Jon Stewart and Mark Cuban Discuss the Price of Prescription Drugs
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Welcome to the Cooper residence. Cooper McAllister. I'm surprised you put my name first. Come on in. From the brains behind the Big Bang Theory and Young Sheldon, CBS is excited to welcome back some beloved, familiar folks. I am so glad that you and Cece are here. And Georgie. Atta girl. It's a whole new chapter. Georgie and Mandy's first marriage premieres CBS Thursday, 8, 7 central and streaming on Paramount+.

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Hey everybody, Jon Stewart here. I am here to tell you about my new podcast, The Weekly Show. It's going to be coming out

Every Thursday. So exciting. You'll be saying to yourself, TGIT. Thank God it's Thursday. We're going to be talking about all the things that hopefully obsess you in the same way that they obsess me. The election, economics, earnings calls. What are they talking about on these earnings calls? We're going to be talking about ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches.

And I know that I listed that fourth, but in importance, it's probably second. I know you have a lot of options as far as podcasts go, but how many of them come out on Thursday? I mean, talk about innovative. Listen to The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to Comedy Central. Yeah.

Hey, this is Ron Chang. The Daily Show is on break this week, but don't worry. We put together some special highlights for you to catch up on in case you missed them. We'll be back on September 10th. Until then, enjoy this episode. My guest tonight, an entrepreneur and already owner of the NBA's Dallas Mavericks, co-founder of Cost Plus Drug Company. Please welcome Mark Cuban. Sir. Thank you. Yes, sir. Security. Security?

I didn't hear you. What did you say? This is a... No!

This is a Knicks town, Frank. They love that. Now, are people in New York, are they, because of the history between the Mavericks and the Knicks, generally with the trades where you fleeced us to a certain extent, do you find there's a kindness that is extended to you from Knicks fans? Literally, I like to walk in New York, right? And just today, walking down the street, yeah, Q-Man, we love you. It's crazy. Literally, there's great basketball fans here. I get all kinds of love.

And that's what you get in New York. That's what they shout at you. Yeah, but now that's what I get. And now it's more thanks for JB, right? But yeah, that's what I get. Right. Well, Jalen Brunson. Now, did you have any idea when Jalen Brunson was there? And I'm sorry to go down this road, but I'm a Knick fan. And this is just, you're going to have to sit through it.

Jalen Brunson was not. He started in the playoffs when Luka was hurt. Did you have any idea that he would become this all-NBA phenomenon? He's undersized. He doesn't. His footwork is so phenomenal. No, no idea. I mean, he was talented, but he was picked in the second round. If everybody knew, he would have been a top five pick. I mean, if you redraft that draft, other than Luka, he is a top three or five pick. That's amazing. It's crazy, yeah. But more credit to him. He worked on it.

Yeah, and he just seems like a phenomenal guy. And then decided to take a contract for less money than he could have made. So let's talk politics. By the way now, you are in this interesting position in your career where you've sort of evolved. You are now, even though I think your leanings are probably you consider more independent, more libertarian, you are the left's favorite billionaire. You've become because...

And I can't... I don't know if it's because...

there's a certain mellowing that occurs as you get older, or if this new sort of tech bro phenomenon is so dystopian in its formulation. -Yeah, I mean, this is who I've always been. I haven't been like the rich guy trying to act like a rich guy. My friends are still my high school buddies, my college buddies, my rugby buddies. But watching what's happened in Silicon Valley is insane. -Right. -Right? It's not so much a support thing. It's more like a takeover thing.

trying to put themselves in a position to have as much control as possible. They want Trump to be the CEO of the United States of America, and they want to be the board of directors that makes him listen to them. It's not a good thing. What is the ethos? Because it seems like in the old days of innovation, there was a certain amount of we're innovating the Internet, we're taking things. Now it seems much more about...

sort of this social engineering and transhumanism, and we are going to join with computers, and together, eight of us are going to run everything. -Dominate, right?

