The "Let Trump Be Trump" Strategy
44:08 Share

Conclave is a gripping thriller from Academy Award-winning director Edward Berger, starring Ralph Fiennes, Stanley Tucci, John Lithgow, and Isabella Rossellini, only in theaters October 25th. The Pope is dead. The throne is vacant. Conclave is an unprecedented and illuminating glimpse into the inner workings of the Catholic Church as it follows one of the world's most secretive and ancient events, selecting the new Pope.

Conclave is only in theaters October 25th. Visit conclavethefilm.com to get tickets now.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau and hosting with me today, my friend, mentor, the man I miss working with every day, the brilliant David Axelrod is here. Oh, brother, good to see you. I guess the stars are on vacation and left you to man the ship here, huh?

Those boys are off doing something. They're doing something. I got all three PSAs this week. So on today's show, we're going to talk about Kamala Harris's plans to define her economic agenda this week. Tim Walz stepping out on his own with a big union speech. We're also less than a week away from the Democratic National Convention. So we'll talk about the opportunity there for the Harris team and what we're hoping to hear. But first...

Donald Trump just keeps reaching voters where they are with his hallmark message discipline, which is why I guess he appeared on a glitchy Twitter spaces feed with red-pilled billionaire Elon Musk that took about 40 minutes to get started because of all the tech issues. Once they finally got going, it was two hours of this.

Our country is becoming a very dangerous place. And she is a radical left San Francisco liberal. And now she's trying to protect. Now she's looking like she wants to be more Trump than Trump, if that's possible. I don't think it's possible. If she's going to be our president very quickly, you're not going to have a country anymore. And she'll go back to all of the things that she believes in. But she's getting a free ride. I saw a picture of her on Time magazine today.

She looked like the most beautiful actress ever to live. It was a drawing. And actually, she looked very much like our great first lady, Melania. She didn't look like Camilla. That's right. But of course, she's a beautiful woman. So we'll leave it at that. Now, Biden's, you know,

close to vegetable stage, in my opinion. Okay, I looked at him today on the beach and I said, why would anybody allow him? The guy could barely walk. Well, you, you're the greatest cutter. I mean, I look at what you do. You walk in and you just say, you want to quit? They go on strike. I won't mention the name of the company, but they go on strike and you say, that's okay, you're all gone. Yeah.

Axe, did you catch any of what the Trump campaign billed as the interview of the century? Yeah. Well, it felt like it took a century. I'll say that. In fact, the 40-minute delay was sort of a metaphor for where their campaign has been since Kamala Harris became the candidate because they can't get started. And it's just him out there really grieving the fact that this race that he thought he had won

is now competitive and he doesn't quite know how to handle her, uh, how to deal with her as a candidate. And you can see him just throwing stuff against the wall, which is how, by the way, he approaches his speeches. Uh, you know, at the, one of the notable things at the Republican convention was, um, you know, they, they,

They all said, well, this near-death experience of the assassination attempt has changed him. He's a changed man and he's ripped up his speech. And he really wants to talk about unity in this speech. Well, he talked about unity for about seven minutes. It wasn't going over well with the crowd at the convention. So he threw it out and just went back to his rip-snorting, divisive stand-up schtick.

that's what he's been there ever since. He has, he has. And, and, and really, I mean, we could talk a little bit about this sort of strategic or lack of strategic wisdom of that. But yeah, the interview was a disaster. And then my favorite part was Elon Musk trying to break in, you know, thinking, how am I going to dragoon this guy? Uh,

away from the mic for a second here. Yeah, it's too small ego. So it does seem like the, you know, some of the news out of that interview was he handed Democrats a bit of a win by praising Elon for firing workers who want to unionize. Yeah. UAW filed a complaint with the labor department after that for intimidation. Yep. And then the teamsters who, uh, president spoke at the Republican national convention, put out a statement calling it economic terrorism. Uh,

You think that's the message the Trump campaign was going for? No, you know, honestly, it does raise a serious question or should in the minds of union workers around the country. The fact that Trump so admires union busting tactics is.

should really tell them something. And I think it'd be harder for any labor leader with a straight face to go and talk to the members and say, you know, this is our guy after something like that. So, you know, I'm sure Musk was very excited to be lionized in that way. That probably, he felt, well, this really helps me. But no, listen, Donald Trump is out of control right now.

