"Kelly Clarkson"
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Guys, who's fired up to do some podcasting? What kind of energy do you feel when you're going to just podcast the shit out of something? I'm going to do it. I raced downstairs. I didn't even take a shower. I put my headphones on. I saw you guys. I got really excited. We're going to chat today, and then I'm going to take a shower. You don't have anything prepared for this cold open? You didn't eat anything? No. I usually have hot coke. What are you holding in your hand? Yeah.

That's for his little wrist when he's typing. Do you do that much typing where you need a little pad for your wrists? I just had carpal tunnel in my hand. Uh-huh. And then what happened? You decided to use the other hand. All right. Good for you. Welcome to Smartless. Smart. Less. Smart. Less. Smart. Less.

So we already know that our mystery guest is a female and she's no stranger to a giggle. She keeps it light. She likes to giggle. Yeah. And that's what we know so far. Are you doing early guessing game? Yeah. Let's start. You know what? Give me the first letter of the first name. No. Okay. First letter of the last name.

No. Okay. Not yet. No. All right. I just decided, I was like, you know what? You know what? No. I should go, yes, and, and I should, right? No. All right. Well, then let's get into our, let's get into our opening patter. Or some patter. Sean, did you have, do you have anything prepared? Here we go. But I'm drinking tea. I was going to ask you, do you leave your tea bags in or do you take them out? Today, mine are in.

That's something sexual about that. I know. There is something. Was the last time you were teabagged in or out? Was I teabagging in? Now, Sean, are you a little bit under the web? He is. And I was just telling Jason, I hope I didn't get you guys sick on Tuesday. And I reminded him. I don't think I did. I reminded him that it was all, there was no open mouth kissing at all. It was all closed. I kept asking you actually to stop kissing and don't look at me.

Because you usually say eyes on me open eyes eyes on me eyes, please eyes, please Hey, that's a good question when you guys kiss your significant other Do you keep your eyes open or do you close them whole time open the whole time? Oh wide open looking at really what I like for reaction I like to stare right into the makeup artist eyes when they're when they're powdering me Really tricks them out. Yeah, no blinking just hard eye contact when they're powdering me. I

Tracy, getting powdered is something that's common and not freaky for people in front of the camera. But Jason, you famously don't wear a lot of makeup when you do your gigs. Well, the stuff I've been doing lately, you're not meant to look healthy or happy. You got that covered. And that role you've been playing for 20 years.

Yeah, I'm going into a new thing where I just don't think I'm going to be much in the makeup trailer at all. Yeah. You got a real look going these days. I know, right? This stupid hair. I think I do need to get it thinned out. No, no, no, no. What a bummer. Hair is too thick. It's too thick. I mean...

By the way, Shawnee, I noticed you're sneezing. No, no, I coughed. That was a cough. Oh, that was a cough. Yeah, but I'm saying if you guys don't feel anything by Saturday or Sunday, you're in the clear. Okay. I got to wait. There's a five-day incubation period on your virus? Yeah. Great. I think we're fine. I think we're all right. What about Scotty? Does he have it? He had it before, but I didn't get sick from him. Well, we know why. Yeah.

Listen, Sean's really on the skids with Scotty. There's a countdown for the... No. I'll be available any minute. You guys are about the best couple I've ever met. I know. We all have great partners.

We do. And I was describing Scotty the other day to somebody who's asking me, and I said, he's just the nicest, sweetest dude. He's so considerate. He is. And he looks like a box. He's in the shape of a box. Okay. Well, I didn't get into that, but... A boxy bear. That's right.

But he is such a sweet, sort of legitimately like considerate person. Yeah, he's the nicest person I've ever met. And not from Canada. I know. You'd think he would be. Shockingly, I know. Because all those Canadians are super nice. Will introduced Sean and I to a couple of Canadians the other day who were just like right out of the middle of the page for like, well, people tell you Canadians are friendly, but like I

I don't know. Well, then you meet them. It's like, yeah. Yeah. They're all like the nicest people in the world. And it's not learned. It's not contrived. It's just so genuine. Well, you know, Paul is Canadian, but Jenny is...

American but has I wasn't getting as nice a vibe off of her yeah that's interesting that's a good point you're getting a selfish kind of self-absorbed something domestic yeah I tell you I tell you he's got a pretty good vibe oh nice this is a segue here comes giggles tell you he's got a pretty good vibe is our guest today do you like him do you like people can do different things

She is a juggler from northern Saskatchewan. They can go on to Broadway. Sean, you like Broadway? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They can go on to Broadway. They can sing songs. They can sell records. They can sell 25 million albums worldwide. 40 million singles. What? Have a multi-Emmy award-winning daytime talk show. Can be really plugged into the heart of America because this person was found...

and discovered in the heart of America. She's one of the most successful... Kelly Clarkson. ...of all time. Yes, guys, it's Kelly Clarkson. Yeah, got it. Hi, Kelly. I was like, hello. Willie guessed my guess the other day. Now I got you back. I know you did. You did. Hi, Kelly Clarkson. Hi, Kelly Clarkson. Kelly, I haven't seen you since Saturday Night Live, maybe? Oh, my gosh. Okay, so I was going to bring it up.

