Kamala Harris Starts Hot (feat. Pete Buttigieg)
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Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Tommy Vitor. I'm Ali Velshi. On today's show, Vice President Kamala Harris hits the campaign trail while J.D. Vance might not be so ready for primetime. Then we're joined by Transportation Secretary and reported VP contender Pete Buttigieg to talk about the campaign, J.D. Vance, and how Harris should respond to Republican attacks that we all know are coming. And then Benjamin Netanyahu gives a speech to Congress

that has my blood absolutely boiling. But first, I should just say thank you, Ali Velshi. You're a truly excellent journalist. Everyone should catch everything you're doing on MSNBC. And also, you filled in for me on Pod Save the World when I was on paternity leave, and you kind of did a better job than I do. So I'm wondering, you know, in hindsight, was that a polite thing to do to a sleep deprived father?

I'll tell you, congratulations. And it was a pleasure. I don't get nervous much for appearances of being on air or being on podcasts, given how much I do. I've been nervous two times in probably the last 15 years. The first one was going on Oprah. And the second one was filling in for you. Because everybody talked about it. Everybody listens to this. And everybody was like, I get all my information. I get all my analysis from Podsafe. So I was actually a tad nervous about...

But I'm glad you thought it worked well. I'm glad to be back with you. It was truly great. And Oprah, what a flex. Damn. Right? Good for you. You know, my only crazy Oprah story is in 2004, I was on Obama's then Senate campaign. And...

Obama did in Obama, Barack Obama and Michelle Obama did their first interview with Oprah Winfrey and Gail and my boss at the time, I guess, like didn't want to staff something on a Saturday morning at like 10 a.m. So it was the Obama's

Me, Oprah, Gail, and just kind of like sitting in a room. I'm like, how did I get here? That's something. Yeah. I know the feeling. I felt the same way when I was in the same room as Gail and Oprah. Yeah, they're quite talented. Okay. Let's talk about where we are in the campaign compared to where we were a week ago.

Kamala Harris appears to have clinched a majority of delegates and is all but officially leading the ticket. The vibes are immaculate. Voter registrations are surging. Politico reported this morning that Vote.org saw its biggest day of the cycle so far with 38,500 new registrations, most of them people under 34 years old. Everywhere you look online, people are sharing and remixing Kamala content and memes. And while money isn't everything...

It's something. It's a lot. And the Harris campaign and allied groups have raised more than $250 million since Sunday. And most importantly, out on the campaign trail, Kamala Harris is kicking ass as a messenger. Here she is yesterday at a rally in Milwaukee. Before I was elected United States Senator, I was elected Attorney General of the state of California, and I was a courtroom prosecutor before then. And in those roles, I took on perpetrators of all kinds.

predators who abused women, fraudsters who ripped off consumers, cheaters who broke the rules for their own gain. So hear me when I say

I know Donald Trump's type. This campaign is also about two different visions. One where we are focused on the future. The other focused on the past. We believe in a future where every person has the opportunity not just to get by, but to get ahead. Building up the middle class will be a defining goal of my presidency.

So, like a little goosebumps here. So, Ali, we knew that if President Biden stepped down, the first few days of this rollout would be critical for resetting the narrative. How do you think it's going so far? I am blown away by how it's going. I have to tell you, because I, as a journalist, don't often think these things will go as well as the faithful do. I thought it'd be a little rockier than this. I thought there would be a little bit more opposition. I think it's

It's kind of amazing how she sort of stepped into this unity issue. The idea that I think Democrats were so

hobbled by the fact that the Biden question had become disuniting. Wherever you were on the spectrum of whether Biden should stay or Biden should go, it felt hopeless for Democrats. And she has walked into this thing and she has said, all right, we're putting that conversation aside. We're done with that conversation. Now we're deciding what the message is to the American voter who was either unenthusiastic, was feeling overwhelmed. I'm amazed.

As you know very well, it's very early days on one hand. On the other hand,

We're talking about almost 100 days to the election. It's really about 65 days before the first ballots are cast. And people don't know Kamala Harris as well as they think they do. In other words, she didn't get that far in her attempt to be the presidential candidate the last time around. So it is her reintroduction to America. And she's got an opportunity here that I wouldn't have even guessed on Sunday that she had. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, look, the cliche that you never have a second chance to make a first impression is a real thing. And it's a hell of a first impression. I'm hearing from people in my life who are not political at all about all the Kamala memes and stuff they're seeing on TikTok. And they're

not only interested but inspired by it. So I think the enthusiasm is real. If we're being honest, part of it is a sense of relief that Joe Biden is no longer the candidate. I'm not trying to be mean to him, but there is this kind of exhale that we're no longer having a conversation about his age anymore.

But in addition to that, there is genuine excitement for Kamala Harris. And it's manifesting online in ways that I haven't seen since 2008. And also on the ground, I mean, I talked to my buddy, Ben Wickler, who runs the Wisconsin Democratic Party. He says that, you know, younger staffers at WISDEMs are telling him that they're hearing from friends who have never voted before, but now they're going to because they feel like

This moment is historic. That was the word he used. The Milwaukee event that Harris did fit 3,500 people on very short notice and could have been bigger. They had lines down the block. The state party raised $350,000 since Sunday. And the Harris campaign says that they've had 100,000 volunteer signups since Sunday. So that's real enthusiasm. And you know, Ben, it might have been a few days after Ben Wickler had said that they were out knocking on doors and

everybody thought the debate performance was bad. Virtually none of those Democrats who thought so said, and so I'm going to vote for Donald Trump. What this has done is caused that discussion to go by the wayside because for people in Wisconsin and Michigan, this is going to be very, very important because there were Democrats who went out and said, I'm dissatisfied with Joe Biden. Some of them were further dissatisfied by the debate performance. Now they've got a reason to come back. And it

It didn't need to be a massive reason, but it's a reason. And I think Kamala Harris has a remarkable opportunity here, not just for the first impression, but to shape what the discourse is going to be for the next 65 days and then 105 days or whatever it is until the election. Yeah. So given what you're watching and reading and the strategists you talk to, do you feel like the underlying dynamics of the race are different or the same? Do you think we're going to be talking about different states being in play? Possibly.

But we were going to talk about different states being in play anyway, because there are Democratic states, which didn't go Democratic in prior elections, that were going to be at risk

with the dynamic that we have. So the number of states that have expanded into the swing-ish category was greater than most people think. Upward of 10 states could be 13 states. So number one, if you can just shrink the swingy states back down to six or seven, you're at least in the game. Number two, I thought that clip you played of Kamala Harris was kind of amazing. It was Ronald Reagan-esque, right? She has decided...

And this is going to be a bit of a heavy lift for Democrats, particularly for or even for people like me who say that this is an existential election about democracy.

For the moment, she's embracing a slightly different message, that there's a bright future for America. She's going to lean onto the Biden economic track record, but generally talk about the future. And that contrasts with Donald Trump's, generally speaking, bleak, restrictive, isolationist future. I think that might be a more creative thing. People like me are still going to go on and warn people that if you don't vote in this election, your democracy could be at risk.

She may go out with a different message and it might be refreshing and it might be enticing to voters who are going to sit on their hands. I have to say, I think you hit on, honestly, the most important thing, which is my frustration with the Biden campaign's message was that it was very much about

These are my accomplishments allowed me to list them to you. And there was not enough forward looking. Here's what I'll do in the future vision. Now, that's a hard contrast to paint when you're an 81 year old. I think with Kamala Harris, she looks different. She sounds different. She's far younger than Donald Trump. And so it just the message fits. But yeah, that was another moment where I was like, oh, this is just wonderful to hear.

It also, look, we've heard it. You heard it from your listeners. I've heard it from my viewers. People are exhausted. They are diminished. They feel overwhelmed. And the idea that you can be useful, that you can be part of a movement, that you can be part of something that feels like the future, not a negative future where we close off our borders and we call immigrants vermin and we obsess about transgender kids and we worry about how many ways we can restrict abortion. And

An actual future that talks about economic growth, the growth of our country, leadership of the world, the saving of democracy, the reinstituting of human rights norms around the world and being a leader at that.

That's exciting. That makes me feel like I want to get out and do something as opposed to just the endless onslaught of my freedoms. Yeah, it's not a lesser of two evils conversation at all. I agree with you fundamentally. I think the campaign, General Malley Dillon had a memo out today. The blue wall states are still key, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, but they're going to be back to trying to expand the race into North Carolina, Georgia, Arizona, Nevada, states that frankly were just

gone, according to the polling I saw. And I also think, you know, Harris in some of the polling about her versus Biden shows she gives us the chance to win back younger voters, Black and Latino voters. She also clearly excites the base. And I think she has proven to be the most effective messenger we have on abortion rights and abortion access. And she can drive that hard.

And that's the winningest thing that Democrats have at the moment. Even if the Democrats could overcome the weird thing about inflation and the economy, whereas the, you know, the economy is doing one thing and people seem to express that it's doing another, they feel another, that's a real piece of work for the campaign. And I hope that that works better for Kamala Harris than it has for Joe Biden. Um,

But this abortion issue still drives more voters out there and it will drive more voters to the polls in the end. So so Democrats, I look, you know that there are people who argue that Democrats should be leaning into that and guns. Kamala Harris is actually a leader on both of those areas or the things that could cause people who weren't going to vote to go out and vote.