Is that the ethos you see? Yeah, I think... I'm going to go with yeah. You just said yeah. They've gotten to the point now where they feel like they should control the world, right? And that there should be a CEO in charge of everything. Because they have a good photo app? Because they're rich as f***, right? You know, it's just like you get to that point sometimes where I think they've lost the connection to real world. Is it boredom? Like, is there a certain extent, like...

If you're like a Bezos or one of those guys, you've sold so many books that you're just like, I'm going to live on Mars. I think it's more of what's their next act, right? We invented this. We did this. We created that. What can we do next? Somebody wants to go to Mars? Well, what can we do here back on Earth? Well, I mean, look at Elon, right?

Elon, in being one of those powerful people, he's trying to be the most influential man in the world. It sounds like a commercial, but literally that's what Twitter has given him. I've got to say, I think he might be that. I don't even think he's trying to be. When you talk about somebody who is setting up satellite links for war zones and also controlling discourse in the most important media platform, I would think he is the most powerful.

Because Twitter is in almost every country, right? And so Twitter gives him the ability to connect to the prime minister, the head of every country in the world. That's right. And that person, whoever's in charge of that country, has an interest in what happens on Twitter. And what happens on Twitter, because of the control of the algorithms being the biggest user, is all dependent on Elon Musk. He literally, wherever his thumb wants to go, he gets to push as hard as he wants. And he certainly, I mean, he's transparent about where he wants...

things to go. I think he's very clear that civil war is inevitable and that white people are under the gun. Concerning. Right. It'll be like, civil war is inevitable, and then he'll write underneath there, hmm, you know. Kind of an understatement on there. But

I can't decide whether or not it's better to know exactly where he stands and know where he's going to be put the thumb on. Because he's not, he's clearly a very bright guy. Yeah, for sure. And he has a media empire that has the largest reach and most influence of anything on the face of the earth. And there's no question he's going to leverage it in this election. Nope.

But the crazy part is he has more impact globally than he does domestically in my opinion, right? Because when you go on X, you see a preponderance of right-leaning people. You don't see a lot. They're all over my For You. I've never clicked on any of these f***ing things. Well, that's the whole thing. That's the way algorithms work, right? What? Yes!

They do the opposite of what I want? Yes. When somebody tells him, when you write an algorithm, I haven't written a lot, it's been a while, but when you write one, you get to set the parameters of what you want to see happen. And he certainly has done that to the things he likes. But it's different than other platforms, and the good news is, what, 20% of adults in the United States are on Twitter? So, I mean, there's 80% who aren't there. But isn't this a certain amount of...

a tech bro malpractice that there is this incredible need in the marketplace of something that is slightly less biased or toxic when it comes to that. And they came out with Threads and you're on it for two seconds. You're like, I think I need a nap. No, I like Threads. Threads is getting better. Try it. Here's something that doesn't sell online. No, it's getting better.

That may be the worst pitch ever. But see, you do disrupt industries. I try. See, that's why I would have thought, and I think you've said this, that Trump appealed to you at first because there is a certain outsider. And look, we both know our government, there is a status quo and there is a...

a capture by lobbies and by big businesses that write this legislation and end up gaining advantage that needs to be disrupted. Correct. When did it occur to you that he didn't necessarily want to free it? He wanted to have the deed to the swamp signed over to him. About the third time I talked to him, right? It was...

He wasn't about changing. I mean, the conversations I would have with him, I'm like, there was a time when... Are these phone conversations? Yeah, phone conversations, yeah. Is it Zoom? No, it wasn't Zoom, right? That was pre-Zoom, actually. Does he FaceTime? No, I didn't FaceTime, right? But, like, we were talking about this one debate for CNBC that he wasn't going to be at. And I'm like, don't... Not doing much.

