"Michael Stipe"
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Hey guys, my name's Sean. I like long walks on the beach. I'm a cancer. I like sweets, cake, cookies, ice cream. I have a little bit of a belly. If you're into that, call me. Welcome to Smartless. Smart. Less. Smart. Less. Smart. Less.

Will, when we were chatting yesterday, you were on your walk. Yeah. And Jason, I don't know if you've ever called Will on his walk, but it's all uphill. Yeah. And it's... So, wait, what's going on? What are you doing tonight?

That whole time. I'm sorry. And I was like, just call me when you're done. No, but it's a great way. What ends up happening is it's a great way for me to stay out of my head because it is a tough walk. And then all of a sudden I'm like, oh, wow, I'm halfway done. What do you guys talk about? On the phone yesterday? Yeah. What we were doing that night. We were talking about what he's doing that night and about I was asking him if he was going on that trip that everybody's going on next week to see that thing in that place. Oh, right. You mean tomorrow? Yeah.

No, is it tomorrow? Oh, it's Friday. Yeah, sorry, tomorrow that you guys are all doing. You can say what it is. Why not? Yeah, it's the go see you two at that new sphere thing. And you guys are all going. Sean's not. Are you, Sean? I'm not going. JB, Sean's not going.

And then I was like feeling guilt about it a little bit because, I don't know. Well, you just got back from London, you know? Yeah, you just got back. You got a bunch more sleeves to cut off your Liverpool t-shirts. You're going to be busy this weekend. This is an old t-shirt. Is it? Yeah. Oh, is it? Does Justin know that it's missing yet? I only do it when I'm doing, when I'm on like my walk or working out.

Do what? Cut sleeves? Wear a sleeveless. Yeah, just because I get so hot. Alessandra is so amazed by how much... Specifically on your biceps? Yeah, it gets...

Hot guns on your walk. I'm going to make a t-shirt for Will that says hot guns. Guns hot. Can I just tell you something? I was about to, I was walking down the stairs to come down to set up to do this record and Alessandra goes, what are you doing? And I go, oh, I'm going for my walk. She goes, but are you doing smartless? I go, yeah. And then she goes, and I was like, fuck yeah, you're right. I might take some heat. But then I was like,

I'm already pot committed, so fuck it. And it'd be good for the opening. Pot committed Vegas. Oh, see, you would be great at Vegas. Can I wear this to Vegas, do you think? I'm very excited to see the whole sphere. I know, it's going to be cool. I know, I am too. It's going to be cool. I wasn't asked to go, but I would love to go. Well, you've got six weeks. They're doing a six-week residency there. Yeah, I'll go. Sean, maybe you and me and Scotty and Alessandro will go. We'll zip in and out. Yeah, fine. Just the day. Just the day. Well, we have to go. It's that night.

Oh, well, we'll come back that night. I don't know if U2 is doing matinees. Do either one of you guys like... They should. Do you guys like the tables? Are you gamblers? I love it. I live for it. Really. Sean likes to gamble. What's your game? Roulette and blackjack. His game is losing money.

Don't you remember, JB, when we did the card game with Kyle Gass and those guys back in the day and Jack Black and those guys? And the first time Sean came to the game, we had been doing it for like a month or two, and then Sean comes in. Just was like constantly going, I'm all in. I'm all in. And this is like 20 years ago. And he won like $1,500. And didn't quite know how to play. He goes, oh my God, it's late. I got to go. And everybody's like, you're not fucking going anywhere.

Tried to win and then walked away. Never came back. I know. He tried. Roulette. Boy, that's... I like roulette too. Do you? It's kind of... I thought only people that take cruises play roulette. Who? Craps is great. People that take cruises play roulette and slot machines, right? I hate losing money though. I don't really like to gamble that much.

Yeah, I love it. I tell you what's not a gamble. Uh-oh. Nice segue. Here comes the guest. I tell you what's not a gamble is our guest today. I am profoundly excited about our guest. I have been a massive, massive fan of this person's work for a long, long, long time. In fact, almost as long as I can remember. Not quite, but almost as.

This is a true artist, in my view. Somebody who has, I think, not only created so much incredible music over the years, but also has inspired so much incredible music. And I know that from reading from what other people say about him and what he has done

You know, people sort of try to... At first, we're saying that they were the first kind of really great American post-punk band. I like to think that they are the first really great, and probably without embarrassing them, really first great sort of indie band in a way. This is somebody who is...

Just in his own right, a great artist, a visual artist, a photographer, a filmmaker, but also an incredible songwriter, singer, band member, just all-around great American icon. You guys, it's none other than R.E.M.'s Michael Stipe. No way! Oh, my God. I was just thinking about him the other day. No way.

Michael, reveal yourself. There he is. Hey, guys. Oh, my God. Michael Stipe. This is so weird. I was just thinking, I think, yesterday or the day before, like, we got to try to get Michael Stipe on this show. No shit. I swear to God. Oh, my God. I'm a huge fan. Good morning. Well, right back. I'm a huge fan of each of you guys as well, so I'm really happy to be here. Great to meet you, man. Thank you. Good one. Good one. Real good one. I've been...

I often listen to a lot of your music, Michael, from over the years. And of course, in the last few days in anticipation of meeting you, I've been listening to a lot and really introducing my teenage sons to like this morning waiting for the bus, in fact. And...

We were listening to Fall. You should buy a car, Will. I know. It's time. It is true, but I like the bus. Okay. And I just, you know, like I started going down memory lane for you and I can't imagine what that's like for you as people start to talk to you about the sort of, you know, the entire catalog of music that you've created over the years. Do you, and I've asked people this before, do you feel...

