EP. 79 INDIANA - Delphi Murders: The Kegan Kline Transcript
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Warning. The following podcast is not suitable for all audiences. We go into great detail with every case that we cover and do our best to bring viewers even deeper into the stories by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects. Trigger warnings from the stories we cover may include violence, rape, murder, and offenses against children. This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned.

Hey everyone, this is part three of the Delphi murders. If you haven't listened to part one and part two, go back now and give it a listen because you might be a bit confused. But just as a refresher, in 2017, two teenage best friends named Abigail Williams and Liberty German were found murdered after going on a hike near the Monon High Bridge in Delphi, Indiana.

Now, Liberty German took a video of her attacker and in it, you can hear him ordering the girls "down the hill." But despite releasing this video and audio to the public, the identity of this man is still unknown. And then, in December of 2021, nearly five years after the murders,

Investigators released information that would shock everyone following this case. They released the name of the fake social media profile, Anthony_Shots,

that had been in contact with Liberty German shortly before she was murdered. The profile was of an attractive male model with a lot of money and luxury cars. But the real man behind the account was not the man in the pictures, but of 27-year-old Kagan Klein. ♪

Now, investigators would raid Kagan's home where he lived with his father Tony and they would find half a dozen devices that were full of child pornography. And Kagan wasn't only using these fake profiles to receive child porn, but to also distribute it to other users across various apps. And upon this discovery,

The state of Indiana opened up their largest child pornography investigation in history. But it turns out, Kagan wasn't the only person that was using this account to exploit underage girls. Investigators concluded, based on the speech patterns in the chats, that someone else living in Kagan's home was also using this account. And the only other person that made sense was Kagan's father, Tony Klein.

Now, in the last episode, we talked all about Tony Klein and his violent past, which included but was not limited to stalking children, harassment, domestic assault, and the abuse of children.

But what we will be reading from today is a transcript that the Murder Sheet podcast uncovered of Kagan's interview with investigators after his arrest in 2020 for the child pornography charges. And after listening to this episode, you will see that investigators have strong suspicions that Kagan and his father Tony are connected to the murders of Abby and Libby.

This is the story of the Delphi murders. The Kagan Klein Transcript. I'm Courtney Browen. And I'm Colin Browen. And you're listening to Murder in America. This transcript we are about to read is from Kagan Klein's interview from after his arrest in August of 2020.

We have made slight edits in terms of filler words and some sentences that don't pertain to the case. In addition, the names of Kagan's friends and people he communicated with are redacted. So you will often hear us say "friend 1" or "friend 2" or "girlfriend 1" and "girlfriend 2". Now, this interview is conducted by Detective Vito of the Indiana State Police and Deputy Clinton.

So I will be reading their parts and Colin will be reading Kagan's. August 19th, 2020. Kagan Klein is finally arrested on the child pornography charges and is brought into the police station for questioning. As soon as they get in here, I'm going to head out, but I appreciate you being cooperative and quiet and easygoing on the way up here. Yeah, no problem. I know you guys deal with probably all kinds of crazy people.

Well, there are some, but there's a lot of good people too. Right. But yeah, I'd say on the list of eventful people that I've arrested, you're way down at the bottom as far as eventful. It was kind of a non-issue, which I mean is good. Right. Yeah. They said that they're going to let you take off your mask when you talk to them. Are you comfortable? Are you okay with that? I'm fine with that. Yeah.

Okay, they said they're fine with that too. Yeah, I'm fine with that. Alright brother, let me get these off of you, that way I can put them in my truck and I don't leave them. Alright, I'll take that. Yep. Stand up. There ain't too many little notches left on these handcuffs. Yeah. You about need ankle cuffs for your wrists. I need a diet. You and me both. Just please don't take a swing at me while you're standing here. Oh no, I'm like the least most violent person.

Alright brother, if I don't see you again, hopefully I don't. Hopefully we get this all worked out. Thank you for being nice. Hey, no problem. Thanks for not being any trouble. Here's where Detective Vito and Deputy Clinton enter the interrogation room. Kagan? Hey. I don't think I introduced myself. I'm Detective Vito with the Indiana State. You can, if you're, yeah, you can take your mask off. Are we good to take off ours? Yeah. Yeah.

Um, like I said, I'm Detective Vito with Indiana State Police. This is Deputy Clinton. So, obviously, I know, you want to know what's going on today. Yeah. And so, we're going to help you and explain all of that, but of course, I have stuff that I have to do for my job and everything. Okay.

I'm gonna read you some stuff. I'm gonna give you a copy just so you can read it off as well. So we're at the Peru Indiana State Police post. I just want to make sure you understand your rights. It's August 19th, 2020 and it's about 3:41 in the afternoon. And again, I said my name is Detective Vito with the Indiana State Police and these are your rights.

Before I ask you any questions, you must understand your rights. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in court. You have the right to talk to a lawyer for advice before we ask you any questions.

and to have him with you during questioning. If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be appointed to you before any questions if you wish. If you decide to answer questions now without a lawyer present, you still have the right to stop answering at any time. You also have the right to stop answering any time to talk to a lawyer. The next parts, if...

Right. You understand that? Yeah. If you could just sign on that line. Right here? Yep.

And if you don't mind dating after your signature and printing your name underneath. I appreciate that. Thank you, sir. At this point, Detective Vito reads the charges that Kagan faces, which were two pages long, so I will spare you those details. I do want to make it clear that we've watched your previous interviews when this had come up in the past, right? Oh, so this is... okay. Okay, so we watched that. Right.

We understand what's going on. You understand what's going on now. Obviously, you have a problem. All the... Are you talking about all the stuff that was on those old phones? Is that what this is all about? The phones. So like I told that, I can't remember her name. She was like the, I don't know, something with the child division. All those are old videos when I was underage.

Well, and I want to make this clear too that we not only have watched your interviews, but we have personally gone through each device. Right, right. We've watched the videos. Yeah. We've seen the pictures. And I can tell you that you were not underage at the time, okay? Of all the underage girls I talked to, I was definitely underage for any of those pictures that I got from them. And that's not what the data we have.

On the metadata of those images. I mean, they're timestamped. Right. You know, when we take a photo, you know, when we take that phone, we get a lot of information off that. Right, right. Okay? I mean, this is...

It's been a little while, obviously, but. And a few of those charges, can I see that again so I can ask? Yeah, yeah. Which one were you thinking about? It was like, I don't know. I can't remember. I'd have to. Sorry, my mind's going crazy right now. Like, what is like child exploitation? What is that? Like, I've never been with a child before or anything like that.

Well, it's not necessarily about being with a child, but when you're on, um, is your kick chat 92. Um, this was on your iPhone. Um, when you're trading back and forth child porn images, that's exploitation of a child. Okay. And obstruction of justice. Um, and we're going to get into all of that. Okay. But I need you to understand why, why we're here, obviously. Yeah.

And I mean, the underage thing, that is just not correct. Right. Okay? Three years ago, you were not underage. Right. And you were in possession of all of that as well. Right. So I know even in your last interview, I mean, you have a problem. Right. And you said it yourself. Yeah. And I'm assuming you know that a problem like that just overnight doesn't correct itself. No, you're right. Right.

Um, I moved to Las Vegas and I tried to like completely change my life and yeah, and then, you know, fell on hard times, not having a good job and stuff. So I had to move back. But yeah, I mean, I had, haven't done any of those stuff since then. That was a real wake up call. When did you move to Vegas? Um, I'm not sure what. It was about two years ago. Well, no, I got back about three years ago, probably. Like,

I don't know, I think June maybe. Right after my birthday sometime it was like right after that. June of 2017? Yeah, about, yeah. You know, where are you currently living now? Like, where's your residence at? Uh, with my girlfriend. Well, like, I stay with her sometimes, but I mean, I just bounce around really. But I mean, she lets me stay there as much as I need to.

Okay, June 2017, moved to Vegas. Where'd you stay out there? I had an apartment. Did you live by yourself? No, I had a friend that I moved out there with. Who was that? Friend number one. He lived in Peru. Friend number one? Yeah, friend number one. Okay, what did you do for employment out there?

A lot of stuff, really. We had like a little medical marijuana business that we would do a delivery service with and stuff. A lot of money in that, isn't there? Yeah, there was. Yeah. A lot of elderly people, you know, they couldn't leave their house a lot and stuff like that. Didn't want to get around and stuff like that. What caused you to move back? I just couldn't afford it. I mean, rent was so expensive and just everything in general, just so expensive out there.

Yeah, I could definitely see it being more expensive out that way too. Oh yeah.

Um, and, and my goal today, I mean, we want to try and of course get you to understand everything that's going on. And I think there's some things that we need to clear up too. Um, in your original interview, I mean, obviously you said that it was a problem that you had. So you're, I mean, you're saying it was a pretty big wake up call and. Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, I never really had a problem with the police ever in my life.

And as for the child pornography stuff, I mean, you just stopped? Oh, yeah, definitely. Well, I mean, I realize, like, how serious it is. Like, you don't think about it when you're talking to a 16 and 17-year-old girl, and then you realize when the knocks come at your door, like, hey, shit's not a joke. Well, what we can do now, then, since, I mean, you haven't viewed it since then or anything like that. No. No.

Would you then give us consent for your phone? Yeah. Do you have any computers or tablets or anything like that? I have a computer in my room, but I mean, it's not really, it's real old, but I mean, yeah, I have one in there. Would you give us consent for that as well? Yeah, yeah, definitely. So how long have you been in Indiana back from Vegas? Like a year and a half, probably. Consistently the whole time or were you just bouncing around?

Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah, pretty much consistent the whole time. Um, and what, what phones do you have at your house? Just an iPhone. What room is that in? That first room. So are you on the lease at that apartment? No, I pay nothing. How do you pull that off? Well, I, she just lets me stay there really when, you know, when I need to.

And you said you have a computer there? Yeah. And then are you on... Is it just your plan with your phone or... Yeah, well, technically I'm not on a plan right now. I just have text now. Oh, so you're just using Wi-Fi for everything? Yeah, because I don't really ever, you know, go anywhere without Wi-Fi, so...

And what's your current phone number? I honestly don't know. I literally just got, I don't. You don't know your own phone number? Yeah, I know it's a 310 number. It's a Los Angeles number. I'm not sure. 310. Yeah, I'm not even sure. So you spent time in LA too? Yeah. Really? Oh yeah. How long? What'd you do out there? Pretty much the same thing, really.

The weed business? Yeah, yup. It's booming out there. I bet, I bet. So what did you do with your old phone that you turned in? I sold it on eBay. Okay, and that was a couple months ago, you said? Yeah. And who's your guys' internet provider? Um, AT&T.

And does your girlfriend pay for that too? Yeah, she pays for everything. Okay, so you went from Las Vegas to LA. No, I never really stayed in LA. I would just go there a lot. And what were you doing out there, you said? I would get our product and stuff there. So I'd go there like almost once a week almost. Was it your company or did you work for? Me and friend number one that moved out there. Together we started it.

You need like a license to start a company or how did that work? Technically, it's under the law of that. You don't have to get a license under the law. This is this if you're 18, it's gifting it to someone. So you're not technically buying it from us or anything. I'm not selling it to you. You buy a a monthly subscription and get that every month is like a gift. So that way you don't need a license or anything.

So if you had someone pay monthly, you give it to them. And because they're paying for the monthly subscription. They're not paying for the marijuana at all. So they're paying for the service. Right. And was this in LA or was this in... That was in Las Vegas. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. So after Vegas, then you said it just got too expensive out there. Where did you go from there? I went to my mom's outside of Young America. And that when you...

And that when you, how long did you stay in Vegas then? I mean, from that June to, I think it was like been about a year or so. The next June, well, the next like August or September, she got married in September. So yes, September. Okay. So August, September. Yeah. Yeah.

I came back really to marry them. And then I thought about it and I was like, well, I'll just stay here. You were... An ordained minister. No kidding. Yeah. So you married your own mom. Yeah, right. Wow, that's crazy. And so you just stayed with them then? Yeah, yeah.

How did you do that? Like, what did you have to do to do that? My stepdad works at a hog farm, so I work with him. So it was like, hey, if you if you work, you know, you can stay here. And I mean, I paid rent and stuff and it was a pretty cool job. OK, that's not too bad. Have you done any other weddings since then or? Yeah, I have done like two or three in Nevada and then I did hers.

Interesting. So then you stayed with mom living in Young America. Right outside of Young America. And then after moms, where did you go from there?

Um, well, really, I just started living, you know, sleeping with friends and stuff and then staying at girlfriend A's whenever I could. And for the past two years now, maybe? Well, no, no, I stayed with them until last August. So I stayed with them for probably about a year. And then, yeah, well, no, it was probably longer than August sometime right before the winter. Okay. So 2019? Yeah. 2019. Yeah.

And then you've kind of just been staying with... Yeah, with her and other friends and stuff in Kokomo. Are you currently working? I've been trying, but I do graphic design stuff. So like, I'll just get jobs whenever I can. I do a website called Fiber. I don't know if you've ever heard of it.

What computer do you use for graphic design? My phone. You do graphic design from a phone? Yeah, from a web, from an app on the phone. It's called Canva. You can pretty much do like literally anything you can think of that you can on the computer. Really? It's really nice, yeah. Huh. What's a typical project, would you say? Like menus for restaurants. I do that a lot because, you know, a lot of places would shut down because like...

Like what I want to do is like mom and pop businesses, you know, somewhere just try to get 200, 250 from them. You know, a lot of people charge a thousand dollars, you know, a thousand dollars for a website. I can do that same website for 200 bucks, you know. So you can even make their website. Oh yeah, definitely. Yes. Yeah. So not even just menus or anything. Everything. Yeah. All from an app. Yeah. Well, the websites are done. I don't know if you know, have you ever heard of godaddy.com? Yeah. Through that I do everything.

