Trump Revives Birtherism
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Book your trip at ococean.com. Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. On today's show, with Kamala Harris' VP announcement imminent, we'll read the tea leaves and talk through the shortlist. We'll also talk about how, as we suspected, Trump already seems to be regretting his VP pick. And reports of Project 2025's demise may be greatly exaggerated. But first, the fallout continues from one of the...

worst, most deranged interviews Donald Trump has ever given, which is saying a lot. His live appearance on Wednesday at the National Association of Black Journalists Convention. So Lovett and Stacey Abrams reacted in real time on the Wednesday pod, but there have been some developments since then that have kept this story going, namely the fact that Trump and his campaign have decided to double down on his accusation that Kamala Harris isn't really black.

and the vice president's response at an event that evening in Houston. Let's listen first as a refresher to Trump's comments, and then you'll hear what the VP said in response. Some of your own supporters, including Republicans on Capitol Hill, have labeled Vice President Kamala Harris, who is the first black and Asian American woman to serve as vice president and be on a major party ticket, as a DEI hire. Is that acceptable language to you?

How do you define DEI? Go ahead. How do you define it? Diversity, equity, inclusion. Okay, yeah, go ahead. Is that what your definition? That is literally the words, DEI. Give me a definition then. Would you give me a definition of that? Give me a definition of that. Sir, I'm asking you a question, a very direct question. No, no, you have to define it. Define it for me if you will. I just defined it, sir. She was always of Indian heritage and she was only promoting Indian heritage. I didn't know she was black.

until a number of years ago when she happened to turn black and now she wants to be known as black. So I don't know, is she Indian or is she black? Donald Trump spoke at the annual meeting of the National Association of Black Journalists and it was the same old show. The divisiveness and the disrespect. And let me just say, the American people deserve better. The American people deserve better.

All right. Let's start with the man who's had a spiritual awakening since his assassination attempt. What the hell do you think Donald Trump was up to with that response and that whole interview? Like the entire interview, he was just unhinged, unhinged.

I think I've now listened to this interview several times. I've listened to it too. It's funny. Like I, last night I had watched it. Tommy had it on his computer when it was happening. And so I started, I tuned in cause I was so busy. I didn't even know what was happening. And then I went home last night just cause I was so stunned by

Not like surprising because nothing about Donald Trump is surprising, but just shocking. And watched the whole thing again. And it was even worse the second time. I was traveling back home from a family trip and I was in the airport and I was like following the slacks coming in and the texts. And I was like, this seems bad with my family. My parents are like, how bad is it? I was like, I don't know what's happening, but it seems very bad. And the, well, let me just say that in listening to it, the true, the part that's not getting enough attention is,

Because it might be the funniest part in what is...

largely an unfunny and highly offensive interview is when he keeps asking her to find DEI and she keeps, I was just going to say that words. She's like, that is the literal definition, but it's obviously he doesn't, he doesn't really get, he knows that there's a DEI attack that the right wing has been using and that it's like, it's, you know, uh, it's, it's, it's racist and you know, he can, or, or it's a, it's a wedge issue that they can use. He like gets the politics around it, but he has no fucking idea what DEI is. I think he thinks it's a word, not an acronym.

Which is why he was so confused by her saying it. Like, he thinks it's like, I would love to see him try to spell it. I mean, let's start with why he was at the National Association of Black Journalists to begin with. I can sort of see...

the meeting weeks ago, maybe months ago in the Trump campaign headquarters where they decided to do this. At the time they're running against Joe Biden, we know from all the interviews that Chris LaCivita and Susie Wiles have done to tell us how smart they think they are, that black men are a huge target for the Trump campaign. They go out. So in their minds, we can go to the National Association of Black Journalists, talk to all of the black media in one fell swoop,

And a Republican president who's been repeatedly called a racist by Democrats showing up at NABJ would be a grand gesture to show that he's courting their vote, that he is actually, unlike most Republican presidents in the past, he's actively seeking the votes of the black community. And they knew too that Joe Biden, at least in polling, was having trouble with younger black voters. It was highly unlikely to go do an interview at NABJ. So he would have the stage to himself.

Yep. Now that is one of the things that makes like, that's an idea in theory, but if Chris Lassevide and Susie Wallace were as smart as they want us to think they are, they would have remembered their candidate is a racist asshole. Yeah.

who also cannot and will not – he doesn't like tough questions, and he really doesn't like them from black women. And so this – even if we end up in this place where he was clearly reeling from how the race has shifted and all the momentum that Kamala Harris has and seeing her fill arenas and the polls tightening and all of that, just in any scenario, even if he was still in his coronation phase against Joe Biden –

He still was going to have to answer these questions in front of – with very good journalists asking himself questions, and he was going to melt down there. Maybe not to this degree, but he was definitely going to melt down on that stage. It was a – one of those things that's a good idea in theory, but theory fails to account for the fact that Donald Trump is the candidate.