I don't know, do you feel the sort of the weight of this sort of breadth of work that you've created? Is that something that occurs to you? Do you understand it? Can you appreciate it without, you know, as much as you're comfortable talking about that kind of thing?

Yeah, I mean, I always love it when people walk up to me and say, you know, this or that song really meant something to me at this point in my life. And thank you for being there. And, you know, it's really always about the music. But I feel like it's my job, you know, moving forward in time to be graceful about that when it happens. Sometimes people also just don't like me, and that's okay, too.

I don't know anybody. I live in New York, so it's not like L.A. It's like people tell you what they think, and sometimes they yell it from across the street. And so you get that, too. But let's start at the top. I like the sleeveless look, Will. Thank you for having me on. I got the memo, so I wore red, but I didn't take the sleeves off, so I'm sorry for that.

It's not too late. Yeah, we can wait. It's not too late. And I'll see you guys in Las Vegas because I got an invitation to come. Oh, that's great. Are you going? Oh, I can't wait. Well, I have to figure out exactly when, so maybe we can coordinate that afterwards. I'll pick you up in Will's bus. Will's bus.

I am coming to the West Coast soon, which is... I'm kind of allergic to Los Angeles, so it's going to be... We can hold your hand at a nice dinner. Yeah, come and have dinner with us, man. Well, I'm a transplant. I lived in New York for over 20 years. I've really only been here full-time for 10 years, I guess, almost. So I get it. And it is...

It's always an adjustment. I spent years living in New York and then working out here. Remember, JB, when we were doing our thing and every weekend I would go home? Yeah. I'd be like, I've got to get back to New York. When we were doing our thing, isn't that sweet? You can't... Well, Willie, you couldn't imagine living in New York full-time again right now, could you? You know, I don't know. I ended up...

I ended up, I don't know if I say falling in love with LA, but I ended up being like, okay. And once I had kids, it kind of changed my, my perspective. Um, but then, you know, I spent a fair bit of time back there, especially in the summer. Um, and, ah,

I don't know, I could. Michael, could you ever imagine living out in L.A. full-time? I did live there for a couple years in the early 90s. That was really fun, and then the earthquake came, and my place got condemned and flattened. No way. And so I moved into Hollywood, and I lived out of the Chateau Marmont for a couple years as my second home. That's a different earthquake. Yeah, that's a different altogether situation. But it was really fun then. It was still really shabby and fun.

and cool and reality TV hadn't happened yet. So things were a little more tolerable. Um, Michael, pardon my, pardon my ignorance. I, I know nothing. I live in a hole. I'm under a rock. Um,

I was a singer in a band called REM for 32 years. That's how people most know me is from my voice. Yes. Yeah, but I've also worked in other things. With the well-deserved compliments that Will was giving you, so in reference to that incredible body of work and creativity and forward thinking and pushing –

Teaching us all how to like enjoy stuff that's a little bit more challenging. Where are you pointing that today? What are you excited about pointing that incredible talent at today?

My own work? Yeah. Yeah, well, it's multi-directional. Right now, as we sit here talking, I'm putting together a show of artwork that's going to debut in December in Milan, at the ICA Milan, which is, for me, really super exciting because it's the first institution show that I've ever done and the largest show I've done in Europe. So that's super exciting. As a painter? Yeah.

No, good Lord, I'm the worst painter on earth. I mean, really, really bad. I established that when I was 20 years old in art school at the University of Georgia. I tried philosophy. That was really uninteresting to me. I couldn't wrap my head around those kind of concepts.

I tried English Lit, I loved it, but I was really a terrible student. And so then I finally wound up at the art school, which is where I belonged, because that's where all the really cool kids were. And that's where you got laid, and that's where you sat around and drank espresso and figured out what the world should look like instead of what it did look like in 1980. And yeah, so no, I'm a terrible painter. Yeah, sculpture, sculpture pieces. I'm working in concrete and plastic.

and plaster. - Oh wow, that's so cool. - And then a lot of photographs 'cause I take a ton of pictures and I've never kept a journal

But I do-- I have consistently taken photographs my entire life to kind of remember, like, "Wow, I met that guy there," or, "We had that lunch or dinner," and, "This is when I visited Lithuania," and that's what it looks like. And I love Brutalism and whatever. It goes on and on. But that's funny you say that you never kept a diary, and yet you did, in a sense, as you pointed out, you have this sort of years of photographs that you've taken over time that kind of document your work.

moving through the world. And also you have all these great songs that are also representative, I think, probably, again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, representative of where you were at at various points in your life, in how you viewed things, potentially? Yeah, I mean, it certainly details my political activism and my kind of coming out of, like, you know, a kind of political, like, activist dark place into, like, seeing the light and seeing, like, who we were as Americans, um,

to the rest of the world and then trying to respond to that or react to that. But I've never been an autobiographic writer. I mean, I had this conversation with, of all people, recently, Patti Smith, and we're talking about

writers who are essentially autobiographic writers and then those who are not. And I tend to fictionalize everything that goes into the words that I write for songs. So as a lyricist, there's maybe like, I'm not kidding, like eight songs in the whole canon of REM and other stuff that I've done outside of that.

that actually are very, very, very personal to me. The rest of it is a lot of imagination. Oh, wow, that's cool. And Patti Smith was a, if I'm right, not mistaken, was a big influence on you early on, even before you started REM. Is that right? Like you were...

You were just like really obsessed with her and were just in... I don't know if obsessed is the right thing, but... No, obsessed is not a bad word. I mean, I just... I bought and listened to Horses the day it came out. I was 15 years old. Wow. And I decided then and there that that's what I was going to do. It was, you know, I was 15. It was really a naive choice. But I, you know, it manifested...

four years later, I was still a teenager when I started REM. And we went on from there. I was insanely ambitious. And I knew what I didn't want to do, which was hold down a regular job. Right.

