Rage at Madison Square Garden
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Big, big deep breath. Don't like that. In, out. Our two candidates for president could not be closing more differently. Kamala Harris held rallies with Michelle Obama and Beyonce that hit on themes of reproductive freedom and bringing the country together, while Donald Trump just headlined a five-hour rally at New York City's Madison Square Garden that was filled with more hate and open racism than we've heard at a political event, I think in decades. Even a Trump event, I cannot remember anything quite like this.

We'll get into all that. And then later, former Speaker Nancy Pelosi talks with Alyssa Mastromonaco about what it's like to be one of Trump's enemies within, what's keeping her up at night and what she's expecting on Election Day. But first...

So I'll be honest, when people were comparing Trump's plans to hold a rally at Madison Square Garden to the pro-Nazi rally that was held there in 1939, I thought it was a bit much. Plenty of other presidential candidates from both parties have held rallies at the garden over the years. The

that no one would confuse for being pro-Nazi. But regardless of what words you might use to describe Trump's rally, you can decide for yourself whether J.D. Vance was right in later calling it a, quote, celebration of America. Let's listen. And these Latinos, they love making babies, too. Just know that. They do. They do. There's no pulling out.

They don't do that. They come inside just like they did to our country. There's a lot going on. Like, I don't know if you guys know this, but there's literally a floating island of garbage in the middle of the ocean right now. Yeah. I think it's called Puerto Rico. All right. Heck yeah. It's cool. Black guy with a thing on his head. What the hell is that? A lampshade? Look at this guy. Oh my goodness. Wow.

I'm just kidding, that's one of my buddies. He had a Halloween party last night. We had fun, we carved watermelons together. It was awesome. As the first Samoan Malaysian low IQ former California prosecutor ever to be elected president, it was just a groundswell of popular support. She is the devil, whoever screamed that out. She is the antichrist. She is some sick bastard, that Hillary Clinton, huh? What a sick son of a bitch.

The whole fucking party, a bunch of degenerates, low-lives Jew haters and low-lives. Every one of them. We need to slaughter this other people. America is for Americans and Americans only. When I say the enemy from within, the other side goes crazy, becomes a sound. Oh, how can he say? No, they've done very bad things to this country. They are indeed the enemy from within. But this is who we're fighting.

a day of love another day of love general impressions guys do you think that uh got some undecided voters off the fence what do you think i mean weirdly trump's actual speech was basically just a stump speech to a bigger than usual crowd if it had just been him i think it would have kind of been a nothing burger but they decided to turn it into basically another day of the rnc it's interminable rnc was much nicer well just this like long endless

you know, group of speakers and some of them more effective and some of them were boring and some of them cross the line in ways that I don't think we've ever heard at a Trump rally, at least not recently. And by the way, just to your point that it was like an RNC, these were not people just going up there and speaking off the cup. These were open mic night. Yeah. These were vetted speeches. In fact, there's reporting that these were that, that the, that the Puerto Rico comment, uh,

was in a speech that was put through a teleprompter and that they took out some of the other material for being offensive. There was a line in his original speech that called Kamala Harris the C-word, and the campaign took that line out. But then they sent the rest of that speech right to the prompters, although the campaign is saying he ad-libbed

The Puerto Rico joke. The general impression of the whole thing is a reminder that for a lot of like the core base, like Trump is a personality hire for bigots. You know, he's just like he's their avatar. And when these people have a few hours to, I don't know, drink, be bored. This is what comes out. But pretty, pretty ugly. And like, I have to imagine fundamentally unhelpful. Yeah. I will say, too.

You're right. It was just Trump's rally speech. It was Trump's typical stump speech. But like doubling down on the enemy from within, which is why I wanted to play that part of it. And, you know, he did the we're an occupied country liberation. It's like.

I guess we're numb to it because he's said it so many times now. Yeah, we're very much numb to it. But on its own is incredibly dark to a way to close the campaign. Like when you really I was listening to that because I listened to his whole speech because I was wondering if he would do anything different, you know, and he's really like even in 2016, even in 2020, he was like going down a rabbit hole of talking about like the FBI and Peter Strzok and things you had to like have a conversation.

a degree in MAGA, online MAGA, to know what he's talking about. 2016, he's still talking about the Washington establishment. We're going to fight them. He basically, when everyone's like, oh, what are Kamala Harris's plans? Donald Trump is only offering in his speeches now, like deporting even legal immigrants, I guess drilling,

Tariffs. Tariffs and enemies list. And I'm going to prosecute people. That's it. That's all he's doing now. And then the rest is just like an hour of grievance. Some tax cuts for corporations. Yeah. I mean, you could tell what the campaign wanted was at the very beginning, which is, are you better off than you were four years ago? Kamala, you're fired. Get out. Right. You could tell that's what they wanted on the evening news. But then he ends up doing these crazy riffs about how there's a couple hundred thousand shenanigans.

kids who are missing in the U.S. or dead or they're sex slaves and they came in because of Kamala's open border. They played like this like snuff footage news clip reel a couple different times. They played all this like

really disgusting, you know, sort of descriptions of crimes by undocumented people. I mean, it is, it's gotten so, so dark and we are very much used to it. But, you know, that darkness in his speech is not what led the headlines. It was these people who came before him. I also, there's been so much focus, we're going to talk about it more on Tony Hinchcliffe, that comedian that did the Puerto Rico joke.

But the reason I want to play all those other voices is the Trump campaign. Their response now is like, oh, it's a joke. It was one joke. Like, no, no, no, no. America is only for Americans. That's Stephen. That was Stephen Miller, his top policy advisor, potentially the next White House chief of staff.

the things they said about Hillary Clinton, about Kamala Harris. I mean, it was not just one joke about Puerto Rico. There's Rudy Giuliani getting up there and saying hateful things about Palestinians. Do you guys think that the Trump campaign was happy with how that went?

They can't be. I mean, when your main headline is about whether the warm-up act, literally first speaker at the rally, has hurt your standing with all Latino voters, like that is not a good headline. And again, it wasn't just AOC weighing in. It wasn't Democrats. They can't just say this was cancel culture. The campaign had to walk back from this joke.

a bunch of Florida elected officials put out statements. Trump's trade advisor, Peter Navarro, who's like a real MAGA dead ender called Tony Hinchcliffe the biggest, stupidest asshole that ever came down the comedy pike. That's a Trump advisor saying that. So this is a real mess. And you can't just blame the comedian. Like,

His show kill Tony is a roast comedy show. A lot of the jokes there are like them saying whatever is kind of the most offensive shocking thing and often it's very very racist and you can love it. You can hate it. You can listen to that but but it

booking that guy to do that set at a political rally is unbelievably stupid. It is political malpractice. And it's, of course this was going to happen because like you can get away with saying things at a comedy club. You can't ever, ever say at a political rally, they are morons for letting him get there. Or the other guy who said Hillary Clinton's a son of a bitch or the guy that said that we should slaughter the Democrats or, I mean, like there's just, it's on and on and on past just the comedian. Book all these people. And also just that like,

In the same way that like, I think they were caught off guard by the revulsion to JD Vance because they don't realize how offensive some of the things he has said are in the past. Like they don't realize how strange and extreme and bigoted they've gotten. I think that's another case, right? They have this guy, a lot of the remarks are vetted, right? This is what they want people to get up there and say. And I think, of course, they're now backtracking because the backlash was so severe, but like

They wanted this to be a bigoted, rabble-rousing event. They are enjoying the comparison. Tucker Carlson saying that Kamala Harris is Samoan or Malaysian or whatever when he fucking knows better. Interestingly, I mean, per usual, Tucker Carlson kind of

played narrator at this thing where he talked about how he had been given from Trump the gift of freedom and liberation by being able to say what he really thinks now, right? And then you just saw it throughout all these speakers. And the biggest problem with the Kill Tony jokes, the Tony Henscliff jokes were racist and awful. They also were not even funny. They weren't jokes. They were just like shitty observations. And you can get away with a lot of things if you're funny, but also buddy, this wasn't a comedy set. It was also an endorsement speech.

He ended by saying like, uh, God voted three months ago. We voted in a week.

Because you said Trump survived the assassination attempt. It's not a fucking comedy show and a comedian just doing a bit and free speech and cancel culture when the candidate's top policy advisor gets up there a week before the election and says, America's for Americans and Americans only. And then the speakers at the rally start saying, making jokes about Puerto Ricans, black Americans, a number of other people. And it just, it's...

It's what they want, right? Like, it is their worldview, right? And they wanted to get that across. Yes. I also, like... And Tucker Carlson... We'll talk about more of this later, but, like, Tucker Carlson basically saying, like...

if they tell you Kamala Harris won, it's illegitimate. It's inconceivable that she won because of our racist views on her, which teach, which tell us that anyone who says she's compelling or successful as a politician is lying to you. And I'm not going to lie anymore. I'm going to be honest about my racism. Look, it was a night of disgusting, racist, anti-democratic, anti-American speeches. But this idea that like,

A guy makes a fucking terrible joke like this, which is not just racist, but as Tommy said, a bad joke. And then people are criticizing it. It's like, oh, you guys can't take a fucking joke. I hate it. I fucking hate that. Like this guy, this guy posted a video of Don Rickles at...