Yeah. And I also think right before he did the interview, he had some crazy post about like, I thought we tried to do this on Zoom and it's and now Kamala Harris is not doing it on or gets to do it on Zoom. And now I have to be there in person. I would not be surprised if when the race changed and he knew it was just him and Kamala.

And then he was like, oh, now I have to go to the National Association of Black Journalists. He was already probably, you know, he probably wanted to do it over Zoom and not actually go there. Then he goes there. And then I'm sure because he's Donald Trump and he thinks he's fucking great. He thought that the first question was going to be like, hey, you know, Mr. President, thank you for being here. And what's your plan on, you know, and the fact that.

The first question was so pointed about all of the, you know, you had a dinner with a white supremacist. You have, you know, said all these racist things. I think that when you challenge Trump like that, we've seen this with other interviewers, too. The few that actually really push and challenge him, that's when he loses his shit. It was similar to that Brett Baer interview when he went through all the people in Trump's cabinet and team who had turned against him. Right. And Trump melted down about that, too.

Yeah, so some people are like, was it a strategy to say that? It's possible. Anything is possible with Donald Trump and his campaign. But...

Having watched him for the last eight years, it just seems like when you challenge Donald Trump, when you corner Donald Trump, when he's already upset, he's going to say crazy shit, racist shit, sexist shit. It just comes out. And like, I don't. So now what happened next, I think, is clearly strategic. Well, but in quotes, in quote, right. We can debate that. I don't want to ruin your day, but I want you to know it's just been nine years.

We've been podcasting about Donald Trump for nine years. Yeah, we did something wrong in another life. Well, I guess we've been podcasting about him for eight years, but we've been watching Donald Trump for nine years, just to be factually accurate. So after it happens, he doubles down and the campaign doubles down. At his rally that night in Harrisburg, the campaign projected an image of a business insider headline that noted how Harris became California's first Indian American senator,

which is true. Trump also posted a video clip of Kamala cooking Indian food with Mindy Kaling and said, quote, crazy Kamala is saying she's Indian, not black, stone cold phony. She uses everybody, including her racial identity.

Why does he and the campaign think that this is like a winner for them? Why are they what's what's what do you think is the only thing I can think of on the doubling down is like one of the first principles for Donald Trump and all the people around him is never apologize, never back down, just like lean into any kind of gaffe or controversial statement you make.

I think there is some of that for sure. It's like what did Lovett used to call them? Intellectual Zambonis who would go around behind Trump and like clean up the mess. I think he's like strategic Zambonis here. I think that there is a strategy that is a very tried and true, very misogynistic strategy often used against female candidates and female candidates of color, which is to paint them as overly ambitious, do anything for power. And so what I think –

Take away the way Donald Trump did this, like his execution of their plan was horrendous and offensive and counterproductive and probably hurt him in ways that we can talk about.

I think the campaign's message is they're racing to define Kamala Harris, and they want to do this argument where she said she was black when it helped her in this way. She said she was Indian when it helped her in this way, as a way to make her seem unprincipled, phony. We've seen this strategy run against candidates, especially women candidates, all the time from Republicans. Trump just did it in a way that was such an unsubtle sledgehammer that it kind of blew up in his face. Could I just...

point out why it's so fucking stupid and like where it's coming from. That's not only in Donald Trump's mind, but like a broader feeling on the right with some of this DEI bullshit. It's like, like, first of all, Kamala Harris, her mother came here from India. Her father came here from Jamaica. She has talked about that for her entire career and,

She has written about it in her book. She's given speeches about it when she became the vice president. All of the stories everywhere said that she was the first black and South Asian woman to be vice president. A lot of firsts. There was a whole millions of headlines about that. So the idea that it was

or she turned black is just nonsense, right? She went to a historically black college. She went to Howard. Yes, she joined a historically black sorority. Yes. But they are trying to argue that somehow being black...

Or presenting as black is an advantage, is a political advantage in some places because everyone knows that black Americans, you know, they have all this privilege and advantage, right? Historically, right? And that sometimes saying that you have Indian heritage gives you some advantage politically, which is just, it's so fucking preposterous, but it's exactly how the right thinks now, which is like,

Oh, well, if you're white, you know, you have to work hard and get ahead. But if you're black or if you're some other minority, then the way that society is now and where's DEI and everything else, then you get an advantage that other people don't get. That's the real racist part of it. And that's what he was really getting at.

It is a – without using the acronym slash word, it's a way of making – of arguing she's a DEI candidate. She could never have succeeded in this way on her own because it is impossible for these Republicans to fathom the idea that a woman or a black woman or Indian woman could best them in all these ways to achieve what she has achieved, to win the election she's won, to advance in the career. They can't comprehend that. They get to this also because they live –

Kamala Harris's story, the fact that she's black and Indian, is also an anathema to their view of America. What Trump is really arguing is that he is a bulwark against changes in this country that mean that white men are going to have less power to become a more diverse country. And so the idea of Kamala Harris is that argument.

