"Lisa Kudrow"
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Oh, man. I always forget how chilly it gets when I do a cold open. Man, I probably should have worn a hat. Even gloves would have been nice. But anyway, before I freeze my beans off, welcome to Smart List. Smart. Smart. Smart.

You guys, I mean, don't make me cry. It's been a month and a half. I know, it's pretty wild. I'm so happy to see you in your house in LA. It makes me feel really good. And I know that we're going to see you later. Yeah. Later today. Which is very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very,

Later today. I'm going to put my mouth on both of you right away. Hang on. One lip for each. That's another Sunday. Please stop. Please stop now. Wait a minute, Jason. I know you told us a little bit about your character, but is your character supposed to be clean at all? Hang on. Tell us about your character. This is the start of a typical interview. Tell us about your character. What is it? As a storyteller. Sorry, Sean. You're going to go, but...

No. Well, anyway, I don't really care. I mean, I care, but I mean, like, is he supposed to bathe? No. And that's why I look like, you know...

I mean, there's long hair and long beard and it's not, uh, yeah. Are you anxious to cut it all off or are you like, like, yeah. And we haven't even gone into the teeth of summer yet. Um, I'll be going, going through summer in New York city, uh, with this long hair and long beard. How's that beard going to feel on 16 hour days in the summer in New York? It's going to, however bad it feels, it's going to smell even worse. Yeah. Have you, have you been trimming it now? Cause you've got it at a length that you like. Uh,

Um, no, well, we've, we had to trim it once just for continuity. So it doesn't, uh, get to, but you know, um, um, I, I, I get, you know, people maybe be like, um, should we, should we worry? Is there a hotline we can call into? Well, Amanda, Amanda has been to us a bunch of times and I, and even last, you know, to anybody who'll listen. And then I, last weekend at dinner, she was,

she was chewing somebody's ear off about. And then he just looks like somebody new and different. I heard her. I forget who she was sitting next to. Scotty. She was sitting next to Scotty. No, I know. Well, it's just about different, right? I mean, I look like somebody other than the person who's been sharing a bed with her for 25 years. Right, right. She's just seeing flashing green lights all over the place. I actually think it's handsome. It is handsome. Thank you. I mean, maybe with a little trim of the beard, but hair.

Yeah, you know who doesn't dig it? Maple, my 12-year-old. She's just, she'll barely look at me. Well, all she wants is Marty Bird back. Sure. Nice and short hair, you know, some kind of a banker look. What about the sleeve? Does Marty roll his sleeves up ever? Because Michael Bluth rolled his sleeves up. Well, he was always trying to get down to business. Well.

You know, Will, I think about that every time, literally, that I turn up my sleeves. I hear you go, well, let's get down to business, sir. And, you know, you're not wrong. No.

But yeah, so. But you're feeling good though. You're happy to be home. I'm feeling good. I'm very happy to be home. I cannot wait to see you guys tonight. This is the first time we've done one of these for six weeks. People don't realize we sometimes bank episodes and we had to do that because you were directing. So we were two months ahead.

Right. How are you feeling at the end of your directing? Did it go, did everything kind of pretty much go where you wanted to? It went even better than I'd hoped. And that was because everybody came together so, so well. The crew and the cast. Yes, Amanda said it was going really great. Yeah, I can't wait for people to see it. Really, really proud of it. And it's called Black Rabbit. It's called Black Rabbit. We're super excited. But for...

For some odd reason, you know, Netflix, God bless them, they're not dissimilar from other companies in that like right around when Star Wars started to get rekindled and Marvel started to go and people really tried to like steal scripts online and like get a jump on things and like release spoilers and stuff.

all studios went to a pseudonym for projects. Right. Regardless of their, you know, budget scale. Like, this ain't Star Wars, you know? I mean, it's a great thing, but it's not. Sean, I'm out. I was directed at you.

So we had to come up with a pseudonym per Netflix. And I was so like, oh, my God, this is not a Marvel thing. We don't need a pseudonym. And I was so like over it when I got the email. And my dog Gary was just laying on my lap. And so I said, let's call it Gary the dog.

So all over the, so the show is called Gary the Dog if you're in New York. Like all the location signs and the call sheets and everything so that no one figures out where Black Rabbit's shooting so they can't get pictures. Well, now you have to change the name. No, it's, it's. Like it's a state secret. You know, Ted, I'm sorry. He's going to call me and yell at me perhaps. But it's just, yeah, it's, I can't wait for my actual dog to show up on set and everyone will see. You know what that reminds me of? Sorry, it just made me think. When we, years ago, what it is, in 14.

more than 15 years ago, we were, we were in the, we had finished shooting. It was about to be released, uh, Blades of Glory, the ice skating movie. Yeah. Me and Farrell and Amy and everybody. I love that movie. Fun, fun movie. Really fun. Directed by the great Will Speck and Josh Gordon. Our friends, Will and Josh directed him. So I was, I remember I was in a cab going downtown, downtown in New York on Broadway, just above canal street. And I was talking to Will on my cell phone. I guess it was probably pre, just pre smartphone talking to Will. And, uh,

And as I was talking to him, this woman comes up to the window of the cab and she's holding a bootleg copy. The movie hasn't been released yet. Bootleg copies of Blades of Glory. And I said, hey, Will, do you want me to grab you a copy of the movie? We hadn't even had the premiere yet. And a $6 Louis Vuitton bag. You were right there on Canal, right? Remember piracy was like so super bad, like the physical piracy? Yeah. I do that, you know, I went to Allie Wentworth and George Stephanopoulos' house for dinner and I didn't have anything last minute.

to bring as you do when you go to somebody's house for dinner. So I stopped on the street and I bought Jason one of those $6 Prada bags for Ali instead of like a bottle of wine or something. That's going to be my thing now. I'm just going to buy like 20 of them, have them in my closet. And if I don't have anything, I'm just going to bring people like pink Prada bags that just cost $6. By the way, now you got customs on your ass. They're like...

