How To Create Better Relationships: 6 Surprising Lessons From 28 Years Of Marriage
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Hey, each friend male and welcome to the male Robin's podcast. Today I am doing something i've never done before sitting here on my screen porch in southern vermont. And i've been married for thirty years, my husband same as, and I have never done what i'm about to do today.

So i've been getting a lot of questions recently about how Chris I have made our marriage last. And so I decided what we would do is we would each come up with three lessons that we've learned the hard way after being together for thirty years. Now here's the catch.

I have no idea what crisis three things are. Chris has no idea what my three lessons are, so I have no idea where this is going, but I do know this. It's definitely going to go somewhere unexpected, and it's also going to open up some unexpected breakthrough s for you too.

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And is your friend male? Welcome to the male Robin's podcast. IT is always such an honor to be able to spend time with you and to be together. And if you ran you, welcome to the rose podcast family.

I am so thrilled because today I am inviting you to join me and my husband on our screening porch here in southern vermont, where we're going to be sharing lessons from thirty years of being together. And i'm going to warn you, these are lessons we've learned the hard way. What I love is we prepared separately for this conversation.

So I did my homework, and I have three lessons from thirty years of being together. He did his homework separately. He has three lessons from us being together.

I ve had no idea what he's going to say. He is no idea what i'm going to say and I am so excited to jump into this. Oh, here comes Chris right now so that further a do let's jump into IT.

Oh my gosh, Chris. Thank you for being here. I know that it's not your favorite thing to be ond camera and to I have these personal conversations actually .

the personal conversations are worthy but being on camera, yeah, that's I don't run for that.

What i'm happy .

to be here. Thanks for the invitation.

Why did you agree to do this? Because I love you. Oh, I love you.

And I also trust that this is not a conversation about relationship advice as much as IT is pass doubling down on some of these things that are so important to our relationship.

So in other words, this is an opportunity for you to give me a tune in our marriage that for fact, while um we create a pocket epson a little bit.

but for me too.

I love that. Okay.

that's why i'm here.

Oh my god, that's one here too. alright. We each came to the table with three things that have made a difference in our marriage, like pieces of wisdom and reflection. Even preparing for what I wanted to say reminded me of how important these things are and that I need to be more intentional about doing them.

Me too. awesome.

Don't you're not at a cry already, are you? You know, oh, my. Oh my gosh. Okay um well, what you go first. okay. Well, I actually brought no card because um I wanted to make sure I could remember all three things so you get to know .

card what you .

have Better memory than I do and you have the ability to hold more information in your brain. And as we both know, i'm all over the place. So I really wanted to get this right and I wanted to stay on task.

And so the first piece of advice that I have for myself that I want to remind myself of, I got to give a huge shout out to my parents, martian bob sneider borger. They were visiting us just a couple months ago here in southern vermont, and IT was there fifty six wedding anniversary this june. And I ask them if they had any advice to share about what has made them go the distance after fifty six years.

And I tell them all the time that they're a huge inspiration to me because their stories very unlikely that they would have made IT. My mom getting pregnant with me at nineteen, dropping out of college, are then being such a Young couple, really just fighting through those early years without family around the fact that you've made IT fifty six years together. They're very different personalities.

And so I asked him, mom, dad, what do you think has made you go the distance? And I want to play a clip for you, and then we can react to IT. And i'll tell you what my advice to myself is. Okay, so today is your fifty six wedding anniversary. And I was just wondering, dad, what if I should you give to people about how to have a successful long term relationship?

Well, if you are, it's like selling a boat. You'll have those nice com see some days and then other days you may be sAiling through a storm. So I would say you've got ta be prepared for up and downs, and you have to realize that there are two sides to every story and your opinion may not always be the correct one. So there's given take in any relationship. And I think that one of the things that makes IT work out.

good point. What do you do when you're sAiling through one of the stormy periods? Like how to keep together?

How do you know if it's a storm? We're silent. You want to mean .

like why wouldn't IT be we started out the journey together. We want to finish IT together. That was a commitment we made that fifty six years ago.

So you put on a life track and a safety harness. You go, baby, and move on, take another step forward. I mean.

he is very .

grounded and even killed in in his own ways, but just. Seeing IT from both sides, I think what struck me is this, this his apparent ability to see IT from both sides, and also just the steadfast commitment.

The thing that struck me about that is two things.

First, all I love that my mom's in the background five minute you know, like I just freaking love hearing her in the background um that was just really cute but the moment that really struck me as he is when he just literally was like, why wouldn't we started out a jury together? We wanted finish IT together and that brings me to the first piece of advice or wisdom that i'm gona share, which is get in the boat. Get in the boat.

I think that um nominis or crying uses why are you going? Well, I think because if you've been together for thirty years, there are lots of times where you want to get out of the boat. And i've made the mistake way too many times of finding myself and a raft with a bunch of friends bitching about you first is being in the boat with you.

And I wanted to start out with that piece of advice because. Too often, I think people are in relationships, hoping IT works. You're in the boat in the beginning. But then as things get rocky or the journey gets boring or the little things start to happen that build up, he starts to question whether or not you're gona get there and you aren't even in the boat anymore. And the first thing I would say to anybody that wants a very successful relationship is you've to be honest with yourself if you're actually even in the boat, because no advice is gonna matter if you're not interested in making the relationship work, that even in those moments, cries where we were going through excruciating ly, difficult situations and issues and breakdowns, either with each other or ourselves, or our kids, or financially, our crisis of confidence in our careers, problems with drinking, all of IT that .

deep down inside.

