Columbidology (PIGEONS? YES) Part 2 with Rosemary Mosco
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Oh, hey, it's someone with your same name, but a very different online presence, Allie Ward. Here we are, part two, pigeons. You loved part one and so did I, but if you haven't started with that, it's linked so easily in the show notes and you're going to want the basics about pigeons, bad nests, good parenting, pigeon breeds, what they eat, your pigeon alter ego name, why they like cities, how to love them, and so much more. That's part one.

Okay, if you listen to that, let's get right into part two with this pigeon expert, creator of Bird and Moon comics, the author of the book, A Pocket Guide to Pigeon Watching, Getting to Know the World's Most Misunderstood Bird. But first, before we do that, thank you so much to every patron we've ever had for making this show a reality and for submitting enough questions.

to make this a thrilling two-parter, you can join at patreon.com slash ologies for as little as a buck a month. And the upper tiers can even submit audio questions we may play on the show. Also, thank you for getting your summer merch at ologiesmerch.com. We do have bathing suits if you need them. And for no money, you can support the show with a review because I'm sure to read it. Like this one that was just left by CCC716, whose review said, this podcast is the antacid for my existential dread.

Also, slime mold would be cool. Thank you so much for that, CCC716. And agreed, we do need more slime mold in our lives. We'll do an episode on that eventually. Thank you to everyone who's ever left reviews. And let's get right into part two of your questions about nose barnacles, true romance, unusual fluids, war heroes, escapee pigeons, de-extincting pigeons, Las Vegas pigeons, pink pigeons, and so much more with author...

science comic artist, highly lauded and adored science author, and second-generation pigeon advocate, columbidologist, Rosemary Mosko. We have one million questions from listeners, and we are not going to answer all of them, but we're just going to do our best. Is that cool? Yes. Oh, I'm so excited. I'm so excited. James Nance from Fort Collins, Colorado says, Hey, Allie, this is James Nance from Fort Collins, Colorado.

Why are there no professional sports teams named after pigeons? I feel like that's a missed opportunity considering how cool they are. And sub-question, who do I need to send a letter to to start a petition to make this happen? Thanks. James, yes, do it.

I've never heard of one. I'm heartbroken that this doesn't exist and I need this swag. So I'm on board. We need to do this. It's a true injustice. Change.org is about to hear...

Yes, absolutely.

Really, pigeons have much more magical coloration. Help me understand this. Okay, listen, not all of your dove questions were this magical, but many of you patrons wanted to know the distinction between pigeons and doves. All of us needed to know, including Mark McPhillips, Sarah Vissaro, Saira Mann, Sam Wye, Earl of Gramelekin, Lishat Gourmand, Sarah Metzger, Teresa and David, Elies Wiebel, Ashley Stroop, Dave Brewer, Nita Chen, Kate DeHaan,

So Dove versus a pigeon. Any idea how magic got involved?

Ooh, I don't know when magic appeared, but I will tell you that when people have a trained white bird, sometimes they have a species that we will call a dove and sometimes they just have a white pigeon and people can't really tell. I mean, wedding releases...

are often just a big old pile of pigeons that people are hucking into the sky. Yes, absolutely. White, fancy pigeons. If you go to Honolulu, all of the feral pigeons there, many, many, many of them are white. And it's because so many people get married there that people release quote unquote doves. And what they're releasing is these white pigeons. And then there are white pigeons everywhere. It's a tough call. Yeah.

They're so different. So pigeons and doves, so they are the same thing, but I'm kind of, that's a kind of sneaky thing to say because there are some species where we commonly call them doves and some where we commonly call them pigeons. And then there are some where we commonly argue back and forth about what to call them, like the rock dove or rock pigeon, the Columbolivia city pigeon. What's going on is that English speaking people have sort of two words for the same thing,

Probably because of the Norman conquest, the French came over and introduced the word pigeon, the word pigeon. And before we had this old English word dove.

So we had two words for the same thing. And then as English speaking people sort of traveled around the world and met these creatures, all of which are in the pigeon and dove family, Columbidae, they would sort of point at one and go, oh, that looks like a pigeon. Okay, that's a dove. And then they develop these common names, but there's no evolutionary connection between all the pigeons and all the doves. This is just a random assigning of names.

So it's not a scientific division between pigeons and doves. And that's why I think it's reasonable to say, you know, pigeons and doves are sort of the same type of thing. But at the same time, the creatures that we call pigeons or the creatures that we call doves are sort of still unique in terms of, you know, different species having their unique species.

But yeah, absolutely. I mean, when Noah, you know, hucked a bird out the side of the ark. Sounds like a homing pigeon to me. I'm just going to say, you know, he threw a pigeon out there and the pigeon went, hey, I'm going to go find some hot dog buns. The hunt is on. Bring it back. I mean, hot dog buns. Who doesn't love one? Ask a pigeon. Maybe it'll share. Who knows?

They're good at sharing. We should have bred them to share their hot dogs. Just like go nab me a hot dog bun from someone eating one. Bring it on back. I'll give you a medal. Yeah, give me a bite. Eating a hot dog bun with a pigeon. Lady in the Tramp style. A dream. You know, you mentioned the bump on the beak and Mad Madam Mim and the bloated toad wanted to know...

In the Bloated Toad's words, why do some pigeons have those bulbous face protuberances on top of their beaks, around their nose holes? What are they doing with them? They want to know. We don't know, which again is an exciting pigeon mystery. It's called a sear. It's sort of a lumpy, fleshy thing that pigeons have over their bills.

Males appear to have a slightly bigger one, although it's so hard to tell male from female pigeons that even pigeon keepers can't really do it without a DNA test. So unless you speak pigeon and...

really would like to know and the vibes seem okay to ask, there's really no good way to visually discern the sex of a pigeon or the gender for that matter. You could try squinting at their nose lump, which is called a sear, but even that beak hump stumps columbidologists. And Rosemary explains. We don't know what it's for. Because there's a bit of a sex difference, we think that there might be, you know, kind of like a look at me, I have a bigger...

fancier seer, I'm a handsome male thing going on. And babies don't have it.

So that's one way to tell the younger pigeons is that they haven't developed that fleshy protuberance, which makes their bill kind of look longer. But yeah, we don't know. So someone please become a serologist and tell us. And I want to know because it's one of the most characteristic, you know, things about pigeons. Well, on the topic of genders and sex, Daniela Napolitano and Cynthia Zhao and Chino wanted to know, how do they tell? You said...

with a DNA test, can you get in there, the cloaca, or no? Yeah, they don't have any external genitalia. Both males and females just have a hole called the cloaca that everything kind of flushes out of. And when they mate...

