'The Interview': Nancy Pelosi Insists the Election Was Not a Rebuke of the Democrats
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From the new york times, this is the interview i'm luu gar sein of oro. Perhaps no democratic politician has been a greater antagonist of donor trump, the Nancy policy, as the leader of the house democrats.

Between two thousand seven and twenty twenty three, he participated in two trumpet, and peaches memorably ripped up a copy of trump's last state of the union after he delivered, and had an angry mob on january six hunting for her inside the capital. And over the summer, IT was policy, who was reportedly a key voice in convincing biden to step down and give another democrat a shot at beating trump. But we all know now how that story ended.

Vice president kala Harris suffered a stinging loss in tuesday's election. Republicans regained control of the senate, and even though the house has yet to be called for either party, the strength of the G, O, P, S. Turnout is undeniable as republicans made inroads in heavily democratic areas across the country.

Now trump is the president elect with a sweeping Mandate and promises to undo many of policy, and the democrats legislate of achievements. In her first extended interviews since her, her party's defeat policy SAT down with me at the times offices in washington, dc. On thursday evening.

So we're trying to win the house right now.

And he seemed to still be coming to terms with what had happened.

So oh my gosh, this wild.

Even as democrats point fingers over who exactly is to blame, policy seemed unwilling to concede that her party had been handed a crushing a review, and SHE rejected criticism of the democrats direction. Here's my interview with speaker amErica next y policy. First of all, obviously a huge disappointment for you in the democrats. How are you feeling .

on the presidential level? I feel sad for the american people. The policies that have been put forth by the president to be or some that are very, uh, so we say if it's is first terms, any indication is gona favor the very rich at the expense of working families from us.

A political standpoint is very proud of commoner Harris. I I think he did an excEllent job putting forth an agenda for the future. Uh, a person a not only to do this, but I substantial to do this for the american people.

And he gave us hope with dignity and and Grace and a very proud of a candidate. Y IT did. The people have spoken. Donald trump has one. And now we will have a peaceful transfer of power in our country.

You were at harasses concession speech on wednesday afternoon. Have you spoken to her since election? And what was that conversation like? And what is SHE feeling at this moment?

Yes, i've feel to her. I ve told how proud we are of her, thanking her for, again, giving us hope with great dignity. H obviously, IT takes time to absorb an election, uh, IT.

IT takes actually a while to understand how certain things have happened, what they did happened. And SHE accept sad. And she's my personal friend as well. So I for me, IT was emotional to have to have a conversation in a way that was praise worthy of her patriotic leadership. But sad for her personally.

When you say emotional, what does that mean exactly?

It's sad. And we're talking about the presidency of the united states. We are talking about what a person who was a good person, a person who cares about people.

That's why she's in the civic arena. And then politically, very stute. You don't get to be the nominee of the party unless you know you're politics. But we are on the verge understand that I know that I look like a very red outcome yesterday, but we are on the verge of perhaps winning the house and making her came jeffrey, the speaker of the house. There are few votes to be counted in a arizona organ and california and were optimistic that we can win.

You might win the house, but you definitely lost the presidency. You lost the senate. And there is a good chance that the G.

O. P. Remains in control in the house. There's already been a lot of passing of what happened, and I know that there's gonna a lot to come. But what is your main take away from that terrible night for the democrats?

But I was was not a good night for the democrats. But as I say, I don't except right now, and we won't even know by the time this goes to print what the outcome is of the house races, but understand this the big assault that was made a big red a map across america. Um we lost two of our companies.

Yb three were still waiting to hear from one in alaska, but that was a big save. I mean, now are our uh what we call our front line candidates buy a large one in places where the republicans were raging with their vote for the president and and the senate, the house members did very well. As I said, it's still A A possibility that we can win, but just that is a possibility tells you that the house ran against the tide. Uh, already we have started our organizing for the future. We don't organize of what happened, we organize about what comes next.

But I do think it's important to discuss a little bit about what you think could have been done differently. And a lot of the discussion has centered around how much president brightens delay in deciding to leave the race following the debate in june, hurt the vpc campaign. You know you were very involved in encouraging him to leave and there's reporting that you are concerned about him being the candidate well before the debate in june. And polls were showing that the american people were very concerned about president britten's age and his ability to lead into another term. Do you wish i'd gotten involved earlier than you did?