I don't even know if you, I just like, I don't know if you remember that I was on there with you, but of course I was terrified of you. Oh, welcome. I was terrified. I was terrified of you. You were so nice. I just, I was like, I literally, I remember telling my band, I was like, I had like a whole prep talk. I was like,

don't fucking talk. You're going to say something stupid. I was like, just smile and just stand there. And I was like very nervous. That whole week I was petrified. Was that your first? Oh, you did amazing. And you were so nice. I just think when you are a fan of someone so much so, and you love their like personality and they,

you're very charismatic, you're funny and quick. And so I was like, just don't say something stupid. I don't think I even spoke much to you. - You might wanna withhold on the personality part, 'cause you know what I mean? Just give it a minute. - Oh, I'm like a dry wit asshole. So he's right down the... - Oh, well then, welcome to Smart Loose. - Welcome to Smart Loose. - Welcome to Smart Loose. - Sorry, you're gonna love him, you're gonna love him, you're gonna love him.

Now, I have a question about, like, I remember, I'm so sorry you get these questions all the time. That's okay, Sean. Go ahead. In 1999 or 2000 when American Idol first started, and then I remember Megan Mullally, who I did Will & Grace with, she's like, you've got to come watch. And I didn't watch the show until the last. Remind Tracy what Will & Grace is. I love...

No, I'm telling you, I love her and Nick. I'm obsessed with them. They're great. Yeah. I know, I love them too. And they... And Megan called me in her dressing room. She's like, you got to watch this show. I'm like, what is it? It's American Idol. Of course, everybody knows the story. You know, little town girl makes it big on the show and then becomes this big pop star, blah, blah, blah. So, but there's a sense that I've always felt around you that America is like your hours. Like, do you ever...

Do you constantly get bombarded by people who feel like they had a hand in your success? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. But I mean, that's a very true statement. So, um, for all of us. Yeah. I mean, I think it's true for the American audience. I mean, that show is so massive and it was, and you were the first one. And then, so you're easy to root for because everybody loves you and you're so likable and I love you. And,

Debatable, but yes. But to see you go from the little town girl that nobody knew to every single thing that you conquered over the years, I imagine people come up to you on the street and just be like, have a sense of ownership almost in a different way. Yeah, I mean, I think it works for me because, like I said, I'm from a very small town. So I'm kind of used to like that. Like even doing like,

talent shows as a kid or like even doing musicals or, you know, I'm kind of used to like everyone knowing your name. It's like cheers, you know, like I'm used to that vibe. And I think that's why people are always like, oh, you're so, you know, open with like any human. I'm like, yeah. And on your talk show, you're just, you're very open. You talk about everything. Yeah, I do. I love that, Kelly. You're just like, well, it's not really that much of an effort to not be an asshole. Like,

What are you saying? Well, it depends on the person, Jason. Sometimes there's a lot of effort. But no, it's like I think because I have that small town mentality, it's always been very easy for me. And I don't mind. Like I always say, I still at 41, like will be at Walmart in Butte, Montana and go, thank you.

Thank you, because they're like, "Oh, I voted for you." And I'm like, "Thank you. That changed my life." I was a pretty great solid waitress, but like, I really like what I'm doing now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, "Thank you, but now you're blocking my Range Rover." Okay. Wait, Kelly, Kelly, so speaking of that, like, now we're on that sort of the American Idol thing, and I watch you too, like everybody, when that-- especially that first season. -Yeah. -And you were--

undoubtedly, I would say, and I might get some pushback, I think you're the greatest American Idol that there ever was. You were the first and you were the best by far. I would not argue. I'm just kidding. I know you would. I'm just kidding. No, but you legitimately have a great voice. But without such a discovery, would that show have really carried on to the heights that it was? Like, look what they can find. Yeah, who knows? I mean, believe me, it's taking everything I got right now, the entire time I just want to go...

since you've been gone! Anyway, but, and I love, but what was that process for you? How did that come about, American Idol? Like, what...

You know, you saw an ad in a paper. It was on Craigslist. Like, how did that go down? Oh, my God. Craigslist was not around. Was it not? 2001? Was it? 2001, too? Wait, let me see. Can I see if I can get this right? Yes. I'd rather have her answer it, but okay. No, but wait. I'm curious to know if you know it. Craigslist. A friend challenged you or, like, to go on, and if you went on and got on or won or something, you'd get her a car or something like that? So?

Something like that. Yes. I, well, I literally, my place had burned down the Croft apartments off of Melrose. Um, and, uh, it literally the day we moved in, we had moved from this other place and the day we moved in, it burned down. And, um,

I ended up having to sleep in my car for like three days. And I was like, okay, I can't like, I can't sustain this. So my plan was to go back home to Texas, make some more money, come out. Because I don't know if y'all know, but it's expensive to live in Los Angeles, especially when broke with three jobs. And anyway, so I, on my way home, one of my friends, Jebby, Jessica, told me about this audition. On your way home from one of your jobs? Is that what it was?

No, like on my way home from California to Texas. Oh, to Texas. Okay, sorry. Yeah, it was like right after I... Yeah. And so I got home and I didn't know what it was. I didn't even know it was a TV show until like the third audition. Oh, wow. Because, you know, they have you go and...

They had us go in these just random rooms in front of producers. And you don't know anybody. You don't know what they're doing. Nobody had heard of Pop Idol, which there had been one season of Pop Idol in the UK. Nobody knew that. And so I didn't know what it was. Anyway, I told... After I made it through the first rounds or whatever, I told Jebby, I was like... Because honestly, I didn't think I'd win.

But I was like, yeah, I'll totally buy you a car if I win. I won. So I bought her the car. That's amazing. What'd you get her? Was it a new car? It was like her dream car. I think it was like a Firebird or something. It was like over 20 years ago, but I think, I believe it was like a Firebird or something. Firebird. Yeah, it was like something, or not a Firebird, no. It was like a Mustang. A Mustang. I don't remember what it was. It was like a sports car, but it was like badass. But I...

