"Jen Psaki"
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Hey, everybody. Welcome to our talk show. What is it? It's a podcast, not a talk show. Isn't it kind of a talk show, though? We do talk. It's a bit of a show. We talk and people listen. We got celebs on it and stuff. Okay. We don't have a band or television. Right now on the show, I hope that you would just not talk and just say, hey, welcome to Smart List. So a talk show for you guys, a listen show for me? Yep. Gotcha.

Got it. Welcome to Smartland.

How's everybody doing today? I had a great day. I had a great morning. Yeah, but Sean, you've got a towel around your neck? Why is that? No, it's a blanket, Jay. Oh, are you in an overly air-conditioned apartment? I certainly am. Oh, that's high-class problems. What's the temperature in New York City today?

It's hot. Is it? It's like 80, 90, I don't know. No kidding. And so you're in a place that's so hot, but you're wearing a blanket. Well, because Scotty's at the gym, and when he gets home from the gym, it's too hot. Did you know that seven of the hottest days on record on this planet have been in the last week? Yes, yes, I know. It's crazy. And it's because of people like you? Yeah.

Because Scotty likes you to have all your... Because Scotty doesn't want to be hot when he comes home from the gym. No, no. That's not true. Take that polar ice cap. But wait, you'll love this. I think I told you this, Jason, before, but I don't know if I told you, Will. You know, when Scotty and I were at a restaurant the other night and we got in a fight about, not a fight, just a discussion about weather, like the weather app versus the internet, I always look at the internet for the correct response.

right thing and he's like no just use your iphone app the weather app on your iphone i'm like it's never right it always says 70 or 80 and it's gonna rain and it doesn't i go i'll go to the internet go to the internet and then just to diffuse the tension when it gets real hot like that between us like in a public place i always look to his left to an imaginary person and i go try living with it

God. Wait, so when you go to the internet, what do you... I go to AccuWeather. I go to AccuWeather. That's better than the Apple app. Where do you go on the internet, Sean? I go to Weather Channel. Oh, well, there's an app for that. Yeah, but it's just like I just go to the... I just look it up.

By the way, I can't imagine you ever fighting with anyone. I was talking about you the other day with somebody, and I said, with all seriousness, I've never seen you in a bad mood. I've never seen you angry. I've never seen you fight, obviously, with anybody. You saw me. I got angry with you three years ago. What did I do? What did you do? Nothing. We were just arguing about something on the phone, and then we called each other after, and you said...

I think that was our first ever fight. And I said, yeah. And you smiled and you laughed and you said, how does it feel? God, I don't remember. You guys got a little scrappy. I remember you guys got a little scrappy. You know, we got in a discussion. But I have been angry like twice. There's only like one or two people in my whole life that can actually push me in a corner so bad that when I come out, I sound like the most brilliant person

like speaker in the world like when my buttons are pushed so much laser focus i am so i sound so smart otherwise yeah i mean like watching you in the play you know your character uh is gets pretty uh he's he's he's not a happy guy yeah i think i get it out in that way that was really interesting to see so you know how to how to be grumpy yeah you just never are why are you so fucking

and happy. You know what, though? And then that's why you guys are such a great... Yeah, because I'm grumpy all the time, but I'm not upset about anything. I just think my rest is just...

like yeah amanda's always asking me well are you okay you're in a good mood or you're yeah yeah i'm just just i just chill all the time yeah you're always you're always super chill yeah would you so you're in a constant state of chillax would you say i'm always chillaxing and then you know what but you but sean you're always you're always obviously happy i'm never obviously well not never obvious but i'm when i'm i'm

I'm just sort of normal. You're never normal. You're always happy. What's going on? I honestly think it's the dumbest cliche answer, but it's the truth. I think the way I grew up, I grew up so shit, shit poor. We all did in my family. That it sounds so dumb, but I walked down the street every day going, oh my God, I don't have to go through a winter in Chicago without any heat.

I don't have to go without food. I don't have to go without all these things that we didn't have as kids. That's still tangible to you. Yeah, I'm just like, it's why I work hard and it's why I'm grateful every day. That's pretty good. And that's the end of the show. Will, you're always kind of just normal. Like when you're happy about something, you can tell. When you're upset about something, you can tell. But you're usually right in the middle, like me. You're not on some... I've never... I feel like Sean might be taking something.

I wish. Well, you know, I think of Valium every once in a while. But, Will, I've never seen you really... I see you hot when you get opinionated about something, but I've never seen you angry at a person. Well, this is the other thing that I have, too, and I've been warned by Alessandra and even by my ex, by Amy, which is just... Stop hitting people? No, Amy used to turn to me, I'd get heat about it, and she'd just look at me and she'd go, Tone...

And I go, sorry. And so I get real. Nothing will get me hotter than that. That's why I tell him to relax. But I don't get. If somebody just said tone. Yeah. I'd be like, oh, really? What kind of tone? But you see, I don't take it that way. I don't take it personally that way. Because in that moment I go like, oh, the other person's going through, is being subjected to my shit. And so like I got to. Because that's a blind spot, you know. It's like I get in this thing where I go, oh.

I'll hear somebody in a relationship or whatever or somebody in my life and they'll say, hey, you said that and blah, blah, blah. And I go, boy, I really didn't see it that way. I'm really sorry. Yeah, I appreciate getting heads up like that too. And I also don't want people walking on eggshells around me. I just assume that no one's paying any attention to me. So I can just be –

Just level and normal. But I realize that, oh, well, if I'm not sending signals that I'm in a good mood, people might be uneasy around me or anyone else that might, you know. I heard that the people over at Aggregate, all the staff got together. You know what they're going to call the company now? Here it comes. Eggshell Productions. I thought you were going to say aggravated. Oh.

