Funology (YES, FUN) with Catherine Price
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Let's have at it. Okay, this guest, hugely popular 2022 TED Talk. It racked up millions and millions and millions of views. It's titled, Why Having Fun is the Secret to a Healthier Life. Scientifically, what is fun? Who has it? How? And as a science journalist, she has researched topics like the culture of wellness, what's fact, what's not.

What's Flim Flam, all about screen life balance, and wrote the book, The Power of Fun, How to Feel Alive Again. So when I put out the call for questions at patreon.com slash ologies, one patron, Tabitha Delangelo, upon hearing that the topic was fun, not knowing who we were interviewing, offered, if you have not yet read it, check out The Power of Fun by Katherine Price. Tabitha,

We were one step ahead of you. Also, thank you to all the patrons who support the show. We literally could not do it without you. And thanks to everyone tagging their photos in Ologies merch so we can see where you've been this summer and repost them. Merch is at ologiesmerch.com. Also, thanks to everyone who leaves reviews because, yes, I read every single, single one of them. And this week's select is from Walker Barrow who wrote, pick any episode and you will be instantly hooked. So,

So if this is your first one, I hope it hooks you. Or maybe you're already hooked from the one on worms. Okay, let's get to the ology. So as you're about to learn, there's very little on this as an independent discipline. So this is a rare episode where I have to task myself with fabricating an ology for it, which we never do. We do not like to do. So I started designing a

And then...

I did it. I Googled fun ology being like, no one's used that right. Wouldn't you know it? Hundreds of previous uses of that. Listeners, friends, children, I don't want this to be fun ology. I don't want that to be the title and neither do you. I know it, but I cannot argue with precedent. So, yeah,

With a cringing heart, I'm sorry, it's got to be funology. Don't blame me because there aren't any real funologists out there, as you'll hear. Anyway, we're going with it. But yes, this writer spent, again, years digging into the research and is an expert on what scientifically fun actually is.

So limber up, shake off your troubles, fill your ears with info about adult versus childhood fun. What even is fun by definition? Do introverts have special alone fun? What's the difference between happiness and laughter and fun? What does fun do to your actual meatballs?

I am Katherine Price and she... Okay, fun expert.

I mean, pretty much. You wrote a book about this. How often do people in...

casual social situations like your friends, how much are you pressured to bring the party or be uplifting in situations? Does that happen to you? I don't know how often I'm pressured to be the fun person per se. Although when I go to conferences and stuff, I definitely have had people refer to me as the fun lady. And that feels like it comes with a bit of an expectation. Well,

Well, how did you steer your job toward this? Because we get paid to do jobs because typically they are not fun, although hopefully...

people can get into a field where they are somewhat inspired by it or it is fun. But I mean, this is a question that you must get asked at every single conference and dinner party. You know, I actually don't get asked that question too often. I basically never had a field other than writing that I was interested in. And I also have always been consumed by an awareness of my own mortality. And so I think I've had a personal

I don't know, compulsion to want to feel like I'm living as fully as I possibly can. And I have a hard time taking orders from anybody who's also that. So I had a professor in college who had this philosophy of what he called creative drift. And the basic idea was that

you should do whatever you're doing in the moment as well as you possibly can, and then have faith that that is going to open up opportunities for you that you couldn't possibly predict. And that that's going to lead to a more interesting life than if you try to achieve your goals head on. Like his example, I think was that he wanted to be in the national park service somehow, and he could have become an intern and then worked his way up the ranks, but instead he took the circuitous route and eventually was invited to be a pretty high up, you know, member of the parks service and,

that he never would have been offered had he taken the direct route. So anyway, that's kind of how I've tried to lead my life. I always knew I was interested in writing. I pursued freelance journalism after college, which is not a great career idea. It wasn't then and it certainly is not now. Been there. Yeah. So my first major book was about the history of vitamins and nutrition. And that was in part because I have type 1 diabetes.

And in part because Michael Pollan, the food writer, was my journalism school mentor. And also in part because my husband had a dream one night in which for some reason he was thinking, what's a vitamin? And asked me, what's a vitamin the next day? And I said, I don't really know. And he said, you should write a book about it. And so off I went. But then more relevantly, how I got to this project is that we had our daughter in 2015. And at a certain point, I realized that I was spending a lot of time

looking at my phone when I was with her and she was looking at me as I was looking at my phone. And I really did not like that. I have a background in mindfulness. And again, I try to live a meaningful and joyful and present life. And so that led me to write this book, How to Break Up With Your Phone. And then I had this realization that

If you take back the time that we spend on our phones, you end up with a lot of free time. And if you're like me, that can lead to a minor existential crisis where you suddenly don't know what you want to do with yourself and feel just panicked. But long story short, that led me to a new journey of exploration that led to me becoming very curious about the feeling of fun. And so that's how I got to this point. I really have tried to follow my interests. And yeah, there have been ups and downs. But right now,

And Catherine says that being a parent has also shifted her focus to enjoying life more and being an example of more mentally healthy routines, especially after her 2018 book about scrolling habits came out and her daughter, 9, was born.

has been listening, as children do. I mean, she started giving copies of How to Break Up With Your Phone to her babysitters, which is way more confrontational than I am, but I'm like, yeah. We really do try to model the idea that it's really important to have fun and be present with each other and be playful and connected. When you started researching

fun. How did you start to crack into that? How many different types of experts like multidisciplinary did you have to talk to? Because I imagine there are so many different aspects of play and fun and relaxation and distraction. How did you start to crack into that?

Well, I should probably give you the backstory of like how the phone led to fun. So I had a mini existential crisis when I started spending less time on my phone, but I hadn't yet identified what I wanted to spend time on. And in one of these mini crises, critical moments, whatever, I was in the middle of a crisis. I asked myself this question I'd ask people when I was writing How to Break Up With Your Phone, which was what's something you say you want to do, but you supposedly don't have time for. And the logic there was that we do have more time than we realize. We're just spending a lot of it mindlessly scrolling.

And so my answer to that question was I wanted to learn how to play guitar because I played piano since I was a kid and I love music and I have a guitar, but I didn't really know how to play it. So I ended up signing up for this adult music class at what was actually a children's music studio, but it was like BYOB. It met on Wednesday nights. It was this group of other parents who were there to just play together, like both literally and metaphorically, because we weren't going to perform. This was not like we're going to become rock stars.

And I started just really looking forward to Wednesday nights in a way that felt a little bit foreign, especially because at that point I was a new parent. And I think that, you know, I'd been so engrossed in like early parenting. There was just this feeling of freedom and euphoria that I was having in this class. It felt very foreign at that time.

And I started getting curious about what that feeling was. And it took me an embarrassingly long time to put a word to it. And eventually I was like, oh, I'm having fun. I'm having fun. This feels really good. I want more of this. And then that's when the science journals really kicked in. I was like, well, what is fun? What is this? And then I got very curious about like, what is this doing to me? It feels so good emotionally. Is it doing anything physically? What do we know? What's the research about fun?

And that's when I think it got really interesting because when I tried to look into a definition of fun, what I found was totally inadequate in terms of how well it matched what I was experiencing. The dictionary definition basically said it was enjoyment or amusement or lighthearted pleasure.

Which is true, but this was lighting me up for the entire week. And it was bringing out this feeling of joy that was just so nourishing. It was not just kind of simple pleasure. Sounds so nice. And then I looked into the research. So I started to look into PubMed, you know, the biomedical database and just seeing what was there, like looking in textbooks and stuff.

And there was basically nothing. Like when I looked in PubMed the first time, one of the absolute top hits was this article that was called Putting the Fun in Fungi. And it was about toenail fungus.

And that was kind of when I knew I needed to write a book about it because I was like, okay, that's hilarious. Definitely not the type of fun I'm talking about. And seriously, if that's the top hit on research on fun, like that's crazy because this is a word we use all the time. So I started to look into some of what the other non-fungal papers were. Most of them really didn't apply, but there were a couple that said things like,

"Fun" is not a term in any index of any psychology textbook of which we're aware. That struck me as really weird. Katherine was shocked to see that there were experts in play, but not in fun. She couldn't even find a scientific definition of fun. And so she embarked on some of her own research, speaking to experts about the elements of fun, which we're going to learn in a second, and also doing some sociological data gathering.

So that's how I kind of got into it. But I was genuinely shocked that there was so little out there about fun, considering we all use that word all the time. We all think we know what fun is, but what is fun? And how is fun different from play and different from joy?

So basically, like what I did for the research for this, and I should note, this was in, by this point, it was like April of 2020 when I signed the book contract. So this was like full on lockdown. And folks, people are still getting COVID. So be careful out there. But during the lockdown, a lot of time at home to work on a sociology mission. So it was a very interesting period of time to be thinking about fun and to be asking other people to think about fun. But anyway, I asked people on my mailing list,

to, if anyone was interested, fill out a survey where I asked people to share with me three examples from their own lives that they would describe, of memories they would describe as having been, quote, so fun, with the so capitalized because I'm a science journalist. I didn't know how else to phrase it. It wasn't very technical. And then I asked them, can you describe an experience or something you might plan that would feel fun if you could do anything right now? And it was absolutely fascinating because

I got thousands of responses to this survey and it was from people all around the world. And the details they shared with me were obviously different, right? But there were commonalities that kept popping out. Like the feeling was the same. So the emotion was the same. And then there were themes that popped out. One thing that really stood out to me is that

There was something very powerful, emotionally moving about these stories people were sharing that did not, again, match up with the dictionary definition of fun just being lighthearted pleasure. So when I read through people's stories, I often found myself simultaneously with a huge smile on my face, but also feeling like I was about to cry. Like there was something very moving about these stories.