As Barack Obama in the same way. It was something they could not comprehend. They could not wrap their mind around. And so they must lash out at it in the most offensive ways possible. Like it does not compute in their mind that she could have achieved everything she achieved based on her hard work, her talent, her brains, her grit, all of that. Like that does not – that is not in their worldview. It is not possible for them. Kamala Harris who –

has won more elections than Donald Trump and JD Vance combined, who has more political experience in years than Donald Trump and

and J.D. Vance combined, who won the race for attorney general, a close race for attorney general, particularly the primary in the largest state in the country, who won a race for U.S. Senate in the largest state in the country, the fifth largest economy in the world, and then who went on to run for president and get selected as vice president and then just spent four years working with Joe Biden in the White House. That's the that is the the DEI candidate.

that they are denigrating there. Just the other thing, I was on the Bulwark podcast today with Tim Miller and something he pointed out that had not occurred to me, J.D. Vance's kids. I know, which I didn't even want to mention because it's like they're his kids, but like, oh my God. I didn't want to bring him up either, but he got asked about it and just basically stuck with Trump instead of pushing back anyways, even separating himself in the most mild way to acknowledge the complexity of American life.

Also Donald Trump, like Donald Trump's daddy gave him a bunch of money and then he swindled his way to his fortune. That's, that's how Donald Trump got where he is. That's Donald Trump's advantage. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, his, his DEI is just being a, being a rich Phil son.

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Remember to head to zbiotics.com slash cricket and use the code cricket at checkout for 15% off. Thank you, Zbiotics, for sponsoring this episode and our good times. So, what did you make of Kamala Harris' response? I loved it. I loved it as well, but I want to hear why you loved it. Okay, so...

I had a couple of people say to me, you know, Trump doing this and everyone calling him racist and him taking over the news cycle with this. It's giving me 2016 vibes where we were all like, oh, Trump every day was saying something sexist about Hillary or then he was saying something racist about someone else. And suddenly that became the campaign. And we all thought, oh, of course he's going to lose. And then he wins. Right. And I do think that not just the Clinton campaign, but the whole Democratic Party is sort of

learned over the last several years that he wants us to take the bait, right? He wants, he is, was desperate for the Harris campaign and Democrats to be like, you're a racist. Let's talk. And then he's like, I didn't say anything racist. I said that she's just trying to prove that she's not really black, you know, like, and they want that. And the fact that Kamala Harris stood up there and said it was disrespectful. Like he always is.

and it's divisive, which he always is, but same old story, same old act. We're all tired of it. We've been hearing it for nine years. There's nothing new. It's complete bullshit. This is why we need to move forward. This is why we need to turn the page.

It is the strongest argument and it prevents her from getting sucked in. And it's also not ignoring it altogether because I'm sure some people, oh, she should ignore it. You can't ignore it. But I think lifting it up and making it about it's not a fight between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. He wants it to be a personal fight between the two of them.

What she needs to do is every time he does this, talk about like, this is a race about the people of this country and living in an inclusive, diverse country where every single person has the chance to get ahead. That's what this race is about. He doesn't want it to be about that. He wants to be about like lobbing insults at me and everyone else because that's who he is. We're so tired of that. Let's move on.

I thought what I loved about it was she seemed overjoyed to take it on. Like she almost laughed in that clip right before she started because she was ready for it. You're right. It wasn't in anger. It wasn't about her. It was about taking it back on downtrodden and then fitting it back in her frame. And I love when she said same old stuff, right? We've seen it. It's the past. We're focused on the future. And there is something –

And this is what I have loved about their campaign to date, is they take everything as an opportunity to push their frame. They're fighting the war, not the individual battles. Because there was just something inherently old in past about not understanding people's complex identities in 2024. Yeah.

It is an old man thing, right? It is an old, out of touch, 78 year old rich guy who lives in Palm Beach who doesn't get it. Because, you know, tens of millions of Americans identify as biracial, right? Everyone knows someone in their family, their friends who it's a, you know, white mom, black dad, you know, everything, right? And how people talk about it and think about it.

And, you know, and this is we dealt with this with Obama, too. Right. This was the whole thing. Obama's not black enough. All those things. And people got it. You never had to be explained because they understand they see it in their lives. And Donald Trump just looks like a like an old fart. He doesn't get it. And that's what you want. Right. This is that is how this race is fundamentally shifted in the last two weeks is it is we have gone from present first near past to future first past. Trump is the past.

An old fart and an old fart who's fucking scared. Yeah. Like he looked and sounded weak doing that. Like I know his whole thing and the whole race against Joe Biden was strength and Joe Biden's weak. But Donald Trump lashing out like that makes him seem small and weak. It did not come from a position of strength. No.