Oh, Agravone, that would have been better. All right, let's get to our guest. I love this person. I'm so excited for you guys to meet this person. We're all fans of this person. Okay. And Jason, just a little heads up, she was on your list too, I found out. Really? Yeah. You stole her? I did, I stole her. She's going to fit right in here since she isn't a stranger to dealing with idiots. In fact, some could agree, some could argue, sorry, she's made a career of it. Oh, he's written this? I totally read it. Chat GPT. Chat GPT.

Right, me? Oh my God, that's so funny. In college, she had a competitive backstroke with the William & Mary Athletic Tribe before eventually deciding to dive into the mean waters of political campaigning. And though it would be difficult to be the most memed employee at the White House, she's got to be in the top five. I'm a big fan of this super smart, super cute ginger. Jen. Jen Psaki. Jen Psaki. Get it out here. Oh.

I love the transition from backstroke. I was a mediocre college swimmer. I'm just going to acknowledge at the start here to politics. So thank you for that. And I also love this conversation about happiness. I thought you were like a superstar backstroker. No.

- I was mediocre. - You think you're in shape until you try to swim. I mean, any kind of swimming is really impressive because boy, you try two laps and you're down. - I'm with you. - It's the hardest thing to do. That and full core basketball. - Jen Psaki, nice to meet you. I'm so glad you're here. - Nice to meet you. - What are your thoughts on treading water as a form of exercise? Because I've heard that that's like, it involves all your muscles. - Water polo. - It is hard. Now when you, I was a lifeguard.

growing up and you have to be able to tread water for a certain amount of time. I don't know if any of you are aspiring lifeguards, but you might have to practice. It's part of the journey to save people. Let me tell you, I went with my friend once a long time when I went as a kid to this lake and in the middle of the lake there was this lake

you could lay out this, hang on, hang on, stay with me. Sorry. This little platform that you could swim to. And we got out there and I couldn't swim back. I panicked. I had to grab on his back and he had to swim. Well, this is the plot of Stand By Me. What are you talking about? Yeah.

You just made that up? And then we found a dead body. Jen Psaki, I'm so excited that you're here. I know, me too. I'm excited to be here. I'm a huge fan. Can I just say, and happy third birthday. No way. Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you. You're welcome. It's bananas that you even know that we're on the planet. I know. Because I watch you every single day. I'm totally starstruck. Your world is far more exciting and interesting and respectful than ours. Respectable than ours. Yeah. Well. Yeah. Well. I mean, look.

Her side, shall we say. Her side, her side. Yeah. No, I want to, first of all, I just want to get this out of the way, the dumb stuff at the beginning. How many people pronounce your last name wrong? Oh, God.

I mean, 80%. What do they say? Pusui, Pasali, Pisaki. They add letters in between. But then I'm sympathetic to hard names, and I really try hard to pronounce them. But I over-ask sometimes how to pronounce names as a result. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure. How are you liking doing a show? Are you...

What's the schedule like is it nuts or easy? Oh, yeah, it's great. I love it I mean I it's a it's different because my shows on Sundays I have another show on Thursday as a peacock show and I have a newsletter and a couple different things But yes on peacock you can stream it But on sense that there's a lot of build-up to the Sunday show So I wouldn't say the schedule is and I appear in other people's shows too. So it depends on the week and

But it's just, it's different from the White House where I was just in my last job because then it was all about the briefing every day and you work 24-7. It's not like that anymore. But I do spend a lot of time with this amazing team trying to figure out what unique we're going to say, what guests we're going to have on, spend a lot of time reading. So it's just a different schedule. But it's not as insane as it used to be. Well, so speaking of the insane times, you were at the White House. Yes, yes.

What was that? What was that like? Where were you when you got the call? Well, yeah, where were you when you first of all when you got the call? What was it like? Where were you when you got the call? I was just going to say, is the answer Peter Doocy? I don't know. People always ask me that. I love that. I love that. Go ahead. That was not your question. Well, we can do that.

So where were you when you got the call that they were offering you that job? Do you remember how that went down? Yeah. So I was a bridesmaid twice before I was a bride, as they like to say. I was the runner for this job twice, which is relevant mainly because a lot of times people don't get jobs and then sometimes it works out, right? And that was a big lesson to me. But I was working on the transition. There's a presidential transition, right, between every president.

And I just felt like I was working in the private sector. I was working for CNN. But I felt like I wanted to do something for government in that period of time post-Trump. I didn't know what it was. So I was working on that.

And Anita Dunn, who is still one of President Biden's closest advisors, called me. I need it done right now. Right? She's got a fabulous – isn't it a great name? I love that name. She called me and she said, would you consider – would you be interested in being considered for this job? And I said –

I'd be honored, but I really have to talk to my family about it, which sounds a little 1950s, but the truth is, I mean, some people, some people think just, you know, you're a woman, just do it. And I believe that, but I too, I have two little kids. I still do. I had them then as well. Uh, and I wanted to factor that in and see how that would be. Um,

but then fast forward, she called me and said, can you go see the president, president elect tomorrow or the next day or something? And so that, that was all, it was kind of a little bit of a short journey. Can I ask you, it was one of the considerations when you said, I have to talk to my family. Obviously you have to talk to your family. No,

No matter who you are when you take a job like that because it's so all-encompassing and it threatens to take a lot of your time and a lot of your energy and a lot of your focus. And so you've got to say to your partner and your kids and whatever. And all of a sudden, it's a public choice. Well, I was going to get to that. So what I was saying was two part, which is the first part is it's a big job, blah, blah, blah. We know that. But also, did you sort of,

give you some pause knowing that the environment had changed dramatically on in November, 2016, everything changed the way that we approach and where all the norms were thrown out the window. And all of a sudden everything is on the table or off the table, depending on how you look at it. And, and now we live in a different world. That's very changed. That's without grace. That's without norms. That's without respect for it. All that kind of stuff is thrown out. Was that a major con, uh,

Sorry for the long question. Oh, no. I know this is going to sound crazy, but no, I didn't think that that... I was living that in the sense that I was consuming all of this vitriol just like everybody was, but I didn't apply it to myself.

