The Late Show with Joe Biden
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Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Lovett. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. I'm Tommy Vitor. We are here live in Chicago for the Democratic National Convention. Are we live? I guess we're live. We're live. We're barely live. We're always live having a conversation.

On tonight's show, Joe Biden addresses the Democratic Convention and Donald Trump apparently thinks he's still running against him. Plus, Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker stops by to talk about hosting the convention and why he's had so much success fighting back against Republican attacks. And the bears. And the bears. And the White Sox sucking. And the White Sox sucking. And the cops.

It was a wide-ranging interview. He's a good time. He was fun to talk to. You guys had a good time? He gave us beers. He did? Yeah, we drank with him. We had a couple beers. Oh, that's fun. Well, Lovett and I went to go drink with some Vote Save America volunteers. Yeah. Also good. Everyone wins. That was really special. You guys want to talk a little bit about the convention first? What it's been like being here?

for the last... It feels like we've been here for, what, 96 hours straight without sleeping? Yeah, that's just tonight's program. Should we paint a picture? We're in a box made of blue pipe and drape directly adjacent to the Newsmax TV studio. They're right there. For those of you watching, right there. There's our Newsmax friends. We're surrounded by plants, some real, some fake. Some fake.

That's true. You have to guess which. We've run into a lot of people, a lot of friends of the pod. We love that. These guys had a good time. John and Lovett had a good time with Dean Phillips. We did. We had a great reunion with Dean Phillips. We did. And Lovett, what did you say? Oh, what I said? I said, Dean Phillips, you son of a bitch. How dare you be right before? What did I say? You were right too early. Shame on you. Fuck you for being right too early.

And then some random person came up and screamed, it's the Retribution Gang. I don't even know what that means. I don't either. But you know what? It's a good time. It's joyous here. It is. People are fired up. People are fired up. There's energy. There's excitement. Everyone's got a smile on their faces. We love that. All right. Let's start with the first night is in the books.

of the most surprising and consequential Democratic National Convention of our lifetimes. There were many, many speakers. Some might say too many speakers. But the headliners, of course, were Joe and Jill Biden and Hillary Clinton. Kamala Harris made a surprise appearance on stage. There were some really powerful testimonials from women whose pregnancies became nightmares under Dobbs. And also AOC and Steve Kerr gave...

fantastic speeches. But let's start with the man himself, Joe Biden. Quite a balancing act for him, celebrating and also saying goodbye. Unfortunately, some of you might have missed it because the pre-program went so long that he got knocked out of primetime. It was ridiculous. I was mad on behalf of Joe Biden. It was... They bumped James Taylor to make room for Joe Biden, which means...

They gave James Taylor's spot to Jamie Raskin. Tough town. Or Chris Coons or somebody. Chris Coons. Yeah, Chris Coons. Anyway, if you did miss Joe Biden's speech, here are the highlights. I stand before you now on this August night to report that democracy has prevailed. Democracy. Democracy has delivered. And now democracy must be preserved.

I've got five months left in my presidency. I've got a lot to do. I intend to get it done. It's been the honor of my lifetime to serve as your president. I love the job, but I love my country more. Selecting Kamala was the very first decision I made before I became, when I became our nominee. And it was the best decision I made my whole career. We've not only gotten to know each other, we've become close friends. She's tough.

She's experienced and she has enormous integrity, enormous integrity. Her story represents the best American story. And like many of our best presidents, she was also vice president. That's a joke. I promise I'll be the best volunteer Harrison Waltz has ever seen.

All right, let's talk about Joe Biden's speech. What you guys thought was the only speech where he went down to the floor. We were standing on the floor for the speech. He was a little emotional when he first came out. He followed his daughter, Ashley Biden, who gave a very moving speech. And he didn't start for a while just because the crowd was... There was so many, we love you, Joe. Thank you, Joe. So it took a while for him to get going. And the crowd was really... The crowd was very generous, which was nice. But what did you guys think of the speech? I think the most beautiful...

came later when he said, you know, I love this job, but I love my country more. And it was genuinely moving. These are all Biden delegates. These are all people that if Joe Biden hadn't stepped aside would have disregarded anyone who said otherwise and thrown their support behind him. And it was just the capstone of his presidency and a reminder that he did something very selfless. But it was great that we all had a moment to do that. And then this was his night, I think, to

really sort of declare victory of his presidency. And I think, you know, I think we all want this campaign to be about the future. But I think for Joe Biden, this was his moment to say, I'm really proud of what we got done. I was proud to seek reelection based on my record. I would like to extol the virtues of my politics. And I think it's also incumbent on everybody to say, all right, that is the vision of democratic politics that Joe Biden has been shaping. And now we're going to carry it forward. Dan? Yeah, look,

Joe Biden did an incredibly important thing for this country when he came out of retirement to beat Donald Trump. He accomplished a ton of things and was a great president. And this was his moment. There's a moment for that to be celebrated by the people who voted for him or chose him to be to run again. Right. This was these were his people. And these are just to be specific. He handpicked these delegates. They were picked by his people. And it was a moment, a time for the moment for the country to celebrate Joe Biden.

what he was trying to do, and like you said, the tricky thing to navigate was lay out all that had been accomplished as a way to say that you can trust Kamala Harris to build on that success. Right? And that's a... You're trying to both let Joe Biden have his moment and also use that moment as a way to propel her campaign forward. Yeah, on a personal level, I do think Joe Biden deserved a moment to be celebrated, to get round after round of applause from that audience tonight. I think as a...

