Harris Hits the Airwaves
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Book your trip at ococean.com. Welcome to Pond Save America. I'm John Lovett. And I'm Simone Sanders-Townsend. Simone, welcome. I am happy to be here, me in my USA shirt, you know, because... You're taking patriotism back. You know, bringing patriotism back one piece of clothing at a time.

On today's show, Kamala Harris and Tim Walz launched their first post-convention campaign swing to rural Georgia. Donald Trump, not to be outdone, is selling digital trading cards of himself. And Jack Smith is back with an indictment remix. Indictments, Alito's version. With me to discuss it all is the one and only Simone Sanders Townsend, friend of the pod, co-host of The Weeknd on MSNBC, former press secretary for Senator Bernie Sanders, and of course, former senior advisor and chief spokesperson for Vice President Kamala Harris.

Simone, it's so good to have you back. It's good to be back. This is what a week to be here. I mean, there's not much to talk about. Every week.

For the last 60 days has been a good week to be here. This is actually very true. As we are recording this, things are kicking into high gear for the post-convention campaign push, or at least the Democrats are. Kamala Harris is getting ready to start a bus tour in southern Georgia later today. We'll talk more about that in a minute. And Tim Walz, on his way to join her, stopped at the International Association of Firefighters convention in Boston. Let's take a listen. When Donald Trump was president, he blocked overtime benefits for millions of workers. He opposed efforts to raise the minimum wage. This is the big thing.

One of the goals of their project 2025 is to screw the middle class, making it harder for workers to collectively bargain, allowing employers to drastically cut overtime or eliminate it.

slash taxes for the ultra wealthy by imposing a national sales tax on the rest of us. When Republicans used to talk about freedom, they meant it. Not anymore. These guys over there, they want government to have the freedom to invade every corner of your life. So let me tell you exactly what Vice President Harris and I will do when we get elected.

Then President Harris will sign the PRO Act, making it easier for unions to organize. Lowering taxes for working families and finally making corporations just pay their fair share. They're doing fine. Sisters and brothers in labor, it's time for you to step up to the plate. Simone, before we get to analysis of the speech, I want you to know that I was also campaigning with firefighters. I don't know if you can see this, but...

I did some campaigning of my own at the Minnesota State Fair with these shirtless firefighters. You know who had a photo like this? Amy Klobuchar. Amy Klobuchar. I know. I know. That's what gave me the idea. I'm like, this was in Minnesota. We love the firefighters. Shout out to the firefighters. So this was a really pro-labor, kind of a throwback type of speech. What's your take on the campaign's approach to the labor vote? Look, I think...

I think it's important, first of all. Labor is very important. Labor looks different, I think, than a lot of ways that we talk about it. It would have you believe the way that we talk about it in general is that people who are union households

are older white men, but there are younger members of unions. There are women. There are a large amount of people of color. I mean, SEIU is one of the largest unions in the country made up of majority working class people of color. So I think the union, um,

vote is important because working people are important. And I mean, look, in an election where we're talking about the economy, people's chief concerns about the economy are about affordability. They're about households. They're about paying their bills. That is directly connected to how much money they make at work.

So, the unions, they absolutely matter. I think that the approach that the campaign has had is an earnest one, right? I don't feel like that Governor Walz or Vice President Harris are putting on a union outfit, if you will, to go and campaign with the union folk when they go to these union halls and do these events.

Their whole careers, they have been very tied to labor, to union workers. In California specifically, we talk about the firefighters. I mean, in California, Vice President Harris and the firefighters were like this, okay? There were many times when I worked for the vice president that I was on the phone with the head of the firefighters union in California because they needed something. So it's...

It's authentic. And I frankly think it's a breath of fresh air because my father was a union worker, if you will. He was a member of a union. He was a government worker for years. And my grandfather was a pool reporter for Union Pacific Railroad. And so I take grave offense to this idea that labor is something that and union workers and union households are something that were like off the table for Democrats for a while because they didn't know how to talk to working people. So I like what I'm seeing from the campaign.

Yeah, I feel like there's two parts of it. One is just reminding like there's, you know, some concern that we're losing some of these younger men and if they are members of a union or if they are middle class or working class, just to remind them what the stakes are. And I think so for those union members, this is just a speech to sort of remind like there's a walls is very direct. Like, forget what he's saying. Right. Forget the kind of populist vibes that Trump and Vance are trying to put out there. Look at the actual record.

There's another part of the speech that was really interesting on health care.

Walls goes into a part about Obamacare and he says that may not apply to you personally because you're covered through your union, but it applies to your families. It's about what your families need to and sort of using Tim Walz as not just a tribune of labor, but that as a stand in for the fight between Donald Trump being out for corporations and the wealthy and the Harris campaign being out for the middle class and

What's your take on Walls as a messenger more broadly? They do seem they are sending him out.

to speak to various unions? Yeah, I mean, he has literally hit the union beat. Now, this could just be a function of everyone's conventions, if you will, and large gatherings. It just happens to be around this time in August when these conventions are happening and the meetings are happening. So that could just be a function of, you know what, it works for Governor Walz's schedules. Folks would like to see him, and that's where he's going. Because I don't think it is

Only the governor, because the vice president has done some union events as well, and she heads the labor council. I like Tim Walz, not just because he is a native Nebraskan like myself, although he's from the country, I'm from the city, but we all bleed Husker red, honey. It's honestly, but it's all country to me. You city people, you East Coast, West Coast folk, y'all, I don't expect y'all to know any better.

I know. Yeah, and I don't. This is why we need people like myself and Tim Walls out there to show y'all a different view of the Midwest. Sure. Tell you what's real. Take you to a runza.

as he did when he was in Nebraska. Look, I think Governor Walz is somebody that knows how to talk to people. And if you juxtapose that with Donald Trump's running mate, who seems kind of quite uncomfortable in settings with regular folks, it is a boon to the ticket. I also think he's someone with a really good record, not just from his time in Congress, but since he's been a governor. People want to make him out to be some kind of blazing, radical progressive, but I mean, like...

Minnesota is one of the fifth best places in the country to do business. Some of everybody's favorite corporations, okay, where we all go in and spend our money and the place with the little red circle all the time is headquartered in Minnesota. And so they can't be doing that bad.