And actually, even when I started the job working as the press secretary, because it was the height of COVID and I didn't go out anywhere. I didn't do anything social. I just basically went to work just like everybody. I went to work. Everybody was tested every day. I went home. And it wasn't until maybe three or four months in, I threw out the first pitch at a Nats game, which was amazing. But also, I'd never thrown a baseball before. No, I didn't. You didn't bounce it, did you? No, I didn't.

I didn't. I would totally. I was really in the leading up to it. I thought to myself, OK, and.

Anthony Fauci and other people really did not do a good job. And if that happened, I was already like playing forward in my head what I would say about my failed pitch. But when I was there, which was kind of the first random social thing I did, my husband was with me. And this older man, I mean, it doesn't matter, but just a description of him, was following me around going, shame, shame, shame. And it was like, what?

What? So I know he because he didn't like Joe Biden. Maybe he didn't like the policies of the world I stood for. Who knows? But to answer your question, I'm giving you a long answer. I like it. I didn't digest it in that way. And it really but experiencing it and living it. And this happens to certainly people of both parties. So but what I think has happened in

in more recent years is anyone who and i don't know how it how it is for all of you do people hate you in a different way or do they just all love you how does it work there's there's three categories i just heard this yeah it's mostly to sean go ahead yeah he gets three categories i mean sean's answer on happiness i feel like how could you not love him i'd feel outraged about those people okay continue there's three there's three groups of people for you for us for anybody that's in the public eye the people who who hate you will always hate you the

The people who love you will always-- No, no, no. It's no matter what you do, the people who hate you will always hate you. No matter what you do, the people who love you will always love you. And no matter what you do, the people who don't care about you don't care about you, are indifferent. Those are the three groups, right? Yeah, you're not turning anybody. There's not gonna be anybody-- You didn't get a lot of letters going, "Hey, you know, I really hated you a lot for the first three years." -And you know what? -You said, yeah. I think I was wrong about it. Like, it just doesn't exist in that way, which is absurd. Right, yeah. And we will be right back.

And now back to the show. One of the things that I think, Will, you make fun of me for when I talk about getting news when you're in the White House versus getting like, I like- Jason thinks that there's a secret news. I've heard you talk about this.

Wait, what is it? Well, you think there's a secret source of information, right? No, there's no secret, but I think you guys get... There's a news source for the news people. But I think you get information inside the White House earlier than, say, the press gets it. And not by a lot, but maybe like by a few minutes, maybe an hour at times. Well, not exactly.

Exactly. Although, like, I do think you're onto a little bit of something, is that you are making a bunch of the news in the White House, right? So in that sense, yes. I mean, if you're sitting, which I did and many others did many times, in the Situation Room and you know that something is going to happen, you're going to reopen relations with Cuba, whatever you're going to do. You're going to go after the bad guys. Or you'll get an incoming from the Defense Department saying, we have just—we've just—

gotten rid of one of the ISIS leaders or whatever. Yeah, exactly. So you guys get that information before the, so. Then you know it's coming. Yes. Right. But now that you're in the media, are, do you wish that you still had some of those same sources or avenues? Yeah. Yes. I mean, it's,

You know, what do I miss? I love my job. I love doing a TV show. I get to talk about all sorts of different things and talk to all sorts of smart people here. But I do miss being able to just walk into Jake Sullivan's office or even the Oval Office and just say, what's the deal with this? And there's certainly been news that's happened that you think, what is the deal with this? I want to know what the deal is. It doesn't make sense. Like with airline food, right? Like what's the deal with airline food?

As a journalist, I'll bet your sources as a journalist are incredible, right? Because you've got many, many high, high level friends in the government still. Yeah, look, I mean, I think part of- Jen, Jen, Jen, sorry, I hate to interrupt you. I just want to make sure, is Scotty okay? Because I know he just got back from the gym and I can see him in the background. Is he too hot? Yeah, is it cool enough there for him? Do you need to- Scotty, you okay from the gym? I said you like the air conditioning on when you come back.

Are you? Yeah. He's okay. He's okay. Because you got the blankets off your shoulders. I'm so sorry. It's all good. It's all good. I can hear Joy Reid, who I know has been on before. I can hear her in the hallway. She's three doors down. No, she's literally walking by my office. Oh, you're at work right now. Tell her hello. Oh, yeah. It's my office. That's so rad. She's on the phone. Yeah.

Yeah. So where is that? Washington or New York? Yeah. Washington. Oh, God. I would dork out so much in those offices. Just come on down. Joy and I will take you around. We can take you on the Meet the Press site. It can be so nerdy and amazing. We're ready. So now, Jen, I have something to say before I want to get into how you started. Because now, since we're talking about the White House press room and everything like that, now watching from home, first of all, you're on because...

you were also on Jason's list, I think, because we love you, we admire you, I love you and your brain. Thank you. Mutual. Yes, and whenever you would come up... You were on my list too. It's cool. It's cool. It's fine. Now we know, but it's okay. I know the two who wanted to have a chat. Not only that, you were on three of my lists. And that's much more of a tapper.

He loves the old tap scene. I like Jake Tapper. He writes some good fiction books. It's all good. We love Jake. You were on three of my lists. You were on three of my lists. Three of my lists. So two things. One, at the end of the question, I want to know what the hell's in the binder. I think everyone wants to know what's in that binder because it's so thick and you flip through it and I want to know. A lot. What if it was just menus or something? I just did it to scare people. It looks like...