political matter, as a political messaging opportunity, it was a lot of, it was a miss in so far as it was a lot of relitigating accomplishments. It felt a lot like the stump speech. There was less of a contrast with Donald Trump or an argument made for Kamala Harris as early and as strong as I would have personally liked to have seen. But look, I mean, Joe Biden did something that

very few political leaders in world history have ever done, which is willingly step aside and pass the torch. I think he deserved his moment in the sun, though I don't know that that was the speech. Look, I think it was the speech he might have given, were he the nominee, less than an argument for Kamala Harris. Yeah, I was remembering when he was speaking in Playbook today, there was a quote from Anita Dunn, who's a

we all worked with and is a very close advisor of Joe Biden who just left the White House and now she's at Future Forward which is the pro-Kamala Harris super PAC. She's talked about the speech. She said this is not a time for legacy. This is a time for arguing why Kamala Harris is the best candidate. Seems like Anita did not really know the speech. But it was legacy. And I do think that

In Biden's defense, it was every president gives a farewell address. And I think that his farewell address, whether it's Kamala Harris who wins or Donald Trump, God forbid, it's not going to get as much coverage because there's two other candidates. This is probably the biggest audience he'll get until the end of his presidency. And so I think he wanted to make sure that he had this opportunity to tell people,

the country, what he accomplished, you know? Yeah. I'm trying to be generous and like show grace to this person that did something extraordinary that a lot of people asked him to do. And many people said he wouldn't do. If your goal is to give a speech that does the most that you can to help Kamala Harris win, that was not the speech. Right. And I hope when he's on the stump, that's the speech we get. I hope when he's out there over the next couple of months, that's the speech we get. He said he wants to be their best volunteer. I love that line. I really love that. But that means making it about the most effective way

version of the argument. And this was much more about legacy than it was about, I think, winning. I think it, I agree with that, but I also think it is totally okay for him to have his moment. This is not a situation where it's, he's leaving at the end of two terms, right? Like Obama with Hillary Clinton's extremely unusual. It's extremely unusual. This was going to up until one month ago, this was his convention. He'd be speaking on Thursday night. He spoke on Monday night.

He got a chance to deliver, as you said, I don't know what the audience was. It's obviously not as large it would have been if they'd actually gotten it in before the network coverage remember, but the audience of this, I'm sure, is larger than whatever farewell address he would give in January of 2025. Yeah. And so let him have it. He deserves it. It's fine. And I don't even know...

how, like what is the speech he would give that would be of massive strategic importance to Kamala Harris? So I think that at some point on the stump, and I agree that like it was good that he deserved to give the speech he did tonight, for sure. I think at some point on the stump over the next couple of months,

he can talk about what it was like to work with Kamala Harris over the last four years and why she should be president, why he thinks she should be president, what she helped him accomplish, just personal stories about her, what it was like working with her, what it's like being her governing partner for the last four years. I think that would be useful. Yeah. I mean, there obviously could have been more of that in this speech, for sure. There were times where he weaved in

Kamala and I did this. Kamala and Tim Walz will do this. But there is a segment of voters where he has value for her. I do just imagine, I mean, listen, we're nitpicking and I'm not trying to upset anybody, but he did this extraordinary thing where he stepped aside, he passed the torch, right? No one thought it was possible. No leader ever does this. If that had been maybe upfront, the central focus of the speech, the moment, why he did it, why he believes in her, it could have, I think, really been

something unique in political history rather than, hey, look at all this stuff we did. And look, maybe that, maybe Joe Biden is right that like talking about prescription drug prices and what voters want to hear and dumb pundits like us want to hear the political new thing. I also like, we, a lot of it was like a, like a collage of things he said before. I almost said pastiche.

And I stopped myself. Uh, but, uh, but I didn't, uh, but I do think like the speech, they don't let me, uh, I keep asking, but, uh, there, there, there are like some of the best moments I do think like we're about policy and it might be the kind of thing that gets shared. Like where, when he, uh, when he said, uh,

It was always infrastructure. He didn't build a damn thing. That's a good line. The damn thing was a good line. I liked that. I liked infrastructure decade. I liked infrastructure decade. You didn't like it as much. I liked it. I'm just saying I liked it. We can disagree. That's fine. That's fine. The new line was Trump didn't build a damn thing. I love that. I liked infrastructure decade. As I was listening to this speech, I was thinking in my head, I have heard all of this before, both the campaign event or policy event he did with

the last week, the farewell address. But then I thought, in my head, how this plays out is if I was working, like I did this with Obama all the time, is some reporter would tweet, nothing new here. And I'd be like, hey, dumb asshole. It's not for you. Not for you. The people we care about are the ones who don't pay attention every day. And that is true. Well, let's talk about the people who might not have seen it because the program went

far too long tonight. Love it. We're in day two. As a fellow speechwriter, should we go on a harangue about this? I'm like genuinely outraged about what's happening. People are speaking too fucking slow and I don't know what to do to address it. I've talked about this on multiple... I can't stop talking about it. Once you see it, you can't stop. But people are not speaking over the applause. They're speaking at under 100 words per minute.

When you're watching at home, you can't hear the crowd. And so people are just standing up there interminably. People's attention spans are lower than they used to be. I don't know why speakers are slower now than they were four years ago or eight years ago. It makes no fucking sense. Everybody pick up the goddamn pace. Everybody's on TikTok and watching cooking videos next to explainers about Reddit AMAs. So everybody's got to pick up the goddamn pace. We were all actually remarking on this at the Republican convention, which was...

At home, watching on TV, it sounded quiet in the hall. Now, we were just down on the hall. It was actually quite loud down there. People say that you could barely hear Hillary Clinton during her speech because the applause was so loud, but it just doesn't come through on TV. They have to talk over the applause. But that is like the number having sat in sessions where there is speech coaching for...

speakers at conventions and elsewhere. It's like the number one thing they teach you. It's what they... I remember they taught Obama this in 2004 before we were ever working for him because he did not know how to ride the applause. Riding the applause is people start applauding but you just keep going because, again, your audience is the people at home, not the people in the room. And so I think that was an issue. There was also... I think the speeches were just too long. And now just for...

I know there is an army of outstanding speechwriters back there trying mightily to cut those speeches down. And the other challenge is you try to cut the speeches down and the speaker who is an elected official is like, no, no, no. I'm going to do what I want to do because I'm an elected official. I know what the people want. I have to say, if one more person goes out there and asks, are you ready to elect Kamala Harris and to get a round of applause? Fucking cut it.