Right. And so Governor Walz can just speak to a bunch of different pieces. And he was head of the Democratic Governors Association. To me, that means he understands having to allow the different members of the association do what they need to do for their constituents in their states, but also knows how to pull people together. They could come from very different walks of life, obviously different parts of the country or

under one umbrella and one agenda, which was what he did as the head of the Democratic Governors Association. So I just think he makes sense and he's fine. He's a nice guy. Who can hate Tim Walz? Who?

I was at the Minnesota State Fair and there was something really sort of discordant, which is both there's the Democratic Party has a booth and Republican Party has a booth. Democrats hand out pro-democratic buttons and the Republicans hand out pro-Republican buttons. But then there is this I think it's a PAC or some organization. They have a never walls booth and they were handing out never walls booths.

First of all, which is I think like, I don't know. It was like you're it sort of was like broke the like there's sort of like an unspoken rule at these kinds of like events, which is like you can be political, but don't be an asshole. Yeah. These people have obviously never been to a fair. OK, right.

There is something about Walls where that like the idea of anybody hating Tim Walls is so strange and makes you seem strange. And here's a guy that was head of the Democratic Governors Association. Here's a guy that was actively campaigning for the job of vice president. But he has this aw shucks vibe that kind of makes it seem like this is all just happening to him. And there's just nothing more potent than a politician whose ambition isn't

on the surface, right? Like he's clearly an ambitious guy. He's, you know, he's- - He's a governor. - He's a governor. He's a governor. He's a member of Congress, became a governor, wanted to be vice president. But you see him and you just think, wow, it's so cool that this has just happened to him.

That he just happened to cross this. But I think it's like a powerful part of his appeal because the ambition on a lot of politicians, Democratic and Republican, and on J.D. Vance, it just comes across. He just reeks of it. You know, J.D. Vance is what we like to call in the streets a pick-me. He's like, oh, pick-me, pick-me. He gives strong pick-me energy. I don't think...

I don't think there's anything wrong with ambition, but I do think that there's something wrong or just not relatable when you come across as just like not being a good person, not being uncomfortable in just regular settings where we're supposed to be able to do normal things that we all do as just humans. And Tim Walls doesn't give that off. I also,

think there's something to be said about the fact that there were lots of people that wanted this job, i.e. the job of vice president, and Vice President Harris chose him. And because of how she felt in the conversation, the rapport that they had, that they built up in a short amount of time, and also that he was just very straight up and forthcoming, is my understanding, about the fact that he did not have desires to be president. That is something that's like, Tim Walz

It's like, look, this is a job I want to do. I'm here to do it. I'll be good. We're going to have a good time. You can pick me or you can not pick me, but I'm here. And she was like, we'll take it. I love that. Let's do it together. Exactly the right thing to say. And to be clear, I love, I'm not one, I think, I think it's like, there's a,

Voters tend to be anti-ambition, especially with women, especially people that aren't white guys. I love ambition. I think the more ambitious, the better. But it rubs some people the wrong way. They kind of they like politicians who seem to stumble into it. I don't think it's I don't think it's right or wrong, but it's just it does seem like that. That is part of the part of I think the why why Vice President Harris is.

has been received so warmly is because she's been able to evade some of the misogyny that would have come along with a woman actively seeking the job. Well, look, I think, honestly, I think maybe a little yes, but also believe that it, to me, I find it a little misogynistic for folks that have been sitting around like,

Well, if Joe Biden can't be the nominee, we're going to have to have an open convention because who is going to do it? As though the vice president hadn't been working as the vice president for the last almost four years. And then when Joe Biden does get out, says, okay, it's my vice president and forcing people to either go against now he and his vice president or just go along with the get along. They went along with the get along and she actively went out there and earned the votes and the delegates.

People then are like, oh, wow, I didn't know she was doing X. Wow, she really is good on the trail. Oh, my goodness. People like her. What do y'all think she's been doing? He's like, what do y'all think helped shore up Roe versus Wade in the aftermath when Roe fell? Who y'all think helped shore up the activists and advocates and the state legislators across the country? It was Kamala Harris walking around doing the tour. So to me, there's just a little bit of a...

Why weren't y'all paying attention to her? And some of it is the nature of the vice presidency. Nobody, I mean, you cannot tell me what a vice president did every day the last four vice presidents. Maybe Dick Cheney, and that's a whole nother story. But you generally don't know what a vice president does every day. But when push came to shove and folks were like, well, where is the bench? It was like people looked

over the vice president. And part of that, I do think, is rooted in a little misogyny. There were people that felt like she wasn't ready, right? That she couldn't rise to the occasion. And I'm glad that Joe Biden didn't... One of the best things Joe Biden ever did is...

After he put his statement out, put out another statement that says, I endorse the vice president, because it eliminated the chatter. And now we have, people have been able to see, frankly, now that they're deciding to pay attention, what Vice President Harris has been doing. And so it's not a shocker to me that people like her, because if you've been paying attention to where she's going and folks she's interacting with, they do notice.

like her. People have just been caught in this doom loop of, I think, her first presidential campaign and then that one interview with Lester Holt. And I'm just kind of like, can we not elevate? Can we not see full pictures? And maybe not. Well, I do think, yes, I think all that's true. I do think some of it was an overcorrection

What's been so, I think, first of all, she's been put in the position of going from being the vice president to being the standard bearer of the party in the fight to save democracy that happened in 48 hours. And she rose to the occasion in such an extraordinary way that even if expectations weren't met.

artificially low, and I agree, I think they were, she's still doing extraordinarily well. I mean, the way this campaign came out of the gate, the way she kind of took this mantle and rose to it, I think that that is an extraordinary achievement, even if she wasn't underestimated

I will say I do think it is the combination of the 2020 campaign being one in which she felt like she had to run away from her biography as a prosecutor straight into being vice president, which is a job in which you kind of subsume your identity in a different way, led to a kind of, I think, undervaluing of the Kamala Harris stock.