So, like you said, after moms, you were there from August to October of 2019. Girlfriend A, you've been staying with her. How long have you guys been together? I mean, you said you're together or you're not. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. For us, like since like last May, I knew her brother in high school and then we met on Facebook pretty much just talking on Facebook and then we hung out and yeah, but I've known her family pretty much my whole life.

Okay. Are you a car guy? Not really. Not really? Nah, I kind of grew up kind of. You grew up having to be? Yeah, pretty much. Why is that? I don't know. He has this fascination with work cars. So he'll buy a work car and then like he'll customize it. Two years later, he'll just get rid of it.

Like the car we have now, it's getting worked on. It was one of his work cars. He just gave it to us. What do you mean? Like a work car for like a... Because he works at Chrysler. So he'll just, you know, go back and forth. Just buy one car for work to drive to work and stuff. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Because...

He didn't want to put miles on his other cars, and so... Did you grow up working on cars and stuff like that, too? No, not really. Your dad does. I think that's right. Yeah, kind of, yeah. Motorcycles. Mechanic guy. Yeah, yeah. Then you said, right now, you're just looking for work. You're not doing anything other for work. No. So, something you had mentioned when we were talking about the child porn...

You said it was kind of a wake-up call when you were talking to these girls that were how old? The youngest I ever knew of was 16.

So again, and this is going to be important that you know, and I put it on the table and I've told you, I've watched your interviews before and I've gone through all of the phones. So, you know, from here on out, it's very important that you're 100% truthful. Right. Yeah. Because you've read the charges and you understand that this is significant. Right. Right.

And I have it all here and we'll go through it all. And for instance, you know, you had mentioned the exploitation thing. And I mean, right here in this chat, this kick messenger chat, which was on your Apple iPhone. Do you remember what your kick messenger name was? I don't even know. I don't even know. I'm not sure. I think it was my name. I think then maybe a number or something.

It wasn't anything else? No. I think maybe Keg and Klein won me. I don't know. My name, I think, is something. So your Keg Messenger accounts were all in your name? Yeah. You're 100% sure about that? Yeah. Okay. So did I mean, did anyone else have access to that phone? Uh...

No, I don't think so. No. I mean, I didn't have a girlfriend or no one ever uses my phone or nothing like that. And now we're going to take an ad break.

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The links can be found in our show description, but once again, that's microdose.com with code MIA. Now let's get back to today's story. Now, keep in mind, he says here that no one ever used his phone. He will contradict himself a little later.

And again, I know you had, you had talked about making fraudulent accounts. Right. And what fraudulent accounts have you made? Like on Instagram, I would make stuff like that to try to, you know, yeah. And on Kik? I don't think I, well, I mean, like I wouldn't send pictures of myself. But we're talking about the names and that.

I don't think so. I think it was always my name and then like maybe a number, something like that. Okay. And like I said, I want you to know that I have these chats sitting right in front of me. Right. So where did the name EmilyAnn45 come from? Yeah, that was just some random name that I made up. Yeah. Okay. So you did make that one. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right.

Okay. And tell me about, and again, I know you remember these things, okay? Because, you know, I've gone through all of this and I want you to be clear on that. Right. I mean, I've gone through every device, every chat, so I need you to be honest. Right. Okay? Because, I mean, the lying thing, it doesn't do us any good, right? I'm not lying. But I know you know the Emily Ann name, okay? Yeah.

I really, I didn't. I mean, it's been a long years. This is a pretty big persona that you built for Emily Ann. I mean, it is. What do you mean?

As in, you know, talking to other girls and talking to other people. I mean, Emily Ann obviously has a story behind her, right? Does that make sense? No, I don't know what you mean by that, no. What do you mean, a story? Well, we'll go through this first since it's right here. So this is a chat that was on May 15th, 2016, where...

to May 17th, 2016. And this is between EmilyAnn45 and GirlNumberOne. GirlNumberOne messages, "Hey, sup?" EmilyAnn says, "So what kind of pics?" GirlOne says, "Whatever you want." EmilyAnn, "LOL, age?" GirlOne, "13 to 16." EmilyAnn, "Oh."

Girl 1, what do you have? Then you send an image, which the first image is a Caucasian female exposing her breast. It had water across the chest and a caption that said, like this.

So we get down a little bit further into the chat and girl one says, LOL, like, I mean, what ages? Emilyann45, a lot. What about you? Girl one says, three to 16. What's your youngest? Emilyann says, I don't know, LOL. You send your first, your youngest.

They send a picture of a 13 year old. Emily Ann says, damn, she's hot. Any videos? Girl one says, yeah, lol, your turn. Girl one sends a video, sends a video or it was an image that depicted a Caucasian female wearing

And Emily Ann's response was, Damn, that's hot as fuck.

Yeah, I don't remember any of that, and that's me being 1000% honest with you. I mean, like, I told them the last time I did talk to a lot of girls. So, I mean, I don't... That was four years ago. I don't remember any of that. But, I mean, this is not... This is not, like, talking to another girl. This is an exchange of child pornography. Oh, right. Yeah. No, I don't remember. Likely a male. It's most likely two males. Right. Yeah.

Two female names on kick, exchanging graphic child pornography. Girls that are like five years old. What? Yeah, very young. Like, very young. So how could you not remember that, man? Yeah, exactly. That is not me. I would never. That is, I swear to God, that was not me. Then I need you to come up with who else had access to that device. Fuck, I don't.

that was four years ago i don't think anyone but i don't i i never like maybe 15 14 maybe but again no kids no definitely not there's a ton of it right and that's resulted in this charging document there is a ton of it right so who else could have potentially used these accounts and your phone i mean i stayed with the guy that i moved with before i left with him

But I mean... Okay, but we're talking in... This is 2016. That's what I'm saying. Before I move to Vegas. And I want this to be clear that this is the iPhone 4. The iPhone whose name was Kagan's iPhone. Right.

And you would have been 22 at the time and it was secured with a PIN code. And I mean, it's all your email addresses, your account information, your fraudulent account information, okay? Yeah, but what I'm saying is what if he used my Kik without me knowing or something? So he would have known your passcode? Right. Right.

Now, just for clarification, Kagan is saying that he would have never traded images of children that young. He claims that his preference is around 16 year olds. And whoever was trading the younger images wasn't him. Now, this was in 2016 and we know that Kagan was living with his dad around this time.

But Kagan is claiming that he lived with his friend in 2016. He also mentions the fact that his friend has children who are less than nine years old. I know, but I'm saying I stayed with him in 2016. Up until I left. I mean, I stayed with my dad a lot too, but I mean, I was at his house a lot too.

Did he have access to your phones? I mean, yeah, he could have. I mean, I stayed at his house a lot. I mean, we did drugs and stuff. I mean, I mean, I wasn't saying, I mean, I have no clue. Why would I be doing that around one of my best friends? You know what, what I'm saying? I mean, if I was going to do that, why? You can't, you can't really, don't try to talk your way around it. Okay. Explain it to me.

So if, so what if he was using my phone? You know what I'm saying? I understand that, but he would have needed your password to do that. Which that ain't, I mean, that ain't no big deal. I give my password to a lot of people.

So, who else have you given your password to? I mean, he was my roommate. I mean... You said a lot of people. So, who else? His friend that lived that would stay with us. His girlfriend. Okay, so you're saying that your friend's girlfriend. Who else? I mean, that's probably about it. Because she was over there too. Look, I'm going to tell you right now that you said in your interview, you admitted that you had a problem with child pornography. Okay? Okay.

Yeah, like I... Okay. Like I talked to a lady about it, yeah. And, yeah, and you owned up to it and admitted to talking to girls, even in your polygraph, that were under 16. They deliberately asked you, what if a girl told you they were under 16, and your exact words were, I would probably still talk to her. Right, but that doesn't mean 14 and 13 does not...

mean a little kid that's three or whatever you said. That's totally different. Kagan, listen. Okay, so he took your phone for this part. Then when you asked, quote, do you have any 9 to 13 fuck videos? Yeah, I didn't. Yeah, that is not me.

Because Emily Ann responded, I do. So you're telling me that you had 9 to 13 fuck videos on your phone. They were on your device. I had them on the device? That is not true. I'm telling you it's true. I have no clue about any of that, no. We've been through that phone. Right. We've been through all of the phones. But we're not allowed to lie to you about this. Right. That is on your phone.

And why would I tell them they could keep my phones if I have stuff on it like that? You didn't have a choice. They served a warrant. I mean, I have nothing to hide, so... But what I'm telling you right now is if I let Deputy Clinton have my phone... Right. And use my phone... Right. And I take it back, I'm going to know that there's 9 to 13 fuck videos on my phone.

Right, yeah. There's no way you didn't. Okay, so again, we need the honesty. I'm telling you my honest, I swear to God. So on May 17th, 2016...

Right.

That's the same conversation. I'm not, I'm saying I don't remember that, but I'm saying like, I probably would have said that. Yeah. I really honestly don't really remember talking to anyone because it wouldn't be like the same person. I wouldn't keep talking to the same person. You know what I mean?

Right, but when you're exchanging child pornography, that's obviously... And then you're exchanging Dropbox links that go to your Dropbox. That's a different story, too. What do you mean? I never wrote a Dropbox. Yes, you did. That I sent links for? What do you mean? But from your Dropbox account off of your phone, we have started one of the largest child pornography investigations ever undertaken in the state of Indiana. Well, you're...

Okay, but that's not me. A Dropbox account from your Dropbox link, right? It's a shared link, not from mine. There's no way possible. Yes. There's no way possible. Yes. I have a Dropbox, not that I would send nudes and shit through. Say a lot of people have Dropboxes. There are people that have communicated with you or you shared images through your Dropbox link.

We start looking at those people and it just freaking spirals out of control to this major child pornography ring.

And you even have it to the point where you're getting this child porn. You're sharing it with your Emily Ann account to your Kagan Klein Dropbox account. You can't tell me that the guy that you randomly lived with for a month knows your Dropbox password, knows your phone password, and then, you know, what's on your primary phone, and you don't know all the child porns on it? Kagan, come on. I really, I swear to God, no, she...

I guess child porn is technically anything under 18, but yeah, no kids like that ever. You can show me anything you want, that doesn't mean that was me doing it.

It's on your device. Okay, that happened. I mean, that's probably happened to a lot of people. That doesn't mean that... No, it doesn't happen. Okay, someone shoots someone and then they're with the person. That happens a lot. And then they get charged for it. And then they say that they killed them. That doesn't mean that they killed them. Yeah, that's why we asked you initially, is there anyone else that have access to your phones? Right, but that...

You told me how there's little kids and shit. I've never done that. So you're saying... Obviously, it's someone. Your story changes. Okay, I understand. Yeah, of course it does because I never did fucking stuff, little kids and stuff like that. There's a lot of stuff with little kids. Okay, that's not me is what I'm saying though. And we're asking you, if it's not you, then...

Look, I'm in your corner on this, but you have, you gotta come off of it. Who else? Who else? That's what I'm saying. He's the only person I was around. That's what I'm saying. Okay, so let's go from here then. So who else had access to your phone from 2016 to now? That's it. Him. Only him? Yeah, that's literally it.

Okay, so let me, I'm going to write this down. So from 2016 to now, friend number one had access to your phone. Yeah. Now, when did you live with friend number one? We moved to Las Vegas, but before that, I mean, I would stay with him all the time. You moved in 2017? Yeah. Okay.

Okay, but then again, you said you stayed with Dad, and you said you rarely stayed with friend number one. But I mean, I'd stay with him, but I mean, not like every day or nothing. Did friend number one stay with you at your dad's house? No.

Yeah, I don't need to hear any of that.

We have to go through it. This is your device, named Kagan's iPhone, with your passcode, with your account information. It doesn't have friend number one's information. I understand that. Okay? So, when girl number one sends an image of a Caucasian female, 7 to 12 years old,

Yeah, that's not me.

And you know what? We actually had some people look at that and they believe there are two people routinely speaking on multiple devices that are in your house because the phonetics are different. The phrasing is different. But this is over a period of time. We're not talking like this isolated or a week here and a week there. We're not talking about... We're talking about over a period of time. Right. Right.

Yep. I don't know. And again, you have to understand that. And I know you do. You're a tech savvy person. Okay. The phones collected GPS data. Right. Okay. Yeah.

You probably know pictures are embedded with GPS as well. And if I was doing that, I would not have VPN blockers and stuff like that. You know what I mean? Well, I'm telling you right now that it's connected to the house that you lived at with your dad. Right. Not in Vegas with friend number one.

Right. And you just said friend number one wasn't there. I mean, friend number one's been to my dad's house. He hasn't stayed in my house. Okay, but again, these are conversations that last over days.

Not just, and I mean, I'm telling you, if I had a buddy come over to my house and I said, here, here's my phone, and he's on it for, I mean, these are hour-long conversations. Right. Kagan. Okay, but if you're on drugs, you know what I'm saying. Like, I'm just saying there's...

I mean, we used to take drugs a lot together. What type of drugs? I mean, hard drugs, where... Like what? PCP, LSD, a lot of, you know, mushrooms. So you... I mean, you've done it. You...

You did that all the time or sometimes? I mean, a lot. Yeah. Are you still? When's the last time you used? Oh, forever. I mean, I haven't like hard drugs. I mean. Any drug. I mean, I smoke marijuana. Still? Other than that. Yeah. But other than that, nothing.

Is there any narcotics or drugs in the house at all? No. Or in the apartment? No, there's a bong. There's a bong, though. Again, I mean, you're really gonna have to do some more convincing than that. That a friend who randomly comes over and you guys get high together is taking your phone. No, I totally get where you're coming from. I don't think you do. I totally do like that. Honestly, sounds really stupid. I get what you're saying. You know, you're a bright dude. There's

There's no doubt. I would say most of the time you're probably the smartest guy in the room. Uh, what-

There's two other iPhones. They're both white. Whose are those? Where at? In the apartment. There's no other. Oh, actually, she does have another phone. Yeah, she does have two phones. Why does she have two phones? She needed to get her service switched over through Boost Mobile, and she just never did. I bought her that new phone, and she just never did. How did you buy her a phone? You're not working. Well, I mean, I make money through, you know, all you need to do is one job. I mean, I can make $1,000 easily.