That's a great idea. Guys, let's get to our guest. She's been so kindly waiting. She's a true Los Angeles native, but counterintuitively showbiz wasn't always her career path. She graduated from Vassar with a degree in psychobiology. What a beautiful campus. And then went to work for her dad, a headache specialist. Huh? But one thing led to another, as it so often does in Tinseltown, and she ended up at the Groundlings Institute.

Bit by the comedy bug, she's fluent in French, married to a Frenchman, and I'm guessing loves French fries. All three of us would consider this person a friend, but to the rest of the world, she's one of six friends. It's Lisa Kudrow. It's Lisa. Yeah, Lisa. Oh, with a gorgeous filter on. As soon as you said married to a Frenchman, I knew it was Lisa. Yeah. Michelle Stone. Michelle. Michelle. Michelle Stone. Michelle.

But I'm not fluent in French. Oh, you aren't? No. What about French-Canadian? Yes. Yeah. But you must speak a little bit of it because you're husband. Yeah, I do. I speak a little of it because my husband. So is that on purpose? You didn't want to learn it. You just repeated everything. I know. That's so good. Your mirror work is phenomenal, by the way. Did you not learn the whole language so that you could tune him out when he's really going at you with some stuff? Yeah.

No, he just, he speaks so fast. And I did take it in high school.

I take four years. And you know Will speaks French fluently. Well, you know, I've spoken French with Michelle many times, but he... One cigarette, one coffee. He doesn't... He won't slow it down for you. So if you don't keep up, then he'll just flip to English because he's like, I'm not going to waste my time. Right. I know. Lisa, why do you look so pretty today? Not that you don't always do, but like... Do you have a callback today? Yes.

I thought this was it. I thought this was an audition. Because you know we're not filming this. No, but you look great. Your lighting is good. Your lighting is good. And I love that you have enough self-respect to blur out your background. Like, Sean wants us all to look at his Canon printer. And his little baby Yoda that's hard to get. But you're like, I'm going to be front and center. You look great. Your lighting looks great. You look phenomenal. No, but because it's mayhem.

Here. Is it? It looks like it could be a nice-looking bookshelf back there. Maybe even better than Sean's. Yeah, it is. I'm actually trying to unblur it so you can see. Oh, there it is. There it is. What is that? It's a little blurry. But you know what? That looks really nice like that. It's a shallow depth of field. Because at least you can kind of see this. Okay. Okay, so go ahead. I was going to just get right to can you help my daughter get into Vassar? Yeah. Because we toured that campus. Is she interested, Jason? God, it's...

I don't know if she is, but it looks like Hogwarts. I mean, it's so beautiful there. It's really beautiful. A lot of people end up at Vassar just from the tour. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Really? And then they're disappointed they didn't go to Yale. Yeah.

But, yeah, it's really beautiful. It's so, yeah, it's so beautiful. Was college a good experience for you? I loved it. Yeah? With all my heart. I did too. Now, were you an academic or were you just sort of doing your schoolwork so that you could party? No, she said yeah. I wanted to say yeah to the party. You kept talking. You didn't listen. She answered. I like to drive people into the answer I want. Right. Well...

You've forgotten. It's been a while. Yeah. I was a biology major, so there was no choice but to be academic because that's a big commitment. So what was the impetus for that? So you come out of high school, you're kicking ass in science and math, and you're like, yeah, I'm going to

Yeah. I thought I'll be pre-med. My dad's a doctor. My brother is starting medical school. And I thought, yeah, yeah, I'll be a doctor too. And was that interesting to you? Well, biology was really interesting to me. Yeah. I loved it. I...

biology. I mean, it's such a huge... But what kind of doctor do you think you would have been? I don't know. I wasn't set on that. But halfway through, I went, oh, no, there's no way I'm going to be a practicing physician. There's no way. Because? Because I realized I wasn't as interested in that as I was in... I liked evolutionary biology, so I was just going to continue and do it.

Will's big on creation biology. Go ahead, Will. I went, remember the Paula Abdul song, Vi-Bology?

-No, we don't. -No, nobody does. I used to pretend I was going to virology class. I mean, no offense to her, but nobody does. But wait, so Lisa, so your dad was a-- Sean, did you say that? Did he say it right? Your dad was specialized in headaches? Yeah. So what's that-- Talk to us a little bit about that. And yeah, I work-- 'Cause I got two headaches. I got two headaches on the line with me every day.

Okay, how do you get rid of them? Maybe you can help me get rid of them. It's called recasting. Okay. Well, he got a lot of headaches and he was, you know, like a family practice or internist.

And then decided he would switch to just treating, researching headache. Wow. So was it migraines or just the simple, the common headache? Well, at the time, from what I remember, because I worked for him. Right. From college till Friends, basically. Like in the summers or full time? No, full time. Wow, really? Yeah.