Those are two of the major issues. Obviously, Israel and Gaza is another one, and we're yet to see how that unfolds. But I'm I'm actually more hopeful that she's able to motivate some of the voters who weren't going to show up for Joe Biden on that issue. Yeah, I want to ask you about what space you may or may not have on Gaza in a second. But the other interesting dynamic I'm noticing is.

Kamala Harris's experience as a prosecutor and as attorney general of California was sort of seen as a liability for her in the 2020 primary because the country was in the midst of this discussion about police brutality after the murder of George Floyd. Now her law enforcement experience is a feature front and center of Harris's stump speech. Do you think this, you know, the 2020 like Kamala is a cop narrative that you saw online is now mostly a political asset?

I do, actually. Look, there's a narrow space, and it is about police brutality and police violence, and that has not been solved, in which being a prosecutor who's tough on crime works against you. Similar thing occurred with Josh Shapiro in Pennsylvania, also a prosecutor, also known to be tough on crime. Generally speaking, if you separate crime

police brutality and unfairness in the justice system with what you could describe as law and order, meaning an orderly society, you can win on that front. And I think Kamala Harris has that chance now to set herself out, and as she did in that clip that you played, to say,

I know what people like this are. Donald Trump's a lawbreaker. Donald Trump's a cheat. Donald Trump is a fraudster. Donald Trump is dishonest. To be able to go down that road, which people were really hoping Biden 2024 could do like Biden 2020 could do or 2019 could do.

Biden wasn't able to do that this time around as effectively because he was playing defense the whole time. Kamala Harris now gets to play offense. And on that front, a prosecutor, the worst kind of person for Donald Trump, not just a prosecutor, a woman who's a prosecutor, a

a non-white woman who's a prosecutor, that's going to get under his skin. And when he, when you get under his skin or JD Vance's skin, as you know, because they're both awful thin skin, um, they react in ways that look pretty ugly. Yeah, they sure do. Um, I saw the Trump campaign, uh,

try to say that they're going to target ads towards younger voters of color that highlights Kamala's record as a prosecutor, and I guess in an effort to depress the vote. That seems way too cynical for me. And I think it's also a misread of the actual data on what voters think. For example, the Griot did a poll in 2022 where they asked black voters about whether spending on policing should increase.

stay the same or decrease. About half of those voters said spending on policing should be kept the same. 34% said it should be increased and only 17% said it should be decreased. But an overwhelming majority of black voters think that policing needs major reforms. And that is basically Kamala Harris's message. She wants

a bunch of reforms. She wants to end mass incarceration, but also increase funding for community-based policing and training. So she's kind of in the sweet spot for a general election audience. Yeah. And the idea of funding police and reforming police, they're not opposites.

Right. I think most people will agree. One of the reasons why policing isn't where we'd like it to be is because we don't allocate the resources to training and the complexities that exist around policing that we should. Right. To defund the police was just some bad branding. That was that was a failure.

naive, silly bumper sticker. It was an attempt from people to have a bumper sticker who, unfortunately, the real sentence would have been too hard to encapsulate. And that is, we need to resource the police properly for the actual challenges they face, de-emphasize their violent interactions with the people. And many police forces have done this. Philadelphia, if a cop sees you and you don't have your licensed stickers not valid, they're

They will not pull you over anymore. You'll get something in the mail. They've just realized they don't want their first interactions with people to be what they are. There's a lot of space. And now that we're a little farther away from George Floyd and that rash of police deaths at the hands of police,

although there was one in Chicago just a few days ago. We may be able to have that discussion in a more nuanced fashion. We are not looking for a world without police and without policing. We just want a world in which we have better policing, and that might actually involve greater funding of police.

Yeah, absolutely. We're also now seeing kind of another debate about debating. Trump has said he is up for debating Kamala Harris, even though he initially seemed like he might be walking away from the second scheduled debate. He claims he might even do more than one debate. First of all, do you believe him? And, you know, given the...

the disaster we all lived through last month. Do you think it makes sense for Kamala Harris to squeeze in a debate and all the prep that goes into that in the very limited time we have left? I will say, you know much more about this stuff than I do, but I would argue no. I think debating Donald Trump is a mugs game. I'm not sure it's worth it because he's so performative and he's such a provocateur. And look, Kamala Harris, we haven't seen her debate for a while.

She was not top of her class in that. She landed one punch on Joe Biden last time, and it was a good one, but that was it. I'm not sure she should subject herself to it. On the other hand,

Who's going to be more provocative than Kamala Harris to Donald Trump? If she's got the attack lines, you could cause him to go on the defensive. I'm not sure it's worth it. I think Kamala Harris, here's another point. I'm not sure Kamala Harris fundraising is worth it. They're not having a fundraising problem. I think Kamala Harris needs to get out there, do those high energy rallies, motivate the base. She has an interesting thing in that she too has been prone to not gaffes, but

sort of saying things that are a little bit unusual and she's a bit quirky. And the K-Hive, the internet has decided they're going to take that and lean into it. She's not even getting in trouble for the quirkiness. They're embracing it. She should just get out there and own that stuff. These young energetic people, the digital masses that are behind her, I think that's where she should live. I just don't know that these debates are worth it. That last debate, Donald Trump lied, I don't know, 30, 50 times.

Nobody talked about it because they were just all focused on what Joe Biden was doing. So I'm not sure debates get you that far right now. I think she's got an opportunity. But, you know, smarter minds than I am are involved. I mean, every comment Trump makes about a woman he doesn't like is he calls her crazy, crazy Nancy Pelosi called Kamala Harris crazy. He tried to, you know, go after her laugh or call it a cackle. And the Internet was like, no, she seems happy. She's smiling like, well, what's wrong with a little joy in our lives?

here. And I was just reminded that Fox News has proposed a Trump-Harris debate on September 17th. So that could be a deadline. I mean, you know, it's interesting. I think I would argue if she's losing, she should debate, but there will be a cost to that. Like you have to come off the trail for, you know, extended period of time. You got to do a bunch of prep. Any prep she did on J.D. Vance is now worthless. Hopefully she didn't do much. But, you know, as an underdog, you got to shake it up a bit, but we'll see. I mean, the polling in a week could tell a different story.

Yeah. And one of the things we've seen in initial polling, there only been a few and they're very hard to, you know, they're not enough to do anything with. But a couple of things. One is the spread between her and Donald Trump is similar to what it was statistically with Biden. But everybody's a little more enthused. So her voter is a little more enthused and the people who don't like her are going to be a little more enthused. So that might might increase turnout, which is a good thing for elections.

But I think that the trick for her is not just swing voters in swing states. It's disaffected Democrats. She's not she doesn't live on the center left. And she was not historically seen as that person. She's largely been a moderate. The people we're talking about as potential VP picks right now.

are largely seen as moderates who will appeal to older white men. So we have to just think about that. What does that mean in terms of energizing bases? What's the base? What's the coalition right now? Are we going after undecided voters? Are we going after people who are disaffected by Trump? Or are we going after Democrats who were not going to vote for Biden? Remember, in the last election, 81 million votes for Biden. About 81 million registered voters didn't vote.

More people, almost as many people as voted for either of the presidential candidates didn't vote. That to me is a screaming opportunity for Kamala Harris. Absolutely. Last thing on Kamala Harris before we move on to J.D. Vance. It's been fun watching right wing voices try to cope with the last few days. Let's hear a clip from The Daily Wire's Ben Shapiro trying to explain away the enthusiasm for Kamala Harris.

exactly do her qualifications look like other than, again, the sort of intersectional magic of Kamala Harris and the fact that Democrats have to manufacture enthusiasm for I've never seen this much manufactured enthusiasm for anyone outside of maybe Taylor Swift. It's amazing.

Allie, do you think it's a good idea to compare Kamala Harris to a woman who just grossed a billion dollars on a concert? I was going to say, where's the insult there? Compare me to Taylor Swift any day of the week. That's wild that Ben Shapiro would even make that comparison because if he thinks those two should be compared, then Kamala Harris has got some sunny days ahead of her.

I don't know what he means by manufactured stuff. Like, I don't really know what that means. I saw Joe Biden step out on Sunday and I wondered what that's going to mean for the party and whether that's going to be a brokered convention and disarray and a whole bunch of people fighting for the job.

And within days, this thing just changed. That's not manufactured. That's the opposite of manufactured, actually. There's something organic about what has happened here, which surprises me. As somebody like you who watches us all the time, I did not expect to be having this conversation with you today about where we are. You want to call that manufactured? Do so at your own peril. I will tell you about manufactured. Ben Shapiro used to be an interesting, textured manufacturer.

character. Then he went to Home Depot one time and bought a piece of wood. And I don't know what happened after that, but he lost. That was the manufactured attempt to talk about something. I don't know, supply chains or wood or I don't know what it was, but that's manufactured. I think what he doesn't recognize anymore is what non-manufactured looks like, what organic actually looks like. And I will, I am not the person who thinks that Kamala Harris was always going to be the best candidate for this.

I will tell you something. There's some kind of groundswell happening that I did not anticipate. I don't know what it's about. I don't know how it came to be, but it's really there. I don't know if that, how you would have manufactured that.

Yeah, I think Ben is very good at manufacturing outrage, but not enthusiasm. I believe he also said that the Barbie movie was going to tank at the box office. So another good call. Also, just real quick, the idea that Kamala Harris isn't qualified is just it's laughable. She was a prosecutor. She was attorney general of the biggest state in the country. She was a United States senator and then vice president for four years.