You said you charged $200. Yeah, but I mean that's just for a menu, you know? But I mean if I make a website, I can do the work for people, make videos, all kinds of stuff for them. Where does friend number one live now? In Vegas somewhere, I'm guessing. You ever talk to him or what? No, we had like a fallout, so... Over what? Money, pretty much. Him trying to take all the money that we had.

So we can come back to the iPhone. There's a lot, a lot here. But I need you to understand that the stuff on the devices that we have again is, I mean, we're clear that it's not your friend who's occasionally coming over. We'll go back to, we'll go to the Apple iPhone 3.

This phone was named Keggy, which is your nickname. You would have been 20 at the time, so... iPhone 3? Mm-hmm. There's no way. I would have been 20 at the time. I'm telling you right now that the last time this device was used was five years ago. It was used up until 2015. Well, you can say what you want, but that's not the truth, and... Listen to me.

I'm going off a device that has no reason to lie to me, okay? It goes into your phone. You're talking to someone that has no reason to lie to you. Kagan, you lied to the investigators three years ago. You're lying. Okay, well then why did they... Why would it take three years for them to come and get me? What do you mean? Because you don't understand. Does that make any sense? Like he told you, how big this investigation is. I mean, this is a lot of child porn. Well, I...

Oh my God. Okay. I have no. All right. Whatever. I need a lawyer. Okay. Cause I have no clue what this is ridiculous. Cause they did not have any images or videos of children at all.

I'm telling you that right fucking now. There's no way if I shared a dropbox, you know how dropbox works Obviously you're a smart guy, but if someone sends it to me the sender are you are we going? Are we going to clear this up or what do you mean? Because if you're going to keep talking, yeah lawyer. Yeah, you don't want to clear any of this up No, if you're telling me all this no, I do not. I don't want to talk with you anymore. You might need to hear it now

This could be a potential problem in the future. Many people have talked about this regarding this case. Usually, if someone brings up a lawyer, they're supposed to start the interview. The detectives do kind of push a little bit here, so hopefully this won't be a future problem, but they do continue the interrogation.

I really don't because I've heard enough that's bullshit, so I don't need to hear any of it. And you understand the charges?

that you're going to jail with right now. Yep. Okay, a lifeline is here. I'm trying, yeah. When you guys are sitting here telling me that I'm lying to you and I'm not. Well, I'm going to tell you. I have no reason to lie to you. That's why I have no reason to lie to you. If you watch the videos. You can let us go through all of it and explain it to you so at least you understand that

you have that opportunity. If nothing else, we can go through it and you can just listen. Because I'm telling you right now, just the level four child exploitation, those stacked together, just those counts are 45 years in Indiana. Right, right. That's not counting. There's 30 total counts. Right, right.

So do you want to go through this and get charged with and take all of this? Because you are getting charged with this. All of this is being put on you. And if you don't want to hear everything, that's your... So I can sit in silence and not say anything? If you want to keep talking to us, yeah. Okay. You want to keep talking to us? Yeah, yep. Okay. Again, I have no reason to lie to you. I understand. I'm sorry for...

Acting the way I do, but I mean, that's... If I didn't do something, then that's what... So we would expect that. But you gotta understand, we need an answer for this, right? Because either it's...

It's all of you or it's you and someone else. Right. They told me that last time I was here too. I wasn't here last time. About killing two girls. That's what they said to me. They tried to say that I failed a polygraph and that I did it. Me or my dad. So do you understand how I kind of have like a kind of like presence where like, wow, these guys are bullshit artists. You get where I'm coming from? Right. And I get...

And I just want to be clear. You do not want a lawyer at this time. You're still willing to talk to us. Yeah.

Okay, but you have to understand from our point of view that we're going to take off the data of multiple devices, okay? And we do need to get to this because right now you are taking the heat and everything is being placed on you, okay? So that's why this is important to go through this. Now, at any point that you want to be honest and say, look, guys, this was not on me and I know it wasn't on me because of this. I just did.

I don't know who it is, but I'm telling you, I did not any children at all. Okay. Well, I'm just going to keep going through this then. Okay. All right. Um, so like we said, this is still the iPhone four. Okay. Um, still the Emily and 45, um, a conversation. Now this happened on April 30th,

2016, Emily Ann is talking to someone and Emily Ann says, quote, I just checked my kick messages. Ha ha. My little cousin must have accidentally sent me a video of her. Oh my God. End quote.

Emily Ann sends a picture and says, quote, she just got naked and rubbed. Ha ha. It's hot as fuck. She's super young, though. Emoji sad face. She didn't mean to send it to me. What's your deal? End quote. And then that person finally says, quote, hey, I don't have good service for it to load. OK, fine.

It kind of seems because they said she didn't like that. Emily Ann called another girl hot as fuck. Then Emily Ann says, she's my cousin, question mark. And then it ends. This next conversation we mentioned earlier in our story and it ties in Kagan's father, Tony Kline.

Um, another one that comes up on the iPhone, uh, another kick one. Now, this is on September 7th, 2016, um, with a 13-year-old girl. Emilyann45 says, Hey, yo, Emilyann, what's up? My dad asked your age limit. He said you're gorgeous. He asked if it's wrong to like little girls like you.

The girl says, it's okay, emoji laugh face. That has to be friend number one. I'm telling you right now, that has to be friend number one. Did his dad live with you guys? 1000%. His dad lived in Peru with him. Yeah. I mean, 1000%. I never said any of that. But not with you guys though. No, no. Yeah.

Emily Ann says, hey, it's Adam. You're so cute, princess. She says, thanks. Emily Ann, were you naked in that? She says, yep. Emily Ann says, show more? She sends another. Emily Ann says, I love your nipples with a smiley winky face.

Emily Ann says, "You're 12, right?" She says, "13." Emily Ann says, "So hot," with another winky face. Um, back down in the chat, Emily Ann 45 says, "Um, can I see your pussy?" Emily Ann 45 says, "Is it bad I would have fucked you so long ago?" with another wink face.

Um, and this is the part where it doesn't make, it doesn't make sense to me. Cause Emily Ann says, quote, would you have sucked a 37 year old dick when you were 10? She says, of course. Emily Ann 45 says, would you let a grown man finger you? Wink face. She, uh, says, uh, sure. Uh,

Emilyann45 says, "How young would you go?" She says, "I don't know." Emilyann says, "Tell me." She says, "Seven." Emilyann says, "So hot. Wink face." So, I mean, the age doesn't add up, but I mean, was this... And again, we're clear on the, uh, you said that you had images of 14, 15, something like that. Right.

Was that something that you and friend number one shared? Was that you guys shared child porn together? No, never. We never talked about anything like that. So when you were talking to these girls that were 14, 15, I mean, were you would...

be in where would you be at in the house what do you mean like like I mean would you be in the bedroom yeah yeah my bedroom okay and you guys said you lived in an apartment so I'm assuming with the rent with everything it wouldn't be a big apartment just because of how expensive things are so

So what would friend number one be doing? When? What do you mean? Like when we lived in Vegas? Uh-huh. Or whenever? I don't know. I didn't really... So when friend number one would come over and you guys would hang out, where would you guys hang out? In the living room and stuff. Okay. Yeah. So I mean, you tell me every time he came over, you guys got high and he took your phone and...

No, what I'm saying is I don't ever remember him having my phone. But if I'm passed out, you know what I mean? I don't know what someone's done. This one's on an Apple iPhone 4. This is on May 14th, 2016. Emilyann45 says, quote, My dad asked your age. They said 16. Emilyann said, quote, He said there's no way. Okay, fine.

Emily Ann says, "He said send a pic of you." No response. Another one, this would have been in 2016, "My dad asked how often you've had sex." Which was Emily Ann saying that. Girl number four says, "I'm a virgin." Emily Ann says, "My dad asked if you think you could deep throat." Girl number four says, "Yeah, I think. Why?"

Emily Ann says, "He asked if an older man took you into the bathroom and told you to get on your knees and suck his cock, what would you do?" Girl #4 says, "No, probably not." Emily Ann says, "Oh." Emily Ann said, "He asked if a 40-year-old had you over, could he look at your pussy?"

Girl number four said, "No." "Uh, what does your dad look like?" Emily Ann sends a picture. Um, Emily Ann said, um, "Well, I'm sorry." Girl number four said, "How old?" Emily Ann said, "42. What about you?" She said, "16." Um, he said, "Oh." Girl number four said, "Yeah." Emily Ann said, quote, "He asked if you'd ever hook up with a 42-year-old."

Girl #4 said yes. Emily Ann said, "He's almost 43 though. He'd asked if you would lose your virginity to him and show your body baby." Um, and then it gets down to Emily Ann asks for Girl #4's Skype and she gives it to him. Emily Ann said, "He asked if you want to watch him jerk off." Emily Ann said,

Through what Skype account?

I'd have to look on that one. But what I'm trying to say is, I mean, that would mean that if that was friend number one, he'd be masturbating in your house. Right. On Skype. And I think you or your dad would have probably noticed that. Yeah.

So this is, is this one that you probably talked to because she was 16? No, I never, I never used Skype. I never Skyped anyone. So what'd you use? I mean, Skype in high school and stuff, but never. Why would I video chat with someone if, you know, I mean, I'm obviously not that person.

You could just keep her on dark so you can't see anything, right? Which is very common in cases like this. They'll say they're in a dark room, our cameras aren't working,

where they can see the other user, but they can't see them. It's a pretty common practice with these types of cases. What I'm trying to wrap my head around, I mean, you made the Emily Ann account. Right. Okay, and you talked to girls with it. Right. So some of these have to be you, right? Yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely. I definitely talked to girls on there. Yeah, I'm not denying that at all.

This is another one. 2016 from Emily Ann. Another person both says hey. Emily Ann says how old is your sis? She says four. Emily Ann says picture question mark. She sends a picture. They say her booty lol. And Emily Ann responds damn with a wink face and anymore.

Another one on the iPhone, Emily Ann and another person. Emily Ann says, just wondering, you're still 12. They say 13 turning 14. Emily Ann says, have you fucked? They say, I'm saving mine for marriage, like girl sex. Emily Ann says, yes, like best friend sex.

Then down towards the bottom, Emily Ann says, is it bad that I want to finger my best friend? They say, I don't know. And again, these are a couple of days that these chats have taken place. So the previous was Monday. This was another day. And the next day, or I'm sorry, a couple days later, Emily Ann says, quote, the video of you fingering your butt makes me cum every time.

Emily Ann says, is so hot. A couple of days into the month later, Emily Ann contacts them again, quote, want to rub each other. She says no. Emily Ann, a couple months later, contacts her again and says, now I'm to the point where I look at the old video two times a day and use my marker again.

Uh, we were able to find that video. It's of that girl. And we found that video. And then we also found the video of this girl masturbating. Um, then a couple, another month later in August, Emily Ann says, quote, my dad asked if you still shave a lot. They say, yes. The next day, Emily Ann says, quote, he asked if you'd still ride him.

A couple of days later, Emily Ann said, quote, he asked if he could taste your panties. They said, I don't know. And then again, the next month, Emily Ann contacts them and says, quote, my dad asks, keeps asking about your butt. And then they stopped the conversation there.

So we have these here. Again, I already went over the Dropbox stuff. But on March 28th, 2016 to May 4th, 2016, Emily Anne communicates with another person. And the next month, Emily Anne asks for videos. A couple of days later, Emily Anne and this person exchanged Dropbox links. And again, the Dropbox links were linked back to yours as well.

Let's go back to Snapchat, which everyone thinks that that stuff gets deleted, but it does get recovered. On 11/16 we have chats where "You're so hot. They say I'm 15. Your response is, I know. Show daddy your body."

And we want to take a second to give a trigger warning. This next part is a horrific description of child pornography of a child under the age of seven, but it is a part of the transcript, so we will go ahead and read it, but warning, it is horrible.

And then these were the ones that were the really bad ones. These were videos that were on your phone. The duration of one of the videos is 45 seconds. And it was an African American female. She was about 4 to 7. She's wearing a white tank top with no pants.

Um, she was on her hands and knees, facing away from the camera. She was holding a vibrating toothbrush that was turned on, and there was an unidentified male taking a video of the child, and he was rubbing, um, his penis and penetrating the child's anus. Uh...

Another video was a minute and 44, 54 seconds long. Caucasian female, three to five years old, laying... I don't... Can I not hear this? I mean, this is on your... Again, this is on your phone. This is what you're being charged with. I... I understand, but I mean, I don't want to hear that. You don't want to hear... I mean, again, this is what you're being charged with. I understand, but I mean, I would rather not hear about that. You know what I mean? What about it? What is it?

about that, that specifically that you... I mean, you keep talking about these little kids and stuff. I don't want to hear that stuff. But I need you, I need to make sure that you understand this is what was on your phone. I'd just rather not hear any of that stuff. Okay, we'll jump to another iPhone. Again, this is the iPhone 3. iPhone's name is Keggy. Last utilized in 2015. It did have a passcode on it.

It had your email addresses, the account information, the web history. That was beautiful young teens, cute young teen on webcam, high school gangbang, hot young teens, really young girls virgin, teen fuck for drugs, young teen fucked, underage girl strip,

underage girl gets fucked in the ass um a bunch of those in the search history and again we will jump to the samsung galaxy s5 which was the one that you found in vegas in a rental car um

And just in that little time that you had that phone, I mean, which was two days, I think you had that phone somewhere like that. The web history that was recovered on there after... I didn't even use that phone.

