hey, Torbay. Yeah. Hey, Gander. No way. Yeah. That's amazing. Big family. Lots of sisters who are nuns. She didn't want to be a nun, didn't want to be a nurse, afraid of the sight of blood, and didn't want to be a teacher, didn't much like children. So she left...
came to the United States, ended up meeting my dad when he was in the Air Force. But yeah, I grew, I like sort of grew up reading the newspaper and sort of was like more interested in news. But then by the time I was sort of figuring out who I was in my teenage years, I was, it was like
like the real height of the AIDS crisis, and I was coming out as gay, and I was growing up in the San Francisco Bay Area. And so I kind of just like got really swept up in AIDS activism really early on. But did you guys talk about current events and stuff at the dinner table? Were you that kind of family? Were you talked about what was going on? No. Not really. No. It wasn't really like that, no. I mean, it was great. I mean, my parents are fantastic. They're my favorite people in the world.
But it just wasn't that kind of a vibe. Like, I think they were as surprised as I was. I also didn't start doing anything in the news media until after I was almost done with my graduate degree. I just was on a totally different plane. My first news job was I was, I did an, there was an open on-air audition to be the news girl on the Morning Zoo radio show next to the town that I was growing up in.
Drive time. No way. Rachel Maddow on the morning zoo is the greatest. News Girl was my title. No way. All right. We're here with the weasel and the woody. And here with Rachel. Here's News Girl.
Wait, Sean, your dad was in the Air Force, right? Yeah. He took off real fast. No, not just because he took off. Yeah, because he took off. That's why I thought that. But Rachel, what drew you to like want to even do that? What drew you to be like, oh my God, I want to be, I want to try that zoo news girl, news review. It was a dare. I was staying with friends. Zoo news. I was, I was.
I was staying with friends and I was doing odd jobs and I was terrible at all of them. I was doing deliveries, but I had a car with an electrical problem. So unless I could leave my car running and it would not stall out, I needed a jump every time.
You got to park on a hill. Pop the clutch. It was really bad. I had that problem too. I worked at, my friends had a coffee roasting company and I like installed some plumbing backwards in their plant and made a faucet blow up and that didn't, like I just had a lot of really bad jobs. And so my friends who I was staying with said, oh, this morning show we listened to, they're doing this audition. And I was like,
And I auditioned live on the air and I got hired and got on the spot and started the next day. And I just loved it from the, I was just reading associated press, like rip and read top of the hour news copy. And you just couldn't get enough. Yeah. That's so cool. Amazing. But then though, I'm going to jump way forward then. Now, now flashing forward, you find yourself, uh,
as a panelist on Tucker Carlson's show on MSNBC. And how – I don't remember him on MSNBC. You came on my radar when I was – because I was a big, big – still am an Olbermann fan. You were on there often. But what was it – was Tucker the same Tucker back then or was he on –
The left? No. He wasn't on the left. MSNBC wasn't really. I mean, Keith is what made MSNBC liberal, right? He showed, he did great. He sort of came out as a liberal, did a great job, his incredible broadcasting talent. And he, with especially the special comments, kind of created, cut the path through the jungle in terms of making MSNBC have kind of a liberal identity. Before that, it really didn't. And so Tucker doing the late night show on MSNBC was,
It was like MSNBC was just politics. It wasn't any one lane in politics. I think it was, I think it might have been his immediate post-bowtie job. Yeah. Like I don't, I don't think it was, I think he was post-bowtie. Post-bowtie, yeah. That's the delineation. I think that he became the Tucker that we all ended up knowing when he realized how well it paid to be that guy. Yeah.
And I know that's a cynical thing, but I truly believe that. I don't know the guy at all, but I'm really good at judging people harshly. It's kind of a talent. You should hear me talk about Elon Musk. But I will say... I love that. I will say, let me ask you, Rachel, when it comes to Tucker... Uh-oh. Do you miss him? No.
I'm real busy. Yeah, I know. Well, that's good. He and Bill O'Reilly must be doing something. But thank God that Keith came along and exposed us all to you and was such a big advocate for you. So you ended up being on Keith's show quite a bit and then guest hosting for him quite a bit and enjoying it and him enjoying you and MSNBC enjoying you and then...
your show took off, yes? - Yeah, so it was interesting. One of the things that Keith did for me was he said,
you should use my agent. And I never do that. I stop my agent from representing anybody who I compete against, but you should use my agent, which was a very generous thing. And she's fantastic. Her name is Jean Sage. She was my agent forever and ever and ever. And Jean convinced the president of MSNBC, Phil Griffin, to hire me. And the fact that I had done so well and perceived to have done well on Keith's show, I think was absolutely the on-ramp there.