Right. And are you, are you, we get that, but sorry, can I just say just about that time really quickly, Michael, um, you, you touched on it before, you know, starting REM when you were a teenager and you were at the university of Georgia. Um, and you met, um, Peter Buck and Mike Mills and Bill Barry there in, in Athens and you guys created REM and your first single, I think was radio for Europe that came out a couple of years before your first actual record. Right. Um,

You know, it's funny, I listen to, and it's not hard to find, just that original recording of Radio Free Europe. And what really astounds me, what I love about it is...

from the moment you guys start, it immediately-- Mike Mills' bass, Bill Barry's drums, Peter Buck's guitar, and your vocals feel like you guys are shot out of a cannon. This is your introduction to the world. And there's something really fantastic and youthful and exuberant about that sound that I really-- The more I read about you guys and where you came and how you formed the band, and then you re-listened to that song,

You guys were... There's so much in those first 30 seconds of that song, man. Thank you. Before the singer starts. No, no. It was a combination of like, you know...

It was really just abject fear. And then, again, this absurd, like, this is what we're doing, let's do it. But it's the confidence of youth too, right? Exactly, exactly, yeah. I mean, there aren't words to that song. I was just making sounds that felt emotional. And that carries over to the whole first album. You know, I really was just singing...

feeling i wasn't singing words or narratives until really the second or third record yeah they talk about that was and again was that was it life's rich pageant that you first felt that turning point or trying to think which record it was that was the fourth album that was in 1986 i think and then the one before that is um uh fables of the reconstruction or reconstruction of the fables and that's where i was writing i was i was i started um

fictionalizing the lives of people around me to try to pull myself out of. You know, I realized then that my voice was quite powerful and meant a lot to people, but I also wasn't really singing about anything, so I figured I needed to sing about something. So I did the most obvious thing, which is look around and, like, oh, that guy's interesting. How can I tell his story? And then I would exaggerate everything to...

to create some moment of epiphany for the chorus or to make, you know, in the words of Peter Bach, never let the truth get in the way of a good story. So as a lyricist, I was able to do that. As a storyteller, he's much better than I am. But you wrote one of the great lyrics, I think, in Fall On Me, which is, a feather hits the ground before the weight can leave the air. And I told that to my son, my almost 15-year-old today, and he literally went...

Like, it really hit him. It's one of the great lyrics that I've always just adored. I don't know, there's something about, there's something so magical about that idea to me. Can I pop your bubble, Will? Oh, fuck. No, it's, it was, it had to do with gravity and mass. And it was an actual experiment. I think they dropped a pound of feathers and a pound of,

What was it? Iron? Or what is it in the lyric? I don't remember, but something heavy and then something not heavy. But they dropped an equal amount off of the Tower of Pisa, I believe, and to see if they would land at the same time. Shit, wow. That's where that lyric comes from. I don't think that actually blows your... It did blow my mind. There's something about it. I don't know, but even just as an idea, like of using it in a song, for me, I find it very poetic and very kind of, I don't know, romantic or something. There's something...

He's a very easy lay, Michael. I'm on a cheat date. Yeah, if you want romance, you're barking up the right tree. I'm a little bit sentimental and I'm a little bit... We'll be right back. And now back to the show.

Michael, is there any draw for you to continue communicating and being creative in the musical space anymore? Or are you finding, you know, all of the sort of the itches being scratched in other places?

I can't believe I'm talking to the three of you guys. I'm just going to start there because I'm such a big fan of each of you. This is really such an honor to be on the show. I have 75 things I want to tell you as a fan as soon as you answer this question. Okay, all right. Actually, thank you for asking. I started with the show in Milan. That's happening. That opens in December. It's up for three months.

I'm really excited about it and I'm absolutely fucking terrified. And so I know that I'm doing something right. - I'm gonna do a big Google search as soon as we're done with this and take a look at all this stuff. - You're not gonna find much, but I can, I think I know when you guys are broadcasting this, so I can tell you the name of it. The title is, wait for it, "I have lost and I have been lost, but for now I'm flying high." That's the title.

of the show. That's great. Wow. I love that. But I'm also working on a solo album and it's a bit embarrassing because I started this when I was 19 and I'm now, you know, Methuselah. I've become Father Time as time marched on. But I'm doing my first solo record and it's about half done. That's so cool. Can I ask you what sort of, what sort of,

world that is in as far as instrumentation goes and band size and all that? Not what you might expect. Yeah? Yeah, I mean, I love electronic music and ambient music. Opens with a sitar. It does not. That would be great, though. God, that's a good idea. I knew you were going to say more electronic. I knew it. Sorry, keep going. Really? Yeah. I mean, I really, you know, some of the stuff that we did... It was the shades.

These are actual glasses that I need. I can't see without them. Thank you. So more electronic, huh? Because, I mean, REM was so instrumental. Yeah. Right? I realized really when I started writing music,

on my own and composing because I never wrote music I always responded to what those guys gave me and I'm speaking to Peter Buck Mike Mills and Bill Barry when he was a part of the band and so I always just responded to their music and as a you know I hear harmony everywhere it's actually it's actually a little bit of a problem and and

And then I would hear harmony and melody and then I would compose the words to that. But I'd never composed music myself, so I started that only to find out that it's really a lot fucking harder than you think it is. But I'm doing okay. But I knew right away that I couldn't do some Airsats version of R.E.M. I don't need electric guitar and bass and drums anymore.

because it's just going to be a pathetic comparison to being a part of, in my opinion, and I'm going to toot my own horn here, but I was a part of one of the greatest bands of all time. And those guys, so I'm looking for a different arena to place my voice. Are you going to do all of it yourself? Like are you doing, playing all the keyboard, like all the electronic stuff yourself? No, I can't play a single thing. I'm okay on, everything starts with synthesizer and then...

and drums. So it's pretty beat heavy. I mean, about half of the work is basically disco. - I can't wait to hear it. - Yeah, no kidding. - Oh, thanks. - This is gonna be so cool. - I'm super excited about it. Yeah, there's some really unexpected things that are coming lyrically.