That was my day job, which was really lucky. Where was that? In Encino. Okay. So, yeah. And at the time, there's nine different headache types at that time. Let's have them. So I don't know. Well, we got migraine. Are there different subsets of migraines? Of migraine, yeah. Yeah. Hemiplegic, ophthalmic, classical. Yeah. And do you know how to treat, like, can you, like you and I know your son and like...

The second you feel something going on, you must know all about them to know what to do with them, right? No. All right, great. I mean, a little, but, you know, there's a lot of new medications. My brother's a headache specialist. He's a neurologist who took over when my dad retired. Be honest, is he in bed with the folks over at Bayer? In bed with. But I am, while we're pulled over here for a second, I am, I mean, is a headache...

I mean, it's mostly just like a blood flow problem, correct? Or no? Well, I don't, yeah, I'm not entirely sure. But, I mean. You were answering the phone, is that what you were doing there? You just don't want to have Tylenol? I mean, this sounds like a pretty shady operation. I kind of knew a lot about cluster headache. That was this subset of headaches. That's when you're around too many people? It's not a migraine. What? Is that when you're around too many people? No.

No. And is the classical headache from listening to- No, but that's a good guess. Yeah. Thank you. No, it's not.

You know, I'm just about making people feel good. And by the way, which leads me to, you told me before, we were hanging out at another friend's house. And you told me, I was asking about your family growing up and you were like, I was the least funny in the house. And I was like, what, as a kid? And you said, and I always found that hard to believe. So were you interested in comedy at all? Like when did you, what tickled you?

Oh, well, I just, I'm the youngest in the family. So that's always like the least competent person in the house. Yeah. You get away with a lot. How many siblings? I have two. Okay. And they're older and really funny. And my dad is really funny and he's 91 and he still is. Yeah. And...

So, yeah, I just would repeat what they said, bring it back to school and sometimes get in trouble because it's like six and eight years older than what was appropriate for kindergarten or first grade. But junior high, I did play production where we wrote sketches and performed them. And that was...

Huge for me. That was a very big deal. Was Saturday Night Live consequently like one of your favorite shows? Yeah, I did. I loved it. I did love it. Yeah, same. I used to watch it. Yeah, Gilderad. Was that a gold? Oh, no way. You too, Sean? No way. What a weird coincidence. Sorry, Lisa. Keep going. Oh, you liked Saturday Night Live? Fucking breaking news. What?

Jesus Christ. Here's what's special about me. I loved Saturday Night Live. I loved the Beatles. I loved it too. They were really good. What about oxygen? Yeah, I breathe oxygen. So was it Groundlings? Did you want to go there as maybe a path to potentially become a cast member? No. Groundlings, that was after college. And that really wasn't about, I wasn't,

My goal was not Saturday Night Live, but my goal was to avoid a dramatic acting class at all costs. Right, right, right. Because from what I understood, they seemed like cults and it was just people taking everything way too seriously. Yeah, I was in one once and it was like that. Yeah, it was like people used it as an excuse to not move on in life. Or therapy. Or therapy, yeah. Whereas the world beaters in the comedy class

- Yeah, well, that was the huge revelation was, ooh, the comedy folk are way off. Like there's something really wrong. - Well, also, also it's a lot of fun. - Yeah. - Oh, like you get to laugh and have fun all the time. See, that's a little secret that feels good. - Instead of trying to make people cry. - I know, but let me ask you something. Of all the standups you know, who is more serious?

than a stand-up. - That's so true. - About their stand-up work. - Wait, who would you say is funnier in person than on stage and they're great on stage?

Marty Short is the funniest. Marty Short, Zach Galifianakis? No, Zach Galifianakis is a stand-up. He's the funniest person in person, which is hard to believe because he's so funny on stage and in stuff. Will Ferrell? Ferrell's not a stand-up. Ferrell never did stand-up, right? Conan. Conan. Incredibly funny. We'll be right back.

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This episode is brought to you in part by Liquid IV. So I just was on that family reunion that I talked about that was so awesome, but it was hot, hot, hot. And we were outside all the time, and I was just sweating and sweating. I put sunscreen on. I just kept sweating and losing all that water and, like, sweating and sweating, not only because of the sun, just because there was 26 people in one house.

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This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I talked about this before, but it's very, very dangerous to compare yourself and your life to others. I know it's really easy to do that, especially with social media and looking at people's lives who are like, oh, you know, that person's life seems better than mine or they have more than me or whatever it is.

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And now, back to the show. Having said all that, who, what I wanted to know, Lisa, who is in your class at Groundlings? Wasn't Conan? Conan. So Conan was? I would have quit if not for Conan. That must have been exhausting. Oh, oh, sorry. I thought you were going to go the other way. No. He might make you quit. We'll cut that one, Will. Yeah, you were, tell us about that at the Groundlings. Yeah, it was nuts. Well, I couldn't take

take grounding classes because they wouldn't let me because I hadn't had enough experience with anything. So they sent me to Cynthia Seghetti, an improv teacher at the Coronet, which is now, God damn it. Largo. Largo. Thank you. Yeah. And, and,

I went to the first class and thought, oh no, these are not my people and I can't do this. I commit, I don't know what that means. And they're all embarrassing me with their like, you know, space ball, like with an emotional adjustment, like grrr. I went, I can't do this. You're right. I don't, I,

I think I'm out of acting forever. And then the next week I said, all right, just go. You committed to this, just go. And I was a little late and everyone was up there. It's like, no, no, I don't want to break the flow. I'll just sit here and watch and die. And they were lifting a disc or something. An imaginary disc. Yes. Yeah. Right. Mime, actually. And so one of them was doing it

And it was Conan, this tall, really tall redhead guy, is lifting the disc. And when he's angry, he's just kind of angry. And he's just really lifting a disc or throwing the space ball without too much. And the teacher, Cynthia, was saying, good commitment. I went, oh, that's commitment. It's not embarrassing. You're just really doing it. That is cool. And I thought, okay, that guy. So, yeah.