Ronald Reagan's second inaugural saying nobody had a problem with Don Rickles speaking at Ronald Reagan's second inaugural. First of all, it wasn't a political event. It was a nonpartisan event. Also, Don Rickles turning over in his fucking grave and the number of like hacky fucking terrible comedians who say Don Rickles was an equal opportunity offender is like it's very frustrating. It's also like

hey man, like you can joke about whatever you wanna joke about. It has to be fucking funny. And like Jeselnik has talked about this, a bunch of other comedians talked about it. Seinfeld, by the way, went out there and said like, you can't make any jokes anymore. The PC culture is coming after it. And he actually thought about it. And he came back later and said, you know what? I thought about it. That was a stupid thing to say. I don't believe that. Why? Because culture change and politics change and you have to hit the goalposts.

Like the goalposts may move. What's funny may be harder, maybe more difficult and you have to fucking hit it. And like the idea that these terrible fucking comedians make the dumbest, worst jokes and then everybody has to defend them because of their free speech is very frustrating. If the joke was funny, we wouldn't be in this. I know. I just, I get like,

It's not the most important point. No, I know. I know you know that, but it's what they want this to be another debate about comedy and cancel culture and what's acceptable. And it's like, that is not what this is about. You are, of course not. And you weren't canceled, man. You were speaking at Madison Square Garden in front of 28,000 people sucking up to the former and maybe future president in the United States. You were kissing his ass. You were kissing the ring. Your joke sucked. Everyone let you know, get over it. You're not a fucking victim.

I think it's also bad for like, however, whatever effect this may or may not have on actual voters. I do think there are now seven days left at the time. There were eight days left. So they lose Monday now because Monday was all about Madison Square Garden and the fact that they had like a hateful racist rally. Tuesday now is going to be Kamala Harris's closing argument speech. They lose. She gets the spotlight for Tuesday. So they're just losing days. Yeah. And we keep talking because

because we're on the Kamala Harris side about like, she needs to close the deal. She needs to do this. The race is pretty much tied. Like Trump needs to close the deal too with voters. And he just lost, he's just lost a day doing that at the very least, if not worse, if not like getting people off the fence to say like, that's fucking crazy, you know? Yeah, I think we just don't know the full effect of this kind of rally in the closing days and what it looks like for people to be hearing about it. And like, cause I do think that there's a bunch of people

that are in this homestretch going to be reaching out to friends and loved ones to be like, hey, I know you've seen a lot of things. I know you were saying like this. Here's why I think this is important. And this is a very good time for Trump to be part of something so awful. And it doesn't seem like a coincidence that yesterday, Bad Bunny, Ricky Martin, and J-Lo all endorsed Kamala Harris. Well, it was a coincidence that...

earlier in the day before this even happened, she released her economic plan for Puerto Rico in Philadelphia. That was just like, what timing? There are 470,000 Puerto Rican Americans in Pennsylvania. It's the biggest population of Puerto Rican Americans of any swing state, certainly larger than Biden's 80,000 vote margin, a victory in 2020. This is probably one reason, as Tommy mentioned, that a lot of Republican politicians sort of like fell all over themselves to condemn this. Rick Scott, Florida's got, I think, a million Puerto Rican Americans.

And we wanted to find out whether this might actually have an electoral effect next week. So we checked in with our pal Carlos Odio, Democratic strategist who's an expert on the Latino vote. Here's what he said. We're used to Trump and his allies saying wildly offensive things, but those things don't always make it to the kind of low information voters who are going to decide where this ends up at the end of the day.

And so I want to do manage expectations that this is not providing new information. But if there is an exception, I would say it is the Puerto Rican piece, specifically because of the way that those comments, those incredibly unfunny comments were so incendiary, they were almost designed to be amplified at scale.

I'm surprised WhatsApp didn't go down in Puerto Rico and in Central Florida and in Allentown and Reading, Pennsylvania. And they were instantly amplified by major players who had been on the sidelines of this election. So you had Bad Bunny and Ricky Martin weighing in for Harris. Normally, you would say in the era of Trump, these things go down a rabbit hole. And yet this particular moment and in the way it was timed,

felt like it could be an exception. So the Harris campaign also has a new ad out today. I can't tell if it's a video ad or how much money is behind it or whatever, but they made an ad about this. Nate Silver also did a little research and he says there's some initial evidence that the rally is drawing broader attention today and yesterday are the top days of Google search traffic for Trump since the second assassination attempt against him in September.

The chart was interesting. It's like this pretty straight lines. The first assassination is like off the charts. Conviction is pretty small. That's a bump, though. Second assassination is like the conviction, a little bump. And then now this is getting up towards that level, which I think is pretty telling. Yeah, I talked to AOC, which you'll hear on Wednesday. It was before the rally, but we talked about Puerto Rico. And I do think there's something about.

That just the referring to Puerto Rico is garbage and reflecting the kind of the bigotry of that rally, like the sense that Puerto Rico was forgotten and disrespected after Maria and that this is a place that has been ignored by politicians, that Trump corruption contributed to the terrible response in Puerto Rico. I do think like all of this is like part of the ground on which this comment was.

And so, yeah. It's also the period of time when people who don't ever think about politics are thinking about it for maybe the first time in four years. Right. Because they're deciding whether to vote. And this can't be helpful. Yeah.

No. And again, like and that's with we've been talking about the Puerto Rican American community. But if, you know, Google trends and Google searches of Trump are like anyone who gets any part of that rally. Yeah, there's not there's there's almost no good parts of that rally. Yeah. I mean, I mean, voters all across the country, you know, I'm not thinking about politics are like that stuff. Yeah. And if you see the hell and look, look, the the headlines are.

you know, a lot of critique about headlines over the last several years. They all, New York Times, Politico, Washington Post, they all had, you know, racist incendiary rally in the remarks. Like, I think this is one that broke through again because it's the fucking final week of the campaign. Not the most important point, but a group of people that I'm sure are

yell when they have to press one for English. Hillary Clinton would not be a son of a bitch. She would just be a bitch. That bothered you, I know. It's like you're going to claim you're bothered by people speaking Spanish. You don't speak fucking English. That is very true. You got him. Trump also said... Point well taken. Trump also sat down with Joe Rogan on Friday. I know that's a few days ago now, but...

In fairness, that's how long it takes to listen to Joe Rogan's podcast. Almost literally. The interview clocked in at about three hours. And as of Monday afternoon, though, has nearly 35 million views on YouTube alone. Wow. Did you guys have, how far did YouTube make it? I am an hour and a half in and I'm just like, I can't do it anymore. Made it to the whole, made it through the whole thing at two point. Same. Mostly two speed.

I got to say two. I got to 3.5. It was about politics. What do you get at 3.5? He talks slow enough that you get more than you think. I'll tell you something. When you played the clip of the rally, I'm so used to, I try to avoid watching Trump live so that I can watch him faster so there's less time spent on Trump. And so I listened to him at two. I was like, wow, he's pretty energetic. And then when I, I think I moved from my car to back to my phone and then he was back at 1X. I was like, Jesus Christ, this is terrible. Yeah.

What did you guys think? I'll tell you what I thought, which is first. So if you saw somebody on social media telling you that it's the worst interview Trump ever did, that it was embarrassing, that Joe Rogan was horrified and thought Trump was embarrassing. You should just keep in mind that those are people you should not listen to because it was fake fucking news. Do I think it's like a groundbreaking interview? Of course not. He rambles and he gives basically all of his same answers. But as a forum for Trump, it was also like, I think,

the best kind of interview he could hope to get. Joe Rogan was incredibly solicitous, kind of keying him up with ways to take on some of the arguments from the left. It was a love fest for Trump.

Do I think that necessarily matters? I have no fucking idea, but it was not. It was a good interview for him. Yeah, I'm not like a fan of Rogan's and a regular listener. I'm not a hater because I've like dipped in at times and heard celebrity interviews and things that were interesting. And, you know, obviously he's very successful. So I going into it, I had like a little bit of hope that because he'd been critical of Trump and because he was an RFK guy, maybe he would push him on some things during the three hours. Maybe he'd do a little research.

to prep himself but like I was couldn't have been more disappointed it was entirely friendly Rogan took everything at face value from uh from you know Trump saying he said some secret thing to Putin to prevent him from invading Ukraine to Trump bragging about being able to run on a treadmill all day even at the highest elevation like everything was taken at face value

Rogan, he kicked off the questioning about the 2020 election denial by basically saying, you know, everyone does this Hillary question 2016, yada, yada, yada. But never really like he came back to it, but he didn't get past it. There was one point where he said, are you ever going to show us the evidence? That was a good moment, I suppose. But yeah, like it was a it was I feel like it was an example to me of like.

I see a bunch of people are like canceling their Washington Post subscriptions because they're mad that Jeff Bezos' Washington Post is not endorsing. And it just, I think, is that a helpful thing to punish the journalists of the Washington Post? I do not think so. But where does that impulse come from? And I think part of where it comes from is this kind of like

endless feeling of like dispiriting exhaustion that like there's a fundamentally fraudulent case Donald Trump is offering. It's just a fundamentally flawed and fraudulent case. And this was just a forum for him to lay out that case. But if it's not questioned, if it's not challenged, if it's entirely solicitous, you see why if you're not paying that close of attention or if you're receptive to in the first place, why Donald Trump is so appealing. Because in that forum,

It's all it's a ton of lies and bullshit and self-aggrandizing made up stories. But it's compelling and charming in it. I thought it was not compelling. He was not good. He's meandering. He's me and not even because of the like all the frames about Trump. It's not the the bigotry and lies from the rally. It wasn't that it's not the he's addled and losing it kind of shit. He is just he's a he's a bad conversationalist because all he cares about. You don't get the weave, dude.