Fucking cut it. There's too much rhetoric. There's too much bullshit in these speeches. Nobody can pay attention to this shit. Nobody cares. So we're recording this Monday night. I guarantee that the Tuesday night speeches are going to be a lot tighter. And then Wednesday, and then definitely Thursday, because you cannot...

They will kick people out of here. You cannot push Kamala Harris. If you think bumping James Taylor is bad. It'll be like Animal House when a guy smashes the guitar against the wall. But it's not just cut. Yes, they should cut down the speeches, but also people should go faster. AOC gave an awesome speech. They were awesome speeches. Steve Kerr? I know how to pronounce it. It's the third time we've corrected you. It's spelled with an E. It's phonetic to me. But they gave really great speeches. They really moved. AOC was awesome. She was...

Speaking over, incredible applause. She was passionate. Content aside, I thought it was a great speech. But just as an effective speaker and communicator, I thought she was maybe the best. She rode the applause. She was passionate. She was direct. She engaged with a crowd, but she was always moving. And more people need to emulate that because, by the way, you'll be able to make a longer and stronger argument if you just keep moving through these speeches. The idea of a speech with a beginning, middle, and end that proceeds sequentially...

Instead of just in a random array of various lines. I know. So, obviously, ton of love for Joe Biden in the hall. Of course, there's a whole subtext here that he appeared in front of a party that, as he thinks and has said, has forced him out of the race. An idea that Nancy Pelosi didn't exactly dispel when she spoke to Jake Tapper today. Let's listen. It does seem like there's some...

residual bad blood or resentment and I'm wondering if you've spoken to him and what your response is to that. Sometimes you just have to take a punch for the children. I just can't.

I love it. I cannot believe you can deliver that line with this script. But sometimes you have to take a punch for the children. She's said it on multiple occasions now. I know. It's like a line she's using. Is the implication that someone's going to punch the kid? No, no, no. You take a punch so you can help the children. Yeah, she's fighting for the... We're all fighting for the children. And so if you want to punch her for that, that's okay. But the visuals, you know... No, I know. That's why I'm laughing. That's why I'm laughing.

But no, I look. So how much of a killer is Nancy Pelosi? Nancy Pelosi said it before. I'll say it again. She's what would happen if a Prada bag with a gun in it became a person. And I fucking love it. I've always, you know, I used to end every episode of Love and Relieve It by thanking Nancy Pelosi. And people said I was a neolib fucking shill. And now everybody's back on board. And I just want to say, welcome.

The Dean Phillips of Nancy Pelosi? Yeah, I am. The Dean Phillips of Nancy Pelosi. That's a sentence that makes sense to anybody whose brain isn't fucking broken. The other main speaker tonight was your old boss, Hillary Clinton. You bet. Who brought back a lot of Lovett's favorite lines. She also situated Kamala Harris' run alongside her own. Let's listen. He's mocking her name and her laugh. Sounds familiar.

But we have him on the run now. Love it. I'm throwing to you. So that was my favorite moment of the speech. Listen, I've had a drink. I was feeling very wistful watching Hillary Clinton speak because she made the speech about suffs. She made the speech about...

Breaking the glass ceiling. And again, like you're thinking like, what is the most effective argument that Hillary Clinton could make? Would it be as focused on history as much as the future? I don't know. I actually genuinely don't know. I thought it was clearly very authentic to her that this is what she wanted to say. But I also just found myself feeling like, like,

There was moments in the speech where she was saying some version of like, I can see it happening now. Like something is changing in America. We're really going to do it. And her voice, there was one point where it didn't crack exactly, but there was real emotion carrying through that. Like she genuinely believes like this is a speech she is giving at the convention before we finally elect the first woman president of the United States.

And, uh, don't jinx it. But so, so I had two feelings, but that was my feeling. Like, like, like, you know, we've got Trump on the run. Like, it makes me really nervous. Like you turn right after that, like, but no matter what the polls say, we got to work hard. So like, which I really appreciate it. But I was like, turn around, throw salt over your shoulder. What are we doing here? Um,

But, like, it was personal for her. And, like, I think similar to Joe Biden, like, this is the speech she wanted to give as a person who beat Donald Trump in the popular vote, but for James Comey would have been president. Yeah, I just believe that. So, yeah, again, another speech where...

I feel like it was more about the personal argument that the person wanted to make. But who the fuck am I to say don't make that argument? I mean, we also think about this always through the persuadable voter who might be watching. But there's also just an element of Democrats love Hillary Clinton. They love Joe Biden. Let him give their speeches. And there is this element when you talk to people over the last month since Kamala Harris has taken off. People are so excited. Then all of a sudden they're just like...

But what about Hillary? Right? Because that is the... Yeah, the subtext. The subtext of everything. And so she addressed that tonight in her at least...

saying that this time is different for these reasons or it can be different if we do the following things and believe it can be different believe it can be different that she believes is different is meaningful that's not how you're getting someone who's choosing between trump and there's not a voter who's choosing between trump and harris right now who is just like one hillary clinton speech away from moving into the harris column but i think it's you're also you're citing anxious volunteers right yeah yeah you're just you're talking you're preaching to the choir and not so much at the convention about preaching to the choir and that's okay too yeah

All right, let's talk quickly about the two other speeches that really grabbed people's attention. We mentioned AOCs already and also Steve Kerr, coach of the Golden State Warriors and the men's national team. And a longtime Bulls player speaking in the United Center in Chicago. Also true. This was the ultimate home game for Steve Kerr. Right, and here's a sampling. Ever since I got elected, Republicans have attacked me, saying that I should go back to bartending.

But let me tell you, I'm happy to any day of the week because there is nothing wrong with working for a living.

I, for one, am tired of hearing about how a two-bit union buster thinks of himself as more of a patriot than the woman who fights every single day to lift working people out from under the boots of greed trampling on our way of life. Coach to coach, that guy's awesome. Although...