They press their holes together, kind of shoot material through the holes. That's hot. It's called a cloacal kiss, which I think is delightful. So yeah, they just have a hole. There's no real way to sex them. So we usually need a blood test or...

Or, you know, if you're keeping pigeons, they'll lay eggs and then you know it's a female. But sometimes females will sort of act in a more male role. It's just really hard to tell. They also split up their egg-sitting duties. So male and female pigeons will both sit on the nest, but females will sit on it overnight, for example. They'll kind of alternate duties. So that's when...

one way to tell, but this is a serious issue. So when I was looking into the war hero pigeon, Cher Ami, who was a hero from World War I, who wound up carrying a note basically saying, we soldiers are under friendly fire, please stop shooting at us. And Cher Ami wound up saving the day and saving all of these soldiers. When I was writing my book,

I wanted to know if Jeremy was male or female. And I came across this blog on the official U S government site, this random guy's blog where he said, Jeremy was a woman and we are ignoring the contributions of, or a female pigeon. We are ignoring the contributions of females to war. And I thought I have to find this out. So I reached out to the Smithsonian and they said, because of the pandemic,

we don't have the DNA test results back from Cherami's taxidermied body, which is the only way to tell. But we think Cherami is probably female. So you can go with that in your book. And so I proudly called Cherami female in my book in the first edition. And then the results came back and Cherami was a male. So we can't even tell if we're experts and we have the pigeon in front of us.

I'm sure pigeons have their own way. Maybe it's that bulbous thing in their nose. It's just like a beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. That's that boy. Lady alert.

Yeah. Who knows? A bunch of people. Cynthia Zhao, Daniela Napolitano, Olivia Lester, Ghoul Next Door, AZM, Sarah Rossero's friend James, Neen, Sage AG, Waylo, Katrina, Kate E., First Time Quest Jasker Jamie and Mary McGann, First Time Quest Jasker, Deborah Gray, who wrote, my friend Kaylee and I would like to know how much sex do they have?

And Sir Monkey Boy asked, are they getting a little freaky with the neighbors? And I'm assuming Sir Monkey Boy means the neighboring pigeons. So all those folks want to know about mating rituals and their courting and breeding behavior, like puffing up their chests. And AMC wanted to know, do the females enjoy this or do they mean it when they seem to be saying like, back off, you creeper? Oh, I wish we could get into their heads. I'm so curious. Yes.

They have really elaborate mating rituals and it is a delight to see. So if you have some time and you want to go look at your local pigeons, now is a good time because a lot of them are kind of getting back into the breeding spirit after the winter. Some of them breed all winter, but a lot of them don't. So I was just today watching some males doing their thing. It's incredibly elaborate. So it starts with males doing what's called the bow coup, where they will sort of

and puff up and bow and raise up and bow and raise up. And they'll do this coo. Let's see if I can do it. They do a coo that sounds like...

And they'll like bow and bow and bow. And the females will sort of look like, why are you doing this? But what's interesting is they mate for life. So you may be seeing a male bothering a female who he hasn't yet connected with. Or you may just see like a paired for life pair of pigeons where she's just acting kind of aloof. And so he'll do that for a while and then they'll groom each other.

And then they'll kiss, but really they're sort of like cramming their beaks down each other's throats and simulating vomiting in each other's mouths. But it looks like a kiss, so it's really cute. And then they'll mate...

And the male will pick a nesting site and he'll stand there and he'll make this really weird sound that sounds like, it's sort of like the coo, but there's no trill. And I've heard that. And it's really weirded me out because it sounds like a guy standing, you know, under my window going, but it's a pigeon. And he's saying, check out my, you know, this cool spot that I found. And then the female will go and, you know, start sitting there and sitting on the eggs.

But the reason they go through all of this ridiculous amount of bonding is because they are both responsible for raising the babies and they can't really do it on their own. And one of the reasons is that both male and female pigeons make milk. I beg your pardon? And so for the first several days, they're both feeding milk to their babies and the babies need that. And so it takes both the mom and the dad. So these bonding rituals do have a purpose, even though they're all so funny. Milk?

I know. Okay. Milk. Is that what they're doing when they're making out? Are they pretending like, pretend I'm giving you milk, pretend I'm giving you milk?

Yeah. Or regurgitating seeds from this region of my throat called the crop. You know, hey, honey, I have so much seeds and milk to offer you. But they're simulating vomiting. They're not actually being like, do you want to eat? It's hard to tell. But from what I was able to find, they're probably not actually puking a whole bunch into each other's mouths. But we'll see. I think the jury is out on that. Yeah.

And if they are, that's none of our business. Go for it. Go for it, kids. They do what they want. But milk. Talk to me about pigeon milk. So this question was on the minds and in the throats of patrons Megan Walker, Julia Smith, Kristen Fuller, Jenny Chambers, Mandy Hobson, Becky Wilkinson, Matthew Walker, and two patrons, Carissa Quisenberry and The Bloated Toad.

would like a review of its taste, but I think that's asking too much of any columpidologist. Yeah. So pigeons convergently evolved the ability to make milk. So we make milk, they make milk. There's some differences. All pigeons can make milk and they make it in this region of their esophagus called the crop. So they're kind of secreting it into their throat and then they're kind of like puking it into their baby's mouth.

It is a bit cheesier apparently than mammalian milk. I've never actually seen it because the whole thing happens in a very subtle puking mouth to mouth kind of way. You know how it is. But apparently it's a little bit chunkier. But the wild thing is that in both humans and pigeons, it's stimulated by this hormone called prolactin. So it's the same hormone. It also has fats and proteins and immune boosting things in it.