I'm not going. It's not happening. I'm like, Donald, why don't you go to a local small business and sit there at the table and just show off your business chops, right? And show people your business. He goes, Mark, Donald Trump and Mark Cuban don't go to people's houses and have dinner. Are you kidding me? That's who he is, right? When we talked about what's he going to do with the ground game? Now, I got all these religious people who are going to do the work for me. Jesus. So he...

In his mind. So I think this is very interesting because and maybe you know this, too. He runs a family business. So he is, in essence, a monarch. It's a dictatorship. And maybe there's not as much malevolence to his actions as, oh, this America can be a subsidiary.

of the Trump Organization because this is how I run it. And they might say, well, we have checks and balances and division of government. And he just thinks himself, yeah, no, we're going to get rid of that. Yeah, that's the sense I get. That's what it is. Yeah, this is my country, right? Everybody else is bad. Donald good. Okay.

And so Donald's good. So whoever thinks Donald's good, also good. Come along for the ride, right? I mean, he just brought hate and anger to politics, and that is his sales pitch. When you talk to him, is that a part of his general conversation, or do you think that is a strategic demagoguing of he wants to get that emotion? That wasn't what we talked about, but I think that's...

Donald is a sales rep. He's a salesperson. He's going to follow what works. And whatever, he's going to try all kinds of different things. He's going to talk to all kinds of different people. Right. And he'll try things out. And if it works,

It's going to he's going to do more of it. Do you see him on his heels now? When was the last time that you sort of had these counseling sessions? No, there were. I talked to him probably 2019. No, I talked to him during the pandemic because I was trying to help him with different things. Look, he's still the president. United States is still our country. Right. So I tried to help him with PPE and a lot of different things. A lot of medical care type stuff. Sure. Well, we got who suggested the bleach. Is that you? Is that?

Everything's going great. Everything's working. Cuban comes up and says, have you tried drinking liquid plumber? I did not say drink. I said inject. All right. Fair enough. Fair enough. John Stewart here. Unbelievably exciting news. My new podcast, The Weekly Show. We're going to be talking about the election, economics, ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. Listen to The Weekly Show with John Stewart wherever you get your podcasts.

So what is your relationship now with this tech world and how does AI fit into that? And how do you remain bullish on those innovations when they so clearly are working to avoid any kind of regulation of these new innovations? Okay, two things. One, they're there because they're rich, not because they're tech bros or because they just happen to make their money in tech. I don't think that's really applicable. The AI side...

You know, I've been in technology for a long time, and you can always look at a new tech, PCs, networks, the Internet, streaming, whatever, and say, okay, in five years, this is what's going to happen, right? Have a good sense. With AI, you can't do that. With large language models, we have no idea whether it's going to zig or zag or what the impact is going to be. And that's the good news and the bad news. The good news is we're dominating right now globally, the United States is. The bad news is... In terms of? In terms of...

are the quality and the impact of the AI and the advancements that we're introducing in AI, the research that we're doing. We are, without question, the leader, and that's really important from a defense perspective, military, et cetera, and also, you know, from a business perspective. It's going to have a big impact on this country. I personally think it's generally positive, but there's a lot of uncertainty to come. And so when you... Now, what gives you the hope that it's generally positive? Because I'll, as a counterpoint... Mm-hmm.

We heard the same thing about social media. And we heard the same thing about all these different innovations of the connectivity. And yet, every time I turn on Congress, Zuckerberg is up there like, look, I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry.

I didn't know it was going to kill all your daughters. Like, no, remember, it's still just a short window. Social media, you know, has really only been prominent last six years. And I think we'll learn and we'll evolve. And the same thing will happen with AI. There's going to be points in time where it's...

up right and people are using it but i think over time particularly with gen z right gen z is a different beast you know boomers are idiots i mean we went from sex we went from sex drugs and rock and roll to fox news i mean it doesn't get any worse than that right and and they're trying to we haven't done well no and and they're trying to define um regulations right and that's hard

Right. That's really, really hard. And so I think Gen Z has a better understanding, a better feel for AI and where it's going and would be able to come up with better uses, better implementations and better regulation. Does it concern you that the implementation timeframe? So when you think about the industrial revolution, right, and you think about the disruption or globalization, the disruption to the workforce, the way that labor can travel and labor cannot travel, but capital can.