Yeah, I mean, I just, I think about, I remember, obviously we all remember 2020. I remember that primary, the 2019 primary, and her campaign started with, first she came out, she was a progressive prosecutor, and some of the activists were like, no, you're not. What is progressive prosecutors? You're not as progressive as, look at all these current prosecutors when literally she was a prosecutor before all those other people were prosecutors. It's how we, when she was a prosecutor, she was progressive. But that initial brushback,

Her campaign recalibrated. And then they went through all these different reiterations. But frankly, what we are hearing from the vice president now is where her campaign ended. She ended on this riff about, you know, I prosecuted, you know, I locked up a

rapists, sexual predators, fraudsters. I know a criminal when I see one, let me read you his rap sheet. That's what she used to say about Donald Trump at the campaign trail in the end of 2019. Fast forward to 2024, she comes out of the gate in her own campaign now, and she says, I was a prosecutor. I took on fraudsters and sexual predators and

I know a perpetrator when I see one. I know Donald Trump's type. So it is not a huge divergence. I just think it was a message, frankly, that she found too late and that she has been able to hone over the course of some years because it is authentic to her. And there is something to be said about an authentic campaign message. And the problem with one of the many problems with Donald Trump and J.D. Vance is that they just lack authenticity.

It's like you don't, they would love to paint the picture that you don't know what Kamala Harris and Tim Walz believe. But I think on a number of things we do. I think there's some questions about her policy, which people don't get answers for when they roll out policy positions. A month ago, Joe Biden was a Democratic nominee. Like, let's be serious here. But what does Donald Trump believe? Does he believe women have the right to their own reproductive freedom? I highly doubt it because he brags about, you know, put the judges on the court that overturn Roe. But he wants to tell us that

he's the best for women. J.D. Vance says he believes in all families and the child tax credit, but he skips the vote. So it's just kind of like, I feel like the people that are fraudsters here and really not showing us who they are, are not the Democrats running for president. Yeah. When Biden stepped aside and endorsed Kamala, people were circulating this ad

where Kamala, it was, you know, the very kind of gravelly voice voiceover saying Kamala Harris, she's the anti-Trump. The people said, wow, that ad could run today. That's where she would have ended up had she made it through the primary. Had she made it through the primary, she would have and it would have infuriated a bunch of people that because she would have if she had become the nominee in 2020, the day she was the nominee, that is the day she would have become a prosecutor again. And and it just and it just never happened. So

The campaign is also out with a new ad that is pretty different in tone. One goes after Trump on Project 2025. The other touts Harris's housing policy. Let's start with the Trump ad. And she's got two new ads out. Here's the first.

Donald Trump's back, and he's out for control. I would have every right to go after them. Complete control. I will wield that power very aggressively. And he has a plan to get it. Detailed plans for exactly what our movement will do. It's called Project 2025.

A 922-page blueprint to make Donald Trump the most powerful president ever. Donald Trump may try to deny it, but those are Donald Trump's plans. Well, revenge does take time. I will say that. And sometimes revenge can be justified. He'll take control. We'll pay the price. I was a really interesting ad. I was surprised by how much it's about Donald Trump himself.

and Donald Trump being in control. What did you make of it? I think that it is important to not allow Donald Trump to, for someone who is running against Donald Trump, you cannot allow him to assume the passenger seat, right? To say that, oh, you know, it's really all these other people and not just him. He really doesn't know what's going on. He's a doddering fool. Because I actually don't think that that's the case to a certain extent, right? He is very much so.

As you know, who the president is matters and who the people around the president are matter as well. And they can either affirm a president's best intentions or they can affirm and reinforce their worst intentions. So who the president is matters. And this ad squarely puts that in the forefront.

Project 2025, the work to put it out there into the public ethos, it has taken a hold. And I know sometimes there is not enough time in a campaign to educate the electorate about something. You can either...

Depending on where you are in an election cycle, you can choose to take your time educating the electorate, but that could be at the expense of earning their vote. On Project 2025, it is something that the electorate, young people, older people, folks that don't do politics every day, they are bringing it up on their own. Melissa Murray and I were at this nail shop in D.C. We were filming for a project at my nail shop in Washington, D.C., and we had three young women who were there with us, millennial black women, two from North Carolina, and unbelievable

Unsolicited brought up Project 2025 in the suburbs of Butler County, Pennsylvania, talking to an intergenerational group of black women. Unsolicited brought up Project 2025. People don't know about what's in every single page, but they know that it is ominous. They know that it is bad and that is not good for government and democracy. And they know that

The people that worked for Donald Trump wrote it. And so it's hard for them to divorce him from this plan. And frankly, I think the only reason he wants to divorce himself from the plan is because people now know about it. A couple of quick things before we go to break.

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Conclave is a gripping thriller from Academy Award-winning director Edward Berger, starring Ralph Fiennes, Stanley Tucci, John Lithgow, and Isabella Rossellini, only in theaters October 25th. The Pope is dead. The throne is vacant. Conclave is an unprecedented and illuminating glimpse into the inner workings of the Catholic Church as it follows one of the world's most secretive and ancient events, selecting the new Pope.

Conclave is only in theaters October 25th. Visit conclavethefilm.com to get tickets now.

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Therapy is great. It is, John. It is helpful for learning positive coping skills and how to set boundaries. It empowers you to be the best version of yourself. And it isn't just for those who've experienced major trauma. Everyone can use therapy. Just great to talk to someone. I texted my therapist. I said, I'm coming back after this election. Either way, win or lose. She's like, who is this? New number. Yeah.

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So you could imagine a version of a Project 2025 campaign that would say Donald Trump is bad because of Project 2025. Here's what Donald Trump will do. Here's what Project 2025 does on abortion, on the middle class, on taxes, on the environment, on LGBTQ issues. But this ad goes the other way. It says Project 2025 is bad because of Donald Trump. This is not an ad for people who are

undecided on Donald Trump's character. It's an ad saying you should be worried about Project 2025 because of your Trump fears. Yes. They are essentially, again, they're essentially, it's an ad that essentially says who the president is matters and they have to put Donald Trump in the driver's seat. Otherwise, he's some passive person and if he's that passive and other people are pulling the strings, then why does it matter if he's elected president or not?

To your point about character, people know how they feel about Donald Trump. Even folks who are these quote unquote undecided voters. Democrats know how they feel about Donald Trump. Independents know how they feel about his character, right? Republicans even know how they feel about his character. The question is, do you want to vote for him? And when you ask voters, like, okay...