I think he is rattled. He feels like he could lose this race.

And remember, losing this race for him carries a much greater risk than it would for the normal candidate because he still has these legal issues to face, including one conviction with sentencing still awaiting. So, you know, I think that he is completely out of sync and out of sorts. And that's redounded, frankly, to Kamala Harris's benefit.

Well, let's talk about the Trump strategy, because I noticed this morning just before we started recording that Trump is scheduling another press conference for Thursday outside of at his at Bedminster, his country club in New Jersey. So it sort of feels like they're going with a let Trump be Trump strategy. Yeah.

Or like a more Trump is better strategy? Do you think that's smart? No. And I wonder how much that is their strategy and how much that it's his strategy, you know, because Trump believes that he is the best ball carrier.

And his idea is, just call my number on every play and we'll get to the end zone. And he keeps going backwards. And he keeps getting tackled behind the line of scrimmage. And yet he wants to get up and call the same play again. No, it doesn't make any sense. You know, look, if you were over there, if you were saying, well, what would be a sensible strategy? What you'd try and do is make her the incumbent.

You try and link her to, you know, Biden's economic policies and, you know, all the things that, you know, certainly the border, which they're trying to do. But what's happened and what they've allowed to happen is she has become the turn the page candidate in this race. She is the vice president of the United States, and yet she is the turn the page candidate in this race. She has changed. He is the embattled incumbent.

And that is a huge, huge strategic problem for them. I suspect because they've been a very competent campaign, leaving him aside that, you know, Chris LaCivita and Susie Wiles and some of the sort of rational professionals around him recognize this. But I wonder how much control they have over Trump right now. Doesn't sound like much. I mean, like, I think that they're if you look at their ads, they're

you know, they're sort of settling on a message that she's the San Francisco liberal trying to tie her to the Biden administration on inflation and the border. But you can't just run a campaign based on television ads. You need a candidate to deliver the message too. I think people miss this, that, you know, especially at this phase in a campaign where these candidates are covered wall to wall, that the candidate has to be in concert with the paid media message and

Because people are going to default to what they see that's unscripted. So when he's out there and he's talking, that is the thing that's going to be the signal to people as to what the campaign is about. And so even if you thought that the spots that they're running, I have a couple of some thoughts on that, that the spots that they're running are exactly the right spots. If he's doing something completely different,

It's going to erode the efficacy of those spots. I think that they're, you know, they love on their side the whole kind of Willie Horton, scary left-wing radical message. And it may be energizing to the base, but she just doesn't look or seem like that person.

And the more people see of her, the less she looks like that and or the less credible that is. I suspect this convention that's coming up and we'll talk about that in a bit is going to be more evidence that she's very much in the mainstream and very focused on the day to day experiences of people.

And so I think they're overshooting the runway, you know, and it may make what they're doing less effective. It seems like it's not just Trump struggling to come up with a message or an explanation for Kamala Harris's appeal. Kellyanne Conway, who was Trump's campaign manager in 16, she was on Fox last night venting about Kamala Harris. Let's listen. Kamala Harris.

Kamala Harris is just one big old blind date and everybody's making her whatever they need her to be. She's so good looking. She's so smart. She's so wealthy. She's so funny. She's close to her mom. She goes on really cool vacation. She'll never break your heart. Everybody's making her what they need her to be. I'm Kamala Harris and I approve. I approve that message. Exactly. Exactly.

It does... It reminded me a little bit of how the McCain campaign sort of approached Obama in the summer and early fall of 2008. Did you think of that too? Yes, although they...

presented an alternative. What made their, yes, they said he's like the Paris Hilton. It's a name from the past. The Paris Hilton of politics, meaning a star, but nobody knows why. That was their, and he's drawing this big crowds, but why? But the bigger, the thing that made that message actually somewhat concerning to me at that time was the flip side, which is John McCain's all about country firsts,

You know, they had a positive message for him that that made him look big and substantive and, you know, larger than life against this cartoon character that they were creating or trying to sell, you know.

Obama, and that got shattered when he named Sarah Palin as the VP candidate, which wasn't exactly... I had great admiration for John McCain, but I think even he would say that probably wasn't the country first move. So, you know, but yes, I think... Listen, she's not wrong, John. I mean, she's...