So, of course, J.D. Vance joined in the stupidity in Arizona on Wednesday night. He called Harris a, quote, phony in his remarks and later added that she has a, quote, fundamental chameleon-like nature, that she is, quote, not who she pretends to be. And he also accused her of faking a Southern accent in her Atlanta rally after his event.

Then he went back to defending his comments that not having children makes you, quote, sociopathic. When reporters asked him, Vance said, quote, I'm happy to defend what I said because what I said is true in a clip that the Harris campaign immediately circulated. Good for him.

Good for them. So we've been wondering when Trump is going to get tired of the J.D. Vance routine. It seems like the time might be now. He was asked about Vance at the NABJ event. This didn't get, obviously, as much attention for good reason. But here's what he said when he was asked about J.D. Vance. When you look at J.D. Vance, is he ready on day one? Does he what? Ready on day one, if he has to be. I've always had great respect for him.

And for the other candidates too, but I will say this and I think this is well documented Historically the vice president in terms of the election does not have any impact. I mean virtually no impact. I

I just can't. We knew it. Honestly, I thought it would come as a leak first, or I thought that maybe Trump would try to dress it up a little more. But he basically stuck two daggers in. He was asked, is he ready on day one? And his response is, is he ready to be president on day one? And his response is, the VP doesn't matter. Yeah.

Because you can always, we've now been watching this sad, sad man in the public sphere for so long. You also know this is the conversation he's been having with a bunch of rich Palm Beach donor types who are asking whether he fucked up the JD Vance pick. And his answer is he can't defend it because there's no upside there at all. But he would just say, does it matter? And he's like, historically, it doesn't matter.

It's not exactly true, but it's kind of true. Also, just the way he mentioned that he liked the other people too. And he did say another little... That got me nervous that I'm like, oh no, he's going to drop him. I think there's a chance he could, but I also love that he said he always had great respect for him. Yeah. And also, you know for Trump. Meaning like until I didn't know any of this shit was going to happen. That's basically what he was trying to say. I mean, Don Jr...

had his one moment in the sun where his dad pretended like he loved him on stage at the convention. And now he is fucked. He has fallen so far below Eric. He might be below Tiffany now in the family inheritance. How long does Donald Trump have to do something about J.D. Vance if he wanted to drop him from the ticket? Don't they have to print ballots somewhat soon? Soon-ish. I don't think we're at ballot printing yet, but we're getting pretty close because we're not that far away from early votes starting in a handful of states. So you could, I mean, you can still...

Do the switch after the ballot printing, but you'd much prefer not to. That's actually a really good question for an attorney, which we know someone we could ask, because I know what happened, how tricky it is. The top of the ticket person is, but I don't know what would happen if it's the wrong person on the ballot or on the bottom. Like if it is all of a sudden it was Trump, Burgum, what that would do. But yeah, but basically I think he would have like maybe a week at most to probably do this.

I also can't imagine it being Burgum as a replacement because it's like, we're going to drop J.D. Vance, but don't you worry, everyone. We got Doug Burgum. I mean, I don't know anyone who would be exciting for people, but like even Rubio, I guess, would be better at that point. I don't know. You know, there's a conversation happening somewhere in Mar-a-Lago or in the Trump campaign somewhere where they're whispering about like, well...

He could ditch J.D. Vance maybe during the Democratic Convention, step on her speech, do something like that, get a press hit or maybe do it the day after. Like they're thinking about it. I guess August 7th would be the probably the deadline because that was the Ohio ballot. And like Kamala Harris could become president without Ohio. Donald Trump cannot. So, yeah, August 7th, you have to switch.

And then the RNC would have some process by which they just rubber stamped whoever their replacement would be. The new, yeah. There was also reporting in the Bulwark that everyone on the Trump team thinks that Kellyanne Conway, who was in favor of Rubio for the VP pick, is leaking internal doubts about Vance. She didn't exactly deny it to Mark Caputo at the Bulwark interview.

What do you think is going on there? Is that just internal sniping where the campaign's pissed at Kellyanne and Kellyanne is sniping back? What's going on there? I mean, who knows with these people? One thing that's pretty clear from seeing Kellyanne over all these years is she really wants people to think she's right. Right and in the know. The piece said that

She bristled at the suggestion that she's not still advising Donald Trump. And she's like, I advise him all the time. I mean, yes, that is very clear that she that in any conversation she has, she must put herself in the center of all big decisions in Trump land. And so you can just see a world where she's telling people that she was in the room pushing for Rubio or whoever else. And so she's not responsible for this numbskull who keeps saying crazy shit. So, yeah, it is. You know, this is awesome.

It's another sign that wheels are coming off because that's, this was like a flashback to 2017 and 2021 Axios stories about various people knifing each other in Trump world. Like there's been none of that throughout this campaign. It's like,

For like we've joked about the famously disciplined Trump campaign. But one way where they have been more coherent is that there is less there's less of that internal drama spilling out into the pages of Politico and Axios. And this is kind of the bulwark in this case. And this is the first time that's happening. So that's also a sign that they are they are on their heels since Kamala Harris became the presumptive Democratic nominee.