These are your choices. There are voters still out there right now that are saying, there are some people that are saying, I don't know if I'm going to vote. Some will say, I don't know if I'm going to vote for Vice President Harris. And then if you push and you ask, you say, well, are you considering voting for Trump? And some of these younger voters and what we would call persuadable, like non-registered, but persuadable, non-registered voters, they will say, oh no, I'm not voting for Trump.

It's not Trump. I'm not considering Trump. He's crazy. This is what I've heard them, you know, they've told me when I'm out there talking to them. So it is important to put Donald Trump in the driver's seat because that is what is going to push somebody over the edge to cast a ballot for Vice President Harris or against Donald Trump. If you allow him to be this passive figure, um,

It's not motivating for someone that may, in fact, be on the fence, not saying that the fence is do I vote for him or not? Do I vote for him or vote for her? The fence is am I voting or am I staying home? Or am I voting but not checking the top of the ticket? That makes sense because then if you're somebody out there that's like, I'm not happy with my choices or I've been unhappy with the Democrats, but I don't like Donald Trump, you might think an ad that is more focused on the actual substance of Project 2025 regardless.

of Donald Trump's particular failings might be better at a different kind of undecided voter, a voter who's actually undecided between Trump and Harris. But seeing this as saying, here's the menace Donald Trump poses, that's why you have to come out and vote for Harris. This to me says that the campaign understands that there are people

there are people that would be considered base voters or, and sometimes in polling, again, they refer to these folks as, um, unregistered voters, i.e. people who they're not, they're just not registered, but like they are primed and ready to be, to participate in the, you know, the,

in the act of democracy and voting, there are people that are still not all the way convinced that they are gonna go out there and vote for her. And so this to me says that they understand that it is not in the bag as they have been saying, but this is them putting their, literally their money where their mouth is to put these ads on the air and target and on digital. So I think it's really, really smart.

And it is, this is a critical, critical time. Early vote ballots are going out first week in September. And then people are going to start voting in places all over this country by mid-September. You can't wait and can't hope that people are paying attention and seeing all the things. You got to take it directly to them where they are early and often. And I could bet you that's what we're going to see from the Harris campaign and also the Trump campaign in this homestretch.

Yeah, I think that also speaks to what they're doing on housing as well. Here's a sample of a new ad that the Harris campaign has just put out. For most of my childhood, we were renters. My mother saved for well over a decade to buy a home. I was a teenager when that day finally came, and I can remember so well how excited she was.

Today, corporate landlords buy hundreds of houses and apartments, then turn them around and rent them out at extremely high prices. I will fight for a law that cracks down on these practices. We will end America's housing shortage by building 3 million new homes and rentals.

Yimby is across the country rejoicing. I'm going to quote the campaign's release directly. Vice President Harris is running to lower costs and end the housing shortage while Donald Trump has a long history of exploiting tenants as a landlord, upholding racist housing practices and giving handouts to wealthy real estate developers while working to jack up rent for working and middle class Americans.

The way that was written also to me spoke to the same dynamics that you're talking about, right? Like basically specifically talking about racist housing policies, specifically talking about how Donald Trump is a slumlord. It sounds like something going after more disaffected voters rather than the kind of suburban...

The women we're hoping to bring into the fold with, say, abortion. Why do you think they're opening so hard on housing as opposed to, say, other places where people are pointing to prices as being a huge problem? I think because housing is the top issue for people across the country. This is why I love focus groups and I do not care for polls.

Because in the focus groups, as you know, you get to ask follow-up questions and people tell you what they're really thinking. In the polls, people say their top issue is the economy. Okay, yes, but what about the economy? Affordability, housing, the rent is too damn high. It is unattainable for some people to buy a house. I've been saying this. We bought a house. I'm in the house we bought right now, okay? I'm enjoying this bill. We bought a house last year and I made good money. And even I felt broke. And I'm like, well, damn, if I feel like this, what?

people, it is unattainable. The interest rates are like 7%. And I would argue that this is also a function of these

for lack of a better term, that the vice president had been doing when she was number two on the ticket still. She did an economic opportunity tour where she was talking about what the Biden-Harris administration has done to shore up businesses with a particular focus on small businesses and businesses of color, black businesses, and has been doing these tours on college campuses. When you're out there talking to people, housing comes up and you cannot...

Talk about the United States has had the greatest recovery of all the G7 countries. GDP is up. Unemployment is hitting record lows. All of that is true. But what does GDP mean for someone in North Omaha, Nebraska, who cannot afford their rent?

The rent keeps going up and up and up and they have to move because they cannot afford to live where they had lived. And so this is something that speaks directly to people's current lived situation. Now, I would also say, though, one of the things that the campaign has not done as much of that I think they need to start doing, and I'm just, I don't know why, but she is a sitting vice president.

They have been doing things about housing right now. I mean, when Marsha Fudge was the HUD secretary, they took on the price gougers directly. Marsha Fudge took on the appraisal folks that were doing the bias appraisals directly. Like they put rules in, they did an assessment and they put rules in place to mitigate some of that. There was a bill in this current Congress, the last two Congresses, particularly about housing.

It didn't pass in this Republic. The Republicans, I don't think have even put it on the floor. So this idea that like these are, you know, once she's elected president, these are some of the things she will do. Well, she's vice president now. And I think that's a very fair statement to make. And the Biden-Harris administration has been doing things on this issue. But they got to talk about both. They acting like the lady is just out here like she a governor. She's not a governor. She's sitting vice president of the United States of America. I do think, yes.