Well, you had factory reset it once you had it. And then the timestamps from after the factory reset, which again, it has your name, Klein Photography. It had all of your emails, accounts on it, including Emily Ann and the Kagan Klein at Hotmail. The web searches were preteen booty, preteen body, little preteen body,

Girl touched while asleep. Preteen fingered on video. Little girl. Young little teen vids. There was child pornography on there as well. One image, it was a collage of images and it was a Caucasian female, 7 to 10 years old, performing oral sex on an unidentified nude male.

There was some bestiality on there as well, which I know you said that was kind of the weirdest porn that you have looked up. I don't even remember doing that. Yeah, I mean, in your polygraph, you mentioned the weirdest porn you looked up was with animals. So that was on there as well. And then on the Samsung Galaxy S4, which was last utilized in 2015, that one had your Kagan Klein Skype.

Tony Klein Skype, Kagan Klein at Hotmail, Tony Klein at Gmail, Kagan Klein at Gmail, TonyKlein765 at Gmail, Emily Ann.

And those internet searches were 12-year-old, 12-year-old body, 12-year-old fingered, 13-year-old, 13-year-old Snapchat, 14-year-old, 14-year-old anal. That's all you, Kagan Klein.

Little Teen Ass Fucked. You looked up photos of Sandy Hook bodies. Preteen. Preteen Slut. Underage Blowjob. Why is the Sandy Hook in there? It's in your searches. Yeah, but that's not... Next Book Premium Tablets. That was last in 2016. It had your Kagan Klein at Hotmail. Tony Klein Skype.

Kagan Klein Snapchat, Emily Ann, um, one, it had child porn on it as well, um, 13 to 15 year old Caucasian female not wearing a shirt exposing her breasts.

The iPod Touch was last utilized in 2015. It was secured with a PIN code. It had your Kagan Klein at hotmail.com, Kagan Klein usernames, and a search history recorded from that was 12-year-old girl sucks, 13-year-old girl butts, 13-year-old handjob, 16-year-old sucking dick, and

Actually, A Search of Kagan Klein, Little Girl Touching, Sexy 14-Year-Old, Young Little Girl Sucking, and Young Little Girl Takes It in the Ass. And the time's off on that, too. I never used that in 2015 at all, either. And then the iPhone 5.

The Apple iPhone 5C, that was the one that you had, that was your main device. It was named Kagan's phone. This was the one that you turned in to the state police after the search warrant was served.

And the names on there, Kagan Klein at Hotmail, Kagan Klein 45 at iCloud, Emily Ann, Jerry Klein, Kagan Klein 1, Kagan Klein again. We had some search history recovered on there. Little Teens, Little Teenie, Jailbait, Preteen Snapchat, Preteen Snapchat Saves. And I mean...

Right.

And you were done with the polygraph at 7.30, okay? You went back home. At 9.19, you found the phone, right? Right. You found that they had left the phone, right? Yeah. Where'd you find it? It was in the kitchen somewhere. It was on, it was like on top of the microwave, I think. Okay, so then what'd you do? What do you mean? What did you do after you found your phone? I, uh, I think, pretty sure I had my dad call the state department or something.

Maybe I did. I can't remember. When do you think he did that? I think it was the next day, maybe. Or, yeah, I think it was the next day. So why wouldn't you call right away and say, hey... I don't even think I found it that night. I'm not sure. You just said that you got home and you found it on the microwave. Well, I'm saying that's where I found it, not right when I got home. I can't remember.

If it was that night or the next day. Well, I'm going to tell you that after your polygraph, you went home, you found the phone in the microwave, like you said. And I think that was the most honest statement you made here today, was what you just said. You went home, you found your phone in the microwave, and at 9.19, you uninstalled Snapchat and you deleted it from the phone. Um...

Then right after that, you uninstalled Instagram and deleted it from the phone. And then the next day, on the 26th, you uninstalled and deleted Meet Me from the phone. Right.

And then you uninstalled Snapchat again, checked to make sure you got it all deleted, everything got deleted, then you deleted and uninstalled it again. And then it wasn't until two days later when you called the state police and said, oh, hey, by the way... Well, I wasn't making sure it was deleted. I deleted the accounts. I deleted the Meet Me. I deleted all those accounts. So why'd you delete that?

Because like you said, it was the most real wake-up call I ever had in my life. So I mean, you know, went home and deleted it. I deleted the meet me, everything. When you also knew the contents of everything on there would be removed as well. Well, but, uh...

I guess, yeah, I mean, I didn't know that, but... But you said it was the biggest wake-up call, so obviously... Yeah, I'm meaning like, hey, I need to really change my fucking life here. Stop talking to girls underage? Yeah, exactly. Which you admitted to talking to underage girls on Snapchat and Instagram. Right. That was my way of, like, getting rid of all those accounts and stuff. Right, before you turned it into law enforcement. No, not really, because...

Yeah, really honestly, that's what happened. I'm telling you. Honestly, no. It was what I did it and then I thought about it and I was like, if they know I have another phone, that's going to look really bad on me. Right. So and that's the second most honest thing you've said today. Absolutely. I completely agree with you.

And I think when you came home, you saw it and you're like, oh man, I mean, this is my phone. I was talking to underage girls on Snapchat and Instagram. I need to delete this stuff. You did. Yeah. And then you realize that law enforcement would obviously want it. So what I'm trying to-

You know what I mean. I didn't want them to think like I'm trying to hide stuff from them or something. By deleting the stuff before you gave it... Before you turned it in. Well, I mean, I deleted the accounts. So, yeah, I guess it did delete the stuff. But that wasn't my point. So, again, I mean...

We really have to go back over. I mean, I just read you and I think you made me stop reading stuff, but you're responsible for this content. That's on every one of your phones. I'm in possession. Okay? They're secured with a password and named, labeled your phones, right? Right. Okay, if I give, like I said, if I give my phone to him and he's looking at this stuff... Right. I mean...

Right. Right. What? No. I mean, like the girls I would talk to...

So we have to understand because what I'm telling you right now, the friend that comes over occasionally and didn't live with you. So what I'm telling you right now is that he's not a friend of yours.

Why didn't you tell this to investigators when they talked to you originally? Because none of this was brought up. They didn't tell me you know what I mean.

I have to, well, I mean, I had no clue there was little kid stuff on there. Me and this lady talked about it and I told her, yeah, I had a problem and she, you know, we talked about everything. I had no clue that there was little kids on there. No. And why would I give the cop my phone if there was stuff on there like that, that I knew was on there? You said it yourself. I mean, you just sat here and said, if I didn't, they would know that they missed it and come back for it. Well, yeah. Yeah.

If they knew I had a phone, that would look really weird on me. Right, look bad on you. I mean, you just said, "Why wouldn't you give them that because it would look bad on you," right? Yeah, so I mean, like, why would I give them my phone knowing that though? It would be like, "Okay, come and get me then." You know what I mean? Well, again, you deleted it before you gave it to law enforcement. You deleted your avenues that you talked to these girls with. So you're covering yourself, right?

In this next part, Kagan is talking about speaking with a woman right after his home was raided, and he admitted to her that he had a problem with child pornography. Because like that lady said, stop right now and delete everything, just... She did not. Kagan, she did not tell you to delete everything. Well, maybe not like that. She didn't say delete every...

What she said was like, you do have a problem and you need to stop right now. And I'm telling you, your exact same words were, yes, I do. And I'm so fucked. Yeah, because she's telling me I just killed two people and I filled my polygraph. That wasn't even what we were talking about. We were, this is way before that. Okay, well, this is years ago. I don't remember everything. You know what I mean?

I never got to see videos of myself, so I don't remember every... That's what I needed to explain because I'm telling you, when the prosecutor goes through all of this, it's not going to fly that a guy living next to you was accessing your phone and was accessing your account information, knew your passwords, was... These conversations were days and hours in length. I...

See what you're saying days and hours That would be someone living in the home that was using the device and communicating with these girls and communicating with these people that were Trading child porn and again, it's not just a random occurrence. We're talking years We're talking months of the same person. We're talking days. We're talking hours So this is so who else I get what you're saying, but

I admit that I... That's what I'm saying. Friend number one was the only person around that. But we've already ruled him out because, again, let's go back to what I just said. I really wouldn't rule him out. How's that ruling someone out? So you gave him your phone that he could... Well, I...

I'm saying like he's used my phone before. I'm not saying I'm like, hey, use my phone. For days and months at a time? No. Right. So again. But I mean, like I said. Listen to me. We can rule him out because again, this is days and months at a time.

Okay. And hours at a time. So it can't be friend number one. I mean, multiple devices, not just one. It would be one thing if this was like a one-time... How is it across multiple devices if I have them all connected? Well, I mean, Apple iPhone... So one thing happens, then it goes on the devices. Yeah, I mean...

The Apple, I mean, you had three before you had the four, right? Right. And then the conversations... So when I get another phone, I download everything that was on the past phone onto my new phone. But the timestamps are completely different. The image timestamps are different. I understand. Right. So, and I don't want to...

I mean, I don't want to question your relationship or anything, but I mean, is this something that you and your dad share? No, no, not really. And now we're going to have another ad break.

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download june's journey today it's available on android and ios mobile devices as well as on pc through facebook games seriously y'all you will really enjoy the game june's journey now let's get back to today's story just as a refresher in this next part detectives talk to kagan about how he and his dad attempted to go to the bunny ranch together which is a licensed brothel outside of las vegas

Because, I mean, you had mentioned in your interview that you guys looked at going to the bunny ranch when you were in Vegas. Well, that's prostitutes. That's totally different.

Yeah, but I mean, it's, I mean, together, you know, I mean, have you ever, I mean, let me throw this scenario at you. So you're sitting there and you're talking to these, you're physically sitting there, not friend number one or anyone else. And you're talking to an 18 year old and she sends you a nude. Right. Right.

And you're like, dad, check this out. No, I've never done that before. Why? I mean, why wouldn't you? That's my dad. That's weird. Why would I show? So you go to the brothel? I'm not like, hey, here's a personal picture of a girl that I know naked. Here you go. Well, let's just say a girl you don't know. I mean, you... No, I...

Never really done that. Well, you go to the bunny ranch with your dad. Well, I'm not watching my dad fuck someone. What do you mean? That's like a professional place. But I'm saying that's completely different than just saying like, wow, check her out. She's pretty hot. Yeah, no, I've never done that. No. What about with friend number one?

Yeah, of course. So your friends, I mean, just your dad have that? Yeah, that's weird. Yeah, I wouldn't do that with my dad, no. Yeah, that's weird. I mean, I guess I don't understand. I mean, would you show your dad a naked picture of a girl? Well, I mean, I don't really know my dad, but yeah, I mean, I guess if we were sitting there and...

It was a hot girl. I'd be like, hey, check this out. Do you know what I mean? Especially if we went to strip clubs together. If she was a model or something, maybe. Or you know what I mean? Well, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. You know what I mean? Maybe, yeah. I see what you're saying now. Right. I mean...

Yeah, but nah, I just, I don't know. We never really had that. I don't know.

In this next part, detectives ask Kagan why his father's information is on one of the phones. Kagan said that he used to help his dad out with technology when it came to his dad's job at Chrysler.

So why would some of his account information be on the same phones? Because Chrysler. I have to do his Upwork and stuff like that. There's a bunch of stuff that he had to fill out for Chrysler and stuff. He's not good with... His Skype login stuff on the phone to do with that? Yeah, I don't know what the Skype login... I'm not sure that that could be like maybe he used it to...

I don't know. Maybe he talked to my cousin on there or something. I'm not sure. Okay, so dad did have access to your phones and use them. No, I mean like... You just said that. Here, like... Here, here's my phone. It's not like he would be like, take my phone and never use it. Right. Right. So...

Similar to what you would do with friend number one. You'd say here... Right, right, yeah. Okay, well, not just anyone. You said pretty much friend number one. Well, I mean, I... Friend number one was the only person. My phone to use it, I mean. You need to call someone, I would give them my phone, I mean. I can see that happening, but I mean, I'm talking like hours at a time, or... No, no.

So friend number one and dad were the only people that were allowed to do that. No, my dad wouldn't even be allowed to do that. I wouldn't let my dad have my phone for long periods of time or nothing like that. Kagan, you are completely... I mean, you... I have to do my dad's work on his computer or on my phone or on his thing, you know what I mean? Like, you have my email. You can search uplink on Kagan Klein Hotmail right now and see all that. It's Chrysler stuff. But help me understand this. I don't understand this. So you will give a friend...

complete 110% access to your phone and your accounts. No, I never said that. Listen, listen, you just did. You just... I really didn't. You said that friend number one could use your phone for however long he wanted. Well, yeah, he's on the phone with someone or something. So just listen to me. You're not letting me finish, okay? Well, you... I'm trying to understand...

Okay. No.

Okay, because again, this doesn't make sense to me. So a friend that you have, you'll give him your passcode, which contains, I mean, full access to your phone. It contains all of your messaging. It contains your banking information, your Amazon. That would be the biggest one I'd be worried about. Like, is someone going to use up my Amazon and my cards on there and everything like that? So you let a friend do all of that when you won't let your dad do it.

Who you don't even let him... I let friend number one use my phone for Amazon. How do you know? You're high on drugs, you say? Well, exactly. So I don't know what he's doing on my phone. So why would you give him access to your phone? I mean, I don't know. See how that makes no sense? That you wouldn't let... Not really. I mean, like, I have friends that if they need to use my phone, hey man, here's my phone. So you and your dad, not a good relationship? Not really. I mean, we do.

But, like, not really. So why is that? Like, help me understand. Why would you give a friend complete access and not your dad? I mean, it's my dad. I don't know. What do you mean? Same exact, like, there's stuff on there that I would never want my dad to see. So, like, what do you mean? Like, bad relationship with your dad in the past? Well, like, you know, we always get in arguments and stuff growing up and stuff. About what? Every...