No, I wealth. The president made his own decision to step aside and to endure camera Harris, who made a patriotic self, this decision to, for which we are all very grateful. I think that was one of the reasons we were able to save so many heal seats. So I thank him for that. I had no reason to earlier say anything to the president.

I would wish, ed, that they had in the first two years, the present term, been more out there about what we had accomplished, the rescue package, money in people's pockets, shots in their arms, people back to work, children safely back to school, the biden tol tax credit always think they could have been more of presentation of that. I was not asking the president to episode. What I was asking the, the, the president to do is to have the campaign be more clear.

think you should ever run for a second term.

But that's a whole other, uh, that's a whole a conversation, uh, the decisions that people make. I just say this, the president is the president. A candidate for president have their campaigns, but we as the rest of us have to mobilize at the grass roots levels to on the ground so they win. We have to have a message that has clarity and uh unity to IT and not divisiveness, uh just in terms of alienate in people. And third, the monday to get the job done, we did all that we needed to to win the house as well as the White house is up to the candidate for president to make his or her own decision about timing policy.

Do you think the timing hobbled comella Harris because he had hundred days to get a campaign off the ground, to mobilize people, to get her message across, to get her self known? I mean, this was an incredibly truncated campaign, and many people think that maybe he was set up to fail just by the time line alone.

I think he was set up to feel but let me just say this, we are only a couple of days since the election. There will be many reviews of timing and the who, what, when and why and where uh, as we go forward and books will be written about IT. The fact is you did a great job with the time constraint that he had. Had the president gotten out sooner, there may be other candidates in the race, commonly, I think, still would have won, but SHE may been stronger, having taken her case to the public sooner.

You've talked about your interest in having had an open primary. yes. And as you know, I would have uncovered her weaknesses or strength.

IT would have tested her electability. That's what the primary system is is intended to do. And I would have also perhaps resulting in a omani that wasn't so tied to una popular president.

Well, let me is interesting that you say those things. I don't think that any review of the election a should be percent on weaknesses. But strength of cella Harris SHE gave people hope to cause a great deal excitement in all this. It's about winning. You had to tell me that, but the fact is we're set up for what comes next.

There have been an open primary there.

See, we thought that there would be IT was the anticipation was if if the president were to step aside, that there would be an open primary. And as I say, come on, may have I think he would have done well in that and been stronger going forward. But we don't know that, that didn't happen.

We live with what happened. And because the president endorsed commoner Harris immediately, that really made IT almost impossible to have primary at that time. If I had been much earlier, what had been different.

But that's not we're not here to organize. We're here again to organize on how we go for IT. We're going to have fresh new talent, perhaps camera among them.

That's up to her to go forward for the next election, but I think people need a little rest from elections right now. We're still fighting to win the house. So we're not finished with our race, but it's a pretty exciting road ahead and time goes by quite quickly.

I'm sympathetic to the desire to move on from what is a very difficult moment. Um I do though feel like the democratic electorate is looking for some reflection now and some understanding of how things ended up the way that they did. And you know when you look at what happened on tuesday, you can see IT in two ways. You can see that the country embraced trump, or you can see that they rejected the democratic party more broadly, and the biden has administration. How do you see IT?

Well, I don't see the democracy problem more broadly. We lost two seats in the house, and we expect to pick up some more to offset that. Right now. We're about even so, I don't think wherever you said with all do, respect applies to the house democrats .

though that the way that the house runs is different than you run a national campaign, right? House races are run, you know, very locally. They message specifically for their district. But the brand of the democratic party overall seems to have been hurt .

this election cycle. Well, I think we lost the presidential election and in many cases, our democrats in the house front ahead of the presidential ticket. So you're branding that we all got rejected, that we didn't.

We're still in the fight right now and it's going to be a close a very close call. I don't see IT as an out right rejection of the democratic c party. Now I do have a discomfort level with some democrats right now.

We're saying, oh, we we abandon the working cuts now we didn't. That's who we are. We are the kitchen table working class party of america. And that's why we're, uh, close call in the house right now in a year where the map is a bright red across the board.

