Communicate with Confidence: The Blueprint for Mastering Every Conversation
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Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Oh my gosh, I have been so stressed out. I'm trying to finish my next book and get that manuscript turned in, and I'm going to tell you more about that another time. But as the deadline approaches...

I have been constantly snapping at my poor family. Does that happen to you? You know, you get stressed at work or about something else going on in your life and you take it out on the people that you love. I know you don't mean to. I don't mean to. And now I'm constantly saying, I'm sorry, I was such a jerk. I didn't mean to use that tone of voice. I'm just so stressed. I thought that was a good apology.

But then I see this video online of a guy who's sitting in the front seat of his car, and he was talking about bad apologies. And in the video, he's like, blaming your bad behavior on your stress, that is a bad apology. Whoa, he called me out, and he also gave amazing advice. So the next time someone treats you poorly and blames it on stress, this is what Jefferson Fisher says you need to say back.

You're going to calmly and quietly respond with, you don't need to apologize for what your stress has done to you, but you do need to apologize for what it did to me.

Whoa. You don't need to apologize for what your stress has done to you, but you do need to apologize for what your stress did to me. Tell you what, I tracked down the man in the front seat of that car. His name is Jefferson Fisher, and he is here in the studio today to talk all things communication, from bad apologies to speaking with confidence to learning how to stand your ground.

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limited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash Mel today. Hey, it's your friend Mel. I am so excited that you're here. It's always such an honor to spend time with you and to be together. And if you're brand new, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast family. I also want to take a moment and just acknowledge you for taking time to listen to something that can truly help you live a better life.

So I was just telling you that I have been super stressed because I've got some big deadlines with my next book coming out. And look, I'm human. I can try my best, but there are days where I still take my stress out on my family. And when I snap at them, I'm always quick to apologize. And I'm always saying, I'm really sorry. I didn't mean to be a jerk. I didn't mean to use that tone of voice.

I was just so stressed. Well, according to Jefferson Fisher, who is in our Boston studios today, blaming your bad behavior on stress is a bad apology. There's a better way for you to communicate. And you and I are going to learn how to be a better communicator from Jefferson Fisher. Let me tell you a little about him. He's a trial lawyer who has millions of followers online who turn to him every single day for his powerful and poignant communication tips.

Jefferson says, what you say is who you are. You can learn how to be more articulate, confident, and persuasive.

And you know what I love most about Jefferson is that the videos that millions of people are watching every day, he's making them in the front seat of his car in between court cases and meetings with his clients. His advice is simple, packs a powerful punch. So I tracked him down. And Jefferson has put his cases on hold. He's flown here from Texas to be in our Boston studios to tell you and me exactly what to say and when you should say nothing at all.

Jefferson, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Mel Robbins, thank you for having me. Oh my gosh, I'm so thrilled that you are here. Where I would really love to start is, Jefferson, could you tell the person listening how their life might change if they take everything that you're about to share with us today to heart and they apply it in their life? They will have the power to change everything.

everything they could want to about their life, their relationships, and where they want to go. Because for the vast majority of people, and especially any person who listens right now, what you say is who you are to people. That's the only time they will experience who you are. You can't be a kind person if you don't say kind things.

When you hear somebody say, oh, that person was nice. Well, what you mean is they said nice things to me. Same thing if somebody's rude. You hear something you don't like. So it's the power to communicate. And the tips that I give are short, concise of how they can be better and improve the next conversation that they have. I freaking love it. I've never heard anybody describe this.

the power of your words and the way in which you communicate, that the things that you say is who you are. It's your entire, it's the only way they'll experience you. They might see that kind deed. The vast majority of the time, they're going to only hear what you say. So you find that the power to communicate is that you compress your entire personality into just what they hear you say.

Huh. Now, I think everybody who is either like shy or a little insecure or feels maybe like they're an introvert is now like, oh, gosh, because I keep my mouth shut. Can anybody learn to be a better communicator? Anybody can. It doesn't matter if you say two words wrong.

20 words. Often you can say a lot with less than you can with more words. So it's not about, oh, I'm an introvert. I'm too shy. I can never. That's not the point. More words is not better communication. Oh, I love that too. I'm going to learn a lot from you because I tend to be somebody who just vomits it all out. And I feel like I could learn how to say less.

Well, that's not a bad thing. Sometimes it's not bad to say more either. All right. We'll see what you think about my communication style. I'm curious because I love following you online. Millions of people have discovered you and love watching you as you sit in the front seat of your car. You're squeezing this advice in in between cases that you're doing in court, in between meetings with clients. How did you get started doing this? And why do you think millions of people are following you and loving your advice?

Well, thank you. I left a big defense firm, that big law, and I just, I wasn't happy anymore. I was a partner there and I went from having a team to just being by myself with my laptop and coffee shops.

And I started thinking, well, I need to get on social media. And then that quickly turned into, I feel like I'm selling myself. You see all these billboards with personal injury attorneys. I thought, that's not who I want to be. What can I do to just be a light in the world? What's my legacy going to be? And I guide my principals on, is this something my kids would be proud of?

So that really hits home for me of what kind of legacy can I leave even if I'm not here?

And so I decided I was going to teach people on something that I feel I know better than anybody in my world, and that's how to communicate the lessons that I've learned. So I got my phone in my car and made my first How to Argue Like a Lawyer video. Wow. And the rest is history. And the rest is history. So it's been almost two years. And millions and millions of followers online. Yeah. And why do you think people follow you? The videos are short. Uh-huh.