I like, I, you don't get presidential candidate in there too, which is saying something. I mean, there was a time when presidential candidate was a real thing. It wasn't a sort of a gumball machine thing. Like it, it became in the Republican primary. So yeah, no, she's a, she's a real person. You can,

if you're at that level of arguing who's qualified for stuff, that might be interesting. If the Republicans were running someone who was actually good at being president the last time around, but he, you know, people have to remember he lost his attempt to win reelection in 2020. Yeah. So let's talk about someone who is manifestly unqualified, which is JD Vance. So coming off JD's convention speech, which frankly was preposterous,

pretty flat. Vance is now out there full time as Trump's main surrogate. The reviews are not great. There seem to be there's this like weird thing he does all the time where he pauses his speech to laugh at something inaudible shouted by someone in the audience. And it's just really not working. Let's hear a clip of that. It is the weirdest thing to me. Democrats say that it is racist to believe. Well, they say it's racist to do anything.

I had a diet Mountain Dew yesterday and one today. I'm sure they're going to call that racist, too. But it's good. I love you guys. Ali, am I being unfair here? Am I being like a liberal Ben Shapiro right now and just coping in my own way by selectively editing this guy to tell a story about him that I want to hear? Or what do you think of these early stumbles and advances? You know, is your assessment of him as a political animal?

This is the problem with people who people don't really know all that well, right? They think they know them because they've heard their name. They won an election. But a lot of people have not had a chance to actually listen to J.D. Vance. He's delivering on exactly what J.D. Vance actually is. He's a very smart guy. There's no question. He's empirically smart. He's got a life experience, a life story that is remarkably compelling. But this is J.D. Vance. He's an opportunist. He's a grifter.

He may have a thinner skin than Donald Trump, which is hard to imagine. This is actually who he is. He's not actually that good. And if Kamala Harris takes an opportunity to pick a vice presidential candidate, most of them that we seem to be thinking about right now are the kind who I would tune into that debate. That's a debate I think is worth it.

having a JD Vance, the vice presidential debate based on the people that Kamala Harris is vetting as a, as a candidate, but that's who he is. He's not, he's not nearly as substantial as you'd think his life experience and his book and the movie made about his book should be. His arguments are a little weak, the diet Mountain Dew stuff, the, the everything's racist. He also made a comment the other day, which is very telling. And it's about the, it's the point of the whole exercise, why you want JD Vance. He implied that,

It's great coded language. Kamala Harris is not grateful to America. Feels familiar as an Obama staffer. Right? Right? I mean, what have we learned? That being critical of your country is a sign of love. Being critical of your country is a sign of patriotism. And Kamala Harris should take this opportunity to embrace that. Like to bring Democrats, you know, like Democrats, you just, everybody should have a flag in front of their house and flag pins and flag hats and all this kind of stuff. This is nonsensical. Not grateful to my country.

Right. I don't think you should use that about Democrats. I don't think you should use it about Republicans. But this is where a guy like J.D. Vance will go with this stuff. You you owe it to us to be grateful. You're ungrateful if you don't like the fact that there are white too many white men controlling the place. You're basically ungrateful. He's not he's not as sophisticated as I think people thought he might be.

Yeah, they are trying to other her in ways that make her seem, I don't know, not American in some sense. They're also calling her a DEI vice president of national selection, which again is racist and sexist and offensive. And McCarthy told them not to do it. Like when Kevin McCarthy...

is telling you guys this is a bad move for all the reasons you cited, for the things she's actually been elected by voters in the largest state in the country to do numerous times statewide, the position she's actually held as a United States senator, as the vice president of the United States. If that's a DEI hire, then I don't understand what DEI is. And also, listen, every vice presidential nominee has basically...

two boxes you check. One, are you qualified to do the job as president? Yes. Okay. What political benefit do you provide to the ticket? So if you want to say that Mike Pence is a DEI hire for evangelicals, go ahead, say it. But it's just, it's an insufferable sexist, racist way to describe her and make her seem different than every other VP ever. I think that, here's the thing, and again, this is more your territory than mine. I think ultimately,

That helps because it does fire her up. It does get her to talk about who she actually is, which Americans need to know. People are not intimately connected to people who didn't win the nomination last time around. And frankly, in this country, becoming vice president doesn't actually make people know you any better until the time that you run for president. So this is her moment. And the thing that you know that a lot of Americans don't know is this is what campaigns are for. This

This is actually what you do in a campaign. You, this is your opportunity to let people find out who you are. And she's got a lot of questions that she now knows, knows needs to be answered and she can answer those. Yeah, that's right. And so does JD. And I think one thing that liberals don't love to admit is that Trump can be very funny. He can be very charming. His rallies are fun for the people who go to them, their body. He tells stories. Often they make

no sense, but people love it. I've seen zero indication that JD Vance has a winning personality or could fire up a MAGA crowd. I mean, there's no doubt he could get a room full of venture capitalists going or like, you know, some incel adjacent YouTubers. But despite his resume, like I just, I have not seen him yet connect with the MAGA base. Maybe it'll happen. Time will tell. But, um,

you know, Trump is sort of a singular figure in the party and you're starting to see some reporting that maybe his allies are not happy with the pick. I have a lot of people, a lot of our viewers who say, I don't know why you guys are on about why this is a tight race. This is before Biden stepped out. Biden's going to win. It's going to be a democratic blowout. And I say to people, I know this is terrible because it's two hours or three hours. You'll never, ever get back, but you should watch a Trump rally. And God forbid, if you're close to one, let

tended to understand the difference, understand the spiritual link between the attendee and the guy who would like to be seen as a spiritual guy, as a Christ-like figure. Just try and understand that because it exists in this weird way. So where Joe Biden would flub because his words would fail him or whatever the case was,

Donald Trump forgets what he's doing and he just carries on about sharks and batteries and whether it's better to die by electrocution or by shark bite. It's just his coping mechanism, which by the way, I think people like us who are talking all the time also sometimes do. It's like, I forgot my train of thought. I'll just tell you about something else. That's what he does. It's nonsensical, but it is funny. Donald Trump told a story after I got shot with a rubber bullet in Minneapolis. He told months later, he would tell the story at every rally about my getting shot. Hmm.

much more interesting than what actually happened. Really? More compelling. I wish I were that guy in Minneapolis who, what do you know, who was in the middle of what Donald Trump said had actually happened. He's much better. He's a really good storyteller and it does compel people because what they don't do is lean into his flaws, uh, where, where the K hive is, is in a funny, good way, leaning into where Kamala Harris does or says funny things, which she, she does a fair amount.

They just ignore that he did that. Right. They won't tell you that he went on this weird diatribe about sharks and batteries. They'll just pretend that he's something else. And so that's another lesson for Kamala Harris. Lean into it. Have some fun. Yeah, I've enjoyed watching her on the stump looking so happy and wondering if she tried to maybe reduce the grin a little bit in case Joe Biden is watching, but mostly just celebrating it. Where did the rubber bullet hit you?

Just below my knee, which is really good because in the knee, it would wreck your knee. Oh, my God. It was like in my shin bone, which apparently is not a bad place to get hit. But, you know, a lot of people got attacked by police that night. And one of them, a photojournalist, got hit in her eye. She's now in hospice. So, you know, people need to remember this stuff is real. Like our police should not be shooting people.

unarmed civilians who are not involved in violent activity with rubber bullets. No extra protection because we're journalists. We're not entitled to more protection than every citizen in this country should have. But, you know, that's some bad stuff. And that was stoked by, I don't know who shot me and I don't know what was on their mind or what they saw in their scope. But we were in a moment, if you'll recall, where Donald Trump himself was stoking this idea of violence between

and towards civilians who were thought to be unruly. Those are dark moments in our history that we could be headed back toward if we make some bad choices in November. Man, well, I'm sorry that happened to you. And I also feel like the term rubber bullet is maybe a little too euphemistic. Not enough. Yeah, it's a rubber-covered axiom.

actual bullet. It's not going to bounce off you. It's going to bounce off the ground, not you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of VP selections, I did want to get your take on sort of the veep stakes on the Democratic side. Is there a short, short list in your mind or anyone you think, you know, sort of becoming the smartest pick?

I think there, you know, folks are coalescing around a few remarkably good potential choices. The tricky one, of course, is Gretchen Whitmer because she said she won't do it. But I'm curious to see what goes on there because Michigan is the swing state that is most winnable if

uh all hands are on deck gretchen whitmer and her statewide team have demonstrated that that they know how to win that state if all hands are on deck and for the moment all hands are not on deck in michigan so i'm curious about that i think mark kelly is a very interesting choice if

you are prepared for the risk of losing a Senate seat. Mark Kelly, as a military man, as an astronaut, as a gun owner, as a person whose wife was shot in the head, a member of Congress, he's eminently qualified and would be appealing to those people who are scared of Democrats or scared of maybe even a black South Asian president. I think Josh Shapiro is a really smart person. Sure, it probably solidifies Pennsylvania, which he won by a lot.

On the other hand, not that much distinction between the two of them. They have similar backgrounds. So I don't know what it necessarily gets you, but I think he's very strong. I think the Roy Cooper conversation is very interesting. He's a lot older. He's 67 years old. But this is a guy who not only has won in a state that Democrats in North Carolina, Democrats can afford, you know, it would be really good for them to put into play.

He also has done it through appeal to the same things. He has gone all out on abortion. He is really seen as a leader on that. And I maintain that abortion will be the number one issue that drives voters this time around. So that combination intrigues me as well. I think she's got a lot of good choices.