I want to to pick up on this um working class issue because uh, in a statement after the election, senator berny center said IT should come as no great surprise that a democratic party which is abandoned working class people would find that working class people have abandoned them. And joe mansion, who's now an independent but was an important moderate democrat for years, also wait in and had a similar diagnosis of what went wrong. And that was that the party doesn't stand for what I used to.

I just completely disagree, and in fact might notice that that, come on, Harris ran ahead a bury standards in vermont.

So what does I tell you? I mean.

you tels you that the fact is, is that what we do, what our purpose is in the democratic party, is for america's working families. So I want to pursue IT berny standards. He is berny.

Sanders has not won. Let me with all do respect. And I have a great deal of respect for him, for what he stands for. But I don't respect him saying that the democratic party has abandoned ed.

The working class family is that's where we are, for example, for example, under president by you see the rescue package money in the pockets of people, the shots in the ARM children and school, safely working people back to work. What did what his name? What did trump do when he was president? One bill that gave a tax cut to the richest people in america. In fact.

did voters who earned less than one hundred thousand k. Go for trump s in such large numbers?

Well, there are cultural issues involved in election as well. Gun to guide and gates, that's that's the way they say IT guns, that's an issue. Gays, that's an issue. Now they're making the trands issue such an important issue and their priorities and and the uh in certain communities what they call god, what we call a woman's right to choose.

So you feel like I was the culture.

I think that that s part of nothing is IT. It's hard of IT because it's really hard to understand how someone would vote for somebody like trump. Hoo's been there for the wealthier people.

And again, I think the message that bernie Sanders has put out is not the winning message for the american people. I love him. I think he's great.

He's been wonderful, shall we say? Champion for his point of view. But for his point of view is not correct when he says the democrat have abandoned the working families.

Same thing with mention. I love mention. We have our talent, american catholic connection, and we ve work together, but we have not abandoned working families.

Most of the voters, though, said that they voted on the economy and inflation and immigration. These were the main issues on cultural issues. Those are policy issues, migration.

this immigration, cultural. When the candidate for president saying that these people coming in are murder, rapist, thieves and all the rest of that, he made that a cultural issue of the immigration issue.

But there were my people that came in through the border at a time.

and he said they were criminals, and they weren't. They weren't.

People felt quite strongly they didn't want to see immigrants sleeping in police stations at air port.

We were clear enough by saying fewer people came in under president biden, then came under Donald d. trump. See that it's clarity of the message.

And if that's what bernie's talking about and that's what genome, and so that we want to clear our message as to what things are, then I agree with that. And that was one of the concerns I expressed about saying we haven't put forth what we was done. It's our legacy to the rescue package infrastructure bill, the chips act, but that didn't come across as well as they should have.

So I think if you're talking about messaging, you're talking about communications, that's one thing. If you're talking about what we stand for versus what they stand for, the public is in for a big surprise. I didn't come here today to go through the list of grievances against Donald trump.

He's now the president. We wish our country well under the leadership of the any president, but we will disagree with him where we disagree and try to find common ground where that exist. We have that responsibility to the american people.

But there is nothing in evidence of what he has done before. When he says obamacare socks and he's going to get rid of that, they might even get rid the chips at, which is a big jobs issue in our country. So we have, again, i'm not here to take him down.

He won the election. congratulations. Good luck to him there. But hopefully we can find common ground.

I do just want to make sure i'm understanding where you're at in this moment. You say the democrats had a strong case for working class voters and you say commonly haris was not especially wait down by biden's .

record and I didn't see that. Oh, okay.

So do you feel that come la Harris was way down by bidens record with the perception of bidens record?

I think that any vice president is like IT are not tied to the record of the president. I think what biden did was great and being tied to his record is a great thing, but not the way the record was perceived. This is a record of job creation, sixteen million jobs, as opposed to the record of her opponent, who had the worst job creation record since herbert over, yes, sixteen million jobs. Turning around inflation, all the things that we did to build the infrastructure of america. S A prescription drug.

a page out of your book, which I remember when you were speaker of the house. You would always tell all of the people running, you can run against me. You can cut me out.