So it serves a really similar purpose, which I think is really fascinating. They've sort of stumbled upon one of the same solutions that we have to helping our babies get a lot of nourishment. They just do it by puking. Thanks, Mom. Thanks, Dad. So if they're co-parenting, which is a beautiful thing,

Any idea why they don't just co-parent for a season and then be like, well, this was nice and keep in touch and then find a new one? I mean, are their lives like one season long or do they live to be like

10 and they're always with the same partner. There just seem to be different strategies that birds will undergo. So some birds will be quote unquote, you know, monogamous for life, but they'll sort of, you know, like albatrosses, they'll sort of, they'll have a mate for life, but then maybe they'll go off and mate with a little friend off on the side or something. A lot of birds will only stick around with their partner for a season, but for whatever reason, the strategy seems to work out with pigeons where they will just stay together with

a tiny amount of cheating potentially, but mostly very little. They will just be like incredibly defensive of and loyal to their mates for their whole life. If their mate passes away, they will get a new one. But people who keep pigeons know that, you know, once pigeons are paired up,

good luck getting those two apart. They are, you know, totally devoted. If they are bonded for life, is that like for a year or 50? Either way, it's going to be longer than the average couple from Love Island. But how big of an emotional commitment is lifetime for

for a pigeon. They can live for, you know, 25 years potentially, some really long-lived ones. In the city, though, it's a lot less than that. I mean, they're being predated upon by peregrine falcons and they're eating cruddy food and, you know, their cars and all that stuff. So their romance might be a little shorter. But yeah, I was not expecting to find pigeon romance this cute. I had no idea. I figured because...

so many options in the city. People are always looking for something else, you know, that they would just be one and done. But that's very beautiful and hopefully inspiring to people who think that romance is dead in general. I think our love can do anything we want it to. But so many people want to know about their fancy appearance and especially if they meet for life. Mad Madam Mim is

Ton of others. Average pie. The joyful spitfire and the dork next door want to know, what's with the iridescence? And Mad Madam Mim says, it's almost like an oil slick. Why are they so rainbowy? And Tian Scott, first time quest asker, asked, is it just to be the most beautiful birds on the block or is it for mating or what? It seems to be a display thing. So the iridescence gets...

more intense as they get a little bit older. And then when they're showing off to their mates, they will inflate that crop, that kind of like throat region and they'll poof it out and they'll show, you know, look how fancy and shiny I am. It's really neat. So it's purple and green, but there is not a drop of purple or green pigment in there. It's entirely just the structure of the feathers and the way they look. And some of the feathers look

purple from an angle and green from the front. And some of them look purple straight on and green from an angle. It's just this beautiful, shiny, structural thing. For more on how colors can be structural and how feathers can be so shiny and beguiling, you can please see our excellent plumology episode all about feathers, which of course we shall link

in the show notes. And it seems to have to do with showing off and with that all-important purpose of getting a mate. But I think it's the most beautiful thing about a pigeon. It is. It's gorgeous. And you can look at the same pigeon, which looks different as it kind of coos along and struts about. And then suddenly you get a nice little like, whoo. Yeah. The sun hits. Almost holographic. Yep. And you're in love. And you're in love with a pigeon. Cat,

Backlars wants to know, if pigeons are feral, why does L.A. have mostly gray pigeons and New York has more brown, white, or mottled pigeons? Have you ever noticed that? Patron Chandler Witherington also needed to know this, asking, what's up with certain cities throughout a country having certain color schemes of pigeons? They say, I traveled to several cities around Spain a couple of years ago and noticed every city had its own unique pigeon.

pigeon colors that were more common. Chandler, personally, you get my kudos for even noticing because friends, if you're traveling, you got to milk it for every memory you can. You got to crop milk it.

Yeah, that is a great question. This is one of the wildest things. This whole time we've been talking about city pigeons as if they're this monolith of pigeon. But each sort of zone that has feral pigeons, those pigeons are the descendants of whichever pigeons were initially brought there, plus whichever racing pigeons maybe stumbled over there while undergoing a long race.

Pigeons don't tend to travel all that far. So there was a great study that Elizabeth Carlin et al were involved in a few years ago that looked at New York pigeons and pigeons.

Boston pigeons and they don't really mix. There's a place in Connecticut where they're just like, no, we're not going to cross that dividing line. So patron Victoria Handout wrote in and asked, I heard that there are large families of pigeons that stay in their region, one near DC and one near Boston, New York. True? And why? And yes, I dug up the 2020 paper, Rosemary cited. It's titled, Widespread Genetic Connectivity of Feral Pigeons Across the

the Northeastern megacity. And if you're like, pray tell, what is a Northeastern megacity? The paper starts right off knowing that we're all thinking that same thing. And they explain that a megacity, it's the region covering six large cities. In this case, Boston, Providence, New York City, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Washington, D.C. Okay, is how the paper starts.

But yeah, the study says that the dividing line in northern and southern East Coast pigeons is likely due to reduced urbanization across coastal Connecticut. So pigeons are like, what do you want me to do here? You want me to go live in some woods where there are no Ziplocs of crushed Cheerios lying around? Get out of

Now, another 2021 study from the same lab titled Urbanization Predicts Flight Initiation Distance in Feral Pigeons Across New York City looked at 519 pigeons to determine how close you have to get to one before it scoots away from you and breaks your heart.

And in cities with more people and traffic, that distance was shorter. They're like, I'm out of here quicker. Now, this is also true for cities with more peregrine falcons like Chicago and New York. And for more on the rise and fall of the peregrine falcon and why it's such a cosmopolitan urban bird these days, you can see our field trip birds of prey and raptor facts at

So when you're looking at your local pigeons, what you're looking at is the results of mixing of particular bloodlines from that area.

So the pigeons that are feral in Cairo, in Egypt, those ones have been feral for, you know, maybe 5,000 years, 10,000 years, which is wild. And then you look at the ones in New York and it's, you know, a few hundred years. So local coloration has just a lot to do with which pigeons were dumped in that area. And I mentioned earlier, if you go to Honolulu, one of my favorite examples, if you Google Honolulu pigeons, you will get people feeding these flocks

that are full of white birds or birds with bits of white in them. And it's because those ones stem from wedding release birds. So I hope that answers your question, patron Tyler J. Poetti, who'd asked, why don't we release pigeons when we get married? Turns out we do. And Krista Jones, who wanted to know, why do we shun pigeons, but we invite doves to our weddings? Oh, pigeons are on the guest list. Many people just don't realize.

And for some behind the scenes, I was researching this episode while on a plane to Hawaii to see family and to record a few field trip episodes. And on the ride from the airport, I was looking down at my phone, checking messages, unlike Chandler Wetherington. And I realized just as I was leaving Honolulu that I should look for pigeons. And at that moment, I glanced at a telephone wire and there sat two pigeons, one gray and one as white as a wedding gown. Now, how much will that set you back?