I wasn't, I'm not into sports cars. Were you surprised that you won or had you already experienced a pretty good level of success locally? No, I mean, I was surprised. I mean, yeah, I'd won like,

I'd won like the Burleson Talent Show. Yeah, right. Wow. Like, you know, but like exactly, prestigious. But, you know, when you're, you know, a kid, you do those kind of things. And I'd had like some success in the sense of like, you know, following through on some dreams that I had like locally. But like I, you know, when I was a kid. But no, I mean, I'd never won anything of like...

Real importance or done anything and I I have like a wallflower generally like I don't nobody even knows I'm in the room generally So I did not think I was gonna win that what was the process? So what was from the first audition? So you heard about this audition where they were gonna have you didn't know was a show It was just they were looking for singers is what you heard. Is that right? Yeah, and and so they go so you go into you you audition in Texas Mm-hmm and you go to the first audition and

From the first audition to winning, how long was that process? Oh, like within like a year. Like it was months because it was the first season and they were still putting it all together and it was an English-based company, so people were coming in and out. Are you singing the same song in every stage, every audition? They'd like you to, or they did, they asked us to. I was about to sing, I said yes to singing at someone's wedding and I was singing at last, they wanted me to sing at last, and so I think I sang at last once.

for the first three. And then they showed this on YouTube, I think, or released it sometime. But then they asked me to sing something faster. And I was like, sing anything but the Moulin Rouge song. Because everyone was singing Itchy Gitchy, yeah, yeah. I was like, I literally in that moment was like, anything will do but that song. Because everyone was singing it. So I went into some Madonna song, which was random. Because normally I don't generally sing Madonna. Sure.

So within a year, you go from driving home so you can make more money so you don't have to live in your car to being an international superstar. And that kind of whiplash on your life, forget professionally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The whiplash on you sort of spiritually, emotionally, all that kind of stuff. The weight of it.

The weight of it. And some people might say, oh, poor Kelly Clarkson, you became rich and famous in a year. I'm one of those people too, by the way. Of course. Was that Jane Buffett that you were just quoting? That was Jane Buffett. That was my good friend Jane Buffett. No, she never said that. That's just a great Jane accent. I know, she's the best. Was...

What was that like, Kelly, for you? Like sort of not the day after you win, but in this sort of the time after as your life just has a dramatic shift. What was that like for you as a person, as a human being walking this planet?

You know, really cool moments and then like a lot of not great ones. So I think I'm a very trusting person. Well, I think the scary part comes when it's more the human factor. It's not the working. I've always had like three or four jobs at a time. I've always enjoyed being busy. I like being productive. So, you know, that wasn't a – it wasn't so much the –

the scheduling was intense, but it wasn't too much. It's the human factor. It's the lying and it's the people, you know, just, it's like, what are we doing here? It's the lying. Like literally it, and I, I've been,

That really got me down. The human factor got me down. Yeah, there was an article written in this old paper in LA. I don't even think they print it anymore, called the LA Weekly. This is like, I don't know, 30 years ago. That's like a cover story called The Fine Art of Lying. And talking about the relevance and the necessity of it, specifically in the entertainment industry. I'm sure it's pervasive in other industries as well, but specifically that they cited all these examples. And it's really true. I become sort of immune or sort of numb to it, but...

if, if you really think about it, if you think about your conversations with your team, with the other people that you work with, there is a level of lying that I myself do as well, that you kind of have to do just to protect the people's feelings that you love. It,

in this business because there's so much rejection. There's so much sort of, yeah, it's not a fit, blah, blah, blah, that you have to, if you're empathetic at all, reshape and sort of tell what are, I think, I like to think are white lies. Yeah, but I don't know. I don't know. You do get used to it, but I don't think, I don't think that you are, are,

or numb to it. I mean, I know... But what do you mean? Lies about what? Well, lies about your... Hey, oh, I...

I saw your movie the other day. Oh, yeah, what'd you think? Now, if you didn't like it, but you're friends with that person. Now, obviously, this is not some big thing that I'm revealing, but there is sort of a, I find that there is a lot of it that you need to do in this town if you care about the people that you're talking to because there's so much rejection. Everybody works hard. And difference of opinion, yeah. By the way, I, for what it's worth, I loved Goodnight Oscar. Yeah.

Oh, yes. And me. I just want to say that. I think I liked it more than well. I loved it a lot. Sean, I thought you were so good at it. Oh, Sean, so gifted. I loved it. Good night, Oscar. What a tribute. And we will be right back. All right, back to the show. But Kelly, I was going to say, well, you know, you touched on something which is, and kind of actually going on what Sean said, which is that you belong, there is that feeling of like you belong

I think a lot of Americans identified with you because you were the first person who kind of was plucked out of oblivion and became a superstar. And I guess that's what I'm wondering about is after that, you are, because people felt a certain sense of ownership of you. And a proxy of like the American dream. Yeah. So how hard is that? That's not hard. Like that's not, I mean, I get that. I don't know how, but I still like, I can still like,

be objective and go, man, that's incredible that someone made it in that sense. Like, you know what I'm saying? And it kind of, I think what it did just for speaking to people and meet and greets and whatnot for years and years is it really gave people like a

I don't know, like a... It kind of gave people that thing of like, no, really, you can't accomplish anything. Like your dreams, whatever it is, you could actually make this happen. Like this person was from nowhere, like a cocktail waitress, like, you know, nowhere near making it. And they actually film that stuff, right? They deliver your story to... Much like they do in the Olympics. They deliver your story to... And then, boom, they go live. Here's her singing on stage. Yeah, and I think people relate to that. I think people think...