Right. All he cares about is himself and his fucking stories. And he's one of those people, like you could tell, and I was watching some of it too. You could tell Rogan too, like Rogan was extremely solicitous and very nice to him. But you could tell at times Rogan's looking at him like, okay, what next? Like he just, the stories he, and first of all, all of the stories, I mean, if we've been listening to Trump for way too long, all the stories we heard before. A thousand times. Again, we now...

we analyze Kamala Harris's speeches now and her interviews and be like, oh, did she talk about people though? Is she talking about what she's going to do for people? Donald Trump...

was like at one point at the beginning he was bitching about how hard it is to build things in New York because of all the environmental regulations and the permits and the unions and he's yelling and he's and it's like he's like talking about something from 10 15 years ago then he's talking about burying windmills and blades and it just it is all like it is it's self-aggrandizing I just I cannot imagine that unless you were a Trump fan if you could sit through that whole thing you'd be like yeah this guy

I think this guy could be in charge. This guy is looking out for me. That's not where I landed. That's not where I landed either. I just...

I think that the way he was talking about it, he talks about it. Again, it's all just bullshit. What did you think was appealing? First of all, they had charming interactions about UFC and about fighters. Trump knows his stuff when it comes to UFC and boxing, and they connected on that, and the audience really likes that. Yeah, I can see that. The stuff about building, it's all pretend, right? But he's kind of...

trying to display for that audience a kind of like, I know about building. There was a conversation about staffing up and how you have to use politicians because if you use business people that haven't been vetted before, he just, to me, it was like the, of course, yes, he's rambling and the stories go on forever and occasionally Rogan didn't know exactly what he was talking about. But inside of that was like a section where he talked about how moved he was to be at the White House when he became president. There was a

a section where he talked about the economy and taxes. Now it's ultimately a bullshit case, but I felt like it conveyed the kind of like Donald Trump as businessman, this sort of affable outsider that is what he's been trying to convey. I don't know if it gets him anything. I do think they connected on some level. I definitely think he rambled on

that audience might be gone. I think Rogan is looking for conspiracies in every corner, and I think Trump served them up frequently. The thing that just, he was just so frustratingly uninformed. Again, I know Joe Rogan is in Meet the Press, but he referred to Kamala Harris being in her late 40s. He was talking about the bipartisan immigration bill that Trump killed, and he literally said to Trump,

What was in that bill? It's like, buddy, you could have Googled that. This is my hobby horse, but there's no pushback or context about the Afghanistan withdrawal and the fact that Trump negotiated the withdrawal timeframe. Rogan's a big RFK guy. He's talking about healthy foods. There's no...

Thinking or acknowledgement that Republicans are the ones who like want to get rid of the EPA to allow all these chemicals into our atmosphere and make our foods less healthy. So just it made me insane and remind me to tell you, I watched an after the show clip. Oh, God. Rogan criticized one part about Trump. And I'll I'll tell you what that was after we're done with that. But like stepping back from it, what I was thinking when I was watching the interview is.

to that interview that his two advisors gave to Semaphore about what their strategy is. And I do think if you watched all three hours of that interview, you come away a little bit inoculated against the idea that Donald Trump is some like fascist menace. I just think you do because the section about 20, about the vote in 2020 was so favorable to Trump. There was nothing about the insurrection. He just, I think comes across as,

uh, in this non-threatening way in that forum. And I do think it's like worth keeping that in mind when we try, when we get to talking about the argument around fascism and all the rest that like, this is a version of Trump that, you know, a lot of people are seeing. And it's, it's, uh, I think it's, I, I just don't want to dismiss it.

Yeah, I wouldn't dismiss it at all. I'm just saying, and I think that on some of these podcasts that he's done, it is a good forum for him. And he sounded better. I think on this one, he was very... To me, you're right. If people are worried about the fascism thing, that's going to help that. But at this stage, a week out...

If you're undecided, first of all, if you're undecided to week out, I don't know that you're listening to three hours of Joe Rogan because you're probably a low information voter, low propensity voter. So that's, you know, uncertain. And

At this point, you want to be... Again, we're going to say this about Kamala Harris. We've been saying it for a month. You want to know, like, what is this person going to do for me? Right? And I don't think that he did that at all. You know? Yeah. I think that Rogan was a bit of a Trump skeptic, and this interview all but stamped his approval on him by the end. And I don't know how many people that moves or if it matters, but on the margins, it could, especially given the 35 million number you cited on YouTube. Yeah. I had the same disappointment that you did. I was like, oh, I just...

I also bought into some of what I'd seen online before I went into it, and I was like, oh, maybe Rogan's going to push back here and there, but it just wasn't there. So the Harris campaign said that they were interested in going on, but it didn't work out. What do you guys think about that? It's a huge show. I think writing off any audience generally is a mistake in politics. I'd love to see Obama go on or Colin Allred or somebody who might jive with him in terms of love of sports, but I think...

In a normal length campaign, it would be a mistake to skip it. Doing it now, a few weeks left, got to go to Texas, got to spend three hours. Like, I don't know that Harris should have done it. I think it would probably have been a bad use of time. Yeah, it would have been a bad interview. I think like he, for all the reasons that you guys cited and haven't listened to half of it, he clearly loves Trump. He didn't, you know, endorse Trump up to this, but he's, he's, he's,

Got his facts wrong on a whole bunch of things he's not pushing back. He's got Trump's worldview. He's got RFK Jr.'s worldview probably more than Trump. Kamala Harris does not. And so she would have to spend I don't know how many hours going back and forth with him over like basic facts that he would – you know, like I just – it would –

He claims he wasn't going to push her on that. He claims he just wanted to have like a, who are you? What's your deal conversation? But yeah, I mean, he has a, he's clearly got the kind of aggrieved, you know, cancel culture, whiner worldview. And I think with Brett Baer on Fox, you know that it is a set amount of time for the interview that you're going to push back, that you're going to do this. You can't do that for two hours and three hours. I also like, I take to heart what, uh,

binder told Dan, which is that, you know, there's all this sort of discourse around this, the unique set of issues that appeal to young men that we're trying to reach, but actually they care about the same set of issues as everybody else to a large extent. And so to me, it'd be less about like, should she do this one interview? I do think this larger constellation of kind of less political podcast and YouTube shows that are aimed at men, like

I would like to see us engaging with them more and like the Theo Vons of the world and all the rest. But beyond that, it's like, well, she is going to a lot of places where you reach young men. She's on Charlemagne. She's doing all kinds of things. So like they do have a strategy around this. Does Rogan necessarily fit into that? Maybe, maybe not, but it's just one show. Yeah. I am. Look, I've always been on this in this train, but like do not go on a show because you're platforming whatever. I'm just I've been long done with.

Oh, yeah, I don't care. It's a big show with a big audience. You go on. If you're in politics, right? Like that's you're trying to reach people. You go do it, you know, unless you think it's not going to serve you politically because the substance of the interview itself is not going to make up for the reach that you get. Rigged against you. Yeah. So I caught this quick clip of Rogan talking with some of his buddies after he'd recorded it. And the guys were like, what'd you talk about? And one of them said,

Did you ask him why he was so pro-vaccine? And Rogan's like, ah, kind of. I mean, the only time I was sort of frustrated in the interview was Trump started talking about the polio vaccine eradicating the disease. And I wanted to show him the chart of how that actually isn't true. And it's like, but he said, I decided not to get into it because I didn't want to go down a long path.

about vaccines and it's like okay wait so the one time you were disappointed in this interview Joe Rogan was when Donald Trump said the polio vaccine eradicated polio now imagine interviewing Kamala Harris and and and him bringing up that point what do you even do I don't know yeah like so now we're gonna have Kamala Harris prep I mean I I have changed my mind on this because at first I was like well I think it might be good for her to go on but having listened to him to Trump

And even that, it's like you're going to have to prep Kamala Harris now for a day where you, instead of prepping her with just all the things you'd prep her for for normal interviews, you'd be like, oh, by the way, on vaccines, you've got to know your shit on polio and this study and that. I mean, come on. Six months ago, yes. Now, right. Exactly. Yeah.

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So everything we see shows the race is still a toss up. But the Trump campaign and Magra World are as confident and cocky as I think I've ever heard them, even more so than in 16 or 20. After campaigning in places like New York, California, Colorado, Trump is also making stops in New Mexico and Virginia this week. Two states Republicans haven't won in decades, two decades. And here's a puzzling comment Trump made to Speaker Mike Johnson during the MSG rally on Sunday. And

And I think with our little secret, we're going to do really well with the house, right? Our little secret is having a big impact. He and I have a secret. We'll tell you what it is when the race is over.