So I let my fingers do the walking on my phone to a website called Bridal Dream Hawaii, which advertised the releasing of two birds for the low price of $199, which honestly, I

That's probably the most affordable line item on any wedding budget in this day and age. Am I right, folks? It also noted that, quote, Doves need at least two hours before sunset to fly home before dark. Sorry, dove releases are not available at sunset time. So you can have pigeons or you can have a sunset. The choice is yours. But a sunset won't poop on you.

and it's free. But I like the thought that there are two rented pigeons attending a wedding and communicating with their eyes, let's get the fuck out of here and fly home. Or even better, let's quit our jobs in the wedding industry and live behind the dumpster at the Circle K. So yeah, each population is unique and special, so you should treasure your local pigeons. There are also

seem to be urban-rural differences and sort of latitude differences in terms of which pigeon wing patterns do the best for reasons that we do not understand. So you'll see pigeons that have these dark checkered wings more in cities and in higher latitudes. Why? No idea. So they're also just sort of inherent factors going on. But yeah, your local pigeons are special and unique.

Well, you mentioned those higher latitudes, and I never thought about this, but how are they surviving the winters? Listen, we all wanted to know this. And by all of us, I mean Caffeine, who asked how doves stay warm, and Stephanie Coombs, who wanted to know if their habitat is restricted by temperature. Like, are they snowbirds like your grandparents who spend the winter in Arizona or in Boca Raton?

It's really incredible. So you won't find them, you know, on the North Pole, but they have some really good ways to stay warm. And one of them is they hang around our buildings, which have all sorts of toasty nooks and crannies. But they're also able to poof up their feathers and trap warm air. So they're kind of wearing a feather jacket at all times. And they're able to tuck in their little feets and keep their little feets warm. And they have different strategies. And usually so long as they get enough food.

They're able to do pretty okay, which isn't to say you should throw a pigeon out into the frozen wilds, but the ones near cities seem to manage. And they can be found all the way up into Alaska, which is pretty amazing. Into Alaska. You know, Sienna asked on the topic of city coloration that they've been noticing way more, is it leucistic or leucistic? Do you know? Oh, yeah. I think it's leucistic, but that's not-

totally the right term. So what you're talking about are pigeons with lots of white in them or kind of white splotches, which is a really good observation. What's going on with pigeons that have either an all white body or bodies with white splotches is a set of really complicated genetics that we have not fully decoded. So for example, there's

This one pigeon coloration called recessive white, where they'll have a dark eye and a fully white body and that can happen. But then there are all these pigeons with just blobs of white on them. And there seem to be different genes for each different spot where they can have different blobs. And those are the descendants of birds that would have had, you know, white blobs or fancy white blobs.

colorations. And those are some of my favorite ones to see. But again, that's just sort of like pigeons being mutts and having these colorations that are holdovers from fancy breeds. Well, Sienna apparently is in Portland, Oregon. So if you're looking for

white blobby pigeons. Who isn't? They got a lot of them up there, but this I thought was a very unique question. Feather Evans said, I was visiting a city and among the little flocks of pigeons on the sidewalk was this bright pink, and I mean all caps, bright pink flamingo looking pigeon. And my friend and I were stunned and confused, but we love him and we still think about him to this day. Why was this pigeon boy posing as a flamingo?

Oh, I have bad news for you. Oh, no. Well, somebody had a girl.

And that's why that pigeon is pink. So pigeons are not naturally pink, but people will dye them for gender reveals or for other purposes. No. There was an orange pigeon in Toronto and there was a pink pigeon in New York City. And those were both dyed. And sometimes that paint can injure the pigeons. So if you see a pigeon that is colored, what's going on there is someone bought a domestic white pigeon.

put paint on them, released it. And now this poor pigeon is like, well, now I'm pink and now I'm lost. And where's my home? So you should try to rescue that pigeon and bring it home. But yeah, please, please don't do gender reveals with live animals. It's not a good idea. I never would have guessed that. So if you see like a powder blue pigeon...

It's a boy. It's a boy. But that pigeon might not be a boy, but someone's having a boy. I know. Yeah, I just I don't think these heteronormative ideas are good to foist upon pigeons. I don't think so either. No. I accidentally Googled how much it costs to ask a pigeon to announce your child's crotch.

And somehow I landed on a TikTok of an all-American family consisting of a mom, a dad, and their four sons standing near a rural lake for the gender reveal of a fifth child. Every member of the family wearing custom t-shirts that said things like, I'm your big brother. But the father wore one featuring two large peanuts and the words,

Team Nuts has a picnic basket open to release two pigeons and a few blue balloons. The mother seemed to hold back tears, but maybe that was because she remained the only family member not on Team Nuts. I don't like this and neither do the cops. So a February 2023 New York Times headline read, a pigeon was died, then it died.

Now, the New York City Police Department's Animal Cruelty Unit has opened an inquiry, which it should, because last year, this poor pink pigeon was discovered frail and smelling of hair dye behind the Shake Shack in Madison Square Park in New York. And one rescuer told the New York Times that someone had dunked this pigeon in dye all the way up to the top of its head. And sadly, Flamingo, as it was dubbed,

didn't make it through the week and it died likely from ingesting the dye while trying to clean its feathers despite rescue efforts.

And commonly, those dyed doves are king pigeons, which are these all-white breeds used in the meat trade. And in doing some rabbit-holing, it turns out that a 2002 9/11 memorial event in New Jersey couldn't get a hold of professional homing pigeon handlers for its dove release. They were all booked. So the organizers just bought a bunch of white king pigeons from a poultry market.

And because squab are baby pigeons and not good flyers, they were released, but they quickly plunged into the Hudson River or they hit windows. One perched on top of a 9/11 first responders construction hat at the ceremony and the New York Times

reported that the chief organizer for the Jersey City event said that they did save a few hundred dollars because they didn't rent them at premium prices and that buying meat pigeons for this horrific scene to commemorate a horrific scene quote without a doubt beats what could have happened to them which he said was becoming soup what's my point humans can be much grosser than pigeons that's

That's my point. And I guess check a Yelp page if you're going to rent pigeons. Please do not treat them like Easter eggs, because I promise you, when your baby is a teenager, they will see pictures of their gender reveal and they'll bring it up in therapy. A bunch of folks, Sarah Williamson, Valerie Bertha, Megan Walker, Neen, AZM, and Chris Moore wanted to know why their heads bobbed.