My dad is like he has a real short temper. So would always freak out on me literally over anything. Like literally anything. Give me an example so I can understand better. Like I slammed his door too hard on his truck. His truck door? Oh yeah. So like I'm mowing the yard and I accidentally have it pointed towards his vehicles or something. What do you mean towards his vehicles? Like the blower or whatever. Like I understand...

Rock or something. Well, like, little things like that don't even matter. You would just get... What would his reaction be to slamming his... What'd you say? His truck door shut or whatever? Oh, he'd just yell at me and stuff, you know. And then what would you do? We'd be in that whole, like...

For a day, we'd be like, I don't want to talk to him type argument. And I mean, I feel like you're still not understanding. There has to be more there that you wouldn't let him have. Like you said, there's pictures and stuff on my phone.

I would never want my dad to come across any of that ever in my life. He would never talk to me. But that'd be okay for friend number one to come across those things. No, but I would much rather be someone like that than my dad. You know what I mean? I don't. I just can't understand and I wish you would help me understand. I mean like imagine some...

I mean, like you said, you have no father growing up or whatever. So that, I mean, that's the same thing. It's just, you know what I mean? If he found out any of that, I would have no dad anymore. My dad would never talk to me again.

And but you don't have a good relationship really anyway, but... I mean, that's different. You know what I mean? That's different than never talking to my dad again in my life. That's way different. Well, I mean, what would you see as the point where your dad would never talk to you again? Talking to underage girls like that?

Would be just... I mean, after this, I mean, he'll never talk to me again, so... I mean, he obviously knew in 2017. No, he didn't. I never told him. No, but I mean, we did. Oh, you did? You...

Talk to him and everything? Well, we, and not as in us, but you know, law enforcement did, and they even told you that they, before you left for your polygraph, she told you, hey, just to let you know, we told your father all of this. And you said- I don't remember her saying that. So what, what was that conversation like when you got home with dad after your polygraph? I told them about how they said that I was a possible suspect or whatever for those girls-

And that's all I told him. I didn't tell him anything about talking, anything that they found on the phones. I was talking to underage girls or anything like that. Never talk, never told him any of that. So what was his reaction when you came home?

He was freaking out. I mean, he was crying. My grandpa was freaking out. You know, I mean, they raided my house, you know what I mean? Like, that's really traumatic, like, experience, so... You say your grandpa was there, too, when you got home? No, but he came over and he left, like, shortly before I got there, but... So...

Other, I mean, there had to be a conversation there. What, cause dad knew. Yeah, I mean, I told him it was about the girls and that they said I failed the polygraph or whatever. But he knew about you talking to underage girls too. Well, then he never said anything to me. He never even brought that up. That's why I thought he never knew the whole time. But...

You just said if he found out that that would ruin your relationship. That's what I'm saying. It clearly didn't. I mean, you still have a relationship with him, right? When's the last time you talked to your dad? I mean, this morning. Okay. Is it? Yeah, this morning. He came to my apartment this morning. How often would you say you see him? Oh, every few weeks. And where is he still living at? That same house.

Okay, so, I mean, since then, I mean, I wouldn't say it ruined your relationship. I mean... No, that's why, like, right now, I'm, like, shocked that he, that you guys told him that. Because he never brought that up to me. I mean, again, you should know because they, they honestly told you that a couple times that they had told your dad. See, I don't remember them saying that to me. And...

That's tough for me. I mean, that's tough for me to believe just because, you know, I was... If you were in my...

Okay, imagine you get home from Las Vegas. You're on a trip. Everything's went well. You get home. You look outside and see SWAT everywhere. Police coming up with guns and stuff. How was your Vegas trip? I mean, it was great. Yeah, no, I'm not really a big drinker because I have seizures and stuff, so I don't like drinking a lot. But, you know, I mean, it was fun. It was super cool. And you know what I mean? And then I get taken down there. They tell me I killed two people. I failed the polygraph because I'm freaking out. And you know what I mean?

It'd be a traumatic experience. Yeah, and I already have anxiety like crazy. And the thing about humans and traumatic experiences is when we do experience something like that, it literally, it engraves into us. Yeah, right. I mean, like 9-11. I can tell you guys exactly what I was doing the entire day of 9-11. And it was a long time ago. Yeah.

And that's why I find it difficult that you don't remember a lot of things because that was a traumatic experience and those memories get engraved into us. Right. Is it just something that you don't want to remember? I mean... It probably... Psychoanalyze it, yeah. Probably is something I probably pushed out of my head. So...

Can you say that these chats and these images are a part of that too? I mean, that was so traumatic to you. Like you said, it was such a problem that you had and that you, it was a wake up call that you had and you just had to push that out as well. That's probably what it was. Yeah. I never really like thought about it, honestly. But yeah, because I don't remember 90% of that stuff you just told me.

And I think you can say that the images of these videos that I was describing are pretty traumatic. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to hear that shit. So possibly, I think what you're trying to say is, I mean, possibly you saw these and it was just so traumatic for you that you pushed it out and you wanted to forget about it? No. No.

I honestly, I don't remember viewing anything of anyone younger than 13 probably. Well, you just said that it's possible that you never thought- Well, it's possible that I never thought of any of the people I talked to. So, like, I couldn't tell you one name of anyone that I talked to. Did you know any of the people you talked to? No, I don't think so.

How did, uh, I mean, how do you, you just like search for people and pull them out? Or how do you go about doing that? Meet me through that app. Do you have to be 18 on meet me or? Yeah, you're, you were supposed to be, but. So everyone you spoke to, all of these girls like that were younger. You met them all on meet me. Yeah. What about like Instagram, Facebook? Yeah.

I don't remember ever really talking to anyone on Instagram, but I could have. But I mean, it was all mostly on Meet Me. I know last year, the video and I know you had, you had said that if you met someone on Instagram or something, you would kick them to Snapchat. I don't, I don't even know. And you did. You did tell them that. You did know a couple of the girls in real life. They just didn't know who you were.

You actually tell them that in the interview. Yeah, I don't remember any of the girls. But you said that there were some people that you legitimately knew. Right, yeah, I don't remember. I don't know. I'm sure there was. I don't remember, though. I mean, there were so many people that I talked to. I don't remember anyone in person, though, ever. Maybe people that I knew of or something, maybe. I don't know.

You had said like, I'm trying to think of, I can't remember her name, but you had said that you had went to school with one of them. And you remember them showing you the pictures of the different girls and- Whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you had said, yeah, I know her personally. I know her personally. No, I met her on Instagram. Like, I mean, I probably meant like I knew of them in person. I don't like actually know them or talk to them or nothing like that.

How would you know of them in person but not actually know them? Well, like I mean, you went to the school I know of. You know what I mean? You talk, but never names you didn't know. Right. Something like that, yeah. Something like that. What about like people or families you were associated with? What do you mean? Like, say it's a, you know, a family you knew and you thought their younger daughter was hot or something. No.

Did you ever do anything like that? No, I don't think so. No. You sure? I don't think so. I mean, any families that I knew of?

Yeah, like someone you would know. Like a couple people in the girl's family as, you know, yourself. And then like some persona or some alternate account you had if you would like try talking to the daughter of a family that you knew or something like that. I have no clue. I don't know. The daughter of a family?

Yeah, so say there's like a family that you knew. Was there anyone that you targeted or stuck out to you? You know, you were seeking out their daughter specifically? No. Seeking out and targeting, no. Trying to talk to? When they were underage? Yes. No, I don't think so. I'm going to tell you that- My girlfriend now is. I mean, that's kinda how I know her. I know her family and stuff. What's your girlfriend's name? Girlfriend A.

You said that you knew her or you said you knew her brother, right? You know her brother? Right. He went to school with me. How old's girlfriend A now? Nineteen. Okay. And you're twenty. Twenty six. Twenty six.

And just like that, I would never hang out with her. She was 17 when me and her, like, first started talking. She had, like, one month until she was 18, and I never would hang out with her until she turned 18. Just because of that, like, past. Like, I'm not, you know what I mean? But you still talked to her. Well, not even like that. Like, it was all friendly.

So, I mean, what made her different than the 16 and 15-year-old girls that you admitted to talking to and trading sexual images with? Well, I wouldn't send, like, sexual images and stuff. You said in your polygraph... Well, with girlfriend A. With girlfriend A, no. No, not with girlfriend A. Right. But I'm saying, what made her different than... Because I knew her. You know what I mean? It was more of like a...

Like, I don't know. More of like a not on the phone type thing. You know, I don't know how to explain that, but it was like, I don't know. And I mean, she was 17 and... I mean, in your own words, in every language... Well, I mean, I've never hung out with them. I, you know, I'm not talking about hanging out. I'm talking about talking to them, sexting and trading images. And that, I mean, you in your own words...

When they, you know, what would happen if a girl told you she was under 16, you would, you said that you would still talk to them. And when they said, how many girls do you think you have, um, exchanged nude images with? Over 200. How many videos of girls do you have masturbating? Over 25. How many of those girls were underage? All of them. I mean, so again, I mean, it,

It feels like you're trying to keep a secret. I'm re- I swear, I'm really not. But this is- Like, if I was trying to keep secrets, I would have wanted a lawyer from the beginning and not said a word. But you have to understand- If I would have known, then- I mean-

You keep going to like, well, she was 17. She was... But I mean... I'm saying like girlfriend A, it was different. It was like... It was a real person. Her age meant nothing. I mean, her age didn't mean anything because obviously... Well, she was getting ready to turn 18. So it was like, you know, it's only one month. It wasn't like how... Explain the thought process on like if a 15-year-old told you...

You're 15 or that she was 15. Why would you keep talking to her? A random person that you don't know. I don't know. It's like not probably that she's not a real person, if that makes any sense. Like she's just a person on the phone. That you can manipulate, right? So you get off on manipulating. Manipulation. Manipulation.

And like the whole Emily Ann. Why that? Why Emily Ann? I don't know. It's just a random name. This Emily, is Emily account something like Emily in class or something? Or is it made up? Yeah. Emily and Emma. Yeah. It was always something like that. Yeah. Right. But like, like, again, help me explain.

The thought process behind that. Like, why a girl? Why did you portray yourself as a girl? Probably because they would be more, I don't know, probably wouldn't feel as threatened to talk to a girl than a boy. You know what I mean? They wouldn't? Right. Something like that.

It was probably easier to get them to send you nudes if it meant they thought you were a girl. They thought you were a girl sending them to then a guy. Right. And if you know you were maintaining these, the relationships, like there was a few where, I mean, it was like boyfriend and girl or girlfriend and girlfriend type things. You know, did, I mean, did you feel like...

It was an actual love? No, no, no, no. I mean, there's a lot of them. And a lot of them, like you said, helped you through a lot of tough times and like depression and everything that you were going through. I mean, there had to have been. I mean, there was I love you's exchanged and things like that. Yeah, that was just to get what I wanted. You know what I mean? So what was your end goal when you would start contacting? To get naked pictures from them. Okay, okay.

And then you obviously had told the polygrapher that you would masturbate to those images. I mean... Yeah. So, you were sexually aroused to those images. Right. Yeah. Um, what, I mean, where would you draw the line then? Of what? Age-wise. Like, 13. 13? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And what about a 13-year-old made it different than a 12-year-old for you sexually? Probably the age of just being like a teenager, probably.

The specific age searches on your phone, like the 12-year-old girls, the 13-year-old girls, that was you? I'm guessing. I don't know. I mean, I'm sure I looked that stuff up. I mean, that was... 12-year-old girl's stomach, 12-year-old gangbang, stuff like that? Like those searches? Yeah.

I don't ever remember searching that, but yeah, I mean... I mean... Probably that was... I mean, yeah. I mean, I think you have like a thing for girl stomachs. Is that... I mean, we all have. Right. Yeah, okay. And then, so it was searches like that on just browsing the web or... I don't know. I don't even remember searching any of that stuff. It was probably Internet Explorer or something like that. Okay. Now, how many... I mean, would you...

Would you be able to find a lot or... I don't know. I don't even remember. I don't know. Probably not. So that's probably why you had to facilitate actually talking to them. To the girl. Yeah. And you had said, and again, I really just want to get things clarified. The friend one relationship ended in 2018. You had said that, right? Yeah. Yeah. So...

When you had moved to Vegas and you had the new phone that you found and your iPhone 5 that you... So those searches would have been yours because no one else would have had access to that. Yeah, I'm guessing. Which again, were in that age range that you said you prefer. And that really shows how bad it is because...

I don't even remember ever even searching anything there. When? In Vegas? Yeah. How often would you probably commit a day when you were doing it? Ugh.

I have no clue. I mean, there was girls I would talk to. I don't know. It was literally like you wake up in the morning, first thing you do is check your phone. Probably. I don't know. Last thing at night before you go to bed, first thing when you get up type thing. No, I don't think it was like that. When would you normally get up? I have no...

I mean, I don't know. That was three years ago. Probably eight or nine, I guess. Ten. I don't know. You said like 1030. Sound about right? Yeah. So again, I mean, you got to help me understand this because, you know, we're past the friend one thing in the past. The 2018, these are the new devices that only you have access to. And the search history, I mean, I'm looking at...

is the same. So I think it's safe to say that friend number one didn't search those things. Uh, yeah, I don't remember searching any of those though. But if you only had access to the phone, then it would have to be. The Samsung Galaxy phone? And the iPhone 5. Because again, we're past the friend one falling out relationship. Dad doesn't know your password.

And it was just you and him. And if I'm talking, these searches were in Vegas. Yeah, but when I was in Vegas on that vacation, I was friends with friend number one, though. You said your falling out was before that. No, my falling out was when we left Vegas. I moved back to Indiana in 2018. Hmm.