So Johnson got asked on Monday what the secret might be, and he said, by definition, a secret is not to be shared, and I don't intend to share this one. Do you think... You fucking... What the fuck kind of like... I'm sorry. Dictionary.com over there. Do you think that Trump made Johnson his accountability partner on that app that he uses to monitor his kids' porn intake? It has to be. Trump is fucking... Like, if...

he should be just an aging drag queen. Cause that's, that's like the energy of these comments. Just a kind of like, it's a, it's a sunset Boulevard. Like me and Mike Johnson, we have a little secret. Don't we, Mikey? We have a secret. Shh. Don't tell anybody what we talked about. Anyway, immigrants, maybe they have a secret plan to actually hang Mike Pence. Yeah. All right. Finish the job. So just to have a conversation about this, uh,

Some people are wondering if this has to do with...

some plan between Johnson and Trump so that if like, you know, if Harris wins and Johnson still speaker of the house, that he will not certify the election or he'll engage in some shenanigans. And then he'll try to throw the election to the house. In which case, if the house votes, then Trump wins. I don't know. I don't, what do you guys think? I did not quite get that. It's possible, but just the verb tenses that Trump used, it makes me, it made me, it, I took it as, um,

they've got a secret about how to win the house, not that. But I don't know. I didn't know either. And I don't ever want to find out. So everybody do everything you can to win the fucking house. Like if we win the house on January 3rd, Mike Johnson and Donald Trump could have whatever fucking bedroom secrets they want to have. And it won't matter. It could really matter if Mike Johnson is still the speaker. So I really like...

The fact that like there was this, this, this was a line that came at the end of hours of menace of Tucker Carlson, basically denying any kind of Kamala win could be legitimate. And it felt menacing when you hear it. I like the feeling I had when I heard him say it was like, oh, that's a menacing fucking comment. Maybe it's innocuous. It's their secret fucking game plan to win the house. I don't know. I don't want to find out. I want people to be clear about that, too, because I saw some people saying, oh, well, even if if Harris wins,

even if Democrats win the House, Johnson will still be speaker during January. He won't be. He won't be. He won't be. The new Congress will be seated for January 6th. Will be wild. Hopefully less wild. Hopefully less wild. But it'll be. So if Hakeem Jeffries is speaker and then also even if, you know, whoever they have, if the Republicans win the Senate and whoever the leader is there, there's still not. We got it.

If that happens, we got it, at least in the Congress part. There's no shenanigans in Congress at that point because we would control the House. But to the point you made about Tucker, right, because Tucker's doing this, how could she possibly win 86 million votes or whatever? And this is, if you look on social media right now, every fucking blue checked MAGA account, they are, we

We talk about like, don't read too much into the early vote. They think the early vote is like just they are crushing Democrats right now. They're like Trump is going to win all seven states. And like they they have. I don't know whether they actually believe this or whether they're just like, you know, spewing bullshit. But like if Trump loses.

It is, they are, talk about stop the steal. Like they are very primed to say that there's absolutely no way possible that Kamala Harris could have won this election. Yeah, whether they're being cynical or naive, I think one of the big lessons of a decade of Trump is it doesn't matter. In either way, this is what they're going to pretend to have believed if Donald Trump loses. So I do think that that matters. I do, but I also like, I think it's like, yes, it's about getting ready for post-election shenanigans, but I do think part of it is like,

Look, any campaign puts up yard signs like yard signs are about a bandwagon effect. We all do that. Everybody does that. But there's something specific about Trump because so much of the argument is about character and about him being sort of morally unacceptable. And so creating a kind of permission structure that's like they're all crazy. Look, the country's behind him. Like you come on board. Right. Everybody's doing it. And I think that matters more for him than it would for a normal candidate. Yeah. Yeah.

Meanwhile, Kamala Harris is keeping up her breakneck schedule in the battlegrounds. She's in Michigan as we're recording this. Three rallies today in Michigan, three events. Nice. And earlier today, she responded on the tarmac to a reporter's question about

about Trump's Madison Square Garden hate fest. Here's that response along with comments from AOC, who is of course Puerto Rican American herself. And she responded during the rally while live streaming a game of Madden NFL 25 with Tim Walls on Twitch. It's 2024. That's what we're doing right now. All right, let's listen. Donald Trump has, this is not new about him, by the way. What he did last night is not a discovery. It is just more of the same and maybe more vivid than usual.

Donald Trump spends full time trying to have Americans point their finger at each other, fans the fuel of hate and division. And that's why people are exhausted with him. I need people to understand that when they when you have some a-hole calling Puerto Rico floating garbage, know that that's what they think about you.

That is like, that's just what they think about you. It's what they think about anyone who makes less money than them. It's what they think about the people who serve them food in a restaurant. It's what they think about the people who, who fold their clothes in a store. Like,

You're right. Are you serious? Like, are you serious? Yeah. The privilege of being on this campaign is traveling across the entire country. There are hundreds of thousands of Puerto Ricans across in battleground states that need to send them a message. What do you guys think about the way Harris responded? AOC walls.

First of all, I want Kamala to get away from the jet engines. I'm never going to let this go. I also was wondering why is Tim Walz whispering like he doesn't want his mom to hear him playing Madden? It was like, I'm like, everyone's very chill right now. Where is our defense? What's happening? I don't know. I thought AOC was particularly good on this because she understands and is from the community and she's a really credible messenger. And it dovetails with the broader argument she's been making about Elon Musk.

that he's laughing at you, they're mocking you, and they dangle the million-dollar check. They're mocking you. They don't care about you. They don't understand you. I think that was effective. The Harris comments about divisiveness and division and feeling the flames, they're accurate, but it is giving me a little bit of 2016 PTSD, if I'm being totally honest. Oh, really? I thought it was great. I thought she's...

She doesn't want to get offended by them. No, I think 2016 would be like, this is racist. This is offensive. Blah, blah, blah, blah. That was what 2016 was. She's saying like, it's the same old divisive shit. Yeah, she is saying the same old, right? And we're going to get into the whole...

future forward thing and focus on economic stuff, but that's the pivot she's making. She's not taking the bait. She's not saying like, I'm going to go on and on the rally and say how offensive it is. Well, she commented on multiple times. So, I mean, there's certainly, I don't know if taking the bait or not, but they are certainly talking about it. They cut an ad about it that we mentioned earlier. They're doing a lot of things to highlight this part of the story.

Yeah. But I think the way that the message is from her is that he should be focused. He's not focusing on you and I'm going to be focusing on you, which is the right message. I think that's right. So as we get close to the end, the A-list surrogates are out on the trail for Harris. On Friday, of course, Harris and Beyonce rallied together in Houston. And then on Saturday, Michelle Obama appeared with the VP at a rally in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Let's listen. We are at the precipice of an incredible shift, the brink of history. I'm not here as a celebrity.

I'm not here as a politician. I'm here as a mother. A mother who cares deeply about the world my children and all of our children live in. A world where we have the freedom to control our bodies. Do not put our lives in the hands of politicians, mostly men.

who have no clue or do not care about what we as women are going through. Please, please do not hand our fates over to the likes of Trump, who knows nothing about us, who has shown deep contempt for us, because a vote for him is a vote against us, against our health, against our work. So fellas, before you cast your votes, ask yourselves,

What side of history do you want to be on? I would encourage everyone to watch the entire Michelle Obama speech. They call her the closer for a reason. What do you guys think of the speech?

I mean, I thought it was one of the best political speeches I've heard in a long time. I was really moved by it, thinking about it. She was emotional delivering it. And I actually was thinking like you put that Joe Rogan interview up against Michelle Obama, and I just think Michelle Obama wins every time. Because yes, that might have been the most effective version of Trump you'll see, right? The affable businessman shooting the shit with Joe Rogan, but this was about the stakes. And I

I found it persuasive. It was persuasive. It was aimed at people who aren't paying a lot of attention, but it was also aimed at people who are paying a lot of attention and the best argument they can make to the people in their lives and spoke to, I think, a lot of the cynicism and frustration people have who are paying close attention to. I just thought it was an amazing speech.

Tommy? Yeah, I mean, the speech is two parts. The first half was basically her like unloading the oppo clip on Trump and going at him very hard and laying into him. And I obviously enjoyed that. But that's something that a lot of people can do. The second half was riveting. I mean, you can hear it is silent in there. People are wrapped and paying attention. And it really was unlike any speech I've heard this entire election cycle. The way she talked about the stakes for everyone, uh,

in terms of reproductive health. And she figured out a way to bring you emotionally into the room, into the hospital room, watching someone you love die. And it was unbelievably powerful. And I watched, I mean, a bunch of people told me it was great. When I finally watched it, I too was like blown away by just how powerful, how much she connected and how much you could tell she meant it

And my only thought afterwards was like, how do we get this in front of everybody? How do you make sure this is the thing on TikTok that's getting the most push? Because it's long, right? There's extended chunks and that's the power, the sort of like three minute detailed explanation of what life could be like for you and your partner if these laws pass. I know I was, we were trying to clip this for today and it's hard because the whole section on reproductive freedom is eight minutes, I think.