And there were also three themes that kept popping out again and again and again to the point that I came to conclude or hypothesize that they constitute a definition of what fun truly is that's more accurate than the idea that it's just lighthearted enjoyment. And then I ran my definition by the people who had shared their stories with me to see if they agreed that this would match their experiences. And the vast majority of people said it did capture it. So my hypothesis is that true fun is

is the confluence of three states. Okay, so pay attention. Fun has three ingredients and they are... And those three states are playfulness, connection, and flow.

So playfulness is often misconstrued by adults as meaning you need to act like a child or you need to be silly or somehow be immature, which makes a lot of people very uncomfortable. But to clarify, I'm actually talking more about the attitude that you bring to a situation or your life, like a playful attitude, finding ways to laugh, not taking yourself too seriously, you know, letting down your guard, regardless of what the actual activity is. And that was nearly universal. Actually, I would say it was universal in people's stories, this spirit of playfulness. Yeah.

The element of connection was interesting because truly the vast, vast, vast majority of stories people shared with me, there was another person involved. And that was true even for people who self-describe themselves as introverts.

And I found that fascinating. Sometimes dogs were involved, but really it was normally people. And it was to the point that, you know, I asked people, did anything surprise you about what you just told me? And there were a number of people who said something like, I'm an introvert, but all the stories I just told you had another person in them. So there seems to be this element of having a shared experience, like a special shared experience. And that was actually one of the top picks when I gave people a list of descriptors that they could choose to describe their fun experiences. Special shared experience was one of the top alongside laughter. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Exactly. And it also was helpful in that particular moment because it meant that if any possibilities for human connection arose, I should take them like, you know, a Zoom happy hour. Would I want to do that right now? No. But like then, yes, yes, please. Because that's like as close as you're going to get. So, so far we have one playfulness.

Two, shared experience, maybe a human or an animal connection. And then the last element was flow. And flow is a, as your listeners may already know, it's a term that describes the state we get into when we're totally actively engrossed in something that we're doing, like often to the point where you lose track of time. So the quintessential example is an athlete playing a game or

The psychologist who coined the term Csikszentmihalyi, he actually used the example of rock climbers. He did a lot of interviews with rock climbers because if you're scaling a rock wall, your mind is not wandering. You're totally focused on what you're doing in that moment. And Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, it's quite a name, a Hungarian psychologist and author, coined that term flow after many, many interviews with painters and rock climbers and hobbyists.

factory workers, people across all these different vocations and interests. And he kept hearing about being swept away in something like a river of focus, hence the

the term flow. And his 1990 book, Flow, The Psychology of Optimal Experience, was on so many artists and politicians' nightstands. It probably still is. And in it, he wrote, flow happens when a person's skills are fully involved in overcoming a challenge that is just about manageable. So it acts as a magnet for learning new skills. So too easy, you get bored. Too hard, it

and it sucks and provokes anxiety. But flow happens also where there are some clear goals and some high stakes and being in your body. Csikszentmihalyi was not a fan of TV. And though he died just a few years ago at age 87, he probably would not have thought highly of the amount of time I've spent looking at an algorithm of DIY home renovations, especially since I'm not doing any DIY home renovations.

In fact, some sociologists have noted that the ubiquity of television in the 1940s and 50s has a direct correlation to a drop in hobbies and in inventions. People were too occupied with the Ed Sullivan show to go tinker on things in the garage. And now we're too occupied with content of people tinkering in their garage to tinker in our garage. But why did he cite rock climbing so much? What was the deal with that? Well,

He was also a rock climber, and he said in his book that the mystique of rock climbing is climbing. You get to the top of a rock, glad it's over, but really wish it could go on forever, he writes. The justification of climbing is climbing. I will note...

it's always a good day when you don't fall to your death. And for more on that in particular, you can see the show notes for our quasi-thanatology episode about near-death experiences. But we all can get into flow in less dramatic situations like this conversation, for example, or in a work project. But it's basically like you're not distracted. You are actively engaged and focused. It's not the same as losing track of time if you're watching TV, which I always like to clarify. That's what Csikszentmihalyi called junk flow. And that's a different state. It's very active. So...

What I came to conclude for myself and propose is that true fun is the center of that Venn diagram where you have playfulness and connection and flow all existing at once. I think that kind of answers your question about play, that play is part of fun or playfulness is part of fun. I'd also want to clarify like fun is a feeling. It's not actually an activity.

I think a lot of times people will say, oh, you know, like what's fun? And they'll say, oh, I don't know, like going to concerts or pickleball was very common for a while. But it's like we all have times when we went to a concert and it was incredibly fun. And then we went to a concert, maybe even the same performer, and it wasn't so fun. So it's not so much about the activity itself, but rather the feeling that's produced. And then in terms of joy, when you're asking about what do I see the difference being between fun and joy? I think that fun is a type of joy.

Like they kind of fit together, but they're not the same. Like you can have joy that's not playful. Like the example I always use is the birth of a child, right? Or you're not laughing necessarily. No, I'm crying. So I think that they're related, but they're not the same. But that fun, the feeling of fun produces joy. Like if you're having fun, you're probably also feeling pretty joyful in that particular moment. When we think that we're relaxing or having fun by scrolling and by consuming energy,

other people's fun on a tiny screen. How do you think that's different from the lasting feeling we get when we're doing something with someone else and we're in flow and we're losing track of time and we're being goofy and we're not being so hard on ourselves or self-conscious? Why do we get sucked into doing things that are not actually great for us or our brain, but they eat up so much of our time when they're not really fun?

Yeah, I think you bring up a number of important points there. Because first of all, those are different experiences. Like mindlessly scrolling or passively consuming stuff is not the same as having this like joyful interaction with people or having an experience. And that's part of the reason I think it's so important to get dorky about what the word fun means. Because we use the word fun to describe both of those things. You know, anything we do with our leisure time, we typically...

think of as, oh, we did that for fun. But is social media scrolling fun? I think if you actually thought about that, most people would say, no, no, it's not. That's not fun. That's just something I do to relax or it's a waste of time. But I also think it's important to clarify,

I think, sorry, first of all, thank you for asking me all these detailed questions because I often feel like people will be totally bored by me getting this detailed. So hopefully your listeners are into this. Hell yeah, we are. Oh, let's get nerdy about it, right? I think about our leisure time as being dividable into three buckets. And one bucket would be the things that lead to this feeling of true fun, right? This feeling of playful, connected flow, right?

And to me, those are the things that I at least want to prioritize the most, because that is such a wonderfully nourishing feeling. And it's so good for us on so many levels, which we can talk about more. And then on the other side of the spectrum, I think of activities that produce the feeling of what I call fake fun.

And that's why I keep saying true fun instead of just fun. Cause I think opposite is fake fun. And that's stuff like scrolling through social media for too long or watching TV to the point where you actually just feel gross. It's kind of like junk food. So,

I think of fake fun as being activities or products or services that are marketed to us as fun, but they don't actually produce this feeling of playful connected flow. And they're kind of like junk food where they're very easy to binge on. And in fact, they're designed to be easy to binge on, to answer your question about why we do that so often, even if it doesn't feel good. But then we feel gross afterwards, kind of like when you eat an entire bag of potato chips and then you're like, what did I just do? Yeah.

But then I also think it's important to note there's this big middle category of things we just enjoy kind of in a quieter way, like solitary hobbies or interests like reading or going for a walk or doing a craft or even watching TV or movies to the point where it's still enjoyable. Like just watching a couple episodes of your favorite show instead of watching seven hours of it.

So solitary hobbies and passive consumption can be enjoyable and healthy. But if we're getting real dorky and real pedantic, they are not the same as what Catherine calls capital TF true fun. But solitary or passive hobbies are also not mindlessly unhealthy junk or fake fun. And that's really important for us to recognize because those activities are often more accessible because you can do them alone. And there's a lot of

they're very nourishing in kind of a different way. They're kind of like rejuvenating in a quieter way than the things that might lead to true fun. What about people who have different types of fun? Do people experience fun different ways? If you've got, let's say, ADHD and you're a little bit more wired for dopamine, or if you are on the autism spectrum and

maybe you are more introverted. Did you find that there was a lot of variance or did you find that those kind of three aspects of fun were pretty universal? I found that those aspects of fun or those three ingredients of fun were pretty universal, playfulness and connection and flow. But what that looks like to different people is different. And I don't want to hypothesize about anyone's particular individual experience, but I can say more broadly speaking that

I mean, I think about the concept of what I call fun magnets and each of us has a different collection of fun magnets. So an activity that often leads to me feeling this playful connected flow, like for me, maybe not the same as what does it for you. And that would apply, I think in the neurodivergent situation too, but it doesn't even have to do with neurodivergence as much as it does the diversity of people and our interests and how we respond to situations. So just as a concrete example, a,

100% fun magnet for me or nearly all the time is playing music with friends like that just tends to generate the feeling of fun for me. So that is a fun magnet for me. My husband, on the other hand, does not play an instrument. That wouldn't be it's not fun to him at all. Like that is not a fun magnet. That's like horrible. And also, if he were to tag along, like,

it wouldn't be fun for me because I'd be aware of my husband and that he's not having fun. So it's been very helpful in our relationship to recognize like, that's one of my fun magnets. It's not one of his. On the flip side, he really loves like multi-day camping trips, you know, in remote locations where you hike up hills and then like sleep on the ground. And I have really bad knees and I, I like my bed. So like, that's not a fun magnet for me. To each his own. My point being like,

I do think that the feeling of fun and the energy it produces in those three ingredients, the playfulness and connection of flow, those appear to be universal. But each of us reaches that state via a different path. And so that's why when I collected people's stories, all the details were different. People were doing very different things and they were with different sorts of people. Sometimes they were alone, you know, but the resulting feeling tended to be the same.