But then I started at 9 o'clock right after the 2008 – or right at the 2008 election. And then that's what I've been doing ever since. Only recently did I scale back from five days to one day. But this is – we just turned 15. Yeah. That's awesome. Congratulations. What a great, great accomplishment. But now you're leaving yourself open to pursue all the many other things that you're doing with the writing and the podcasting and –
And also finding time to live a life and fish with Susan. Yeah, trying. Right? What do you guys... Do you guys do something... Susan is your wife. Are you comfortable telling us that it just dumbs it all down? I mean, are you waiting with bated breath for The Golden Bachelor or crap like that? I say with all respect. We are such...
Or at least as much respect as you can muster. Exactly. What do you guys do to dumb it down? We are, are you familiar with the Great British Baking Show? Yes, of course. Yes. I think it's the greatest television show ever made, but I also haven't watched much television. So I don't know, but it's my perfect drug. It's my perfect. Does it get you then to the kitchen to try your talents at the same stuff? Oh, no, I can only make drinks. Okay.
Do you read a book while you're watching TV? What's your favorite drink? If someone's going to bring you a bottle of something as a gift, you're coming over to Rachel's house for dinner, what do they want to bring you?
Is it wine? Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of an, I don't drink vodka, but other than that, I'm pretty good. Oh, really? I'm pretty equal opportunity. But, you know, I also feel like I used to be. What's the vodka story? At what point was someone holding your hair after vodka? No, I just don't like it. It tastes like a cleaning product to me. You know how like some people have that with cilantro? Yeah.
People always say, like, oh, vodka has no flavor. I'm like, it does, and it tastes like you should be... It's under the rim. You know, it's funny. I have this image of you and your partner, Susan, because our friend Eli is a friend of all of ours. He used to always say we'd watch you when we were in Atlanta, whatever, and he'd say, I just want to go to Rachel's house and have coffee in the morning and have her just...
Just talk me through everything that's going on. Just break it all down. And just make me feel okay and break everything down because there's so much information. I just want her, I just want to sit on her porch. And I go, yeah, Eli, I don't think that's going to happen, buddy. Also, that's not what coffee with me is like. It's a pretty nonverbal experience until I'm into cup two. Rachel, you know what I find interesting, what I really enjoy is watching you, when you're on TV and you're talking about a subject,
Your cadence is second to none because it's often quite broken up and you take pauses that I... What I've sort of gleaned from your pauses is that you're thinking, which is extraordinary. You're letting the teleprompter catch up, though. Well, yeah. It's suggesting that there's no prompter for whatever subject it is that you're kind of musing on. And that...
We live in a world where people are so quick to have an answer. It's not just about being right, it's about how quick you can be right. And it's so odd and I think it's so powerful to take a moment when you're talking about something to really, you know, think about it before you-- It's kind of the thing when people say when we had Biden on last year on our podcast, Biden, President Biden. And people say, "Well, you know, what was he like?" And I said, "You know what?
He's a really thoughtful guy. And yes, he's a little bit older than we are. However, I do like the idea of somebody who's in that position.
taking a minute to think about it when presented with a problem, and that is something that is really undervalued. And I think I see you do it in real time, and I find it very interesting. It's very powerful, right? Yeah, very well said. Well, I mean, I think it's important not to blag through stuff that you don't know. If you don't know, it's okay. Don't make it up. It's okay. We can find somebody else who does have the answer if you don't. But even if you're being asked your opinion on something, I think...
there isn't value to just like singing it out in the right tempo. You have to, there has to be a reason that you're there. There has to be a reason that you're worthy of being asked and worthy of the attention. It's why I don't put on, I never, on my shows, I never put on people to fight. Yeah. And if somebody lies on the show, I don't invite them back. That I feel like I'm,
offering my audience a chance to hear from somebody because I think they have something valuable to say. All right, I'll do it. Enhance our understanding of things. See? Yes. Boy, you really misplayed that, John. We'll be right back. All right, back to the show.