Just like my parents said, I always knew I wanted to finish the journey together, but I haven't been that great at always being in the boat. And so I think you have to ask yourself, am I even in the boat in this relationship? Or am I sitting there on the outside judging IT or hoping we make IT you have to have a commitment with yourself that you are going to get in the boat with your partner and you're gna do your part or else is not .

going to make .

IT relationships work because two people make a decision to get in a boat together .

and make IT work.

And that's mine. First piece of advice is beautiful.

Do you find yourself going back and asking yourself, why did I get in the boat in the first place .

as yeah like god. No, absolutely bite you.

no. But if you're outside of the boat or you're even able to recognize that he am outside of the boat, there's gotta something that has sort of get you back in the game, so to speak. And going back to the beginning and wondering why I get this boat in the first place might be one place to start.

That's a good thing. Like does that metaphor mean anything .

to you .

in terms of you seeing moments in your life where you are out of the boat, either on a life raft or being dragged behind IT? Or like when I first met you.

I I mean, I think we we fell in love so quick and or I should say that like we knew when we knew when I was so sudden. But the idea that one should reflect, at least for a moment, as to whether or not they could envision themselves eighty five years old, you know, on the front porch, with that person rocking next to them, like that, their person that they see themself next to. And for me, the answer was an effect, absolutely. But little .

little know the crazy is spinning the services.

I was just say, like, that's a visual we are yep, that doesn't mean if somebody sits back and think about let me think about all the storms that we're going to go through in the the waves and the rocking and the blow blow blood and the ship breaks and well, that's that's a very different train of thought then I think sort of seeing yourself in the end.

I think the mistake a lot of people make is you get obsessed with the stuff on the surface and you fall for somebody because they're good looking or they got a great job. Or you know, if you have this wonderful life dating and you forget that if you actually want to go the distance, it's truly about all the things that you can see that make a relationship work.

Is the person kind? Do they have you in mind? Are they are, consider IT the life to have fun. I'm none of these things, by the way, I like.

but I belongs .

I that is not true, but it's the things that are beneath the surface. And IT comes back to this idea and this question that you have to ask yourself, when you are, you even in the boat, because you can almost always see when a couple breaks up, whether it's a divorce or a break up or they drift apart and they feel like the roommates and they're just coexisting, which we've had years of our life that I felt like that, that at some point you just quietly start quitting the thing. And that is what I mean by, are you even in the boat?

Without that desire to want to make IT work, IT will not work. And I wanted sert there because I feel like the rest of the things that I would have to offer in terms of a reflection of being in a relationship with you for thirty years and thinking about all the mistakes that i've made or the things that I would do over now that I know what I know. None of that advice actually matters if you're not even in the boat.

Yeah, well, that certainly is a question you have to ask yourself. But is in my turn to go, can I give one the the comment that you made about, you know, maybe people look at the surface level stuff verses, are they kind that they have my best interests? I mean, my first thing that came to mind was flowers. And here .

come the tears.

yes. it's. Um and that sounds so simple buying you flowers. But the I would say the emotion is comes from. How long IT took to realize how important receiving flowers was to and the analogy of the boat and being in the boat is a good one because.

I remember, I remember feeling like I was in the boat throwing really hard. And sorry, you. And we were rowing our own boats.

In theory, you would come home. This is when you're travelling a ton and you to come home on a friday night. And, you know, i'd be, i'd have thought that I had thought of everything.

The house is cleaner. The kids are ready to greet you. 在哪儿？ And of course, often you would come in exhausted.

And I don't know if .

that happened in the moment, but that weekend are some there was A. A real disappointment that you expressed, like you can even buy me flowers. I'm not putting IT in the right context except that that really hit me that um here I was thinking I was in the boat doing all the right things um but the thing that really, truly would have made you felt like I was thinking about you was not you know whether the dinner was made or the kids were at home where the house was cleaned but I was your love joy of flowers and I think that that the thing that was when I was reflecting on this I remember of course, all the years knowing how much you loved flowers. We would like walk around our house and do this like garden tour like let's go on a garden tour and walk .

around IT sounds like we lived in the stage he basically sang, do a loop around the little house and look at our little flower beds with the .

flowers from home. And your parents love of gardening and flowers. And of course, you're knowledge of flowers. And I mean, I was so clear as day that you are all about flowers, but IT never ever occurred to me that buying them, having them on the table for you, or even going out and cutting the ones that you were growing, would have really made you feel.

Taken care of and you know it's not an excuse that I never saw my own father a hand flower. He was more of a jewelery than flower guy with my mom. But I just I looking back on IT realized like there's a level to which you could go deeper with your spouse to find out what. Really matters and the things that often I thought did yeah sure they were importantly made a difference but they didn't strike the cord. Um so those little simple backs of kindness that are not ones that you think are are the ones that are going to make a difference, but trying to get in there and listen for what that matters to you.

he's really painful to see how sad you get.

The sadness is not an indication that i'm still holding onto IT. It's reflective of my ability to take .

myself .

back there.

Don't go back there please but to your dad's .

analogy like don't don't don't look into the tears in that i'm not hanging on that are harboring IT but IT you know was part of the rough seas and just to wide this .

out um we kind of understand the context. This was a period of our lives that was extraordinary chAllenging because we had three kids under the age of ten and we were in massive financial trouble. And Chris had just was either in the process of leaving a restaurant business city had started with his best friends that was not doing wealth financially.