Yeah, I do too. And I think there's kind of two categories. There's people who jump off the page just in terms of resume. And that's a Mark Kelly. I mean, you say you're an astronaut, like that's end of the conversation. But I think a lot of people would say he doesn't necessarily, he hasn't jumped off the page in interviews.

I would argue that Whitmer is probably more of a combination of both, like someone who seemed to be a really good political athlete and has a great resume and is from a good state. Shapiro, of course, Mayor Pete Buttigieg is another one who, you know, really has distinguished himself as one of the best messengers in the Democratic Party period. He's we absolutely there's a guy who cannot be shaken from. I mean that in a good way as a guy who interviews people.

And I have, you know, the thing about Mayor Secretary Pete is that he he does come on. He comes on my show. He comes out, goes on Fox. He will meet all comers. And so part of our job is to is to shake him off his message, right, to to hold power to account, because sometimes I've interviewed him when times have been tough or he's overseeing, you know, he's overseeing a few things that are really bad.

And he engages all the time. He engages all the time. And I think that's really important in this, in this space that we're in right now. He's a great debater. Um, he's got broad appeal. I think I, I didn't mention his name cause I know he's, he's on a show today. Yeah. He's, he's definitely an obvious and important contender. Yeah. He's interesting pick. And also if you, if you talk to people who, uh, know him or work for him,

they'll say to you, like just the key to a good interview with Pete is don't bore him. You have to like piss him off a little bit or challenge him. And he likes that better. And he makes it up. President Biden is giving an Oval Office address tonight about his decision to step aside and what he'll do with the remainder of this term. You and I won't have seen it when this posts. So John and Dan will cover it on Friday's show. But I just wanted to ask you what you think about

potential opportunities for President Biden in this lame duck period now that he is unburdened by what has been and can just kind of not worry about an election in the future? Do you have a wish list?

Yeah, and the first one we'll see tonight is that not facing the pressure of ever having – of saying something incorrectly or misspeaking I think – I hope helps him because I admire him. I think he will go down as a great president, and I would love to just hear that Joe Biden that so many of us have heard so many times, which is the free-speaking, free-thinking Joe Biden. I think it will enable him – Ukraine has not been an issue for him because generally speaking, other than a few isolationist –

weirdos in Congress. It is still, generally speaking, a bipartisan thing, despite the fact that Mike Johnson

and instructions from Trump has tried to stymie this. Israel-Gaza is a place that he may be able to use this political moment to say, I'm now not beholden to particular interests to move forward and put pressure on all the parties more so than he's been able to in the past. But I do think that Joe Biden's not going to go quietly into the dark. I think he's a potent and important force in the Democratic Party and in the world for democracy. I think there's a big role for him in the next few months.

Yeah, I mean, I want to expand on the opportunities when it comes to Israel, Gaza in a minute. But I agree with you because I think anyone who runs for president doesn't just want to be president. They want to be a great president. And you can hear that in the way Joe Biden talks about his accomplishments. He thinks he's done a lot and he wants credit for it. He wants to build on that. I think the biggest space he'll have is on foreign policy. Ben Rhodes and I were talking about this today on this episode of Pod Save the World.

I would love to see, Ben would love to see if Joe Biden could cut some kind of revised nuclear agreement with Iran. Now that there's new leadership in Iran, they elected a more moderate president. You could go back to the Obama era Cuba policies, which admittedly were wildly unpopular in Florida. But Florida is gone politically. But important, right. But they're important for the world.

Let's do the right thing. Let's get rid of a blockade that's been in place for 70 years. I'd love to see Joe Biden really personally engage to end the civil war in Sudan, which is the worst humanitarian disaster that no one is talking about. It doesn't make it onto anybody's newscast.

Yes. You could go to countries like Poland where you're seeing democratic leaders win elections and push back on these authoritarian trends that we're seeing in other parts of the world, like put some wind in the sails of progressives in other places. So those are very nerdy. Those are very foreign policy focused. Those world leaders respect him. People do respect him. They worry very much about Donald Trump as a president. I think they will respect Kamala Harris.

And I think Kamala Harris has a great opportunity to do a lot of right things on that front. But Joe Biden brought heft and decades of experience to those issues where he didn't have to read in. He can use that in his final months of his presidency to do some of those things. You know, Cuba was an interesting thing that was unpopular before.

But people didn't understand the threat of an expansionist Russia at the time. They hadn't realized. Like all of a sudden, Cuba's really, really crucially important in a world where- The Chinese are building spy bases on Cuba. Now this becomes strategically, obviously in your days in the administration, you guys understood that. You could see ahead. You could see around those corners. The corners are here now. We're around the corner. We know how this is going to unfold if we do not use the necessary influence that we need to. Getting out of the Iran deal was the most boneheaded thing ever.

anybody's ever done because now we have this war blazing in the middle East and, and can't pick up the phone and call Iran and say, guys, listen, this is, this is me and you let's, let's just stop this right now. We don't have that ability. We use intermediaries. It's BS. Why do we have to do that? We had a deal. I don't know that we'll succeed in getting back into it, but that would definitely be something for Joe Biden to put his back into.

When we come back, you're going to hear my conversation with Pete Buttigieg. We're talking with him in his personal capacity as a surrogate for Vice President Harris on the campaign trail. So stick around for that. And just flagging, we had a little bit of latency issues, a little bit of audio issues, but I promise it's not that bad. But before that, we have another exciting Vote Save America episode.

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And so I have some of those treats at night once in a while. Scoop up these new, crispy, crunchy, protein-packed treats in your nearest grocery store. Magic spoon. Hold on to the dream. My guest today serves in the Biden administration as Secretary of Transportation, but he's here today in a personal capacity to talk about hitting the campaign trail on behalf of Vice President Harris and the Democratic Party. Welcome to the show, Pete Buttigieg.

Thanks. Thanks for having me on. It's great to see you. Thank you for doing the show. It has been a weird couple of weeks. We had the debate, the assassination attempt on Donald Trump, President Biden making this bold decision to step back. And now Vice President Harris is the presumptive nominee. We've all been watching this from the outside. You're very much on the inside. What is this last month been like for you?

You know, there's that saying there are decades when nothing happens and there are weeks when decades happen. And that's how it's felt. Just so much turbulence, so much upheaval every day. You know, I think honestly, inside the spaces I've been hasn't been that different from what it's like for everyone else just as an American.

a lot of uncertainty, a lot of concern. But now we're in this moment where there's a lot of hope, there's a lot of energy. One of the things that's been amazing to me just the last couple of days is how people are rallying around Kamala Harris with enthusiasm. And I think that shift in energy, that shift in tone has been really exciting coming out of everything that we've been through.

Yeah, the vibes are good. You were on Bill Maher show last week and you you succinctly but brutally laid out all the ways in which J.D. Vance is a fraud, as often happens with your interviews. The clips went viral because a lot of Democrats watch them and think this guy is one of the best messengers in the party and they want to see more of you on the campaign trail, including potentially as president.

Kamala Harris's vice presidential nominee. I was wondering if that's something you would consider if you've heard from the campaign about vetting at all and whether you need to be vetted since you're currently in the cabinet. Well,

What I can say is I'm going to do everything I can to help her win. And I don't know exactly what shape that'll take, but I know that my job, to the extent that I'm involved in politics outside of my day job, is going to be to do everything I can to convince Americans to support this ticket. And I think Americans already support the values of this ticket. They already agree with her and disagree with Donald Trump on so many of the issues, especially in places like the Midwest, where I come from and where J.D. Vance, I think, was intended to try to speak to. So

Who knows exactly what what shape that takes, but I'm gonna do everything I can to help. So you're seeing reports that some Trump allies actually already regret the JD Vance pick. There's clips going around from his events where he just looks like a awkward goober and he's kind of bad on the stump. What do you what do you make of the guy?

Yeah, I mean, it's I think it is a regrettable pick. I mean, you know, he's somebody who obviously has been thrust into this. Not a lot of experience in office before that. Some people, you know, very early into a Senate career proved to be successful.

immediately to be extraordinary national level, next level leaders like Barack Obama, but most don't. And I think we're seeing a little bit of that. But more than just his style or his fluency or his comfort on the stump, what I think is really concerning about him is how out of line he is with Americans. I think he was picked

on this theory that he's from Ohio, he has roots in Appalachia, he has this biography that's going to connect him to most Americans. But you look at his actual views, whether it's the kind of faux nature of his populism, because he's actually on board with tax cuts for the rich and has a 0% rating from labor. And just the more you look at it, the more out of touch he is there. But also, you could not have found

a more anti-Ukraine person to pick to put on this ticket, which puts them out of line with even a lot of Republicans. And at a moment when

the Trump campaign is trying desperately to distance itself from its own policy blueprint, which is Project 2025. I just learned that he literally wrote the forward to a forthcoming book that might as well be entitled Project 2025, the book. It's by the leader of the Heritage Foundation. It's really kind of a popularized version of that policy manual, which is so wildly unpopular that even President Trump is claiming he knows nothing about it.