Wait, Rachel, do you think because, and then I want to get back more to you, but do you think now is the time more than ever in a long, long time for an independent to win next year? Because it doesn't seem like what I'm feeling is people aren't excited about either side. I'm excited about one side, but a lot of the people seem like they're not excited about either side. And I thought, well, gosh, what a perfect time.
storm for somebody to break through right in the middle and run as an independent. We really have a de facto two-party democracy, though, and so trying to bring about an independent candidacy at a practical level...
all you're doing is deciding which of the two parties you want to have that proportion of the vote shaved off of. So if you bring on an independent who's going to appeal to Democratic candidates, you're just making it more likely that President Biden will lose. And if you bring on an independent candidate who's more attractive to Republicans, you're making it more likely that probably Trump will lose. So it ends up in real politic just...
being that. And we can reimagine the American political system using instant runoff voting and other things that are now being tried in some states so that there isn't that spoiler effect. But right now, while it exists, the only purpose of an independent candidate is to take votes away from the major party candidate who they are most like. Will there ever be a world in this country where they will blow up the electoral college, that system? Will that ever happen?
Maybe. I mean, there's all sorts of counter-majoritarian things, like things in our system where the majority votes for a thing, but they still don't get it, that are starting to be really, I think, overexploited by people who want different types of minority rule. So that's gerrymandering, that's the electoral college, that's other forms of abuse of the legislative system, the ways Congress are changing. Republicans, broadly speaking, are using them in ways that are
against voting at a very level. You know, like a Democrat gets elected governor of North Carolina. And so the Republicans in the North Carolina legislature take away all the powers that the governor has. Eventually that kind of stuff reaches its limit. If we're going to be a democracy and not a country where you rule by force, then people are going to have to stand up for democracy. And that might mean the counter-majoritarian stuff like the electoral college.
is going to get some pressure. And we're now seeing how vitally important it is to maintain control of the Supreme Court and what happens when you don't. Yeah, and, you know, using...
underhanded and duplicitous and hypocritical tactics to get your majority on the Supreme Court pays off for the life of the justices. Turns out... Well, that's a bad precedent to set because you've now set the bar that any means necessary for getting a justice onto the court is effectively justified by what the Republicans did. Right, and we're not talking about necessarily... By the way, it should be noted to our listeners who were put off by us talking in this way...
We're not saying that having a conservative judge is bad. I'm really not suggesting it. If it's done within the framework of what is fair, then that's fine. What we're talking about is rigging the system to affect the outcome. And when you do that...
That is not fair. That is not a democracy working at its best, functioning at its best. And you should also be opposed to that because were it to work against you, you'd feel very undermined and you'd feel very cheated and you'd feel like the system had been abused. But unfortunately, it seems like we're having to start to sort of workshop and brainstorm what else we can do now that fair is...
is becoming less and less common in the political space. And do we take the bait and start playing by their rules and thus sacrificing our own values and ethics?
Or do we continue on the high road and get comfortable with the losses? You know, I just, I'm not sure what the future is going to hold for that. I feel like the lesson of history here is to have like one lodestar, which is protect democracy. And that means make sure that
everybody knows and everybody believes and we reify every way we can that the way we solve problems in this country is through democratic process. And anything that is about to, you know, what Will was saying about the fair process of which justices end up on the Supreme Court, if you vote for a conservative president, part of what you are voting for is if there is a vacancy on the Supreme Court while that president is in office, that president will appoint a conservative to the court. Or
conversely, with a liberal. You are voting for a liberal president. It is with the understanding that if there's a vacancy, there'll be a liberal appointee. When that system gets broken, you are separating outcomes from the vote and you are making people feel like the vote doesn't matter. And in fact, you are making it so their vote doesn't matter, which means our democracy is getting weaker. Whoever wins or loses any particular fight, the connection between
between people's desire and the outcomes they get from their government should always be the lodestar because that's the thing that's under assault from people who want authoritarianism and rule by force instead of rule by vote. That's right. And so to that, can you... I hate for you to make a prediction, but what do you think is the life... going to be the lifespan of Travis Kelsey and Taylor Swift? Is there any way that this makes it to the playoffs? Right. I mean...
You know, it's a hard knock life. This is a tough one. He's a very large man. He's a very large target. There's a lot of ways to make him. Yeah. You're good to avoid an answer on that one. Now, Rachel, I'm sure that there's a team of incredibly gifted people that you get to work with every day. Right.
or maybe not every day now for your show, but, um, yeah. What is your favorite part? I want to ask you to take us through your entire day cause I'm sure it's, it's a lot, but is there a favorite part of the day, um, that is potentially completely imploded when there's some breaking news and you got to toss it all out? Um,
Yeah. What's your favorite part of that collaboration? Part of the reason that I left doing five days a week and went to one day a week is that I felt like my thoughts were getting shorter, that I was starting to think in short thoughts without any... I wanted to think book-length thoughts instead of tweet-length thoughts.