I think pointing to places where Republicans have stopped policies that would address housing prices is a good thing to do. I think the reason that I would say that probably they're not doing that is because if you ask people, they feel like nothing's been done. Things aren't getting better. As you go around taking credit for policies that may have mitigated this issue in certain places, what they're really seeing is a generational failure to build, a generational failure to keep housing prices low. I'd be more worried about the fact that this is a promise that

I hope we do build 3 million new houses, but that's going to take time. And really... Well, she's paying four years, which I also think is important, right? She didn't say she's going to build...

you know, by the end of her first term. So that's a, you got four years to get 3 million homes. And, and, and what a goal. Hope we get there. But the, the, the bigger issue is that getting housing prices, what you're trying to do is build enough supply. You should be going after, uh, uh, uh, landlords that, that, that screw people and all the rest. But the,

The actual challenge is building huge amounts of housing to make up for decades in which we failed to build enough to either stop the rise in prices or slowly bring prices down. So as people's incomes rise, housing takes up a lower share of people's income. That is a very long-term project. There was a reason Obamacare, it took, what, five or seven years for it to become popular, right? I do worry that this is one of those areas where

people are going to be looking for signs of success. And it's a tough, it's a very tough problem. Well, when you think of this a lot like the actual infrastructure projects, I think that there is, we don't have to go down a rabbit hole about like binomics. You know, I'm one of the people that was like, well, just stop, stop just calling it a thing and just say what you're doing. We'll need to put a cute little label on top. Nobody knows what that is. And then they stop putting a cute little label on top and just talk about the machinery and

But you can see a bridge being repaired. Like when I fly into LaGuardia in New York, I can see which parts of LaGuardia have gotten the love. You can see when there is construction being done on your bridges, right? Those are things that people can see and touch and feel. Building new housing is something you can see. Now, I do think this is why public-private partnerships are important. And

You know, if I know the vice president and the people around her who have been, you know, helping advise her on these policies, as I do...

Using the engaging private business into what public good is something that the vice president believes in and is a model that can work. It's what she did with the root cause of migration work in the areas called the Northern Triangle that no one should refer to as the Northern Triangle anymore, El Salvador, Guatemala, and Venezuela. She pulled in the corporate entities like Nespresso and MasterCard

who had equities in the region to see what they could do about some of these particular issues. I think housing is a place where that can happen. And look at T.D. Jakes. He is, I interviewed him last year. He has a public-private housing partnership program

effort, if you will, that he's doing in Atlanta, in Georgia, that is something that has been a couple years in the making, but he has the money to do it. And so this is just not on the government. Our problems that this country has are absolutely vast. And if we just always look just solely to the government to fix them as though the companies who have been made rich and wealthy off the working people in this country who have helped put the money in their pockets, if the

they don't have any onus to help fix some of the ills that they have exacerbated, then we're going to be in a deeper hole. And there is some work that companies can do. And that is a very populist type message. And it's a message that I think resonates with folks, maybe not the wealthiest people in this country, but definitely resonates with those working class folks that we started talking about, those union, those labor folks who feel that viscerally. And if that is where this policy is going, you can mirror those two.

It can be very, very successful, but it will take time. This is not going to be overnight. Yeah. It's also just, yeah, look, I love a politician standing in front of a construction site cutting a fucking ribbon. Cut a ribbon, honey, yes. That's a new bridge behind us. That's a new embankment. That's, you know, this is a new train station. This is a new light rail. I love all that. Housing is tougher. It just is. It's just a tougher issue because a lot of the problem, right? Like this has become, I think, a kind of debate, an interlep debate over the last couple of years.

is the abuse of environmental rules, sort of the high cost of building in places like California, the NIMBYs trying to stop every piece of construction. I mean, you can't get insurance. Let's just be honest. In places like Florida, because of the climate crisis, places like Florida and someplace in California, you cannot get insured if you would like to build. And the London-breathed mayor of San Francisco has this line, which is America is not a museum. And we need to...

We need to build and we need to build a lot and we need to cut. And so some of this is about a difficult conversation about regulations, many of which have done good, right? I mean, you know, the rivers don't catch fire anymore. That's cool. But, but sometimes, but, but people have been abusing environmental rules that were put in place for good reason to prevent a lot of housing construction. And it's not just look, going after corporate landlords, going after private equity, uh,

putting in place protections for renters. These are all great things. Rent control can be a very good thing, but these are all band-aids on a problem, which is about supply, which is why I think it's so awesome to hear. Gavin Newsom, when he ran in 2017, talked about building 3 million new houses in just California. Talking about building millions and millions of new housing is really important. I think you're right that you have to take credit for it

by taking credit for the projects because it's going to be a very long, this is not just a three or four or five, it's a 10, 20 year project. You know, as you say that, it makes me think about the kind of promises that candidates make on the campaign trail. And one of the lessons that I took from the campaign in 2020 was that there were things that we as a campaign at that time said

And I don't know if we did enough work to bridge the gap between what we were saying and then all of the different pieces that were necessary for that to happen. So it's to the point where now you talk to some, and I'm not talking about college students. I'm talking about millennials. The oldest millennials this year turned in like 43, 44. Okay. The oldest millennials are turning 43. You talk to millennials who are like, are you voting in this election? What are you going to do? And they're like, look,

I haven't seen anything on my student loans. And I'm like, does it matter to you that this administration instituted the policy and then the Supreme Court blocked it? And they're like, I don't know anybody whose student loans have gotten forgiven. Meanwhile, I know people who have. They didn't pull my ticket, but I know some people who did. But there are people out there that don't. And there is one could argue like.

This administration has been punished, if you will, for how the courts have blocked what they have tried to do. There is a gap between the understanding of what ... Not even an understanding, but just a gap between the policies that were instituted and how the people feel about what has happened and what they see. In this election, it is going to be really important, I think, to be very actual and factual with the voters about what it is that you are trying to do and how you are trying to go about it.

Which is why if you really take a look at the, at least the housing proposals that I've seen and then what we do know about the price gouging proposals,

They are specific in some ways and then nondescript in others. But one of the specific ways is about utilizing attorney generals and mobilizing them within their roles with the authority that they already have to hold companies accountable, to hold corporate landlords accountable. That is a doable thing, right? And I think it's a...

It's a function of the fact that the vice president was an attorney general. So she's like, well, I know what they can do. Let's use them. Nobody, we need to marshal the attorney generals, make the, put them to work. So there is some of this, like you want to be aspirational because that's what voters, you know, that's what voters want. People hope does well, as you know, you know, people want,

Joy and hope, it does well giving people something to vote for, something to look forward to. They want to be inspired, but they do not want to be inspired at the expense of their current lived reality. And so they're like, yes, inspire me or you're going to fix my problem. And what you put forward to them does need to be aspirational, but also tangible. What does the vice president say? You got to be able to see what can be, but I'm burdened by what has been. Right. Yeah. No, look, and by the way, like, man,

Can Kamala Harris as president deliver on her pledge to build three million new houses? That's a great problem to have. And I really want us to have it. And frankly, if people if people as long as it is a promise that they have a path to keeping, I'm glad she's making it because I think it also just sets a really ambitious goal. And hopefully people I think one one challenge, right, as to what you're saying is people are pretty cynical about what what administration can achieve. So I hope people are also optimistic.