And I was the breadwinner, and I was on the road one hundred and fifty days a year, and I was making money giving keynote speeches at these big corporate events. And it's how we were paying our bills. And Chris, uh, was the primary caregiver.

He was the state home dad. He was absolutely for an amazing. And what was interesting about this period of time is that we were both and really hard, and we were in separate boats. And my therapy and David, who I talk about a lot, gave me this analogy that in every relationship there's the mistake, there's the wee stage, and then there's what he calls that god stage, where you're like deeply, energetically connected and you have the other person in mind. And what was happening for me during this period of time.

And I think regardless of whether you have kids or not, regardless of you know what your gender is or what your role is in the relationship, IT is so easy to feel taken for granted. And I felt taken for granted because I didn't want to be on the road, I didn't want to be missing out, I didn't want to have the responsibility of my shoulders of black making the money. And I was terrified about how just depressed you seemed.

And I was also grateful that you were home with the kids so that I could go and travel. There's lots of people that are in relationships where one of you has to travel for work, whether you're a longing all truck driver or you're like my brother and you're on the road five days week as your consultation, where you work the night shift and you and your partner on completely different schedules. And when that happens, you both go into the me stage and you feel very in your corner about what you're doing.

And what's interesting about this is that, well, I would be like on a plane or at some random hotel somewhere, going into, like some conference room, to give a speech to two hundred people and then get back on a plane I would call home. And the kids didn't seem to miss me because everyone was busy, which is great, because that means there in their lives, and you would often not even know what city OS and. And so I felt alone, and then I would come home and I would be exhausted.

And all of the things that you listed, which I deeply appreciated, our houses in great shape, our kids are mentally well. Things are being taken care of, so i'm not worried about, but I would come home and IT wasn't really even about buying flowers is that there would be vase in the middle of the kitchen where there were dead flowers because I had picked them the day we like the weekend before. And then I left.

And I would be this symbol that nobody was thinking of me, but I was gone. And often times you were not at home because you are off coaching, you know, one of the kids teams. And so I felt like nobody even cared that I was coming home.

And what I love about this example that you're giving, Chris, and by saying its flowers, it's not about the flowers, it's about what they represent, that it's easy to get stuck in the mistake, what i'm doing, what you're doing, what you're get up, up, up the the logistics to actually take your relationship to the wee stage. I use the analogy of the boat you have to get in the boat and what you're now bringing into the boat is this idea that do you even have the other persons in mind, do you? And I and i'm going right on the record. I did not have you in mind and we were expecting .

each other .

to look at the individual effort and check the box that, that was the effort that the marriage required and your marriage and your relationship requires something other than the me level, and the tending to all the things that are the responsibility of both of us. And we spent years fighting out the dishes and the this and the dog and the who's doing this and who's on first and who's on second, and we completely ignored.

Do you have the other person in mind? Because it's not about the flowers. And I know that's what you're getting at. It's about just stopping to think, is there one thing I can do today that shows that i've had my partner in mind? And so for me, the flowers became the symbol that while I was gone during a very crazy week, we are taking care of a brazilian things in our community and running the booster club for the high school.

And just being an absolutely amazing dad, was there a moment where you stopped and went, or else coming home and I am thinking about her. And so the act of walking outside and cutting some flowers means at some point in the business ness of the week, you had me in mind and you are actually excited that I was coming home. And I think about this today in how I always, if i'm going out for coffee, bring you something, or I make coffee for you in the morning, or I try to do things that demonstrate that I have you in mind.

But I feel like if I could go back in time and like hit a race I period in our marriage, or do things differently, IT would be that time because I was really hard, and i'm proud of us for put on a life jacket strapped in the safety belt. And IT gets to the point where even though there were times are so pissed at you and you are pissed at me and we like we're in our separate corners, I never ever didn't want to finish finish the journey with you. Thank you for sharing them.

Thank you for. Thank you for saying something honestly about the flowers because you're write. It's not about the flowers except that after that there was there was a different level of anticipation and joy and enthusiasm when I was getting flowers or cutting flowers or and that part of me was angry that somebody like yourself had to point IT out to me. But at the same time there, I think that did wake me up to this idea that there's more to IT, that there's a that there's a level to which one can listen and have somebody in mind that is um that takes two to understand.

I really appreciate you sharing this. And one of the things that I want to acknowledge that i'm really proud of us for is that we ve always had this ability in this desire to go deeper than the thing that we're actually upset about are arguing about and think. One of the big takeaway is one way that you could empower your partner is to think about what is something that shows you that your partner has you in mind.

And i'll give you an example from my life right now, I try to go outside everyday. You know, it's going to mean no, and pick up the shovel and walk around the yard and pick up dog poop because I want you to know that caring for these dogs are making sure are long is not littered with dog pop, is not just on your shoulders and I don't know if you know that um but that's there's a lot of things that I try to do so that I have you in mind. And this is sunday. I appreciate .

you going out doing well.

There is a lot of other things that sitting outside on the spring porch, so I just was looking out there and all the dogs and was like.

like that. Now I I would say that, like, even I grew up in a household of men, with the exception of my mom. But like, putting the toilets sit down is a perfect example of just keeping the other in mind.

You know, it's so simple is just consideration. It's thinking about small ways you can show up to make the other person's life a little Better. And is there anything that I could do to have you in mind, like I made the request that if you're going to the grocery store, just grab a little thing, a tool PS. Like you don't need to buy a dozen roses, just the cheap little flowers there shows me that you thought about me that makes a difference, something I could do Better to show you that I have you in mind.