I'm going into some territory that is actually deeply frightening. But again, if I'm terrified, then I know that I'm doing something right and I'm absolutely terrified. So that's good. I think that that's the greatest place to be, I think. I don't know how you guys feel about those moments. You know, you've had those moments where you're doing something or you're taking a...

I don't know, you're taking a risk or you're out on a limb and you're like, God, I'm so fucking scared. And yet I think this is where I should be because if I'm comfortable, then... Right on the edge of what you think you can handle is a good spot to be. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. You mentioned harmony and one of the things that for me was one of the real hallmarks of R.E.M. and I agree with you, one of the great American bands and...

And anybody who wants to challenge me, I'll meet you online. But you... One of the real hallmarks of R.E.M. was the incredible harmonizing you did, especially you and Mike Mills. I...

I challenge anybody to find something that's more, I don't know, musically pleasing than listening to you and Mike Mills harmonize with each other on songs like Like Fall On Me or on Superman, which I didn't realize was a cover. And I saw the video of you guys with the original writer back in 86 from in Illinois where you brought him on. But also one of the great...

like harmonizing. It's just mind blowing, man. Well, that's Mike. That's really, that's my, I mean, Mike has a, Mike, Mike and Bill are incredibly musical. But, but, but Peter is encyclopedically, you know, knowledgeable about music. I'm not, I'm a complete, like, I really don't know the first thing about music. And I hate to break it to you, Michael, I'm gonna interrupt you. I hate to break it to you. You're really good. And so, so as uncomfortable as that may be, send him some REM albums. Well, I, I will. And, and,

But what was that first moment like when you and Mike and Bill potentially did harmonize? How did that come up? Do you remember that? I remember the moment when vocal arrangement became a concept that I was like, oh, holy shit, that's a thing. I knew about musical arrangement, but we were working in Memphis in 1986.

And we were in a studio that was kind of mostly country music. But in the other studio was Mavis Staples and her producer, Reverend Al Green. And then this guy who I saw all the time at the coffee machine. So finally I was like, are you a musician? Are you a singer? What do you do? And he said, oh, I do vocal arrangement. And it hit me. It's like this...

like seismic blast, like took my face off. And I was like, fuck, you can arrange vocals. You can arrange vocals. Did I say that right? Did I mess it up? No, you didn't. He was the vocal arranger for Mavis Staples and Reverend Al Green. And I was like, wow. And so then I was like, hey, I have an idea. I have an idea. I have an idea. And Mike would sing most of them. But eventually the band were making fun of me because I was doing like all these harmonies that were essentially the Beatles. And I...

I famously or kind of infamously didn't grow up with the Beatles, so I love the Monkees and I love the Archies and I love the Banana Splits, but I was a kid and I didn't have an older brother or sister who really loved music. And I have an older sister who I love immensely and she's got incredible taste. But at the time, you know, no one listened to the Beatles in my household. So anyway, I wound up kind of recreating something that it was always in the background for me.

But Mike is the secret sauce there. But you were doing it before you knew what you were doing, I guess is my point. Well, they knew. He knew. I didn't know. But I also love your candor because you know that thing where people go like –

They'll reference like a song or like a film or a book or something. And they just go, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. And you're like, no, you don't fucking know. And I love that you were just like, I didn't know the Beatles. I didn't listen to them in that way. And I think a lot of people have revisionist history when they talk about their own story.

I don't even know how to spell it or why they were called. Sean just found out why the Beatles were called the Beatles. What was that, Sean? Spelled B-E-A. Yeah. I didn't know it was like the beat. They're making a beat. I thought it was the answer. That's a funny thing to not know. That's one of them. It is a funny thing to not know. We have a shot in hanging out with this guy, Michael. It's a really funny thing to not know. Yeah. And he thought Kennedy was assassinated in D.C.,

He did. It's a fountain, really. He did. Michael, we went on this tour and we went and we walked, where we drove by, like the Washington Monument or something, JB? Yeah, and he said, huh, isn't this just about where Kennedy, as he's looking over both shoulders, Kennedy was assessing. And Jason goes, no, that was in Dallas, you fucking idiot. Yeah.

Welcome to America. Michael, go ahead. Go ahead. No, no, you go, Jay. No, Sean, it's your turn because I know we're all... Yeah, I can't wait for this. Michael, hi. I'm Sean, and I'm a huge fan of yours. You know, when I was in high school, you basically were one of the... You know, we had Depeche Mode on as well. Failing out of high school. And high school, yeah. 88 was the first time I heard...