I think it is very hard to convince people that government can really help people. They're skeptical. They're skeptical. But that is, look, government cannot do it on its own, but government should work for the people. I mean, the people literally elect the politicians, the elected officials. And so it is on the government, the elected officials, the presidents, the members of Congress, the governors, the mayors, the state legislators, right, to figure out how to

put things in place for the people that put them in office. And some of that is public-private partnerships. Some of that is, you know, fixing the regulations. Some of that is taking on the people who are exercising corporate greed. But you got to have a plan. And I'm at least excited that we are continuing to have conversations about those plans, at least on the Democratic side of the aisle. I am kind of

I asked, I've been guest hosting this week and I, and I asked one of the, um, I had Tolu Oluwununipa on who's the White House Bureau Chief for, uh, the Washington Post. And I said, do you think there's a double standard as it relates to, you know, Donald Trump and Vice President Harris? Like, do you think that's just a double standard? All this conversation about an interview and the policies. It's like, Donald Trump does a bunch of interviews and he does not tell the truth. And I don't think he has a coherent policy. And the ones that he has espoused, like they don't, the math is not mathing, but,

We're rewarding people for like a lack of just speaking without a lack of specificity and facts. And on the other front, you are picking someone apart for some specifics and some facts. So it's just kind of like, where is the middle ground? And Tolu was like, that is the rub. That is the job that we have to try to do. And I'm like, okay, agreed, whatever. It sort of goes to say, it's...

This this idea that you measure accountability by number of interviews that a candidate does. I mean, she should do the. Oh, yeah. I'm for of course, you do the interviews. But like the goal, the question is, is this campaign effective?

being being honest about what its plans are? Is it speaking the truth to the voters about what kind of administration they would try to run? I think there's an unequivocal yes on Kamala Harris and Tim Walz, unequivocal no on Donald Trump and J.D. Vance. They do tons of press. They'll do they're doing. That is true. Donald Trump is doing more interviews. Some of them are, you know, phone calls to beleaguered Fox News hosts trying to help him.

But, you know, J.D. Vance did a round of interviews with the Sunday shows. Yeah, he did the Sunday shows, yeah.

But those are opportunities for just for for the for the the the Trump vans campaign to get away with as much as possible in their ongoing efforts to deceive the American people into getting their votes. The Harris-Wallis game is telling us what they'll try to do. Now, there are probably tough questions they would face about how can you achieve these things or or, you know, here are some questions coming from your left flank. There's tough questions about Israel and Palestine. That's the job.

I don't know. I just, I kind of feel like, I'm like, are we all,

we all existing in the same context here? Are we on two different planes? Because this discourse would literally have you believe that this lady has not answered one question from anybody in the four years that she has been vice president, that she is not out here gaggling on the side of her plane. I agree that they need to sit for an interview. But a month ago, Joe Biden was a Democratic nominee. It's not like this is mid-September and they haven't spoken to anyone. Donald Trump travels on his plane, has reporters on the plane, and does not talk to them.

Literally does not talk to them, doesn't answer any questions. And so I want us to, yes, hold everyone accountable. But we need to be, I just think we have to just raise the bar for ourselves as a media apparatus and as people that want to get the information out and get questions answered. Because some of this is like, we're not making sense on some of this. It's not adding up. We're looking like unserious people.

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Let's talk about what Donald Trump has been doing while Harris and Walz are barnstorming the country. Today's big themes are Bidenomics, accusing Kamala of faking her engagement numbers, attacking Judge Mershon for the gag order, and attacking Jack Smith, plus congratulating himself on getting Tulsi Gabbard and RFK Jr. to endorse him. As of 12.30 p.m. Eastern today, the top truth social feed was this video.

50 all new stunning digital trading cards. It's really something. These cards show me dancing and even me holding some Bitcoins. Purchase 15 or more of my Trump digital trading cards and we'll mail you a beautiful physical trading card. It's really, I think, quite something. Each physical trading card has an authentic piece of my suit that I wore for the presidential debate.

And people are calling it the knockout suit. I don't know about that, but that's what they're calling it. Purchase 75 of my Trump digital trading cards, and you will also be invited to join me for a gala dinner at my beautiful country club in Jupiter, Florida. I'm keeping my Trump digital trading cards at the same price of $99 each. Go right now and collect your piece of American history.

So I'm going to put my piece of Trump suit right next to my little chunk of the Berlin Wall. How we know it's a real suit? That's what I want to know. Like how? Who believes this is the actual suit? Who believes this man cut the suit up? So six months ago, I would have said, wow, the threat of imprisonment sure has sharpened Trump's mind.

And even in the in the weeks and months that followed, it seems like it seemed like, yes, he's an undisciplined menace, but he was trying to win. He put in place campaign staff that was better than his previous campaign staff. He showed his version of discipline after that debate. That seems to be out the window. A campaign that wants to win a candidate that wants to win is not posting this kind of shit.

A campaign that wants to win is staying on message. What's going on here? Somebody had to edit that video. Like, think about all the things that had to happen before that video got to the point. And is it still Dan Scavino that's hitting publish on all these social sites? Like, someone, Donald Trump, had to film it. He

He did a voiceover, honey, and then filmed it. Somebody powdered him up and combed the hair for the footage. And then they had to overlay the Bitcoin situation on top. And then they put the music track behind it. And then they had to compress it properly in iMovie or wherever they edit these. Sure. You know, like this is, when I first saw this, I'm like, what is going on? This is not serious. But then I remembered that the grift for Donald Trump has been consistent.