She there there is such a sense of relief in this country that there's an actual choice other than the one they feared there would be. And she is coming across really well. And people are imputing to her a lot of qualities that they they hope that she has. And it's up to her to deepen that feeling by telling, you know, through the telling of her story and the telling of other people's stories who she's connected with. And but.

So she's not wrong about that, and I'm sure it's frustrating. But, you know, the question is, Barack Obama ultimately didn't disappoint. Barack Obama was largely the person that they hoped he would be. I think the standard for her is a little lower. You know, the race is shorter now.

The opponent is more flawed. You know, I think she just needs to be an acceptable alternative to Donald Trump. You know, I mean, a majority of people in this country do not want to vote for Donald Trump.

They just want an acceptable alternative. Yes. And the story of the Democratic Party since 2016 is that at all levels, when we have nominated and put forward candidates, Senate, House, governor, president, who are...

mainstream Democrats broadly acceptable to most of the electorate, Democrats tend to win, especially running against MAGA candidates or people like Trump. And I think that's one reason why Biden- And nobody's like Trump more than Trump.

And obviously it's why Joe Biden won in 2020. And it seems like in 2024, he was no longer broadly acceptable to the electorate because of age concerns. And she is, you know, I saw this, Nate Cohn said this in the New York Times. She's basically like a generic Democrat now. That's not an insult. That's an asset, you know? Yeah. I will say, and, you know, I've gotten scolded by

your friends on social media about saying this. Not my friends. I get scolded too. We're both in the crosshairs. I mean, this is a very close race. Okay. I'm not sure what would happen if the election were called today. She's clearly got momentum. She's closed the gap. What was a clear Trump advantage?

is now a coin flip race and she's closed the gap in a lot of these battleground states. I don't think to the degree the New York Times poll suggested, but still she's in the hunt and she could win, you know, some or all of those states. So, you know, this is a real race, but, you know,

They say in baseball, look the ball into the glove. In other words, when the ball comes your way, don't assume you're going to catch it. Look the ball into the glove. There's a lot of work to be done between now and November for Kamala Harris to win this race. But she's in a position to win this race, which is an amazing turnaround in just one month's time. Yeah, my view of the race is that she is more...

much closer now to Biden 2020 numbers than obviously Biden 2024 numbers. But Biden won 2020 by 40,000 votes across a couple of states. And I think the difference other than the increased enthusiasm and sort of the base coming home for her with Biden is that she's opened up

sort of more paths to 270 than he had because it seems like the blue wall states are still easiest. But now we got, you know, Georgia's back in play and Arizona, Nevada, maybe even North Carolina. So she has more of a chance, but it still seems like she hasn't even quite hit Biden 2020 numbers with a lot of demographic groups. I mean, there's work to be done. The convention will help do some of that work. The debate obviously is going to be very important.

Uh, but think about this, you know, uh,

because she, because this happened so late, she now, they had their convention already. She has her convention. That convention will take us to the end of the month, basically, because you've got Labor Day in there. And then 10 days after that, you've got the debate. And I like her chances of doing better than the last debate that we saw. But I think, you know, Trump can call, you know, Trump,

for in playing to you know race and bias and all that stuff you know calls her low iq and all that stuff uh i hope he goes into the debate with that attitude because uh what he's going to find is someone who's very very good at forensics and at debate so um you know she could extend her

momentum into late September. And then lots of folks are voting around this country or starting to vote around this country. So she's in a very advantageous position. And I mean, it turned out to be a gift that Biden waited as long as he did to... I know the Trump people think it was a big conspiracy. I

To me, you know... If only. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. They're imputing too much to the Democratic Party. One quick thing before we go to break. We are so grateful that you all listen to this show. We're asking you to take it a step further and take a few seconds to share an episode with five of your friends to remind them what's at stake in November. Like one of those old email chains your kooky aunt used to send promising seven years of bad luck if you didn't share. Yeah.

Except instead of seven years of bad luck, it's four more years of Donald Trump and the rest of our natural lives under his Supreme Court appointees. Head on over to Apple or your preferred podcast platform now to make sure you're following our show and click share. We really appreciate it. Conclave is a gripping thriller from Academy Award winning director Edward Berger starring Ralph Fiennes, Stanley Tucci, John Lithgow and Isabella Rossellini. Only in theaters October 25th. The Pope is dead. The throne is vacant.