Lots. And so now that I have this new schedule, I'm spending a lot of time and I'm working on a lot of projects that involve me reading a lot of books. And so I'm often kind of, I look like I'm going to get smothered by a collapsing pile of, you know, books about Nazis at any time of the day. But to have to like dig myself out of my home library where I'm dug into, you know, something going on in the 1920s in Mexico and then have to,
jump into like, wait, the bankruptcy court judge said what about Trump Soho? It can be a little weird. Yeah, so you must have an incredible team of researchers that can keep you up to date and or answer questions when you have them about what are the legal ramifications of X, Y, or Z. I mean, it's
probably never ending. Well, MSNBC made a good decision. I mean, in the Trump era, everybody in the news had to become like a jailhouse lawyer, like we all had to learn. You mean the same way that we all became medical experts during the pandemic? Yes, exactly. We all developed ersatz expertise.
But MSMDC did a really good thing and they hired a bunch of lawyers, both as on-air correspondents but also as off-air consultants to help us process and understand and be correct about analyzing. It used to be just Supreme Court decisions you'd have to deal with or an occasional true crime thing that captured people's attention. Now it's the president –
potentially going to jail in four different jurisdictions. You need to know a lot more with a lot more specificity. You might enjoy this. This is a little bit of a tangent. We can always cut it. About six months ago,
I was in Atlanta with Eli, and we got into an argument at breakfast over there at the OK Cafe, which is a terrific diner. Picturing you and Eli in an argument is already funny. Yeah, and our buddy Bob. And we were sitting there, and I said, I made the point that... Was Chappie not there? No, Chappie was not there. He was at the infield with Juergen Klopp. And I brought up the point that ignorance of the law is never a defense, as you might know. Rachel, you know that probably. And it's just not.
Eli and I went back and forth. So I ended up calling Jeff, who I work with, who's also an attorney. He agreed with me. Eli said, well, I don't think he really knows, eh? And like, Eli's from Halifax. So then we called my dad, who's retired for many years. And my dad said, well, actually, Willie, yeah, you're right. It's not ever a defense and et cetera. Eli didn't believe me. So we were having a little bit of time. Eli went to the bathroom. Bob goes on, what's that cameo?
Sure. Oh, God. And he finds out that for $100, we can get Alan Dershowitz to do a cameo. So we put in the message. We said, hey, everybody, just graduating from law school. It's kind of an inside joke. Tell everybody, Eli, about whether or not ignorance of the law is a defense. And Alan Dershowitz does this fucking cameo within 20 minutes.
that we sent to Eli. In the job. By the way, he did it from his home. Within 20, we're still in the argument and he gets an email from Alan Dershowitz saying that it's never... How fucking great is that? So what did Alan say in the cameo? He said, you know, I was just getting a massage. I just...
I never took the clothes off. These are quotes. Well, what a cameo. But he agreed with it. He said it's never, you know, ignorance of the law is never a defense. Whether or not you're wearing your underpants. Whether or not you're wearing your underpants. How fucking great is that? That's terrible. We should use cameo more for inside. Stuff like that. I know. For settling inside jokes and arguments. How good is that? It's a good idea. I got one once from the guy from Insane Clown Posse.
Did you really? That was really good. It was thanking me for having done a thing for a pal. But it was just this magnificent font of like every iteration of the F word I had ever heard used every possible way. It was fantastic. And you did not have a beef with any of the juggaloos, right? That's what their followers are called. I'm pro-juggalo. Is that true? Yeah, it's true. Oh, yeah. Are you kidding? Do you know what it means to be anti-juggalo? That'd be very bad.
Don't say that. Really, don't say it. Rachel, when you're home in your pile of books, reading and stuff, is it something you and Susan chat about? Like, do you guys like, Susan's like, hey, honey, what book did you read today? Or is it something you completely do by yourself and she does this all by herself and then you meet for dinner at the end and you talk about the day but you don't talk about your books? Pretty much the latter. Yeah. I mean, what I do, which is a horrible thing, is that we'll be out like in the woods on a dog walk or something and I'll go,
hey, do you want a Nazi story? There's always, no. No, really. This one's burning a hole in my pocket. Wait, can I tell you please? Like she'll occasionally indulge me, but I cannot overstate the importance of having a partner who does not value your work.