You can disavow me as long as you win your race. Do you think you should have taken that attack? Now is up with biden.

I may just say this about the presidential. The presidential is a 呃， a very special banner to Carry. I never advise presidential candidates on what they should be doing. The presidency is a different on initiative. So I never i'm not today giving president and that many .

things can be said, said about you, but you are brilliant tactician and a brilliant .

political mind. But I would rather .

to say strategies than technician OK. And as a strategy, should he not have tried to differentiate herself, SHE was tagged as being an extension of president biden.

And let me ask you this, do you think that the republican candidate for president and his campaign would have let IT? Oh, okay, no. They were going to be advertising against joba and cuna Harris that so it's not a question of what you would do.

It's not it's a question of how they would present IT anyway. That's why I leave IT up to them. They have a the intelligence from the campaign. They have the talent out there to do the job. And I respect commoner haris as our candidate for president.

What does IT say to you that many parts of the electorate didn't find the argument put forward about democracy being so important, about what happened on january six being disqualifying, about many of the aggregation examples of trumps rhetoric being offensive? Ultimately, I didn't change their vote. I don't think IT was a question .

of change in there. I think that's where they were now. The fact of january six, that was an assault on our congress, assault on the capital, this speaking of democracy to the world and assault on the constitution of the united states, IT was interaction, instigated by the president, that they knew how bad IT was.

That's why they had a have revisionism story to change the story. And that's really shameful. Got blissful chain for speaking out and adam kinzer and speaking out.

why do you think so the american voters.

you have american voters because I think sometimes I think when i'm talking listening to them that they're saying american democracy is very strong. You can understand anything. Well, I hope they're right then that's what .

i've somehow americans have never experienced um you know democratic backsliding ting is you've seen another countries and they just sort of discounted the argument but .

some of them I have very confidence in american people. I believe buying lives are patriotic. They care about constitution and that they are good people.

And I I, I election is an election, but I do believe that um I will have an opportunity now to show a distinction when they see what comes down the pike and hopefully not too harmful. And so I don't know that we can level l everybody as saying everybody thought the democracy was not at risk. No, plenty people did. Plenty of people did.

A lot of democrats stayed home. That's what the number show that there wasn't as robust turned out as had .

been hoona really, really example. There were no races that mattered in terms of who would be president. IT was clear in their state and that and also in terms of congress and other races, that was clearly going to be democratic.

So some people were not motivated to turn out. But that's not unusual. Do you worry .

though about what you've seeing in california, new york, big democratic strongholds? It's a quite a bit of erosion. I mean, a lot of the competitive house races are in california that when you look at the map, as I concern you.

new york will picked up four seats in the past nine months, picked up four democratic seats in the first last night, night time swazi to begin with, earlier in the year, but three tuesday night picked up three democratic seats in new york. So no, i'm not worried about about that.

But president trump performed twenty percentage points Better in the bronx and queens then he did in twenty twenty. So I guess my question is, is this the trump effect that he is just a uniquely popular person? Or is this something that the democrats aren't doing?

right? No, we did IT write. We won four seats in new york. We do not need to focus where you need to focus to win.

And the focus was in those seats in state of new york knew what was going to go for for the democrat IT was going to go for for cella Harris. So within the state, we were focusing on how we increase the number of house rates. So we go to those districts and we go to those districts and we won those districts.

But what is that shift? IT doesn't concern you. In the bronx and queens from .

one race to the other, IT just depends on what the issues are there there. I think what we were told in the last election in york is that safety was a big issue and the emphasis was not as strong as that should have been. But you'd have to talk to the new york kers about their district.

I'm just so proud of them. Hug him, jeffrey. He will be speaking er either in a few days or in a couple years, but I think I will be in a few days. And he did a master ful job in new york in the selection.

After the break, I talk to speaker amErica policy about the mood of the party and the path forward.

Yeah, we don't like losing. And there are people who professionally go around saying what berney said and what impressed say, but I don't think it's ugly in the democracy now at all.

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You yourself for um reelected on tuesday. Congratulations you s term right which is extraordinary.

is am very proud of that.

Is that your last term?