maybe i can still do that or maybe or that could be me i think that it like has this sense of aspirational yeah yeah vicarious yeah well sean used to do a lot of meet and beats right yeah no no sorry she said meet and greet well okay sorry yeah sorry sorry well yeah well done good for you sean thank you so like listen do you remember do you remember when you first started uh you know

immersing yourself into the world of Hollywood and Los Angeles and all that. Do you remember what was kind of foreign to you that you were like, oh, I didn't know you needed makeup every single time. Oh, I didn't know a camera worked like that. Oh, I got in trouble on American Idol. They were like, so we're about to be on camera. And I was like, I know. And they were like,

But you're going to be on camera. And I was like, I know. And then it was like, okay, well, do you want any like makeup or hair? And I was like, no, I'm in a house right now. You're doing like behind the scenes. Like I was like, I'm not on stage. Like I was like, I mean, I'll do it for stage. I was like, but why are we doing this now? One producer in particular, very high up, was not a fan of me just because I didn't.

play that game. And it wasn't even playing the game. Like, the other four girls that season were very into...

you know, that stuff. They were very into it. The glam of it, yeah. Yeah, I was like the most amazing person to tour with for those girls because I was never in the makeup and hair chair. Like, I was like, they would have to force me to like sit there because I'm highly allergic. Anything that gets near my eyes, vegan, whoever's brand that says whatever, it still sucks for my eyes. And anyway, so I don't like wearing it. I don't enjoy wearing it. And so that was a big thing. You can't pry me out of the chair, you know?

I need it. I do need it. And that's the thing. Like, I adore the people I work with. Even my makeup artist. I love her so much. I was laughing at Jason saying you often, like, stare directly in their eyes to make it. We have so many, like, inside jokes. It's such an intimate setting. Like, we're...

such close friends just because of that. Like, you know, but, so I love, I love, you know, the art of it. I love how creative people can be. It's just not my thing. Right. Right. So then you, so you don't do it or you're sort of resistant to it for all the reasons you just outlined. Yeah.

Then you win American Idol. Now you're a pop star. And now you've got to release record after record, which you do incredibly successfully. So just talk to us a little bit about that. And singing in front of thousands of people. Exactly. I'm fascinated by all of a sudden, now you're a megastar sort of overnight. Not really. Now, of course, people don't realize that you've been working for years trying to do it. Yeah, but it is overnight. I'm okay with that.

Okay. And then, and then, thank you for letting me off the hook. And then you, and, but then you all of a sudden it's like, okay, so you win. That's huge. And now you got to record a record, right? You got to make a, you go right into making a record. Is that how it went?

Yeah, and it was bumpy from the beginning. Yeah, just because nobody knew what to do with me because I liked a lot of different genres of music and everybody kind of had a different plan. And nobody knew that it would be successful in their defense. You know, they didn't, you know, they were like, yeah, this kid from this show, like, I understand that. And understood it then as well, by the way. But it was a little bumpy. And then they, people don't know this, but

It wasn't Clive right off the bat. Like I had another, there was another person running the label. Clive Davis. Yeah. It wasn't him running the label. I didn't make my first record with him. So anyway, it was just kind of rocky from the beginning. There was a changing of hands, like a, you know, baton passing with the label. There's a lot going on. Nobody knew what to do. Like it was, it was a,

crazy, like I think people thought, oh right off the bat she like had all this money to do it. No, everybody was plugging in our own gear at state fairs and cow shit and like doing state fairs. Like we were, like it wasn't right off the bat. - Who was producing the record for you then? At that point, who were you, like what was that process?

I can't remember. I think it was Peterson. I can't remember his name. It was a long time ago. But he was right in the beginning. He was very nice. Like right in the beginning. I had met him once. And really it was just us in the studio and they were kind of setting me up with different producers and different writers and stuff. Yeah. And did you write these songs or were these songs that were written by – because a lot of artists I've learned very late in life, some of them write their own music and they perform their music and then others –

No better, no worse. They take songs that are already written by somebody who doesn't know how to sing and then they sing them. Didn't you sing an Avril Lavigne song? Yeah, I've sang a Katie song, Christina song, Sia, Pink, Avril. I love writing and I've been writing since my first album. I've always written on all my records and I've also always just loved finding songs that I feel like

I was intended to be the vessel for. Like, I love, I mean, I love interpretation. So, I mean, obviously even from the talk show, if we skip ahead, like I, I love taking a song and even flipping it, like the production. I just, I love storytelling. I don't like acting in the way of storytelling. I like watching it, but I like singing and acting in that sense. And, and with storytelling and that, that's always been like a love of mine. So I've, I've done both since the very beginning.

What about that? Sorry, Shani. Did you ever see a movie called Into the Woods? I love that movie. Yeah. With Meryl Streep, Emily Blunt, James Corden. Yeah. Like, would you ever be excited if somebody brought you something like that where there's a little bit of acting but a lot of singing as well, like singing, acting? Also known as a musical movie. Go ahead. Sorry. Also known. You know, there's a whole genre

Based on it. It was a musical. The guy named Stephen Sondheim I hear is really starting to take off. He's going to make it. Jason, do some singing acting for us real quick. Hello, I'm hungry. Nice. Something like that. You can sing, Jason. Well, that's not acting because we know you're hungry. Yeah. I would maybe do something like that. But I think...