And then, but he wasn't out there with you guys. It was just you and your dad. In 2016? 2017, when you went to Vegas. I thought it was 16, but yeah, no, he wasn't with us. Right, and that's what I'm saying. Those searches, the times of those searches were when you guys were out there. So what I'm trying to say is... Right, and that's what I'm saying. I don't even remember searching anything out there. Why? I don't know.

Who all went to Vegas? Like a big party? Were you guys celebrating something? Nope, just me and my dad. And you had had that planned for... Yeah, we had had that planned for almost a year probably before that. You didn't meet anyone out there or... No, no. So, I mean, why don't you think you're... Well, we did meet someone. One of my dad's friends. What's his name? Uh, well...

What was his name? I don't know. I don't even know. I don't know. I don't even know. That was my dad's friend. I'm not sure. And did you...

Did you and your dad share a room? One room or? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so when do you think you would have had the opportunity to make these searches? Oh, I probably would have, you know, went to the bathroom or something like that. Or maybe when he was sleeping or something. Okay, after you got the professional services and the meet me or? I never did that, man. No, that was on there. Meeting a girl in Vegas? Yep. From meet me?

And just other kick messages and on things like that, the escort service that you were talking to on their prices, like two, I think at one point she said 250 and you're like, that's a little much. See, I don't even remember that. I probably did though, because I mean, we were talking about going to the bunny ranch. So yeah, probably did. Which is, I mean, it's legal out there. Right. Anyway.

Anyways, so what else about that vacation stood out? What do you mean? Like, I mean, just go over there, the vacation, like what you guys did. I mean, we went sightseeing and stuff like that. I mean, I was really about it. Just sightseeing about every day, gamble and stuff like that. And did you ever arrange anything? You didn't go to the bunny ranch, you said. No. No.

Why not go there? It was too far. It was pretty far outside of Vegas. It's super expensive. Way too expensive. How much? It's like $400 for an hour. For an hour? Oh, yeah. I could see that being a lot. What, I mean, what would the price point that you would have been happy with? Oh, I don't know.

What about your dad? What price range? Probably $150 or something like that. $150? And what would you expect for $150? Probably head. Probably blowjob. For $150? Yeah. What about your dad? What would he think? What would he want? Probably the same. The same? Yeah, probably the same, yeah. But I mean, it had to be, well, you weren't working at the time, were you? No. No.

So he was, I'm assuming he was paying for everything. So he'd probably be in the negotiation somewhere if he's got to pay double. Right. Yeah. You know? And did he try, did he try to, I mean, since he was the negotiator and in the pocket man, did he try to negotiate it too? No, I just called him on the phone.

Well, like the chats and stuff like that. No. So he just left it up to you to negotiate prices. Yeah. My dad's not really good with phones at all, like anything electronic.

That's why I got to do all this Chrysler stuff. But I mean, I think he had mentioned like he knows like Facebook messaging and everything like that. Right. And that at the time you weren't with girlfriend A. No. Right. Who was your girlfriend at the time? I don't think I had one. Girlfriend B maybe. Yeah. She didn't go with you guys? No. No.

What did she think of the whole law enforcement thing at your house? I told her and then I kind of quit talking to her after that. What'd you tell her? I told her that my house got raided and stuff and I told her because of the two girls and that's it. I obviously didn't tell her anything else. So what'd you tell her about that? Like they said that I failed that thing and how they were questioning me about it and stuff.

And what'd she say? I mean, she freaked out, obviously. I mean, she kind of, it was more her quit talking to me kind of thing. She did? Yeah. I mean, I mean, why would she? I mean, we weren't like a serious boyfriend and girlfriend or nothing like that. It was just kind of like a hangout thing because we'd known each other our whole lives pretty much. And now we're going to take our final ad break.

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So, and again, Kagan, I'm just really trying to understand all of this stuff and trying to add it up. And I'm going to be honest with you, it doesn't, okay? It doesn't.

You know, giving a friend access, full access to your phone, but not your dad, and again... I mean, it's more of like my dad... And just listen, just listen. You know, being weirded out by showing your dad a picture of a hot girl, but yet negotiating prices to hook up and get a blowjob, you know what I mean?

Well, like I mean, like, I'm not going to show my dad a picture of a 16-year-old girl and be like, hey, look at this girl. I mean, I would never do that. Well, you even said 18. Well, I wouldn't. Well, I mean, I didn't really talk to a lot of 18-year-olds, you know? So, I mean, I wasn't really getting nudes from, you know, girls like that because I had technically I had a girlfriend, but that's why I would never want to like hang out with anyone in person or nothing.

Because of what? I already had, I mean, I already had a girlfriend. If I wanted to have sex with someone, I'd just have sex with girlfriend B. Girlfriend B? But I mean, you said that it wasn't a serious relationship. I mean, it wasn't serious, but I mean, we had sex a lot. You guys did? Yeah.

So you did have a sexual relationship? Oh yeah. Um, how old was girlfriend B at the time? She's my age, so she might be 25 now. I don't know. 25, and you had no other contact with her since then? Since that happened? Not really. I don't even think... I think she moved to like somewhere else. I'm not even sure.

Gotcha. But I mean, I think we're at the point where, you know, with all of this information on your phone, on multiple phones, and, you know, your own admission that you were talking to girls underage. And I mean, I'm not talking one or two images that could be kind of hidden. I mean, you knew the stuff that was, you knew that stuff was on your phone, right? I mean, yeah.

Yeah, I knew I talked to those girls a lot on kick and stuff. Yeah, I mean, I don't think I ever deleted any messages on there. Well, you said you deleted the apps and stuff like that. So that way they couldn't hold it against you for... Not even that, but more of... It would look bad? Yeah, right.

Well, not even that. Just more of like how she said just, you know, I don't know. She really like... She kind of really made me real... Not really realize. I already knew. But like it was more of a motherly type thing when I talked to that lady. How she was, you know, like, you know, you're so young. You need to...

Well, you said that she told you to delete everything, stop what you're doing...

And I actually not really like that, but I mean, she was like, hey. So why? I mean, why lie? I mean, you lied in the beginning to them that you didn't make any fraudulent accounts. You didn't talk to underage girls knowing, I mean, that they had your phones. Right, right. So why lie? I don't know. The anxiety and freaking out about everything. It's just...

Like maybe if I lied to get away with it or something, you know, probably something like that. And I mean, I hope that's not your thought process today. No. Because obviously today's completely different. Yeah. And what concerns me is, and again, as I expect you to be honest, I want to be honest with you, is just the whole friend one thing doesn't make any sense to me.

The whole dad thing doesn't make sense to me either. So honestly, I mean, I don't think you've been 100% honest about this. And I think there's other stuff that you haven't been honest about. And that's something we do need to talk about too. Because again, it has been a very long process. And very detailed fine-tooth comb process to go through all of these phones. To go through every chat. I mean, you talk to some people and...

It's been very tedious. And when we find these things, they have to be clarified because, again, your names are on these phones. Right. Your pen. Right. One's a pen and a swipe, and then it's all on you. A pen and a swipe? What do you mean?

Yeah, you had a swipe and a pin on the backup on one phone. So like I said, there are things that we need to clarify on that stuff. We need to clarify, just as in the child pornography and the solicitation and the exploitation that you weren't honest with. Like you said, I mean, you were just nervous with the anxiety of getting caught, you know, the Delphi investigation. We found things that you weren't honest about either. What do you mean?

And that I'm going to get into that because, you know, we need to discuss it. Okay.

Um, you had told investigators, and I know you say you don't remember a girl that you talked to, but I know you remember Liberty German, right? And you know you talked to her, and you admitted to talking to her. I don't think I ever did, though. I think I talked to one of her friends, like, I told them. You admitted that you talked to her for a few hours at a sleepover, and then you blocked her because she was annoying. You remember that?

You're right. Yeah. You remember that? Yes. So again, in going through with a fine-tooth comb, that's not what happened.

And I think you wanted to be truthful and it was hard for you because you were scared. I mean, it's a double homicide investigation. Yeah, right. I get that. But here's where you have to be honest about it because now we have all of the information, okay? Right. And I'm telling you right now, you can say you don't remember, but I'm telling you for a fact that you did not just talk to them during a sleepover.

I don't think I ever did.

I'm telling you, that's a fact that you did, okay? Because the Anthony Schatz persona, the fake account that you admitted to making, communicated with Libby German on Snapchat, on Instagram. And like I said, it was not just for a couple of hours, okay? So we need to revisit that. And we need to clarify that because right now what we have

What we can officially go with is you saying that, but we know for a fact it was a lie, okay? That's what we know right now because we have the data, you know? And again, I made the comment in the beginning that Snapchat thinks that it deletes it all, but it doesn't, okay?

So, when do you think... How did you meet Liberty German? You didn't meet in person, but how did you? I don't know. I literally... I don't know. It had to be on Instagram or something. Okay, it was on Instagram. Yeah. Yeah.

And again, you can't tell me that you don't know because you have to know. Because this needs to be cleared. This can't be something that's left, okay? We have the records. I know. It was so long ago. I don't... But again, like I said, it's right here, okay? So she added you on Instagram. When was that, would you say? I...

I literally have no clue. I don't remember talking to her, really. I didn't even know who she was until after I saw that on the news and I was like...

Oh, wow, that name. Like, I remembered that name. Okay, and here's... I mean, again, that's a lie, too, because we know that for a fact, when you were in Vegas, that on your device, you were searching about the Delphi investigation. Yeah, because that's, like, right by our... You know what I mean? That's someone getting killed right out here. But it's not just... It's not just something you saw on the news. Right, yeah. Okay, so, I mean, it's...

It's a news article that you looked up on Safari. Tips pour in after suspect identified in Delphi double homicide. New details and the Delphi killings to be released. The audio clip. You remember the audio clip? Right. How many times would you say you listened to it? Oh, I don't know. Probably a few. I'm not sure. A few as in like one or two?

I don't know. I mean, trying to hear the guy's voice, see what he said. I don't know, probably five or six, probably. Six? Six? It wasn't really that long. Six times. Right. Another article, information sought investigation into the deaths of Liberty German and Abigail Williams.

It was a lot. And you saying that it was a party weekend, nothing but fun and that, that's not what your phone says. It's not what your search history says. Because I'm searching about people dying? Not just people dying, a person that you literally talked to. Yeah, but I didn't realize that at the time, that that's who I was talking to. How do you not? Because I don't think I mean like...

I said I talked to a ton of people. And then like once I realized, I was like, whoa, what the fuck? When would you say that you realized that it was Liberty German, the girl that you were talking to that was killed?

I don't know, probably. I mean, a little bit after probably happening. I mean, probably after it happened and I saw her face and saw her name then. Okay, and then you told investigators that you would never talk to anybody. Yeah, I don't remember talking to her. I remember talking to one of her friends, I thought. You just said you remembered talking to her. Well, that's what...

I remember her being there, like, with her friend, but I don't remember ever talking to her. That's not what you said. You said you talked. I said... No, you said... Kagan, I don't...

I'm not here to argue with you today, okay? I'm not here to lie to you either. Well, okay, well, I'm not here to lie to you either. But I'm telling you, what you told investigators was that you had talked to her the night of the sleepover. That is three years ago. I mean, I don't remember everything I told them, you know what I mean? There's no way.

And again, I'm, again. Why would I think about that? That was the most traumatic experience of my life. And telling me that I killed people? So yeah, why would I ever think about that? Because it was a traumatic experience. Why would I want to revisit? Okay, so then why lie? Them telling me that. Them telling me that I failed a polygraph? Then why lie to investigators about it?

I really didn't think that I did. We're not three years into it or away from it now. We're two weeks after it happened at this point, okay? Right. So why did you tell them that you only talked to her that one night when that... Because that's probably all I remembered. I mean...

I mean, like I said, I talked to hundreds of people. I don't remember talking to one girl, you know what I mean? Just one girl that got killed. You don't... You wouldn't remember that?

Then why care what happened? You said it, you said, I mean, it was so important because... It is. I mean, that's two little kids getting killed in a town that's right by me. And that person's out here somewhere. And one of the girls that got killed, you talked to, including the day of. Okay, then I mean, a lot of people get killed and then people talk to them. What, what do you mean? That doesn't mean that I killed them. I didn't say that.

That's what you're saying. I absolutely did not. I did not say that. You're implying that I know something about that or anything like that. That's what you were implying. No, what I'm trying to do is clarify. And I'm telling you the truth. I get that you don't believe me, okay? But I'm telling you the truth. Whether it's my whatever psyche telling me to put that out of my mind that I don't remember it.

I don't remember what I told them three years ago. I don't even remember talking to her. So you said that you had never sent her any images. I don't think I ever did. There's an image that you sent her. It's in a Ferrari that says sports car. Yeah, because I have a Ferrari. Well, Anthony Schatz did.

Okay. Right? Anthony Schatz had a Ferrari. I don't know. I don't remember that. And here's another one that you sent her. I hate how long it takes to warm this Ferrari up. Here's another one. Okay, I would like to...

Like that's something I would send to everyone. Like I have a Ferrari. Yeah. Like I would have a Ferrari. What do you mean? Anthony shots. Okay. But I don't, I don't remember that you're acting like I remember every little piece of like every little thing of every girl I've ever talked to. Let's get this straight then.

I forgot even about that name until you said that 10 minutes ago. I forgot even about that. So Kagan Klein was not talking deliberately German. Anthony Schatz was, right? Right, yeah. Okay, Anthony Schatz was. Right. So Anthony Schatz, so...

When they were asking, did you send her images, you said no because you didn't, but Anthony Schatz did. No, because I don't remember sending them anything. Okay, well, I'm telling you, there's three off the bat. Here's another one. Here's a couple more, actually. And then here's one specifically sent to her, is it bad that I'm super into you?

Like, I would say that to every one of those girls. I mean, it was the same thing with every one of those girls. But when you're telling me that you never sent her or Anthony Schatz never sent her... Because I don't remember ever sending her anything. I don't remember ever even talking to her. I remember talking to her friend.