Of course, time is a flat circle. So all of the Trump campaign internal sniping stories are coming back one more time. Because those stories always come if history says anything.

14 to 21 days after the Trump is a changed man stories. So we're right. We're right on schedule here. Yeah, we are. We are. All right. Lastly, before we move off of this horror show of an interview forever, Rachel Scott also asked Trump whether he can legitimately claim to be the candidate of law and order when he wants to pardon the January 6th rioters.

Here's what he said. My question is on those rioters who assaulted officers. Would you pardon those people? Oh, absolutely I would. If they're innocent, I would pardon them. They've been convicted. And by the way, the Supreme Court just under... He would pardon people who have been convicted of physically assaulting police officers. In some cases, giving them injuries that they are still recovering from right now. And...

We didn't play it in the clip, but afterwards, when she says, well, they've been convicted, he's like, yeah, but this system, you know, this unfair system. So again...

Convictions only count, in Trump's mind, when they are convictions against people he does not like, when they are convictions against people that support him or the people that he likes. They do not matter. That is the guy who wants to be the chief law enforcement officer in this country and execute our laws. Cool stuff. I mean, it is. That's going to be the worst politics. I mean, I just...

Like, I know I could see in the last couple of months there were a few quotes here and there from people in the Trump orbit that they were like maybe trying to walk back the pardon thing by saying, well, he wants to he wouldn't pardon the rioters who've been convicted of physical assault. It's the it's the ones who've been convicted of like trespassing or just been sitting in jail. And all they did was just walk into the Capitol. Right. Like he right. Just physically assaulting police officers.

Sure. Pardoned. I mean, that to me is an ad. That's an ad right there.

Look, there are lots – majorities of Republicans believe that the election was stolen. Many of them believe that Trump did nothing wrong on January 6th. They have better feelings about – they think some of the convictions were wrong, the system is broken. But they really do not like the people who actually went into the Capitol and even a lot of Republicans do not think they should be pardoned. And so Trump is – you're right. He is zoned in on – there's no more – there's no less popular way to talk about this than Trump is doing it. Like he is – it is – he's just –

It's bizarre almost. There has always been this self-destructive impulse in him, and it is coming out in full flower right now.

God, this is why I want the debate so badly, because can you imagine? Yeah, I know. And again, the last debate, it probably would have happened. He would have been self-destructive had Biden not had the night that he had. But, you know, he wasn't challenged. And I think if he's challenged in a debate, which I'm sure Kamala Harris would do, and I'm sure the moderators would do as well.

Who knows? Who knows what we'll see? Speaking of political liabilities, Project 2025 is, quote, winding down its policy operations, according to The Washington Post, and the guy who was running it stepped down. This was also a fun reminder that Project 2025 isn't just a document full of terrible and unpopular ideas. It was also a staffing operation run out of the Heritage Foundation to act specifically as an administration in waiting for Donald Trump to

And it was filled with over 200 people who worked in the last Trump administration, including some very senior advisors and a handful of cabinet secretaries. Anyway, the Trump campaign released a statement saying, quote, Reports of Project 2025's demise would be greatly welcomed and should serve as notice to anyone or any group trying to misrepresent their influence with President Trump and his campaign. It will not end well for you.

Okay. Not everyone's so happy about this on the right. Molly Hemingway, the editor-in-chief of The Federalist, tweeted, Trump world bows down to left-wing media lies and keeps signaling he doesn't want his most loyal foot soldiers who kept with him even when very few others did or their conservative ideas in his next administration. Interesting.

Thank you, Molly Hemingway. What do you think has really been going on behind the scenes between Project 2025 and the Trump people? I think the Trump people really wanted the Project 2025 people to shut the hell up, right? Like there was no need. They did this all publicly as a way to raise money for the Heritage Foundation and raise the relevance of the Heritage Foundation, a group that was very dominant for a long time in public politics and sort of fell out of favor for a long time.

And like they want all the work. They want the lists. They want the ideas. They just don't want the bad press. And this is something that had been getting a ton of attention. Democrats were utilizing it very well. And so they wanted people to shut up. Now, it's important to note that Donald Trump is the official nominee of the Republican Party. Next, in a couple of weeks, Kamala Harris will be the official nominee of the Democratic Party. And what that will mean is that the federally funded transition operations will begin.

So they don't need Project 2025 in two weeks to staff the government with all these apparatchiks. Like they can do it. They're going to – taxpayer dollars will be helping them do it by Labor Day. It's interesting. When you said that, I thought, oh, now we're going to know – like the transition is going to get staffed with people who were part of Project 2025. Like that is inevitable. Yeah.

Yeah, it won't be the people who are the head of it, obviously. No, because they want to be careful. But it's going to become obvious pretty soon that, of course, the Trump campaign embraces both the people and the ideas of Project 2025. Obviously. Of course, they're going to do it. There's not even a question in my mind. There is no question in my mind that...