I'm like such a fan of what y'all can do. Like, I think it's interesting when actors, especially having this talk show, like I meet actors a lot and I never was around actors, only musicians generally. And, um,

And we're always, like, looking at the other pasture. Like, everybody says it's always greener. You know, everybody's like, oh, my God, I'm such a fan of what you do. So, like, what y'all do is incredible to me. The fact that you can run lines like that, do the same emotion over and over again, whatever, it's serious or funny or whatever, and it doesn't wear you out or get monotonous is beyond me.

- Right, I feel the same way about musicians. I do, I'm in awe of what you do, your ability to-- - No, but I find that that's the case, right? But I have such an appreciation for it, and I've never, like, I did know the winner of American Idol, we found out around the top five, that in that little fine print that we signed for the contract,

the winner would have to do this movie. And I was... I literally have cried, like, so hard to get out of that. Like, because I did not want to do it. I did not think it was good. Neither did anyone else. And I did not want... I did not want to act like that. Like, that was not my... That was not my goal. Did you? Did you have to? Yeah. I bought the first ticket. I was right in the dinner. I had to do it, yeah. And it's not like I was, like, trying to...

you know, poo poo on it or whatever. It just, I was so worried because my goal was to sing and tour and do stuff like that. And so I was so worried that it was going to ruin any chance of me being taken seriously as an artist. So I begged my label to at least let me put my single out. Like, just let me get a single out. Let me have a chance.

like before this comes out and they did. So that, I think that's what saved me was that first single. What, what level of pride do you allow yourself to feel that, that you have taken in what, 20 years, um, a great step through a door that wasn't pride open for you by anybody else. I mean, you, you, you, you did that part too, but once you had that platform and all this capital, um,

that you were able to build on it, diversify it, and parlay it into this massive, legitimate career such that some people would be really interested to hear that you got started on American Idol. It's much the same way, like, you know, there's all these people that started on Star Search. It's like, wait, what?

What? Yeah, there are a lot of kids who bought your records who didn't watch you on Idol, right, Jay? Is that what you're getting at? Like, there are a lot of people who are fans of yours who don't know that. Exactly. And my question is, do you... Have you sort of just out of admirable humility lost... Are you allowed to feel...

Do you allow yourself to feel the pride that I think you deserve, that you've done so much with that moment that frankly some others have not from American Idol or any of the other shows? Yeah, I mean, I think for me, what I'm most proud of is...

even if there's like, I've been told in this business, like, well, you're a sinking ship, you know? And I was like, okay, cool. But as long as I'm at the helm, I'm cool with that. Like as long as somebody else isn't driving it, like that's cool. Like, I think that's what I take pride in is like,

Look, it hasn't been a perfect career. It's obviously been like this. But, like, it's been perfect for me in the sense of, like, every decision I've made and everything I've done, it's because I wanted to do it, regardless of the outcome. And I think I'm proud of the fact that I don't let pride or ego or –

even shame if that comes in, you know, at some point with something, you know, or any of that, I don't let that get in the way of it. So how did you, how did you learn that? Because you were, like you said, 19 and now you're 40, whatever. How did you learn how to weed out the good from the bad as you entered the business?

Childhood trauma. I think, no, I honestly, that's why people always ask me about my kids and being in the business. I'm like, I mean, good for them if they want to do it. I just think because of how I was set up from a very young age,

and hearing the things that happened or whatever my life happened and having to navigate that, I think definitely prepared me for the industry and prepared me for a spotlight to be okay to be me, regardless if you're into it or not. Everybody likes something different. Art is subjective. But I think that is...

fucked up as that sounds. I think a lot of like the traumatic things that happened to me when I was younger really not only built a thicker skin, but I think it also, when you, you know, let's say you hear from like someone that's supposed to love you the most, you know what I'm saying? In life and you're, and you're like,

You didn't quite – that you weren't good enough. I think that when that happens, you're like, well, I'm never going to please anyone. So like why even aim for it? I'm just going to have a good time. Like fuck it. I'm just going to like do what I love to do. It's interesting. And because when that person or people that are supposed to be there for you the most, like when you get let down – and I know that sounds dark. But when that happens, I think in your head, you're like –

okay, well then maybe life isn't so about just aiming to please everyone or aiming to receive something. Maybe you just do it because you want to do it and you never know how many trips around the sun you get. You might as well try whatever you want. Yeah, I think the same way. I mean, or maybe even said differently if you agree that it's,

sets you up the necessity becomes being self-sufficient if you can't rely on those closest to you at certain times um then you learn well then i just have to make myself happy i've got that survival yeah and it's because i i was gonna say and sean beat me to the question like you are so clearly comfortable in your skin and and and

you know, shitty word. I don't have a better one, but you're just lovely. Oh, God. No, I'm kidding. I love that word. But like who, I was going to ask you, who can you...

attribute that to? I mean, do you have... Yeah, like, because he didn't become a drug addict. He didn't become this or that. Yeah, did you have great parents or parent or uncle or something that really showed you kind of this North Star of like, well, wow, look at the adversity they've gone through and they're still able to be

you know, loving and giving and warm and open to the people they care about. And they're not walking around and bittered and aggrieved. And like, it's just, you seem to really have taken whatever negatives you went through. And I'm not prying for those, but you seem to have turned them into a positive. And, and they just taught you coping mechanisms that have yielded this nice balanced personality and vibe. It seems like, yeah. Yeah. I think for me, that's our time. Thank you so much. That,