Hm, not that I .

can think of .

now right now, but maybe before we finish, i'll think of something. This went .

really powerful and profound very quickly. So I feel like this a great time to hit the pause button so we can hear a word from our sponsors and I can wipe away the tears. And maybe you're gona share this with the person that you love. Because I know if you listen to this conversation, IT is going to open up so many things for you to talk about, and that is just amazing.

That's how you come together and you get stronger and you weather these storms, and you have more fun being in that boat together, but don't dare go anywhere, because after this short break, Chris and I are going to be waiting for you in this boat. And i've got my second lesson from thirty years being together to share with the next stay with us. others.

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My husband is here. I'm so excited. We are sharing lessons that we've learned, mostly the hard way from being together for thirty years.

And so the second lesson that I wanted to share is the importance of learning to love somebody exactly as they are and exactly as they aren't. I think too often we love the potential, but we don't actually love the person. And there's a big difference.

And what I mean about this is that I feel like we ve gotten to a point, after being together for thirty years, where I truly am able to love you exactly as you are versus spending a lot of time wishing you were different. and. I feel like there's a lot of people in relationships that fall in love with somebody, and they can love the person as they are when they meet.

But then, of course, the more time you spend with somebody and as you go through the absence downs and the waves in the storms of life, you see how somebody responds to situations, you see their past trauma come out, you see, uh, bad habits, you see coping mechanisms. And it's very easy to want to pressure someone to change and to want someone to be more like you, that a lot of what frustrates um people in relationships. And i'm only saying this based on my own experience and based on what as I reflected, what do most of my friends complain about when they're privately complaining about the person that they're with. And it's all the things that you wish the person would change. And look, i'm not saying .

that you shouldn't .

make request about somebody building some skills, helping out more around the house, having healthier habits, taking Better care of themselves. That S A wonderful thing to work together on in relationship. What i'm talking about is pressuring someone to be more like you or pressuring someone to change. And I can give you some examples because you are unbelievable at this.

You are going to give me the bad stuff, or you gonna give .

me the good stuff.

That would mean, well, you just said everybody's got a list.

Oh, do i'm crises got long, long on me. I guess the point that i'm trying to make is that I used to be the kind of person that in the beginning of a relationship, I felt IT was my jo B2Become exa ctly lik e the per son I w as wit h. And I would take up all the sports. I would, uh, try to have all the same habits.

I even lie to you the very first conversation that we had because we started talking and was very clear to me that you were not only devastatingly handsome um and I wanted to go home with you that night but I also could assess that you are a very outdoorsy person and i'm a very a active person. And I did grew up in A A family where there was camping and we had a boat, and I grew up on a lake connected, lake michigan. And so we grew up ice fishing and fishing the, uh, steel head run, you know, in the fall.

And so I grew up thrones tackle over the side of a boat. I certainly have cleaned a salmon like I, I, I grew up in that kind of family but when I became clear that you were like fancy outdoor man, i'm like, oh, I fly fish too, which is a bull face lie and never even held one in my hand that came back to bite me in the eyes. But the point is that i've gotten to the point where.

I realized that part of the magic in our relationship is you're not trying to change me. You get up an hour and a half before I do, and you never shame me about that. In fact, often times you will close the curtains so I can sleep.

You love to ski. Our kids love the sky. I realized i'm not really seeing. You do not shame me about that. You love to golf.

And as much as you may wish that I would take up golf, I just have never been drawn to the sport. I am messy. I I forget the flat out the cardboard boxes.

I'm loud. I'm late and I don't feel feel pressure from you. I sometimes know that I drive you crazy. I sometimes know that I exhaust you, but I don't ever feel pressure or judgment from you. There is a level of acceptance and learning to embrace who I am and who am not. That is absolutely incredible and IT makes me want to be Better like having you accept me for all of that because there's a lot of great stuff that comes with me up. There's a lot of horrible stuff that comes with me too, just in an overwhelming and oh my god, shift me like that but I don't feel judgment from you.

I feel like you're always in my corner and that makes me ironically, and this is like a huge takeaway to IT makes me want to be Better IT makes me interested in trying things that you do because I want to spend more time with you and it's just a simple thing is one of the kindest things that you can do is truly loving the person for who they are and who they're not and stop pressuring them to be somebody different. I give them the space to grow into IT if they choose to. But if you're if you're with with somebody because of the potential .

you're in the wrong relationship, mean IT. Is you are speaking of unconditional love, right? Or would you call unconditional loving somebody on conditional different than what you're speaking of?

I think I would call a different weekend. I think unconditional love does not mean a unconditional tolerance of bad. I think some boy's behaviour reveals the truth about who they are, no question. And we tend to explain away behavior and just look at the potential. And you've never done anything that is cross the line in terms of being emotionally abusive or disrespectful or um hurting me in that regard.

And i'm only saying that because I can imagine somebody listening might be but what if the person's kind of a nurse, a sister using that I I am supposed to accept them yeah I am saying that because when you're with somebody who is disrespectful or never has you in regard or treats you terrible or is abuse of you, I never said that gets drunk and smacked like whatever. When you explain away bad behavior, you're actually chasing the potential of who that person can be, and you're not choosing to see who they actually are. And so i've never been in a situation with you where your behavior revealed anything except for love toward me.