Were Trump to win the White House, Project 2025 will be their 100-day, their 200-day, their 300-day, their first-term plan. That is what they're going to do. And the people on that list are going to be working in that government. Because do you think the Trump people are out there just really combing through LinkedIn looking for undersecretaries of natural resources? There's –

Of course not. There's no one left. They had like dozens of senior advisors and national security people and cabinet secretaries who've said that Trump is dangerous and a threat and would never work for him again. A whole bunch of other people who probably have legal bills from the last Trump administration. Like they don't have a lot of choices. So, of course, that's how they're going to staff their government. And the idea that because, you know, I...

You talk about sort of the Democratic strategy moving forward on Project 2025. The idea that Donald Trump is somehow separate from these ideas or doesn't embrace most of these ideas like he's already come out for eliminating the Department of Education, rolling back all of Joe Biden's environmental regulations, getting rid of most of the nonpolitical appointees in the federal government to replace them with MAGA loyalists.

He included Medicare and Social Security cuts in every single budget he proposed every year he was president. Like all of this stuff he's already agreed to, you know? And so I don't know. Is there anything else that you think Democrats should do going forward on this? I think we never stop talking about it. We keep pushing. We do not take no for an answer here, right? This is their agenda. I would start joking too about...

Donald Trump saying things like, I know nothing about Project 2025. I think some of the points are fine. Some of them I disagree with. I've never read the document. I think some of the points are good. I have no idea who's behind it. More than 200 people who used to work for me run it. There's a mocking there.

that I think is important because some people will think, oh, well, he's disavowed Project 2025. He says he has nothing to do with it. And I think it's important to remind people that he's full of shit. There was plenty of great mainstream press coverage of Project 2025. The press did a very good job of it. Really good job. But the reason why it broke through was people took it online and started creating their own content about it. It really was like we are now living in a

you know, brat summer, coconut pilled abundance of pro Kamala anti-Trump media. But the one success we had prior to the change in candidacy was a lot of people made some great videos and content about project 2025 that really scared the shit of a lot of people and they got, and they got shared. And so you can do continue. We should continue to do that. There's, I mean, these are,

you know, cheesecake factory menus, lists of bad policies that we can, uh, continue to do and people should keep doing and pushing it out there. Cause then you're, if you're trying to litigate this in the free press, like what the Trump people accomplished here is getting the, you know, you can see the debate where the moderator is says to Kamala Harris, uh,

But the Trump campaign, but the project has ended, right? Or in a press conference or an interview that she is doing, not an interview here, an interview with more credulous mainstream media. But on social media, continue to educate people about it because you are in the correct, you are in the right if you are pushing this out there and explaining to people what it is, because that is a Trump agenda, whether they disavow this staffing plan or not.

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Book your trip at ococean.com. All right, we are down to the final few days until VP Harris selects a VP of her own. As a reminder, the reporting is that she's going to do a rally on Tuesday. Introducing her running mate, that rally is in Philadelphia. Stoking a lot of speculation that the pick would be Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro. The campaign said...

Not to read too much into the location, but then today NBC News reported that Shapiro had canceled some fundraisers that were scheduled for this weekend. And Shapiro's folks confirmed that. They also reported that Shapiro met with Harris's vetting team on Wednesday. Harris wasn't there apparently, but reportedly the vetting team had very similar meetings with Shapiro.

Arizona Senator Mark Kelly, Minnesota Governor Tim Walz, Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker, Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear, and Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg. How much do you read into all the signs that are pointing towards Shapiro? Do not read anything into the signs. There are no clues. I think it's helpful for you and I to explain how this worked when Barack Obama picked Joe Biden. Yeah. We were in the know. We were seniorish staffers on that campaign.

Up until hours before the announcement, your team was writing three different speeches, right? You wrote a speech for Joe Biden. Well, I'll tell you what happened. Yes, we were supposed to write all three speeches. I wrote the Joe Biden speech because I was getting vibes that it might be Joe Biden. And then someone else wrote the Evan Bayh speech and someone else wrote the Tim Kaine speech. And I think that I edited the Tim Kaine speech. I don't even think I looked at the Evan Bayh speech.

I was like, he's not picking up and bye. But so I like had a sense that it was Joe Biden, but you're right. That was all I knew. And we had to do three speeches. Right. We had three communications plans. There were three sets of signs that were made. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so this idea that

Because it's the most closely held secret in the entire campaign. I'm sure the campaign wants to tell their supporters before anyone else knows. So the idea that the advance team knows it's Josh Shapiro, so they booked a rally in Pennsylvania, that is not it. The reason the rally's in Pennsylvania is because Pennsylvania is the most important state for...

for Kamala Harris and Donald Trump to get to 270. And it's the closest to Washington, D.C. and Wilmington where the campaign is. And so if you're doing a battleground state tour, it makes sense just logistically to start in Philly. That's so funny you say that. It had not occurred to me until now that the campaign is still in Wilmington, Delaware, even though Kamala Harris is from Oakland, which is so... I know. I mean, look, I love my home city.