And so he has a pattern of, you know, putting these things up. And because he has a cult-like following, and I think cult-like is the only accurate way to describe it because cults

There are folks that support him that will literally do whatever he says, whether it is march on the Capitol or give me your money for the Bitcoin card. And because of that, he has a consistent way to raise money in an unorthodox manner that we don't know where this money is actually going to. Well, there was an op-ed recently about...

that talked about how if you really take a look at some of these line items within the finances of the Trump campaign, there's like a black hole of money that's just being siphoned off to somewhere and we don't know where it's going. What is it being used to do? It's just like a black hole, just a money slush fund pot. What is going on with the money slush fund pot? Well, maybe it's funding his legal bills. Maybe it's funding other things that we don't know about. So this is, the grift for Donald Trump is consistent. But

It has nothing to do with his campaign. And the fact that, again, multiple people conspired, if you will, to put this video together and then get it out there to the world means to me that

Again, Donald Trump is not in the passenger seat of his campaign. He is in fact in the driver's seat. Because if Chris LaCivita and Suze Wiles were actually in the driver's seat, I highly doubt that there would even have been the resources to make this video. But Donald Trump is in the driver's seat. People cannot forget that. They're not these well-to-do aides chugging him along, going to pull him over the finish line. No, he is the conductor of this orchestra.

He is the main character in his movie and his problems he brought upon himself. And if he does not win this election, it'll be because he lost it. Yeah. So they tried to do some kind of a message event at Arlington National Cemetery, though members of his staff seem to have gotten to kind of an altercation, trying to drive a message about the Afghanistan pullout. He's been doing interviews. He went on Dr. Phil. He went, did Theo Vaughn.

Let's assume there's a tide race. If you're your own evil twin, what would you be advising him to be doing right now? Well, the staff wouldn't be getting into an altercation at Arlington National Cemetery. I just want to back up and note that the worst day, the worst day of...

My time at the White House, and I think everyone would say the same thing, was the day that those 13 service members were killed in Afghanistan. Everyone who worked at the White House remembers where they were when that happened. I was on a plane with the vice president. We were coming back from an Indo-Pacific trip.

And we went and we made a stop at an unannounced stop at an Air Force base to stop and have time to speak with service members because of what was happening in the world. And so it is to take that very harrowing and again, the worst day of my time in the White House and to then put it in squarely political terms, because that is in fact what was happening. I was just shocked to see it. I don't know. I just, I was shocked to see it.

My evil twin cannot advise Donald Trump because it will require him to be disciplined. My evil twin deals with discipline. It would advise him to be strategic and want to take advice. And what Donald Trump has shown us, because when people show you who they are, we should believe them. That's what Dr. Maya Angelou said. He has shown us that he believes he is his best friend.

political advisor that he believes he can run the, like, if he's listening to his instincts, that's what he should do. Yeah, the aides want me to do this, but I'm doing that. And I,

you can't, you, you cannot corral a person like that. It just doesn't work. That's one of the worst kind of people to work for. That would be a candidate I would quit on because you, and you, but the matter of fact, that'd be a job I wouldn't even take because you figured that out in the first sit down, honey, you had your sit down, you ask your questions and then you figure out, Oh, you are a fool that will not take advice. I, this is not the place for me. Uh, so, uh, one person you did work for is the vice president. She took advice. She took advice. Um,

So she's doing this Georgia swing. They're going to rural Georgia as part of that swing. They're going to do that sit down with Dana Bash of CNN debate coming up in two weeks. How does Kamala Harris prepare for big moments like this? What do you think the goal of this interview is? So I'm going to go with the goal of the interview first. I wonder if there is a new policy or something that is being unveiled. You know, when you when

when I will orchestrate interviews, not just for the vice president, but in any of the other folks that I've ever worked for, I would think about, okay, well, what can we drive? But especially when it was for the vice president, we need to be able to drive something so that you are not just coming to the interview being beholden to the news of the day. So is there something you want to announce, something you want to point to? I think maybe the thing that they're trying to drive is the fact that they are aggressively courting

Every vote, you know, she has, the vice president has said, she said during her convention speech that she essentially wants to be a, she will be a president for everyone. It's about Americans. And a bus tour like this, to me, says, and we are now walking, we want to walk it like we talk it. So,

This maybe this interview is an opportunity for her and Governor Walz to do that and talk about that engagement and the people that they've seen and then also be seen together because you cannot underestimate. I know a lot of people are excited about the history that is able to be made and and the historic nature of the vice president's candidacy. But there are also a lot of people in this country that will still say, I don't know if I want to vote for a black woman.

So they need to, the people need to see the vice president out there being a candidate for everybody and sitting next to her running mate, which is a white man, frankly, and to see the juxtaposition of, oh, look at this person that she chose to be her number two, who, I mean, oh, okay, maybe this is a thing. Is this where we are, America? It could be if you vote. So

I think that's what's happening there with the interview. I would argue that this should be the first of many because there should be many things to drive. And when you have many interviews, as you know, then you don't get hung up on one being like a high stakes situation because you have many things lined up.

So perhaps we're going to see the vice president do not just this television interview, but maybe you'll see a couple of print interviews that then drop some days after with journalists or columnists. Maybe she's calling into one of the major radio shows, doing something on NPR. All of these things to flood the zone in her and her own voice, separate from whatever she says on a stage at a rally. When it comes to how she prepares, she...

I think the formula that she developed when she was a prosecutor is the formula that she took with her when she was in the United States Senate as she prepared for the hearings, for example. And that's definitely the formula that I experienced that we used in the last campaign when we prepared for the first vice presidential debate and the formula that we used when we were in the White House that first year. So she is someone that wants to be very clear about what it is that she wants to say, the contours, where she wants to go. She likes the mocks.

but also just wants to be anchored in just what does she want to get across? Because debates are not about the two people on the stage or the couple people on the stage and the moderator and whoever might be in the room. It's about the people at home. And so she...

She viscerally, I think, understands that. And it's my understanding that she had already been in debate prep because remember, the vice presidential debate when she was number two on the ticket was supposed to be much earlier. And so she had already started debate prep. And the team that was prepping her then is the same team that is prepping her now. They just retooled the prep.