They're very succinct and they give them that light bulb moment of, oh, I could do that. What I talk about is very practical. What I talk about is not hypothetical. It's not based on some study. It is in the trenches. It's real conflict that we deal with from imposing attorneys to having to argue before judges. You have your own clients that may or may not agree with you. So it's

communicating at all different levels that's very practical and relatable and giving it to them in a way that they're like, hey, this guy, he's an attorney, but yet he's in his car and he's talking to me like I'm a real human. It's not that hard. Well, what I love about what you're saying, and this is true, is that most of us, I believe, especially when we are either uncomfortable or we have to have a difficult conversation, we focus on

this idea that you have to win. And a lot of people see lawyers and they think, oh, it's all about arguing and winning. And you forget the fact that no, you actually have to navigate judges and juries and court officers and clerks and other attorneys that you're going to see. And the ability to have people listen is just as important. What do you think most of us get wrong about how we communicate?

that arguments are something to win, not something to unravel. I teach that arguments are not in the conversation. And what gets worse is when you pull your way and I pull my way.

versus looking at it and saying, help me with the knot. How can we unravel this? How can we smooth it out? Never win an argument. If somebody's telling you or teaching you or you read some book on how to win every argument, they're just selling you something. Okay, then let me give you an example. You ready? I'm ready. Last night we go out to dinner. It is my mother-in-law's 87th birthday. Happy birthday. Yes, happy birthday to Judy. And so we're out with the family and I of course have a conversation that happened at the table

I said something that I immediately wanted to take back. My husband and I are now leaving. We've all been there, right? You have stuck foot in mouth. Your partner is now angry with you. We get into the car. I was not driving. Somebody else was driving. So we hop into the Uber and Chris turns to me. He's like, why did you have to say that? Yeah. And so can you explain in this situation that I think we can all relate to?

where now you are about to have an argument with somebody and you are describing that arguments are like a knot.

So what do I do in this situation where I'm about to go into full-on defend me mode? How do I get out of this mess? Yeah, well, sometimes it just takes a big shovel. But anytime there's miscommunication, it is because what is sent is not what is received. So what you thought you said is not what they heard. And often you're just on different frequencies.

If I were to turn my radio to 90s country, which I love, and you turned it on, I don't know, let's say 2000s R&B, you'd be going, this sounds great. And I'm like, no, this sounds great. And we're still rocking to our own sounds and we're not on the same channel. And so when you're in that backseat and you're talking with Chris and he's going, why'd you say that? The question is, what did you hear?

And so it's that understanding of what did you hear when I said that? Because I know what I meant. What did you hear? And so it's this pushing of when it's only going how you say it in your head, nobody else is hearing that. What did you hear? Right. That's amazing. Because the second he said, why did you say that?

I felt attacked. Of course. And as I sit here in the like bright daylight, right? And I've got distance from it. I don't actually think I put my foot in my mouth. I know what my intention was. You know. Yes. And so the next time you're in an argument with somebody and that knot starts to build and you can feel yourself yanking on it because you go into a mode of defending yourself. Mm-hmm.

If somebody says to you, why did you say that? Or they attack you on something, your response is, what did you hear? Exactly.

Wow. Well, and to your defense, to ask somebody why you said that, that why word puts everybody on the defense because it sounds like you're attacking, you're undermining their credibility. Okay, so let's reverse the rules here. Let's say my husband Chris says something really stupid or like, you know, that I'm like, why would he say something like that? If I'm now the one

And in the car with him. And he has said something at a party or like around family that I just wanted to reach out and choke him. Obviously, I wouldn't. But what would you say instead of why would you say that?

I would use the word what instead of starting with why, which puts you on the defensive. Because when you say why, the first thing you want to say is because I said so, that's why. That autonomy that you feel. But instead, it's the what. What was going through your head when that happened? Or what made you say this? It's that curiosity of, I'm just curious of how you got there. Instead of the pushing the why. Why'd you do this? Why'd you do it that way?

I love that because you're right. One is judgment and the other is curiosity. Right. One is poking and the other is leaning in. It's the whole student versus teacher mentality. Instead of feeling like you're having to push, you're having something to learn about it. No wonder so many people follow you. What is the secret to getting better at talking to people? Not really a secret as much as it is a process of wanting to express yourself in a way of saying something

what you mean more. Because often you want to say the thing, but you're hesitant about it. You're not sure exactly how you want to put it across. So you feel like you need to kind of dance around it. Okay. And often you just need to jump right in. That sounds scary for a lot of people. It is scary, but I mean, you cold plunge. It's worse when you go inch by inch. So can you give us an example, especially as you're listening to Jefferson?

If you have a conversation or there's something that you wish you could communicate more effectively, how do you do it? Let's put it in terms of a difficult conversation for them. So whoever's listening, I want you to imagine you are about to walk into somebody's office and there's going to be that hard conversation in the room. And let's just say it's a topic of something that is bad news. Put your mind wherever it is.

You walk in and somebody goes, so how are you? How are you lately? You've been good? Pickleball games? All right. Well, that's good. Well, your family's good? Well, listen, hey, I have something that we've been talking about. And listen, I know it's not that big of a deal. And I want you to understand. You're making me panic as I'm listening to you, Jefferson. Because of that fear of the unknown, Mel, versus let's say the different scenario. You come in, say, thank you for meeting with me.

well, I have bad news. You deliver that bad news versus this isn't going to be a fun conversation. You say that. This isn't going to be fun for us to talk about. This isn't my favorite conversation I have. You prepare them for it. Often you're afraid to disappoint people. And what that really is, is you don't believe that they have enough emotional resiliency to handle it. So you need to

to baby them, to tiptoe into the water instead of dipping right in. People will admire you more. They will see you as somebody with more respect and more confidence every time when you say what you want to say fully. Wow. Do you do that with your kids too?