Conclave is an unprecedented and illuminating glimpse into the inner workings of the Catholic Church as it follows one of the world's most secretive and ancient events, selecting the new Pope. Conclave is only in theaters October 25th. Visit conclavethefilm.com to get tickets now.

Pod Save America is brought to you by Brooklinen. With all the life that happens in your bedroom with pets, family, hobbies, me time, date night, etc. A lot carried in that etc. Am I right, John? Give me a high five, huh? For etc. How does your bedroom re-energize you, John?

Oh, the sheets. Oh, the sheets. Yes, they are comfortable. I love Brooklyn and sheets. Me too. I, you know that I've recently become a linen sheets person. I never was. I always thought they do. I thought I couldn't either. I thought I wasn't a linen person. And then I tried and I was like, I'm not going back. We're not going back. We're not going back.

They have everything you need to style your dream bed with layers, textures, throws, blankets. Super high quality products have been tested and awarded by experts including Good Housekeeping, GQ Wirecutter, and more with over 100,000 five-star reviews.

Brooklinen's customizable bundles make it easy to refresh your bed and bathroom, putting everything you need in one place. Brooklinen's value is the best, even helping you save when you bundle. So refresh your space today with Brooklinen's award-winning textures, layers, and home essentials. Visit in-store or online at brooklinen.com. That's B-R-O-O-K-L-I-N-E-N.com. Get 15% off your first order and save extra when you bundle. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

Therapy is great. It is, John. It is helpful for learning positive coping skills and how to set boundaries. It empowers you to be the best version of yourself. And it isn't just for those who've experienced major trauma. Everyone can use therapy. Just great to talk to someone. I texted my therapist. I said, I'm coming back after this election. Either way, win or lose. She's like, who is this? New number. Yeah.

If you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Visit betterhelp.com slash PSA today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash PSA.

Well, let's talk about what Kamala Harris is doing to define herself this week. Even though she currently has maybe the slightest lead in the polls, Trump still has a lead in most polls on the question of who voters trust to handle the economy, and voters still rank affordability and cost of living issues as their top issues. So Harris is going to be delivering her first big policy speech on Friday in North Carolina. She's going to reportedly focus on

lowering the cost of groceries, housing and health care, according to Axios, which says this will be part of an effort by Harris to put some distance between herself and her current boss, Joe Biden. Trump's going to give an economic speech of his own later tonight in North Carolina. His campaign also took a whack at Harris in response to today's inflation numbers, which were actually pretty good, dipping below 3 percent for the first time since 2021. But Trump said that, quote, under Kamala Harris,

Everything costs 20% more than it did under Donald Trump. Working families are having to pay 30% more for baby food and the price of gasoline is up 50%. Certainly doesn't sound like Trump's voice. The statement also branded this Kamalanomics. Is that right? Kamalanomics, which it really rolls off the tongue. Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to hear him say that.

But look, those words are the, you know, if you were running their campaign, those would be the right words, right? Try and impute everything that people hate about the economy to her and shift their, you know, their dissatisfaction from Biden to her. You know, I think, you know, when you hear some, there'll be obviously new elements to her economic program. Some of it will be familiar. The difference is,

You know, in a strange way, Biden was so eager to get credit for his economic accomplishments that when he talked about the economy, he talked a lot about himself and what he had done. And what she's done very well in the first weeks of this campaign, and what I suspect she'll do well in this speech, is to talk about people and the lives that people are living and their struggles and aspirations and how...

We can help how she can help, how government can help and make it prospective and make it value oriented and less about her than about them.

You know, and I think that's really important. It seems like she's also going to try to be a little bit more economically populist, specifically towards corporations and price gouging. And she, of course, has a record to back that up when she was attorney general of California. She took on the banks. You know, Biden, Joe, but on that, Favs, you know, Biden did try and do that. He just wasn't very, he didn't seem particularly wedded to the words. You know, he didn't, it didn't,

It seems sort of synthetic, whereas she seems a little bit more connected to the words. And maybe it is her tenure as attorney general where she fought a lot for consumers and against banks and...

you know, for-profit colleges and pharmaceutical companies and so on. I wonder how much of that is, you know, Biden always had sort of the Scranton Joe persona at times. And I always thought that was his most effective economic message. And, you know, I was always wondering how much is the white is just being in the White House, right? And you have all this economic policy and you have all these people trying to like

get their policies in and sort of tout accomplishments because you're, you feel like you're in a foxhole and everything and you're beleaguered all the time by the press. And so you want to like make, you know, make sure you get credit for stuff. Yes. I know the syndrome. I think we, we were subject to it from at times. For sure. For sure. And it feels like she is, um, in a way unburdened by all that, uh, or at least has learned the lessons of that. And it's like, well, look, I got less than a hundred days left. I might as well run a campaign, uh,