I have to say, Coach Walls, way too much reliance on the blitz in '99 against Mankato East. You had a strong defensive line. I would have played more press coverage with your corners and then dropped the safeties into a Tampa 2. Sorry. I wanted you to know how I feel every day of the NBA season. After the results are tallied that night, we can, in the words of the great Steph Curry, we can tell Donald Trump

Night-night. Do you know how good a sports joke has to be for it to fucking kill with me? I just... Our audience might not be sports junkies. Steve Kerr

Making a joke about how specific the criticism is of professional coaches after literally every game is very, very funny and will play extremely well with a big swath of voters. And the Steph Curry night-night thing. Which just happens. More people may know it because it happened at the end of the Olympics. Right. Explain it. Is that when Steph Curry makes a three-pointer that basically is the final dagger that puts the game away, he does night-night like that. And he did it after making the most insane... That's not good sportsmanship. That's not good sportsmanship.

I don't like that. You did it to the country of France. He did it to France. Okay, then it's cool. Yeah, I love that. I was going to say, I thought it was, there's a lot of Donald Trump hits tonight, obviously. And I think in some speeches, they can get a little like, we get it. We're going back to something Trump said three years ago and we're rehashing the same thing. And I think that mocking Trump or a light touch on Trump, I think the night-night thing was the

the right tone to go after Trump. I also think in a different way, AOC is the two-bit union buster who acts like, and it's interesting that she's, you know, the whole speech was about like economic populism, right? But she didn't say he thinks he's a populist or he doesn't think he's a working populist because he thinks he's a patriot.

more patriotic than the woman who fights people every day. And the fact that she worked in and she sort of combined patriotism as, like, lifting people up who were working people in this country, I thought was really smart. There is...

First of all, I just AOC is one of the greatest politicians any of us will ever see. The evolution of how she has like her rhetoric during this speech, the fact that she was somebody that like really defended Biden, which I think gives her a lot of credibility, not just from the left, but like in the broader party, like the way her like that speech, you know,

There are people on the right that just identify her with the sort of, you know, DSA, the kind of the leftism that they view as incredibly unpopular. But like, man, has she found a way to speak? I was like, I don't want to get her in trouble by the neolib PSA guy saying that she didn't sound like a DSA member, but she did not. She is a political celebrity, right? So she gets treated that way by the left for better and for worse by Republicans.

But you almost forget about her bio, which was she was just a normal person like six years ago. And whenever I hear her talk about who she was so recently, I remember it takes me back to 2007 and driving around Iowa with Michelle Obama and her being like, you know what? Me and Barack, like we paid off our student loans a couple of years ago and we still live in a condominium like forever.

We're able to be normal in rooms like this because it wasn't that long ago that we were literally just like you. You know what I mean? We were normal not that long ago. And Tommy will know this, but we used to call Michelle Obama the closer because they would put her in a room with undecided Iowa caucus goers and she would close the deal. And one of the things she would say is a lot of people were like,

we love Obama, I think he's amazing, but he's not ready yet, or I want to vote for this person now. And she would say four years from now is not going to be the same because we're going to be four years further removed.

from being normal, from paying our student loans, from paying our mortgage and all of that. And AOC has it in the way she gave that speech into redefine patriotism as economic populism. It's, I mean, it is a, we could look back at that moment just as a, just a very memorable moment in democratic messaging as a, just a, something new that has not happened before. I think it also, like,

lays the groundwork. Like Kamala Harris could do the same thing. In fact, she has been doing something very similar, which is her message. If you listen to Kamala Harris, the stump speech, and I'm sure we'll hear this Thursday night as well, does combine a lot of economic populism with patriotism. And she sort of wraps it together. And I think that that is like maybe the most potent message that a Democrat can deliver. And,

Also, I'm glad that she highlighted that the stupidest critique Republicans could make of AOC is that she used to be a bartender. I know. That does not land with any voters. I saw people even falling for the trap. I saw some right-wingers being like, then I'll have a whiskey soda and make it snappy. People being super fucking sexist and gross about it. There's something about the transition from Biden to Kamala and this moment of enthusiasm...

Reclaiming the word freedom and reclaiming patriotism, I think, were something a lot of people talked about. Like, can we do it? Should we do it? How do we do it? And then this sort of hinge point, let's say, like, we're just fucking doing it. Yeah. We're taking these symbols back. We're taking this word back. And I love it. From God's lips, Dan's message box. Yeah, exactly. Listen, message box was crucial in this. And we've always said that. Many people are saying that. Message box was the Dean Phillips of the...

And the freedom message, frankly. I was doing that since 2021. Look, we've always said that Dan Pfeiffer is the Dean Phillips of Substack. We've been awake too long. The other thing I'd just say is,

Tim Walls, Steve Kerr. There is something about coaches and public speaking. And you can just see... We saw this with veterans in 2006. Yeah. The DA Triple C is going to be out recruiting football coaches going forward. Coaches and bartenders. Steve Kerr should run for office. I mean, he's incredibly talented. He's a great speaker. He's a great leader. He's a great motivator. Like,

As longtime friends of the pod know, back in 2017, he was on Pod Save America. That's right. Yeah, you went up there. Elijah and I went to Warriors practice, and we interviewed Steve Kerr, and we asked him if he would run for office. And he said, definitely not. Okay. Well, that's what you say. But you know where Steve Kerr is from? Arizona. Oh, come on, Steve. Steve. Pod Save America is brought to you by the ACLU. Project 2025 is a roadmap for a tyrant.

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and fight for all our civil liberties. Get the ACLU's roadmap at aclu.org slash stop 2025. Pod Save America is brought to you by Brooklinen. With all the life that happens in your bedroom with pets, family, hobbies, me time, date night, etc. A lot carried in that etc. Am I right, John? Give me a high five, huh? For etc. How does your bedroom re-energize you, John?