But there are aspects of my personality that I know are awful. And for a long time, i'll give you an example. I used to hate the fact that you are introverted. I used to hate the fact that you would ask so many questions because you're an inquisitive person.

I thought you still .

hate that about I, but I used to wish that you would change. I used to wish that you were the life of the party. And I used to build up silent resentment about IT. And that's not fair. And so I just think it's really important to see those, to be honest with yourself, when you're in a relationship, where are you puni shing somebody, the person you chose? And if you can't actually love them exactly as they are and literally give up any stake or hope that they're going to change, then that's not the relationship for you.

The relationship's .

not gonna work. If you're secretly hoping this person is different, people reveal who they are based on their behaviour. And I am not saying that people can learn to cook and they can't learn how to pick up after themselves or put the toilet seat down or they can't learn how to be more considered. Those are skills that's very different than somebody's fundamental nature, somebody's personality, somebody's mental health, uh, disposition or storm they're going through.

And I think it's .

a really important thing to learn how to love the person instead of pressuring them or chasing the potential or wishing they would change. I said.

thank you for sharing. I love you. I love you too. Thank you for loving me for being a little .

more really.

Did IT ever occur to you that maybe I am the life of the party? Just on a little quieter note.

Um no. You know, what I love about this conversation, Chris, is that even after being together for thirty years, I still learn new things about you, and I absolutely love that. And that's available in absolutely every relationship that you have if you're willing to lean in and to learn and open yourself up to the possibilities of constantly growing and learning new things about the person that you're with.

And if you share this with them and you listen together, I promise you the conversation that will result will absolutely help you learn new things about the person that you're with. So stay with us. Let's your work more sponsors when we come back crisis up next.

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Market docomo sh mal for thirty percent off your first order, but a three sixty dollar gift that T H R I V E market a com smell through market a com smell. Welcome back if your friend mell, i'm here with my husband, Chris. We are sharing lessons with you today about the things that we've learned the hard way after being together for thirty years. So Chris, what's your second lesson?

My my next thought is understanding the roles that we play or can play, or think that .

we should be playing.

And i'll never forget IT, that when we got married on our wedding day, if you remember, I was so like, stunning ly, beautiful. And we're sitting on this tennis court. And weird music that we had chosen was playing, and you got to the top of the air, and nobody stood up because they didn't know what to do with like they were like, we're having an nobody experience here. And you were like, are you gonna .

get up IT was remarkable.

You walked down the aisle and two of our friends spoke on behalf of us, and they talked about how you were the tornadoes, and I was the .

rock and vesle shot up in and start with college room mate, lovey gran.

Even you calling upon everybody to stand up for you who is sort of it's, I like in that to some of your incredible energy, but certainly torn to like at times, just like all the things that you've been describing. But I hate IT being a rock. What I did not embrace that I I didn't internalize being the rock in the way that I can comprehend IT today, IT actually sounded really frequent, boring and dull, and as you say, introverted or whatever. Just what's more useless than iraq? What is literally how I .

adopted, literally totally different thing. I like the world, and is the nightmare of the relationship. And the rock is the foundation, the strength, the certainty that holds IT all together.

that the tornado s fun and the rock is boring. wow. And so, but I did, I did internalize the rock probably too much.

I ve never .

about in this context of a stability, strength, reliability. And so of course, naturally, as a guy that really started to, especially once we started to have kids, was all about the money. And this natural inclined to think that a good rock IT can be relied upon for the money.

And when you and I actually made a decision to. Not be running a zone defense on our family, but instead you are going na focus on career and money. And I was going to focus more on the family that this was .

like ten years ago.

That was certainly the best decision we ever made in that your relationship to money and your creativity around IT, your freedom around IT IT became so apparent after we made that call. And IT also was a parent that my own relationship to money was distorted, and I had beaten myself down and convinced myself that I was not the reliable rock that I was supposedly called out to be because you .

didn't make money.

Well, I know I was never enough. I think, of course, I internalize the fact that not only had I not made enough, but our predicament was largely the cause of my own. And I. Neither here nor there the that that ability or sort of our own willingness to actually stop and consider that may be we had a different opportunity to play different roles in our household, I think was monumental.

Yeah I I want wide the sound a little bit because I think this is an issue that you and I has strugling with its so many couples due, which is how are you dividing up the labor's are on word, but the responsibility and relationship and the weight that society puts on your shoulders based on traditional roles that people have played in relationship.

And when prison I first met, we were both working and we we contributed equally to our joint income. And we've always had a joint checking account. I've never quite understood the philosophy behind.

I got my money. You ve got your money. We put IT in together, like I, that never felt like a thing that felt empowering to me, because I really wanted to be in the boat, so to speak.

And dividing those things, I think, sets up resentment and puts you on a different side from one another, combining, if you do IT in a way that's empowering, forces you to have, have conversations about money. And so we were always both working, both throw on our money into one big pot, both trying to figure this out. And then you started out army.

And what's interesting in a relationship is there is an implied power dynamic in terms of who's making more money. And when you were making more money, I felt like you had more power in the relationship. And then and i'm not saying that is right. I'm just saying it's this unspoken thing.

And in addition to the value that one might perceive themself to be bringing to the relationship.

yes, and we don't value .

psychologically .

or as a society, the role that a primary caregiver gives. There is a massive economic value to that, that is not credited on the baLance sheet of a relationship. And IT should be because if you don't do that, you do not value in the relationship the contribution that the other person is making by literally being home, taking care of things, making sure you're the stable person that is getting the groceries and doing the laundry ry and providing the care for children and that rock presence that you're talking about. And so we can ham acted together all the time.