I don't think it's contradictory. She can say, we did some great things in the White House, but prices are too high and people are still struggling. And that's going to be my main focus. And Biden tried to do that, but it always was sort of an afterthought.

after a litany of accomplishments and insistence that, which is statistically true that the US has outperformed all the other countries and so on. Even that, you would advise a candidate, give the credit to the American people and their hard work, but be that as it may. Yeah, I think she's gonna push forward

And what she's going to try and do is say, here's what I am going to do. I think she'll do the same, by the way, on immigration. She's doing the same on immigration. She's pushing the conversation into the future, giving people a sense of what she would do. And she's definitely carving out her own identity as a candidate.

How detailed do you think she should get on economic proposals? I saw the New York Times story about this, and it basically said she's going to be light on details. And, you know, of course, the downside of that is then the press will

complains that you're not detailed enough in your agenda and maybe it opens you up to attacks from Republicans, though Donald Trump is not so detailed on his agenda either. But the upside is that, you know, you're talking in values. Yes. And and also like you want to give yourself a little room and not

sort of debate yourself and open up a debate within the party over like details of a healthcare plan. We all want to do that in 2020. I say this behind your back and I will say it on your podcast. You are one of the great presidential speechwriters of all time. And it was such a pleasure to work with you and read your prose and

which were off, which often was poetry to me. But you remember because you wrote a lot of these speeches when Barack Obama was in a deep hole in the fall of 2011 after the debt ceiling debacle of the summer of 2011.

And we were looking forward to a race that we thought would be with Mitt Romney at a time when people were very jaundiced about the economy, angry at Wall Street, angry at the people who had precipitated the financial crisis. And you wrote a series of speeches, including one that he gave at Oswanami, Kansas, where Teddy Roosevelt gave his new nationalism speech.

And yes, there were specifics in those cases.

speeches, but there was a fundamental sense of values, of identification with people, working people, and so on, that were so much more important. Because at the end of the day, even on election day, Mitt Romney won the polling on who is best suited to manage the economy. Barack Obama won the day on who's going to fight for me.

And that was what was conveyed in those speeches. So I wouldn't worry about the spectators on the sideline who were, you know, and it also gives her a chance to unpack some of the things that will be in that speech and offer a little more detail down the line and focus on, you know, a specific economic challenge. So I'm fine with it. Now, Trump is leading her on the question of

Who do you trust to handle the economy manage the economy by by certainly more than Romney did Obama on election day Do you think that she needs to narrow that gap a little or do you think she just needs to sort of reframe? Yeah, I think I think you've got to stick to the fight that you can win and that ultimately I think will be more determinative in terms of the people's votes who you need to get and that is

You know, is she connected to my life? Does she understand my struggle? And will she try and do things to help me?

to help me in my life and people like me and my kids and so on. I think that one of the things that's coursing through this race is whatever Donald Trump says, and yes, people say, I did better when he was there. He still has a patina of economic mastery that flowed from 14 years of a bullshit reality show. But there is this lingering feeling that he augments every day that really what he cares about is himself.

Yeah. Okay. And if you want to get into a fight about the economy, understand that the centerpiece of his economic plan is another huge tax cut for the same people he gave a huge tax cut to the last time. And the question is, that reflects his economic priorities. Elon Musk is his economic priority. Yeah.

You know, so I think there's a great contrast to be set up here. And you shouldn't get focused on the things that you may not win. Just focus on the things you need to win the race. Yeah, no, I agree. Tim Walz made his solo debut with a speech to a convention of public sector union members. Here's a little bit of what he said. You heard the story. You knew Vice President Harrop grew up in a middle class family.

picked up shifts at that McDonald's as a student. I keep asking this to make a contrast here. Can you simply picture Donald Trump working at a McDonald's trying to make a McFlurry or something? It's, oh, he knows, he knows us, he knows us. He couldn't run that damn McFlurry machine if it cost him anything. So he sits there and tells his friends, "You're rich as hell and we're gonna cut your taxes." I believe him when he says that. But he also turns around and tells workers their wages are too high.