As much as I can, but of course, I'm in a very loving way. Gotcha. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense because I think a lot of the advice is, and I will admit, I think I've even given this advice in the past, is like, okay, well, make a sandwich. Got to say something positive, and then you stick in the meat, which is the negative part, and people see it coming. Yeah, I don't like the sandwich.

Okay, you just go right for the meat. Well, you can put in some bread, but I feel like it's disingenuous to make them have to go, "What do you mean? What are you saying? What are you...?" You kind of have to just sit there and wait and it's painful rather than going

right into it. There's still a place to be kind. There's still a place to be very direct. And how you talk to your kids depends on your kid's age. I mean, how I speak to my four and six year old is different how my father spoke to me when I was 16, when I would come to him and complain and he'd go, you don't have to like it. You just need to understand it. Right. And it's that whole different mentality of I can deliver all the truth and still be kind.

I want to pull that thread for a minute because one of the reasons why we do not communicate directly with people is because we believe that if somebody can't handle the truth or if they're going to have an emotional reaction or if they're going to feel like upset or disappointed in themselves, that somehow it's kinder to avoid it or soft pedal it or not be as direct.

And what you teach in a very effective way is that it's actually one of the cruelest things you can do to somebody.

to lead them on, to not tell them the truth, to lie to their face and treat them one way, but then go behind closed doors and actually complain about what they're doing and not tell them. - Wholeheartedly. - And that somewhere along the line, we have confused kindness with actually lying to people. And that's actually cruel. - In one of the worst ways, especially for people that you love,

Whenever you skirt around the truth, whenever you come at a conversation in a very indirect way, you are saying to them, I don't believe you're emotionally strong enough to handle this.

Versus me saying, Mel, I'm telling you this because I know you can handle it. Now you strengthen them. And often what you say, you're giving them the armor to handle it. You're giving them the backpack for the trip that they're about to be on. Oh, I love that. And you know what else I loved is I love that thing you added there.

So I want to make sure that as you're listening, you are sticking these takeaways into that backpack that Jefferson just alluded to. And so you said, first of all, that you just go right in, like just jump right into the deep end of the pool. Don't be tap dancing around the topic and delay getting to it. This is not going to be an easy conversation. But then you just added this thing that I loved, which is, but I'm telling you this,

because I know you can handle it and I want you to hear the truth or I want you to know how I feel about this or you don't have to like it, but you need to know this. And you just lifted me up a little bit when you said, I'm telling you this because I think you can handle it. And that makes me go, yeah, I think I can too. So lay it on me, even though it's going to suck. Yeah, exactly. You have to, in many ways, what you say to them is going to give them the value that you want them to hold.

So I'm telling you this because I know you believe in transparency. I'm coming to you with this and I know it's not fun to talk about. You're somebody who can handle it. I know you have big shoulders. You tell them the quality that you want them to have and they will rise up to it. They'll stand up straight into it.

Oh, I love that. You tell someone the qualities that you want them to have and people rise up into it. Every time. When you say something to them, for example, let's say, Mel, I know that you're somebody that takes value in people's words or that you value patience. They'll go, oh yeah. And in their mind, they're thinking, yeah, oh yeah, I'm patient. Yeah. Hey, Greg, I'm telling you this because I know you have an open mind.

All of a sudden, Greg's like, I do have an open mind. Yes, I do. And so it is, you tweak the, you can do that same thing when you walk into a room. So if you don't feel comfortable saying it directly about the person, you can say what this room is. What do you mean? What does that mean? You walk in and say, I want to make sure that this room is one that I can be entirely truthful in.

So where would you use that? Like at work? Yeah. Let's say you're in somebody's office. Okay. It doesn't have to be like the room of truth. I'm just saying wherever you are. You say it to yourself or you say that? Say that out loud. I want to make sure that this is a place of honesty. I want to make sure that I'm speaking in a place that's free to say what I need to say. Are we good with that? And they go, yeah.

I love this because, you know, in lawyer speak, you're basically leading a witness. Oh, yeah. But it works like a charm. And I've never really thought about that as a strategy to tell people how I want you to react to something. And you add that on to what I call a frame in the conversation. So you tell somebody...

You go a step further, and that is you tell them how you want the conversation to end. Okay, so tell me this. So let's say you made a comment at dinner. Yes, last night. Okay, yes. So it's this concept of you tell them what you want to talk about. You tell them how you want the feel after you end the conversation, and you get their agreement to it. You'd step into it and say, I'd like to talk to you about a comment you made last night at dinner.

And I want to walk away from that conversation knowing that this isn't a topic you're going to bring up again in front of other people. That sound good? That sounds like I'm in trouble, Justin Jefferson. So now I'm literally going, I'm not going to bring it up ever again. But you get what I mean. Or let's say a comment that you made at a meeting last week, and I want to make sure that you and I are on the same wavelength the next meeting that we have. Is that

Does that work? And they go, that works. And now you have a frame and now you know exactly what the conversation is about and what it's not about. Because if you talk about everything, then you really talk about nothing. You've had those meetings where, all right, everybody, we got a lot to do today. We have a lot to talk about. And you leave those meetings feeling like you- Like every meeting. You didn't talk about anything. Yes, that's every meeting that I lead. So now I'm going to use your technique. Question for you. How do you talk to somebody?

that you don't like. Nobody wants to feel fake, but what do you do? Well, if you're in a position where you have to talk to somebody you don't like, that does not give you any reason to be less likable. It's that mentality of...