I made sure I made a beeline to him, said, hi, I'm Lisa. That was really good. He said, I'm Conan. And we became best friends. That's amazing. That's amazing. And is it true that Conan gives you credit for him taking over Letterman? Not credit, no. But a little push.

Kind of. I mean, because he was asked to produce that show. Lorne Michaels asked Conan to be the producer. So they were looking for someone to be the host. And Conan would say, I want someone smart but funny, but who can have a conversation with writers, you know, authors and politicians. And I said, well, that's you.

So you should do it because nobody replaces David Letterman. You're nobody. Yeah, right. You know, so it's kind of the only. And at this point, he was, was he the head writer on Saturday Night Live? No, he was at the Simpsons.

Oh, that's right. The Simpsons. Yeah. Had he been at Saturday Night Live or not yet there? No, he had already been. That's how Lorne Michaels knew him. Okay. That's wild. And you guys have been close ever since. That's so cool. And then you actually went back to the Groundlings to teach, right? So then you became Cynthia. Yeah.

No, while you're at the Groundlings, you can teach. And I taught Cheryl Hines was in my class. Some other people too, and I don't remember. I voted Will Ferrell into the Groundlings. Wow, that's so cool. Nice vote. Not me alone, but yeah. Well, but I would, you might want to do a lap on that one though. Sure. I'd do a lap. An influential vote. David Spade, sorry, just had another comedian who's very funny off. Lisa, have you ever done standup?

No. Well, no. Would you? Would you? No. Why? Because I don't want to write jokes. But what about if somebody wrote them for you? What about being a host of a late night show? Then you're not stand-up. Oh. Well, but what about, let's say, the monologue that the Jimmys do? Would you do that? Would you be comfortable with that? No. No. Could you do late night?

No. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. What do you mean? Like, be a guest? Yeah, would you host a late night talk show? I don't want to host anything. You know what I mean. Okay, now you're being confrontational. See, I think it'd be such a great job. You listen to me. No, I,

Now, Sean, you've done, and Will, you've done, you've guest hosted Kimmel's show. Yeah. So you've done monologues up front there. Is that a comfortable thing? I like it. Yeah, me too. I would be really interested in trying to like that. No, but it's not just the monologues because then you have to interview people.

which you three know how to do. And that can be death. Yeah, I don't think I could do that. Look how fucking shitty we are at it. But we get to like, it's cut three ways. If it was just me interviewing somebody, you'd answer a question and I'd just be nodding at you and going, huh, that's great. I would not have my next question ready. That's the right part of the job. No, that's my fear too. No, but even if somebody gives you the question, no, it would be hard just to give the impression that I'm interested.

But, you know, I'll bet I would love to watch the talk show. And Letterman was kind of good at this too, although he was a decent fellow about it. But he'd still let you see in just a little bit that –

he's not feeling this guest. This guest is not hitting the ball back like they should. Like they're acting like they're doing us a favor by being on the show. And like, I used to like that. I used to like to try to read him. And nine times out of 10, the guest kind of deserved it. They were kind of being jerks and he wasn't helping them and he kind of let them sink. I think you'd be good at that, Willie.

I don't know. I'm just looking at Lisa and I'm remembering. Lisa, have I ever told you this? I'm remembering the first time we ever met. Uh-oh. Do you guys know Sean? We've gone on to work together. Lisa and I did BoJack Horseman together. We've done some stuff, right? Great show. My God. Really great. You were so great on it. But the first time we met,

It was like the first year of Arrested Development. And somehow we were at the Beverly Hills Hotel. There was something going on. You were meeting someone for lunch and you were standing... Do you remember this? No. You probably don't. I know. You told me this. I think I told you this. And you were still on... Friends was still like maybe this last year. Okay. And I was such a huge fan, as you know, because I've bored you with it at least so many times, such a huge fan of the comeback. I mean, I just...

I freaking loved it. What a genius, underappreciated show. You were so brilliant in it, and our good friend Mike Schur was on the staff. And just an amazing, amazing, amazing show. For me, it was a mind-blower. And so I just said hi to you, and we sort of said hi, and I made some stupid joke, and you go, "Oh, you are kind of like your character on that show."

And I walked to my car and I was like, fucking what? I was being funny. I know. I was trying to be funny. It really hurt my feelings. I drove and I crashed my car. I'm so sorry. I know. And I said then, I'm saying it now. I'm sorry. Did you literally get in an accident? You got in an accident? No, I didn't get in. No, I didn't get in an accident. But I was like, I really, because she was like a big star. You know what I mean? And I was like, whew.