Like you think, like think you're going to catch me in a lie and I'm not really lying to you at all. I don't remember it. It's not, I've caught you in a lie. It is a lie. You haven't. You haven't though. You said I've never sent her anything. And you asked me, do I remember that? And I said, no, I do not remember that. So I'm not lying. I'm not, I'm not.

I'm not going to argue with you about these little itty-bitty word sentences, okay? It's not itty-bitty when you're telling me that I know something about people that have died. On camera and audio recorded, you said I did not send Liberty German any pictures. Right. Okay? I don't remember ever doing that. Well, I'm telling you right now, you did. Okay. Okay? All right. So that's a fact. Okay. Okay.

That's not me trying to catch you in a lie. That is a fact. Okay, you are trying to catch me in a lie because you keep asking the same questions. That's you trying to catch me in a lie. I don't remember it. Okay, you can think that I'm lying to you, but I really don't remember it. And I'm telling you, you may not remember it, but it happened. But it happened. Okay, yeah. So this is a fact. Right. Okay. Yeah.

Okay? Right. Fact. Right. So just like talking to Liberty German is a fact. Right. Okay? Anthony Schatz communicated with Liberty German. And that is a fact. Fact.

Yeah, she didn't. Her friend did. Right.

Right. So you knew that they were there, and I mean, you had said that she had sent a picture. I remember that specifically. Again, that's a fact. I'm not trying to catch you. That's a fact. Right. Okay? Just like, again, it's a fact that you're communicating to her multiple days at a time, just like other girls that you were talking to, including up to the day that she went missing, right before. And...

What I want you to know is you would have communicated with her on the iPhone 5, right? That was your primary device? Yeah. That's a fact. Okay, what other devices would you communicate with her on? I don't know. I have no clue of even talking to her. What other devices would you communicate with anybody else on at the time on the iPhone? Yeah. Okay, well, on February 13th,

This would have been logged in a little bit earlier, so that would have been about 8 o'clock in the morning at your house, okay? Where you and your dad lived. Two separate devices. See the numbers here, how they're the same? Log in, log out, log in, log out. One device. Log in, log out. All within a couple minutes of each other. To the same Anthony Schott's Snapchat account.

What two devices were these? This is a fact. Yeah, I don't know. It had to be that Samsung Galaxy then or something. So why would you log devices? That makes no sense. Talking, having my Snapchat, my actual Snapchat open at the same time. This is a fact.

This is the exact same snap. This is the Anthony Schatz account. Two different devices. Yeah, I know, but I'm saying like using mine and then using another phone at the same time. Talking. You know what I mean? Yeah, but why would you do that? I mean, to talk to more girls. But it's the same account. Same account, but you're using two different devices. No, but what I'm saying is I logged out of that to log into my other phone. And what was the other phone?

Okay, another fact then. You said I did not talk to anyone about them missing. About the girls being missing. Right. Okay, so...

Snapchat return, you had talked to one of her friends who had said to you that you were talking to... That's who I remember. Yes, correct. Right. She said, did you hear about Liberty? You responded on Anthony Schott's OMG What Happened.

That's talking to someone about the two girls that were missing and then wound up dead. Right. I guess you're right. Okay, so same person or the girl that you were talking to says that Anthony Schatz was meeting up with Liberty German. That's a fact. Okay.

That's a total lie. That's a total lie. That's a total fucking lie. And then the conversation, it goes. That's a total lie. I'm not lying to you. It's a fact, okay? That's a lie. So I need you to listen. It's not a fact. Same conversation of OMG, what happened? Anthony Schott says, yeah, we were supposed to meet.

That's a fucking lie. That's a damn lie. How do you know? How can you... Because I know for a fact I did not ever talk to. So how do you... No, no, no. Hang on. Because you don't know a lot of things about all of this stuff, but all of a sudden you know for a hundred percent fact... Because I didn't fucking murder someone. Yeah. So yeah, I know for a fucking fact. Okay. Have I said one time that you murdered... You are implying... Absolutely not.

I can honestly say, I can honestly sit here. If you were someone else and I asked them, you would see that you were implying for the past 30 minutes that I have done this. Listen to me.

I can honestly sit here and I'm telling you, I don't believe that you killed Liberty or Abby. Okay, thank you. Thank you. I can tell you that right now. Thank you. Okay? Yes. But I need you to tell me who was logging into these accounts. I don't know anything like I told you before. Now you don't know again. I told you I logged in from two different phones. I had two different phones I was talking on. So who was talking to the girl...

About how you were supposed to meet Libby and she didn't show up. I don't remember ever saying that. So now you don't remember again? Yeah, because it never happened. Do you see how this is really confusing? I never fucking told her I would hang out with her. Never anything like that. You remember certain things and then certain things you don't remember. That's awfully convenient, Kagan. It's really convenient. Okay.

And now back to the transcript. Like, high school? Yeah.

He was. I was friends with his sister. Who's that? Jane Smith. Did you date her? No. I was really good friends with her, though. Okay, what about Sue Smith? Who's that? Her mom. Well, her stepmom. Okay, who's Betty Smith? I mean, I'm guessing someone. Maybe her cousin.

Okay, what about Lucy Smith? Her little sister. Whose? John and Jane's. Okay, so John and Jane, okay. So that's brother and sister? Yeah, I think they were half, but yeah. Okay, so who's Sarah Smith? Who? Sarah Smith. I don't know. If you went to school with John Smith... Yeah, he was grades lower than me, but yeah. Yeah, I even think he was like...

A grade or two lower than me. So what connected you with that entire family? I actually used to stay with them a lot. Who? When I lived in Galveston. When they lived in Galveston. Stayed with? The family, the Smiths. Jane was really like, like really one of my good, real, real good friends in like sixth grade, fifth grade, seventh grade.

So like, I already know where you're and you're right, I did talk to her, yes. Who? Not say like that I remember when you guys say it's that girl, Lucy. I did talk to her back in the day. Like you dated her? No, like I tried to talk to her. Okay.

And that's like where you said a little bit ago about the family or whatever. Yeah. That would be, I guess, an instance of me knowing a family and, you know. Okay. So a person associated with that family, directly associated with the family, was talking to Anthony Schatz. Right. Probably Lucy. Had to be. And was looking to hook up with Anthony Schatz, right?

So she sends an address to Anthony Schatz because she's coming home after school and she wants to hook up because her parents aren't home after school for a couple of hours. Who's that? Lucy? Someone associated with the Smith family.

Okay. And she gets off, the girl associated with the Smith family gets off the school bus and there's a guy with a ski mask peering in her bedroom window. Okay, so you're trying to say that's me or something? No, I'm not saying it's you. I'm saying that there's just another coincidence that we have of...

See, I don't even remember her ever giving me an address. But it's... We have it.

And she did. She did, and in fact, there was actually a police report filed. When it happened, because she comes home from school, she sees this guy with a ski mask looking in her bedroom window, directly after giving this Anthony shots. As a matter of fact, that's the incident that started everything else last time. That's how everything started last time, was that incident. That's crazy.

I mean, and on top of that, you searched about the Smiths on February 19th, 2017. What do you mean I searched? The day before that happened, your phone shows that you searched the Smith family. What do you mean? I'm telling you, your phone searched. Like on Facebook or something? Mm-hmm.

Right, okay. Another coincidence? Yeah, I see what you're trying to put together, but I swear to God I was not looking in someone's fucking window. We didn't say that. Will you stop? You're implying that I... God, I know what you're saying. I know I get what you're trying to do, but I'm telling you, I was never in a ski mask looking in her fucking house. No. I've known them. I could literally call her dad right now and go over there. But...

But they don't know that you're Anthony Schatz. Exactly. But I'm saying if I wanted to get her or whatever, I would fucking just go over there myself. But she wouldn't give it to Kagan. She would, though. She's told me before that she liked me. That's the whole reason why I would talk, try to talk to her because I knew she liked me. That doesn't mean I'm in a ski mask at her fucking house. What were you so concerned about with...

When you're in Vegas, or let's even go before you were in Vegas, about being somehow connected to Liberty German. Because I talked to her friend on the phone. But that wouldn't really mean... I mean, you said so yourself. Anyone can talk to a friend of someone that you were... But I mean, if someone got murdered, I would tell them, you know, anyone that I've ever come in contact with recently. You know what I mean? Yeah, but it went more than that. Kagan, you were...

You were very concerned. I mean, the search is in your phone, and this is... Yeah, I'm concerned. What do you mean? Someone gets killed around us. I'm concerned, yes. Do you know what? When you gave your polygraph, you said Liberty. Like, what's her name? I don't remember her name.

And then after you spent all of that time reading over it... Because my brain is going crazy. What do you mean? What I mean is there's no way you didn't know her name. And you were sitting there saying Liberty or whatever, whatever her name is in your polygraph. I don't remember that. And before the polygraph, I mean, you're looking up articles about it. I mean...

You're even... Before you guys went to Vegas, you guys, you know, foul play, foul play suspected, updates. That's crazy. Foul play suspected. Another one, Delphi community concerned. Right. So...

So, I mean, you're telling me that... So everyone that looked it up is a suspect? I didn't say that, but... I know, but I'm saying, like, just because I, you know what I mean, I'm freaked out about someone dying. If you think that was on its face, right, which I kind of do, is say it doesn't make sense that you would look at that.

But we're marrying that up with... It makes sense that I would look at that because it's in my community. It makes sense for us to question you about looking that up when you're one of the last people who ever spoke to her before she wound up dead. Or excuse me, Anthony Schatz was one of the last... The Anthony Schatz account is one of the last people to speak to her before she winds up dead, right? Yeah.

And then you said it could be because a friend of a friend says, well, hey, I talked to such and such and they're friends, but you're searching about can law enforcement trace IP addresses from social media? Well, yeah. Why wouldn't I look that up? If I'm looking at stuff online.

On the internet. That's because you knew you were talking to her. I'm talking about that. I'm talking about, I would look that up because of what I'm doing. You know what I mean? I'm talking to underage girls. So why would I not? Including the one that got murdered. Okay. Right? That makes sense. I did not look that up because of that. No. Internet survey, a server, John, murder of John Bonnet Ramsey.

OJ Simpson after that. Why that? Those are unsolved cases. What do you mean? How would you know? How do I know? They're the most popular. No, I'm saying how did you know that this case was going to be unsolved? Because this is just a few days. Because they put out the pictures of him. They put out a picture of him on the bridge and a voice saying,

Yeah, someone murdered someone and they have a picture of them or their voice. I'm going to look to see if I know that person. Like, what do you mean? The guy's on there telling everyone, the state guy or the state police department guy's on there telling everyone, if you know anyone that looks like this or anything, call in. What we want to know is who had access to the Anthony Schatz account. Me. On two different devices. Yes. At the same time. Yeah. Yeah.

So if you were the sole owner of that account, the only one who had access to it... I mean, on those days, that just looks like me logging into one of my phones. I was logged in on that phone, I logged out, and I logged in on my other phone. That's what that looks like. So you were the ones that sent these pictures to her?

You are the one that talked to her before the sleepover. You're the one that talked to her all that weekend. And you're the one that talked to her, one of the last people to talk to her before she got murdered. So that's what you're telling me. I guess. Yeah. I mean... You gotta understand from our perspective, 100%. I mean, I'm gonna buy this for you. I'm gonna take you out in cars. I mean, that's the whole purpose of Anthony Shots, right? Right.

Which, whether you're, he's targeting, looking for a girl that's going to believe this story. Right. So you were trying to get nudes from Liberty and spoke to her actually one of the very. Any girl I talked to. It's not just one girl. It's any girl I ever talked to. It's a girl that wanted a man. Right. Right. I mean, we're not, the reason this is a big deal. I mean, the other one's not dead. She's dead. Right. Right.

I mean, the largest, the biggest case in Indiana. Right. Hands down. Right. The media attention. I mean, there's no stone left unturned in this investigation. Right. And the only thing of all the investigators, all the hours put into this...

you have to think of yourself you're a juror and you know yourself in this scenario and you're just listening to the evidence right you have a guy that small town usa right small town usa you know so if you're from a small town you get it if you're not you don't right yeah okay um you know your dad's facebook friends with some of abby's mother's friends right

So that's the kind of stuff you would expect to see in small town USA. Right. All right. All right. Your girlfriend, your current girlfriend is Facebook, is friends on Facebook with one of Liberty's ex-boyfriends. Small town USA, right? So there's still stuff that, you know,

Right.

So now we're worried about grooming. We have a guy that has troves of child pornography on his device. We have Liberty being groomed, and unfortunately, she was completely enthralled with Anthony Schatz. Completely. Thought, you know, I'm talking to this rich, hot guy.

I'm, you know, she was completely in love with Anthony shots. Right. So this account that you set up, you know, and I'm sure you've seen the social media had said something like, you know, waiting for Peter Pan to come. And it was like, this is like almost like a little hanging fruit statement for someone that would target girls. You probably see that and think this is going to be an easy target. I don't get what you mean. What more of a targeting thing, right? Like,

More maybe you didn't get into that depth, but I don't know how much depth you went into looking for little girls you wanted to get nude images from as Anthony shots. But just like a buckshot method and see who comes back. But regardless, she bought the story. She bought the account. So we have a friend saying that she...

Saying that she was trying to meet up with Anthony Schatz. See, I don't remember ever saying to meet up with me, though. Okay, but I'm telling you that this is what we had. Right, yeah. We have. We have that. I mean, we have that. We have multiple device logins from your house. Right. Okay? Okay?

Um, we have the day that you gave your polygraph and your interview. You were steadfast and I met them in the beginning of February, like the first or second. You were steadfast. You never came off of that. I never spoke to her beyond February 1st or 2nd. And then the guy says, look, we know you spoke to her the day that she was murdered. You said, absolutely not. I blocked her.