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Conclave is an unprecedented and illuminating glimpse into the inner workings of the Catholic Church as it follows one of the world's most secretive and ancient events, selecting the new pope. Conclave is only in theaters October 25th. Visit conclavethefilm.com to get tickets now. All right. So while Democrats were legitimately thrilled about their party and bursting with more energy than we've seen in years, Donald Trump was in York, Pennsylvania.

with a pretty dry message at a manufacturing plant. You know, they had a few surprises. A few off-script a couple times. According to the reporting, his advisors really, really wanted him to stick to the script. And he did... He got a lot of plaudits for doing some of the economic talking points off the prompter. Yeah, he makes it through a speech without saying the C word. He gets a fucking pat on the back. It's unbelievable. But then he also did a lot of this. You know, he said...

We're weird. The J.D. and I are weird. I think we're extremely normal people. Like you, exactly like... He's weird. While Biden and Harris have been impoverishing our country, they have been getting rich, very rich at your expense. According to a 292-page report...

from the House Oversight Judiciary and Ways and Means Committees in Congress. So sad because he's going to be making a speech tonight and they don't call him Crooked Joe for no reason. They said President Biden engaged in impeachable conduct. I would have made billions of dollars in this job if I wanted to play that game the way they played it. But instead, I took the job

very seriously and very importantly. I can't believe that that was covered as partially normal. Such a whiner. He's reading off the prompter, though. Like, that's in the prompter. That's what I'm saying. And he's talking about a House Republican bullshit report and just making up what's in it that Joe Biden made money

He did not. That Kamala Harris made money of the job. He did not. That Donald Trump was just, you know, on the up and up when he was president. I mean, it was crazy. There's been some discourse about whether Democrats need to move on from the weird framing about Republicans, in particular J.D. Vance and Donald Trump. And I agree on some level that like voters are going to want more. It was a great way to define J.D. Vance in the near term. But voters are going to want to hear more about like what we're going to do next.

Authoritarians?

hate being mocked and weird is also a type of mockery and like Donald Trump doesn't like getting made fun of he doesn't like being mocked and the fact that the Harris-Walls campaign the way they are treating him even though

I think the most effective part of what Wallace has said, like put the word weird aside, is that he's a weirdo.

the, the part where he, he comes back to this over and over again, which is some version of, could you imagine Donald Trump or JD Vance doing normal things, making a McFlurry, whatever it might be. Laughing, smiling, laughing, smiling. The, it, it,

it's such a smart, like Tim Walls just screams fucking normal. Just like, I'm a normal dad. You know, there was a moment tonight where his two kids were doing the, uh, the rabbit ears behind him. And, and you just know, like you, you can't, you can't teach it. You can't pretend you can't make, you can't fake it. Like he is that guy. Like that is, he's Harris also schools normal. And, and like, that's why throughout this, like, you know, she grew up middle class. She worked at McDonald's. Like,

These are just two normal people. I think in part, you know, she escaped some of the misogyny that hit Hillary Clinton in part because this was kind of thrust upon her. Right. So she retained some of her kind of normalcy.

And Donald Trump, like the otherness of him, the strangeness of him, like kind of really is like a direct hit on the populism he's trying to claim. It's it like really is like an effective way to like blunt the power that I think he had. And he just doesn't know what to do with it. Can I say I disagree here? Yeah, I am very resistant to strategies that are about triggering Trump to do something because you've got to get a persuadable voters attention twice.

You basically have to get them to pay attention to what you're saying, and you've got to get them to understand what Trump is responding to. And that's just too much context. I fundamentally agree that the beauty of the strategy to the extent, sort of underlying weirdness, is mockery. And that is the thing that I think Harris has done, and Walz obviously has done incredibly well, is when Trump attacks them, they smile and laugh. They don't just get all serious and stentorian and just...

Because we have... I've been really thinking over the last couple weeks, particularly as we've been here today, what is different? The difference is that Kamala Harris has made politics about something other than Donald Trump. Yeah. Like she...

like Perry said, right? Just like when brush them off, he questioned her racial identity and said she lied about being black. And her response was to smile, kind of laugh, dismiss it right away. And like, and that is the way you do this. It's the way Obama would do it. And instead of just like go into this, you could just see a different, an alternative world where it's,

You go into you give a full speech about what he did. Right. And everyone responds to what he did. And which, by the way, is what Hillary Clinton did a lot in 2016. Yeah. And Biden did in 2020. Like Biden did. The strategy has worked in the past. Right. We won in 2020. We won in 2022. We won in 2018. There there is an element to it. But just I think that feeling has grown so tired where Democratic messaging is the mere image of Trump.

And it'd be something totally different now. It's also an understandably tempting strategy. Yeah, it is a great way to get engagement. Those of us who are Democrats and liberals and pay close attention to politics, we genuinely believe that Donald Trump poses a threat and is dangerous, right? And so when he says something very offensive or something that seems quite threatening, we want to respond by, you know, going to the barricades and doing that kind of stuff. But...

For most people in the country who do not like Donald Trump, which most people don't, but, you know, are sort of maybe open to voting for him or open to just not voting at all. Holding him up as a subject of mockery as a clown is an is an easier way in to persuade them that, yeah, he's not the guy for you. The way you beat a wannabe strongman is to expose them as weak, not to herald and and worry about their strength. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think it's interesting that he has not been able to settle on a message about Kamala Harris that is both effective and one that he feels comfortable owning and delivering. He can't even pick a nickname. He can't even pick a nickname. You know, he was doing the, like...

okay, well, she was vice president for the last four years, so she's talking about lowering inflation and cutting costs, but why hasn't she done that for the last four years? It was like the first time when he said something like, okay, I could see that being a message that, of all the messages about her, could resonate, right? Because Joe Biden is an unpopular president, not just because of his age, but people are still upset about high prices and everything. But for some reason, he can't stay on that message. It's...

You know, Trump's strength is not that he's some great, you know, like nickname or some like sort of idiot savant about that. It's that he throws his opponents off their game. And all of this is a reminder that Kamala Harris is not being thrown off her game by Donald Trump. And that really shakes him. And then it also gets it like this sort of.