Oh my God, the album's so embarrassed. In 1988? The album that came out in 88. It would be green probably. Green, right, green. I know every song, every word. And so, anyway, so you along with Depeche Mode and all these, but like Tori Amos and 10,000 Maniacs and all these other groups that I absolutely loved. I was like a, I was a music major. So I've tried to listen to as much music as I can.

music as possible and you were part of my defining you know young childhood young adulthood you were a major in the music army it's yeah it's a big deal to meet you and you mean a lot to me so that said I have just a couple things I want to say that said I have some notes yeah

One is I sat right next to you with our friend Jimmy Burrows in a play that Woody Harrelson was starring in. And I sat right next to you. And I don't think you knew who I was or whatever. And you had glitter on your face. And I thought, he's the coolest guy in the world. And I was so nervous. I never said hello. So I'm glad I'm saying hello now. And I was like, Jimmy, I said to Jimmy, I was like,

That's fucking Michael Stipe sitting right next to me. I was freaking out. But anyway, and then talking about horror. Tell me, I always need to know plays first. What city was that in? New York City on Broadway. Woody Harrelson was starring. What play was it? I don't remember.

I don't remember the name. It was years and years and years ago. I go into blackout with like weddings, funerals, and plays. Afterwards, I'm like, I don't know. Jason wakes up in a blackout. Yeah. Jason can't remember anything. We can talk about something we did last year and Jason go, I was there? Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. But anyway, so the other thing was harmonies, what Will was saying. You know, on Something Is Out of Reach, that 10,000 Maniacs song that you sang backup on, that's when I was, I was on the entertainment committee in college. We'd get all the bands. I tried so hard to get REM to come, but we got 10,000 Maniacs to come, and I was practicing piano in the rehearsal room where there's like 10 pianos because I was a piano major. Right.

Right. And Natalie Merchant is right across from me playing at college. I'm like, oh my God, because she was performing then actually. And I thought, I dreamed that Michael Stipe was going to come on stage and sing harmony to that thing. But my last thing I wanted to say, but you didn't show up. But the last thing I wanted to say was I was dating this guy and losing my religion. You know, the chorus, oh God, how does it go? Uh,

I'm too nervous now. I think I thought I, yeah. There isn't a chorus. There's not a chorus. I think I thought I saw you try. Yeah, I think I saw. I think, so I was dating this guy and we were trying to sing your harmonies, right? And I think I saw you try to try, whatever. And he couldn't do it. I stopped dating him. That'll do it. Good move. Good move. Way to go. I was like, what are you talking about? How could you not? It's just the third. It's just third. You sound like you had it pretty wired though. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

I think I thought I saw you drive. Michael, am I right in remembering that you dipped your toe in film producing for a period there in the 90s or early 2000s? 25 years. Yeah? I was a film producer for 25 years. Really? Yeah, I kind of stopped.

Did you love it and then didn't love it or always hated it or miss it and loved it the whole time? I loved working with people in the film industry, all the creative people, but all the money people drove me up the fucking wall. And it's just so fraught with compromise, you know, with music and with art and with photography and with all the things that I really kind of express for myself.

I'm able to really be as wrong as I want to be and completely uncompromised. With film and TV, it's always a compromise. You guys know that much more than I do. But that said, you know, I worked with some incredible people. I made some incredible lifelong friendships. And Woody Harrelson being one of them, we're very, very...

He and Laura are like the dearest people to me. And Natalie, actually, speaking of Natalie, I saw her perform recently in Chautauqua, New York, with a symphony. I'm a huge fan of hers, too. She's incredible. But yeah, I produced Being John Malkovich. I'm really proud of that. I didn't know that. That's incredible. I executive produced Velvet Goldmine with Todd Haynes.

Do you talk to Todd or to Spike at all anymore? I talk to Spike all the time. We used to live across the street from each other. Oh, yeah? I love Spike. He's one of the funniest dudes. I met him when he was a teenager through Jane Pratt. Oh, my God.

She was doing a magazine called Sassy, and they had a skateboard boy version of Sassy, and Spike was one of the two guys that were a part of that. So he was a kid when I met him. I was also a kid, but anyway. Such a filmmaker. Yeah, we kind of grew up together, and he's amazing. And then my best friend Jim McKay, that's kind of more the Hollywood –

at part of my film production was, was, was much more, uh, truncated than the work that I did out of New York, which was more independent film. Did you ever think about maybe scoring a film? Yeah, actually the band scored, uh, a film called Man on the Moon with Milos Forman. Oh, right. Oh, sure. Based on, based on a song that we wrote called Man on the Moon, which was about Andy, Andy Kaufman. Yeah. And, uh, the, the comedian. And, um,

It kind of brought Andy back into, as he had died and had kind of been forgotten. And this friend of ours brought some VHS tapes to a studio in Seattle, and we were there working, and I watched the tapes, and then there was this piece of music that the band loved, but I couldn't find it, couldn't find it, couldn't find it. And I went on a long walk the last day that we were in the studio, and I wrote Man on the Moon walking around the blocks of downtown Seattle. Wow.

Recorded it that night and we gave it to the record company the next day and that was that. No way. It's crazy. I mean, that really happened. That's super nuts. That's magic. That is crazy. I love hearing those stories when bands... I remember the story of like reading somewhere that Paul Weller talks about writing That's Entertainment in 10 minutes coming home from the pub and I'm like, you know, one of the jam's great songs and being like, wow, that's amazing. Or like you writing Man on the Moon, a song that everybody knows, a massive hit that was so like, you know...

know,

and that you wrote it walking around and gave it to the record company the next day. But then someone heard the song, fell in love with Andy Kaufman all over again, wrote a script, and it got into Milos' hands, and he's one of my heroes. Yeah, what a filmmaker he is. And he put together a great cast and made a great film, I think. But the band wound up scoring that. I want to ask you about Thomas, if you don't mind, and we don't have to if you don't. My boyfriend? But just being in a relationship.