And then when you went into the restaurant business, and this is really important to note that one of the desires that you had in your heart, when you went into the restaurant business, as you told me, that one of the reasons why you wanted to start a business in our community is because you grew up with a father that was never home. He was always on the road. He was always climbing latter.

He was always chasing the money in the career and had a very big careers, a result that you had never dead prison and that you hoped that by starting a small business in our community, you would actually be around more. Now i'm going to tell you, I kind of laugh behind your back because I like good. You have clearly never worked in a restaurant. I have been the front of the house, the back of the house, the fry cook. This when you think you're going .

to be around, yeah, your lady.

you should say something. But no, you ouldn't listen anyway. So I so when you end to the restaurant business, we were still in a state where the little bit of income you and your partner were taking from the restaurant as you are trying to get IT off the ground.

And as I was running, I was making about the same. And so we were even Steven. And then the financial crisis said, and the business started to struggle. And the fact that we had leverage ourselves. And by the way, that was a joint decision.

We made the decision that we would take out a home equity line, that we would max out credit cards, that we would liquidity for one k and the kid's college savings. We did that together. And when the crisis hit, you want to talk about a fricking storm, try experiencing the stress on your relationship when you can pay for the town soccer program for your kid, try.

Like I like struggling to get gas in the tank of the car checks bouncing over and over. And IT win wasn't even just payroll checks bouncing in the restaurant IT was you're not getting paid. And this is now two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight when the huge financial crisis and housing market turned upside down. And IT was just one title wave after the other. When we've I don't even know how the hell we made IT through that, like we were floating on shards of wood trying to keeps our children above the .

water and hold on to .

everything that we had worked so hard to build as IT appeared to be shattering around us. And I guess maybe we made IT through because we were both alcohol licks at the time and we're drunk when we were around each other. I mean, there were there were days where the kids would wake up on their own and come downstairs.

And i'm ashamed to say soyer are oldest is now twenty five, remembers this. And he would find Chris and I A sleep in the chairs in the living room because we had passed out from all the turban we had drink. And why were we drinking? Because we had a negative baLance in the checking account again, and we were racking up banking fees because the frickin .

checks kept bouncing .

like it's hard enough when you can actually clear check. But then the bank kits you with twenty five, fifty, seventy five dollars and the bills that SAT unopened on the counter.

evidently we made sure to have enough alcohol on the boat. And this .

always the budget man, you steal IT, i'm just getting, but where I am going with .

this is if .

we were gonna a keep the house and pay our bills, one of us had to do something. And you are not psychologically in fight mode. You are in freeze. And so I leveraged that rock bottom. And honestly, if i'm being honest, my anger at myself and at you for being in the situation, and I just became like, i'm thinking about the tasmanian devil, I I did whatever I had to do to make money.

And when, thankfully, I started to make money and things started to change, whether that was like the small radio show on the weekends, going to a sunday night show on w spatula, to a five day week show in orlando, to taking on odd jobs here in there, to all kinds of like just, yes, yes, yes, yes, you have the restaurant business. Pat padian, six months, couldn't afford two partners anyway. And in two thousand and fourteen, you became .

the primary .

parent and I became the bread winner. And IT was not something that you .

wanted to do.

I know IT was crushing for you to sit in the car and drop the kids off, or being the pickup line and feel like you had failed in your career while your wife was off, given another speech to try to pay off the debt and pay our bills, and that you really wrestled with that.

And I know that dynamic in our relationship swang in this really toxic direction, where because I was now making all the money and you felt like a failure, IT seemed like I had more power. and. The thing that and i'm pointing this out because I think a lot of couple struggle with what they do with their money and who makes the money and whether or not you get a vote or if your vote counts.

And what I personally found interesting as woman is that I started to take on the mindset of what I would believe is a very show, venison mail. I felt entitled to make the call because I was making the money. And if there's something that I would take back, it's the way that that power dynamic shifted our ability to truly be in the boat together, working together.

It's not that I didn't value everything that you were providing because I knew that I could not be on the road. I couldn't do what I was out in the world doing or make the money that we, we desperately needed without you at home, because I value our family more than anything. But IT is so sneaky how money and the power dynamic changes you.

As a couple, I have never understood how a relationship can survive without full transparency. What I love about how the universe are got, or whatever you believe shuffled the deck and how we ended up, is you never, ever, ever would have said, you know what, I think my calling is. I think my calling is to be the spiritual, or oc, for our family to be the world's most amazing parent, to my children to pursue a masters and spiritual psychology, to start a men's treat, to become a death toll.

You never would have found your actual path in life without the universe, just taking a sled hammer to what this idea that you should be, go climbing a ladder or making a lot of money. You have never been motivated by money. You don't care about IT.

You would live in a yt t. If I wanted to live in a yard, which I do not. I just want to go on the record and say we're not doing that. You can do that. You know i'll meet on the weekend um but you started the restaurant business because you thought they would allow you to be present with our kids and the irony is IT worked IT just didn't happen the way you thought I would but IT LED you where you were meant to go. And the beautiful thing that has happened in our marriage is that our kids have seen a relationship where we have constantly been having egging IT and switching rules, which opens up this possibility.

Think about who you could be or what your relationship could be, or the fact that a relationship that goes the distance require two people in the boat who both want to make IT to the end of the journey together. And that means sometimes you're behind the wheel, sometimes you're growing, sometimes you're bAiling, sometimes reading the map, sometimes you're below deck resting and taking turns. But there's lots of different positions that you have to play.