I keep bringing this up. Who do you know who's asking to cut taxes on billionaires while stiffing working people? I don't know anybody. How do you think Walsh did there? And what do you think about him as a messenger?

Well, he's obviously a, he is a very, very talented communicator, you know, um, and that's why he is where he is. He basically talked his way into this position by doing every network, but the home and garden network, uh, in the weeks leading up to the vice presidential decision. And what you see is a guy who he speaks in a colloquial way that is very accessible to people. And, um,

So he is a, you know, I mean, there'll be debate about the vice presidential pick if Kamala Harris loses the race and she loses it by the margin of losing the state of Pennsylvania. And there'll be a revisiting of this. But Walsh is a he's he is one of these sort of he sneaks up on you. Right. He's he's like he is a great communicator who is comes in the package of every man.

And so I think he's good. I will say when he was talking, though, that, you know, Trump may not have worked in a McDonald's, but he certainly patronizes McDonald's. And probably more than Kamala Harris does, from what I can see. He's much more on the other side of the counter. Exactly. As usual, he's the consumer.

I thought that the McDonald's hit, the way that Walls did the comparison was funny and great. I also liked the latter half of that clip where he really got into what you were saying is Trump wanting to give a tax cuts to his friends. Because then I think it sort of connects the character of each with the policy, which is probably the connection you want to make there. This is why the debate is so important because...

She can really prosecute this case on that stage. I mean, the fact is that, you know, Trump, you know, policy is pretty meaningless to Trump and he doesn't go very deep on it. But this is the centerpiece of his first term, this tax cut. And he's promised to make it permanent.

$4.5 trillion over the next decade. And I think there are a lot of folks in America who probably have a different set of priorities. And, you know, it's just it's just hanging there for her.

Do you think that his position on tariffs, the sort of the across-the-board tariff on everything imported, that would obviously be quite a price hike for consumers, do you think that's like fertile territory or do you think it's too confusing for people? Yeah, you know, I think this is a really good question. I did a podcast that'll go up Thursday with Ezra Klein, and Ezra went into a long—who's brilliant, obviously—went into a long disquisition about—

tariffs and the impact of tariffs and so on, you know, and what 10% tariffs on China would mean and on all products and this. And like,

I don't think people understand tariffs and I'm not sure that... I'm always loath to be involved in trying to educate the public in the last 90 days of a campaign about something. I think it's fair to say that when you add up all of Donald Trump's economic policies, it's going to raise costs on people by X number of dollars. You don't have to get into the sort of mechanics of how that happens, but you should make that assertion because it's true. And, you know, look...

He wants to take over the Fed and hold interest rates down artificially. That may sound positive to people, but the result of it is going to also be more inflation. I mean, he has an economic program that would explode inflation. And I would assert that. I would not get into the ins and outs because it's easy for him to say, look, I know you want to give a pass to China. I don't.

And since your dollar goes further in Ohio...

It's like a cheat code for success. The tech career you want and a life you'll love. Have it all in the heart of it all. Learn more at callohiohome.com.

They're back. Verizon Small Business Days are here. October 14th to the 20th. Meet with our experts. Get one-on-one advice, a free tech check, and special offers. Like a free 5G phone when you switch. Don't miss out. Call 1-800-483-4428. Or go to verizon.com slash smallbusiness. Offer available for select 5G phones. New device payment purchase agreement and select biz unlimited plan required. Credit applied over agreement term up to 36 months. Terms apply. Limited time offer.

Building a business may feel like a big jump, but OnDeck small business loans can help keep you afloat. With lines of credit up to $100,000 and term loans up to $250,000, OnDeck lets you choose the loan that's right for your business. As a top-rated online small business lender, OnDeck's team of loan advisors can help you find the right business loan to fit your needs. Visit OnDeck.com for more information.

Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. All right. Democratic National Convention is next week. Yeah. In your hometown of Chicago. Can't wait to be there. Can't wait. Yeah. Full lineups have not been released, but it looks like we'll hear from Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton on Monday night, Barack Obama on Tuesday night, Bill Clinton and Tim Walz on Wednesday, and Kamala Harris, of course, on Thursday. We will be doing a reaction show every night. Pod Save America will be there. Actually, we're going to do a reaction show every night.