So while fun tends to incorporate those three elements, play, connectedness, maybe with a horse or a friend or the universe, and flow, we may have different activities that present that Venn diagram of true fun. So mulling over yours, staring into space at a bus stop, recalling the good times, maybe looking through your phone's photos to be like, hey, that was fun, or just thinking of yours is a great place to start, say, a little bit of a fun time.

scientifically speaking. Do they know, like in a functional MRI, what parts of the brain are lighting up when you're having fun? Like what networks go on or offline or what happens physiologically? Well, again, there's no research on fun. Oh, and I think it'd be very difficult to get someone into an fMRI scan. You're like, let me put you this thing on your head while you're playing soccer. I don't think I would...

So no, I don't think, I mean, for fun per se, I don't think that we can say for sure what's happening. But I would say like, what I came to conclude is that if you buy my hypothesis that it is the confluence of these three states, there is research about what happens when we're experiencing social connection, for example, or when we're in flow.

Take, for example, the 2017 study, The Connection Prescription, using the power of social interactions and the deep desire for connectedness to empower health and wellness, which notes that there is significant evidence that social support and feeling connected can help people maintain a healthier body composition, can control blood sugars, improve cancer survival, decrease cardiovascular mortality, decrease depression.

depressive symptoms. Feeling connected can mitigate PTSD symptoms and improve overall mental health. And that the opposite of connection, social isolation, they say, has a negative effect on health and can increase depressive symptoms as well as mortality. The

There's also the 2010 meta-analysis titled Social Relationships and Mortality Risk, and that dug through like 150 papers and it crunched some numbers to find that social connections with friends and family and neighbors or colleagues improves the odds of survival by 50%.

And if you're alone in a room, a dark room that's like a closet, like I am recording this right now, how bad can isolation be? Well, to quote the study, low social interaction was reported to be similar to smoking 15 cigarettes a day, having alcohol addiction, or not exercising at all. And low social interaction is twice as harmful as having unhealthy body composition. So

More fun is playfulness plus social connections plus flow equals a longer life. But more importantly for United States citizens, not having to make a GoFundMe to cover chemo or physical therapy bills. So get thee to a carnival or a knitting circle or a kickball league or a kazoo band like your life depends on it because it does. One thing I found particularly interesting in terms of a physiological thing is the idea of what...

Fun is the opposite of. So if you think about...

things we know that are very, very bad for us over time, like emotional stress, right? Very bad for us because it raises our levels of cortisol, which is a stress hormone that is there to help us run away from immediate physical threats. Because it does things like, I mean, you guys probably know this, but like, you know, it spikes your blood sugar and it increases your heart rate and your blood pressure. Those are great things if you have to run away. But if that happens over time, you can see why that might lead to increased risks for all sorts of health conditions like

you know, well, high blood pressure itself or heart attack or stroke or type two diabetes, et cetera. So stress, the opposite of fun. Emotional isolation, social isolation and loneliness, those have the same effects. The same health risks are associated with those states and probably because of the cortisol levels that come from we as a social species being isolated and alone. So if you know that emotional stress and then loneliness and isolation are very bad for us physically and actually do increase health risks, I

I think it stands to reason that an intervention like fun that does the opposite might also have the opposite effect, by which I mean when people are having fun, it's a very relaxed and open state.

And it's also, as we were just talking about, usually a state in which you're feeling socially connected. I didn't read any stories for people's fun experiences where they said they were lonely during the experience. But I think that given the fact that fun is an open, relaxed state that often involves social connection, it makes sense to hypothesize that it would be good for us on a physical level. Yeah. It's interesting, too, because I feel like after the lockdown, so many people started working from home. Mm-hmm. And...

I feel like there's probably been a bit of a shift in general about how isolated we are because we realized we could be and it was more convenient in some cases. And, you know, there's still spikes in the pandemic and things like that. So it's just kind of more inbuilt into our society now into our culture. But yeah, it's really tricky because it's so much easier. I mean, we're doing this interview. It's 3 p.m. where I am and I am still in my pajama pants because I've been working from home all day and just have Zoom calls. Oh, boy. Okay. Cheers. Literally safe. Oh,

Oh my God. I changed my shirt before I logged on. I'm still in pajama. I'd like to say I did, but I think if I'm being honest with, I think I fell asleep in this shirt because I wore it yesterday. Anyway, we need that. Get into that. Moving on. This life is so much more convenient. Not going to, I never had an office, but like if you had an office, it's more convenient not to go into the office. It feels easier to just, cause it is cause it's inertia. So it actually, I think really does require us to think, wait a second, like

does this feel good? I think to some degree it feels good. It's lovely to be able to work from home, but I've always had a freelance role for myself where if it is past noon and I'm still in my pajama pants, that's not a good day. And I think it is worth kind of like

Thinking about that individually and as a society and as, you know, your workplace, whatever, is like, how do we bring back that feeling of genuine human connection? Because I think it's really lacking right now and it's causing a lot of problems. Well, I'm wondering when you were talking about fun magnets and making time for fun.

How do people work that out for themselves? Is it trial and error? Is it sitting down with a piece of paper and figuring out what gives them excitement? There's a couple different ways you can do it. I mean, maybe if you're listening to this, you've already kind of started to reflect on like, oh, yeah, that is fun to me. But I think you could have a conversation with a friend, say that you listen to this conversation between us and let's try to figure out what are your fun magnets. If you're the journaling type, you could do it on paper.

One way in is to just think back on some of your own fun experiences, like things that stand out in your own mind as having been so fun. But you might be surprised to find, like to notice the people that keep popping up. Because maybe you have one friend that you really enjoy having like intense emotional conversations with, but they're not the same person that you feel the most joyful and free and alive with, you know? And you might be surprised by the settings. I've had a lot of people who will say things like, oh, I thought I hated being outside. Yeah.

But like all of my fun memories involve horseback riding or something like that. They were outside. But like you might just be kind of surprised if you just start to write down some past fun experiences by what themes emerge. And that's a way to find fun magnets. And then what you do with that is you can look at your list to be like, oh, well, these are my priorities in your limited leisure time. These are the things you should prioritize and try to just spend more time on. And then you can go a step further if you want. This is for the real, real dorks out there is like,

ask yourself what characteristics these things share. I think of these as like fun factors, like maybe nature and outdoorness, I'm not sure that that is a word, being outside, is like popping up again and again and again. Well, then you know that if you have the option to do something outside, it's probably a good idea. Or like maybe, you know, for me, like music is a fun factor. If there's music, I'm probably going to enjoy it more than something else. Or maybe it's physicality, or maybe it's

performance for some people, you know, maybe it's risk, maybe it's thrill. Like there's all these kind of characteristics that you might start to notice like, oh yeah, I typically really enjoy myself when that's present. And you can use that to start to curate what you spend time on. So if you were to think back on your most fun memories, what might they have in common? Like what were you doing? What made you become a real goof without caring? What made you feel seen and accepted and connected? And what did you lose yourself in?

And in her book, Catherine also notes this hierarchy of needs that have to be fulfilled to even think about fun. Things like safety and food and water and shelter, which in some societies and conditions are simply too difficult to secure. But if you are lucky and privileged...

and safe enough to be able to think about making your life more enjoyable, those are the elements. Now, as a science writer and someone who spent years researching and interviewing experts and laypeople, Catherine saw these greater patterns that help individuals figure out their own sources of true fun, which we also need to survive in the long run. All work, no play makes the guy with the axe a real asshole.

But I think it's really important to note that what I'm talking about right now is a very engineered approach to fun, where it's like figure out your fun magnets and then schedule Saturday afternoon. And that's like, I think is actually essential for a lot of adults because for adults, our lives are so busy that spontaneous fun is less likely. Like when you're a kid, you just were having fun. You didn't really have to think about it. But as adults, we actually do need to go through these kind of seemingly academic exercises to kind of

figure that out and make sure we're prioritizing it. But on the flip side, we also just need to be a little bit more open to spontaneous fun and maybe try to like get into more of what I think of as a fun mindset or just make a bit more space in our lives, reduce distractions so that when you see like a friend's number pop up in your phone at three o'clock,

you know, on the afternoon and you normally would silence it to instead be like, you know what, I'm going to talk to them for 15 minutes because that might actually be fun. And it's spontaneous or if someone proposes or if you propose a spontaneous activity, like say yes to it. So there's two sides. There's like the engineered fun. And there's also just like opening ourselves to opportunities for fun that probably are floating around us already or creating those kinds of spontaneous opportunities.