Right. And all these different things that were kind of a race to the bottom for American workers to a large extent. But all those changes took place over sometimes a century, sometimes decades. The changes in AI, the disrupt. Right. So when you've got something that disrupts to maybe even a larger extent than globalization did to maybe a larger extent than the Industrial Revolution did. And it's going to happen by Thursday. Yep.

In what world are humans in any way capable and set to withstand that disruption? I think we'll be able to withstand it, but I think it's going to be very disruptive. And the problem is, it's going to happen anyways. And, you know, somebody here, your son at Duke, right, can say, I've got this great idea. I'm going to implement it with an open source, large language model, and I'm going to take it in this direction. That's so weird. He did say that to me. Right? Right.

Gen Z is different. Yeah. Right? Gen Z, I think, looks at humanity differently, is kinder. Like, I've got three kids, 15, 18, and 21, right? Right. And they're just nicer, right? They're not like we were. So are you trying to say, like, are we weathering what is the last gasp of this kind of more...

MISANTHROPIC MOMENT IN HISTORY. SO IN YOUR MIND, WHATEVER HAPPENS, THIS IS GOING TO BE A MORE MISANTHROPIC DECADE THAT WILL BE AMELIORATED BY THIS YOUNGER GENERATION. I HOPE SO, RIGHT? I HOPE SO BECAUSE THE REGULATORY CAP -- THE WAY WE'VE ALWAYS DONE POLITICS RIGHT NOW IS EVERYBODY IS CHASING POWER. AND NOTHING WILL GIVE YOU MORE POWER THAN MILITARY AND AI.

the algorithm, I mean, we talk going back to algorithms again, right? Driven by AI. That's the most powerful element in the world right now, because everybody just gets whatever they're seeing reinforced. And if you want to influence somebody, just manipulate the algorithm and you'll get their attention. And so, but I think. So what's the remedy on that? If there's no one working a pushback, if pushing back on that is considered censorship. You just got to go through it. It's just one of those things where you've got

to go through it. It's an evolution of a new media model. Just an evolution of technology, not a media, right? Because if we don't do it, the Chinese and the Russians will. Because the only thing that holds AI back is processing power, electricity, and ingenuity, right? And I think our ingenuity wins. I'm still a big believer in American exceptionalism. I still believe that we've got the best technologists in the world. And I think that's why we have to open that door for AI.

So ultimately, it becomes a question of the world is going to be carved up in the way that it's always been somewhat carved up in terms of its resources. The question is, is it carved up by the Western world or is it carved up by somebody else, a different world? And do they set up a different system? And I'm assuming that Russia and China see a unique vulnerability.

in the West's ascension in this moment that's been the world order since 1945. Everybody looks at it, right? And looks at it and says, AI, if I can, he who controls AI, right? And so, but we've done a good job of limiting processors, the new...

semiconductor act will help us quite a bit and will bring think you know we were already doing most of those things here right. So how do you resist the rain right so like Lord of the Rings the ring of power like it's the one thing boy when you get the rain. You just don't want to let it go how do you resist that because you've got the money you've got the influence you could be that guy you could be setting those things up and doing all that but you're just trying to get us like better generic aspirin like what is happening.

I know what I know and I know what I can do I know what I'm good at okay and you're not tempted by the ring that's in front of us I think there's a different ring right because yeah I could be the end-all be-all technologically right but that doesn't play to my strengths and the ups and downs and ins and outs are just not me but you want to talk about pharmacy

What could be better than f***ing up the health care system in the United States of America and make it so it's affordable? That's interesting. Yeah. There's a path there. There is. I imagine when you get in that position at that height, you can't help but hear the siren call of, you could run this whole f***ing thing, Cuban. Maybe a little bit. Maybe a little bit. But, you know, just...