Max, you've been involved in a lot of these. Big picture, what does the Harris campaign and Democrats more broadly need to accomplish here? Well, I don't know if I said this earlier, but look, if it were a Biden convention, this would be 80% just assault on Trump, carpet bombing on Trump, because the mission there would be to make Trump so unacceptable to

that whatever misgivings they had about Biden, that they would vote for Biden. And there would be some stuff about his accomplishments and so on. This is an entirely different task. The task here is to tell the Kamala Harris story

in a way that builds on what she's been doing and makes people feel more comfortable and give them a deeper sense of what it is that she is fighting for and who she's fighting for. It's a much more, I think, a much more energizing kind of prospect for the folks who are planning the convention. If you come out of the convention with a deeper, richer sense of Kamala Harris as someone who

identifies with people, fights for people, and has an idea about the very tangible things that need to be addressed to improve people's lives or help people improve their own lives. I think that would be a big win. And I think it is very, it's much less complex than it would have been. Clearly, there's going to be contrast drawn with Trump.

And there should be. But I kind of think people have made a judgment about Donald Trump. I don't think you have to do that much work on Trump. You know? Yeah. I feel like the only work you have to do on Trump is they've made up their minds on his character, who he is, what he's done in the past.

I wonder about his second – his potential second term agenda and how much work you need to do sort of just laying out the choice for people on if he gets another term, he'll do X, Y, and Z. But I go back and forth. Well, it's interesting that Bill Clinton is speaking Wednesday night because you remember the role he played at our convention in 2012 where he did a lot of that.

I'm sure he'll do a lot of that again. And I think particularly on economics, the discussion we were just having, doing some good work on that. You know, yes, and on rights and abortion rights in particular and reproductive rights, there's work to be done there. You know, I'm not like a huge believer in just

uttering the words Project 2025 again and again. I don't think the average person knows what it is. I don't think you should waste a whole lot. But I take some of the things from it that are particularly egregious and extreme, and I would certainly raise their salience and create that contrast. But in the main, I think that this is Kamala Harris's great chance to introduce herself

And, you know, when you're the sitting vice president, yes, you're a national figure, but you're really not known. And, you know, a great example is George H.W. Bush in 1988 was, you know, the cover of Newsweek at the beginning of the campaign was, is Bush a wimp? Because he was like the understudy to...

Ronald Reagan. And that convention really, really broadened people's sense of who George H.W. Bush was, the war hero, the guy who's really attached to his family and to American values. And it was a hugely important event for him. So vice presidents are known, but they're not known. This is a chance for her to be better known.

Let's talk about her speech specifically. You and I have worked on a lot of these convention speeches. I remember in 2008, there's just like a lot of business to get done in all of these speeches, right? That one was a particularly hair-raising... Well, it's their State of the Union-esque in that you want to talk about yourself, you want to talk about your opponent, you want to lay out your agenda, but

But you don't want to lay out too much of the agenda. You want to talk a little bit about your opponent's agenda and what the choice is. You want to wrap it up in, unlike a State of the Union, you want to make it a little tighter and wrap it up in sort of inspirational rhetoric, uplifting its crowd. And you don't have to deal with a bunch of bureaucrats trying to get their pet project into the speech. Right.

Right. But I also remember, you know, that those first couple drafts of the 2008 speech were very long because there was so much business to get done. What would you focus on, like, specifically if you were her? Well, first of all, you know, again, I think more than even Obama needed to, because remember, he had a two-year campaign. She is literally one month into this race or she'll be one month into this race and

So she needs to tie her own story to the values that she's fighting for. I think that's one big thing. But I actually think that they're touching on some of this. She also needs to ask people, what kind of country do we want? That's what elections are about. And what kind of country do we want? And contrast her vision with the vision of a Trump redo, a Trump

2.0 and really cast herself as a hopeful, forward-looking alternative. And I think if she does those things, it'll be a successful speech. You know, yeah, you have to resist the temptation to make it a State of the Union speech. This should be as much poetry as prose. It has to have enough content

to support the poetry and give people a sense of where you're going. But I think people want to, what we've seen in the last three weeks is people want to be inspired. They want to feel like there's a better day ahead that, you know, we're not, uh, you know, this is now a battle between hope and cynicism. And, uh, and she just needs to make a great case for hope here. Uh, and I think that she will, I think she will.