Okay, here are some things that sound fun to me. You did not ask, but I asked myself. So I'm telling you, checking out maybe some outdoor movie screenings, mini golf, I would hit that. I'd do it. A county fair, finding out who has fruit trees that you're welcome to pick from and then going for a walk and taking that fruit, baking a new recipe with someone you like, volunteering, oddly fun, trust me. So it was a craft night or a game night, a photographic

bug hunt, see the appareology episode about that? Always down for that. Making stuff out of clay also sounds like a blast. These may not be your ideals, but think about what has those elements of getting lost in the moment or hanging out with another alive thing and just getting to kind of dick around with no stakes.

Or even just picking up the phone and saying, oh, hey, I got 15 minutes. Let's talk about something of zero importance. And if I took a step back, I'd be like, Catherine, what are you actually doing at 315? You're scrolling through the news and checking your email over and over again. And the work, quote unquote, is just that you're still sitting in front of the computer. If you were more thoughtful about it, you'd take the call, walk around the block while talking with your friend, and then come back to your computer refreshed and be more productive. Yeah.

Oh, that's so true. I have 1 billion questions. May I ask them? All of them. Every single one of them. Word for word in great detail. I'm already in my pajamas. We can go all night. But before we dive into your questions, let's take a fistful of cash and let's lob it toward a worthy cause. And this week, Catherine would like it to go to BreakthroughT1D.org, which was founded in 1970 by families whose loved ones had been diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. T1D, if you're cool.

And Breakthrough T1D is a leading global type 1 diabetes research and advocacy organization, all with the goal to make T1D a thing of the past. So a donation will go to them in Catherine's name, in the name of her pancreas, thanks to sponsors of the show. When U.S. Bank says they're in it with you...

they mean it not just for the good stuff the grand openings and celebrations although those are pretty great but for all the hard work it took to get there the fine-tuning of goals the managing of cash and workflows and decision making they're in to help you through all of it

Because together, they're proving day in and day out that there is nothing as powerful as the power of us. Visit usbank.com to get started today. Equal Housing Lender, member FDIC, copyright 2024, U.S. Bank.

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Listen, it's Spooktober, which means it's the season of costumes and masks. One mask that you might not want to wear is the kind when you pretend to be someone else and to think and say different things in order to just survive in a social setting.

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Start Ritual or add Essential for Women 18 Plus to your subscription today. So that's ritual.com slash ologies for 25% off. Down the hatch and into your body. Okay, let's leap into the ball pit of your questions.

Get your hand sanitizer. Okay, first question. Hi, this is Elliot. I'm in Seattle, Washington. And my question is, is fun contagious the same way that laughter is? I know if I start laughing about something, other people will laugh along with me. But if I am having fun, will other people have fun just watching me or will they just kind of walk on by scratching their head? Is fun contagious? Yes.

Oh, I like that question. I've never been asked that question. I think it can be. I don't think it always is because you could have a situation where the people around are total wet blankets. I don't mean that too dismissively of the other people. I think that a lot of us are so stressed and so tense that it's really hard for us to actually open ourselves to fun. With that said, yeah, I think it is contagious. If you see that people are having fun and you're involved in that and they're laughing, I mean, fun and laughter are so intertwined. Laughter, I think, is the number one sign that you're having fun. So

If laughter is contagious, yes, fun is also contagious. I'd also say one thing I've observed that I thought was just really beautiful is that if you just listen to other people talk about memories of their own fun experiences, it's energizing and joyful as a listener. Patron TJ McKenna also wanted to know if fun was contagious. So there you go.

And after this interview, I was so pumped, I tore through Catherine's book. And she has great anecdotal examples of people surveyed. They're called her fun squad about some of their most prominent memories. I'm going to read you a couple. She reads them in her audio book too, and they're great. So some examples of fun she collected include

The first thing that came to mind was squishing mud through my toes. Walking in mud is fun and gross. I'm not sure the most recent time I've done this, but I suspect my sense memory is from sometime in high school along a particular path and probably with my friend Margaret.

Another person said, "Playing fetch with an exuberant silly dog. This was last weekend. I'm 32." Another person's fun time included, "Dance class. I'm often overwhelmed by the fun I have on a Friday morning in a church hall with a bunch of older ladies. I've been doing this class since I was 41 and I'm 46 now. I'm usually the youngest in the room.

We do things like dance our imaginary tails, like swishy peacock feathers or a fluffy bunny tail. We tickle clouds, squawk like birds, claw the air, or move as though our feet are in marshmallow. Yeah, it's fun. One person told Catherine that they traveled to remote northern Siberia when it was still the USSR when they were 20, two formerly closed towns that had never seen Westerners.

And it was a one month environmental volunteer exchange. And one weekend they visited a children's camp, spending a day singing and playing and splashing in a small lake. And they write, "I couldn't speak their language. And aside from translators, they couldn't speak mine. The most unadulterated joy of my life occurred that summer day. The deep essential to survival creativity of a hundred children inviting us into their world was such pure wholeheartedness, silliness, song and wonder.

The experience is imprinted now on my DNA. So it was, for lack of a better word, fun. So asking family or friends or strangers this question, or even in internet form, can be really inspiring to figure out when your brain and body were in sync and you were having an actual good time, which I promise you,

Unfortunately, it's not going to be scrolling for products to buy on your phone screen as much as our phone screen wants that so bad. Just go back and forth like reminiscing about past fun and notice how just that reminiscence feels both your own reminiscing and just

Feeling that, I don't know, it sounds so cheesy to say the other person's energy, but truly, the way their face lights up and how you feel listening to and witnessing them get so happy and excited telling you the story. So long answer short, yes, it's contagious. I do feel...

Like just hearing about other people's fun experiences is inspiring. Like the same way it would be like if you saw someone eating a corn dog and you'd be like, I kind of do want a corn dog, you know? Yeah, give me that corn dog. But you know, it's being in person with someone or even over a Zoom call. But like-

sharing directly with each other in just a celebratory way, these past fun experiences. Yeah. And corn dogs. And corn dogs. Spectacular. Give me 14 of them right now. P.S. I'd like you to know that corn dogs are thought to have been invented around 1910 when a cornbread mold manufacturer put out a pan that was designed to look like a cylinder of cornbread in the shape of an ear of corn and

accommodate a hot dog in the middle. And this innovation was called the Krusty Korn Dog Baker. And I can hear your thoughts, and I know you want to purchase an antique model for $1,900 on Etsy, and you can. Also, Krusty and Korn, both spelled with Ks. Also, if you're wondering why the Bakersfield, California, new metal band Korn also spells their name with a K, it's because a member of the band vetoed the name Korn specifically

Spelled with a C. Also, did you know that the R in corn is backwards? Because a few members of corn had at one time worked at Toys R Us, which has a backwards R. Yeah, I concede that Flo swept me away like a white water current. But corn dogs, they're no laughing matter. Speaking of laughter,

Many patrons asked about laughing and giggling and its role in fun, including Elizabeth Mina, Bob B., Lane Steele, Jacqueline Church, Jenna Congdon, Jen A., and Stephanie Rosso, first-time question asker, who wrote in, How do we quantify fun? Is it comparable to humor, like a chuckle, versus a belly laugh? What about laughter? How much is laughter a part of fun? Or are they kind of two different things? Is humor...

classified kind of as fun because it typically involves an exchange and because typically you are being playful? Oh, I love these questions. I think that humor and laughter aren't necessarily the same thing. There's so many reasons people laugh. There is a lot of research on laughter. We're talking about the positive forms of laughter here, not just like the awkward laughter or the mocking laughter, not fun. So I don't think it necessarily needs to be humorous. And I say that in part because I don't want people to feel pressured

thinking that you got to be funny to have fun or to create fun. That was something I came across in my research is when I asked people to describe people from their lives who were fun and then said, why were their friends fun? It wasn't always like they're telling jokes and they're the life of the party. It was more things like they laugh at other people's jokes or they're up for anything or they make everybody feel comfortable in their presence. So I think that's kind of a

important thing to keep in mind. But I do think that if you find yourself laughing with another person, it's highly likely you're having fun together. That's so sweet. Yeah, it's really wonderful because I kind of think it's like, I don't know, laughter is kind of like fun bubbling out. Mm-hmm.