But I think it's I've heard that it's split. Like there are some people who are working out of D.C. and there's some people who are still working out of Wilmington. So, yeah, we'll say. And the idea this idea, Josh Shapiro may be canceling his fundraisers because he's probably been told, as have the other finalists, to keep their weekends open for some sort of secret meeting with Kamala Harris. They're not going to she's not going to pick. That was my thought on that one.

And the other thing you mentioned about campaign fundraisers telling people that they should give now because there are certain laws about people who do business with the state giving for governors, the fundraisers also don't know. No one knows. No one would tell a fucking fundraiser. Here's the thing. If the fundraiser knows, you know. The fundraiser knows, failure. You have failed. And so-

I don't know that she, I, she probably has not made her decision yet. She apparently hasn't met with the, with the finalists yet. The, she probably has an idea of who she was thinking. Like I, Obama clearly was very much leading towards Joe Biden when he, I think when he did those final meetings with the folks, but it's probably Kamala Harris, Jenna, Mally, Dylan, one or two other people over on our closest team who have any sense of where her head is on this. And so all the clues are fake. It's all just noise.

So some lefty groups like the Democratic Socialists of America and the Uncommitted Movement are making it known that they would not be happy with Shapiro on the ticket, mainly because they think the Jewish governor is too pro-Israel, even though he's called Netanyahu one of the worst leaders of all time, and notably has taken positions on Gaza that are no different than any of the other VP contenders. What do you think about that? I think it makes me deeply uncomfortable that you would have that position specifically for Governor Shapiro.

Yeah. Who's the only one who's Jewish. Yeah. And even beyond that, just for people's understanding, what matters here is Kamala Harris's position. Right. And just to give you an example from our life, Barack Obama's signature issue was his opposition to the Iraq war. Joe Biden voted for the Iraq war. It was a longtime defender of the Iraq war. It became Barack Obama's running mate and became then an advocate for Barack Obama's position for ending the Iraq war. Right. That like that, his position was,

for he to be the VP nominee will be what her position is. And so if you're comfortable with her position, and you may not be, right? And you may want to push her to change or whatever else, but her position is a dominant position here on this issue and every other issue. And guess what? Kamala Harris, who's now getting attacked for a position she took in 2019 and 2020 in that primary,

All of her positions are changed now because they were changed when she got to the White House because her positions were Joe Biden's positions. Yeah. That's just what you said. That's what happens with the VP. And if Josh Shapiro serves in this White House, his positions are going to be Kamala Harris's positions. Aside from that, the reason that Josh Shapiro keeps getting mentioned and he keeps popping up at the top of the list is...

The guy has a 60% approval rating in Pennsylvania. He has won elections there by a good deal. He outran John Fetterman in 2022. Now, of course, he was running against Doug Mastriano, who is somehow even a worse candidate than Dr. Oz, but he is wildly popular in Pennsylvania. And

There was a Fox poll, I believe, last week that tested what if it was Shapiro versus Trump in Pennsylvania and had him winning by 10 points. And I haven't seen any polling yet that tests how would Harris Shapiro fare against Trump Vance in Pennsylvania and like, would it make a difference on the ticket? So I haven't seen that polling yet. But if it helps a few points and everything else checks out well with Josh Shapiro and Pennsylvania is the tipping point state, then

in this election, the most important state to win, you could see why she would want to go for Josh Shapiro. Yeah, I mean, the polling is a little... Hypothetical polling is always a little sketchy. I have seen polling that asks people, Pennsylvania voters, would you be more...

or less likely to vote for Kamala Harris if Josh Shapiro was on the ticket. I've seen some question for Mark Kelly in Arizona. A lot of Pennsylvanians are more likely. Most of them will say it makes a majority will say it makes a difference. Some of them will say more and some and a tiny percentage will say yes. So yeah, we'll say it makes them less likely to vote. But the problem with that polling is you the sample sizes aren't good enough to know are the people who are saying more likely people were voting for Kamala Harris anyway.

So you don't really know. Whether it's Josh Shapiro or Mark Kelly in Arizona, history shows, and with all of these things, there's a very small sample size issue, but generally in the past, one to two points is what you can expect. It's considered the home state advantage. That has gone down in recent years as American politicians have gotten more polarized and more nationalized, but over the past, the home state advantage is greatly overstated, but

Pennsylvania is probably gonna be decided by two points. So when was the last time there was a VP on the ticket who was from a very competitive state that Paul Ryan in Wisconsin? I was no, I was going to say who who had who was a statewide official, right? Because Paul Ryan in Wisconsin, it's like he had a district there and I'm sure people in Wisconsin know him, but he didn't. He wasn't a statewide official in Wisconsin. Was it Gore in Tennessee? Yeah.