Yeah, he was a DEI pick for self-aggrandizing biographers is what I heard. I have a pitch for you that falls in the category of easier said than done, but bear with me. You have a very big, very important job over at the Department of Transportation, but nothing is more important than winning this election. Have you considered...

resigning from DOT and just becoming a full-time surrogate for the campaign? Like you live in Michigan, Wisconsin's a quick flight. We could have you home for bedtime at night. What do you think? So, you know, just like a lot of people who are involved in politics are running for office themselves. I'm working to walk into Chugam at the same time, obviously busy with the day job, which I love, but also busy doing what I can on the campaign and balancing the three things that really matter.

which is doing a good job at work, doing a good job for the ticket and trying to do a good job as a dad and a spouse to Chaston, which, as you know, is the most demanding thing of all. So I've not convinced you to quiet quit, duly noted. So as we said at the top, the vibes in the Democratic Party are excellent right now.

But you and I know that like a flood of attacks are coming from the Trump campaign soon. A lot of political strategists I know look back at the debates in the 2020 primary and the way the party got pulled to the left and worry that they were quite damaging on a bunch of issues. And they gave Republicans fodder to attack Vice President Harris.

Dave McCormick, who is a hedge fund guy running for Senate in Pennsylvania, has an ad up highlighting some of Vice President Harris's comments from that primary. They include banning fracking, getting rid of the filibuster, treating illegal border crossings as a civil offense, abolishing ICE. The list goes on, but I'll stop there. You were literally in the middle of those debates, you know, on stage.

How worried are you about Republican efforts to weaponize the policy debates from 2020? And how does the Harris campaign fight back? Well, look, what the Republicans are doing is predictable and it's unimaginative. It's what they always do for any Democrat running against any Republican, which is to say the Democrats too far left. I don't care if it's the most conservative Democrat in history. That's what they'll say. And so that's the first thing they're reaching for now is they scramble to come up with some kind of angle. But I think a couple of things are important to remember.

First of all, in that 2020 primary process, you know, there was a lot of lanes. There was a lot of sorting us all out on a spectrum, right? That the 20 of us who ran, there was very much a left lane and she was very much not in that lane. You know, you had Bernie Sanders, you had in a different way, Senator Warren, but that is not the space that she occupied. So even within the Democratic Party, it's just not on.

honest to say that she's from some kind of fringe or even from one end. And of course, she's served in this administration whose policy priorities have been in line with the mainstream of the American people, unlike Republicans, right? Like most Americans, she's for protecting her right to choose. Like most Americans, she thinks rich ought to pay the fair share. Trump advances about the opposite. The other thing I want to say though is I don't think that attack is going to have a lot of potency given who it's coming from. In other words,

Nobody's going to out radical Donald Trump, right? You have to get led by a guy who talks about terminating the constitution, inspired political violence against the transfer of power in this country. I just don't think it's credible. Even if you do disagree with the top of our ticket on some particular policy issue, at the end of the day, if this election is going to be about who's more extreme, that is really going to be a dynamic that counts against Donald Trump.

Yeah, I agree with you there. The other attack that we just know is coming is going to be on immigration. Republicans are claiming that Vice President Harris was Biden's border czar. That is not true. She had a job where she was focused on the root causes of migration in Central America, but they're going to lay the entire situation at her feet. Immigration has been one of the worst polling issues for President Biden for a long time now. How do you think Vice President Harris can make a break from the Biden administration's record on immigration and then go on offense?

Well, you know, she's going to lay out her own vision, her own policy, which may be similar in some ways and may be distinguished in some ways from President Biden's. But look, I think everybody gets this is a tough issue. And that's why they're trying to lie about her role. The reality is that she did diplomacy with Central American countries and good diplomacy at that.

But I think the more important thing, of course, is the fact that Trump did nothing to deal with the decades long issue of our immigration system being out of whack. And he went out of his way to block a

bipartisan compromise that would have really helped. And I think we really need to make sure there's some accountability for that. You know, he did this not even as an elected official, as an outside force when Republicans and Democrats negotiated an approach. One that was, by the way, hard for a lot of Democrats to come on board with.

Hard for the Biden-Harris administration to embrace because it did concede a lot of things to the conservative position. But that's how a tough bipartisan compromise works. It was teed up. It was ready to go. If you know anything about Senator Lankford, this is not a bleeding heart liberal Republican. Only for Donald Trump to come in and kill it because, obviously, he needs this to stay bad.

He needs the chaos to continue because he thrives on chaos. Yeah. Trump's campaign manager, Chris LaCivita, also told The Bulwark that they plan to attack Vice President Harris for being, quote, part of the cover up with Biden's fitness to serve. This is something you're already hearing from a lot of Republicans. Even some members of the mainstream media are suggesting there was some sort of cover up there.

Do you think there was an effort to keep President Biden out of the spotlight to avoid concerns about his age? And if not, like, what's the best way to fight that perception? Yeah, I think we need to distinguish between the work that President Biden has done and continues to do as president and the idea of him campaigning, being out on the trail and doing both of those things at the same time. And he made a decision to fully concentrate on the presidency. It's worth mentioning that he's really good at being president.

I know I'm proud to be associated with that. She has a lot to be proud of being part of that. And I think that's the best and simplest response. It's just, you know, we're going to hear from the president directly. And I think he's going to continue to remind us of why he has

has been one of the most effective presidents in modern times. That didn't change when he decided he wasn't going to accept the nomination and run for another term. If anything, I think his selfless decision consolidates his standing as a great American president with several months to go in this presidency that I expect he will use to their fullest.

Final question. You and Chasten have two adorable two-year-old twins. I have a 19-month-old and a two-month-old, so we're both kind of, we're in it. Can we do a quick dad lightning round here? Let's do it. Okay. Which is a crazier block of time in your house? 6 a.m. to 8 a.m. or 5 p.m. to 7 p.m.? I would definitely go with the dinner bath time block as a rule, except somehow, against all odds, we are now raising a morning person, our son.

rocks up at like 530 in the morning, whatever, whenever there's first light. And if we don't respond, he goes downstairs and brings up a guitar. Oh, man, I got to make sure I hide all guitars from my daughter because that sounds like a fun pen. Are you guys fans of Miss Rachel? How are we feeling about screen time? I'm strongly pro Miss Rachel. I'm told that I don't know how much she earns, maybe millions per episode. She deserves every penny, every penny, every penny. I love Miss Rachel swings or slides. Oh, yeah.

I mean, the thing about swings is they stay in the swing, at least like a little kiddo toddler swing, right? Whereas the slide, they can go any number of directions, but potentially off the side of those swings. But I can see it either way. How about you? Yeah.

We're a swing family in part because my wife bought the shittiest possible version of a swing off of Amazon and we assembled it and we can basically put it in the living room with a 19 month old. She doesn't know the difference, so we're good. But yeah, so far swings. You're right, though. We've had some injuries off of slides at times because maybe dad was looking at his phone. We won't get.

too deep on that one. But yes, swings are safer. Pete, thank you so much for doing the show. Great to talk with you as always. And thanks for all the work you're doing. See you on the campaign trail. Same here. Thanks for having me on. We're going to take another quick break. When we come back, Ali and I are going to talk about Bibi Netanyahu's address to Congress. So stick around for that.

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Get the ACLU's roadmap at aclu.org slash memos. All right, Ali, finally, Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu just gave an address to a joint session of Congress at the invitation of Speaker Johnson, but also, you know, maybe grudgingly endorsed by Hakeem Jeffries and Senator Chuck Schumer. So this was a bipartisan mistake that we all just

were forced to witness. A lot of Democrats did not attend, including Vice President Harris, who as VP is president of the Senate. But President Pro Tem, Patty Murray didn't go. Bernie Sanders didn't go. Tim Kaine, AOC. There's been reports of 80 to 100 members of Congress skipping. I saw Rashida Tlaib attended, but had a sign up calling him a war criminal, which was

nice. Johnson said ahead of time that there would be zero tolerance for any interruptions. I don't think I saw any. I do think they might have asked Representative Tlaib to put down her sign eventually. So maybe that will count. But Netanyahu laid out an unbelievably dark vision of the war in Gaza, of the U.S.-Israel relationship, and much more. Here's some key bits. I want to thank President Biden for

for his tireless efforts on behalf of the hostages and for his efforts to the hostage families as well. And he came to Israel to stand with us during our darkest hour, a visit that will never be forgotten. Clarity begins by knowing the difference between good and evil. Yet incredibly, many anti-Israel protesters

many choose to stand with evil. So these protesters burn American flags even on the 4th of July. And I wish to salute the fraternity brothers at the University of North Carolina who protected the American flag. My friends, if you remember one thing, one thing from the speech, remember this: Our enemies are your enemies. Our fight is your fight. And our victory will be your victory.

But for the foreseeable future, we must retain overriding security control there to prevent the resurgence of terror, to ensure that Gaza never again poses a threat to Israel. Let's just start with reactions to the speech. I think it's important to remember that speech is to shore Benjamin Netanyahu up domestically in Israel. Yes.

I think the only person that mattered in an American audience for him is Donald Trump. Benjamin Netanyahu, like Donald Trump, if he does not continue to be the prime minister of Israel, is going to be in a lot of legal hot water. He'll probably be in a lot of legal hot water anyway. So this has become existential for him. I think something he said at the beginning of the speech really stood out for me. He said, this is not a clash of civilizations. This is a battle between civilization and barbarism. And this is a...

He did a really good job, and this is why one can never write Benjamin Netanyahu off, of making this seem not like a war in which tens of thousands of civilians, children, women have died and people have lost their homes. It's made it seem like the 39,000, 40,000 people who are dead are all Hamas soldiers and terrorists.