I'll have the fried rice. Whenever you would come out to speak at a press conference and I'd be watching on TV, I'd be like, I'd point to the TV. I'm like, yeah, what Jen said. Like, I don't have the gift like you do of just generally articulation and speaking in a succinct manner. And you always made the best points and gave the most clarity when explaining

a position on a certain topic or issue and you have the gift of communicating in a way that makes it digestible to us, right? Thank you. And always, at least to me, there was always such common sense to everything you said. Sounds like there's a but coming. Here comes a but. What's that? It's okay if there's a but. I'm ready for it. There's a but coming or something. Well, I'm asking because, like you said, for debate because...

Now, it seems the whole thing, it's an interesting job as press secretary, whether it's Democratic president or Republican president or whatever. And there's never going to be a situation where the press secretary goes, you know what? Great question. You got me. There's always going to be this thing where you know what they're going to ask and they know you prepared the questions. So what's going on here? Well, that's true. I mean, look, the truth is, I think so. I mean, Fox News, I called on them every day. They didn't exactly like the Biden administration as a network.

They were really predictable because if you watch Fox News every day, they kind of had a rotation of at the time when I was there, the

The border is burning and hundreds of thousands of people are coming across the border. You know, COVID is a disaster. And, you know, there's a rotation of things. So it's somewhat predictable. It's going to be one of those questions. Sorry, did we get an update on the caravan? Did it ever make it? Because, man, there were a lot of... It's really hard to make it if something is a fabrication.

that is true yeah i i had a friend i had a friend who's like these guys who was in the caravan yeah well he would know is he a good friend he's staying with you he's a friend who again i'm not going to name him comedian sort of older guy a little bit like a little bit older than we are and he got he's one of those people who made that turned into fox news when he got to be about 60 and it's a real bummer and i see him and blah blah and he's like and his whole thing was the caravan i'm like

I'm like, man, it's not real. I mean, go ahead. Anyway, sorry. Yeah, well, because you're often in a situation where you're up there presenting facts, right? You're sitting there in the hub of information, what is real, what is not, from an international level to a domestic level. Right. And yet they're sitting there hearing you

relay that generously and then they say, "Yeah, no, I don't believe it." -Right. -Or that-- Like, I don't know where you go from there. Well, I think you try to make a dent into it. I mean, you're not-- You try to present the counter story or the counter of-- the facts in-- to counter what the accusation is. But does that feel like dropping the bucket? Does it feel deflating? Do you feel defeated sometimes?

Not really. I mean, the days that were defeating were the days where you'd answer the same question 50 times. There were days like that. That's okay. I mean, the truth is the fax questions were not the hardest ones. They're not the hardest ones in there. The hardest ones are the people who are the experienced, in-depth print reporters who are going to actually ask you the very hard question that's hard to answer because they've been working on it. That you may not expect. That you may not expect or you may see them in the room and you say, oh,

I need to like warm up before I get to that person. Yeah, because the point of my question was, or comment, was just the fact that, and Jay, I know you said you didn't get it, but what I was trying to say was,

It's not that surprising the questions you know that you're going to get that day. Sure. Right? That's true. So part of the job is to prepare for these things that are the issues of the day. Yeah, that's right. And there's a significant prep before you go out there, yes? I mean, that's why sometimes you guys are delayed, right? Because you're going to sit there with the man and say, well, what should our response be on X, Y, or Z?

Yeah, sometimes. And exactly the man I love. I think he'd like to be talking about Joe Biden. Yeah. Refer to that way. Dark Brandon, the man, the guy, whatever.

Exactly. Well, look, I mean, I think when I was in the job and I think anyone who's done that job sees their job as is speaking, of course, on behalf of the president. So you have to get feedback from that person to make sure you're projecting what they think, what their point of view is, what's actually going on. And sometimes, you know, the job when I was doing it, I always felt like it was just you want to push as hard.

hard as you can push on the system internally, whether it's the policy experts or the president or others to say, we need more, we need more, we need to be able to say more because you're kind of the bridge between the media, the press, and the president and the senior members of the team. So, yeah, sometimes it was delayed because of that. Is there a specific moment or question or any kind of thing that really sticks in your memory where you're super, super close to saying, why don't you go fuck yourself? Oh, yeah.

The people who know me well would say that like there were times where I basically did without saying go fuck yourself. So, yes, of course. I mean, there were certainly moments where I lost kind of my steam when it was the 11th or 12th time of a question being asked. And you just sort of but then what happens is that portion where you lose your steam or you.

don't give the full answer or you lose your temper is what goes online, right? So you can be aware of that. There was a particular, I don't remember who he's worked for, but he asked me about abortion all the time. And there was a time where I basically ripped his head off. So, you know, there are times because you're human. I'm an Irish lass in my heart. I can't be level-headed at all moments. But, you know, you try to

especially given the time that we are in and we were in two years ago, the whole goal was to try to be calm and even keeled because we needed to kind of take the venom out of the briefing room and return it to a place that was providing information to the public. And is the official...

that you're speaking on behalf of the president or you're speaking on behalf of the United States? Because there's a difference there, right? That is true. That's a very good question. Thank you. But kind of both. Guys, did you get that? Did you hear what she said? We're recording. Why do you think we...

Why do you think his nickname is Stopped Clock? Yeah. No, it's kind of the answer is both because sometimes the questions were about the president's view. He is the leader of the United States or the president's

or his schedule or his conversation. And then there were sometimes questions both about the policy of the United States. Which are sometimes at odds. And sometimes the president would say things that were at odds with the policy of the United States. That's when things got a little tricky. Jen Psaki, I want to get to know Jen Psaki. You were born in Stanford, Connecticut. Is that as far as... Well, I was born in New York City. Oh, I thought you were born in Stanford. It's all good. They're close by. When did you move to Stanford? Oh.