They don't. This is one of my favorite facts about pigeons. They look like they bob, right? But secretly, pigeons are not bobbing their heads. What they're doing is they have a lot of neck bones. And so, okay, humans have...

You know, seven neck vertebrae. And when we're walking down the street, we have to make sure that we're not going to step in dog poo or step on a nail or something. And so we're kind of flicking our eyes ahead and keeping our eyes a few steps ahead to look at the ground and make sure that we're not stepping on anything. But because pigeons have these really long necks, what they do is they stick their head out.

And they kind of use their head like this probe where they're sort of looking around, making sure, okay, I'm not going to step on something bad. And then they bring their body up to meet their head, right?

So their head isn't actually bobbing back. It's that their body is catching up with their head. And then they stick their head out again. And they continue to do this motion where their head is sort of like this advanced guard, making sure that everything is okay. So they sort of bob their head forward, but they don't really bob it back and forth the way we think they do. And there are videos on YouTube, think...

the YouTube gods of pigeons walking in slow motion. And you can see this happen. It's really fascinating. Or their body's going forward and then stopping and then forward and then stopping and then forward and then stopping. So it's an optical illusion. So yes, I watched a video of this slowed down by 10 times. And if you train your eye on the pigeon head...

it stays in place like a gimbal or a steadicam, and then the body is indeed what is strutting. Just this fact alone can turn anyone into a rapt pigeon watcher. Anyone you see sitting on a park bench staring off into the distance may actually just be closely observing the biomechanics of pigeon necks. They could also be having a personal life crisis and in a trance of their own mental undoing unrelated to pigeons. And that's fine too, because honestly, we've all had those moments sitting on a

Pigeon Public Relations, asked by Charlotte Parkinson, Olivia Lester, Haley Kay, Zoe Litton, Peregrine, Handria Storm, Sienna, Tia Denlovic, First Time Question Asker, Pigeon Rescuer, Cynthia Zhao, Olivia Coppin, Pidgey Kodo, First Time Question Asker, Essence, Cassie McGee, Mary Long, Sam Nelson, and Andrea Delvin, who want to know about the haters, about the pigeon folks.

And the awkward cactus asked, why do people hate on pigeons so much in a world where geese exist? Which honestly, let's not bring geese into this right now. But yes, Rosemary, as author of the book, A Pocket Guide to Pigeon Watching, Getting to Know the World's Most Misunderstood Bird, is the perfect columbidologist to answer this for that long list of concerned patrons. And I want to ask too about, oh my gosh, I know we have so many questions and I will wrap it up. A lot of people want to know,

about calling them sky rats, about flying rats, about the bad rap they're getting. And we have done a whole episode on urban rodentology about rats. So if you want to call them rats, listen to that one because it'll make you like rats more. But who started calling them that? And can you bust any myths on either disease vectors or anything you want to get on a soapbox about this?

Yeah, I took a deep breath because I have so many thoughts. Yeah, that. So rats with wings is a really frustrating expression. And it's a disservice to both rats and pigeons and wings. So we don't know who started calling them rats with wings, but this fellow Colin Jeremack went and looked at New York Times mentions of rats with wings and he found...

Someone in 1966, this parks commissioner, Thomas P. Hubbing, complaining about pigeons being rats with wings. And the reason he was talking about them being rats is that he was talking about this local park called Bryant Park in New York City that was full of these perceived social ills. So people struggling with substance addictions and people who are unhoused and trash and rats and then these pigeons, which are rats with wings. And so he was kind of lumping all of this together.

undesirable stuff together. And that's the first documentation we have of someone calling them rats with wings. And then Woody Allen in his movie Stardust Memories had someone call them, I think it's Woody Allen himself says, you know, and that was kind of when it entered the cultural zeitgeist. So it's hard to exactly pinpoint it, but it's pretty recent, this whole rats with wings thing.

thing. And I find it really frustrating because pigeons are not the threat that we tend to think that they are disease-wise, although again, you should exercise some caution. They're really not a big problem. Also, interestingly, although rats can be a really troublesome invasive species, pigeons don't seem to be an invasive species. Everybody just assumes they're an invasive species because they're everywhere. And the reason they're everywhere is because we are looking at them and they are where we are at. Wow.

They don't go into remote areas. They don't go into redwood forests. They go where we are. They want to be where we are. We loved your cooking. And their ecological impacts seem to be pretty minimal. Although there was a case in the Galapagos where pigeons were removed from the Galapagos Islands for fear that they would get a local native pigeon species sick. So there are some potential impacts, but mostly...

They're pretty chill and they're not a big problem ecologically. So I don't think it's fair to call them rats. And also they're very different. They made for life. I guess both rats and pigeons make milk, but that's kind of it. Again, listen to the Urban Rodentology episode because Dr. Bobby Corrigan is an angel on earth.

below earth. He can tell you all about New York's sewer superhighway. And I do cry about the beauty of rats loving and caring for each other in that one. And it's not an animal's fault that they're successful in our cities. They're doing a big sleigh and literally leaving no crumbs. Also, yeah, they're feral. It's because of us and our kind of our abandonment of them, right?

Yeah. And I, you know, when, when I say we, I want to be careful because, you know, definitely certain peoples of the world are the ones who carry pigeons all over the place and release them here. And so, for example, the passenger pigeon, which was this, this beautiful and delicious species that indigenous people in North America used to consume and used to sustainably manage.

That is a pigeon where colonists came over and basically went, why are you managing these? Why aren't you eating them all at once? And ate all the passenger pigeons to death and kind of also brought over the Columba levia pigeons. So there's also been this sort of

ecological manipulation from colonization that is one of the reasons why pigeons are all over the place and why the passenger pigeon, alas, is no more. How different anatomically was the passenger pigeon? Because obviously we don't see them anymore. They're extinct, right? Yeah, they were bigger. They had pointy tails. They looked pretty different. They would build little nests in trees, although I've seen the nests. They're okay. They're okay. They're fine. Yeah.

But yeah, they were different in anatomy. They were different in behavior. They were different in sound. They were different in a lot of ways, but they were still in that pigeon family, Columbity, and they were still apparently this delicious and really important food source for a lot of people. And yeah, as colonists kind of destroyed their habitat and also ate them to death and they became more rare, then these highfalutin people in New York City started to pay extra money to eat pigeons.