- Oh yeah, my boyfriend. - Yeah, just being in a relationship with another artist. Will thought I was gonna say with another man, but with another artist. - A different man. - What is that like? Because you're both photographers. Obviously he's very well respected. - He's much better than I am. - Tell Tracy and me who Thomas is. - Thomas is Thomas, he's French.

Thomas Dozle, and he's an artist who works mostly in photography, and he's a master portraitist. So he puts me to shame. And so do you guys, what are the heated discussions like? Do you guys get into it about, you know? There's a story here.

Well, I mean, it's an ongoing saga, but both of us love art. And as I said, he's French. And so he has such a different perspective on art and everything growing up in France and growing up the way that he did. And so, yeah, we really get into it. But it's absolutely supportive, you know. But he has opinions, that's for sure. As do I. I mean, we have the type of...

we have the type of relationship where we're able to say really difficult things about everything, but we're speaking here about work.

We're able to say, you know what? That's not, you know, you could do better or try again. Do both of you work with film or with digital photography? He works with mostly film for the serious work that he's doing. We're in our first show together. Actually, not our first show together, but we're in a show together that's opening in Cincinnati in October. It's a group show about collage. And just this morning before we got on the phone, we

He sent me the two images that he's putting up there. It's two nudes. It's a woman named Rihanna Kubik and a guy named Jesper Just.

both very, very different, both working in art. But they're this incredible, like, I wish you could see them, but they're these really, really stunning portraits. So he's a great portraitist along the lines of Peter Hujar or, gosh, I can't even think of who else, maybe Richard Avedon. And I'm more of like a snapshot guy. Like, I snap pictures as a diary, and sometimes I'll see something that catches my eye.

I see things differently than regular people, and so I'm able to kind of present a different perspective. But what he does is profoundly really thoughtful. We'll be right back. All right, back to the show. I want to say two things. One of the things I liked that you kind of talked about was in kind of getting into things and whether it's about work or in your personal relationship. I've just recently in the last week been talking with a friend of mine about this concept, this idea that

When a relationship, if you will, between two people is strong enough that it can sustain each other being able to feel free to do what they need to do and express themselves in a way that's okay. And when it can support that, there's something really magical about that. When we can be comfortable enough...

to have differing opinions on things because I think so often, I don't know, I don't know about you guys, but I've been in places before in relationships where it wasn't strong enough. And so that when you do kind of strike out and have a differing opinion, it kind of falls apart. Yeah. There's something really great about when it is strong in that way. Yeah.

Well, luckily, politically, we're aligned, and that makes dinner conversation much easier. We've been together a quarter of a century, so we've worked out the kinks. I mean, there's not a place where... I mean, I think with any... You guys know this. I mean, you've been around... I'm a bit further down the Methuselah trail than you are by about 10 years, I think. But, you know, communication is everything, and if you can't...

If you don't have that, then you're just kind of screwed, you know? Yeah. Okay, wait, here, Michael, you like times and dates. I didn't run into you. I saw you once. It was a great—I was 24, and I was on 7th Avenue. None of it exists anymore, but I was on 7th Avenue in 20— I lived between 7th and 8th on 21st Street in Chelsea for years. Okay. And I saw you at this, like, weird restaurant. I'm like, what the fuck is Michael Stipe doing there? And you were having coffee outside, and—

At this really... Anyway, it was a great sighting. I remember just walking by, trying to be cool, and going around the corner and saying to my friend, like... Yeah, yeah. On 21st? I can't picture... You were on 7th Avenue. It was 1994. On 7th, ah, okay. There's no way you remember it. But it was, like, for me, a great, like...

You know, just trying to walk cool and be like, does my walk look stupid at my walk? How do you walk? How does somebody walk normally? Just walk normally. Walk like a human person. You know what I mean? That's sweet. Wait, so Michael, I have a question. How old were you when Murmur came out? 22, I think, or 21, 22. 21, which means you started writing, like you said you started writing. Wait, I think, yeah, no, no.

I'm, it's, I'm, I was born January 4th, 1960. So I'm, every decade, I'm like four days, I'm four days behind. So I'm now 63. It's really easy to do the math. You were, I was 13. So you're 20. I think it came out in, I think, yeah, 23. Yeah. Yeah. So you're 23. And it means, meaning, like you said, you started writing in high, in high school and when you were a teenager. And so my question is, because I've always, I'm always fascinated by people like you who

How did you get in touch with your emotional side at such a young age, such that you could feel fearless about expressing yourself through music? Like most teenagers have angst and are naturally emotional anyway, but to feel safe enough to write them down and then sing is a whole other level. How did you achieve that?

Wow, that's such a good question. Maybe unanswerable. I mean, well, I love what you said earlier, Will, about Radio for Europe, because it was fear. I mean, everything was an ambition and audacity. It was all the A words except for F, which is the fear word. But...

We grew up in public. We didn't know what we were doing. Peter couldn't play guitar. I didn't know. It didn't occur to me that to be a singer in a band, I had to write words and then sing them. I mean, I was like, yeah, this is great. But it's a lot of work. The Ramones emerged...

They were like this remarkable thing that just the second you saw them or heard them, they had a sound, they had a look, they had names, they had an attitude, they had all the photography down. They were locked in.

From the first moment we ever saw them, R.E.M. grew up in public, and so it took me a couple of... I mean, people don't believe this, but I repeat it over and over again. We were working on our second album before I realized that the bass guitar was the one that made the low sounds. I didn't know the difference between a bass and a guitar.

The bass has four strings on it. So you really didn't know anything. That's how I knew that was the bass. It had four strings. But you knew you could sing. No, I didn't. I only figured out in like, it was the second to last record that we made. Well, how did you find your way into a band? How did you start the band? Am I right? Was Peter...