And i'm very proud of the fact that we have been passing the baton back in fourth and. I definitely could have done a Better job in my own kind of emotion management and really being more loving and supportive instead of frustrated and entitled during those years. But I always knew that I would never be able to do what I was doing without you and valued everything you were doing. It's an interesting thing that you bring up about the and the role win because unless you talk about IT with the person that you're with, you probably just assume. That you're on the same page about the value that you bring.

you're back to your torney itself? no. But I I just wanted to say that I I feel like it's an important distinction between power, as you mentioned a few times, and contribution because for any man out there listening, I. I didn't IT wasn't about power for me or authority IT was about this, this desire to want to contribute in what I thought was the only way I knew how. You know, you use the analogy of the boat and whether somebodies reading the map or bail on the water or rowing, that was that's what took us time, I think, to find out what ohh what constitutes contribution. That's worthy of the discussion getting clear on that power versus contribution.

Well, one thing for sure, if you ask either one of our daughters, they both say they want someone just like dad. Put a both on this.

You know how you would mention that one of the big lessons was about flowers, and we unpack that to talk about consideration and having other person in mind um and then we also were saying that one thing that you could think about doing is just think about yourself and what's something specific that your partner could do to make you feel considered and if the conversation about money. Had you think yourself, I really wish we were on the same page. I really wish we could your finances, I really wish the power dynamic was different between us related to money. That is one of those things that you can ask your partner to change and to Operate .

and away .

where they have you in mind. Being able to talk about money, being able to Operate in away with one another, where you feel considered, will you feel respected? I personally like think that's super important. And being comfortable going to your partner and putting in the category of flowers like this is something that is a big deal to me that I would really like to shift between us. And so I just wanted kind of bring that full circle as a very important thing because for us, IT was like A A silent thing in the background that built and built and built and cause I think, a lot of resentment and misunderstanding. And because we didn't talk about IT and when you don't talk about something, your emotions build up and your emotions start doing the talking for you.

That's music to my years, given that as a man, i've been often very good at holding all the emotions inside and saying very little. So excEllent point. malabanan. Okay, what is your third .

lesson in my code again? H, I love this one. I love this one um assume good intent, never forget the goodness inside the person that you chose to be with.

Like at our core, I believe people are good. And it's easy when you get caught up in the data day of your life and you let those little resentments build and you let the emotions bottle up. It's easy to forget who you actually committed to. And i'm just going to go on the record and assume that one of the reasons why you fell in love with the person that you fell in love with is because of the goodness inside of them and always reminding myself. About who you are and your true nature and the goodness that I know that is in you has been an amazing like pressure releasing inside of me to remind myself that you at your core, you are a very loving and kind and forgiving person, that who you are, and that's why I love you, and that even when you do things that just drive me crazy or make me angry or frustrated me, I always remind myself, for at least I can say, i've done so in the last couple years. That you're a good guy, you're a good human and IT makes IT helpful in our relationship to always remind myself of that and give you the benefit of the doubt.

That's a form of consideration that if the dishes left in the sink instead of going, what a selfish amErica that you stop and go, oh, ii, Betty was busy and I said, is gonna back to this or if you forgot to do something that you said you were going to do? Oh, I bet he just was running late and he meant to do IT like there's no ill intent and assuming good intent about the person that your committee is a skill and IT is one that will make your relationship last. Because when you give somebody else that kind of consideration, you give them the benefit of the doubt. You assume that they meant to do IT you assume something happened. There is no room, for example, because you've created a story that's positive and in support of the goodness of the other person and the goodness in your relationship, and that creates room for more goodness.

I think it's it's beautiful what you say, but I think it's hard for people to continue to assume you could assume good intent to paid in of time up. They couldn't do IT up whatever. Like, assume good, assume good.

I mean, eventually it's going to be like, fuck that. Like how do you? How do you get beyond that?

You taught me how to do this, to give you an example. So everybody these days gets a ton of carbon boxes delivered to their house. And I will unpack those cardboard boxes.

And I love on packing cardboard boxes. But you know what I hate. I hate to flat them.

Like I just, I hate to flat them. I'm just gonna right on the record. So I will untracked boxes. And then what I do, classic A D H D.

you walk away while .

I stack them like a tetris puzzle next to the door in our old house that used to be stacking them next to the staircase down to the garage um or launching them down the staircase where there would be a pile um and then I sometimes would stack them next to the door of the garage here now that we let in the mont and my intention was to come back and take them into the garage. I fully intended to do IT and you get so mad at me about these piles of cardboard boxes and the messes that I would create. And you are a logical person and you're very methodical and discipline and say you're like, I don't understand the logic ure.

how hard is IT to .

take a knife and slice through the tape and flattened sucker after you in packet, and then walk yourself to the garden, then put IT in the place like, how difficult is this? And so we would then get in this fight about this, and IT went on for a while, and then you SAT me down. And this is how you deal with behaviour that actually isn't okay.

This is how you get somebody to develop a skill that is important because you, you kept asking me to take care of the boxes and take care of the boxes, and I kept meaning to, but then I wouldn't. And then finally, you SAT me down, and i'll never forget this. You said, ml, every time I see a carboy box stack by the door, I see you giving me the medal finger.

Those cardboard boxes have become a symbol that I am the made. And the things that I need you to do don't actually matter to you. They have now become a form of disrespect, and IT makes me feel sad.