Look, we know what the Republican vices are. They are stoking fear and hatred and bigotry, appealing to cruelty and all the rest. Like Democrats, we have our vices too. And it's a piousness issue.

negativity, a kind of like self-righteousness. And Trump invites that because it's fucking deserved. It's fucking deserved. But like the way Tim Walz says, the way Kamala Harris says, they're just rejecting that as a kind of politics. The joy is both an antidote to Trump, but also an antidote to democratic vices. Yeah.

All right. Just after the break, JB Pritzker sits down with Tommy and Dan for a very fun interview. Very fun. Where I guess you guys had beer. Yeah. That's awesome. Sorry you guys skipped it. But before we do that, a lot of talk here at the convention about what's going to happen in the swing states this fall.

You know what's going to be happening in the Swing States this fall? What's going to be happening, John? Tell us, John. Two things. Two things? First, Pod Save America is going back on tour. Where are we going? Join us in Phoenix on September 7th, Ann Arbor on October 5th, and Philadelphia on October 6th. Sandwich Town. You can get your tickets at crooked.com slash events. The other thing that's going to be happening in the Swing States, all of us are going to be out there volunteering, calling, door knocking, doing everything we can to persuade all those voters who are still on the fence. And if you want to be as informed as possible about where those voters are,

May I suggest this season of The Wilderness? I didn't even know that. It's full of incredible insights. Not from me. From all the very smart people I've talked to. Hey, hey, hey. Come on, John. Hey. Final episode, talk to David Plouffe, senior advisor, Harris-Walls campaign. Also, Lynn Vavrick, my favorite political scientist. Lynn Vavrick, excellent. The episode before that, talk to Anat Shankarosorio and Michael Podhorzer about messaging. Great final two episodes. And now I'm done with The Wilderness.

Hey, you know what? If this election goes right, are we just done? Is there no more? We're not out of the woods. Look, this is what this election side season finale or series finale. That's right. That's what that's what the choice is in this election. All right. When we come back, Governor J.B. Pritzker.

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The Floor Store, your area flooring authority. We are here in Chicago on the first day of the Democratic Convention, and joining us now is Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker. Governor Pritzker, welcome to Pond Save America. Thank you. Great to see you guys. Okay. I know you have been planning this convention for a long time now. You've spearheaded getting it here in Chicago. You've planned it. And then one month ago, something no one could have foreseen, we had a switch of candidate. How has that affected the planning? What did you guys have to do to account for that?

Well, let me start by complimenting all the people who put this together because Mignon Moore, for example, Alex Hornbrook from the DNC, and then, of course, our host committee. So they deserve a lot of credit. And they were going to put a great convention on either way. But I think what you're asking about is, you know, the maybe two months ago,

It was questionable. People would call me up and say, I don't know if I want to come. I'm not sure. Should we throw a party? I don't really think so. I mean, there were a lot of people like that, I hate to say. And I have to say, in the last 20 days, there's been a lot of change.

People literally calling me up like, how do I get a credential? You know, my seven relatives want to come with me. Everybody's throwing a party now. So, I mean, just to give you an idea, I mean, the electricity, the enthusiasm is high and you can feel it in this building. We haven't even gaveled in yet.

Yeah, you can feel it on the street for sure walking around today. Yeah, people are excited. The hotel's excited. Also, we should say thank you very much for bringing us some J-Beers. Yes. Some local beers. So Dan and I are boozing during this interview. Yeah, as we should. It's great. Well, they're specialty beers. So save the can at the end because it was my staff that put the label together, J-Beer, but it's actually made by, well, we've got an IPA made by Alter Brewing here in Chicago and a lager made by Sketchbook. I mean, these are actually really good beers. Yeah.

Yeah. So enjoy it and keep it as a souvenir. I would just note that Tommy and my beers are open. The governor's is closed. He's got a lot to do today. He's a busy guy. I'll crack it around 630. That's right. We're podcasters, so we got some free time. So,

So there's a lot of history for the Democratic Party in Chicago and for the Democratic Convention in particular. There were some really awful images from the DNC that have haunted the party for years. And a lot of Democrats have been worried about history repeating itself this year. You're talking about the Macarena. You're the governor of Illinois. Yeah.

You got to my joke. Can you pledge that no one will be doing the Macarena tonight or ever? Well, I was at that convention. So I actually did the Macarena at that convention and I have done one recreation for somebody. So no, I cannot promise that that has already happened.

Do you feel like it's fundamentally dishonest to invite thousands of people to Chicago in August and not have them experience a lake effect winter snowstorm? What do you mean? It is 74 degrees like this all year round. It's perfect all the time. I don't know what you, have you not been to Chicago before? I guess I must have blacked out that much. The great part about working on campaigns in Illinois, as we were talking before, is they're over in November.

So you get to, you know, figure it out. Well, I mean, we were here for a couple of winters. And I would say we appreciated working in a building that was connected to all the other buildings with an underpass. Yes. So you could get to work in the morning, leave late at night, and never go outside. Look, you don't appreciate a spring and a summer unless you've gone through a Chicago winter. It's true. And Chicago summers are spectacular. I'm not exaggerating when I say that. I am a little biased. But honestly, these are some great summers.

But yeah, January, February, my brother who lives in L.A. always calls me up and says, you know, how's the weather? And I always remind him that I love everything about L.A. except the people. Don't get on an L.A.-based company. My brother, my brother. So jokes aside, there are a lot of protesters in this city. Some of them are pro-Trump. A lot of them are concerned about the war in Gaza.