I'm not here to talk about that. I'm here to fight the fight so that we win in the next election. I must have thought I pad the last term over and over again in time myself. But as fate would have IT the mission called.

some of trumps actual last words on the campaign were about you. No, he called you evil sec crazy. He called you the reward and then .

stopped himself.

He's promised to prosecute you and other democrats if elected. Are you concerned that he's going to make good on his threat?

I'm concerned about what his presidente means to the everyday life of the american people. That is why we're here for the people. So again, if I was concerned about what he said about me, as I ve been going on since one two thousand sixteen when I am concerned about is what that means when he says with his twenty twenty five, that is going to eliminate the department of education that is going to take over the department of justice, that he's going to repeal the affordable care at and now they're saying, even of the tips, that that's what concerns me. If I were concerned about what he says about me, what would be my worth if I cared about what he said about me, that.

well, we should say that your husband, popular, who might know a little, because we serve on a university board together, and he was the victim of political violence. So I imagine that threats against during differently now.

because, well, is the is so sad about that, is they violated the sanctity of my home, the safety of my husband looking for me. Where is Nancy? Where is Nancy?

Echoing what was said on january six in the capital, when they were coming after me to put a bullet in my head, the and and he was going to punish ed me for what I had said about Donald d. trump. So yeah, that's that's of concern is concern to me because of what happened to my husband when they were looking for me.

What was sad about IT, too, for my children, my grandchildren, my husband and for me, was that present trump saw IT was funny. He made a joke of IT, as did his children, as did the governor, the republican governor of virgina, as did a elan, mostly thought that was really funny, that that he would get almost murdered by somebody hitting over the head of the hammer and they thought that was funny and it's not funny whether he thinks so or not, it's not funny. But IT is um serious.

And politics and government are the peaceful resolution of disagreement. And disagreement is what a democracy is about. So we'd don't expect everybody to think the same.

That's not what what this is. It's about having your differences of opinion as present a Thomas defer, since every difference of opinion is not a difference of conscience. But if when you have a difference, that is is then you have to stand your ground.

I mean, president trump has promised to use the justice department and the attorney general to go after his perceived enemies. He has said that over and over again.

and you're one of them. But you would think that that would be enough region for people not to vote for him, but that's what he said. So when people say to me, why do you think our democracy is in danger? I'll say, what? what? Let's depine our democracy, but is democracy for unfair elections, peaceful transfer of power, independence of the judiciary, the rule of the law, all of those kinds of things are what part of A A democracy. So if he's going after those things, and thank god that the only, uh, shall we say, peace of mind that we have today is that we don't have the assault on the system that IT would have been there had come on in a Harris one I isn't bright, shouldn't be that way and that that he would say, he would say, maybe thought I might didn't anna do IT but to say, IT and the american people say that's okay with me.

but they did say it's okay with them because that's who they elected. So I wonder if this has been a moment for you to reevaluate whether you think you actually understand this country?

No, I do. I do. I understand what was happening out there. I've traveled the country quite a bit about IT and see what is, look, i've been the target not just of him, but a lot of these people who are out there who don't like the fact that I criticize him.

But I think that we make a very big mistake if we underestimate ate the greatness of the american people and the greatness of our democracy and the greatness of our country. So no, I don't think that at all. We have elections, people make decisions.

We go on to the next thing, and then we say, show the difference between the two parties and and the other parties that is involved in IT and with great pride. What we stand for, and that's what we have to point out, is the difference. And that's why I had my concerns earlier this year. There wasn't enough clarification in the public mind as to what we have set out to do. We have to do that Better next time.

I don't have to tell you that right now, it's pretty ugly among democrats. There's a lot of blame going around. There's a lot of reflection happening and there's a lot of discussion about how the party rebuild after this and how does IT not tell itself apart .

when I disagree. I don't think it's very ugly among democrats. Now yeah, we don't like losing. I was on a meeting this morning, which is I don't talk about what happens at a clock is meeting, but I can say IT was a unified and um a respectful of what the responsibility ie.