You know, he's got an argument when he talks about Hamas and their soldiers. He's got an argument about why that's a war. And Hamas probably should have paid much more attention to that prior to October 7th to say, what, can we keep this as a military to military type of thing? But Benjamin Netanyahu has glossed over all of that. He introduced

A hostage, a former hostage, which was amazing to see her in freedom because Noah Arghamani's face is somebody we saw on October 7th being taken away. But he didn't mention the fact that there are still hostages in there is because he's not actually trying as hard as he could be to get them out. There are deals on the table that he's not agreeing to because when this ends, he could end.

It also ends for Hamas leaders, which is why they're also not motivated, because the protagonist of this thing will all cease to exist in some fashion if this war ends. But Benjamin Netanyahu at this point is as much a protagonist and an antagonist. And there was nothing about that in the speech. They were promising some conversation about the day after. There was no day after other than the fact that he said Israel does not want to reoccupy Gaza. But there was no actual plan. So.

a disappointing speech, disappointing to see the number of Democrats who stood up for what was theater. Most of the people who didn't attend were Democrats. Thomas Massey of Kentucky didn't attend. And he stated, he said, I don't want to be a prop for a piece of theater. That was a piece of theater. Yeah, and they were props for a piece of theater. You're right. I mean, you're right.

- Bibi's goal here was to go back home and say, look, everybody, I can still wrap these American politicians around my little finger. It doesn't matter that 70% of you in a recent poll want me to go. I'm still the guy for the job because our existence depends on support from the Americans and I'm the guy who can deliver that.

I have to say, stepping back, like I expected that speech to be bad because I, you know, was watched the 2015 speech Netanyahu delivered to Congress where he just attacked Obama. But I am shocked at how upsetting I found watching that. It felt like I was watching a Bush era war on terror speech.

Yes, it was a bingoistic cheerleading for war, entirely bereft of any regret for civilian Palestinian deaths, entirely bereft of any understanding as to you can, you can for valid reason and good reason think that Hamas is the worst thing in the world for the Palestinians and for the world, but no acknowledgement of what do you think they're fighting for? You think there's random folks out there with no reason to be frustrated by years of what Gaza is?

You know, maybe we're just disappointed because we expect there to be nuance where there is no nuance. He actually said in his speech that there is no context for stuff. It's like there's always context. That's just a ridiculous thing to say. But the idea that he can go out there and make what sounded like a State of the Union speech in which he just kept introducing guest after guest after guest and get these standing ovations from American elected politicians, given that we are party to this war in which lots of civilians are dying.

is kind of remarkable. It's kind of disappointing. And yeah, he pulled one over on America again. Yeah. And yeah, it was black versus white, good versus evil. Like I have no time for Hamas. I think what happened on October 7th was evil and indefensible in any attack on a civilian can never be defended. I will never support that in any context. But

But the venom in his voice, the anger, the enemies in this speech, it was not just Hamas. It included American protesters, American college students, college professors, college presidents. And the thing he didn't... Everybody went after... He...

If you don't agree with what he's doing, you're actually the enemy. But he went beyond that. It's not just the enemy. You're an enemy of Israel. You're an enemy of civilization. He actually painted it as either you're with me or you're an enemy of civilization. It lacked all nuance. If you are the prime minister of Israel in this fraught moment, there is such opportunity for leadership. And he is...

dodge that opportunity at every chance that he's been given. There are hostage families in America who are protesting saying, why is he here? Why is he even here? I don't understand what this is for. Why is he here? We just need a deal. We just need our people released. That's all we need right now. You can deal with Hamas as you see fit because they can. The Israelis can. Mossad can take out. They know who all the Hamas leaders are. They will take out every last one of them. And that's a fair fight.

Civilian noncombatants are not a fair fight. Israeli civilian noncombatants are not a fair fight. That should never have happened. Not one of them should have died in this whole argument. He said at one point, when he talked about Donald Trump, the assassination attempt, he said, there is no place for violence in a, for political violence in a democracy.

That's a little much coming from Benjamin Netanyahu. It is. It is. And I just want to say some things I didn't hear him say. I did not hear him take responsibility for the October 7th attacks. Remember, he was Mr. Security. That was his promise to the countries that he would keep them safe. The entire raison d'etre.

is that I'm the guy who's going to keep you safe. This happened on his watch. He has not taken any responsibility. I heard excuses that absolved the IDF of any responsibility for civilian casualties or for people starving to death in Gaza. I did not hear any sympathy for the thousands of innocent people killed. Certainly the children are not combatants.

thousands of children who have died in this war. I found it incredibly upsetting, as you mentioned, to see him single out the families of these hostages over and over again, when we know that in Israel, Netanyahu is believed to be the biggest impediment to getting them home because he won't cut a ceasefire deal that his team will negotiate it and then he'll walk away from it.

The protests every day are led by hostage families. The families of the hostages are the ones who are saying, there's a way to get people out. We've had these deals on the table. It was May when Joe Biden said, we've got a deal ready to go. Turned out to be premature. And it may never come to pass. I hope it does. But that's exactly right. I think we all thinking people can agree.

these hostages should not be there they need to be released now there's no question that there needs to be a conversation about what happens afterwards and it does seem like there's an infrastructure in a deal for having that conversation ben and i have this talk all the time it's not he's not hopeful that it's all going to work out that we're going to solve this problem suddenly but we can't throw up our hands and say we're not going to and that jingoistic bumper sticker speech that netanyahu gave that was literally a good and evil you're right it was very much

a war on terror Bush era speech, good versus evil. It's much more complicated than that. And for him to do that and for everybody to get up and clap their hands and to see Democrats clapping their hands for that stuff, there are some things that are always worth clapping your hands for, honoring people, a hostage, Noah Argamani, absolutely 100% worth clapping for. But

But he was giving a political speech for which Democrats were applauding. And I don't understand that. - And look, there might be people listening to this screaming at their phones saying Hamas could end this war today if they would just let the hostages go. And you know what? You're right. Of course they could. But we have to live in reality where Hamas is a terrorist group, but they're also a political actor.

And Israel is a political actor here, and they're trying to cut a deal, a ceasefire deal that includes a hostage release scenario. And Netanyahu just won't get it over the finish line. The Israeli generals want that deal. The Israeli civilians want that deal. The Israeli military wants that deal. The hostage families want that deal. There are Palestinians who are desperate for this. There are Palestinians who...

think Hamas is the worst thing that ever happened to them. It brought terror on their homes. There are others who think Hamas got me out of jail in a prisoner swap for hostages. It's just complicated. And for Netanyahu to say that if you don't agree with this, then you must be that, it's just not correct. You and I can both sit here and say what happened on October 7th was terrible. I've spent time in Gaza. I've been able to say it.

Worst thing to happen to Gaza is Hamas. There's no question about that. But you can hold we're not squirrels. We can hold several thoughts at the same time that everybody there is entitled to safety and prosperity and self-determination. And it's our work to help them get to that. What you heard in that speech today had nothing to do with safety for Palestinians, self-determination and peace. It was just about security.

an attack on what he called barbarism, which we're supposed to mean anything that he does in Gaza is fine because it's all about fighting barbarism. Yeah. And we can't ignore the broader context, which is that the Knesset just voted against a two-state solution. So Bibi Netanyahu walked away from a two-state solution long ago, but that is the broader political context here. Long ago, in the 90s. Let's just be clear about that because for some reason there's this impression in the West that

He's been in favor of that, Americans are, and the Palestinians haven't. The Palestinians and the Oslo Accord signed on to a two-state solution. I mean, they've agreed to that. They agreed that they would not have institutional violence. Hamas is a different operation. As we've learned, or I hope we've learned, most people in Gaza didn't vote for Hamas. They're too young to have voted for them. They've not had an election in a long time. And part of the reason there hasn't been an election in the West Bank

Because the Israelis and the Americans also didn't want one because they know what would happen, that Hamas would also have won in the West Bank. And then you'd have Hamas in two places, which is why Netanyahu supported Hamas's funding through Qatar. He was trying to keep everybody out of balance and it collapsed on him.

But that story doesn't get told. There was none of that. There was an opportunity today for a meaningful speech. I don't think you and I thought that was going to happen, but it was yet more jingoistic than I think we both expected. Yeah, it truly was. So Biden and Netanyahu met at the White House one-on-one, and tomorrow they're going to meet with the families of the American hostages being held by Hamas. Look, it's obvious to me that Netanyahu is pulling for Trump to win the election. They're going to meet, I think, on Friday. That said...

Trump's relationship with Netanyahu is not great. Here's a clip from a Trump speech that he delivered just after the October 7th attacks. You know, I did have a bad experience with Israel, though. When we took out Soleimani, it was us and Israel working as a group. And we knew where he was. We knew how he was coming in. We knew the plane. We knew everything. Israel was going to do this with us and it was being planned and

Working on it for months and now we had everything all set to go and the night before it happened I got a call that Israel will not be participating in this attack And he came on in the plane and we followed him right from the Situation Room We followed the whole thing and about 15 seconds later. It was all over and we did it, but I'll never forget I'll never forget

that Bibi Netanyahu let us down. That was a very terrible thing. I will say that. I think that story is total nonsense, by the way. I think the Israeli provided... First of all, are you supposed to be saying that stuff if you're really, you know, like, is that, is there a national security issue with describing exactly how you got him? But yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I think the Israelis gave us some intelligence, maybe the cell phone for Soleimani. But like they didn't need to be part of the strike. It was just a drone strike. The Americans do all the time. Is that falling out worse than J.D. Vance calling Trump heroin? I mean, they're they're all transactional, right? Yeah. Netanyahu and Trump are transactional. They need each other. Netanyahu needs Trump to become the president of the United States so that America continues to fund Israel's weaponry and doesn't attach any strings to it.