Don't argue with a fool because onlookers won't know the difference. Forgot who said that quote, but it's that idea of if you're talking to somebody you don't like, well, you're going to talk to them as if you do. How do you do that? You just be who you are. Understand that you're not trying to convince the other person to like you or convince yourself to like the other person. You're convincing the people around you.

because they're watching you. They're watching how you talk to somebody. They're watching how you treat other people. And if you need to just go neutral, just stick with basic facts instead of trying to get cute and make these offhand comments and roll your eyes and cross your arms.

Instead, just be very neutral in the conversation. They ask you what time it is instead of going, well, you know, if you were here, so you don't got to watch. Okay. Instead of doing that, you just tell them the time. Be very quick with it. Get in, get out. You don't need to have more conversation than you need to, but you never want to give somebody a reason, especially somebody who's not in the conversation, not to like you. How do you handle somebody that kind of belittles you? They're like,

picking on your weight or they're constantly like, are you still single? Like, you know how people, like especially people that you're close with have a way of belittling you? Right. What do you do in those situations? When somebody is belittling you or giving you a insult and a hurtful comment, you make them say it again because what they're hoping to do in that belittling comment is get that reaction out of you.

And instead you find a way to take all the fun out of it. So when you ask them to repeat what they said, you're not giving them that hit of dopamine that they were expecting from your reaction. They're not getting that response time from you. Instead, you're delaying that gratification for them. Then it's just not worth it. Then it's just not fun. And so when you ask them to repeat it, to say, I need you to say that again,

We need to role play this. Sure. I'm trying to think of a scenario. Like you just said right there, you're still single. I need you to repeat that. Yeah. So exactly. I'm not going to want to say that again because now that spotlight is on me. And then also what you'd lead up with that is you ask questions of intent. For example, did you say that to hurt me? And now it's this mirror that they feel like, why did I say that?

Oh, okay. And then they start to backtrack. Then you don't have to say anything. So if somebody says to you, oh, so you're still single? I need you to say that again. Most likely they're not going to say that again. But if they do, then you can even repeat what they said. I'm still single. That's what you asked me? And all of a sudden they realize this isn't fun. They're not going to ask that kind of thing again.

Or you just ask that question of, did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me? Oh, no, no, no, no. I didn't say that. What I meant was, and all of a sudden they're backing away because they know you're going to stand your ground. Wow. This is like very eye-opening because I can see both situations where I need to use it and I can see situations where...

I probably say things, and I'm thinking particularly to my adult kids, that probably feels belittling. I can think about like our daughter out in Los Angeles, and every time I see her, she's wearing a piece of clothing that I don't recognize. And so I think to myself, and oftentimes I will say, is that new? And I'm thinking in my mind,

Where do you get the money for this? You know, like that kind of thing. And then she's like, yeah, I thrifted it. And there's this little tiff thing. But if she were to say to me. Yeah, if she were to ask you. Are you trying to embarrass me? Yeah, exactly. Are you trying to insinuate something? Are you trying to say something that you're not wanting to tell me? Because you're right. The question is what I'm saying on the surface. But what I'm actually accusing her of is not being responsible with her money.

It's that mirror. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And so it takes away the power of their insult. Wow. When you can take all the fun out of it, you take all the oxygen out of their room and they realize that they're not going to be able to control you with that reaction that they were hoping to get from you. How do you respond to disrespect? A lot of silence. So often if you just wait 10 seconds, you're going to add distance between what they said and how you're going to respond.

Because what they're wanting when somebody's disrespectful is the same way with belittling. They're saying this to get something out of you. Because in that moment, they're feeling something, whether it's a fear, an insecurity, whatever it is, you're not going to deliver on that same plane that they are. You're not going to be on that same level. So if somebody says something disrespectful, you give enough silence to make sure that it's a little awkward. And then you're going to say something to the effect of, that's below my standard for a response.

And then all of a sudden they feel like the dynamic has been flipped. Something as simple as that. All of a sudden you're now making it clear that what you just said was beneath me and I don't respond to things that are beneath me in that way.

And so now you're taking control of it. Now you're leaning into it. What they thought was meant as a disrespect, they're now understanding that they're in the wrong place. I was with somebody yesterday who had just visited their mother. And I said to her, you know, like, how did it go? And she said, well, it was fine, but it's my mother. And the thing that drives me crazy is she is extremely disrespectful to anybody that is

waiting on us at a restaurant, like so much so that the owner came over and said something to her. Is there a way to respond when someone else is throwing a fit or is being disrespectful? Is there something that you can say to somebody in that situation?

- Depends how your relationship is with that person. I would advise that whoever they're disrespecting, you don't join in it and you make it clear that that is not your behavior. So you're gonna be a person that is kind to this person. So I've had it before, my grandfather came with me to Walmart.

This is a terrible time. He was in a bad mood and he was crotchety to everybody we talked to. But I was the one that was, thank you so much for helping us. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Being overly, hey, I understand. Thank you. And then you have that conversation. I had to have that conversation with my grandfather. How did you do that? I had to put a boundary, a very firm boundary of, if this is the way you're going to talk to people, I can't come with you. If you don't change...

the tone in which you're talking to people, "Papa, I can't, I can't come." And so it very was, what am I saying? You're not being respectful to people. Yes, I am. I would not be telling you this if you had been respectful to people. It's the people you love and often you have to be their biggest mirror of protecting them also for how other people see them. And so I love my grandfather. I want other people to love him.