I think for me it wasn't one person. I think –

it's a village, right? That raises any kid. Like, I don't think it's, you know, people are just like, Oh, it's my mom or it's my dad or it's, you know, whatever. I think obviously that probably is true, but I also think we are raised by our surroundings, regardless of your teachers, your, you know, coaches and sports, like your, like all your other friends, parents, like there's, and I think I, for some reason, I don't know why or how, but I,

I don't know. I kind of navigated people in a sense of like, I'm going to take the, I love that part of you. Like, that's a really cool thing. Like I, you know, I don't have a lot of positive experiences with this one person in my life that I won't mention. But the one thing I will say for them is they were always highly complimentary of people, even if it was fake or whatever for them. But like growing up, I saw how it made people feel. And I was like, oh, that

for lack of a better word, that's like to make someone feel... And I stole that, like, for my person. And I was like, I like that. I like to make people feel like that. I like to compliment people. But you know what, Kelly? There's a real wisdom to that, which is... And Sean, you always say it takes a village of people. But, you know, we... You...

There's a wisdom to this idea that you... Whatever you put out in life is what you're going to get back, right? And so... I believe that, yeah. I have no idea who you're talking about or what they're like as a person. They might be a terrible person. But at least in that aspect... They work great. And if you... Yeah, so if you...

You know, sometimes that feeling of loving somebody, no matter what, will increase the chances of you getting love back. And that feeling of hurt or whatever comes from a lack of actually putting love out. And I think that there's a balance there. There's like a...

And when it comes to people too, you sort of start to identify. I know that as I get older, I identify the people in my life where I go, I make a conscious effort to surround myself and to spend time with people that I love and I know love me. And then my experience is better. These guys on this, you know, here with us today are two great examples. I probably don't spend more time with anybody than these two guys, you know, in my sort of

And because I love them and they love me. And so that's a positive experience. Yeah. We'll be right back. And now back to the show. All right. Let's get to the show. Yeah. I would imagine. Yeah. Do you love it as much as you seem? I mean, it's like, it seems like it's just a fantastic fit for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can we go back to like, how did that happen? You're Kelly Clarkson-

you have so many different phases to your life. You're Kelly Clarkson, aspiring singer. You're Kelly Clarkson, rock star. Yeah, not since Arnold Schwarzenegger. Millions of albums. And then all of a sudden, you're like, what? One day you wake up and you're like, man, you're looking out the window and you're like, I'm going to have a talk show.

No, no, that, yeah, I, I said no the first two times. Like, so they, I was on The Voice and I love NBC. I have a really healthy relationship with them. Well, they don't lie. So I like that. I'm trying to surround myself with people that are just, just feed it to me. Um, but I, I had a really good experience on that show with that crew, with those executives, like, and, um,

They came to the studio. I was doing something at the recording studio. They came and they were like, we really feel like you would be really good at this. I was like, I really am not a journalist or a comedian. There's no reason for me to be doing that. I just don't think that's a good plan if I'm being frank. Then I said no. Then I said no again. All of a sudden it was just... It was actually my ex. We were just laying in bed and he was like,

I really feel like you should just, you'd be really good at it because you're really good with people. Like you're, like, you're really good at talking. I don't think it's going to be like a job for you. It's like, I think you just are really, you know, good at that. And, um, and I, you know, why not just try it? And I was like, whatever. So I was like, okay, cool. I'll, I'll try it. And I will say even from the, and I say this with all, uh,

without trying to sound any other kind of way, but like a lot of people will be like, oh, it's really hard. It's really not. It's like the easiest job I've ever had. Like I know that sounds like nobody wants to hear that. Well, it's because you're naturally charismatic and friendly and interested and curious. And it's like you just, you've got people skills because you're not a dick.

you know, I mean, like, well, thank you. But I, but I, I don't know. I just, it just is not like the hardest part of my talk show is just that I was like, Hey, I have this idea. We can open with a song before and I could elevate, you know, other artists that I love or whatever and do covers and whatever. And that's the hardest thing. It's like 180. And it's always like trying to figure out, you know, clearing songs. Like that's the hardest part of the show is just getting that. Cause there's no rehearsal time. It is literally like,

like, you know, when you're a kid and they're like, get on stage, improv it. Like, you know what I'm saying? It's like, it's like, it's, we literally don't rehearse it. We just do it. You know, it's the craziest thing ever. So that part is like the hardest part. The talking part is so easy. Well, except I know you've probably, well, maybe not because you're like super successful. So, but like, you know, like have you ever interviewed someone and you're just like,

Okay. So that's, that's. Yeah. Like, buddy, you gotta talk, you know, it's not yes or no time. You sell your shit. Right. You're not doing me a favor by sitting on the couch. That can be hard sometimes. I'm like, wow, do say more. But that can be tough.

But for the most part, I'm pretty good with people. So it's really like the easiest... Like I can't even believe we're in season five right now. It feels like not that long. That's so amazing. Yeah. It's just a fun job. And honestly, the support of... Because I literally told NBC, I was like, I don't... I'm not trying to slap a gift horse in the face, mouth, whatever you say, whatever the saying is. I was like, I'm just...

I'm not happy here. I can't continue doing this. And I don't want to like, I know everybody's put a lot of money and time and we're winning and we're doing well. I was like, but I can't continue this. I got to get out of here. And so they were really cool about moving the show for me. That's really great. Which is huge. To 30 Rock. Yeah. That's insane. Look a gift horse in the mouth. Do you know what that expression is? Do you know what it comes from? I do. Do you?