And Trump needs Netanyahu to help him with American voters. So it's transactional to both of them. And both of them have shown a remarkable ability to overcome personal differences to do that. I would say that Joe Biden gave Netanyahu a remarkable bear hug right after October 7th and showed remarkable support for Israel. And that cost Joe Biden to some degree politically. But he did. He did that.

That's where and I you know, I've heard that President Obama advised Joe Biden Don't don't don't get into bed with this guy because it never works. It never works. It'll never pay off they'll never be anything that comes of Getting to bed with with Netanyahu and that's what happens I mean Joe Biden by all accounts did the right thing by by Benjamin Netanyahu after October 7th and Benjamin Netanyahu is for all intents and purposes gonna stump for Donald Trump

Yeah, look, I think Joe Biden's a Zionist in his bones. And I think he thought he had a unique relationship with Bibi Netanyahu that could work for both of them. I don't think it did. I think that you're right that the Trump relationship with Netanyahu is transactional and complicated. Trump was reportedly furious that Netanyahu congratulated Biden on his victory so quickly in a conversation with a great reporter named Barack Ravid at Axios.

Trump said of Netanyahu, fuck him because of that congratulatory phone call. I did hear what I heard today in BB speech was an effort to really kiss some Trump ass. There was lots about the Abraham Accords. He talked about this sort of like new

America-Israel-Arab alliance. He wants to call it the Abraham alliance. Abraham alliance. That's very implicitly giving credit to Trump. So I don't know. It seems like the BBC's political wins. In order to give him the political cover to talk about Trump in that speech in the United States House of Representatives,

He then, he had to do some stuff for Biden. You know, he said some nice things about Biden ahead of that. And I was wondering, like, is he going to get to the Trump part? And he did, of course. He gave Trump a lot of credit for the Abraham Accords, which they're not really a thing. They're trade deals. Yeah, they have trade and arms sales. Last question on this. So,

There's a lot of reporting that Vice President Harris was in a different place on Gaza policy. And also, I think you could hear in her voice when she gave speeches and talked about Gaza that she just did a better job of showing empathy for the suffering of the Palestinian people. The question, though, is...

She's now the nominee, but Joe Biden is still the president. And how much space do we think she has on Gaza policy to change things in the administration or to publicly put pressure on Netanyahu to change course? Do you have any hope that she can put some distance there? I think there's an opportunity for some space here. I think she's got permission to do that for a couple of reasons. One is Joe Biden, who is a remarkably empathetic person generally, didn't

was not able to nail the empathy around Palestinians for whatever reason. It was a tough thing, and he got off on the wrong foot with this. And Kamala Harris, I don't know how distinct her policy is. She was always quicker to be critical of things that the Israelis were perceived to not be doing correctly than Biden was. But she did seem to be more empathetic. But the bottom line is Biden is aware that his efforts to influence the Israelis has not worked.

So now he, I think that gives her permission to say, why don't you try it your way? Why don't we play good cop, bad cop? I'll be semi good cop. That's Joe Biden. And, and you can be a little bit more bad cop. Maybe we'll see. Um,

I would like to think so because there are, first of all, the election may depend on it. There are a lot of voters in Michigan and Wisconsin and some down ballot races across the country that will depend on us having a more nuanced approach to the Middle East. And like you said, she's got an opportunity for a reset. She's got an opportunity for a new set of first impressions. And she's got a lot of backing from a lot of young progressive sorts who would not normally be Kamala Harris supporters, but are at this point.

who will probably say, hey, we really like you. We want you to be the next president of the United States. We want you to make amazing history being the first woman, the first black woman, the first South Asian woman. But we do need something else. Just like the union leaders go to these candidates and say, we need something in exchange. They might go and say, we need you to take a different approach to this thing. And frankly, we're 40,000 deaths in. It's time for a different approach. Yeah, the scale of human suffering is hard to overstate. I mean, the war has been raging for nine months.

There's 40,000 people believed to be dead. I suspect that number is way higher when you start digging through the rubble. The number of people who have hepatitis C or other diseases, the number of children that are being born way underweight, the number of kids that haven't been in school for a year. I mean, life is hell in the Gaza Strip. And that's the worst part. The thing you just said about the number of kids who haven't been in school.

Benjamin Netanyahu said in his speech to Congress and to the Senate, we want Palestinians to grow up, you know, understanding we should live in peace. Right.

Fantastic. That should be, that should be applauded. How does that happen? It means people actually have educations. They're in schools. There is nothing worse for, for creating, uh, your enemy than people being unhoused, being in a refugee status, being hungry. Uh, you know, when you're not, you're not getting close to your cause. No, I think we can share in Benjamin Netanyahu's cause that the people in that region should respect each other's, uh,

you know, self-determination. We're not going in the right direction on that one right now. God, no. Yeah, Stan McChrystal, the famous head of Joint Special Operations Command, his insurgent math was for every innocent civilian you kill, you make 10 insurgents. So that math does not bode well for Israel in the future. Ali, all right, that's it for the show today. Thank you so much for being on. We got a short version? What happened? No one better to talk to about this speech to vent with.

Couple things, though. First, I would encourage everyone to tune in to your excellent show, Velshi, which airs 10:00 AM Eastern on Saturdays and Sundays on MSNBC. Also, you have a great memoir out, Small Acts of Courage. It's fantastic. You and Ben talked about it in more detail on Pod Save the World. If folks want to hear more, people should buy that.

And I'm told you're appearing at this day-long MSNBC Lollapalooza thing in Brooklyn on September 7th with Jen Psaki. What is that all about? It's on September 7th. It's this event where there are going to be more people from MSNBC showing up than I thought worked at MSNBC. All of us are going to be there. We'll be bringing our own sort of special flavor. You know, I do the Velshi Band Book Club where I interview an author of a band book every week. So I'll be doing that. So for those of us who like to watch us and want to get to know us a little bit,

Come on out. Excellent. And if you're in New York, check it out. And tickets are on sale at msnbc.com slash democracy 2024. Thanks again. And John and Dan will be back with a new show on Friday. Tommy, thanks a million. I love it. Finally, we're giving you guys a little treat at the end here. We are going to put in an excerpt from Inside 2024, which is a subscription show. This is from...

that show, a friend of the pod series, Inside 2024, you're going to hear Alyssa Mastromonaco and Dan Pfeiffer discuss who they think are the most viable picks to be Kamala Harris's VP and whether or not Trump regrets choosing J.D. Vance to be his. You can sign up at crooked.com slash friends to hear the full episode, plus Dan's show Polar Coaster and much, much more. Okay, here's Inside 2024. Welcome back to Inside 2024. I'm Alyssa Mastromonaco. I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

Buddy, we're back together. We're now at the part of the outline where it says banter. So that's good. As if we don't need, as if we need reason to banter. Yes. Dan, you remember in 2020 when you and I hosted the Pod Save America series, That's the Ticket? Well, we had so much fun doing that series that we wanted to continue that topic and bring it to you, the subscribers.

In light of Trump's selecting J.D. Vance for his presidential ticket and Vice President Kamala Harris becoming the Democratic presumptive nominee, today we're talking about vice presidential candidates. Their impact on the campaign and the surprising ways onboarding a new candidate can be a bitch for staffers.

I just want to note for just to bring the subscribers behind the scenes that bitches in all caps in this outline. There's bitch. Caroline has Caroline has things to say. Speaking of Caroline, moderating this discussion today is producer extraordinaire, her words, and my favorite crooked producer, also her words, Caroline Reston. Caroline, take it away. I'm honored to be here. I feel like you guys didn't really fulfill the promise of the premise of banter, but

Listen, these things come together organically. Yeah, I can't fake charm. And it's our second podcast together of the day. Yeah, like we can't do that. So it'll come. I promise. We'll give all the charm. Okay, fine. Well, you better be charming as fuck. Which is also in all caps, but yes.

Okay, you guys have been really looking forward to this episode. Biden has officially dropped out of the race. Like you said, VP Kamala Harris has secured enough support from the Democratic delegates to win the party's nomination. Everyone is wondering, who is Kamala Harris going to pick for her VP? Fife, what do you think? Hmm.

I haven't really fully formed my thoughts on this, but if I had to place a wager today, on this day, July 23rd, I would put money on Mark Kelly. Me too! Mark Kelly or Josh Shapiro. Even though I do not feel normally, having been in the middle of VP-ness since I was like 28 years old,

Picking someone based on their state I normally don't think matters. I do think that he has such high favorability in Pennsylvania that he could potentially deliver the state. But Buddy, like Mark Kelly to me, he's got the easiest bio to explain, right? In like three words. It's like hero, astronaut, husband of Gabby Giffords. Yeah.

Yeah, and veteran. Yeah, hero. That was my hero. Oh, hero. But also has been through two incredibly difficult elections in a two-year period in Arizona, a state that he could potentially bring back on the map. As of the moment before Biden dropped out, there was a general consensus that Arizona had been out of reach.

For the Biden folks, I think Kamala Harris brings you a little closer there and Kelly can make that state very competitive again. I think he has gravitas. He's he'd be great. Now, I will say that when I was at the Republican convention, we were walking around. Humble brag. Oh, what a brag that was. I was in Milwaukee with a bunch of mega dudes. Yeah.