And so she is, I think, well-versed in already what obviously the Biden administration was doing and what the Biden policies would be. Right now, I think it's mirroring the two between what she is saying she would want to do, what the Biden administration has. She has to defend her and Joe Biden's record, but not to a fault. She has to look to the future. And how can you ensure you're doing that on a debate stage, but also standing next to someone who is,

wants to rattle you, wants to get you off your rocker and will just say whatever. And you know, you can't get into, you don't want to be in a position where you're in a complete back and forth with Donald Trump. But I think she would love, her team would love one of those moments like that vice presidential debate when Mike Pence tried to interrupt her and she's like, I'm speaking. We were in the back like, yeah, she,

She did it. She did it. Where are you on muted versus unmuted mics? Unmute the mics. Like, what is this mess? Unmute the mics. These are adults. Why are we muting people like they're in kindergarten? I was never a muted mic proponent.

I think that Donald Trump's crazy needs to be seen. I'm also not a proponent of deplatforming Trump. I'm somebody that believes you need to play his sound. People need to hear him. I believe he should be fact-checked, but the best thing that happened to Donald Trump is that he was deplatformed because now...

What he's saying is not making its way out into mainstream. Because when it does, and people do cover it, he often backtracks. He walked back what he said about a bloodless, right? And what happens if he doesn't win. He's tried to walk back what he said about Roe and women and IVF and abortion because he's seeing the reaction and the reception. Heck, he even tried to walk back what he said about the vice president not being black. That ain't what you said.

But because it was covered, it forced him to recalibrate. And so Donald Trump is someone that benefits when people feel as though like, oh, he's too terrible to cover. This man could be the next president of the United States again. Cover him, play his sound, unmute that man's mic.

Now, Kamala Harris is in Georgia. She's campaigning in rural parts of Georgia. Quentin Fulks talked to Playbook this morning about this strategy. It feels like this is a and John and Tommy talked about this a bit on Pod Save America yesterday. But it feels like this is two things happening at once. One is trying to drive the margins down in rural parts of the county, but also trying to say Georgia is in play in part because we can run up the numbers with black voters in places like

Atlanta a signal that they are not going to accept this argument that there is a weakness among black voters. Do you think Kamala being the nominee has changed that? What do you think's happening? I think her being the nominee has opened up a newness, right? And one could argue, oh, she's the incumbent vice president, though. So how can she be new? But

She is new for a lot of people in the campaign trail. This just feels like a different campaign and that is to her and Governor Wallace's benefit. What is happening in Georgia, frankly, is also what they are doing in other places across the country. It's what anybody who has ever won statewide, who is a Democrat, who represents a diverse state, which is many states across this country.

has done, is you have to go into the places and spaces where people might not be usually primed to vote for you, or you don't usually win those counties, but you need to close the margins. And frankly, that's what Obama did in 2008. That's how he won. Okay, he closed the margins in some of these spaces and places.

People talk about California like it is one huge city party from Mexico all the way up to almost Oregon. But to be very clear, there are very rural parts. There are rural parts of California. Kamala Harris has one statewide...

multiple times in California. And Quentin Fulks, who obviously was one of the architects of Senator Warnock's win in Georgia. So this is something that Democrats absolutely have to do. And I would also note in places like Georgia, but also in places like North Carolina, there are black voters outside of the city.

There are black voters outside of Metro Atlanta. There are black voters in some of these rural counties. Quentin Folks is from one of these rural counties. There are other voters of color. In Georgia specifically, it was black voters that helped deliver

Georgia for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris in 2020, but it was also AAPI voters and Latino voters in the suburban counties and then also in some of these rural areas. And so that's who they are going to need to talk to if they want Georgia to continue to be competitive. Would you put Tim Walz on Joe Rogan? No. Okay. I wouldn't, but he should go on Howard Stern. I would put him on Howard Stern. Okay. Howard's great. Joe Rogan's problematic.

No, for sure. Hey, listen, for sure. For sure. I'm just trying to win. I'm just trying to win. I don't care about anything else. I don't care about anything else. The people that are probably listeners of Joe Rogan, there's some crossover with the Howard Sterns of the world. But at the end of the day, there is always this idea from our Democratic friends that are like, oh, you gotta win the white working class vote. I'm like, what is that? Because Democrats haven't, not even Bill Clinton won the majority of white people. I asked Tad Devine the last time I saw them. I said, did y'all win white

And he said, no, Tad Devine was one of the pollsters for Clinton. He said, no, we didn't even win white people. OK, so Bill Clinton didn't win the majority of white voters the last time he was on the ballot. And so this idea that if you just do one more podcast over here, do one more thing over here, do one more thing over there, you're going to win. You're going to finally get back and win the majority of white voters. It's not happening. I'm not trying to win. I'm not trying to win the majority of white voters. I'm just it's a game of inches. It's a game of inches. I'm just trying to get some of these young men.

Go to Howard Stern, okay? The young men are on Howard Stern. They're also on... They need to do Travis Kelsey's podcast. Didn't they just... Great. Do some of the younger, hipper things that the... Maybe, maybe I would love to see a little sports center action, okay? A little ESPN action. Football season is coming back up. Are the people going to get out on the sports rotations? Those are some of the things, okay?

And then they also, they need to, you know, they should come talk to you. We want them to come talk to us on the weekend. Yeah. Okay. Come talk to us. Come talk to you. Come talk to us. Okay. Come talk to us. We're so friendly. We're so friendly. We got questions. Mm-hmm. Simone Sanders.

Thank you so much. So good to see you. Thank you. It's always a pleasure. I appreciate our hat twinning. And I just want to know, I'm wearing my USA shirt because, you know, J.D. Vance said that, you know, women that haven't birthed children, they don't care about America. And as a woman that has not birthed a child, I feel very patriotic.

You're wearing your trust black woman hat. My trust cisgender white gays hat is at the cleaners. So I could not wear that, which is probably for the best. Everybody check out the weekend on MSNBC and a week from Saturday on September 7th. Simone is going to be part of the lineup at MSNBC live colon democracy 2024. It's a Lollapalooza of progressive nerds at the Brooklyn Academy of Music.

Tickets are on sale at msnbc.com slash democracy 2024. Simone Sanders Townsend. Thank you so much for being here. My husband will be pleased. We'll be displeased if we left the town. Look at that. I know, right? He did a good job, right? Please, please. Union on the mic, but billionaire on the finger. We love Mr. Townsend. It's so good to see you, my friend. Good to see you, too.

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