Yeah, if somebody, yeah, it goes back to somebody, you give somebody a horse and you look in the teeth and if the teeth are bad, then you say, no, thank you. You can see how old the horse is and the overall health of a horse. And so if somebody gives you one and you go, yeah, I'll take the gift, but hang on, let me look inside. Ah. Yeah, so you're looking at the, it's rude. Look at that, the more you...

No, look at that. I didn't know that Jason would know that. I love you, Jason. I'm sneaky smart. I know, you are sneaky smart. You're not sneaky smart. You're plain smart. Hey, so you, Kelly, you're now at 30 Rock, which is, must feel like...

I mean, has it set in? Well, you know what's so funny is I've been going there so much for over 20 years that like for promotion stuff and just in and out of the building that it oddly felt very normal right off the bat. Like, yeah. I mean, you walk around like for some reason my key like never works. They just don't want to let me in the building. And I always have to go to this one area and get another one. And when you go there, there's...

There's all these images that kind of change of all the things that have happened historically in that building. And it's so cool. I mean, I get the gift of it and I'm very grateful for it. But it feels really normal. Like we've been there the whole time. What floor are you on? Are you on six? I'm right across from, yeah, right across from Jimmy. You are? Okay. Jimmy Fallon. Yeah. From the movie?

From Jimmy. Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Sean. For Tracy, Jimmy Fallon. Jimmy Fallon. I'm so jealous. It's such a dream of mine to live in New York, work at 30 Rock on something that is every day. Like, I swear to God, I've been, I've wanted that since I was, you know, a young kid. Like, going to New York for work and going to 30 Rock, I just think that building is incredible. Um,

The whole area around it, even like the ice, all the closed off streets. The basement level of all the things happening that I never knew the city underneath. I was like, what? Jason, are you crying right now? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. By the way, I'm going to help you out. Sorry, go ahead, Kelly. Oh, no, I was going to say, I will say it's how you're describing it. It is movie-like. Like I walk home every day from work and it's the coolest thing ever. You put your headphones in. I'm usually learning the...

listening to what I'm supposed to be seeing the next day. But like, you know, you, you walk home, you go out of the building, this historical cool building, the city, everybody's got their own vibe going on. Everybody's got their own lives. You put different industries, not just the one like in LA and, and then, and you, you put your heavens in and you walk home and it's like a, you know, 35 minute walk home. And so it's nice. It's lovely. And you're walking through a park and you're, it's,

It's really, it's like, I don't know, the older we get, I sound like an old person, but the older you get, those moments really matter. Like those moments. Of course, it's experiential. Jay, we were talking on the phone this morning about it. It's like, how do you want your experience to be? Like you can have X, Y, and Z, but you have to go through the process of doing it and you have to do it on a day-to-day basis. So what do you want that to be? What do you want your life experience to be?

And I know what you mean. I mean, I, you know, lived in New York for over 20 years and I keep threatening that once my older kids graduate high school, I'm going to move back. And I think that's what I will do because of that very thing you talked about, whether it's walking to the park, walking to think whatever. I mean, that kind of stuff. It's very inspirational. Yeah. It fills you up, right? Like it fills your soul, if you will. And it sounds like cheesy, but like,

Or very celebrity. But like I, at the risk of this, I have to be, I think because I'm from the countryside, I have to be like, like that park saves me. It's right there. It saves me every day. Like I, I don't think I could live in the concrete jungle without that park. Like I literally read a whole book on Frederick Law, I'm sorry, who created it. Like I'm, I'm very into like

landscaping and very into like just making sure we have, we don't forget like what that feels like to go outside and see trees and flowers and. I did, when I was doing the play last summer, I would walk, sometimes I'd walk four hours. From your front door to the escalade. Yeah. I was exhausted. I was exhausted. Jason, can we just, can we just

Can we make an announcement right now, Jay? Will and I are pregnant. Oh, wow. Congratulations. Thanks, guys. The NBC, Jason Bateman is open to your offer of working for you at 30 Rock on a daily basis. So come to him. Call Alina Kashishian. Would y'all ever, would you, this is a real question.

Would you, cause I'm not bullshitting you. I really do listen. I was even with my sister and I were listening to like two in the morning last night. I think the Kevin Hart one and Emma Stone. We were listening to a bunch of them. Anyway. And would you ever, cause I noticed with the Kevin Hart one, you're in front of an audience and then y'all toured it as well. So would you ever do it as like a, like a, like a TV show, like a TV show?

I've thought about it, but I think it would be more full-time than I think the three of us... Are willing to... Yeah, like right now, it's just, you know, it's an hour a week. And we're flexible with it. We're mobile with it. But yeah, if it was a structured studio and stuff, it would mean stopping some of the other things we're...

enjoying doing in addition to this right now. Yeah, perfectly. And anybody who would want to have us on their platform to do that would have to make an offer to Aline Kishishian. Will has a number. And let's hear what it is. But I do think that you can make that whatever you want because I...