Well, let me tell you, I bumped into Charlie Kirk. Whoa. I saw that. I didn't actually bump into Charlie Kirk. I thought it was on. Oh, somebody else then. Tommy probably did, actually. We were kind of sort of undercover in the sense that no one knew who cared who we were. And Tommy was walking around wearing a red 0% liberal hat. Yeah.

But we struck up a conversation. And by we, I certainly mean everyone but me. Struck up a conversation with some delegates who are walking. And we asked them who they thought, who they most feared or did not want Kamala Harris to pick, were she to become the nominee. And they said Josh Shapiro. Really? That's who they were afraid of.

And you know the other bonus to Mark Kelly, Democratic governor. So if he did win, a Democrat would be appointed to his seat. And then in North Carolina, Rory Cooper is also on the list. And if he were to become the vice president, at least for the end of his term, Mark Robinson, who is the nut job who's running to be governor, would finish that out. But that would really not really matter because he's either won and become the governor or...

He would be governor for two days. And Dan, correct me if I'm wrong. Josh Shapiro's won statewide three times and Cooper six times. Yes, I think that's right. Cooper's won governor's races twice in very tough years, right? Both in 16 and 20. Shapiro's had pretty easy elections. Certainly his governor's race was quite easy. Won by double digits twice.

Mark Kelly had very tough races. Andy Beshear, also on the list, had tough races. And we are ignoring, of course, as we should not, Gretchen Whitmer, who is on lots of lists circulating, although she has said that she does not want to be vice president, but many people say that before accepting the job. Selina Meyer told us in season seven of Veep that you cannot have two women. Yeah.

Well, I was just going to say, so first of all, someone didn't read the research. Josh Shapiro has won three statewide elections. That's what I said. That's what she said. That's what I said. She said. And I said, maybe because Caroline, I don't want to sound like I'm fucking reciting your outline. Okay.

This is the charming banter that was in the outline. We promised we delivered. What's going to be the timeline for Kamala on choosing a vice president for her ticket? Because we are on a time crunch.

I mean, look, I think the sooner the better, the faster that they can find someone, I think, and get the campaign like really sort of underway is great. I think realistically, Dan, what do you think? I think probably 10 days, two weeks. I think it's the I think they're probably on a timeline similar to Trump's announcement at J.D. Vance where it butts up to the convention, probably either the Friday announcement.

Before the convention or the weekend before the convention? I mean, look, they're being, the vetting team is being asked to vet these people, none of whom have ever been, to my knowledge, vetted for vice president before, to do it in a record amount of time. Right. Who are those poor people who have to just like dedicate their lives for the next 10 days to going through Kamala's old Twitter pages? Well, it's Eric Holder is running the selection committee, right? Yeah, they're using the attorneys in his law firm to do it.

Right. So it would be attorneys. And so these people are going to be asked to give a massive amount of financial paperwork over tax returns going back 10 years, at least voting records, voting records, you know, medical records, mortgage, you know, and house, you know, more, they're more, they're, they're deeds to their house mortgages, um,

transcripts potentially. And just the compilation of that stuff takes days, if not weeks normally. And we don't, and then it takes weeks, if not months to review that. And they're going to do all of this in two and a half to three weeks is wild. Yeah.

Anyone who has had like a prosecutorial background or has been a lawyer, they're going to look at all the cases, cases that they have, uh, cases they've tried. That's going to be a real challenge for Josh Shapiro too, because as the attorney general of the state of Pennsylvania, the, sorry, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, there will be, uh, every case that his, uh,

office tried is somehow related to him and could potentially be a problem. And how you review all of that is sort of impossible to fathom to me. I want to pivot to J.D. Vance, which feels like honestly such old news at this point. Something I was thinking about is obviously Trump made this decision before he knew Kamala would be the top of the ticket. My first question before we kind of dig in a little bit more is, do you think there's any part of his campaign that might regret having chosen someone like J.D.?

J.D. Vance has proved to be a dud thus far. Like, I think he is the most boring. His speech, he was in his home state of Ohio yesterday and like couldn't get a laugh from the crowd. And one interesting thing I just want to flag, it seems like the Trump campaign and or RNC is writing in applause lines with like a hold for applause and then the applause is not happening, which I think is a funny thing to watch on television. Yeah, I think they very much regret it.

it was a, I think Tim Alberta, who's done some really great, from The Atlantic, who's done some really great reporting on the Trump campaign, basically, and was pretty embedded in their campaign, and so he has a real sense of how they think about things. He said that this was, the J.D. Vance one was a pick of,

Gluttony almost. Humorous, right? Where they believe they were winning. So because J.D. Vance offers literally nothing. Nothing. To the ticket, right? He doesn't help bring a state into play. He doesn't solve a political problem, right? You know, in the past, you often will pick someone who addresses a political weakness. Like, for example, Bill Clinton, when he was running in 1992, was deluged with scandal. And so he picked Al Gore, who was...

known as the most ethical man in the Senate, right? Gore then had to pick Joe Lieberman for the same reasons because eight years of hanging out with Bill Clinton had damaged his reputation for ethics. Um,

Sometimes you pick someone because they address a they help you with a constituency with which are weak like Trump pick Pence because Trump had a real weakness with evangelical voters who are sort of the base of the Republican Party. Pence had was was one of their favorites. So he picks Pence. J.D. Vance does nothing. He doesn't help with the constituency group, doesn't help with the state. He doesn't address the political weakness. He is the only thing he can possibly do is be a good governing partner in the sense that he is a true MAGA believer or at least is a.

uh, voracious convert, the MAGA convert who will execute the agenda in office, sort of like Cheney did for Bush. But in terms of helping him win this election, he is a big fat zero. It is shocking to me that they could have picked a woman and didn't like whether Katie Britt, Nick,

Nikki Haley. I mean, I don't think Trump could ever swallow the idea of Nikki Haley, but there are so many women out there who could have appealed to suburban women from like Virginia to Idaho for Donald Trump, who as someone with a,

reputation as a sex pest would have like inoculated him against that. I just think that, you know, abortion being such an issue, having a woman stand next to you does nothing but help. I think even if she's not pro-choice, it's still like, see, she agrees with me. So it was such a total missed opportunity. I think for him to have not picked someone, Ivanka ish, who like wasn't his actual daughter. I never really considered a woman either. Like,

Like none of the short lists was like, there was some at least the phonic and Sarah Huckabee Sanders talk early on, but it seems that the only true finalists were, uh,

Some combination of Doug Burgum, J.D. Vance, Marco Rubio, and maybe Tim Scott, but probably not. But the Marco Rubio one is another one just ultimately left on the table because their theory of the case, which they're very clear about, which is why they probably never considered a woman. I think that was a political error. But the reason why is they view their path to victory as winning over male voters who have abandoned Biden. Young black voters, young Latino voters, conservatives.

young white male voters. And JD Vance helps with none of those things. And Marco Rubio could have been a huge asset with some segment of Latino voters. And even if it only helps on the margins, this is a close race. JD Vance is a pick you make when you think you're going to win a landslide. Right. So on that, you guys kind of already detailed some of the big reasons why

a candidate would be chosen. The state they come from, gender, the demographics that they do well with. How in the past, not just in this election, how often has a vice presidential candidate actually moved the needle in any significant way? I think Sarah Palin in a bad way.

but not at first, right? I mean, Fife, you remember when McCain announced Sarah Palin, there was panic in the house because the enthusiasm that he had been lacking was suddenly front and center. I mean, then she did her Katie Couric interview and it all went to shit and then it, you know, she was impactful in a way that was really negative. But I think

You know, I'm not sure. I feel like in some ways, John Edwards helped John Kerry, but I don't think he was hugely impactful. I mean, John Kerry had this sort of like...

statesman-y Brahmin aloof. And, you know, John Edwards was this like very scrappy, handsome, young family fought poverty. You know, why are you laughing at me? Sorry. No, I'm just laughing. The John Edwards family man did not age super well, but in the moment. No, no, no, no. Did not. I'm not saying that in 2024, knowing what we know, but at the

At the time, we got a big boom coming out of the announcement going into the convention. It was like, you know...

I went to a John Edwards rally, which is why I'm laughing. Were you four? I was pro. I loved him back then. I was like, he's hot. He knows what he wants. He's a liberal. I was so stupid. But also, if I recall, we lost North Carolina. You did. Yeah. I mean, it matters on the margins only. In a do no harm. And the vice president, the vice presidential race is probably the moment in American politics with the greatest chasm between how much is talked about and how much it matters.

Like you can fuck it up, right? If you fail the readiness test, like if, because this is the one big decision you're making in the campaign. And so voters will judge you on how you made it. And it's kind of pass fail, right? So it's like, it's like a pass fail course. If you do, you pick John Edwards, even Mike Pence, Kamala Harris, you pass, maybe a little benefit here, nothing huge. But if you fail it, you fail it spectacularly. And John McCain was one of the few people to fail it. And time will tell, maybe Trump failed it. We'll find out.

That'll wrap up the preview of Inside 2024 and our show today. Thank you so much again to Ali for joining the show. And if you want to hear more of Inside 2024 or any subscription content, go to crooked.com slash friends.

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Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our show is produced by Olivia Martinez and David Toledo. Our associate producers are Saul Rubin and Farrah Safari. Reid Cherlin is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis.

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