And when you explained the impact of my behavior on you, those cardboard boxes took on an entirely different meaning. Because to me, IT doesn't matter if I flatten the boxes now, or I flatten them tonight, or I flatten them tuesday morning. But IT matters more than anything that my behavior is not having a bad impact on you. And so when you explained the impact to you, you didn't make me wrong, you didn't call me a slab, you didn't do anything, which would have only have made me defensive and argue for why i'm right. Ba ba, when you actually just said I would like to explain email, the impact of your behavior .

on me .

IT elevated the conflict into a much more important thing than what we are arguing about. I think that's the truth about every single petty little thing that couples argue about. IT sounds about the thing. It's about not feeling considered or respected or being treated with kindness for consideration. Good job, Christopher Robin, what's your final pista was done that you've learned after thirty years?

Well, my third lesson learned, if you will, particularly in our dynamic and through all the. All the years and the tornado s and bad storms on the ocean, so to speak. I you would mention something earlier about energy and being in touch with somebody's energy, and I had never really consider that until now.

I can remember whether somebody encourage me to do this or or where I got IT. But I just I had this experience of us. But not necessarily being roommates together, but just two ships passing like just you were here, I was there yeah we were rolling together and. And this wasn't too long .

ago either. So I got the dogs, who guys we like that?

Yeah and I just the there there was still this degree to which I fell a disconnection even though I think we were very much a line and on board and in communication, you know growing at the sam Epace, so to speak but the there was a there were .

these .

moments that were missing and um that's when the act of stopping you in the hallway or in the kitchen or wherever we were, in fact, passing by one another and putting my hands on your shoulders and even just ten seconds looking into your eyes. For me was a complete game changer. Like I, all the other love languages, you know, acts of kindness and gifts and touch and all these things, yeah, they make a difference.

But this concept of eye contact took on a new meaning for me. At least for you and I, and often how quickly things are moving, like being able to just stop for ten or fifteen seconds and do nothing but look into your eyes. That's I mean, that is Prices for me .

is the recent thing like literally, I will come down from this, the office black above the garage, come storming through the kitchen to make a smoothly because I arise, I haven't eaten and i'll walk past Chris, and he will literally put his hands on his shoulder, my shoulders, and stop me. And I kind of have this experience like, what, you know, what do you really talk about? And you just look me in the eyes, then you smile and IT.

Is this beautiful thing that you've recently started doing? I love IT, and I think the bigger point is being present in these micro pe moments with one another. Like almost like this habit that you've developed for this practice that you've introduce into our marriage literally just this year. That reminds me we're in the boat, same boat that allows me to see the goodness. And you I love that you're claiming something that really refuse you and IT definitely does the same thing for me.

Yeah I I the this idea of feeling. Are having the experience of seeing and hearing you with no words. No, I do that because, yes, I want to see your eyes, but it's not for something that i'm looking for as much for myself as I want to have the experience of you feeling, seen and heard and sometimes just ten seconds. And looking in your eyes is sometimes all I can get, but it's, it's powerful.

terrible.

Now I have joking. But seriously, it's those little, as you say, micro moments. Are there everything .

I will say? This is something you should deal because a lot of times when you hug your partner, your kind of hugging is agreeing and then you're walking right past.

agreed thousand percent.

And have you ever noticed, like when you're hugging somebody.

one of you has a mount, you're like OK. It's done and it's very different than no kissing. No hugging, certainly a touch like that's why I put my hands on your shoulder so I can get the touch piece yeah so I can w me.

I like, literally stop. We have a moment. It's like a refueling. You know, we were just recorded an episode and talking about the fact that when a child runs into a playground, you'll see them run back to their caregiver. And that is a very powerful moment. That psychologist is called refueling because you're running back to somebody who's safe and grounding and comforting and then bomb you're after the swing set again.

I love that work because it's exactly what IT is like getting hooked up and getting a little a little injection .

of connection and is very intimate ah and you can do IT anywhere. It's so cool. I really steal that.

When you walk into your home tonight, I want you to put your hands on your partner or shoulder, and just literally, you don't have to, you don't pull me close, you just our arms distance away, hands on their shoulders, and just look in the eye and then smiling, not or whatever. And then you can end up with a kiss. You can end up with a hug.

You can end up by just saying I love you. You can end up by saying, I just love your eyes and then that's that. And IT is a refueling. It's like, so cal, I am so excited for the next thirty years. You're the best the best rock there ever was.

Well, i'm excited to be working in your toronto for thirty years coming.

Oh my god, i'm so proud of us that we made in the car.

Too, and i'm proud .

you for listening to something that could truly change your life and your relationships. And in case no one else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a Better life. And there is no doubt that relationships are the most meaningful and powerful aspect of your life. Like when this is over, you want people .

around you, and we'll .

be there if you really make the commitment to work on IT. And I truly hope that some of the things that Christ and i've shared today will help you create relationships that you deserve, because having loving relationships around you really is amazing, and it's within your control already. I'll be waiting for you in the next episode.

Six, seven, eight, nine, ten. Okay, you rope. So I Christi's cry like crazy. Christopher Robin is my husband and got, when you walk into your home tonight, I want you to put your shoulders on your airport story. I'm doing this from.

Seriously crashed .

new crush IT, thank you so much. So great. Maybe we should have Chris guest and do some.

Oh, and one more thing I know, this is not a blue per. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers right? And what I need to read you.

This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a license therapies, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, therapist or other qualified professional.

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