How do you balance their constitutional right to protest with the need to keep the city running, to keep this function going? Tell us about how you plan for that and allow those voices to be heard. Well, we started out with, of course, the principle that people are allowed to protest. And I've been to almost every Democratic convention since I was able to vote. So that's an awful long time. And there have been protests at every single one of them. And so it's our job to protect the

the protesters and their right to protest. What we aren't going to protect, of course, is the troublemakers, the people who are trying to cause mayhem or violence, right? And we haven't seen any of that. And I don't expect that we'll see any of that. I do think we're going to have vigorous protests. They're loud sometimes. Some guys walk around with a loudspeaker just hooked to themselves, you know, around their neck. Just love it. Yes. Exactly. And

Our goal is to protect them, but it's also the residents of Chicago and the 50,000 people that are coming to visit, making sure they have a great time while they're here, that they don't have any problems. And I have to say that the superintendent of police here in Chicago, a very experienced guy, he's well liked by the community.

department and everybody in the department. And so far, the planning here has been amazing, right? Every level of law enforcement is engaged, Secret Service, FBI, ATF, and then, of course, the Cook County Sheriff's Office, the Chicago Police Department itself, Illinois State Police. And then we've got surrounding police from surrounding states as well as surrounding communities in Illinois. So there's a lot of law enforcement.

There's also this is a national security event. So people who have this thing in mind about 1968, it was a whole different ballgame back then. Right. Wasn't we didn't live in a world where there was this kind of the terrorism that you sometimes see. And so there's a lot of protective engagement, protective accountability.

equipment, people, keeping things orderly on the ground. And then, you know, our job is to make sure we got a great convention for people who come. And as you've seen already, it's a beautiful place, United Center, and it's been put together so that I think everybody watching at home is going to enjoy the show.

You sort of built a reputation as a very direct, pugnacious messenger for the Democratic Party, sort of willing to call Trump and MAGA Republicans out on their BS. It used to be in the party that we were we sort of when they went low, we went high. What's your take on the tone so far you've heard from the Harris-Walls campaign?

I thought I was going high. High by non-Chicago standards. Yeah, okay, all right. Well, you know, look, the fact is that we live in a world where the Republicans apparently know there is no nadir to the low that they'll take. And so it's unfortunate, but we've got to make sure that people understand how dangerous the guy on the other side is to democracy. Yeah.

and the danger that he poses to working class families across the United States. I mean, I don't think anybody actually believes that he's in this for them. He's in this for himself. He's in this for Elon Musk. He's in this for the wealthiest people in America. And we just have to keep reminding people of that. And I've, you know, yes, when I ran for governor in 2017, 2018, every speech I gave, I'm not exaggerating,

And you remember, he had just taken office. So every speech I gave started with everything we care about is under siege by a racist, misogynist, homophobic, xenophobic. And I wasn't predicting anything. He had already shown all of that. I talked about him as somebody who is genuinely just a narcissist. And so I

I haven't stopped because he's still a narcissist. He's not changing. Apparently, even the threat to his own life that occurred hasn't changed him. I think we all had hoped maybe he might change, but no. So this is Donald Trump, you know, and we all have to call it out and make sure that we're saying it over and over. And we have to remind people because here's what happens. You know, the media said, you know, when you've got a week where Donald Trump acts normal and I can't remember a full week of that. Yeah.

Long weekend. Monday and half of Tuesday. Barely that. Maybe a couple hours in the middle of the night when he's sleeping. But the media forgets or they say, oh, look how normal he is. But we can't forget. I mean, this is a guy who spent his entire career lining his own pockets and, frankly, defrauding a lot of other people. Now he's been convicted of it 34 times.

So I think we just have to keep reminding everybody. And have I ever thought this way before in my life? No. Before 2015, I never thought we'd be in a political system where we're literally name-calling, right? I mean, on the other side, he's calling people names, making things up, like it's eighth grade or the fifth grade, you know, recess. And so, look, I...

I hate that politics have turned into this. I grew up in an environment, you know, my parents were Democrats through and through, but we knew Republicans. We had Republican relatives. I mean, Bob Dole, you know, Howard Baker, Jack Kemp, right? That all seems tame. You know, George W. Bush, as wrong as he was about the Iraq war. I mean, a tame, you know, somebody who's like a patriot, but just disagrees with us.

We live in a whole other world now. We got a lot of work to do. What do you make, speaking of name calling, what do you make of the new Democratic message calling J.D. Vance, MAG Republicans weird?

I mean, I think it's a good summation of a lot of stuff that we've heard about them and a way for people to kind of put it all together. And, you know, and I do think there's some weird things that I've heard about both of the candidates, of course, over time. But it's not something it's not a campaign theme that we can carry through for the next 79 days until election. I just think it's a good way for everybody to sort of stop and think like maybe not those guys. This is not normal.

Kind of pause, put them on the couch for a minute, evaluate them. Maybe a little more catharsis than constructive, perhaps. Yeah, that's fair. It feels good. Yeah, I mean, it's a short-lived minute, but yeah. Republicans love to attack Chicago. I mean, we experienced this when we were working for Obama. They talk about crime. They talk about the Democratic Party stealing votes for Kennedy in 60 years.

We were talking earlier about how four of the last ten Illinois governors wound up in the pokey. Congratulations for not. Yeah, congratulations. Yeah, really appreciate you guys giving me a microphone that has crooked on it here in Chicago. So, yeah. In hindsight, that was a mistake. Rod Blagojevich's hair, also a mistake.

Chicago, Illinois is being showcased this week. What do you want people to take away about this city, this state that they might not know or that might not kind of be the caricature they see on Fox News? Well, I hope the first and most noticeable thing is it's a beautiful city, right? We're on a lakefront. We've got beaches here. You know, some of the best blues you can find anywhere in the world.

We have great Chicago pizza and hot dogs. And, of course, you know, the bear has shown everybody we can do Italian beef better than anybody. So there's a lot to be said just for like it's a great city to come visit and certainly to live in.

I think the other thing that I'd like people to know is that, you know, one of the reasons we got chosen for this convention is because we've carried out the basic values of the Democratic Party, which are the basic values of everyday Americans right here in Illinois. We have protected reproductive rights here and workers' rights, which we put into our Constitution and voting rights and civil rights. We've stood up for our LGBTQ community. And then guess what?