I also think, you know, they are going to try to define her as other, right? She's, whether it's radical, whether it's flip-flopper, she's, you know, it's, whether it's Trump talking about her, you know, biracial identity or it's more policy oriented, the message is the same, which is she's not like us. And I think she has an opportunity here to really,

sort of reclaim patriotism and talk about her love of country and how this country sort of made her story possible. And she wants to make that story possible for everyone. And she's doing that, by the way, on the road. Yeah, yeah. She should be doing that. You know, she has a disadvantage because, and it's not that so much because her parents...

are Jamaican immigrant and Indian immigrant so much as she is a cosmopolitan person. I mean, she's a coastal cosmopolitan person. Biden had an advantage. Scranton was a huge advantage. And in his convention, that was the touchstone. That was the thing that certified him. And so she has to approach it a little differently now.

And I mean, part of the challenge of the Democratic Party is that it's become too much of a coastal cosmopolitan party. So really reconnecting with or connecting with fundamental kind of

You know, the dignity of just hardworking folks across this country who care deeply about their family and their communities. And just, you know, they want their leaders to be on their side and to help them do the things that they want to do in their lives. And I think...

Again, just looking at the speeches she's making, I think she's really touching on those themes and just expanding on those, I think will be really important. So you're right. If she...

You want people to feel when she comes out of this. I get her and she gets me. Yes. Yeah, for sure. Finally, for anyone who's listening, who's headed to Chicago and might have some free time, any recommendations on restaurants? In addition to Manny's, of course. Well, you just took away my number one choice. I'm not going to... I'm going to duck the question as only an experienced political consultant can because...

I have some favorite restaurants, but I don't want to insult. This is a great restaurant town. I guess my bottom line is this is one of the great restaurant towns in the world. It really is. And you can't go wrong. And there'll be a million sort of guides to restaurants. But there's a lot of great ethnic, you know, there's still ethnic neighborhoods, ethnic foods.

This is a really diverse city, you know, and if you get a chance to move around a little, I'd experiment with those. But if Haute Cuisine is your thing, there's plenty of it here. And I'm not going to bias you. You will find them. But I think you should send into Pod Save America your favorites when this is over. And there should be a Pod Save America guide to Chicago. You can't go wrong and you also can't go light. Right.

Yeah, that's true. You're not going to Chicago to sort of cut calories. Well, in fairness, they call it the Windy City. It's actually not about the wind, but it does get windy here. And so we'd like to bulk up here in case a big gust of wind comes along. You don't want to get blown away.

So we eat well here, and you will eat well here when you come. I can't wait to see everybody. I love this town, and it's never more beautiful than in August. So visit the lakefront. Go walk through the parks on the lakefront. Just enjoy the city, and in no way to denigrate Milwaukee.

which is, I think in its own way, a really charming town. But Chicago is the best city there is. And I think you'll find it. I'm excited to go check out some of our old haunts from when we lived there during the Obama campaign. And Chicago in the summer, I always say there's no better city. There's no better city. Yes, yes. Axe, thanks for doing this today. Thanks for being here. Oh, man, it's always a pleasure to chat with you.

This is great. And Dan and I will be back with a new show on Friday morning. We will talk to you then. David Axelrod, thanks again. Good to be with you, brother.

If you want to get ad-free episodes, exclusive content, and more, consider joining our Friends of the Pod subscription community at cricket.com slash friends. And if you're already doom-scrolling, don't forget to follow us at Pod Save America on Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content, and more. Plus, if you're as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review to help boost this episode or spice up the group chat by sharing it with friends, family, or randos you want in on this conversation.

Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producer is David Toledo. Our associate producers are Saul Rubin and Farrah Safari. Reid Cherlin is our executive editor and Adrian Hill is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis.

Writing support by Hallie Kiefer. Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Andy Taft is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Phoebe Bradford, Joseph Dutra, Ben Hefcote, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kiril Pallaviv, and David Toles.

And since your dollar goes further in Ohio, it's like a cheat code for success. The tech career you want and a life you'll love.

Have it all in the heart of it all. Learn more at callohiohome.com. Building a business may feel like a big jump, but OnDeck small business loans can help keep you afloat. With lines of credit up to $100,000 and term loans up to $250,000, OnDeck lets you choose the loan that's right for your business. As a top-rated online small business lender, OnDeck's team of loan advisors can help you find the right business loan to fit your needs. Visit OnDeck.com for more information.

Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.