Still is. I know. But I felt like a ding-dong. Anyway. Tell my sister Tracy, who's listening from Wisconsin, about... Because I know I still love this story. By the way, I'm sorry. Tracy, I just... I've been gone for a month and a half. I just got home to that really sweet Wisconsin Badger golf shirt you sent. We already talked about it. No, Jason didn't. Well, but I had not opened it yet. I was still in New York. And...

you know tracy i don't like it um no i thought you were going the other way no i love it i love it i love it and thank you thank you thank you that's very sweet but at least for for uh for my sister who might not know this story i always find it so interesting

And a lot of people do know, but if you wouldn't mind, first of all, I want to go, Scotty and I watch episodes of Cheers a lot. Like we'll take like 10 years off and then we'll watch Cheers again. Yeah. And I'm always blown away. Yeah, crazy. When you pop on there, I was like, oh my God, is that one of your first jobs on Cheers? Or is that the first job? That was the first job.

guest starring job on television. With Woody Harrelson. It's so cool. You were so great on that. Like Taft Hartlead. Oh, wow. Yeah. Really? Yeah. And you met Jimmy Burroughs for the first time right there. Yeah. And I think that kind of, that's where I was going. So then Frasier, right, or Man About You then, what was next? Frasier. Frasier. Well, not next after I did other guest star. Apparently I was on Coach like three times. Apparently. IMDB made a mistake. Do you not remember that experience?

That's right. And recently I worked with Linda Lavin and she said, you were on a pilot.

That I did. The casting director reminded me. And you forgot about it. Nothing. It's like those Jennifer, like the Uber Eats commercials where you purge stuff so that you have room for other things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. So when you were Ursula on Mad About You. And that I do remember. Okay. So, and that's the thing that caught what? Jimmy Burrow's attention? The network's attention? Or what?

No. David Crane's boyfriend, partner is Jeffrey Cleric. And Jeffrey was a writer for Mad About You at the time. So when they were casting friends, Jeffrey said, what about Lisa, who's playing Ursula? That might be a good Phoebe.

- Wow. - Right, but you filmed the part of Roz for Frasier before that? - Yeah, yeah, I got, no, no, I didn't film it. I got fired before that. - Oh, let's hear it. - You got fired from Frasier? - Frasier, yeah.

Isn't that interesting though? Is it because you put hands on Kelsey or David or just running around? You know me so well. You had an issue with the dog. Is it put hands on like ringing necks or put hands on cupping somebody? No, no, no. It's striking somebody or shaking somebody vigorously. Well, you know how violent I am. Isn't it wild how just everything works out? Like you don't get that, so you get that. Yeah. It's just wild.

I know. And it was devastating to get fired. Of course. So when you went in for the part of Phoebe on Friends, you knew Jimmy already. Jimmy Burroughs, for those who don't know, directed the pilot and a bunch of the first season of Friends, the great Jimmy Burroughs, whom we all adore. Yeah. So when you went to audition for that, he was already very familiar with you and loved you, evidently. Well, he was familiar enough that, you know, I got fired from the last thing. Yeah.

By the way, do you know when we shot the reunion for Friends or was it there or something else like a Jim Burroughs celebration? Yeah. Where I learned I was the only cast member for Friends that had to audition for Jimmy Burroughs.

Really? Really. Why is that? Because I had just gotten fired from Frasier. Wow. Wow. And he was directing it. So Jimmy had been instrumental in your firing from Frasier. I don't know. He probably could have found it. It sounds like it. I mean, let's...

So he felt bad. He probably didn't want to cast you in Friends. He was like, listen, I already fired this kid once. Give her this job. No, he's not like that. He's smarter than that. No, but when I had my audition, I did it. Let's pull him into this call. Okay, call him up. Can you just hold one second? No, when you went into your audition? When I auditioned, it's just this small room. He's sitting at a desk. I'm in a chair. And the audition was like a little monologue thing. Where was it? Do you remember? At Warner Brothers. Okay. And when I'm done, he just went...

No notes. Yeah. Wow. And I thought, all right. But that's a good... I don't know what that means. That's pretty good. Like it's hopeless or it's perfect. No, you did really well.

Do you remember-- So you do that, that's probably in the spring of like '94, maybe '93, something like that, right? - Mrs. Mary Lou Manor. - Of Friends, where you do the pilot. - '94. - '94, right. So I was right the first time. - No. - I know. - I don't know. - And you do the pilot, you shoot the pilot, and do you remember the different-- Do you have a moment like a year later or six months later where you're like, "Holy shit, my life has changed so quickly"?

No. No, you don't. No, it wasn't like that. It was Mad About You that changed a lot for me because I had been fired from Frasier and then I did a guest star on Mad About You. They had me back. I'd already done a guest star the first season. So now I'm there for a different character and

And my agents had said, you're not doing this. They called like in the morning. Can she just come in an hour? The character is called Waitress. There's no name. And my agents at the time were saying, no, no, you can't. It doesn't even have a name. Don't do this. I said, I'm not in a position to say no. And it's to me the best show. And I'm doing it. And by the end of the week, Danny Jacobson said, you're so funny. Would you be okay doing five episodes?

more episodes just went yes oh thank god you did that there's my rent for the year i don't have to get another day job yeah yeah yeah yeah but then your dad's scrambling to find somebody to hand out the tylenol you kind of screwed your dad over a little bit luckily lisa what what can you say or can you remember do you know why you were fired from fraser i don't

It just wasn't working. I don't know. So you were like midweek, you were like through the producer run-through, through the network run-through or something, and then they made a switch? But during the run-throughs, because Jimmy was saying like, this isn't working, so just don't even... Right. They have to fix it. Uh-huh. Right. Because I was trying to, like, what's not working? What can I do? But I think they did make...

a casting mistake with me because I went to the network with Perry Gilpin. Yeah. And for whatever reason... Who got the part. Yes. And so I think they were just correcting a mistake.