And so it's just, it's hard to, I mean, both of the Obamas are like this, right? Which is there's not, they don't do soundbites and like one line here and there. And you really have to watch the whole thing in full to get it. I thought, I mean, we've been talking forever about like,

men and appeals to men and how this works and she makes this direct appeal to men that i think is maybe one of the most effective appeals to men on almost any issues certainly reproductive rights otherwise like you know i tweeted this and then ben shapiro quote tweets me and he's like michelle obama is always just disappointed in you everything she says she's just so disappointed in you and it's like it's it's a funny reaction because

She went out of her way in that section to empathize with what young men or what men might be thinking. And at one point she was like, I don't expect men to understand all that women go through with our reproductive health. She's like, frankly, women don't always understand what's going on in our own bodies. Right. But she's like, just imagine if you do this. And then she's like she's she's pleading with men. Right. And she's trying to, like, put herself in their shoes. I mean, it's just it was so empathetic. Well, it's so empathetic. Look, you know.

worth saying as well. Yes, there's some political value to saying, oh, Michelle Obama is talking down to men. She isn't. Of course. Of course she's not. It's just lazy. Of course it's lazy. Which Ben has become. Voting for Trump is a very disappointing thing for men to do. And I think part of what that speech was about was about how to reach people that you might feel upset with that they're considering this. She says that one point in the speech, like, your rage may be justified, but if you use your rage to vote for Trump, you're voting against us. And like,

That I think that idea saying that, like, I understand why you're upset. I understand why this may be on the table for you, but it's morally wrong. And it's not just politics. It's not just, oh, we can disagree. A vote for Trump is a vote against the women you claim to love. And if you love them, you should listen to them. Ben Shapiro was so mad about the Barbie movie that he lit Barbie dolls on fire and then released a 43 minute review of it.

So just for context. I just have a real special animus towards people like Ben Shapiro and J.D. Vance who fancy themselves the intellectual Zambonis, right? Who try to make this like intellectual argument about shit when it's like, you know what? You're full of shit. You're full of shit because if you actually listen to it, your criticism of the speech has nothing to do with what was actually in the speech.

If your wife was dying, you would do anything it took to save her life. You lying little shit. Yeah, of course. It's like if you want to pick apart facts, then go try to pick apart facts, but you didn't do that because you can't. So like the Trump campaign, the Harris campaign is also projecting confidence.

though Democratic strategists and reporters are doing their thing by continuing to publicly air an internal debate about which message Harris should close on. The New York Times reports that Future Forward, the big pro-Harris super PAC, warned in their weekly email to Democratic operatives that attacking Trump as a fascist

which two four-star generals who worked for him have now called him isn't particularly persuasive. And that hammering a contrast with Trump on the economy and reproductive rights featuring Harris's own stances works better. We've talked about this a lot. Dan asked Kamala's lead pollster, our friend David Binder, about it on Sunday's bonus pod, which if you haven't listened to yet, you should absolutely listen to. Binder said you have to do both. And here's what Harris campaign manager, Jen O'Malley Dillon, said about it to Jen Psaki on Sunday.

I mean, look, I think we have seen from the beginning that when people who have worked closely closest with Donald Trump speak out, it has real impact on voters and certainly on these voters that we're still trying to reach this small segment of undecided voters. We know anecdotally, we know from our research when someone like

John Kelly stands up and speaks about what it was like to serve under Donald Trump, speaks about how he clearly wants unchecked power. The American people are not comfortable with that. And that is an important contrast that we have. And I think that it's fundamental to

everything that the vice president is talking about how we turn the page from this how we have a leadership in this country that's focused on the issues that the american people care about so we do think it's important it's really important when people that are closest to donald trump speak out about it and we've seen that across all of our data what do you guys think about this debate and particularly the balance that the harris campaign is striking right now so i

first of all, like, I think the, the, we obviously have to do both is the answer we've always been landing on. It's just like, you have to do both. You have to make the positive case. You have to make the contrast case. You have to make sure people understand the threat. One thing that binder said that I thought captures, I think like another facet of this is he said around this question of whether to call Trump a fascist, it's that one word doesn't communicate what the threat is. Yeah. And to me, like that was,

The most important point of this not should we describe the menace and threat that Trump poses versus should we just make a positive argument? It's that when we talk about the threat Trump poses, how do we do that? And like so I asked ACAOC about this, this question of like calling Trump a fascist. And she went right to Donald Trump will take away.

basic rights of women across this country. And so I think translating like fascism is a is a is a identity. It's a it's a it's a it's a summary. And actually, you have to get into the details with people because people have heard for years all kinds of words that are true to describe Donald Trump. The last group of people we're trying to reach are by Nate, by definition, undecided and unmoved by those broad, broad brush characteristics. You have to get into the details.

I'm a little worried about the balance of the moment and not because of like the message testing of ads. It's just because you have to ask yourself, what is breaking through in the closing days? And I do think it is primarily this conversation about Trump and fascism. And I think it's valuable to say the top people that work for him don't trust him to be president again. I think that's alarming new information probably for a lot of people.

But it's gotten mixed in with conversations about like praising Hitler's generals and things that I think just sound partisan and hyperbolic. And a lot of people do you think the Harris campaign has done that, though? I think because we're talking about like this is what I think it's unfair that this it's like there's a lot of straw men run around here, which is like the Harris campaign's leaning in on fascism. No, they're not. Anderson Cooper asked her, do you think he's a fascist?

She said yes, right? Everything else they've done, their ads, everything else has been about what you said, Lovett, which is conveying what the threat means to people. And so, like, I don't know what else they would do at this point. I'm not blaming anyone. I'm talking about the closing conversation that people are hearing. And I think it's overly tilted away from an economic message right now in ways that worry me because every focus group and piece of polling we see is,

shows you that voters primarily care about those issues. And there are also, there's a pretty easy ready-made answer for Trump, which is we saw him for four years. People don't think it was that bad. And so some of the language used to describe him can seem ridiculous to people. So that's where my anxiety comes from. And I agree with you, like,

I'm not criticizing their strategy necessarily, but you get to decide whether you do a press avail or not. You get to take questions or not. You get to decide how you answer things and what you highlight or not. And so it does feel like they are leaning into

This there's a big speech Tuesday at the Ellipse where January 6th, you know started right that is going to lead to a conversation about the 2020 election and the insurrection and Trump's fascistic tendencies and I just I'm a little worried about that emphasis on.

When a lot of these undecided swing voters are like, I don't know but gas was cheaper But this is this is what drives me Sort of crazy because I think that there is a gap between the people who spend their days looking at focus groups and looking at data I am one of them if Kamala Harris sat down with a bunch of voters in a focus groups who are undecided and She had a choice of what to say what she should say to them. Of course is a lie

a lot of this economic messaging, right? Now, not all of them, as Binder said, their research shows, I know that Future Forward has their own research, but the Harris campaign research, pretty good too. Their research shows that there is some segment of people who, when you tell them that John Kelly said that this man was unfit to serve and he's a four-star general, that gives them pause and that they may not vote for it, right? But I would still say, yes, Kamala Harris should deliver a message on economics, absolutely. The problem is the filter and what gets through...

through to voters. And when you're saying the conversation, yes,

Yeah, it gives me anxiety, too. But there's also like there's only so much you can control in a campaign. And I think if Tuesday when she does her closing argument speech, she's going to get a lot of press attention because of where the speech is. Right. I think if she decided that for her closing argument speech, she was going to go to like a grocery store or whatever, you could think something better and just do a big economic speech. It would be a fart in the wind. No one would cover it. Voters wouldn't hear it. And then we'd all be happy that she gave the right message. But no one would actually hear. I mean, that's a look.

straw men, like a fascism speech versus the most boring version of an economic event. Yes, of course. Like you would choose something that was interesting. I think at the end of a campaign, you are far more likely to get coverage and for those things to break through than in any other point. And

And I'm just worried that the focus right now is about a message that might not be as compelling to these swing voters. I think your job as a campaign is to figure out a way for the thing you want to talk about to break through and get covered. Well, all the ads are doing that. I'm not criticizing them. I'm just saying like when I look at

kind of concerns I'm hearing from all these people about slippage and what people are saying they're hearing on the doors about, well, I just want to know about her economic plans and, you know, the need for more information about her. I wonder if a closing focus that is again about Trump is answering the mail with those people.

I also think that she's not going to spend like the setting is the setting. I think the setting gets attention. The setting gets press attention. I think that the entire speech will probably be the economic stuff, the contrast, the whole positive vision. What breaks through? Right. We're talking about kill Tony and his event comments at Madison Square Garden and not what Donald Trump said. That's not under the control of the Harris campaign. You know what I'm saying? Like the setting where they I'm saying the setting is where they chose and that's going to frame up the speech. But you said kill Tony.