That's so sweet. It's interesting too to think that the pressure of having to entertain someone as opposed to the pressure of just being present and relaxed and letting people feel like they can be themselves too. Yeah, I think it's important for introverts in particular to hear because people tend to think you have to be an extrovert to be a quote fun person, but it's not at all the case. It's like if you're just someone who

who makes other people feel comfortable and you go with the flow and you're, you know, yes. Anding to use improvisational comedy terminology, like that creates a fun atmosphere. And,

And for those who have never taken an improv comedy class or dated anyone in Los Angeles, the first rule of improv is yes-anding, which means when your scene partner proposes something, you agree that that's where you are and what you're doing, and then you add to it. So let's say you're in an improv class or show and you're on a bare stage and the scene starts with the other actor saying, I can't believe it. We're finally astronauts on a spaceship. You don't say, what do

What do you mean? We're not in a spaceship. We're in the valley. You say, yes, we are on a spaceship. And can we find a place to stop for a snack and pee? Or yes, we are on a spaceship. And what time do you think we're going to land to kill all the earthlings? Yes. And I have heard comedians reference yes and in their wedding vows. So yes and. Just go with it. Keep building something together.

what's not fun is when you shut people down and you're a wet blanket when you're like, I don't want to do that. Or like, you're like, that was a stupid comment, like that kind of stuff, or just kind of judging other people or criticizing them. That's when you're not a fun person. Ah, but you know, you can be an extrovert and be a jerk. So yeah. But,

But haters need not apply necessarily. Haters need not apply. So many people had a great question about fears and thrills. Looking at you, patrons Rika Putten and Arwen, Don Ewald, Lauren Cooper, Earl of Gramelkin, Tessa Gleason, Ariel Belk, Estee Lennox, Jamie Alexander, and first-time question askers Anna Dillon, Sky Folio, and Andy Pepper. And Mag Zeroni, first-time question asker, wants to know, why do some people find roller coasters fun and others like horror movies...

Gail Starr also, like, why do people find scary activities like skydiving scary?

fun and others dread them. What's going on with thrill-seeking and bungee jumping and stuff like that? I'm so glad they asked this question. This goes back to the thing I was saying about fun factors. What are characteristics of experiences or interactions that make something feel fun to one person but not to another? Think playing music versus camping. And I would say that risk and thrill are definitely dividing lines for people.

To first clarify, risk and thrill to my mind are different because like, okay, skydiving or race car driving, that's actually risky. You might actually get hurt, right? That's different from a thrill of a slide at the water park where like it's safe, hopefully. So I would say risk is always thrilling, but thrill does not always necessarily require risk.

But regardless, some people love risk and thrill and some people don't. I personally hate horror movies. That is like a nightmare for me. It would create nightmares. So I think that that kind of comes down to some people really enjoy the feeling of an adrenaline rush.

And some people don't. And I think this actually brings up a very important point. And it goes back to one of your earlier questions. Everyone reaches fun or experiences fun differently. And we should not feel pressured to accept someone else's version of fun.

So to address Nicole Wackerly's question, who asked, why are adrenaline-fueled activities like riding roller coasters or skydiving fun for some, me, and nightmarish for others, my significant other, Nicole writes, or patron Zoe Litton wrote in about their brother and their mom who love these things and they don't. What can one do? Like...

If you are really good friends with someone or married to someone who loves roller coasters and you hate them, that's fine. That's not your fun factor. That's not a fun magnet. It's fine. Maybe don't go to the amusement park with them because you'll ruin it for them. But let them go. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And some people wanted to know in terms of, you know, you mentioned risk. Some people wanted to know...

Like Sheepin, first time question asker, where is the line that separates I'm doing this activity because it's fun and I'm doing this activity because I have an addiction? As someone with addictive tendencies, it can feel blurry sometimes. And Jason Lowenthal wanted to know, also curious about the instant gratification thing as I've seen others ask here, but also how that ties with alcohol or alcoholism or drugs and addiction.

Patron Samantha wanted to know where addiction to phones comes in. Rye of the Tiger asked about things like video games and gambling, certain substances all seem to start with that initial fun feeling and then they become habitual. And Ivan Gonzalez in Arizona asked, What is the effect of alcohol in having fun? Because when I go out and get drunk, I have a lot of fun, at least until I wake up the following morning. Do addictions...

Do they substitute? Do they augment fun? Do they take away from it? What's going on there? Well, I think we're talking about two separate things, right? Like substances that might help us let go. And then how do you tell when you cross the line from enjoyment, something you want to continue pursuing to an addiction? A lot of people ask me about the role of alcohol and fun. And I would say that it is true. Many for adults, many fun memories involve alcohol, right? Like

the wedding dance party or, you know, I think that that is because alcohol loosens us up and it reduces inhibitions and makes us more playful, makes us feel more comfortable with that letting go.

And ideally, I think we would try to reach a state where we were able to do that without the help of alcohol. But I think that is why it's so often involved. And so if you're able to mindfully, you know, be aware of that and be like, all right, well, I'm going out for dinner with my friends. And I know that if I have a glass of wine, it's going to be more fun. And I'm okay with that. That's fine.

I think fine. Of course, the question then is whether you have an addictive personality or is this going to cause a problem? Are you going to be able to stop at one glass or are you going to have six cocktails at the holiday office party and then do something you really regret, you know, like you don't. So that's tricky, but I do understand that. That's why I think that alcohol and substances are so often involved in people's memories that stand out to them as fun is because there's this lack of inhibition that comes with it that we should aspire to be able to achieve without the substance in terms of the addiction aspect. Um,

I think that, well, to define addiction, I would define it as when you continue to engage in a behavior that has negative consequences. Like despite the negative consequences, you feel compelled to continue the behavior. That's kind of the simplest definition of addiction that I've found. If you think about fun as being playful, connected flow, I think it's very healthy. Like those goals are healthy. The question is whether you might start to get

too oriented towards, as you were saying, the quick pleasure and the quick hit, probably involving dopamine because that's involved in our addictions, but

of a particular activity, and it starts to impede on the rest of your life. So I think that's the litmus test for any addiction is something you're doing having negative consequences on the rest of your life, but you don't feel like you can stop because then that's a problem. And for more on dopamine seeking risks or relationships with substances, we have a three part ADHD episode. And we also have an addictionology episode. Those are linked in the show notes.

just in case this is something that you're looking at with a more critical eye. I know for me, what has loosened me up in uncomfortable social settings can also be tough to do in moderation, which only leads to a lot of not fun the next day and this reinforcement of a feeling that I'm not okay as I am, which sucks.

But I would argue that when it reaches that point, it's not fun anymore. Like if you really stick to the definition of fun as playful, connected flow and without negative consequences, like then it's not fun. Then it crosses the line. Good to keep your eye on though, especially if you are someone with an addictive personality.

Well, it's interesting, too, because thinking about the notion of junk fun versus true, authentic fun, I think we probably might find compulsions around fun that's not actually fun, but we think it's relaxing.

That's a very good point because that's very true. That's probably fake fun. If you're like, you can't stop doing something, it's probably because you're getting these quick hits of dopamine, which is a very common sign of the fake fun. The things people tend to say with like true fun, again, it's like a shared experience. So if you're really addicted to having, you feel addicted, quote unquote, to having really great conversations with your best friend, I don't know that that's a negative thing.

thing, you know, and that's another kind of litmus test you can do for yourself is ask yourself, how are you feeling after these experiences? Are you feeling like gross afterwards? Because then it's probably wasn't true fun. True fun, in my experience, and the experiences people have shared, is this very nourishing, very joyful state that gives you a hangover that feels good. It's almost just like a joy hangover. And it's something that feels really good to look back on. And that's just very different. So I think that you're totally right. Like,

That's another example of how we cause problems when we use the word fun itself too broadly to refer to too many different things. And, you know, when it comes to loosening our inhibitions with a substance, I know, especially if we're dealing with depression or isolation or anxiety, using something to switch our brains off in that regard or take our amygdalas down a notch if we can. We didn't have to do that as kids. Right.

And so many people asked about fun changing as we age.

Patrons and kids or aspiring kids at heart include Chris Curious, Lauren Galerio, Samantha DeHollander, Caro Young, Diana DiPietro, Apollonia Pina, Reniel Mondre, Jennifer Simon, Mariko, Mary Ellen Chaney, Heather Dykes, McAllen, Sarah King, Tyler Bates, and first-time question askers Judy Ritchie, Olivia JM, JoJo Emerson, Essie Rue, Tilly's mom Rebecca Jackson, and Grace Davis, all of whom essentially wanted to know in Dirt Witch's words, why do so many adults stop having fun in the way that kids do? I assume it's cultural, they write, but is it? How do you know?

have you noticed any difference of how kids are able to turn off their inhibitions more quickly versus adults? Or does fun change when we get older? Are people in their 70s having the most fun? Where's your peak? I don't think there's a general peak to fun. Although I will say, I think it's not that kids are good at turning off their inhibitions. They just don't have them yet. Their inner critics have not yet found their voices, right? Like that's

So I think that that's very true. But I think the rest of us is really just more about whether or not we are able to silence that inner critic. Like, can we be kind to ourselves? I mean, it gets deep pretty fast because if you are constantly criticizing yourself, then

then you won't be able to let go. There's an element of vulnerability in fun that I think is really fascinating because to be playful, you have to be a little bit vulnerable because you're letting down your guard. But I also think really important tying together a couple of things we're talking about

Is that when we talk about like substances or the role that these things play in fun, I think that actually speaks to another misconception we have, which is we tend to focus on that type of memory as being quote unquote fun, like the crazy wedding party or whatever. And not recognize that fun happens in quieter ways all the time. You're probably having moments of playful connected flow sprinkled throughout your day.