These rare birds eat the last year passenger pigeons. I know. It's wild to think about. No. Yeah, and it was a pigeon called Martha. Yeah, I'm not really sure. Did someone have...

Her domestically or him, because I don't think they had DNA testing back then, to my knowledge. Oh, she was in a zoo. And I think male and female passenger pigeons looked pretty different. Oh. Unlike the city pigeons. Yeah. So passenger pigeons got their name because they were in these huge numbers, possibly three billion of them in North America. And they'd pass over in giant flocks.

They were the most numerous bird in North America up until the mid-1800s. And they had delicate looking beaks and coloring kind of like a robin with a ruddy breast and gray and black back and wings. And the flocks used to snack on farmers' crops. And there were so many of them naturally occurring that all a person with a shotgun would have to do is shoot upwards and half a dozen would fall out of the sky.

like it was raining cheeseburgers. So that is what colonists did with absolute abandon. And by about 1900, the last known passenger pigeon was shot in the wild. Now, the last living passenger pigeon died in a Cincinnati zoo in the year 1914. Her name indeed was Martha, and she lived, it's estimated, into her late 20s.

And the day that she was found dead on the floor of her cage, the zoo put her in a 300 pound block of ice and shipped her straight from Cincinnati to the Smithsonian in Washington, D.C., where she has been dead ever since. And I looked for news reports about her death since she had been kind of a bird celebrity in her day and Googling Martha Pigeon O'Brien.

obituary, I somehow landed on a legacy.com page for the recently deceased woman, Martha F. Pigeon, who passed away in the summer of 2022. And Martha Frick Pigeon, 86, was a preschool teacher, and then she taught high school algebra. She loved to play bridge. She had such a sweet, warm smile. And then I looked, her memorial service was held on July 8th.

2022, that very same day that my dad died. So both Martha pigeons rest in peace. You too, Pops. Not to make anyone sad. I think it's beautiful. But what about, say, an encore from the world's most celebrated pigeon? Valerie Bertha Caffeine, Carissa Quisenberry, Fiberglass, Sarah Rayleigh King, Helios, and Patricia Evans all want to know about the resurrection of the passenger pigeon, the

Should they be de-extinct? Is that even possible? Is it in the works?

Oh gosh, since so many people want to know, I can't speak on that because I was focusing on Columbolivia, so I don't really know. It doesn't sound like a great idea to me, any sort of de-extinction. Okay, so this organization is called the Revive and Restore Project, and I went on their website and I found a passage titled, How to Make a Passenger Pigeon, which gave this recipe for the five stages of de-extinction, which are one, comparing the genomes of the

passenger pigeon and the existing band-tailed pigeon, then identifying regions of the living band-tailed pigeon's genome to edit, then editing the germline or the sex cells of the living band-tailed pigeons. Step four, breeding a new generation of passenger pigeons in captivity, and then five, reintroducing passenger pigeons

to the wild through proper conditioning and monitoring so yes it involves taking the germline cells of existing pigeons and popping in some code for passenger pigeon sex cells and last year i visited the world center for birds of prey in boise and i was invited into the collections where they slowly pulled out a drawer to reveal a prized tawny colored taxidermied passenger pigeon i was going to say in the flesh but it's just

pretty much the feathers stuffed with cotton. And the moment of seeing it, it had the same energy as if you were 12 and you and your friend snuck into like their older brother's room and they showed you a bong that they were hiding in their closet. Like, isn't this intense? Can you believe that we're seeing this part?

Whoa, that is wild. In part like, oh, should I be concerned for the future? But many people wanted to know about pigeons wearing things. When it comes to fashion, Jesse, Steve K., Adam Foote, and Nick want to know about their apparel. Jesse said, I saw at a zoo in Hamburg, homing pigeons sometimes wear whistles and whistles.

Steve K. and Adam Foote want to know about Steve K.'s daughter, Charlie, who loves pigeons, wants to know whatever happened to the pigeons with cowboy hats in Las Vegas? Are they okay? Can you enlighten me?

Oh, I don't know because that happened after my book came out. I don't know what happened to those pigeons. I'm hoping somebody captured them and removed the cowboy hats from the pigeons, but please don't do that. So yes, at least three pigeons dubbed by locals Cluck Norris, Coulamity Jane, and Billy the Pidge were bobbing about B.

be hatted. No one ever found the culprit. So please never, ever superglue tiny hats onto animals. I can't believe anyone even has to tell anyone this. However, we do have an episode about sea urchins and they do enjoy wearing small 3D printed hats in case you'd like to consume some tales of consensual animal hats. We'll link that episode in the show notes.

But on the topic of helping pigeons, a donation this week will go to Great Lakes Pigeon Rescue on behalf of Rosemary and in memory of her father, pigeon friend Vincent Mosco. And you can learn more about Great Lakes Pigeon Rescue at the link in the show notes. And that donation was made possible by sponsors of the show.

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Okay, where were we? Yes, sticky situations. Don't glue things to pigeons. That's not a good idea. But there are some times when it's okay for pigeons to wear clothes. And I love the example of whistles. So pigeon whistles are especially a big tradition in places in Asia, places like China and Indonesia.

pigeons will be flown around in these big flocks wearing these elaborate and very, very light, because they have to be very light and easy to fly with, whistles that are made of bamboo and various other really light materials. And if you've never heard this, I recommend you do a search because

These pigeons flying overhead will make this kind of like ghostly ethereal whistling noise. It's really very beautiful. And it's this gorgeous tradition. And they don't do it to wild pigeons. People will do it to their own pet pigeons. So whistles are a thing that pigeons will wear also if you have pet pigeons.

One way to keep them from pooping all over your house is to put on pigeon pants on your pigeons. No. So pigeon pants are these amazing little vests with kind of like a butt pocket, like a cloaca pocket. And they come in all kinds of styles. You can get Superman pigeon pants and Spider-Man pigeon pants and little maid pigeon pants. And you can get jorts. What? What?

It's a delight. And the pigeon poops into the pants and then you clean the pants. And yeah, they see. I remember going to one website that sells these and they had this FAQ and they said they had this question, you know, do the pigeons enjoy wearing the pants? And the reply was something like, they get used to it. Oh.

We don't always like wearing pants, but we do what we have to do. And before we started recording, as we were logging on and doing mic checks, Rosemary mentioned her own pet bird, not a pigeon, but still a bird. Do people have those for like parrots and parakeets and cockatiels and stuff?