And that means I also have to make sure that I need to prepare him in a loving way of being very direct. This is how you're talking to people. Has he changed? Yes. Wow. We also just don't go to Walmart. So...

Jefferson, the next question I want to ask you is how you can communicate in a way that everybody can understand you. But I got to take a quick break. So why don't you think about that while the person listening listens to a word from our sponsors. Don't you dare go anywhere. We have so many more incredible takeaways from the amazing Jefferson Fisher. Stay with us.

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Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. You and I are here with the amazing Jefferson Fisher. I love the specific takeaways that he's teaching us about how you can become a better communicator. So Jefferson, what are two ways that you can express your thoughts and feelings so that everyone can understand you better? It's simple and it's silly. It's so simple. It's just saying I feel instead of I think I'm

It is, I feel, if that is a feeling that you actually have. In other words, separating the person from the problem. For example, let's say you need to criticize a proposal that somebody had or a presentation. - Okay. - Instead of using the word you with it, your presentation, that's gonna get them defensive. Instead, make it a third person, the proposal, the presentation. The presentation could benefit from a few changes.

instead of your proposal wasn't that great. So you find ways of objectifying the, you're separating the person from the problem itself. So that's a way of expressing how you feel about a certain thing. Can I stop you right there? Of course. Because I immediately see an application as a parent or as a roommate.

Where as a parent, personally, I will throw myself under the bus here. I have never done that. Your room is a mess. Your stuff is everywhere. It's accusation, accusation, accusation. So how would you use this technique? Yeah.

To be more effective at communicating when you're talking to kids or you're talking to somebody that you live with and you want to use this strategy of removing the kind of you're wrong. Right. From the thing that you want them to do. Can I give the listeners a thought?

Absolutely. You can do whatever you want. So let's say, well, you and I are at a table right now, Mel. And let's say you and I are disagreeing about something. Okay. And in the middle of the room, let's just put this as the problem. Okay. This is the problem. This is how I see the problem. Okay. You're going to argue, this is how you see the problem. Right. Great. Now, the issue between us is not each other.

It's the problem. But in the real conversation, it's hard to get out of that. Instead, it's me pulling my chair and say, Mel, come over here. Come sit next to me. Let's talk about this problem. What are we going to do about this? So instead of your room's not clean, I see the room still isn't clean. What should we do about it? It's that idea of trying to get them to, let's look at the problem together. How do you find ways to...

That's what I mean by separating the person from the problem. Instead of getting onto you and saying, "You're lazy. You don't understand. You're so stupid. You're such an idiot." Instead of that, the problem is the problem on the table. Come sit next to me and let's talk about the problem. And now instead of opponents, we're teammates.

Your kids are screwed. I mean, you are. I had this whole visual, as you were saying this, of me like frustrated, yelling or stressed or exacerbated about like the pile of laundry or the state of the room or whatever it is, and then making a fuss about the problem.

Which only puts somebody on the defensive. Every time. Versus, like, imagine if you're standing in front of the kitchen sink with your family, or you're standing in front of the living room with your roommate, right? And you're like, this room's pretty messy. What should we do about it?

Exactly. Completely different approach. Without a doubt. And it's this idea of having kind of a need check of saying, let's take a time out. I want to make sure that I have time with y'all to do X activities. We also have a need to do the dishes. I need help with that. Or I have a need for your room to be clean. I have a need for this house to be clean. What's your need?

How can we help with that? So when you use the word help, people love to be helpful. This ability to, instead of just attacking them, that you don't understand, you don't get it, you're lazy or you don't care. Those are all words that just cut for no reason. When your problem is not them, the problem is the issue.

Wow. You could use this with anything. Anything. You could use this if somebody's playing too much video games. You could use this if somebody's not taking care of themselves. The problem isn't the person. It's the issue that is bothering you and this need that you have to see somebody either doing better or to see the house picked up or to see people helping out. That's freaking genius. I'm a little concerned because...

Given that I'm a talker, it's easy for me to take this advice and just go, blah, blah. Like, I can apply it immediately because I am not uncomfortable talking to other people. And I haven't had social anxiety since law school. But there are a ton of people that listen who do. And I can think of a particular friend of mine who is so amazing. And the second she's around other people,

She just kind of clams up. Do you have any specific strategies or advice for somebody who would like to be better about just speaking and feeling comfortable

more confident about it or feeling like I can display authority a certain way if there are certain phrases or strategies? How do you coach people in becoming more comfortable in that regard? - I coach people the same way I coach my legal clients. - Okay. - And I walk them through a series of steps. 'Cause you know as well as I do,

When we send somebody out to be cross-examined, we're giving them up to the wolves in many ways. I mean, their credibility, you have somebody who wants to hurt their credibility. There's somebody who wants to prove them wrong, call them a liar. So how do you equip them with the armor to take that on? Some of the basics of what I talk about is I want them to feel that they can say things very succinctly, meaning,

Often people who are nervous to talk, have that social anxiety, they say too much, then they felt like they didn't say anything at all afterwards. And that just means they're watering down what they're saying. Okay. Let's put this in a scenario.

Okay, so sorry to pause the email, but I have this, well, I mean, it's not really this thing, but it's, okay, so essentially what I really want to say is this isn't really something I'm too, too comfortable with, you know, but I mean, that is what you see the 99% of. Yes. The 1% says, takes a breath, lets their breath be the first word that they say and says, this is not something I'm comfortable with.