Got it. Got it, got it, got it. Because Perry should have always been Ross. Right, right, right, right, right. Yeah, it's such a funny... You guys, well, we've talked about it a little bit, but you've been fired from a role that you just weren't right for before, have you? I have, I mean, sort of. I got fired and then rehired. Or the stuff that you don't get and then you end up being available for the thing that you... I mean, like, you know, that classic story of you and Rain on Arrested Development. Well, first of all, no, the year before I got fired off that pilot...

that the show became still standing. And when it got picked up for a series and I didn't get picked up, but it never felt right. And had I not been fired, at the time I was like, fuck, what a great job. Had I not been fired, I wouldn't have been available for Arrested Development. And it was the same casting director, Deb Borilski, whom I adore. But can I ask you guys something when you are fired from something? Yeah.

I mean, I know for me, there's that moment of, wow, maybe this just isn't supposed to work out, this career choice. Oh, yeah, all the time. Oh, you did have that when... I have it every day still. Yeah, it's not working out. You know what, Lisa? I did. My thing was like, I was so... I ended up getting fired and I said, I was kind of like, fuck them. And I was living in New York at the time. Amy was doing SNL and I was like, I'm going to do...

I happened to do, you know what? That summer I happened to do, or no, a couple summers before, I happened to do a reading at New York Stage and Film, one of those reading things at Vassar. Yeah, yeah, Powerhouse. Yeah, so you're there for like a week and you're kind of workshopping a new play. And I met this playwright and this director and

and he ended up calling me and saying, I'm going to do this play with the new group off Broadway. And so I was like, I'm just going to stay in New York and do theater and fuck TV. That was my thing was like, they're not firing me. I'm firing them. I'm firing the whole TV business. Like they cared. Yeah, right. That'll show them. But that kind of made me get my head around it and feel better about myself. That's how I dealt with it. But you're right, Lisa. It's so, all you need is just,

one firing and you think,

Maybe I just don't because it's so thin what we do. It's not backed up by credentials and diplomas and four years of finishing school and all of that stuff. It's just, it's so sort of subjective. And also, Lisa, think about it. Similarly to you, within a year, my life changed after that moment where I thought it was all done. Yeah. My life changed forever. It's the same for you. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that's right. I mean, but that's what's important to me, like for younger artists who definitely have talent. And yes, you can be discouraged, but then you've got to pull yourself back up. Like, you know, that can't be your mindset for too long. Otherwise, it won't work out. It's just not going to work. It'll win. That mindset will win. We'll be right back. SmartList is brought to you in part by Audible.

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Lisa, let me ask you this on this subject because I was just talking about it because sometimes, I'm sure you guys have had it too, like, you know, my parents will be like, so-and-so's grandnephew wants to be an actor. Well, you talk to him and I always think like, I want to be generous, but also, and I was just talking about it two hours ago, of what's

What would you do if you were 20 years old today starting over again? It's such a different world from when we all started. Yeah. Certainly the show business is so much different because of social media, et cetera. What would you say to somebody who is trying to do what you're doing? To a 20-year-old you today, what would you say? Well, isn't that different in a... I think it's different in a good way, though. Do you? Because what I had always said was...

say yes to everything except porn.

That was always my advice. Sean, yeah. Darn it. Keep going. But it worked out anyway for you. And that's a joke, everybody listening. No, still say no to porn, I think. I mean, I guess it depends on your level of comfort. Yeah, and what you think porn is. Everything's okay now. That's another issue. But that was it. It was just say yes to everything. You have no idea who's going to see it. You have no idea what it's going to lead to, what you're going to learn from doing it. And now...

Everyone has a camera and can post it on something. The tough part, I think, for me, I would say to somebody, and these are unrealistic sort of parameters, is that, yeah, go do it if you don't need it in order to make a living and also if you don't need to be hired to

to find validation about your talent. Like those are two really hard things to like, my confidence was always tied to being chosen to being employed. You know, like if I, if I didn't get the job, I can't feel good about myself. Once I got the job, I was fucking,

perfect. I was just bulletproof. And then inevitably the job is over and that's tantamount to being fired and you got to go find another job. And until I got that job, I couldn't feel good about myself. And so my self-esteem was always tied to employment and employment is not in your control. So therefore the way you feel about yourself is not in your control. And that was a real tough thing for me. And then also, you know, if you have to, if it's your only way to make a living,

-It's really stressful. -It is. Yeah, I agree, and I think that you're right. And we've talked about this before again, which is I've never believed-- I think it's really dangerous to tie your self-worth into what you're doing. -Yeah. -Right? But at the same time, JB, think about it. Your perspective is different because you grew up working your whole life since you were a kid. Sean and I came into it later from other parts of the world. You grew up in Los Angeles, Lisa, but again, you came from a different world, kind of a whole different world.

Yeah, and I was being employed at a time when I didn't really care about being employed. And then when it became important to be employed, things had sort of dried out for me. And so like I need to make money and I also needed to feel good about myself. And it was just tough. And, you know, it forced me to do some of the work that people should do earlier, which is, you know, get a good base of self-esteem and self-worth

before you enter the workforce. - Right, that's hard to do period. I mean, that's sort of like the whole lifelong commitment. - Exactly, that's the journey right there. - I have something to say about friends still. - Okay, okay. - Just one thing. - Sorry, we gotta call her here, go ahead. - Yes, we were all friends, yeah. Is that it? Okay.