Those can exist, but pigeons are a little less trainable than some parrots. So I think really they're super popular with pigeon owners. As a bird owner, do your birds kind of know where to go and where not to go?

Yeah, and they will try to get around that at every available opportunity. So parrots are interesting because they are not domesticated. Parrots were just sort of stolen from the wilds and now they live with us. My parrots know they're not supposed to poop on me. And so they will do what I call stealth poop where they'll try to like sneak it without me knowing or they'll fly to a place and they'll poop and they'll come back. So sort of whatever mood they're in. But pigeons, I know people who are trying to train their pigeons to poop in the potty.

And some pigeons seem to take to it and some of them do not at all. And that's when you get the pants. I love a pant. Well, last listener question. It's unfortunate that they don't have shoes because in first time question asker Natalie Quinonez's words, is it true that pigeons sometimes lose their toes because they get tangled in human hair from the streets? Kira,

Simon Kennedy, first-time question asker, said, one of my professors did research on why pigeons in Paris have messed up toes, and it turns out it's due to human hair. Paris Simon Kennedy, first-time question asker, included with her question a mention of the 2019 paper, Urban Pigeons Losing Toes Due to Human Activities.

And other patrons, including Lee Lawler, Lisa Nijwe, Fiberglass, KittyKat81, Cassandra Rodriguez, Juliet Petranks, Asia Yeager, and AB had pigeon foot questions. And Laura Kelleher, first-time question asker, and Jen McGillivray wanted to know, why do they have stumpy feet? Hannah asked about their nub feet. And Naomi Jane wants to know, should I feel awful that my long hair molts so much? And a ton of others want to know about...

Can you tell me about it?

Yeah, so I don't think you should feel bad about having long hair. I really don't. I think that you shouldn't collect a ton of your hair and put it in a big pile where pigeons are going to be walking around. But pigeon feet get damaged for a whole bunch of different reasons. Really what's going on is that pigeons walk when they forage. So you look at like a little sparrow and they hop, they hop around and they perch on twigs and stuff. Pigeons aren't really perchers. They're really, they walk and they forage and they walk around. And so whatever we have on the ground is

whether it's bits of string or bits of trash or sharp things, they will just kind of walk and they'll injure their feet for all sorts of different reasons. They'll get them tangled up too in different strings and different hairs. So if you see a pigeon that's in trouble like that, there are Facebook communities called Stringfoot Saviors and various other things like that. And there are communities where people will trap their local pigeons

And then figure out sanitary ways to remove the string and keep the pigeons feet, you know, healthy during that process. I've personally rescued pigeons that have wrapped up feet and taken them to rehabbers, but I have not gone around and captured pigeons and

trimmed the strings from their feet. So I can't guarantee that that's going to work, but I think you should check out those Facebook groups. And that, you know, this is one of the things is like, we all get so frustrated with humanity in general, but I really believe that most people are pretty good. And the fact that there are people out there who care enough about pigeons to

that they will catch them, endure the social stigma of standing there with tiny scissors and a little pigeon and some antiseptic, you know, and help this little bird. Just makes me feel so much better about the world.

There is a TikTok going around about it looks so evil because there's this woman who's throwing birdseed and then all of a sudden she swoops in like a hawk and grabs a pigeon. And you're like, what is this bitch doing? And then it turns out she's just got her eye on the ones that have string foot and she's grabbing them.

And like calming them down and then de-string footing them. So hero, a pigeon hero. Yeah, that is so wonderful. And also, you know, I hope she's not teaching people to catch pigeons and then... Tell me about it. I know. Tell me about it. Be part of the Facebook group.

Be apprenticed before you do it. So let's hand it to the feet-seeking volunteers out there who deserve their own documentary. I would watch that. Speaking of media, how have these ubiqua birds flittered their way into our eyes and ears and hearts? Asked patrons, Deli Dames, The Dork Next Door, Danny C., Dave Cannon, Scott Hanley, Abraham Livingston, and first-time question asker, Andrea Marie Squirrel Tree Riggin.

who had questions about a wide variety of songs and dances and pigeon movies, including Maggie Morgan and Katie, who asked, what is the ologist's opinion on Burt's doing the pigeon song and dance? Is it a good Sesame Street bit or the best Sesame Street bit? I love pigeons and I love how they walk. And I've created a really cool dance called doing the pigeon.

I'll answer that. It's the best. But overall, any movies that you think don't do pigeons dirty? Oh, gosh. So there is a pigeon movie database. It's like the PMDB. And sadly, like right after my book was published, the person stopped updating it. So if you're out there, please update it where they went through and they talked about

Whether, you know, every single movie that has pigeons in it is doing the pigeons, you know, dirty or doing the pigeons nicely. I think my favorite is Home Alone 2. Merry Christmas. Granted, it's been a long time since I've seen it, but there's the pigeon lady in Home Alone 2 and she has all of her pigeons. People pass me in the street. They see me, but they try to ignore me. They prefer I wasn't part of their city. Yeah, it's sort of like that with my family.

I'm kind of the pigeon of the house because I'm the youngest. And at first you're you're sort of scared of the pigeon lady. But then you realize that actually she just loves pigeons and she's this good person. And, you know, she's got a lot of big feelings. And I think that's true of all of us weirdos, myself included, who enjoy pigeons is, you know, people are good and care about pigeons and have big hearts. So I definitely like that one.

And those pigeons were trained actors, right? From what I saw in your book? They were, yeah. There were hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pigeons that were trained for that. They were all domesticated pigeons. And what's really sweet is they were rotated out of scenes so that they wouldn't get too tired being in Home Alone 2. And they just knew where to hit their mark and then when to fly off? I don't know how much food was involved. Yeah.

training was involved there. But pigeons can be trained to do some pretty cool stuff. I mean, B.F. Skinner taught them to play ping pong. So you could probably train them to do a little bit of acting. Where's the pigeon Oscars? That's what I want to know. The pigeons walking the red carpet? This is a good question. All they got to do is just put a trail of bagel and then that's how you walk the red carpet. Yes.

Strutting the red carpet chest out, beak first, because pigeons deserve our respect and our adulation for going barefoot in New York, for delivering messages long before DMs, for their natural iridescence, and for not actually giving any city dwellers meningitis in the 1960s. So if you are a friend to pigeons and you help them, you're a friend to Rosemary. You know, thank you for rescuing pigeons, people. And consider adopting a pet pigeon.