S that we have to go forward praise worthy about leadership IT was a IT was long and people took their time to tell how they saw things and I was in my view as unifying as i've ever ever seen IT and IT wasn't without concern. IT wasn't without wisdom and intelligence about what happened IT wasn't Polly anish, but IT was productive. And IT was about how we go forward to to um be by partisan, where we can be transparent to, in all cases, accountable, choose public, but prepare to win the next time so yes, we don't like losing. And there are people who professionally go around saying what bernie said and was impressed, say, but I don't think it's ugly in the democratic party now at all.

I've traveled a lot and work a lot in other countries, and i've seen a lot of populous leaders and populists have this warping effect on the body politics because the opposition to them gets distilled into just being against the populist leader as opposed to standing for something bigger. Do you worry that the democratic party could be transformed into simply the anti trump party? And do you think that is what happened in this election? No.

I don't think so. I think some people perceived IT that way. But that perception, uh, I don't think that at all. That's not our purpose.

Now I would say this in terms of your question, populism in this country and in some of those of countries now is not just about popular m in terms of an economic approach ism. It's about than a phobic religious populum. So there's something more uh, shall we say, a to be concerned about about what they're saying.

They're saying a religious, a Christian nationalist country. All those were terrible problem. A religious country? A nationality country? no. So right now, your question is a really important one because populum is one thing.

Zena phobic, religious nationalist populum is dangerous, and that is what we have to make sure the public sees the difference in. And you can just say, we have to accept religious populist, identifiable populism. Cause food Prices are lower. If that's what this is about.

Where is bad? As the british people in amErica saying, I I know trump what he ever is, but I just care about my tax return billionaire. Not all them. Of course, I will paint everybody with the same.

But talking about elon mask and others.

we're all about conspectus ce, but not only them. So in any case, this is america's a great country. The american people deserve the best we can give them. The election was disappointing, heartbreaking in some ways because of not seeing what was really at stake. But we don't blame them for that. We have to be clear in our message, and i'm a big body, liver and mobilization as you can manoeuver and congress and government all you want, and that's important, but you cannot succeed unless you mobilize outside so that the people weigh in.

What is the plan with a trumpet administration? Would you advise democrats to try and fight and be oppositional? Or are you going to try and work with?

No, with that question, that we always try to work with republicans. That's the responsibility that we have. We used to be that way until recent times, but I used to be that way that we always try to find our common ground. That was our responsibility, and IT still is. But I will say this, that where we disagree.

we disagree twice. Peached, yeah, he's been .

he's .

been legally tried.

but know, and I have to say, the supreme court has been an embarrassment to our founders. Would they just to have on immunity for any president, whoever IT might be, and to do so and take forever to do IT so that justice could not be addressed one way or another? But you know what? I'm not here again, a mike thoughts about a dont trumpet, a well known i'm not an admire of his, a lack of patriotic m of the rest.

But i'm here to going to that. He's the president. We all want the president to succeed. We wanted him to cede in two thousand sixteen until they went down a path that we had to disagree with.

But the um but again, let's give lets give us a chance and see what we can find. Our come again, we'll see what is right and what is real. Let's see what materialize and will fight every fight along the way.

But it's no use going into his personal situation. The public has ignored that or some of enough of them have. So that, that was just let us move on, but we going to show the difference. You're going to see a it's gonna pretty exciting for what comes next in the demo crac party.

Madam speaker, thank you very much for your time.

my pleasured to be here. Thank you that .

speaker amErica Nancy policy. This conversation was produced by sah Kelly IT was edited by anibal bacon, mixing by a theme super o original music by dan power and marian lizana photography by David yuki in our senior booker is pro Matthew and White ARM is our producer. Our executive producer is alison benedict.

Special thanks to Jessica elastic, roy walsh, RNA beri jeffrey and a mm elo jiles sine policeman saw, if you like, what you're hearing, follow or subscribed to the interview. Wherever you get your podcast to read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to N Y time, start calm, slash the interview, and you can email us anytime at the interview at N Y time. Start com.

Next week, David talks with doctor elen weed, a long time advocate for and practitioner of medical assistance in dying. When somebody gets a diagnosis instantly, when you have that horrible diagnosis, you also know your options break from the beginning and lugo cn ovo. And this is the interview from the new york times.