I mean, my parents were living there when I was born, but I was born in New York City Hospital. Okay, so you sound fine. Well, now you're arguing. Refresh your Wikipedia page. Yeah, I don't know. I'm also not Polish. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Not Polish? No. Not Polish. That's on your Wiki page too? I think so. No, I didn't say Polish. I didn't say it. Oh, I don't know. Maybe it's not on there anymore. I'm not sure. Are you Greek and Irish? What else? I am Greek and Irish. Greek and Irish. Yeah. You're Grirish.

I've never heard that, but I like that. Gryrish. What about your, so you have three sisters, oldest of three sisters. Your mom was a therapist. Yeah, still is. Still is. What was that like? Oh, she still is. I love that. I could use her. What was that like growing up? And did that kind of, you know, because therapists are very smart people. Did it teach you to communicate better? Oh, maybe. I mean, my mother didn't go to college until after I was born. Yeah.

And she didn't become a therapist until I was probably about nine or ten. And she used to have appointments in our house at night sometimes after we went to bed or later. But she always it never really she was always around, which was great for me as a kid. And she was obviously doing school and stuff.

But she still is like this great advice giver. I mean, as a mom, she's somebody I call and I think, what should I do about this? She's biased a little bit. So did she masquerade the therapy as parenting therapy?

Ever? You know what I mean? Like, did she mix the two? Yeah, she did. Although my sister and I still... My sister's two years younger. One of them's two years younger than me. And we still laugh about this time. I mean, my mom, you know, did therapy for families, troubled teens, their parents. And when we were in high school, we came home from high school one day and my mother said...

What is this? What is this? And she was holding something up. And she thought we were big into drugs or something or doing tons of drugs. And I was like, Mom, it's the drawstring to my shorts. You know, she has no... Even though she dealt with adolescence and all sorts of things, she really was also kind of a... Had a little blind spot around that sort of thing. Was Dad around? Dad was around, too. Yep. My dad...

Good for you, an Irish dad that stayed. Irish and Greek. Irish and Greek. Yeah. My dad is still, I mean, he's 80 now, but he, when I was growing up, it was like family vacations where he knocked on your door at 6 a.m. and you went out for a, you know, four-hour bike ride and then a six-hour canoe and then that was, maybe you could rest after that. There was an intensity. Sean's dad was 80. Sorry, he was going 80 when he left the country. Anyway.

You're gonna screw yourself, son.

And then I just had the black exhaust on my face. John stepped up to me when he was a kid, and it's been a source of a lot of laughs. A lot of laughs. And then, Jen, you married Greg. Yeah. Right? Sweet Greg. Yeah. Sweet Greg. He is. Chief of Staff to Congressman Joe Kennedy. He was, yeah. And where did you two meet? And do you... Same question about your mom now to you and your husband Greg and your kids. Do you now...

Is there debate that goes on in the House in a way that you, you know, because of your background? Oh, between us about politics? Yeah. Sometimes. I mean, we met at the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, which is very D.C. nerdy. Hot. Hot, exactly. Political rom-com. He brought me some Grater's ice cream, if anybody knows of Grater's in Cincinnati. What? I have it in my fridge right now. Best ice cream on the planet. Okay. Yeah, it was, that's where it all started. Rahm Emanuel. Yeah.

takes credit for us getting together um so that's funny because greg traveled with him um but yeah we dated long distance for a couple years you know all the things uh but still married 13 how long have you been married 13 years 13 years wow that's great and wait how old are your kids

They are five and almost eight. Eight on Thursday. Wow. Oh, my God. That's cool. And you took your daughter to the Taylor Swift concert I saw on Instagram. I did. Was that the greatest thing ever? I'm about to do the same thing. Oh. I hear it's a great show. How old? I should know this. I've got a 16 and an 11. Two girls. And do they know they're going? Yeah.

Yeah, and they're fired up. And I'm kind of fired up. We've got a mutual friend, Willie, that said it's the greatest concert he's ever been to. And he's our age. So he's been to a lot of shows and been to a lot of great shows. And I don't think he was exaggerating well, right? I mean, that sounded pretty sincere. And so I'm really looking forward to seeing it. Oh, yeah, yeah. He loved it.

Yeah, loved it. And when you say fired up, Jay, you mean you're firing up the chopper to land at SoFi because you don't like to deal with traffic. I don't like traffic. Not too much. I'm just going to hover, actually. I'm going to lower the kids down, but I'm going to stay up top. Oh, there it is. Oh, boy. Oh, see? Yeah, we're holding up ice cream to the camera. It's so good. It's really good. I love it.

Sean, by the way. Sean, you got a pint of ice cream in the house. Jen, I'm so sorry. If you looked in Sean's freezer, you'd see he's like, ice cream from Ohio. We got ice cream from Indiana. He's got ice cream from every state. It's okay. I think he's a Graders fan, so there you go. There it is. I like it. We'll be right back. And back to the show.

Jen, what's going on with the Hollywood Correspondents, or not Hollywood Correspondents, what's it called, the something Correspondents Center? The White House Correspondents Center. The White House Correspondents, that's right. Now, I went there once and I really- We were there. Right, yeah. We loved it. But-

Has it Has it taken It's taken a hit Lately right Well probably because Of the last administration No one really wanted to go But like Can we get that Back up and running And make it like Kind of like Make it cool again Wait does it not happen anymore I mean it does But

I want to go back. I think it can come back. I mean, I'm going to put some responsibility on all of you because in order for it to be fun, you've got to bring fun people who are not political. Well, why don't you invite us? You're invited. Why don't you have the sake table? Do you all want to come with NBC and MSNBC next year? Yeah, of course we do. Of course we do. Let's do it. What about the three of us will host it?