Which means you're having fun in little doses throughout your day. And those moments count. Like it's just a different type of fun, if that makes any sense. And I think that's so important because people tend to think, oh, wait, no, no, no. I don't want to go and get drunk and like go to this party. But if you're able to like sprinkle on a little bit of playfulness to your workday and have like a connection with a colleague, that's

you know, or chat with a stranger for a couple of minutes and you both share a laugh like that counts. It's not going to be necessarily something you remember when you're 85 years old, but the accumulation counts. And I think it's essential that we pay attention to those small moments and

because then they matter to us. Like if you ask me right now, hey, Catherine, can you reflect on like some stressful moments from your past week? I'm quite sure I could give you 10 things that caused me anxiety or stress in the past week. But can I do that as easily if you're like, can you tell me like 10 moments where you had a little bit of fun? I mean, I can probably do it better than most people at this point. But most of us, it'd be hard because we're not paying attention to it. It's not on our radars. So I just say that because I don't want people to, this is a misperception we have that it's like the drunken party is fun. And that's not the case.

Very quick aside, one high point of fun this week for me was being at a rest stop, charging our electric car and noticing a small white pill on the ground, flipping it over with a leaf and then googling white pill round R20 and realizing it was the generic form of Viagra and then finding another one. Like confetti scattered over this 20 foot radius, 50 of them.

I needed to know the mystery. How did they arrive in this parking lot in Chowchilla, California? What were they doing there? They were everywhere. Just a side note, never pick up drugs from the road barehanded. Never do it. It was a rookie mistake, but I knew what they were. I washed my hands right after. Don't ever do it. Don't ever do it. But yes, that little whimsical mystery on a long road trip was some welcome free fun. I'll tell you more about it later. But we did not keep the pills. We have limits.

Little things can be fun and quieter interactions. Laughter is a much better indicator than this kind of like alcohol-fueled fun. Yeah, it's funny. It makes sense. Like my friend Simone loves to do puzzles together. And I'm like, yeah, that is fun because we're like in a flow state. We're doing something together. We're talking while we're doing it and we're solving problems. And it's funny how those...

things that you wouldn't think would be like a blast, like doing a puzzle with a good friend can be more fun than a big party or a bender or something, you know? Exactly. And it's also interesting if you think about like, is the puzzle itself the fun? I would argue, no, it's the structure that's giving you guys something to do with a goal and with your hands and like keeping your brains kind of occupied, but you're able to then banter with each other and joke around or have a conversation or whatever else.

You know, so again, it's not necessarily the activity. Like I personally am not drawn to puzzles, but a couple of weeks ago I was on a trip with my mom and I know she likes to puzzle. And I was like, I want to do that with her. And it was actually really fun. And it's not because we were trying to piece together, you know, a scene of cottages with like little girls in bonnets. That's fine. But the fun part was getting to actually interact with my mom and have a shared experience. It's always, there's always a cottage. There's always a cottage. There's always a cottage. And clouds. And the clouds. Yeah.

So satisfying. Oh, my God. Well, a bunch of people had questions about animals. Some of you wanted to know about animals, including Shelby Reardon, Lindsay Bartholomew, Rebecca Fitchett, Ashley Adair, Leah Lasarte, Ewan Munro, Chicken Chomper Farron, Genevieve Jellybean, Roland Richard, Claire Mowers, Poodle, Prince, Ehsan Debra Gray, Emily Krieger, Gregorius of Tomsk, Deanna Sterreznik-Dean, Quincy J. Byrne, KJ, Rick D. Mouse-Paxson, Aaron, and first-time question askers Ruben, Kimberly Halloran, and Shannon Bartels.

And like Caitlin Bishop, first time quester, Oscar, wanted to know, how is fun expressed in non-humans? Is it something that has been studied well? Like what can we learn from them? Are animals having fun or are they playing or is it anthropomorphizing to say that cows hopping around in a field is fun? Sounds fun. Yeah.

I think that we can't, we can't, you know, if fun is a feeling, then we're never going to know if animals are really experiencing fun in the way that we are. But there's been more research done on play and that animals play. I found some very funny research article titles. It was like fish that jump,

juggle and tease, I think was one of them. For more on fish having a better life than you, please see the 2014 study, Highly Repetitive Object Play in a Cichlid Fish from the animal behavior journal, Ethology, which begins, whether play occurs in fishes has long been a contentious issue. And because the researchers were here for that drama, they state that behavior patterns labeled as play are enigmatic phenomena that

typically have been restricted to mammals and perhaps birds, and that claims for play in non-endothermic vertebrates and invertebrates have been largely dismissed as anecdotal, anthropomorphic, or immature instincts. However, they recorded hundreds of occurrences of an unusual behavior in three male white spotted cichlid fish, which are these small black and navy blue and white flecked cuties that

They're native to a deep lake in eastern Africa, but they're commonly kept in freshwater aquaria. But the paper cites these key criteria for classifying animal behavior as play. The behavior must be not functional. It's got to be voluntary, spontaneous, or rewarding. It has to be repeated, but not rigidly, and has to be initiated in the absence of severe chronic stress, like disease, crowding, hunger, and predation, which is

I don't know how the fish feel, but personally, that's tough. It's been a rough couple of years, folks. But apparently, a researcher sat and watched these fish for two hours a day while recording them. And the fish would strike this bottom weighted thermometer repeatedly, which was like a punching bag. So they'd strike it, it'd come back, and then they'd dodge it.

And the study reports that the target behavior of attacking and deflecting an object that rapidly returned to its upright position not only fit the criteria for play behavior, but it differed among the different fishes. Huh. It's like, oh, that's fascinating. But you can see that in the dog park, right? Like, first of all,

There's a thing called a play bow. Like dogs do a play bow when they put their butts up in the air and wag their tails. That's their indication that they're non-threatening and they're ready to play, which I think is interesting. Like what's our equivalent of a play bow? I don't think we should stick our butts up in the air and wiggle up, you know, wiggle, but like, what is the human equivalent? And I would say it's a friendly smile, not looking down at your phone, like making a comment that kind of,

I don't know, makes it clear that you're willing to be playful, like in your conversation. But for dogs, like that's clearly what they're doing. And you can see there's no question that dogs are playing together. I mean, we can ask what's the point of play. And that's a whole area of academic debate. I personally, if I were just to hypothesize, I think part of the reason that animals play is the same that we do, which is it feels good. But

But yeah, there is a fair amount of research on animals in play, but not fun. It is funny too, because a lot of my memories of fun are playing around with my dog or being in the park, watching her have fun and chasing her around. It is funny in that case, that shared experience of trying to play fetch with a dog that does not comprehend it or watching her chase squirrels. That is contagious, I think is interesting. Yes. I think it's really interesting too, in terms of what

the human animal connection is because a lot of people mentioned dogs to me. I'd be curious about listeners feedback did not get as many, if any stories about cats, which stereotypically makes sense. But I mean, I have a dog myself who also does not understand catch, um,

But I would say like, I get that. I think there's some element of the dogs are making eye contact with us. They've been bred to socialize with humans. Like clearly they have a body signal, the play bow that indicates what their state of mind is in that regard. And also when you're around a dog, you're not really that self-conscious, right? So that actually is a way for many people to let down their guard. You don't feel judged by your pet. And so I think there's real legitimacy to the idea that a lot of people report having real fun experiences with their dogs or in some cases, I guess, other animals. I'm sure there's,

like a few cat folks out there that are like, well, no, that's probably true. Yeah. Like with the laser. I mean, yeah, for sure. I think that's true. It's interesting to reflect. Yeah. It's interesting to be like, oh, does that feel fun to you? If it does feel, that's the other great thing. If it feels fun to you, then it was fun because you're the person experiencing it. But then you can say like, why was that fun? Why did I have fun with my cat just now? Like, what was it about that interaction? And maybe could you apply that to some human interactions? I don't know. Yeah.

Cat folks, I may be allergic, but I see you and I love you. And Dr. Michael Delgado is a felinologist, and of course, we have an episode with her that you will love. Your cat children are going to love it even more. Speaking of children, patrons Hope, Lizzie Martinez, Lauren Taraka, Oliver Callis, and Liz had similar questions. You've got a nine-year-old. What about childhood development? Like Katrina Renee asked...