Although Tennessee back in what, in 1992, that wasn't like a make or break state, was it? Clinton won it easily in 92 and 96. That's right. But Gore obviously famously lost it in 2000. So in some cases, the home state advantage doesn't work. Ryan, I think Paul Ryan is-

It's the closest approximation because he's not a random congressman. He was a national figure with name ID sort of akin to a statewide elected official, but it's been a long time. The way they measure this generally is not in a battleground state. It doesn't have to be a battleground state. How did the state perform compared to how –

how the candidates perform nationally, right? Because it's a baseline. And so, you know, it's like Biden did, you know, Obama did a point or two better in Delaware than he otherwise would have done based on, but it's all very hard to disentangle what it means. So I think the thing is, it does not, picking Shapiro does not guarantee Pennsylvania. It may help. It may. And you say the same thing about Mark Kelly in Arizona. It may help. But if it does help, it's only going to help a little. Right. I think that's right. And so I think

At the end of the day, if you're Kamala Harris, you want someone, first of all, you want someone who can govern, right? Like a lot of these candidates and Barack Obama thought this too, which is like, I want to pick someone who, if something happens to me, then like, I feel they are ready on day one. Like Trump could not say about J.D. Vance.

And then you want someone that you like vibe with on the campaign trail, someone that you know, someone that you trust. Right. And so, you know, we can make all the political calculations and I'm sure that Harris campaign is doing that as well. But she's got to feel comfortable with this person.

And so what do you think about sort of the other contenders? I think, like you said, Kelly would potentially help with Arizona a little bit, which is a key state, not as key as Pennsylvania, not as many electoral votes. And she's probably behind there by more than she is in Pennsylvania. So that's something to consider. And then you've got Tim Walz, who it would be someone that you'd pick because

He makes a great argument. He's great on TV and, you know, could go to some of those Midwestern states and probably do well campaigning. I think Pete Buttigieg, excellent communicator, one of the best messengers in the party, also says nothing says future than Harris and Pete on the ticket together. So what do you think about some of the other possibilities? I actually think they're all great. Yeah, they really are. I actually would not be disappointed. There's not a bad choice in the group.

I didn't have strong feelings about Tim Walls, but then I listened to the interview with Lovett and he was awesome. And it did remind me that this will also date myself. Back in 2006, campaign ads didn't go viral back then because no way for them to go viral. But Tim Walls had an introductory ad that was based on his time as a football coach for his congressional run in 2006. It was one that everyone in town talked about and thought was like the best campaign.

out of the cycle which i looked for for at least seven minutes on youtube and i could not find but tim wallace is he hasn't got a great story he's a great candidate the internet has fallen in love with tim wallace like he is he is there's a lot of tim walls on tiktok these days um i mean kelly it has obviously his gravitas military experience astronaut gabby giffords you know um

you know, I think provides some ideological moderation and how he's sort of seen as a moderate, tough on the border. Particularly on border stuff, yes. Border issues.

He's definitely on paper the most impressive resume, right? But then the question is, we've seen a bunch of people who are on paper really good. It doesn't pan out. But on paper, I think you're right. An astronaut who was in the military and, I mean, yeah. Border state. He's had two really tough races. Two high-profile tough races. Shapiro has not had a tough race.

Right. That's because Doug Mastriano, kook. Yeah. And then his attorney general races, which was statewide. But it's not. He hasn't had a lot of money spent against him. So Kelly's been in the crucible. And so you can have some that gives you like there. It's hard to compare a Senate race to a presidential race. But at least you've seen he's had something. The other thing is it's Susan. I talked about the Susan Rice when I talked to her for last week's pod is all that stuff is interesting. But the president, the vice president have lunch together once a week.

And so you really do have to like, think about this. If you have to pick someone, like imagine you're hiring someone for your company and they're like, you're like, I am going to have to have lunch with this person once a week for the next 48 years. Like you really got to like the person for that. You really got to think it's been interesting, useful conversation. And honestly, honestly, that's why I hired love it to be the speechwriter in the white house.

Because I was like, I did the interviews. There's a lot of good candidates, a lot of good speeches. But at the end of the day, I was sitting there at Starbucks and he's making me laugh. And I'm like, I think I could hang out with this guy. 15 years later?

Yeah, boy. We're still eating lunch together. If only I could go back. Just kidding. Just kidding. Love it. Yeah, no, I agree. And also she knows Josh Shapiro because they were AGs together, the same class of AGs, and same thing with Bashir. We haven't talked about Bashir, but Andy Bashir is also that class of attorneys general. So some of these personal relationships probably matter as well. Well, we'll see. We'll see. We'll see if it leaks. The event's going to be Tuesday, so it might –

Really hoping it leaks before we record on Monday, but who knows? We have really gotten lucky with some news recently. So I think that this one is definitely, you're going to put that pot in the can and then it's going to pop right out. Yeah, probably. All right.

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