Yeah, how about that? Oh, together. Oh, you'd be so good. Now, the White House Correspondents Association determines if they're going to ask to invite to speak, but I can put in a good word with that. No, Peter Doocy's not going to ask us. You'd be good. There's better ones than us. The Doocy family doesn't want us to do it. No. I will say, one, I actually have a good relationship with Peter Doocy, but also this year it was the most...

Normal's not a good way of describing it because it's sort of a weird dinner. But people of all parties, different backgrounds, doing different things, all interacting. That's how it always used to be. And it kind of had a gap when it wasn't like that. So this year felt like that, which was kind of nice. And when is it traditionally? I forget. End of April. All right, well.

Or, well, sometimes May, but usually end of April. Okay. I want to know original career aspirations. Did you always, what were you into? Jay, sorry, Sean. Jay, how many gummies before the White House Correspondents? Oh, boy, I'll be really fired up for that one. Oh, boy.

Dude, I don't... I never leave the house with a gummy in my body. Okay. Are you crazy? Okay. And I don't have a freezer full of ice cream from every state. Yeah, and we're talking about vitamin gummies, right? Yes, of course. Of course. Obviously. I'll be. Sean. Sean. Original career aspirations, earliest memory, like the kind of career you wanted, like was this always your trajectory where you were like...

No, I have never had a five-year plan. I certainly didn't when I was five. I still don't. I love it. I love it. I did remember 2020 with Barbara Walters and Hugh Downs. I still remember the music. And when I was a little kid, I just thought that show was great, which is kind of a weird thing. I did too. I really...

exposing my nerdy side, which is kind of obvious. It was like more than just murder and mayhem, that show. It was different. Totally. Yeah, it was good storytelling. I mean, I wouldn't have defined it that way, but I liked that. I did say at some point that when Barbara Walters was ready to retire, or maybe I said something more heartless, like when she died when I was little, because you know you're insensitive as a little kid, that I wanted her job, because it seemed fun. Right.

It seemed like she was telling a story. That's not insensitive. No, it's just, we're all going to die. I mean, if you said it at her funeral, that would be. That would be. And as, you know, five, six, seven, eight-year-olds, you're a little, you know, you're funny, but you're a little off. Well, is that, now you say you don't have a five-year plan, but is that a natural progression of sort of the lane you're in now as far as media goes?

I mean, I really, the show is about three months old, four months old now. It's so good. Thank you very much. Yeah, he's doing such a great job. You're awesome. Every week, we just try to think of who we want to know more about, right? And try to have them on as a guest and what we want to know more about. And then I usually try to spend a couple hours with somebody so that we can do a piece about them that isn't just about the news of the day, but who are they and what are they thinking about and everything.

And actually, it's a show I think I would want to watch. But I always thought about what I wanted people to come away with, right? And I want them to feel like they're learning something, even about someone, something they didn't know. Maybe it's somebody they didn't think they agreed with or whatever. You know what I feel like I could probably watch a multi-episode series on is Ron Klain. I bet he could fill a bunch of episodes. I would like to do a bunch of episodes on Ron Klain. He is just such... Who is that? He was the chief...

Just go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead. He was the chief of staff, right? Biden's first chief of staff. He's now no longer. Where did he go? He was a fan of Smartless. Was he really? Oh, yeah. I've never talked to him, but I bet he is. And he was hugely instrumental in fixing our COVID situation before he became chief of staff, correct? Correct.

Yeah. This was this was this was in the transition. Yeah. Figuring out. Yeah. I mean, he was one. He's one of the smartest people I've ever met. And he is a person who doesn't really sleep. And so one of those people who you go to a meeting with and you think, I'm so prepared, I'm ready for all the things. And then he's 400 steps ahead of you. Where do you go now? What's he's a law firm. OK. And it's a huge asset we've lost. Damn it. Yeah, I know.

All right. How do you, were you privy to confidential information in the White House? Yeah. But like the stuff that the president knows? How about everything, Sean? Sorry, sorry. He's trying to work his way towards aliens and UFOs. Oh. A thousand percent. Just fucking say it. A thousand percent. Of course, I knew it. I knew it. I could smell it. That was quite a flirtation. I was like, where are we going with this?

this. You want to know if I knew who the bad guys were? Just fucking ask her about the UFOs. You know, I will say I had a lot of access to classified information, but there's this thing called need to know. And if you don't need to know, you don't necessarily have access to it.

And I wasn't on kind of the alien portfolio UFOs that wasn't in my group. Do you have any boxes in your bathroom at home? I don't. I don't. I don't have boxes in my bathroom. What can we do about what seems to be a very lightweight, cheesy, wood, blue-painted sliding door there for the press room? I'd like a switch. Let's switch out something about it.

Let's put a glossy blue on it. When you come and you do your tour of Meet the Press and the NBC and MSNBC offices here, we'll take you to – have you been to the briefing room? You've seen it, right? Have you been in there? At the White House? Yeah. Yes. Okay. It's very sad in there. I know. It got better. For these reporters and journalists who are doing amazing work. I mean it's borderline disgusting.

actually, where they work and they do their work. So it needs a whole reboot. That little pocket door. It's so sad, that little pocket door. The pocket door? Yeah, the little blue one. I know.