Buck, one of you was working at a record store. Was it Peter? Peter was, yeah. He was working at a record store and used to come in and buy Patti Smith records or something. You're never going to believe this, but at that record store, that record store is still there. It's in Athens, Georgia. And you'll never believe who's going to be there in early November. Who's that? Mickey Dolenz from the Monkees. No way. Has covered four R.E.M. songs and released them on an EP. And they are fucking fantastic. And he covered one of the songs that,

we only wrote because it's called Shining Happy People. It's very fruity. I love that. With B-52's Kate. I love that song. With Kate Pearson, yeah. I love Kate Pearson. But, you know, that was us working out our, like, you know, like super pop kind of bubblegum music. It's because of the- Was that on Green? Uh,

Oh, God, you're asking the wrong person. I know. It was on one of those records around that time. Yeah, if we could find somebody in the band. I love how much you don't know your own discography. He has what we call turn the page. It's fucking rad. I think it's so rad. And you know what else is rad? You mentioned the Ramones had a look and everything. You guys had no look.

Almost by choice, it seemed very like there's no artifice, no nothing. We're going to plug these instruments in and we're just going to sing and play music that sounds good and it's challenging, but it's not alienating. By the way, JB, think about this. Especially in a time, Michael, you can attest to this,

where MTV was exploding and a lot of music was about how your video played. It wasn't necessarily about your music. And you guys were all about the music. To me, music was like one of the one places that you could go and not have someone tell you what to think about and not tell someone. Like when I hear music, this is also, I get a lot of stick for this, but it's

it's really what happens when I hear good music, not bad music. When I hear good music, I see a landscape and I see a vista. And it's, for me, it's a very visual thing. And when I write, I'm like,

Putting people in that landscape. It's like it make that makes sense to me. Mm-hmm I hear I see when I hear so first for MTV to come along and suddenly you're looking at like whoever you know Chrissy Hynde and the pretenders a version of what you're supposed to see when you hear this song It really it really robbed me of something super important to them as a music. So what changed your mind? Yeah

Well, Sinead O'Connor, it was when I saw Nothing Compares to You that I started lip syncing. And the first video that I lip synced to is Losing My Religion, which was the biggest hit that we had ever had. It was the song of the summer of whatever year that was. And I'm so proud of that song, and I love the song to this day. I love it.

It was watching her performance that I realized, okay, this is complete artifice, but we all know that it's artifice, and you can actually be moved emotionally by watching this person perform this song, even though she's lip-syncing. Who are your bands? You mentioned the Monkees, etc., but other than Patti Smith, you also mentioned...

When you were 18 or when you were 25, who were the bands that you still-- I have a sort of rotating list of 10 bands that I always go back to, of which REM is one that's always on my playlist. And it's always-- it's you guys and it's the Smiths and it's Pavement and it's like that's where I kind of live. You have good taste.

Yeah, well, thank you. I mean, I don't know. I just like music. Not in shirts. Yeah, like when you were bopping around the Grammys and the MTV Awards and all that stuff, which bands at that time were you kind of really excited to be bumping shoulders with? I'll tell you the truth. I was really excited to be meeting the actors.

Really? Yeah, I'm a real fanboy in that regard. So, like, I scared the life out of Dennis Hopper at one point. And I didn't mean to. I was just so excited and so jacked on adrenaline. And there he was. And I was like, ah, you're amazing. And I scared him. I came up behind him, you know. And he completely, like, he looked at me with that look of, like, Frank. You know, it was so scary. I was like, ah, I scared Dennis Hopper. Yeah, he called security on me. Frank from Blue Velvet. Yeah, he called security on me. What?

I, you know, I loved, I loved Elton John as a, as a, as like, as like a, when I was like a protozoa, you know, um, uh, I was maybe 13 when, um, Benny and the Jets came out and that song to me, I was like, what the actual fuck is going on? What is it? Like, I couldn't, I knew even then, like, I didn't know the first thing about pop music or radio music or nothing, but I was like, this is something I've never heard before. And the same thing happened when I heard Patti Smith and then Patti, you know, uh,

I knew about the CBGB scene in New York in the mid-70s and all the bands that were playing there. So when each of them released a record, I was the first guy in line to buy it. So television, the Ramones, the Talking Heads, Blondie, and then the Dead Boys and all these other people started coming, X from Los Angeles, a place that we won't talk about. And...

I'm kidding. I don't despise LA. I just don't know who I am there. It's a real problem. We're going to help you find yourself here. You're going to come out here soon. I'm free on the 9th, so let's have dinner. We're going to have dinner. And we're going to change the way that you look at Los Angeles. First, you're about to meet the most dynamic people you've ever met. And they're all here on your screen. And they're all here on your screen. Oh, my God.

It's going to be incredible for you to meet us in person. It's going to be so incredible. My God, what will I wear? To watch how little Jason eats and how much Sean eats will blow you away. We cancel each other out. We're both the same weight. I don't know how it works. What do you do? Because we always... What is the thing that you do that is...

I don't know. Would be surprising to us. Yeah, that you spend time doing. Yeah. To me, you are the embodiment of sophistication. What is the opposite of that? You're looking at it, buddy. Who are you talking to? I'm the least sophisticated person you know, you've ever met. But you're creating a lot of art. You've created art in so many different mediums now. And so like for guys like us that...

I'm in awe of how you do that. And it's really inspirational, to be honest. This is not false humility. I really mean, like, I'm really coming from you. It means so much to me. But I'm also saying it because, like, so what is the thing, like as Jason said, that we'd be surprised to know that you do that's... That a simpleton might do, you know?