I'm thinking about it now. I mean, the pants alone. I'm like, exciting. There's so many styles and you can get pants for every holiday. Halloween, Christmas, little Santa outfits. Gold. Hanukkah pigeons. I'm going to be Googling the pigeon shit out of that. That's so exciting.

And I know I always ask, you know, that a tough thing about what you do or is there anything that is not your favorite about pigeons or is there anything that was difficult in writing the book that was just that really gotcha? I think it's always hard to write books about animals and not get sad about some of the things that we've done to animals and some of the things that we've done to people.

So, you know, hitting those points of injustice were really hard and it was hard to kind of figure out how to talk about those in a book that was supposed to be kind of funny and goofy and full of cartoons.

That and the isolation of writing a book or doing this kind of media are really challenging. So, you know, I always like, you know, hint, hint, if anyone wants to send me emails and say, hey, I read your things because I just sort of put stuff out into the void. And then, you know, I go and read a book very quietly. So that can be challenging, too. And people can find you on social media, too, and find your email, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'm around. Yeah.

You're more adored than you realize, I'll tell you that straight off the bat. But what about your favorite thing about pigeons? I think it's the milk.

Wow. Okay, great. It's hard to not be obsessed with the milk. I mean, they're making milk. It's just shocking. And I remember rescuing a really young pigeon at one point and there was no nest and it was kind of like in the middle of nowhere. And I remember calling the wildlife rehabber and they said, you have to bring it in because we have to make milk.

formula for this pigeon because it needs milk, which is just amazing. I mean, I kind of want to see like a mug of this stuff. How is this? How do they make milk?

It's just so delightful. Convergent evolution is just incredible. You know, how did we stumble on milk and they stumbled on milk? And here we are just like nursing our babies into vastly different locations and ways. It's just fascinating. But all in the same city. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that and I think, you know, knowing that Tesla and Darwin and a bunch of famous people were head over heels in love with pigeons also really made me delighted.

Tesla in particular, who described his love of a pigeon almost like the love of a woman. It was his reason for being, from what I know. Yeah, he said, I love that pigeon. I loved her as a man loves a woman. Yeah, he fell in love with one particular pigeon. And I also just learned recently that he passed away in an accident while he was on his way to feed his local feral pigeons. So he was...

pigeon obsessed. He was all about pigeons. Yeah. So where are the billionaires who are putting all of their money into Tesla-based corporations designed to help pigeons? That's what I want to know. This is the call to action we've been waiting for. 100%. You got money? Put it in pigeons.

Maybe betting, maybe just an investment in their well-being. And if you would like to invest in a book, Rosemary has many, including Flowers Are Pretty, Weird, Butterflies Are Pretty, Gross, Birding Is My Favorite Video Game, Cartoons About the Natural World from Bird and Moon, and Expedition Backyard. Of course, also the now classic A Pocket Guide to Pigeon Watching, Getting to Know the World's Most Misunderstood Bird, and the upcoming There Are No Ants in this book. I mean,

I mean, yeah, I have two picture books coming out. One I can talk about called There Are No Ants in this book that comes out this summer and is about, spoiler alert, there are ants. It's a kid's picture book. And then I have another book for adults. I will caution people, although my pigeon book has cartoons.

It is for adults and has some very elaborate descriptions of pigeon marital activities. I've had a few people say, oh, it's got cartoons. I'm buying it for my six-year-old. And I'm like, no, no, no, but buy it for yourself and you'll be amused. But yeah, I'm the only Rosemary Moscow in the world. So if you Google me, you'll get me for good and for bad.

I'm so happy I got a chance to talk to you. Getting to sit and talk with you about pigeons anywhere in the world in any form is a privilege. So thank you for doing this. Well, thank you. All these listener questions were amazing and talking to you was such a delight. So yeah, you made my whole day. You and the pigeons I saw this morning.

So ask pigeon people pertinent questions because look at that. They're eager to talk and change your mind. So I hope you stop to look at a pigeon and say, hey, buddy, I see you and I like you even more now. And of course, pick up any of Rosemary's books and you can find her site linked in the show notes.

She's on social media at her name, Rosemary Mosco, and a donation went to the Great Lakes Pigeon Rescue in memory of her late wonderful dad and pigeon appreciator, Vincent Mosco. Think of him when you see a pigeon, send a little cosmic hug to Rosemary as she grieves that loss. I've been there. It's tough. Rosemary, we adore you and we adore pigeons. We are at Ologies on Twitter or

And on Instagram, where we repost your Ologies art every Friday and your merch photos on Monday, Ologies merch is available at ologiesmerch.com. And we have some new designs like an ask blank people blank questions. You can fill in with a Sharpie however you like or leave it as is. We have a field guide shirt that I love and bathing suits. We have them all at ologiesmerch.com. Erin Talbert admins the Ologies podcast Facebook group. Aveline Malik and the Wordery make up

professional transcripts. Kelly R. Dwyer works on the website. Noelle Dilworth is our scheduling producer. Susan Hale is our grant puppeteer and managing director. Jake Chafee is our assistant editor. And dusting up my crumbs into a whole bagel is lead editor Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio. And if you stick around until the end of the episode, I tell you a secret. And this week, it's that I forgot to say Nick

Thorburn wrote the theme music, which he did. I also forgot to tell you about Smologies, which are shorter kid-friendly episodes that we have. You can find them at alieward.com slash Smologies or link to the show notes. Very fun announcement coming soon about that. Some changes we're making on May 16th. Anyway, the secret. The secret is it is 5.56 in the morning Pacific time and I'm leaving. I'm supposed to leave in four minutes for the airport. It's going to be maybe five.

but I'm going to Mexico City today and I'll be there for a few days. I have a friend, my friend Catherine Burns is a choreographer. She's teaching down there and we keep saying we're going to take a trip together. So I'm going to go down there. We're going to see some museums. There's field trip episodes coming soon, including one on axolotls. What? So I'm going to go do some science reporting there, which you'll get to hear in upcoming episodes. But yeah, I'm supposed to leave in a few minutes.

It's going to be fine. I also slept 13 hours last night. So I feel like I'm overall doing okay. This wasn't the best secret and I'm sorry about that. But another secret is the best pair of tweezers I've ever found. I found...

I like pigeons.

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