What are your thoughts about the ebb and flow of the show? Because I remember when I moved to LA, Friends was obviously massive. I moved in 95 and it was huge. And then there was a hibernation period after it was over and then Netflix took over and there was this resurgence of popularity. Not that it ever went away, but it just came back. It is massive, almost as big as when it first started. And what was that like? Did you feel that?

that change again? Or were you just like, I'm still here. It doesn't affect me. Yeah, but I mean, it was always on in syndication, so. Right. Yeah. But that's what I'm saying. But even in syndication, it didn't seem like it made as big of an impact as it did when it moved to Netflix. Right. That's what I heard. Well, yeah, but I mean, that's the, speaking more to the phenomena of Netflix than anything else. Right.

It was so popular and it's undeniable, right? So like we're just sort of stating the obvious. It was so incredibly popular and still is, but so popular and also so internationally popular. It was so big. It kind of, it was able to do a thing that very few American shows did, which was sort of transcend sort of language and all sorts of things. I mean, every one of my adult friends in the UK are massive fans of Friends in a way that's really true. Everybody I know is. Yeah.

But at least you went on to you went on to you're one of the few who who You know had such an iconic character on a television show and then you achieved what seems like from the outside the impossible and parlayed that into and broke out of Out of Phoebe which a lot of people can't do. Oh, you did it. You did. Oh, yeah, she'll high school high school reunion opposite of sex

I analyzed this. You were so fucking great and analyzed this. And then... Comeback? The comeback. So that's what I was getting to because I'm a massive, massive fan of that show. Thanks. I've seen every episode. I love it so much. So much. Valerie Cherish is one of the funniest characters I've ever seen in my whole life. Thanks. Truly. And then I was on it, so thank you. And then...

But talk to me about that character and how you came up with it. Is it based on a real person? And if you haven't seen the comeback, see the comeback. It's just incredible. Thanks. I know I'm the most proud of the comeback. Yeah, you should be. It's so great. The most. But how did you come up with that character? Well, I mean, it's a composite of people, honestly. I'm not trying to, you know, be coy. But it just was a composite of people.

Of a lot of different people that, you know, you'd see on talk shows. I had a character at the Groundlings called, you know, your favorite actress on a talk show. That's funny. That's funny. And is that a little bit of Valerie Cherish? Well, it was. I mean, because it was way before Valerie Cherish. Can we speak to Valerie Cherish?

No, I'm just kidding. Yes, you can. Welcome to Smart List. This is nice. Thanks. Oh my God, you actually did it. I love it. I was being coy. All right. Valerie, are you comfortable being on a podcast at all? If it's being broadcast, I'm comfortable. All right.

It's so funny. Wait, okay, so it's a little bit of that groundwork. She says everything like it's a sitcom. Right. Like a tag. Everything she says is a tag or a button. Wait, what? Yeah, a button. A blow. A blow. A blow. It's so funny. Are you going to do more of them?

My God, I would love to. Well, why can't it be Curb Your Enthusiasm? You're just doing a season whenever you want. Well, because Larry David can call up HBO and say, all right, I want to do more. Yeah, but the comeback is huge. The comeback was huge.

Well, yeah, we'll see. Michael Patrick King is busy with And Just Like That. What is your level of effort and interest in creating new shows, new characters? Where does all that sit with you right now? Where do most of your interests lie? That's such a good question. I mean, I've spent the last...

few years being really interested in not producing and just acting and being cast. Yeah. And so I've done that. It's just none of it has come out yet. Okay.

But it will all this year. Is the producing boring? Is it boring? No, it's not that it's boring. I mean, for me, it just felt, yeah, it's a lot of work. It's laborious for very little payoff. Yeah. Yeah. I got tired of making other people money and big money that way. Right. So there's that. But then also it just felt so fraught.

You know, also just with like HR issues and things like that. So I just wanted, okay, I'm not producing. Yeah, because as an actor, everything's done basically. And then you get cast and then you're just a few weeks away from actual production.

You like, you even skip all the pre-production and all that stuff, not to mention all the development and the pitching and the budgeting and all of that. It's just like so many different points, the process, it can go wrong and you can be frustrated.

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's exactly right. I mean, I loved, I produced a show, Who Do You Think You Are? Oh, yeah. Which is not scripted. I was on it. Yes. Oh, my God. That was such a good episode. I mean, it was so fascinating. Yeah. And I loved doing that. I mean, I loved the research stage. Yeah. You know. Wow. Yeah.

the editing and like how you're going to lay out the story for the person to discover and where the documents are found and you know, that stuff. I loved doing that show, producing that. Yeah.

That's great. And that's it. But I mean, everything else is like, wow. And that's it. I don't know. But the comeback, yes. I mean, because I write the comeback with Michael. So yeah. I just love it. It's so good. So wait, really quick. I have something else to talk. I want to talk about Time Bandits because I loved that movie as a kid and now you're in the series. Oh, you did? You loved that movie? I loved it. I've seen it a ton of times. Yeah.

I loved it. I liked it too. I saw it in the theater too. Can you tell me a little bit, Taika Waititi, right? He's directing or wrote it or both? Both. Taika and Jemaine Clement. Yep. What about Ian Morris? And Ian Morris. Yes, fantastic. But when I first learned about it, it was just Taika and Jemaine wrote the pilot.