I think it's really important. Jason knows. She likes me, but she doesn't care. Jason's well aware. Jason's well aware. Yeah, exactly. And my daughters, they don't give it up either. They're like, they could not be less interested. It's very good for you. It's very good for you. The other day, I was with Jason and
and one of his daughters who I absolutely love. And I said, "Jason," he was like, "Wait, what did you say?" I'm like, "Jason, I texted that to you like a week ago." And he goes, "And I never responded?" And I go, "No." And his daughter turns to me, she goes, "That's okay, he never responds to my texts either."
Not true. He's the worst. I'm just... He's the worst. No, I just... You're the fucking worst. The ones that are important get the response. T-times. T-times. T-times. T-times, you've got to respond. Rachel, if you ever wanted to get a response out of Jason, you just go, how's next Thursday at 10 look for you to tee off...
And then he'll answer you, and then you've got him, and then you say the real thing. I'm trying to stay occupied during a strike. You know, I'm trying to keep the brain fresh. Sunday dinner when I was out of town? It still happened? Dinner happened when I was out of town? Oh, sure. Life does keep going. Fuck, man. It's shocking. Rachel, we love you. We can't thank you enough. Such an honor to meet you. You guys are fantastic. So busy. Thank you for saying yes. No, you're so cool. Thank you.
Thank you for having me. You guys are really awesome. And I'm very, it makes me, I have to say just briefly, a little earnestness. There's a lot of crappy podcasts that have a lot of listens in the world. And it makes me happy and heartened that you guys are so successful with this because you guys are nice and interesting and kind. And that is not usually what sells in this world. And you guys are doing, your success in this world makes me happy.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We feel the same about you. You're, you've done so much for, for so many people. And, and, uh, I think you're doing, I think you're doing a great service to the world. So thank you. Yeah. Thanks guys. Yeah. Rest up. You've got a busy year ahead of you. Um,
Thank you for spending a little time with us. Yeah, and one of these days I'm going to stop you in New York and then we're going to have a proper meal. Just have the van pull over and then just get out. A little ether cloth. You just put it right over my nose and throw me in the van. That's how everybody else does it. That's hysterical. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you, Rachel. Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye. Bye-bye.
Wow, JB. Well, that was a good one. That's the first time my pit started sweating before we started the podcast. Yeah, I was a little nervous too. But you didn't even know who it was, did you? No, when she came on, I was nervous. When she came on, I was like... That was all-star shit. She's so fucking smart. I'm scared to ask anything because I'm going to sound like a dumb shit.
Well, but I mean, that's, I think... You don't need Rachel Maddow for that, Sean? Well, we have the title of the podcast to cover all that. You know, we're not claiming to be investigative journalists. Nobody's having us on MSNBC, okay? That's true. But I'm so glad the way that that went because I knew that, obviously, it's kind of baked in that it's going to be political and we try not to be overly political on this show. So it was nice to have a conversation with somebody who is so political and
to have it not be, you know, kind of burn it all down. Well, and also not just political, but also really fucking smart. Yeah, really smart. And also, like, as I said in the thing, it's like, it's not...
left versus right and right versus left. It's really more about everybody's entitled to have their thing. Yeah, it's just about like, let's, cracking it open. People like her crack it open and shed light on it and go, this is actually not the way this is. This is not actually quite fair. Let's look at it and be honest about it. That's it. That's it. That's it. Yeah. Yeah.
And she does make the medicine go down real easy too. I just love the way she shapes stories and points of view. She helps my brain get a little bit calmer based on the way that she's able to articulate some of the stuff that's going on and maybe some of the things we might need to watch out for. You watch her every night or when she's on? When she's on, yeah. But I'm watching Nicole Wallace and Chris Hayes. I know. How much...
How much more do you think that you could get from it if you had less gummy? What I'm trying to do is gummy to news. I'm trying to offer that. See, there's a combo there that you're trying to get right. What's the right mix? What's the perfect? Well, because I'm not able to really comprehend a lot of what I'm listening to or looking at, so there needs to be a tonnage of information coming in. Your high is bejesus. I mean...
It's not true, listener. He's really taking a run at me. I took one on Sunday. It was delicious and it was amazing. Did you? You had one? I had one on Sunday with Jay. Jason didn't have one. I had one. Yeah, right. No, I watched. He watched me. So you guys did have dinner on Sunday without me?
Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And we do it again, too, next time you want to go out of town and not be with us. Yeah, yeah. But you know what? To your point, Will, about the industry. Here we go. Fuck me. Nobody. See you coming a mile away. It's like left or right. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter where you are, left or right. It's like we all have to get along. We all have to let bygones be bygones.
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