Period. You see how different it is? The same thing, same, I mean, it's the same objective. One is watered down. The other is served to you straight.

And so you find ways to eliminate the water from your drink, so to speak. You got to get rid of all the ice cubes, the over apologizing, the putting your words down before you even get them out. That's where you experience real growth and real change in your sentences. I want to make sure.

that as you were listening to Jefferson, you actually heard that. Because the single most important thing that you said was taking a breath is the first word. Exactly. And so if you're somebody that...

just opens your mouth and all kinds of stuff starts coming out. And then you start to, of course, feel more anxious because you've lost control of what you're saying. And then that just makes you keep going. And then you get flustered and then your face turns red. And then now you're like, I'm never talking again. And I didn't even say what I meant to say. Your breath is the first word. And then you're coaching us to really think about

what do you actually want to say? And so for somebody that has a hard time in a social setting,

and you are walking into a party, you don't know a lot of people. You're walking into a networking meeting, you don't know a lot of people. And you want to prepare yourself to be able to say something. Is there an opening line or a way that you recommend that people start to just practice the art of just talking to other people? 'Cause a lot of people find it very challenging to just strike up a conversation with someone.

Yeah, that is difficult. I would say that just focus on one person. Okay. Even though it's a room of plenty, you can be in a room and feel like you talk to everybody, but you just scratch the surface. Trade that for a real conversation with just one person.

So there's plenty of times where you've left a meeting or you left an event and you go, man, I really like this person who I got to spend a quality six minutes with versus just a bunch of pleasantries of, oh, hey, how you doing? How's your kids? We should get together. And you never get together. Right. So I would tell them one thing.

Quantity does not equal quality when it comes to networking or any big rooms like that. It's not how it should work. Just focus on one person. Two, if you want to break the ice about something, you can always start with something of just how they're doing in their life, what they're excited about, what they're looking forward to. When you ask the just, "How are you?" people talk about the past. They rarely talk about the future. The future is a lot more exciting

Because then you can go about something. People typically tend to speak ill of what's been going on. They're bad on it. They're more negative on it. They're typically more positive about the future. Oh, that's a great tip. So you take a breath and then you ask somebody, so what are you excited about or why are you here? What would you say if you were walking into a networking meeting? I would say, what are you most excited about today? Something as simple as that. Wow. Well, I'm most excited about talking to you, Jefferson. Yeah, same here.

I love that tip. And I know as you're listening, you are loving everything that Jefferson is sharing with you as well. And speaking of sharing, while you listen to a short word from our sponsors, take a minute and just share this episode with somebody who can use all of these amazing strategies that Jefferson is teaching us today. And don't you dare go anywhere because Jefferson and I, we will be waiting for you after a short break.

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Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins, and I am loving the time that you and I are spending together with Jefferson Fisher. Jefferson, one of my favorite videos of yours is where you give advice about answering the question, how are you? I mean, you hear it every day. It's the first thing we tend to ask anybody. You can handle that question a lot better if instead of answering that question, talking about the past. In other words, typically people like to say, I'm good, I'm fine, and it's been okay today. Or the...

another day in paradise kind of thing that you hear in the, living the dream, is to talk about what you're excited about. Instead of being backward looking, look forward. You tell them what you're looking forward to. I'm looking forward to seeing my kids today. I'm excited about the game on Friday. If you talk about the future, it's always a lot more exciting. And also, don't be afraid to be truthful. So if somebody

somebody's asking you how you are instead of just saying, oh, I'm actually doing really bad. It's okay to say, I'm just feeling a little overcast today. You put it in terms of the weather.

Oh, it's a lot easier for people that you don't have to worry about the little details. You don't have to worry about the little complexities of, do I need to explain to them everything that's happening that day? Just put it in terms of the weather. That's kind of an overcast day for me. It's a sunny day. Bad thunderstorms for me today. Find different ways to talk about the weather and instantly they know how you're doing.

That's really cool. I'm realizing that I'm a massive oversharer. So when somebody asks me, how are you? I go into a diatribe of information that they don't need. Well, it's not that they don't need. It's just oversharing can be a hindrance in the long term. It often stems from what I've seen with clients is this need to feel believed. In other words,

You feel like they're not buying all what you're saying, so you need to say more so that they know how knowledgeable you are. You know how much you know. But the weird thing about that is typically the more you say something, the less it appears you know about it. So the more words it takes to tell the truth, the more it sounds like a lie.

And so you have to be careful about oversharing. And what I like to tell my clients is instead of being a waterfall, be a well, you know, be the place that they can draw information from rather than feeling like you have to overwhelm them and put them on the life raft.

Jefferson, you just changed my life. Oh, good. Because I am an avalanche and a waterfall. Yeah. And I love this idea that you could be a well and keep it closer to the chest and people can dip in and get the information. Exactly. That you want to give them. A bucket full instead of just barfing all the information out. That's another way to put it. Can you give us advice on how you stand up for yourself? Mm-hmm.

So one is, like we talked about, let your breath be the first word that you say, because what that does is tell people that you heard them and that you're acknowledging. There's a difference between if you just ask me a question, you say, hey, how are you doing, Jefferson? I go, good, good, real good, real good. I didn't really listen. Versus if you ask me that question again, how are you doing, Jefferson? And I said, I'm good. I'm real good.

Now it feels like you've stepped into it. Often when it comes to standing your ground, it is just slowing down your words. Not feeling like you have to rush anything. Nobody can make you say anything that you don't want to say. If you just find ways to give it a beat and figure it out, you're going to be a whole lot better off. Too often people wait till they're talking to figure out what they want to say. Oh my God, that's me. And so they take off...