Any recommendations on how to tap into your fun, playful side if you're a person who maybe didn't get to experience much of it as a kid? If you don't associate your childhood with a lot of play or fun, how do you know when you're having it? I think that's a common challenge I hear from a lot of people is that a lot of people have very difficult childhoods where they weren't allowed to let go and they were

you know, experiencing trauma or they were put into positions of responsibility that were not appropriate for their age. I mean, both of my parents come from situations like that. I've heard from both of them that one of the things they enjoyed about parenting themselves is they felt like they could re-experience their childhoods through me. I'm an only child. So I do think there's something to that is that if you are one of those people who had a really challenging childhood and you do have a child of your own, is there a way to

follow their lead because children often are naturally playful and they are in flow a lot of the time and they want to connect with us. So is there a way to kind of meet them on their grounds and kind of let them take the lead? And then also I found one thing that is helpful for people, and this is true,

if you've got a kid, but you can do it just for other people in your life is if it's hard for you to figure out what would feel fun or nourishing for you, what can you do for other people in your life to give them that experience to do something together that you think would be kind of a gift to them? Because that for some reason is easier for a lot of people to brainstorm, but still results in this feeling of a special shared experience that often leads to fun. Oh, that's really sweet. Yeah. To, you know, like how can you create delight for somebody? Like how can you just surprise them with something? And,

And take it from there and don't put pressure on yourself. You know, like I think a lot of us are out of practice with fun if we ever were in practice with it. And we're just trying to like train ourselves to focus a bit more on positive stuff because our brains are naturally going to focus on the negative stuff.

give ourselves permission to enjoy our lives. Like you, you're not an irresponsible person if you prioritize fun. And if you really feel yourself like pushing back against that, then maybe you're someone who can start to, you know, focus on creating fun for other people. But just the idea that the world has tough problems to solve is not incompatible with the idea that we should prioritize playful connected flow. And I would argue that

that when we have fun with other people, it actually erases our differences, many of the differences that caused the conflicts in the first place. If you're truly having fun with someone, you're not going to see them as a political party or a nationality or a religion. And if you can erase those differences even for a moment, it's going to make it easier to find common ground to work together. So I actually think it's a very powerful force for good. It's funny that we think that the more we hunker down

and deprive ourselves of good things, the more that helps the world, but it doesn't. Who is doom scrolling helping? I have to ask myself that question. I'm like, you're just reading the same news article again. No, this is not helping solve anything. Social media, if you're ranting on social media or reading other people's rants, not solving any problems. If you go out and have fun with somebody else, you are making a bigger difference in the world

Even if it's someone you already know, you've created a little bit of joy and you've experienced a bit of joy and like that can grow. For me, it was an interesting kind of like tweaking of my own thoughts to be like, who am I actually helping to stay on my couch? Please note, that's not to say that you shouldn't spend your efforts online spreading the word on atrocities, mobilizing folks to vote or attend protests or organize mutual aid or become educated on the many terrible things that are affecting our planet or

and our species and other species. For more on this also, you can please see the recent genocidology episode, which is neither fun nor happy, but it's very important. On the topic of fun versus happy, many of you, including Nicole S., Connie Connie Bobani, Wells Howe, Kara Young, and Bob Barberson wanted to know, oh, in this voice note from a patron. Hi, Allie. I'm Roman Reckler from Brooklyn. There is fun and there's joy and there is happiness.

And although in quick glance they seem to flow into one another, it's possible to have them in any combination or lack thereof. What's actually different in the brain between the three? Or are there different chemicals involved? A few different people wanted to know, do you have to be happy to have fun or vice versa? And what's the difference between fun and happiness? Well, this is something I was thinking about a lot, actually, because we obviously all want to be happy. A couple of things.

One thing I like about fun is to me, it feels more concrete than happiness. By which I mean, like if I asked you, did you have fun last weekend? You probably could answer that more easily than if I said, are you a happy person? Right. Happiness is much more philosophical. There's something more concrete about fun. And then I would also say, I noticed in myself and then in all the stories people shared with me that fun is a happy state.

no one was like, I had so much fun doing blah, and I was miserable. It's not the case, even if they might have had a very challenging life, or they might have been depressed in general, or you know, suffering in some way in that particular moment, they were happy. And so that has made me personally think that to be happier, one way to achieve that is to focus less on happiness per se, and more on having moments of everyday fun. But if you're like, okay,

I'm going to take that a step further. I'm going to figure out more ways to incorporate little moments of playfulness or connection or flow into my day. And if you do that over time, I truly believe you will end up happier without directly aiming at that happiness goal. Because I think it's too much pressure. And I'd also say...

A point that a friend of mine who's a psychiatrist made is that, you know, a lot of people are like, well, if you're really depressed, you're not going to have the energy to even try this. You're not going to be able to get off your couch, which may be true. The flip side is that it's also possible that you're depressed and anxious because you're not having enough fun or not doing enough of the things that you enjoy that bring you joy. Like there's obviously situations in which depression or anxiety or some other challenge like requires therapeutic intervention and possibly medication, et cetera. But it's also interesting to reflect that we might think that we

can't have fun or we can't do things that bring us joy because we're depressed and anxious. But it might also be true that we're depressed and anxious specifically because we're not prioritizing and not putting energy into pursuing the things that are fun to us or bring us joy. So worth considering. I thought that was an interesting point raised by a psychiatrist.

And for more on happiness in general, you can see the eudaimonology episodes with Dr. Lori Santos, who teaches courses on happiness at Yale. And that episode covers everything from mindfulness meditation to a happiness questionnaire you can take to a paper on do-it-yourself fecal transplants. Enjoy. Average Pi wanted to know, why are empty boxes more fun to play with than toys?

That's a great question. I was encountering that question this morning with my daughter because we were sitting on the step outside and there's this big box from a toaster oven. She's like, why can't I have that box? And we actually have an empty box collection in our basement. And for her birthday one year, she actually asked, this is so funny, she asked her friends for boxes for her birthday. And can you imagine the delight of parents when they brought us all their empty Amazon boxes and our despair? Yeah.

It's because there's creative opportunities. It's not a prescribed outcome. I think that's why. It invites creativity and imagination in a way that I, as an adult, have lost, but my daughter maintains.

That reminds me, one of my most fun memories I have as a kid is building a giant robot out of boxes in the garage with my sisters. I think it's an important point, though, for parents, because we think, like, if we're going to help our kids have fun, we need to give them super structured activities or, like, toys. But kids can do so much with empty boxes and with free play, and that's actually so important for development. I mean, it's so important, and it's enjoyable. But, like, give them the boxes and let them just make stuff. On this note, Casey Diggle and...

Gemma wanted to know, Gemma's word, how has capitalism affected how we have fun and what we consider fun? And have there ever been any fun promoting campaigns led by a government organization where they're like, let's advocate for more fun? Do you think that there's something cultural that has shifted? Oh man, this is a kind of a bigger answer, but like-

We've been trained to associate time with money. And so anything that we spend time on that doesn't result in money, we categorize as a waste of time. And so I think that that's one reason that fun can feel frivolous is that you don't make money necessarily when you're having fun. Although you could have fun at your job, but not necessarily. So it feels like it must be a waste. But I think the other misconception is we often think that you have to have a lot of money to have fun because you have to have the money to...

you know, go skiing or take the private yacht or I don't know, whatever else people have, like their stereotypical ideas of that. But that's not the case. Like, sure, I think money can help you have experiences that might lead to fun, but you don't need to be rich. You don't need to have a lot of

money to have fun. And you can see that around the world where you look at people who are quote unquote less privileged or whatever you want to call it, who actually seem like they're having a ton of fun. And then you look at these like super stressed out, very rich Americans who are essentially just like working harder and harder and harder. They can have more money presumably to spend on fun stuff, but they're not doing that because they're just working so hard to get money to, you know what I mean?

And again, surprising to absolutely no one is that global happiness rates drop when basic needs aren't met. And the study of happiness, it's not phonology, but it's related. And in fact, the UN has been tracking rates of happiness since 2012 to help them inform policy. And they collect self-reported rates that focus on these six main factors, social support,

average income, a healthy life expectancy, freedom to make life choices, generosity, and the absence of corruption. And for the first time in 12 years,

This year, their data showed among millennials, evaluation of one's own life drops with each year of age, while among boomers, life satisfaction increases with age. Well, that is not fun. The good news, I guess, is that millennials and younger scored higher in the generosity scale. And apparently, a lot of people do ask Google, what is the most enjoying country in the world?

And the answer is Finland. Finland is the most enjoying country in the world. The U.S. dropped to 25th. Now, the least happy country reportedly is Afghanistan and many countries in the global south.

So while fun is present in places and under conditions you may not expect and it's vital to living, it is a greater challenge when you're in survival mode of any kind. So if you are in a place where many of your physical survival needs are met, you do have a head start on figuring out what things give you more true fun.

and not passive or scrolling or fake and possibly consumerist fun. And Catherine elaborates. I think that, yes, there's two ways in which like capitalism could negatively contribute or the way we think about capitalism is like,

Yeah, the idea that if you're not getting paid for your time, it's a waste of time. And then also that you have to have a lot of money in order to have fun, which is going to make you feel like you need to work more. Ugh, that's such a gut punch. But fun is accessible to all as long as your basic needs are met and you're not in like a survival situation. And you have empty boxes. Can you just order boxes on Amazon shipped to you in a box? That's very meta. And last listener question, which I thought,

It was so beautiful and I love that this was asked and this is why I love patrons and listeners for sending these in. But people's resistance to fun. Tanya Magic Fingers asked, why do people feel threatened by other people having fun? Arwen asked, why is it that we look forward to something thinking it'll be fun but we back out the last minute? Alice Rubin wants to know, why does fun give me anxiety? Or Chelsea and her dog Phoebe wanted to know, what about the fear that creeps up during a good time like anxiety?

will I have this fun again? And I think this was interesting. Beverly asked, why do some people feel guilty when having fun, sadly, not asking for a friend? So when we have this resistance or anxiety around fun, where do you think that's coming from? Why don't we let ourselves seek it out more? Oh God, that's a really big question to end on. Sorry. Thanks. Well, I think,

Speaking to the person who is like, you're in the middle of a fun experience and then you find yourself being like, what if I never have this again? What if this ends? I had that just yesterday myself, actually. I was in a pool with my daughter and her friend and my husband and we were all joking around. It was a beautiful day. The water was the perfect temperature. It was this like, you know, snapshot of childhood. And me being me, instead of enjoying it, was like, oh, the nostalgia. She'll be a teenager someday, you know? And it's like, oh, thanks. Thanks, brain. Yeah.