I hate to use the cliché, but the way I was raised, I've got three kids, right? And I don't want to miss that. I don't want to be 95 and look back and say, I was president, but I didn't get to know my kids at all. I'd rather say, I f***ed up health care and everybody's healthier and everybody's got a better world to live in. And my kids and I are friends. We're close. They bring over the grandkids and the kids' kids. And that's just more important to me. Right. And do you have your eye on other...

INDUSTRIES RIGHT NOW WHERE YOU CAN DO SORT OF THE SAME KINDS OF THINGS? THERE'S PHARMACY AND COSTPLUSDRUGS.COM. I'M GOING TO GET THAT SALES PITCH IN THERE. COSTPLUSDRUGS.COM IS LITERALLY IN PROCESS OF HAVING A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON THE DRUG MARKET, RIGHT? WE ARE PUSHING GENERIC DRUGS DOWN NOW. WE'RE RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER FROM... BUT YOU'RE NEGOTIATING PRICES IN A WAY THAT HASN'T BEEN DONE PRIOR. RIGHT. SO WHEN YOU GO PRIOR TO US, THERE WAS NO TRANSPARENCY WHATSOEVER, RIGHT?

Right? And so nobody knew what the price of any medication was, whether you're an employer playing for your employees. And it's just run by these boards. Yeah, these pharmacy benefit managers are dictating prices left and right. They're basically stealing money from employers and employees. And so we walked in there and said, what's the one missing piece? Transparency. So when you go to costplusdrugs.com, you put in the name of the medication you might take. Let's just say Tadilafil, right? I know you don't know what that is. Sure, Tadilafil. Yeah, sure, Tadilafil. I'm so hopped up on Tadilafil right now. Yeah.

You have no idea. Do you know what it is? I don't. Generic Cialis. As I said before, I am so hot on streaming here.

So when you go to costlessdrugs.com and you put in Tadilafil or whatever, first thing we do is we show you our cost. Then we show you our markup, which is always 15%, and everybody gets the same price. Because we're mail-order to start, we're starting to partner with pharmacies now, there's a shipping fee, and then there's a fee for the pharmacist to review everything. And when you do it that way... And this is legal. Of course it's legal, yeah. It's good old American capitalism. But let me just tell you the impact. There are drugs that...

There's a drug called imatinib for chemotherapy. That when we started, the price of imatinib, if you just walked into a big pharmacy, a big chain pharmacy, was going to be $2,000. You go to costplusdrugs.com, it's under $30. There's a drug, droxodopa. That's just insane. I had a friend...

I had a friend, Landon, who was in this horrific car crash, and he needed this drug, Droxodopa. He lost his insurance. It was going to be $30,000 every three months. I'm like, let me just check to see if we can get it. $64 a month. And the price has gone down since. All because we were transparent. But, like, weren't there dudes like Martin Shkreli in jail for shit like that? Like, when you jack prices up like that, and why can't the United States government...

NEGOTIATE IN TERMS OF -- IF YOU'RE THE LARGEST CUSTOMER TO ANY INDUSTRY, IT'S CRIMINAL THAT YOU WOULDN'T USE ANY LEVERAGE TO MAKE THOSE THINGS MORE AVAILABLE TO PEOPLE. THE PROBLEM WAS THERE'S A THING CALLED PHARMACY BENEFIT MANAGERS, RIGHT? AND THEY'RE BASICALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR DOING THE NEGOTIATING WITH

to a certain extent, Medicare, but with all the large employers. If you're one of those big companies that cover 150 million employees across the country, that's who you negotiate with. And the first rule when they negotiate, they say is, you can't talk about this. It's like Fight Club. You cannot say what your price is. You can't say what we're doing in our negotiation. And they got so big doing that that nobody ever

question them. We come along, and actually Martin Shkreli plays a little part in this whole thing because when he got thrown in jail, I was talking to Alex Lashmiansky, my partner, and it's like, if this dude can just jack up the price, it is not an efficient market. That means nobody knows what the real cost is. If we publish our price