I know. Now, right behind that, right behind that, there seems to be a lot of action right behind that. What do we do? So if you walk out of the briefing room back into the White House, how far are you from the Oval Office from there? Or is there like a press room right there? There's what's called the lower press office where a lot of the spokespeople sit and journalists can come in and out. Then if you walk up a hallway, if you go to the right—

And then one more left, you're right at the Oval Office. If you go to the left, you're in the Rose Garden. Yeah, it's pretty small, right? Yeah, the whole White House is not big. It's very small. I do have a funny story about the pocket door. Can I tell you? Oh, please. The pocket door. In my first year working for Barack Obama, Bill Clinton came to visit and was meeting with him. And they were having this private meeting. It was also during a lot of the holiday parties. So a lot of the staff were over celebrating Christmas and holidays they celebrate. Right.

And only one or two, maybe 22 or 23 year olds were staffing the press office in case anyone needed anything. And President Obama, President Clinton came down and were trying to open that pocket door, which locks. Like Jason on the airplane in the dock.

I don't know. They were trying to open it because and the 23 or 24 year old said, can I can I help you with anything? And they said, we have some things we want to say and share with the press. Now, the reason this is funny, a number of reasons, but one of them is I think they were envisioning that any time you open that door, there's a bunch of reporters like sitting waiting.

And really, a lot of them were at the holiday party and other things. So they had to go run around and say to the reporters, get in your seats, get a pen, put shoes on, come back.

to the briefing room because two presidents are coming in. Wow. The pockets are some history. I don't know if you want to get rid of it. And then you've got like those stables outside, right? Where the reporters will do their hits from outside there along the driveway, right? Pebble Beach is what it's called. Yeah. Pebble Beach? Why do they call it that? I'm not sure.

I'm not even sure. But it's kind of a row of cameras, so they have the backdrop of the White House. They're like individual little sort of cordoned off tents, right? It's like a swanky hotel pool where you've got a bunch of cabanas. Something like that. I don't know if it's a swanky. Yes, or they stand on boxes in the freezing cold when it's raining and tell you what's happening at the White House or something like that. Jen, what's your biggest regret? Can I call you Jen? Sure. What else would you call me? I don't know.

What's your biggest... I guess Jennifer. What's your biggest regret? Or do you have any that you can share with us that you were like, oh, I wish I had...

done this or said this or responded this way? Every day. Every day I did that job. Every day I do a show now. Every time I end it and I say, I wish I would have said this, I wish I said that. Some are bigger than others. And when you're working on a show, and we've had that all as performers and actors and stuff, you have those days where you go, oh, I wish that...

But I mean more like because of what you were doing when you were working in government. Yeah. And the stakes are so much higher than as you now see. Now that you're doing TV, you see how low the stakes really are. Do you...

When you're actually, you know, helping to what you're doing is part of shaping policy and doing all that kind of stuff. Did you have any regrets going like, I wish that had gone this way or something like that? Yeah. Yes. Again, you don't have to get specific, but you can just. Oh, no. I mean, one, I didn't say there was the president still had confidence in the FBI director on my first day. By my first day, I already had a regret. I kind of made fun of the Space Force unintentionally because it has a funny name, but it hasn't improved.

Yeah, because it's a clown show. Well, the name is absurd, but they do an important job. Now, to the credit of the guy who was running it, he sent me a note and even a pin. It was very nice. But my biggest one is probably at the height of COVID when there was a demand for tests and there was a shortage of tests.

And people ask me 100 questions about this every day. And this was one of those moments of exasperation where it was like the 19th question about it. And I said, what do you want us to do? Send them to every American. And that's not actually what we ended up doing because it wouldn't have it would have been a waste. But we did end up doing a website where people could order tests. Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And either way, it was just flippant and insensitive and wasn't what I meant at the time. It was just like, I was like, I'm tired of answering this question. But yes, I wish that would have gone differently. But there's plenty of times. There's so many things I wish Sean had done differently. Yeah.

And he sends them to me. I wish he had a different flavor of graters, but that's for another combo. Yeah, no, I would love that. Now, Jen, we can cut this question or whatever you want, but it's on my list. It's something that I wanted to ask you about. Yeah.

We touched on it before about the massive, you know, the feeling, the sense of division in this country that kind of has never been here before. And being on now both sides as the press secretary and now having your own show, do you think the press is to... What level of blame, if any, is the press to about the division? Do you think they use too many superlatives and try to draw on these kind of...

make the biggest wave out of this story and that story just to get viewers? Or do you think the opposite and the press is just doing their job and they're doing a great job? I mean, from having been on both sides of it, but even... I think the majority of press are...

doing a good job and not just doing a good job, but doing kind of following their role, which is to kind of get to the bottom of the truth of things. Right. I think the majority of reporters and even though I've only been on this side for not that long, I've worked with reporters and journalists and media for decades. Right. So that is always been my belief. There are bad actors and people who do not behave that

and do not... That's me. And share misinformation. I've been accused of being... You correct yourself pretty quickly even when you spread, you know, moments. You have moments. But even... So there are bad actors who spread disinfo, who spread inaccurate information, who escalate things. A lesser...

Violation, I would say, are people who get too freaked out about everything, which also is not healthy. Everything is not a crisis. Right. And if you keep projecting everything as a crisis, people are going to turn off the TV and stop reading the newspaper. Right. So...

you can't tell everybody to freak out about everything. I mean, because, and we even sometimes do segments we call don't freak out because otherwise your nerves are so frayed and you just, it's a little boy who cried wolf. You don't know when it is actually something that is a crisis and something we should be worried about and not. There are some people though, you know, I have over 2000 employees in Minnesota, you know, who would do all need pillows. And you know, I'm not,

freaking out about anything, Jen. That's pretty good, Willie. That is good. That is pretty good. That's pretty good. You know, that is pretty good. You know, I see Jen Psaki on with a bunch of those liberal-leaning Hollywood elite on the podcast, you know. What's your favorite little piece of memorabilia that you still have from the White House? Oh, my God. Either official or that maybe no one knows that you've taken.