Because I didn't know what a talk show was. Like, I didn't really know, like, I didn't know this world. I'm an artist. I'm never even awake for daytime television. Like, I'm like, so, like, I'm, this is not really generally my world. So, you know,

I think you've had so much success with it and obviously just in your careers separately. But I think that's the cool thing about it is that you wouldn't have to commit to more than what you wanted to commit to. You're at that level to where maybe you do it in a different way. Like, you know, I don't know. I just think I think what you're doing, this is incredible. I just it's just I also understand like that is pretty cool, too, because you do give up.

something has to give like even with my music career i'm not able to do everything because i'm doing the talk show but there's also a plus in that for for me that's why it's so tempting like i love routine i would love to have you know me too that stage across from jimmy's and you and you have the pattern that you walk home every day from through the park like i love i love a routine i've

flourish in a routine. But also having that, as you know, because of what we do, sometimes you have like a million things happening at once. And again, not a complaint. Like, you know, you have the, you know, privilege of having a million things. But when you get to work on one thing all the time, and it's

You can't, you're like, sorry, I can't. I'm just doing this thing. And there's something really satisfying about that. Having those moments. Sean, you did it for years on Will and Grace. Yeah, it was nice. You know, where you're like, I'm just doing this right now. And I don't have the time to be spread thin. For sure. Because I'm just doing this. I know that you've answered this question probably a billion times. I've never heard the answer. That's why I'm going to be the tool. I am a tourist as well. But no, why? Because you are, you all have,

such amazing careers separate from one another, such different careers as well, obviously actors, but just different. And what made you all three do this? Like what, whose idea was this?

Will's originally, and then Sean and I kind of snored in on it and changed what Will's concept and premise was going to be. And then it just became, well, let's just kind of hang out and chit-chat during COVID because we can't see each other. We had no idea. I didn't know the answer to that. Sorry, you've probably answered it a billion times. No, it's not that. It's not particularly. We literally were like, oh, let's just do it. And then the week after,

The world shut down on the Friday of March 13th of 2020, and we had a meeting on the Tuesday before, like four days before. Yeah, Sean's real smart dude, Michael Granteri, put some form to it and presented to us, well, guys, just so you know, this is what it could be, and this is what it's not. So don't think it's...

you know, going to be a big, huge time suck and there's some work here, but he just basically put it in adult terms for us. And we paid for it. Like, we put it up on its feet on our own. I mean, it wasn't a lot, but we did that and that's how it went. I think that's why, though, because it was so organic. I think...

You know, a lot of horrible things happened because of COVID, but a lot of really incredible things happened out of COVID. -And it was just an excuse to see each other. -Yeah. Well, it became like this really great-- You know, a lot of feedback we got, especially at that time from people, was like, "Hey, it was great to be able to listen during COVID."

And truthfully, it was selfishly, it was great for us to be able to do it directly. Oh, it was selfishly, it was good for me to work through that as well. I worked my whole TV show the whole time. Right, and being able to like... In the mountains in like snow. And being able to call people in that you're really interested to talk to kind of unapologetically. You're not like tapping them on the shoulder like...

excuse me, Mrs. Such and Such, I'd love to ask you a question. Well, no, we have a format for that with this. And it's such a luxury to be able to talk to these heroes that we have. I'm sure you feel the same way on your show. Yeah, I do. You just say to your gang, your producers, hey, would you reach out to such and such, see if they'd be interested in coming on the show? She's in a gang? Yeah. No, that just happened to me with Cher. I was like, and Alanis was on this season. Like a lot of people that I've,

adore um they're always going to be probably more the musical ones that come on just because i and i have a little bit more um depth with them as far as their career and catalog and stuff but um but yeah i i feel the same way it's the coolest thing to like be able to just sit and chat like with your people that you look up to well you're you're killing it you really are you killed it and everything you've done you're you're you're such a uh um

Such a sort of real... Say lovely. Yeah, lovely. Lovely person. I could hear you talk all day long. I could hear you sing all day long. I agree. I love it. Yeah. You're nice. I don't leave voicemails because of my talking voice. I just want to belt out all your songs to you because I just love... I love belting out your songs. It's just so good. We have...

taken up way too much of your time. God, you're busy. Get back to your incredibly successful talk show. We wish you nothing but the best. Thank you for

being here and blessing us with you and thank you for your talent and everything you've done and all your lovely yeah yeah you're awesome no thank you guys for having me i know i've listened to the the show so i'm like to be in a the same category as a lot of the people that you you interview is very cool so thank you very much for having me you're just like honestly just like cutting through the bullshit and just being through yourself it's so refreshing to listen to and it's fun and it's

you know how y'all were saying people look at me I look at y'all the same way so I think it's very refreshing for people. It's nice for people to see this version of Sean for sure. I love Sean. I love Kelly. You made this real easy. Thank you Kelly. Yeah Kelly thank you so much success. Congratulations and wish you nothing but the best. Now y'all have a good 2024 y'all. You too. Bye. Bye Kelly.

What a terrible guest, Will. You know, somebody that just doesn't know how to, you know, be friendly or respond to questions. I know. She's so... I love this, Sean. You started in the right way, which is... You put it in such a great way, which is like, yeah, she feels very much like...

Like ours. Like ours. Yeah. And she is the American idol. Yeah, she's America. She represents all sides of America, I think. I honestly felt like I could fire up a friendship with her tomorrow that would last 40 years. Well, when you're doing your talk show across the hall from her, Jason. Yeah, let's do that. Or maybe combined with her.

What? Kelly and Jason. From Jason to Kelly. That was the name of her movie. That's right, from Justin to Kelly. People call me Justin all the time. Oh my God, we can do it. The posters already exist. We already have all the outdoor ads. But isn't it amazing we know all of her songs? It's so rare. Everybody knows all her songs. I know. What's that song that goes, Bye, bye.

Black sheep? Black bird? Yeah. Fuck, man. Jason, why don't you get out of here? Fuck, that was so fucking sweaty. Fucking lather up. You're thinking about that NSYNC song. Yeah, how's it go? Bye, bye, bye. Bye, bye, bye, bye, bye. Smart. Loss. Smart. Loss.

SmartList is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Rob Armjarv, Bennett Barbico, and Michael Granteri. SmartList. If you like SmartList, you can listen early and add free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.