I became a really good cook through COVID. I think we all did. I didn't bake bread. Good for you. I play solitaire a lot. Solitaire, there you go. Solitaire, there it is. But what about cooking? What's your go-to? I'm vegan default, so most of what I make is vegan. But then I'll see a piece of turkey bacon and just shove it in my face. And I'm not proud of that, but it does happen. I'll shove that in my face. I don't mind.

Michael, I do want to ask you just really quickly, not because I just want a quick answer, but just because we haven't gotten to it yet and I don't want to take up any more of your time, but you, one of the great things that you're also known for throughout all this time and you've used your music to advance a lot of causes and things that you believe in and your activism is...

It was just such an early part of your trajectory as a person through the world. And has that continued? I imagine that's continued. And where is it taking you now? What are the things that you're passionate about in your activism?

I try to encourage and support younger generations and the work that they're doing. I thought that my generation, which was, I'm really just, I think I'm about 10 years older than each of you guys. Yeah, you're exactly 10 years older than me. I really thought that my generation was going to be, you know, I took a course when I was in

seventh grade, I believe. I remember the teacher was Miss Enoch, E-N-O-C-H. And the entire year's course was about environmental science. And it was about pollutants and energy sources and how my generation was going to be the one to lift us out of this darkness and to move forward into this progressive world.

future where we're not dependent on oil or gasoline and the air is clean and the oceans are... The plastic situation that we have now never existed in whatever it was, 1971. And I really believe that. I mean, I'm that naive. But moving forward, there is that energy that youth has and...

to actually pick something up and place it somewhere else. We find ourselves faced with much more than environmental disasters right at the top of the list. But there are so many things as Americans that we have. You know, I just think we're like, we have really shitty karma as a country. And that has to be addressed in some way. And we're seeing that happening.

happen in real life right now. I'm very concerned for the future, but that said, I'm an incredible optimist. So yeah, there's, I mean, I don't know what, it's quite scattershot, but

I've been in the band and continue to be actually as a non. We're no longer together for about 11 years, but we continue to be a business and we support and encourage as much progressive activism as we can. Think about it, man. If there's one thing I want to say to this younger new generation is the only place you can start is

a feather hits the ground before its weight can leave the air. That's right. And when you can fucking understand that, we can solve fucking everything. Michael Stipe, we have absolutely monopolized way too much of your time. Yeah, I think we're out of time. Oh.

Oh, Sean, very nice. Very good one, Sean. Guys, that's why I'm here. What an absolute honor and thrill to meet you. Huge honor. Again, just been such a fan of yours for so long. So much of your music played through various stages of my life. I can think of them vividly. You and your voice and your songs are part of my soul. Same here. Well, you guys kept me going along with Team America, I think. You guys kept me going on the tour bus.

for tour after tour with my former band. So the gratitude has returned. Thank you very much. And I'm really pleased to have been here today. Thanks very much. Thank you, Michael. We're going to see you for dinner. I'll see you for dinner. Yep. Yeah. Done. We're coming. We're coming to get you. Thank you, Michael. All the best. Enjoy your day. Bye. Bye. Well done, Willie. Thanks. Wow. That's so weird. I truly was, I was listening to an R.E.M. song in the car yesterday or the day before and I was like, oh.

Perfect guest. Yeah. I just bought like three of his albums because I, just the other day on digital because I never had them. I've only had them vinyl. Oh, yeah. They are one of those bands for me, REM, where I have owned them on vinyl and on cassette and on CD and on digital. I've owned them in so many, every available format because you want to keep them.

you know, listening to their music wherever you are. I just... Yeah, he's... I miss his brain, his creativity, you know, his...

The subversive sort of take on things through music and sound and lyric. Those are the kind of people that we need who being our pops or not pop stars. I mean, I guess across the board. Pop music is so big and vibrant right now and God bless them. But I feel like we're missing a little bit of a counterbalance there. Or maybe I just need to look forward to it. No, I think you're right. I think that we need...

rock stars and musicians who are creating music that's, you know, that's so important who also have something to say who are, you know, that have some depth to it and have some meaning. Yeah, it's like all hands on deck right now to try to trigger better thought.

Sean, have you had any thoughts triggered yet? No, he's just working on buys over there. He's probably on a Google search right now. Rhymes with buy. Read. Resubmit.

No, I like all the music people you both bring on. It's so cool. No, no, I don't have anything. He's going. I do. I think like I'm so surprised. You know, I fucking fell out of my chair when Depeche Mode came on. I fell out of my chair when

when Michael Stipe just came on and all these people come on. Well, I'm falling out of my chair. It really is. I was sitting there watching. I was like, I can't believe we're talking. This podcast is such a gift, just selfishly for the three of us. You get to meet all these people.

Listener, it's all your fault. Thank you so much for giving us an opportunity to sit here and hopefully we're asking some of the questions that you would ask if you were trapped in an elevator with one of your heroes too, like we are for an hour each day. And it's just such a gift that we can talk to these folks. We can talk for hours and forgive us sometimes because I know that people are like,

oh, you know, you didn't, you guys didn't let him finish. We're fans as well. So we trip over ourselves. I know that I do. Sometimes I'm not as. Yeah, we fight for the next question. Yeah, because I'm like, I just, we only have him for an hour and I just want to tell him how great I think he is and stuff. And people are like, oh God, how annoying. And I'm like,

I know, that's how I, that's how I was like, I gotta tell him all this stuff. I ran into you. I sang this song. And this song means, and this song means. I could go on and on about it. And we could go on and on with him, but, because it's always so sad to say. Good. Bye. Bye. Let's harmonize like how the, okay, good. Bye. Hey, we did it. Smart. Smart.

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