It's like going to the airport and just flying and getting on the plane and you go, where are you landing? I have no idea. I just got on the plane. I don't know. I get in the car and they're like, where are you going? Who knows? I'm just going. I say all that to say, they finally kind of, they're just going in circles on their plane and they're waiting. You got to help people land the runway often. I feel like that is me at work and in life, that I'm one of these people that needs to talk it out.

And where I start is never where I land. And I'm realizing as I'm listening to you that there's a lot of pre-work that I could do before I walk into a meeting or before I just start blabbing with my family. Yeah.

And it would be way more effective and helpful for people if I actually knew where I was going before I opened my mouth. It always helps to have a goal in the conversation. It helps to have conversational values. It helps to have conversational goals. So talk to me about that. What does that mean to have a conversational goal and a conversational value? If you go back to the original thing that you teach us, which is you get to choose what

what kind of person you are based on the things that you say and how you say them. Conversational goals is simply where you want to end the conversation. You want to make sure you understand what this person meant by this comment. That's your goal. Often we start talking and then we lose track of where we're going because we're listening to respond. We're not listening to understand. Often when you go to trial and you're listening to a witness,

in their direct examination, where bad attorneys go wrong is they just start planning out their next question, regardless of what the witness says, versus waiting to hear that whole answer and adapting to it. So conversational goals is just simply where you're headed. It's the destination of where you're going. Conversational values are how you feel authentic to yourself to get there. So

I have conversational values that I use in every conversation that I have to make sure that no matter what happens in the conversation, I can't control anything else but myself. It's my values that drive my response. For example, one of my key conversational values is if I can't be a bridge, be a lighthouse. In other words, if we can't meet in the middle, if we can't connect in some way,

I'm still gonna be a lighthouse for them. I'm still gonna be a source of light that if they need to come back, they know where I'm at. I have another one that I use, and that is, if there's room for kindness, I will use it. I get that from my mama. I'd come to her with a complaint and she'd say, well, were you kind?

I'd say, mom, you don't understand. This person, this person, this person. She'd go, well, I still think you should be kind. It's like, you know what? If there's always room for kindness, if there's any room at all, that's a chance to use it. The last one I use is tell them who I am without telling them my name.

So that's that idea of letting my words inform them of who I am without anything of my identification or my status or where I am. Is it the value of how I make people feel in my words? So how do you apply those values?

I'm having a conversation with opposing attorney. He says something that he's, you know, how some of them do. They tell you how great their case is. Right. I mean, every case they have is full of sunshine, no bruises. So you have that chance to say, well, could I just give them a piece of my mind and tell them how bad their case is and how I'm going to railroad over them? Or is there any room for kindness in this conversation? And if there is any room at all, then I'm going to use it. And it gives me the chance to say, you know what, Howard?

I gotta tell you, you're great at your job and you really care about your clients. I can tell. I can really tell you care about your clients. And he goes, oh yeah, yeah, you know, I do. I really do. And I feel great about that. And all of a sudden,

He goes, you know what, in that rule 11 you want it? I think we can agree to that. That's no problem. If I can inject my values, I don't have to worry about what to say. I don't have to worry about some zinger act to send. If there's room for kindness, I'll use it. So you find ways to use values to control the conversation. Well, you never regret not being kind. That's a great one. Yeah. And I always regret when I'm not. Yeah. And so one of the huge takeaways that I have is,

is that a lot of us don't stop and think about what the intention is of a conversation and how we want to be perceived and what we want to demonstrate about ourselves by being in it. And it's everywhere from how you walk into a meeting, if you think about what you want to get out of it or how you want to be perceived, then that actually dictates how you're going to show up.

You can use this in absolutely any area of your life. And I think most of us are just sort of going through the day and surviving, and there's a completely different way to think about the way that you communicate. I 100% agree in that if you look at where you are in life, from your romantic relationships to where you are at work,

There is a large percentage of that that is solely based upon what you said to that person. That just meant there are thoughts that came from your brain

that to your mouth, that you spoke out loud, that have influenced where you are. You said something to that person and they liked it and now they want to date you. And they said something you liked and there it is. You met over coffee at the airport or where you are at work at that promotion that you want. You have ways of just simply using the power of your words

to influence everything. And it can change. Even if you said things in the past that you regret or things you wish you would have said better, you can change everything about your life by what you say next. Are there a couple steps that somebody could take to just...

walk themselves through the kind of person that they want to be through their words. Because I feel like there's this step, Jefferson, that we don't really take with intention of getting clear that I want to be this kind of person.

And it's one thing to kind of use kind words. It's a whole nother thing to have a reckoning with yourself where you say, this is an area of my life that I want to take control of and I can take control of it. Are there particular questions that somebody could ask themselves that help them get to what their values might be in terms of

how they want to change the way they communicate, what they want the world to think about them. Like I often think when I go into a meeting, what do I want people to say when I leave?