I'm trying to think of what I've taken. Yeah, you can tell us. We won't tell anybody. What have I taken from the White House? I didn't really take much. I do have my briefing book. Okay. I don't know that that's a real White House memorabilia. It's like from my experience. Of course it is. I didn't really take anything off the walls, I would say, because that would be bad.

What's stealing? Did your office have windows? Yeah. Your office did have windows? Yeah. There are many that don't, right? Yes. Were you in the executive building? No, I was in the West Wing. Oh, you were? Yeah. Because you loved that show. Why did I say that? Of course you were. Oh, I do. I do love it. Actually, I did not watch the West Wing when it came out. I did watch the whole entire series in 2012 after I left the Obama White House and

And it made me go back to government. So I was like a late bloomer of the West Wing, but it brought me back into government. I need to watch it. I'm such a fan. You've never watched it? I've never seen it. I've never seen it either. It's such a good show. So your show, is it complicated? Because I know it's complicated on the nighttime talk shows about booking guests. Mm-hmm.

There's, you know, well, you can't do this show after this show or you got to leave a couple of months later. Oh, yeah. There's some of that. Yeah, I'll bet. And I don't want to get you in trouble or make you uncomfortable, but that is part of the job is trying to negotiate the, you know, the guests, right? Because certain shows want certain guests and then you have to kind of wait your turn or there's a hierarchy. Yeah, I'll bet. Well, I don't know

I don't know if it's a hierarchy as much as you do have to do legwork, reaching out to people and engaging with them about being on your show. And why, you know, you never tell them like, this is what I'm gonna ask you, or I won't ask you this. But, you know, sometimes I think everybody has different pitches about the experience of their show.

So for me, I would tell people, we're going to give you more time. We want to explore more than just the news of the day. I want to go take a walk with you or cook with you or run with you or whatever, which is a little bit different than other shows. My show is also newer. So some other shows are like I've been around for a long time and my viewership is whatever it is. Everybody has different pitches. But you got to do some legwork on it.

And do your homework. I mean, I'm always... Because I've been all sides of the pitches of things, I always laugh. I mean, I can't even imagine the number of pitches you all get for... I don't even know. But people send me...

to pitch being on the show that has, it's like, have you ever watched the show? I mean, this hasn't been around that long, but they're like things that have nothing to do with what we do. Right. And so, you know, it's from well-meaning PR people. That's completely fine. I respect the profession, but my, what I've learned is you really have to do the homework and read the 20 articles about a person to say, I thought it was so interesting about this or that or what, what have you. So yeah, you gotta do, you gotta do there, but there, you know, of course there's like a little competition about who has who and all that kind of stuff.

kind of stuff. Right. But if somebody likes to say Andrew Weissman is like on salary, basically like it was, is he told what shows to do or does he get to pick what shows he does? He gets to pick what shows he does. But, but if people watch him all day, Oh, he's the best, isn't he? And you do. And you do. And he has a dog named Ennis. I've been to his apartment. We did a whole thing. That apartment just shoots. Incredible. I mean, room Raider must be out of their mind.

He always scores highly with Room Raider. He's got art you can't even see in the apartment. I know, he's got the metal staircase. You know you've got good art if you're not showing it. You know what I'm saying? I mean...

No, he picks. But people book people up. They kind of lock them in if they know because the legal story is going to be big for a while, it seems. That's my most diplomatic way of saying it. Do you get to decide your fill-in when you go on vacation? You get to decide who takes over for you? Or does that come from the high up? Yeah, I think so. I think you kind of have a conversation. I haven't missed a show yet, so I don't know yet. All right. Well.

Well, you can go on for an Oscar for me. Listen, Jen Psaki, you've taken up way too much of your time. We love you. I felt like two minutes. Damn it. I want to leave with this, Jen, because I really mean it.

I want to say thank you for always imbuing the idea and the sense that every human being should be treated equal. And you've always said versions of that throughout your entire career. I don't understand who wouldn't be for that idea that all human beings should be created equal. But so thank you for always saying that. You always seem to be a very decent person. Thank you. I believe that.

I mean, in a lot of ways, I don't see myself as a partisan or as a Democrat, even though I've worked in Democratic politics. I see myself as somebody who believes in kind of morally what is right and not justifying discrimination. And that is what gets me. It came across. It came across. Yeah. You're very exciting to listen to and to watch because of your intellect and your...

you know, there's some people can have an intellect, but they're kind of old and stodgy. There's a current, there's a relevance to your sensibility about things and your way in which that you articulate that is always exciting to listen to. So thank you. Thank you so much. So great to meet you. Huge fan. Happy third birthday. Thank you. And good luck with the show. We'll keep watching. Thank you so much. Thanks, Jen. Bye.

What about that Jen Saki? Jen Saki. I love Jen Saki. You know. Anybody with a silent P. Especially with, she should open a sushi place, right? Jen Saki. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I saw that coming from a mile away.

And Jay, she was on your list for a while, right? She was, yeah. But, you know, I mean, I've got a lot of – I don't push for the political folks because I know we try not to get too political on this show. But, man, I've got a long list of folks. Maybe I should start a different podcast. One on the side, right? Yeah.

But yeah, I'm fascinated with all that political stuff, especially now. And I love the way she said, Sean, in sort of in answering your question at the end when you were talking about just about this idea that she's not trying to be one way or the other. Like, in fact, if anything, she just wants to come across as very bipartisan. Oh, nice. Bye. She works for Joe Biden. Are you still? Don't harmonize.

You can't harmonize the byes. Smartless is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Bennett Barbico, Michael Grant Terry, and Rob Armjarff. This episode was recorded on July 11th.

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