They're not... They don't have anything to do with Killtone. I'm just making an example of... I'm just making the point that, like...

something else can be the focus of the covered versus the words. In 2016, I feel like there were a bunch of big mistakes that we had to make because we were running against Trump for the first time. One of those mistakes that I think is absolutely a mistake, but one that's been, I think, laid completely at the feet of the Clinton campaign, what was actually a larger media failing is I think what Tommy is talking about, which is she was trying

traveling the country talking about the economy. We always have it. She did a bus tour towards the end through the Midwest all about the economy. No one fucking heard it. And so, you know, she does do this economic message, but what's breaking through during that time? It's the anti-Trump message and the anti-Trump message was like, I think, uh,

clearly not effective, both because he hadn't been president, that people weren't, it was just, we failed to make that case. It was stories about his character, but him being a shitty guy. I think now we have landed on far more effective ways to beat Donald Trump, to make the argument against Donald Trump. Kamala Harris is very good at making that argument. We still have this problem of how do you break through on the economy when the catnip is the more kind of political, exciting, Trump is an extremist threat. Now, the good news, right, is

replacing Joe Biden with Kamala Harris and then like an incredibly well-run campaign over months has like moved the needle on the economy. Right. That has absolutely happened. It has broken through like they would. Their strategy has worked so far. Like she's like almost even with them on the economy in some polls. And even in New York Times, Sienna, she like gained, I don't know, seven or eight points. And so then I do think like in this last week, how do you do both of those things? I kind of like I think doing a speech on the national ellipse to just

reaffirm that that that view that the Americans have that Donald Trump is chaotic and dangerous and unstable and like you can't trust him like I think is is worth doing I think I

That to me is the right thing to do because of the attention it gets. I think the question then is, okay, we've hit that point. How in the seven days that follow do you drive what Tommy's talking about? Because it's really fucking hard to do. And you've used your closing speech on the ellipse. You've spent it. That's been spent. So it's hard. But like, I come down on thinking it's the right place to reach a ton of people with

closing. It's an all an opportunity costs. None of it is easy, right? But we're talking about the biggest most important decisions in the closing week and what we want to get in front of voters. And it just does concern me a little bit like the Michelle Obama speech last

specifically about reproductive care and access to that care and going in great detail about the horrors that could come from Trump getting four more years was unbelievably powerful. If that speech was sort of framed as Trump as dictator, and that was sort of like the prism through which that information got, it just changes the tenor and the way it lands. And I think

the likelihood that people get the information you want them to hear. Yeah. Well, I think in her speech, she did a lot of Trump as the threat that Trump poses. She did. She talked about shooting unarmed protesters, right? Like, look, I think...

If you're out there, which no one has done, but if you're out there talking about Trump is a fascist, Trump is a dictator, blah, blah, blah. Like that is bad. That is very, very bad. But there are things that Trump could do or that he wants to do that we know from polling is very effective with the voters that we're talking about. Right. People don't want him to shoot unarmed protesters. That's not popular. They don't want him to pardon the January 6th protesters. They fucking hate the 2020 steal the...

This is why the Trump campaign has had an entire strategy to put him on these podcasts, because they know that if people think that Trump is a threat, that they lose. The New York Times today just said that the Trump campaign is actually also worried that some of this Hitler stuff, the John Kelly stuff is going to cost them the election. Right. So, like, I do. I just think that it is.

I guess I'm not trying to defend the campaign or anything. I'm just trying to put myself in the campaign and events happen. And then it's like, what do you do to respond to an event that happens? Like Madison Square Garden happens. And if she gets off the tarmac and a reporter says, what do you think about Madison Square Garden? I just I think it it.

It makes me laugh to think of her saying, well, I'm just focused on costs. Well, yes, the dumbest possible answer is not what she's going to say. But there's like J.D. Vance pretended he didn't hear the joke. So he didn't comment on the joke. There's a million and one ways to avoid making news on the thing you don't want to avoid on. I'm not saying that's the right thing to do here. I'm just saying it is a strategic choice. And like, do you think there would be a better a better answer off the plane? Like, what do you think that I don't remember what she said now.

Just the divisiveness thing that you were saying. Possibly. I don't know. I have not thought about it until you just asked me. But like you said, running around saying fascism is not the way to go. I agree. I don't think they've been doing that. But very recently, she started using the word fascist. Just when Anderson Cooper. No, the first time. Oh, and then Charlemagne said it. Right. It's been a couple of times. She agreed. She didn't use it on her own. The point I'm making is this is what you're responding to events. And I think when you, I think there's certain things where like he proposes a very serious threat.

And if she could make the choice to say, no, he's not a fascist. But like, I don't think that's a good choice either. Yeah. You'd be like, it's a word I haven't used, etc. I'm saying like, all we're getting at here is like...

These are purposeful decisions that end up having an impact on what is covered and what the closing message is and what people hear. Yeah. I'm just, yeah, I know. I know for sure. I'm just saying you're heated on this one. No, because I am, because I'm, I'm, I'm heated on it. I'm not, I mean, I'm not mad. I'm just saying like, I have, I have struggled with this so much because I've seen all the fucking data. Like I don't, all of our friends in the democratic super PACs and everyone else who's saying like, this is bad. We got to do more in the economy. I get them. I've been there. I've seen the fucking data, but like,

when this happens on a campaign, a campaign's also about like the exigent events that you are responding to. And if you respond in a way that seems like, J.D. Vance seemed like bullshit when he said he hadn't heard the joke. If she had said she hadn't heard the joke, it would have been fucking bullshit, right? And it's clearly something that worries the Trump campaign, which is why they walked it back. So of course she should go in on that. I'm not saying she shouldn't have said that. I'm just saying like,

it's not hard to not make news on things you don't want to. It just really is. And all I'm saying is I think the critique from the super PACs that the somehow the Harris walls campaign is not, is this the strategy is leaving, leaning too heavy on the Trump threat is just wrong. I think it's just wrong criticism. And then I think they need to close the deal on the economy for sure. But I'm, I guess I just, I'm with binder, which is like, you really just have to figure out a way to do both. Yeah. And also just like the,

Kamala Harris is running an incredibly impressive campaign in a media environment that sucks and makes Trump possible. And like that is the that is the thing. And like in the closing. It's so hard. It's so much harder than any other campaign to break through. And so and so in that context, like how do you break through in the economy? What's the balance?

like where I kind of land is I have the same worry, Tommy. I like, how do you reach these people? Like, how do you get to this like final group of people and make sure they understand the economic states at the same time? Like he's out there calling people the enemy of the people. He's out there saying these fascistic things. Tucker Carlson, his like fucking mind guru is out there like kind of like

addled in claiming that they won't accept the election results. He's planning to not accept these election results. You can go to the ellipse. You can tell the truth and somewhere and try to use that to at least get to some coverage of the economic stakes, too. I don't know what else. I think eight out of 10 voters on the doors that you ask if they're going to be like, well, I don't know what she's going to do for me. And then you tell that voter that her plans and that might be your best shot at getting them vote. I totally agree. The doors might be the best shot. But like

again, it's just, you know, the campaigns make a lot of choices and Donald Trump did this goofy ass thing where he worked at McDonald's kind of for an hour. And it was like the thing that more people saw that week when it comes to political news than anything else. It was a creative, uh,

borderline bizarre choice, but it was really, really, really effective. And like, I'm not criticizing the Harris campaign. I'm just saying like your job in the campaign is to find those things that do break through. And that was a really good example. Yeah. Okay. Well, we'll leave it there. When we come back from the break, you're going to hear Alyssa's interview with Nancy Pelosi about pulling off a win next week. But before we do that, this is the part of the show where we beg you to do the most effective thing you can do to beat Donald Trump and win the selection.

We need you to think of three people in swing states, Arizona, Nevada, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Georgia, and call or text them now to confirm their voting plans. That would be nice. Or to just try to persuade them if they are thinking about not voting or thinking about voting for Donald Trump. And then you can have whatever conversation you want with them. You can say, can I offer you a fascist threat? And if they say, I don't care about that, you can say, can I offer you a health care plan? Or a McRiddle. Can I offer you a tariff?

Can I offer you productive rights? Have you heard about what John Kelly said? Have you heard what this hack comedian from Texas said? You can go through a whole list. However long you got on the phone, it's not a 30 second ad. No. That's the beauty of a real conversation and it's with someone you know, so you can really have an interesting conversation. Um,

If you don't have swing state contacts, that's pretty sad. But then ask your contacts if they have swing state contacts. And once you've identified some swing state folks who may need some convincing, use Vote Save America's last call tool for easy scripts at votesaveamerica.com slash vote.

Also, if you've been scrolling Instagram and feeling some shame and envy about all those cool photos of your friends canvassing to save democracy, it's not too late to make a plan to join them. Just go to votesaveamerica.com and click on I want to volunteer. This message has been paid for by Vote Save America. This ad has not been authorized by any candidate or candidates committee. When we come back, Speaker Pelosi. Nobody does selling better than Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet.

The Shop Pay feature even boosts conversions up to 50%. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout top brands like all birds use. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash podcast free, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash podcast free to upgrade your selling today.

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Today, I am honored to be able to sit down with Speaker Nancy Pelosi representing California's 11th district for the last 37 years. Inductee to the National Women's Hall of Fame in Seneca Falls, recipient of the nation's highest civilian honor, the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Also, New York Times bestselling author of The Art of Power, which I cannot recommend enough.

Madam Speaker, by my math, this is your eighth presidential election since coming to Congress. We are nearing election day. What is keeping you up at night? Well, I'm just worried. How can I say this? I'm not up at night. I'm very happy about it. Oh, good. See, I'm a former chair of the California Democratic Party. And so my whole thrust in politics is own the ground. Right. So it's wonderful to have the...

We have to have the mobilization on the ground. We have to have the message, which is unifying and not menacing, but is bold and progressive, but not menacing. And we have to have the money to get the job done.

The money's coming in. The message is in the hands of the candidate. The mobilization is what matters now. And I'm traveling all over for some House races as well as presidential. And I feel very good about the fact that everybody knows.

It's in their hands. You know, people say, have my fingers crossed. I said, uncross them and make calls. Make calls. Or text. Send a postcard. Or knock on doors or go walk precincts. But no fingers crossed. Okay, good. All right. Well, then I'm feeling good. So last week, Donald Trump referred to you again as the enemy within. He also said that January 6th was a beautiful thing and that it was all about love and peace.