We've created jobs. And I want to give Joe Biden a lot of credit because a lot of jobs have come back from overseas as a result of some of his policies. And here in Illinois, we're winning a lot of those companies coming here. And also union jobs, right? And people getting a good wage for a good day's work. So those are all things that Democrats stand for. The Republicans do not. They are against every single one of the things I just said. And so here, if you stand on top of the United Center where we're sitting right now,

You literally could point to seven things that happened because Democrats made them happen. I'm talking about improving our economy, building our roads and bridges, right, broadband. Just, I mean, lifting up communities that have been left out and left behind. Those are all things that are fundamental principles of the Democratic Party that here in Chicago and in Illinois we have carried out.

You mentioned the Bear. I want to talk about the Bears, Chicago Bears. You've got a great new quarterback. I think you're 3-0 in preseason. Are you ready to predict a Super Bowl victory? 100%. This year? In your lifetime? What are we talking about? I didn't say when. Okay.

Just going to happen at some point? It's going to happen, yeah. I mean, remember, I'm also a Cubs fan, so we waited 108 years for that, and it finally came. I don't think we have to wait that long for the Bears, I might add, but it has been a little while since we were in a Super Bowl. Now, the White Sox are 30 wins, 95 losses. Do you take responsibility for that, too, or is this you pushing them off to somebody else? Well, as a Bears fan, are you okay with it? Yeah.

I take responsibility for the teams that every Illinoisian loves. And I'm talking about even Cardinals fans. That's hard to do for a Cubs fan. But meanwhile, I'm a Cubs fan through and through. But I want the White Sox to do well because we've had a lot of years where Cubs weren't doing well, White Sox were. And so we need, you know, we want parity at least, or maybe Cubs doing a little bit better. But I'm, you know, I'm a

Sox fan and we want to make sure they do well. And, you know, people who live on the South side and love the Sox. Yeah. You're shaking your head. Like you can't imagine wanting to Sox to do well. Obama was a White Sox fan. Yeah. He's a White Sox fan. In 2005, John Favreau and I were sitting in his Senate office and

And you guys swept us. And he found a broom, came over to our desk, and started sweeping off our desk just to talk shit directly to his two lowly little employees. We swept the Red Sox? Us as the Red Sox in this? The Red Sox were swept by the Chicago White Sox. And Barack Obama decided to rub our faces in it. Yeah. Well, I would do that, too, if it had been the Cubs. As you should. And also the Red Sox. Come on.

Greatest franchise in history. Everyone knows that. I'm glad you brought up the bear because Chicago is a great food city. We had famous Chicagoan David Axelrod on this podcast last week. Yes. And Jon Favreau, our co-host, asked him for some restaurant recommendations for people here visiting Chicago. And Axelrod...

turned into some sort of politician and refused to name a single restaurant wishy-washy garbage wishy-washy yeah he was a he thought he wouldn't offend anyone i don't know what happened to him it's

What advice can you have a little more political courage in Axelrod and give people some good advice on where to eat in this great city over the next several days here? Well, should I start with I love all the restaurants, as evidenced by my size, I might add. We have some great restaurants, and it is a foodie town, right? We've got a lot of James Beard Award winners and, frankly, some of the best food you can find in the whole world. Wiener Circle, yeah. Wiener Circle, yes. I love the way you think, yeah. So...

There are a lot of places to recommend. I must say that if you're a steak eater, which we get a lot of great steak joints in town...

I'll name a couple, but I'm not going to get them all. Chicago Cut. Gibson's is a classic. I think everybody who's visited here as a tourist might have at least stopped there once. And then, you know, we got 77 neighborhoods of Chicago. So you can imagine we've got, you know, a cultural delight anywhere you go in the city of Chicago. So rather than, you know, and by the way, I took...

some friends out and we did a steak crawl okay that's aggressive it's aggressive anymore i will say there was there was a lot of alcohol involved also but uh but we did a steak crawl and no we did not each have a steak at each of the five restaurants that we went to but we got one steak at each place they thought we were crazy we walked in the door and say could you you know give us a new york strip medium rare and cut it into you know did you mix cuts different cut at every restaurant

No. Okay. No, it's exactly the same. New York trip in every place. And we had a scorecard. Oh, nice. And so I'm not going to tell you which one won because that really would be taking sides. But Axe is not wrong to have difficulty naming one restaurant for your couple. In Axe's defense, he did imply that Manny's Deli is the one place you should go. Certainly if you're in politics, I got to say every one of my election victories was

has been preceded by a visit to Manny's. Oh, that's good. It's a good tradition. When Mike Ditka briefly pretended he was going to run against Barack Obama in 2004, he would only do TV interviews from his restaurant, which I believe is called Ditka's.

in the kind of Gold Coast area, which I thought was a savvy marketing move. I don't think so. No. I think it went bankrupt. But then he backed Trump, I think. He did. Boy, did he. That's where it goes hand in hand, Trump. You're on the hard way. Bankruptcy. There you go. Well, Governor, thank you so much for being here. Yeah. Great to see you guys. Good luck this week. Thank you. You too. That's our show for tonight. Almost. Friends of the Pod subscribers get an exclusive bonus segment. We're going to be doing these subscription segments every night. We're here, and each one's going to be a little different.

This next one, Tommy and Dan will be answering audience questions, telling some behind-the-scenes stories, and playing a round of Take Appreciator with Elijah. I hear they kiss. Sign up for Friend of the Pod. And they kiss. But you've got to be a subscriber to get it and to watch it. If you're already a subscriber. If you're not, sign up. Morning from Baltic. It's 12, 14 a.m. Head to crooked.com slash friends or sign up through the Apple Podcast app.

That's it for us. All of us will talk to you tomorrow. Bye, everyone. Bye. Let's go home.

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Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producer is David Toledo. Our associate producers are Saul Rubin and Farrah Safari. Reid Cherlin is our executive editor and Adrian Hill is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis.

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