Boom, the whole world's going to change. And as it turns out, the FTC just came out with this report criticizing the PBMs. They used our pricing data. The smartest thing we did was... So now, so this brings up, so FTC is the Federal Trade Commission, and boy, there's nothing the tech world hates more than the FTC. Than the FTC. So how does that square? Well, you know, like any agency, they do something's right and something's wrong, so...

But in this case with the PBMs, they're crushing them, and it's justified. Now, is it something that can't be done throughout the health care? Because one of the difficulties with health care is the contingencies of...

you can't really comparison shop when you have a heart attack like you're basically saying drive me to the closest hospital take care of but those prices you're talking about it you could get heart attack treatment of this hospital to $150,000 but you go up the street and it's 12,000 it's all about you know what's the and what happens is who's paying when you you know got to have a heart attack and you go there and let's just say it's going through your employer right your employer has no idea what their pain and so what we're saying is on

drugs first, and now we're just getting it approved today, we're going to publish all contracts. Never before has it been done where, for my companies, we're saying, if you want to do business with us, if this hospital system wants to work with my companies, whatever it may be, we're going to publish them and put them online for anybody to see all of our pricing. I think that's fantastic. But I'm curious, then, why is there such...

Push back on this idea of applying those same kinds of competitions and things to our health care system. You know, we talk about we have got a privatized health care system and it's the best in the world. But very clearly, it doesn't function like a free market. No, it's not in any way at all. So what is so terrible about getting everybody health care? Like, why is that? But these companies, these PBMs and the big insurance companies, they call them the Bucas, the largest insurance companies. Right. Right.

They are so big, like I keep on saying, big employers cover 150 million people, right? And the CEO of this big company doesn't know much about health care and their health care costs. And so they just say to them, okay, we're going to write you a check for a rebate, even though it's your sickest employees that are paying for that rebate. Right. They just don't know. It's so interesting because it's such a non-villainous thing.

you know, nobody ever talks about like big prescription benefit manager. Right, like that's a good thing. It's always like big oil is going to come down or big tobacco or big pharma. And it's really like the big middle manager. Yeah, that's what it is. Right. And you cut them out. Right. There's no reason for the big ones that control 90 percent of the prescriptions that are filled. There's no reason for them to exist. There are others that are called pass through PBMs. Right. That show you all your claims, show you all your data, show you all your pricing that do it for a fraction of the price.

Right. So there's an opportunity. Disruption, baby. Disruption, baby. That's what I like to see. What's that now? What else do you have your eye on? Healthcare. Healthcare. It's going to be healthcare. Healthcare, yeah. I'm with that. I'm with that, too. And it might be, you know, with that money, if you could help the Knicks. Okay, forget it. No, everything's fine. It's all fine. Let's go, Mavs. No, stop it. Thank you very much for coming by. Thank you. It was always a fascinating conversation. Check out costplusdrugs.com. Mark Cuban.

Explore more shows from the Daily Show Podcast universe by searching The Daily Show, wherever you get your podcasts. Watch The Daily Show weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central, and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount+. Paramount Podcasts.

Welcome to the Cooper residence. Cooper McAllister. I'm surprised you put my name first. Come on in. From the brains behind the Big Bang Theory and Young Sheldon, CBS is excited to welcome back some beloved, familiar folks. I am so glad that you and Cece are here. And Georgie. Atta girl. It's a whole new chapter. Georgie and Mandy's first marriage premieres CBS Thursday, 8, 7 Central and streaming on Paramount+.

John Stewart here. Unbelievably exciting news. My new podcast, The Weekly Show. We're going to be talking about the election, economics, ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. Listen to The Weekly Show with John Stewart wherever you get your podcasts.