Your disdain and dislike for the former president is pretty well documented at this point. But did these comments scare you any more than things he's previously said? Well, we've already borne the brunt of his hatred, as you probably are aware. There's something that this person is not on the level. You understand that he is anytime he says something, he's projecting his own self. He is the enemy within himself.

And that's why this election is so important. But when he says me and talks about me or Adam Schiff or that, he's really talking about the American people. And I think that Vice President Harris has been very good about making that clear. When he's talking about the enemy within, he's talking about the American people. I myself think we're going to win this election because of the goodness of the American people.

not because of the enemy within. I think the American people, when it comes right down to it,

Well, understand that you cannot elect a person of such vulgarity, such misrepresentation, such insulting the intelligence of the American people. It was not a day of love. It was a tragedy for our nation. People ended up dying from it, many injured from it, and that just goes to show. But I think that there's a judgment out there that may not be very loud, but it's very strong.

So you were just in Florida for a women's get out the vote breakfast where you discussed the state's Amendment 4, which would codify abortion rights. How important has reproductive rights been as an issue for Democrats this cycle, both at the top of the ticket and down ballot?

vitally important. Reproductive rates, very important. I just recall to mind that two years ago, 22, the off year, people said we were going to lose 30 or 40 seats. And I said, they just don't know what they're talking about. They make

collect high salaries, but they ain't on the ground and they don't know what's happening. Because we knew that that issue was very important. And they said, she, meaning me, I owed an apology to the Democrats for putting that in the forefront. Didn't I know it was in the rearview mirror and people didn't care that much.

But we know how those members voted, and we know how our candidates were opposing that. They opposed putting Roe v. Wade into law, and they even opposed...

women having a right to contraception. And they opposed anything to do with climate crisis, gun violence prevention, all of that. But the women's issue, the reproductive health issue is primary. And as you know, we lost five seats in New York. I know. And that's for a lot of different reasons. But

hopefully we win them back this time. But I have no doubt that we will win the House of Representatives. Hakeem Jeffries will be the speaker. He must be the speaker. He must be the speaker for all the issues we care about, but also on January 6th to protect our democracy.

So it's October. October surprises throughout the years are of great lore. And in 2008, I was on the Obama campaign. Many consider the financial crisis and the record rise in unemployment as the October surprise of that election. But in 2008, weeks before the presidential election, Congress came together to keep the economy from going over a cliff. Do you think Congress could come together today to solve a problem that catastrophic?

We would have to. You remember that President Bush was president at the time when this happened, and it was the generosity and the

Really responsible attitude of the Democrats that saved the day. Let's be sure to point that out because Republicans never lived up to their commitment to have 100 votes to pass this. I do believe it was the reason we lost the House in 2010 because we had to save the day.

And people thought we were bailing out Wall Street, we're bailing out the economy. And we always agreed that whatever we did would be bipartisan, but they didn't do their share. So we had to weigh in more heavily. But nonetheless, as you indicate, it was bipartisan. We got the job done. I don't know that anything like that could happen unilaterally.

under Trump because he doesn't have it. The only thing he did when he was president of the United States with a Republican majority was to give a tax break, to have a tax bill, a tax bill that gave 83% of the benefits to the top 1%, added $2 trillion to the national debt

to give tax breaks to the richest and biggest corporate America and individuals as well. And he says that's what his agenda is to renew that tax cut. But at this point, it will be more like $5 trillion to the national debt. So it's hard to imagine anything. We tried to do infrastructure with him. He wouldn't do it. Let me just say this. Why am I even talking about him being president?

Kamala Harris will be president of the United States. Yes, ma'am. And because of the rules of the Senate with the 60 votes and the rest, we would have to have bipartisanship to get something big done. Let us always think that...

That that sense of responsibility will enable the Republicans to come on board. If we make our compromise, they have to make theirs. But that's our responsibility. We have a responsibility to strive for bipartisanship, to be accountable to the public about that, and have transparency so the public knows. Right.

In 2007, you were elected first woman Speaker of the House. You have been the most powerful woman in politics since, and you made the decision to step down from leadership. It takes women so long to break the glass ceiling. Why did you make the choice? What did you hope for, and were you right? Well, yes, I was right, of course, but let me just—

say that it's not a glass ceiling in the Congress. It's a marble ceiling. It's a much tougher thing, obstacle to break

No, I thought it was right. I was excited about it. I don't know. People ask me, was it right? Yes, I was full of excitement about it. The only thing I regretted was that it wasn't going to be in the majority. See, I thought we could win it, even though they said 30, 40 seats was five seats. But I stayed in order to make sure that what's-his-name doesn't set foot in the White House again and to make sure that Hakeem Jeffries has that gavel.

But I've been there 20 years. I mean, 20 years, either eight as speaker, 12 as leader. Right. And it's a major responsibility. And, you know, legislatively, politically, fundraising-wise. Yes. I was proud of what we had done, but I was glad others were willing to carry the load.

So you were just telling me you've been in Boston today already campaigning. You're here in New York City campaigning. You are then heading out and crossing the country campaigning for Democrats. So one of my favorite memories was hearing Barbara Mikulski, who served as U.S. senator for 30 years before retiring. I saw her speak once about her first run in Congress in 1976. And I was like, oh, my God.

And she talked about how she raised money through bake sales for Barb. So how has campaigning changed over the years? With the advent of social media, do you think it's become more inclusive?

Oh, absolutely. Well, separate in part from the advent of social media, there was a decision made. When I went to Congress in 37 years ago, a few years after Barbara went to the Senate, and we're all so proud of her. Right.

There were 435 members of Congress, that is the number. There were 23 women, 12 Democrats, 11 Republicans. That was absolutely unacceptable. So we made a decision to recruit, to train, to fund, to accept self-recruitment and that. And then this Congress, I'm very proud that

We have 94 women. Right. And we're going to get more in this next election. So because it was a decision and social media is a double edged sword. Some of it's positive, some of it is not. But all of it is about women voting.

And of course, we want minority, even with more diversity. Our caucus, our House Democratic Caucus, I'm proud to say, is 70% women, people of color, LGBTQ. It's a fabulous statement about a political party in a Congress, a parliament, or whatever.

And we still want more. But it was a decision. It wasn't just happened because of social media. Right. And social media can be a danger too because when I'm trying to encourage women to run or talk to those who have decided they're going to run, they're always concerned about

about the negative aspects of it. I could never subject my family to what you've been through. I'm not even talking about the physical violence of Donald Trump's friends. I'm talking about the just you become a target. That's just the way it is. And they know that women, here's the way I see it,

They know that women have a reputation for being more ethical. It's just the way it is. So what do they do to our women candidates? They attack their ethical standing by saying things, make them up, they're not even true. And if your child hears that, that their classmate heard that on TV and comes home crying, is this worth it? So we have to get rid of that

Politics of personal destruction, which really became a factor during the 90s. When Newt Gingrich became Speaker, he really did that. He went after the Clintons, as you know, Hillary Clinton so much. And we just have to take it down to we're a democracy. We have differences of opinion. Let's express those differences. Let people judge what it means to them without trying to

say things that really was, I have no doubt that the things they said about me when I was speaker and the rest and became speaker and all that on the Republican side contributed to the assault on my husband. So I remember at Senator Harry Reid's funeral, President Obama talked about how Reid was the epitome of progress over perfection.

And I wanted to know if you had any words for folks who are sitting on the sidelines right now, who are still undecided about whether to vote for Kamala Harris on November 5th, specifically for folks who think she's not progressive enough. Oh, excuse me. Well, that was a beautiful word that the president said about Harry was wonderful and he was masterful. And I miss him every day. The president,

I have two words to say to people who say she's not progressive enough. Donald Trump, a tragedy for our country if he were ever to be elected. Everything that we care about or have done would be obliterated by him.

Somebody said to me the other day, what's the difference between the Democrats and Republicans and how you treat poor children? I said, we do, and they don't. That's just the way it is. So, you know, with all due respect to that, and I'm a progressive from San Francisco, and what the thing is, is that we have to win in the whole country. And when I was invited by the governor of Michigan to be there for events, I said then, what works in Michigan...

Works in San Francisco. Working class message. What works in San Francisco may not work in Michigan. Right. Let's win, baby. Okay? So, the...

if they have ideas that they want to develop at the local level and have them become something that have national acceptance, that's what this is about. That's what I did. I mean, I came at it very from the left end of San Francisco, but I know you have to govern from the center. So I just say to them, everything that we did,

Joe Biden was a fabulous president, consequential. Our agenda was beautiful from all the bills, the rescue package with the child tax credit, the infrastructure bill with all the jobs, the PACT Act for our veterans, the CHIPS Act for our economy and for involving women in ownership as well as jobs, and to save the planet, the biggest commitment ever.

of any country ever, $370 billion to save the planet, that's very progressive. And it would be all

Negated. Lowering the cost of prescription drugs, lowering the cost of insulin. That's not what they're there for. They're taking us to court on some of those things. And Trump has sat down with, oh, I said his name. I know, you don't like to do that. I don't like to do it, slip down. Sat down with the fossil fuel industry and said, give me a billion dollars and I'll get rid of all this other stuff.

So I just have two words for them, Donald Trump. Bless your hearts for your sincerity and the rest. As I say that as a San Francisco liberal, it's very close to my constituents. And I had a lot of those signs in my basement for 40 years. But right now, we want to win the White House. And if they think that giving a vote to a third party or something like that is...