And it's a trick that I learned when I was a public defender working for legal aid, which is what do I want the jury to say the second that they get out of this courtroom and they get into that meeting with one another? What do I want them to say? And I use that now before I go into a meeting. What do I want them to think about me? And then I align the way that I show up based on

the impact that I want to create in that room. I love that. I do. I'm very similar. That's the, what energy am I bringing to the room? If everybody's at a table and you walk in and you're coming in, what do you want the feeling to be? Oh, this person's here. What's that energy that you're bringing? Because every one of us has a different energy that affects the room that they're in. Is it, oh no, somebody's here or, oh great, somebody's here. Or is it the

Oh man, somebody's here. Everyone's a little bit different. The biggest tool that somebody can use is ask the question to themselves and also to the person that loves them the most more than anybody. Who do my words say that I am? Who do my words say that I am? And that is a great question to ask yourself or you ask somebody else, who do my words say that I am?

because often what you say doesn't match exactly with who you want to be. I would encourage somebody to ask a friend, a spouse, the way that I speak,

What kind of energy does that give? Does that give anxiety? Do I rush my words? Do I speak too fast? Do I speak too slow? How do you want to tweak the room to understand how you want to communicate with that next person? So I would encourage in terms of action steps, it's the question that you need to answer of yourself of,

Who do you want to be with your words? And then what words are you going to use? I think what you have to say is awesome of think long-term of just kind of call your shot. I want to leave that room feeling like I am somebody who's confident. Right. I think it's such an important point because...

You do have so much power over your reputation. You do have power over the impact that you make with other people. And taking a beat before you walk in the room or you walk in the meeting or you walk into the party or you walk up to the sidelines at your kid's soccer game to really remind yourself, what kind of person do I want to be? And now let me align what I say and the energy that I bring to represent that.

Yeah, that's the crazy part about it. It's also the most simple part about it. And that is, it is simply within your control. When you walk away from an interaction from somebody and you go, I really like that person. What was it? What was it that you liked? They said something nice about me. They smiled. They didn't criticize other people. It all has to do with

your communication. And exactly how we started today was their experience of you is going to be almost entirely the words that you use right in front of them. And how they made that person feel. How you made that person feel right then and there. Love this. What are your best tips to be more effective at communicating at work? Tip number one would be have something to learn, not something to prove.

So anytime you're in an argument, and it's not just work, really anything, when you're in a conversation with somebody, have something to learn from them rather than something to prove.

Even if you want to prove yourself, I want to prove who I am. That doesn't come from you pushing your own agenda. It comes from you being curious about other people. And so if you want to be known as somebody who's respectful in the workplace or somebody who's kind, you use kind words. If you want to be known as somebody who's respectful, you use respectful words. So that means if you talk about somebody and gossip and do something negative, that's what people are going to associate you with.

Because it goes even wider than that. If other people associate with you, that bad person, well, then people are going to think differently about them. So it's these circles of communication of what you said, oh, you're friends with so-and-so, you're friends with so-and-so, that are going to influence that. If you want to be more respected at work, use words that show more authority. You can use words like direction.

I like to set the direction of this conversation. I don't like the direction of where this is going. All of a sudden, it sounds like you're captain of the ship. So you're just using the word direction. So you find ways that can influence who you want to be for good. What's one change somebody can make starting today to communicate more effectively with their family?

When you need to have this hard conversation, at all times, show them that you love them, that you care. And you do that with the words, meaning you tell them that, "I'm telling you this because I love you." Often, I know people and you know people that they had really hard childhoods, and they just never heard that from a parent, that I'm proud of you, that I love you. So you find ways to inject that into the conversation.

I'm talking to you right now because I want us to learn from this conversation. Or I'm learning too. When you're having that, you need to deescalate an argument with a spouse or a kid. Hey, I'm learning too. This is my first time to be a parent. This is your first time to be a kid. I'm learning too. Don't be afraid to apologize. Don't be afraid to own that. I think from a position of strength, you can really, really own that apology when you need to. I'm stealing that.

I often say I'm doing the best I can, but I like I'm learning too. Yeah. That's a beautiful thing. It's good for spouses too. You can be dating forever, but as soon as you get married and live together, I mean, it's a whole new world. It is. I just recently heard somebody say that second marriages are amazing, particularly if it's with the same person. And this idea that any moment you can change your relationship because you can change yourself and how you communicate.

And that's the only thing you can't control. I can't control the other person. You can only control how you respond to it. I am going to steal everything that you just taught me. And I'm so excited that you get to listen and be here and learn from Jefferson too. We're going to be leaving here going direction, kindness. I got to tell you this. What are your parting words? To anybody who's listening, my parting words to you are this. You have a power that you haven't tapped into yet.

And that is just the power of your words. If you want to be seen as somebody who's strong, you use stronger words. You want to be somebody who has seemed to be more decisive, somebody who stands up for themselves.

It is not a course you have to take. It is not a book you have to read. It is simply how you need to change the next word that comes out of your mouth. It is something that can be learned at any point. It doesn't matter how young you are to how old you are. What you say next has the power to change anything. And if you use it for good and you use it for light, you're always going to go right. Oh my God, Jefferson. I didn't mean for that to rhyme, but

I love, I'm like, love you. I know it sounds like creepy, but you are a huge light. Thank you. Thank you. And my parting words to you, I hope you take absolutely everything that Jefferson just shared with us and you use it. You use it to,

create better relationships, to speak with authority, to have your words reflect the kind of person that you really want to be. And in case no one else tells you this, I wanted to be sure to tell you, I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And as Jefferson just taught you, it's all in the power of your words. How cool is that? I'll see you in the next episode. Cranking it down.

Yeah, it's like, you're right. It's like the way a semi truck when it turns off like here comes the sneeze. Excuse me. That one was for you, Kev. Do you guys need another take? Was that good? Kevin, you down? Okay, great. Amazing. Thank you so much. There were so many. This is wonderful. Thank you. I'm literally like, I need to do that. It's been wonderful. Thank you.

Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist. And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.

Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. Stitcher.

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