I don't know exactly why that happens. I'm just really empathizing there that it can be very hard to kind of allow yourself to just enjoy the moment and have fun and not immediately think about it's going to end and you're never going to have fun again. I think maybe that's just an element of like mindfulness and kindness to be like, oh, brain, there you go again. Thanks for that depressing thought. I'm going to choose not to pay attention to it right now and instead just add this lovely experience to my repository of past fun experiences upon which to reflect later. So that's one thought.

Life is short. It's also long and it's lovely and heartbreaking and scary and it's exciting and it's beautiful. So we might as well stop and appreciate all of the ingredients that make up our mortal casseroles.

I think when you're feeling guilty about fun, very interesting. That's the way I'm saying it can get deep very quickly because I think it can be very difficult for many of us to give ourselves permission to enjoy our own lives, you know, in any capacity. And we were talking about that a bit, a little earlier. Yeah.

in terms of feeling like you have a responsibility to make yourself miserable by reading the news stories or doing whatever you're doing, because if you have fun, you're not allowed to do that. So Catherine cites the 2012 book, The Top Five Regrets of the Dying, which was written by a palliative care worker, Bronnie Ware. And two of those regrets were, I wish I'd had the courage to live a life true to myself, not the life others expected of me. And I wish I'd had the courage to express my feelings. Catherine continues.

And there were things like, you know, I wish I hadn't worked so hard or I wish I'd maintained my friendships. But one of the top ones was I wish I'd let myself be happy. I think that's really important for us to keep in mind that that it wasn't, you know, I, yeah, I wish I'd worked more. I wish I'd spent more time doom scrolling the news. That was not, that was not the book.

And then the anxiety element of why people feel anxious. Sometimes you're just being forced into situations that genuinely are not going to be fun for you. And there's a feeling of pressure. And that comes from a misconception that like what someone else finds fun, you should find fun. So I think we need to give ourselves some

you know, permission not to find that fun. It's fine. You don't need to push yourself into something. Sometimes there's just inertia though. And I think that's another thing to look into if it's like, oh, I'm just feeling myself being resistant to fun. What's that about? Is there a childhood issue? But is it also that like, it's harder to get off the couch than it is to just sit there and scroll. But like, maybe you should make a commitment to yourself to at least try to get off your couch next time and then see how that feels and then build upon that. And what pray tell of the haters?

If someone is really a wet blanket on your fun, that probably means there's something much deeper going on for them and probably not your job to solve. But maybe you don't want to spend as much time with them or maybe you want to carve out a way for you to do things that are fun for you that don't involve them because it's not going to be fun if there's a wet blanket around like that critic is going to.

Yeah.

having someone be able to point out why certain times were more fun or certain activities. And it's funny, like you think about like art therapy or music therapy and you're like, okay. And then you're like, oh no, that's why that works. Right. That's why equine therapy works. So that's why, you know, I was in a really...

terrible anxiety spiral for like a week and I was convinced to go surfing did not want to go no interest in that but promised someone I would end up getting me out of that anxiety spiral and

for months. And now I look back and I was like, oh yeah, I was talking to the surfing instructor. I was in a totally present flow state so you don't drown. Right, right, right. All of that. You can't be too self-conscious when you're goofing around in the waves. And it's just funny because it's like, why was surfing that time so fun? And being able to scientifically say like, oh, this was why. It's like, oh, I can start finding that

around me in other ways, you know? Yes. And I also think you hit on something that when people are like, well, what's a hack for fun? Try something new with another person. Yeah. I wouldn't say it's guaranteed, but it's like a good idea. Yeah. Try something new. Even if it doesn't necessarily sound appealing because you can still have fun even if it like, you're like, I don't really want to go surfing again. But that particular time that was fun. I'm glad we had a shared experience. We laughed like we were connected. I was out of my head, you know? So yeah, do something with someone else. Do something new with someone else.

And what about last questions I always ask? The worst part about your job, the worst part about writing this book, what was the hardest part about writing this or about trying to find fun in your life? Oh, God. Well, I think as I was saying, it was a challenging time to write about fun because it was literally right in the beginning of lockdown. But I think the other challenge is that I've realized that I really do enjoy, I'm not necessarily a full-on extrovert, but I do enjoy human interaction and I enjoy doing stuff.

out in the world with my body. And freelance writing is not really that. So I think that my challenge, both with my work with How to Break Over Your Phone and FUN, and I'm doing this Substack newsletter, How to Feel Alive, it's too much screen time. So it's tricky to

live the way I want to live, but then also realize so much of a writer's life is staring at a screen. So I've been trying to kind of shift away from that, which I guess is a really useful realization, though. You know, it's like, can I do more stuff like podcasting or just go have more experiences to then write about instead of just staring at a computer screen all day? It also makes sense why sometimes going to a coffee shop you've never been to to write and look at the people coming in with their dogs or overhearing a conversation, like why that makes things

a little bit more fun. I find that for myself, at least. Yeah, for sure. And I think also the hard part about writing is the isolation. And I think that was a useful takeaway from this book is like social connection is really important for everybody. And I actually really want more of it in my own personal life and my professional life. And that actually really has led to me try to find more collaborations and more ways to, you know, not just be sitting alone with my words. Yeah, same. What about the best thing about

being an author who got to do a deep dive in fun. I was going to say it's led to some like interestingly justifiable tax write-offs, but besides that, it was for fun. And look, I wrote a book about fun. No, I think it's that it's like, it is cool to be like the fun lady. You know, it's like, I get to think about this and I don't know. I remember being at a party once with a friend and I was like, I'm getting a lot more interesting opportunities as a result of this project. And

than I would have say I'd written a book about war. And then I looked at his face and I was like, oh God, the reason I thought about a book about war is that he wrote a book about war. I am so awkward. But anyway, I think that that is, it's opened my own mind. It's made me think about these things for myself. It's made me change the way I parent. It's made me change the way I live my own life. And like, that's, I think a really cool and wonderful result from a professional project. So yeah.

Yeah. And it's led to things like this. Like this is fun. Like this conversation with you is fun. This is a fun moment in my day and that's really cool. So I'm really grateful for it. Oh, I love this. Oh, thank you so much. This truly was fun. I really, really appreciate it. Yay. We had fun.

So yes, ask funny people fun questions. We are all here to learn. Now, if you're intrigued about breaking up with your phone or if you're intrigued about having more fun, there's a link to Catherine's website in the show notes. And her book on fun, again, is titled The Power of Fun, How to Feel Alive Again. There are also links to her social media on X and Instagram, as well as a link to her newsletter.

We have more links, including to the studies we mentioned and to our TED Talk, all up at allyward.com slash ologies slash funology. And we are at ologies on X and Instagram. I'm at allyward on both. If you ever need classroom-friendly versions of ologies, great news. Smologies is now its own show available on its own feed. Find that wherever you get podcasts. You'll notice the new sage green color and some colorful new illustrations. And if you're

And that is also linked in the show notes for you, as is ologiesmerch.com. And of course, so is a link to the Patreon page at patreon.com slash ologies, which you can join for just a dollar a month. Erin Talbert admins the Ologies podcast Facebook group. Aveline Malik makes the transcripts. Kelly R. Dwyer womens the website. Noelle Dilworth is our scheduling producer. Susan Hale is our all-powerful managing director. Jake Chafee and Mercedes Maitland are our

audio editors and stepping in this week as lead editor as the wonderful Mercedes was under the weather, we hope she feels better, is Jared Sleeper of Mindjam Media, who is also married to me and kind enough to stay at the office a little late finishing this. He's also the funnest person I've ever met, which is why I made our bond legally binding. Nick Thorburn wrote the theme music. And if you stick around until the end of the episode, I share with you a secret. And for that, I'm going to play you...

a little footage taken at that electric car charging spot because I did leave you on a cliffhanger and I feel like you need to know. Hey, did you guys drop 50 Viagra? Where did you find them at? Literally just all over here. Because there was a black Tesla here and an old man. It looked like he dropped something. So yeah, I did ask strangers who informed me that the older gentleman in a black Tesla may have dropped it. If that was you, if you dropped your generic Viagra and Chachula,

You definitely have my condolences. Thank you for making my night. How beautiful would it be if that person were listening? Life would just be sparkles and rainbows and dark matter cosmic connections. One can hope. One can hope. I blow you kisses. Okay, kiddos.

This is your dad speaking, urging you to please go have some fun. Get weird. Be yourself. Share a moment, even with a stranger or a llama. Lose yourself in the process. I shall go do the same. Bye-bye.

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