And I went, well, I don't care. Yes. Do I need to read it? Yeah, exactly. And it's in New Zealand. I've always wanted to see New Zealand. Right. So, yes. They still have the Hobbitville there from Lord of the Rings. Yeah, not where we were shooting. That's not where you were shooting. Okay. And I didn't see that. But it would work well. Because I was busy working. All right, fine. So I didn't see much. Somebody who's got a future in locations. Okay.

So this is a series that you've shot that's yet to come out? It's coming out July, I think, 26th. Nice.

On Apple. On Apple. That's so exciting. I can't wait to see it. I know. I'm trying right now with this system to watch, you know, this Pix thing and they send you and you can try to watch things on it. It's really hard. It's very difficult. Tell me about like a really, if you can, a really crazy groundling theater story, like something that went wrong or awry. Oh God. Fucking Sean. I love it. I love you so much.

I love it. Because I used to go, I used to do a show at the Groundlings. You did? Yeah, with my friend Darlene Hunt. And we, it was... She is Darlene. Darlene Hunt. And it was, it was called...

No, it was Carl. Sorry. And then something went wrong, Johnny? Name of the show doesn't really matter that much. As soon as you wrap this up, we'll get to the answer. Platonically incorrect. Oh, man. Thank God we published it. Oh, that's good. It's a good title, right? Yeah, it was really good.

No, I just had to wear false teeth and they popped out a couple times. Fuck. No, but I didn't know if you had anything. Because we all have the same friends from the Groundlings. We all know a lot of the same people. Tim Bagley. It's the stuff that happened backstage that was bad. That's what I'm saying. That's the best part. Oh, yeah. No, I have a lot of those because I...

I'm always working on my filter with people because I, to me, facts don't hurt, you know? So, you know, like letting someone know like, oh, I don't know about that sketch. It's more of like a ditty.

than a sketch. I mean, you just sort of, like, it feels like it belongs on a cruise ship. So this is a recurring theme. So when you go like, oh, you're just like your character, like, that's just something you're just, you're a filter. Well, no, but here's... Well, but I know I do that. So sometimes that's my joke, too.

Do you know what I mean? Then I'm being the person with no filter. How about just you're not full of shit? And I think that's great. Thanks, Jason. Don't change that. I mean, you know, you're not hurting people's feelings, right? You've got a filter that keeps you from really chopping somebody's legs off. I mean, you know, Will's, you know, you got to amp it up just a little bit to get to him. Yeah. Yeah.

But that, I guess, was rough. And I didn't think it was rough to say, to me, it's just a song. And we were all being asked, what do you think of this piece? Yeah.

To be fair. And that, by the way, was Mike Hitchcock, who's hilarious. Hilarious. Genius talent. Yeah. And then one time backstage at the Growlings, he came and he said, I had a dream about you last night. I said, oh, you did? He said, yeah, you threw acid in my face. He's really funny, that guy. Is that because of the... He's like, that was my dream. Yeah.

Well, speaking of dreams, we've taken up way too much of your time, Lisa. You are a dream. You are a dream. Thank you for coming on, honey. We love you. This was so fun. Thanks, guys. I really enjoyed talking to you. Please say hi to Michelle. I will. Yeah. Ask him if he needs new wedges. Oh. What's a wedge? It's a golf club. It's a golf club. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I saw Michelle twice last week. Oh, you did? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got a silky swing. That's great. I love golf stories. No, that's another podcast. Listener, that's sarcasm. All right, Liz, we love you. I'm sure we'll see you soon. Yeah, I hope so. Love you. Yeah, so great to see you. You're the best. You guys are. I love you. Bye-bye. Thank you for doing this. Bye-bye. Do I log off? Do I get to slam it? Yeah, just slam it or do whatever you want. Okay. Yeah, you can just...

Bye. The great. The great Lisa Kudrow. You think anybody ever calls her LK? Why not? I would call her LK. That's a good. We call you JB, but nobody says WA because that's too much work. No, it's not fun. Yeah. It's tough. SH, not fun. JB is kind of like that shitty. Like a butler. Some kind of a. I don't know where I got that from, but maybe I should. But LK is good to say, right? Okay. Okay.

You should workshop it, man. Yeah. We're doing that now, right? Listeners, go ahead and call in while we're still on. But isn't she good? You know, Jay, you said a while ago about Larry David. You were like, boy, you just did Seinfeld, then you did Curb Your Enthusiasm. You just did really good.

Two things that were, I mean, you did other things, of course, but two shows that were just hit huge. And she did many shows that hit, like, and movies and stuff. And because she takes the time to create characters and, like, specificity of all of that stuff. And she, to me, she's always taken the time and the energy to make something great or make sure it can be great.

Yeah. And, and, and, and, and the whole people I talk to people I hear from or, uh, like just, she's universally thought of as just like high taste, really smart comedy. Um, which, which comes from being a good actor. I think, you know, I mean, she's, she's, you know, she says that she's not that interested in drama or at least she said in the beginning, she wasn't interested in drama class. I'll bet if she took a dramatic role, um,

-She'd be great. -Which she's probably done. -Yeah, she has done, yeah. -But that-- -Opposite of time. -She makes you cry real quick. -Yeah. -Yeah. Yeah, she's awesome. And just such a talent. Yeah, and she's so-- It's funny that-- that she plays that character of Phoebe and friends who are sort of kind of out there or whatever, and yet Lisa is so razor sharp, like so smart. I know, razor sharp. And she got her beginnings, you know,

Being smart by going to Vassar, studying that one science. And working in a doctor's office. Biology! Oh, oh, oh. Yes. Sorry. Bye. Bye.

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