Courageous. No, it's dangerous. It is dangerous. So I did want to ask, you mentioned your husband, Paul. And shortly after he was brutally attacked, Trump took to Twitter and made a joke about it. And minutes after Trump was grazed by a bullet in Butler, Pennsylvania, you released a statement on Twitter that read in part,

As one whose family has been the victim of political violence, I know firsthand that political violence of any kind has no place in our society. Thank God that former President Trump is safe. Having walked in his shoes, how depraved does it seem that he couldn't wish you and your husband well?

I think it's indicative of who he is. That's why I come back to the goodness of the American people. This is a person who has no respect for other people. He's all about himself and his rich friends at the expense of other people. He exploits fears and concerns that people have about how they will –

survive economically in a time of globalization, a time of innovation. He sells them a bill of goods. And again, there's social, cultural issues like guns and gays, as they call it, 3Gs, guns, gays, and

God, can you believe it? As a mother of five and six years and seven days, I have something to say about that. But this is not a person that you would even let in your house, much less into the White House of the United States. He is vulgar, grotesque. He is unpatriotic.

We know that he is demonstrating characteristics that can be considered fascist and how people respond to him because he, again, he sells a good bill of goods. But if his lips are moving, he ain't telling the truth. You came to Congress in 1987. You came to Congress to fight for children and HIV AIDS. What do you consider the biggest fight still ahead?

You mentioned the social media earlier. It's not about what the fight is. It's about how the fight is conducted. President Lincoln, let the record show I'm quoting a Republican president. President Lincoln said public sentiment is everything. With it, you can accomplish almost anything. Without it, practically nothing. But for public sentiment to prevail, people have to know. And that is what

I think the challenge has been in this administration, people, we did great things, but the bully pulpit of the White House did not showcase them so that the president's numbers were like a 37%. So the challenge is,

Not the issue. The challenge is the presentation. Now, on the issue, we build consensus. We reach across the aisle to try to have bipartisan support for so many things. But the public really has to be aware of that. Right.

because some of it takes a great deal of courage for our members, not me, because I represent beautiful San Francisco, but it takes a deal of courage for them to vote for in their districts, especially since the other side will try to misrepresent what it is. So the point is, as I always say, I can bake the pie or I can sell the pie, but I can't do them both at once. So there has to be

a recognition. As we did the Affordable Care Act, we just went out there and mobilized and mobilized and mobilized. And that's the way we passed it, and that's how we saved it, because of the engagement of the public. So I would say as we go forward, there's a care agenda that has to happen in our country. We are...

I think the only developed nation that does not have affordable child care. The child tax credit is so important. Home health care for our seniors. Family and medical leave. So if you want to talk about how we can make a big difference in our economy, it's the fullest empowerment of women today.

And caregivers. They may be men, too, in the workplace. And we have to make sure that the public is aware of it so it is not misrepresented to them by the other side that does not believe that.

In governance. Right. They don't believe in science, so don't do anything about climate. Right. Because you've invented the climate crisis, right? Weather service, that's why they want to privatize it. The education, abolish the Department of Education. And the EPA. EPA. What is this? Okay, so let's go right to your kitchen table. Let's go right to your kitchen table. You have to make ends meet.

The cost of child care is huge. Cost of housing is huge. The cost of care for your older parent or sibling, in addition to children, is huge.

It's hard. It's expensive, but it's also hard to get the kind of safe care that you need. We really have to change that. We had it in the Build Back Better bill. We couldn't get it completely. We got most of it, but we didn't get what I just named. Paid family and medical leave. Affordable child care. Child

Child tax credit. We had $400 billion in the bill for home health care for senior siblings in addition to children. So I think the empowerment of women, when women succeed, America succeeds.

And we want women, when they're in the workplace, to be fully present. They always worry about families. We all do. But if you have the assurance that the care is safe and good and it is affordable to you, I think that women will make bigger strides even in the workplace, in our economy, in our national security, in our politics, in our government, in academia, in every way. So speaking of women...

You ran for Congress in your late 40s. Toni Morrison wrote The Bluest Eye in her late 40s. Julia Child was 49 when she published Mastering the Art of French Cooking. What should women know about the second half of life? What changes as we age? Well, for me, my children grew up. It was about them. Once they were in school all day and, you know, five children in six years and seven days. That was...

quite an occupying force. I had never intended to run for office. I wasn't even interested in it. In fact, I avoided it. I mean, I didn't even avoid it. I didn't even think of it. And then when the opportunity came along and then I ran and they said, you'll love it because you love the issues. That's why you're involved in politics. They were right. I loved it. And then when I was there,

Then they said, now you have to run for leadership after a few years. And I said, no, I like the issue. I love what I'm doing. One thing and another. But again, we were losing. We lost 94, 96, 98. And I said, okay, I'll take some responsibility in the 2000s. And then we won. I became speaker. So when I go for housewife position,

House member, House speaker, my motivation was for the children. I always tell people, know your why. Know why you are doing this, because you're going to get the slings and arrows and everything else. And it's all worth it if you know why you're there. And mine was the children writ large. But specifically when I went there, it was about the AIDS crisis as well. So...

I have to ask you, what's your secret to being able to spend all day in sky-high heels that would take down the average 35-year-old?

The dark, I think dark chocolate, very dark chocolate. What is your favorite dark chocolate? Oh, well, it just depends if it's ice cream or if it's candy or whatever it is. I said when I left the hotel in Boston this morning, I had chocolate ice cream in the refrigerator. And I said, you know, I said, I just drank the chocolate ice cream because it didn't freeze in the refrigerator.

No, I think some of it is being Italian-American. I just have this not enough hours in the day to get all the things done that I want. I think part of it is raising five children. You're always working. You don't even have time to wash your face. You know, it's constant. And then you multitask. You get it done. So it is, I don't know, I largely attribute it to chocolate.

It's very dark. Is a dessert a dessert if it's not chocolate? No, I mean, people give you like fruit or something. I think that's a nice vegetable or fruit, but it's not dessert. That's not Ms. Lidar's. And then so sometimes that happens. People put like, oh, I just made this thing. I say, that's nice. I was like, I'll consider it like a piece of bread or I'll consider it if it's a pastry or I'll consider it a...

Vegetable, if it's fruit, you know, fresh something. No, it's chocolate. And people know it. I mean, it saves me a lot because... Do you know how I know it? No. Because when we first came to the White House, when Rahm Emanuel was chief of staff, he would call me and he'd say, honey, which is not sexist, everyone listening, because he called David Axelrod honey too. He'd say, honey...

Nancy's coming down. And I'm only calling you Nancy because that's what he said. He said, where are the best chocolate croissants? And so even though I was an assistant to the president, I was in charge of the chocolate croissants that we got for you because he said she will be happy if we have chocolate.

I remember going to my first lunch with President Obama in that little lunch place. And he said, first we're going to start. And he had dark chocolate candy with sea salt sprinkled on top. That's the first time I had that. It was delicious. Yeah.

Yeah, but I'm a connoisseur. And I'm not, you know, I'm not indiscriminate. Right. It's not just any chocolate. And I don't like it adulterated. Somebody will say, oh, this is great. It's got hazelnut in it. I say, that's good. You enjoy it. You enjoy your chocolate. So, but if I want a chocolate bar, what should I put in my bag? Oh, no. Let me just say this. I like very dark chocolate. Okay. But...

A good Hershey's with almonds never offended anybody. Okay. Well, Madam Speaker, thank you so much for talking to me today. And listeners, don't forget to head over to votesaveamerica.com slash 2024 and make sure you're all set for Election Day. And make sure they do their calls. Do your calls, your postcards, drive people to the polls, be a poll worker. Do all of it. It all is in their hands. Madam Speaker, thank you. The fate of the nation. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right. Before we go, um,

One of the best memes of the Kamala Harris era. This is going now after Pelosi? She's going to be really happy. Do you think she'll be as happy or happier than Brian Schatz? Better than the lead-in. The meme got an important update on Sunday, courtesy of Rudy Giuliani, whose stirring speech we did not play a clip from yet. And we felt a journalistic responsibility to share the whole new meme with you that we've updated. Do not come.

Do not come. I'm going to come. There's no place in America the president shouldn't be able to come. I mean, does Rudy have a point? No, it doesn't. We learned that clearly in the Clinton impeachment. No, there are places where the president shouldn't go. Absolutely. Or come. What is...

His speech was fucking nuts. He's lost it, man. I mean, he had to give up his apartment to the election workers from Georgia, which is fucking awesome. He had to give the election workers a Mercedes that once belonged to Lauren Bacall.

Yes. Yes. If this was tested, that clip, do you think that would move some voters off the fence? I think we could get people going with that thing. I don't think it'll help Rudy's mayor campaign. I think he's going to take one more run out after Adam. By the way, just going to just once again throw out my terrible prediction that if Donald Trump wins Eric Adams, Department of Homeland Security. Oh.

Oh, yeah. I thought you were going to say pardon. I'm like, obviously the pardon. Yeah, the pardon's happening. Rudy hasn't been sober since the Bush administration. All right. That's our show for today. Thanks to Speaker Pelosi and to Alyssa for that great conversation. Thank you, Speaker Pelosi. So great to have you. We love our guests. We love our guests. Love it. And our buddy Tim Miller of The Bulwark will be back on Wednesday with a new show. Bye, everybody.

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