She was annoying me after the first or second, right? We have these images. We have these grooming pictures. We have the money. The Anthony Schatz money account going to her.

Right? So this starts to stack after a while. I mean, small town USA independent of each other, yeah, but then it starts to stack, right? We have the kick messenger. Messages with all of these my daddy references. Right. With regardless of what you say, there are two different authors of those messages. Regardless of what you say, right? They're both not you.

They're both your devices. They're mixed, but the phrasing's different. It changes. It's not the same person. So we know we have multiple accounts, logins with Snapchat. We have two different people using Kick Messenger talking to people from your residence. I mean, all of that, 100% sure we know it. We know it for a fact. So remove yourself from it.

In trying to pick out every individual piece, it starts to stack and it just keeps stacking. The phone, your phone that you had, all of your search history was deleted from February 10th to February 15th. There's nothing in between.

So now what's interesting about that is all of those other phones have complete histories. Nothing's gone. Okay. So during the time frame where this grooming would have been built up to meeting, it's gone. It's wiped away from your phone. But your other devices are complete. So now it starts to stack. The complexity of your Anthony Schatz persona, the cars, the influence of Lamborghinis, Ferraris...

It's not you. It's not your idea. You and I both know it's not your idea. What do you mean? That's not my idea to take pictures of money and stuff and send them to people? The complexity of it, okay? It's not just you. I don't know. Is it? I mean, like I said, I mean, the only other person that had access to my phone is him. That's literally it. Not at that time. No, I promise you, anytime.

Not in Vegas. Right. Not in Vegas. Yeah. When you're searching nonstop about the Delphi investigation, when you're supposed to be on vacation, when you're actually sending Snapchats to Liberty, when you know she's dead messages. I don't ever remember doing that. Well, I'm telling you, you did. It's a fact. Like that could be me sending that message to a ton of people.

Like on Snapchat. And we do that all the time. Send them to like 40, 50 people at once. But again, that's one in there that... I know what you mean. I had nothing to do with that. So, I mean, I know... I get she's dead and I get you guys want to find someone, but I literally have no clue. When you walked in here and said, I'm not a car guy... I'm not. Look at... I know what a Lamborghini is. What do you mean? Well, of course, everybody does, but... A Lamborghini 458 Italian.

That's what the car is. And I'm not a car guy. I don't even have my license. No, I'm a broke guy. I don't, I'm not, I have no cars. Yeah, I mean, I know what cars are. Well, let me ask you, why would you, after you failed the polygraph about knowing about the Delphi investigation, come home and delete your Snapchat and your Instagram, which you use to communicate with Libby, and then you searched, how long does DNA last?

Why would you do that? I have no clue. I don't know. Because probably they DNA tested me. Right. So they obviously have DNA on that body. Because why else would they DNA test me? So why would you worry about your DNA being on that body? I wouldn't. Then why'd you search? A common question. That's just a common thing to freak out about. Like why?

You know what I mean? No, I don't because you giving DNA... Right. So you obviously know I didn't do it. Why would you care how long DNA lasts? What if it lasts 100 years? What would that matter to you if it was on the body? Then it would matter, right? But you knew 110% that your DNA wouldn't be there, right? Right. So why does it matter how long it lasts? Because I wondered if the person had DNA on their body. If they actually knew who the person was.

That doesn't make sense. How doesn't it? Because it doesn't. It doesn't. Because in my mind, I'm thinking these people think I killed someone. So if they actually have DNA on the body, they're going to know that I didn't do it. But if there's no DNA on the body, then it's obvious that like,

Okay, well, that's weird. Failed the polygraph. But again, that just adds to it. Everything he just said, it's stacking. This whole thing. It's not, though. If you get what I'm saying, I mean, it's really not. I don't understand. I literally have no clue how that girl died. I don't know anything. Anything to do with it. Yeah, this is a weird-ass coincidence that I happened to talk to her. Like, I get that.

In this next part, investigators talk with Kagan about the alibi he gave on the day of the murders. He claims he was with his dad all day, and there are some clear inconsistencies.

And then we go again, something else that stacks on top of this is when you talk to investigators, I mean, this is all fresh in your mind. You just got back from Vegas. You've been nonstop searching this stuff. You've been talking about it with other girls that knew Libby. You've been searching it before you went to Vegas.

And then you tell investigators, I was with my dad all day. I went to grandma and grandpa's at noon. No, I told them I didn't know what. I mean, I don't ever leave. So like, yeah, I'm probably out at his house really. But I mean, I don't remember everything I did. Well, I'm refreshing your memory. Like I told them that I would go and see my grandpa and grandpa like a lot. No, for a fact.

Video recorded on your interview, you told them a few days after this happened, you were with your dad all day and you went to your grandparents. On your interview, you either said 12 to 2 or 12 to 3, then you came back home. That's what you said. Right. That's not a, I don't remember. That's what you said, right? No, because...

He was like, hey, you really need to think about this. Right, and that's what you said. Well, your phone does not line up with that. And again, that's another fact. You don't have to remember it. Okay, where was my phone at? Please tell me. So it was at your residence. All day, because I don't ever leave there. Until you went somewhere near your grandparents' house, but you did not go to your grandparents' house. Friend one. Where? Friend one's house.

Okay. That's the only other place I go. He sold me weed. That's literally the only other place I go. So why lie several times? I don't, I didn't think I ever lied, but I'm saying if I left my house on that day, it was to my grandparents or to friend number ones. You said in an interview audio recorded to two law enforcement officers, including an FBI agent, you

You said I was here at home from this time to this time. I went to my grandparents' house, and then I went straight back home. And I was with my dad the entire time. Done. I know for a fact because you said it. That's what you said. Okay.

But now you're telling me you... Where were you last Monday at 7.45 p.m.? Probably at home, but again... Okay. I was probably at home. But this... But what I'm telling you... I mean, do you get what I'm saying, though? Like... No, I don't. I mean, you don't? Okay. Okay, where were you Monday at 7.45? Kagan, this... This isn't about me. Why don't you know? You see what I'm saying, though? No. Like, people don't remember every little thing about life. When I had nothing to do with it, so...

Why would I even remember what I was doing? If I did that, don't you think I would know exactly where I was at? Yes, and that's what you told people, but it was a lie. Okay, so where was my phone at? I told you. It was at your house, and then it went to where? It wasn't Grandma and Grandpa's, I'll tell you that much. Where was? Was it in Peru? Yep.

And just another side note here, keep in mind that authorities were just searching the Wabash River in Peru, Indiana this week. Exactly. Country Club Road, whose house was that? Country Club Road, I have no clue. That's where my grandma lives on out by Paw Paw Pike, yeah? Right, but it wasn't there.

Country Club Road and Paw Paw Pike meet. I understand that, but you connected to a Wi-Fi source that was in that house. No, I did not. I'm telling you 1000%. I don't go anywhere besides friend number one and my grandma's. So why would you... Why did you tell investigators that you went there when you didn't? Because I... Well, he was like, well, where do you ever go? That's the only places I go. I don't know what I was doing on that date two weeks ago. I don't fucking know.

It's like if someone asked me right now, "What were you doing two weeks ago on a Monday?" I have not the slightest clue.

So then, with your logic, back then when you said that, maybe you weren't with your dad all day then. Right. Right. Yeah. Okay, so, right? I mean, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I went to my... Could it... Could that be possible? Yeah, I mean, the only time I ever really left my dad was when I would go to friend number ones, really, and get weed. That's about it. And would you search... Would it be normal for you to look up porn at your grandma and grandpa's house? No. No.

Because that's what you were doing on your phone. At the time that you said you were there. I wasn't doing that. Then who was? Friend number one. That's what I'm saying I'm telling you.

I don't hang out with no one besides friend number one. So how do you know friend number one did it then? Because you don't remember what happened. All this pointing to him like more and more. Like the more you keep saying like if I'm not at my grandma and grandpa's house, I'm not with my dad, I would be at friend number once. Did I get fucked up that day? I have no clue what I was doing.

Who was friend number two? The friend I went to school with. He's like one of your best friends as well, was he not? I mean, he's a good friend, yeah. Um, how come when you rattled off your list of friends you'd known previously, you omitted friend number two? Why would I?

Yeah, he's pretty much like seeming like one of your best friends, if not your best friend. Yeah, I mean, he was a good friend of mine. So you gave them a list of your friends twice when they interviewed you previously, and you completely omitted friend number two. You didn't even mention him.

And even today, you still haven't mentioned friend number two. And you even asked me why when I asked you. Because there's a reason why you don't look up friend number two, Indiana. Look that up. No, tell me why. I don't have any idea. Because he's a drug dealer big time. I don't want my name associated with someone that sells pounds of weed. I don't want that. I don't want to say that and then

Then the Peru police department be like, okay, well, he messes with someone, you know, sells large amounts of weed. Let's watch him. Let's arrest him. But you just said that friend number one sells you weed and you're fine with associating with him. I mean, friend number one don't have no weed.

And I really don't... You said he sells you weed. Yeah, but I'm saying like... But you associate with him and you... Okay, well, an ounce is a lot different than a pound. The cops aren't going to come raid his house over an ounce of weed. If he's selling you weed, absolutely. Absolutely.

Okay, well, you guys need something better to do if you're raiding people's houses for an ounce of weed. So he gets an ounce of weed. He gets it, and he puts it on the table and goes, that's for you, Kagan. One ounce of that. That's how I'm going to make money as a drug dealer. I'm going to sell one ounce to one particular person. Did I say that?

You said... You said only... He only has an ounce of weed. What I'm saying is a small-time drug dealer is a lot different than someone that's selling pounds of weed. That is a big difference. Then why were you good friends with him? Why do you think? I had no job. I mean, put it together, you know, I mean...

Figure out if... Why'd you blow him off in Vegas? Friend number two? Because I... I couldn't get the weed or nothing. I could not get anything he wanted. And I looked for it out there and I'm sure you looked at my phone when I met that guy, right? I'm sure you know about me meeting some guy in Vegas, right? I think the thing that I'm concerned about over the guy that you're meeting... I'm saying, like, I met the guy to go talk to him about weed.

Okay, but what I'm more concerned about is that we just gave you something from 2017 and you were able to remember it just like that. Because I know friend number two. He's my best friend. But yet you know nothing about that girl that was murdered. You remember- Yeah, because I didn't know her. Yeah, I don't spend years of my life with a person that got murdered. Yeah, I know friend number two. Like, that's my good friend. Yeah, I know stuff about him. What do you mean?

That's totally different. But then you just told us, well, I don't associate with him. Yeah, well, I don't want to tell them his name. What do you mean? I don't want to be like, yeah, I know friend number two. Okay, and they would have just said, okay, friend number two? No, you can put wheels in motion. I mean, it's not hard to find out who he is and what he's been arrested for and all that stuff. You know what I mean? And friend number one's never been arrested? Well, I don't think so, no. Not that I know of. He went into the military and I don't think he ever got arrested.

What'd you mean when you said this was all pointing towards friend number one? Like, do you see how I'm on someone's country, wherever you said country club road on someone's wifi? I never, I've never been to anyone's house on country club road ever. I don't even know where that's at out there. I just know that those roads meet or it's something country with pop-up hike. I literally have no clue. Like, I don't know anyone. I don't know anything about that whole case. I don't know.

Like, yeah, it looks terrible, but I promise you, I know you guys are looking for that person and it's not me. I know absolutely nothing. And I get the whole Smith's thing is like weird too, but I swear I don't know anything. Yes, you do, man. I swear to God I don't. Yes, you do. I really don't. Yes, you do. I don't.

I just, I can't wrap my head around why you're willing to put all of this on you. Why are you protecting somebody else? Who am I protecting? What are you talking about? I mean, obviously you said that you didn't kill them, right? Yeah, but the

What the fuck? Yeah. Okay. Of course. Okay. You think I know who killed them? Absolutely. Oh my God. Absolutely. And you know why I know that? Well, you're obviously a terrible at your job. If you really honestly think that you're absolutely terrible at your job, sir. Sorry to have to say that, but. Do you know who killed those girls? No. Hang on. I'm not literally asking you right now. Do you know for sure who killed those girls? No. No.

"Uh, yeah, I'm sorry, yeah, no."

You did say no both times in your polygraph, and guess what? That was deception. Hey, a lot of people fail those lie detectors. What are you talking about? Why do you think they can't use those in court? There's a reason that you can't have a polygraph in court, because people fail like me who have anxiety problems that are freaking out. But those people that fail for other cases, or whatever you're referencing, weren't talking to the victim of the crime on the day of.

They weren't grooming them. OJ Simpson. Yes, he was. Well, you looked that up too. Yeah, I know about... What do you mean? You don't know who OJ Simpson is? Or no? They weren't sending pictures to the victim. Didn't say, is it bad that I'm super into you? I just don't understand why you're protecting this person. I mean, what's...

Was it as simple as she just said, hey, I'm going to the high bridge and you told somebody? I literally have no clue about anything about that. But yet you were... You can come in here and literally talk for 24 hours straight. I don't know anything about that. But yet you remember 110% that you had a conversation with a guy in Vegas on February of...

February 23rd about weed. About buying weed. Yeah, because I'm supposed to make thousands of dollars, yes. Buying to get to smoke weed? No, to sell weed. I talked to him about friend number two. He said, so why did you bring up friend number two? I met that guy to talk about weed to friend number two. I couldn't find it from that guy. He didn't have what friend number two needed. That's it.

You don't associate yourself with friend number two. Not to the cops I don't. Of course I don't. Why would I associate? No. So why blow off friend number two? Because I couldn't get it. I met up with that guy. That's the only guy I could find. Met him on Craigslist. Why not meet and tell him that? Yeah, I couldn't. I couldn't. Go party and have some fun. Because he's waiting on it. If he's waiting on me, hey, I need you to find me this. Are you scared of somebody?

What are- what they're gonna do if you say something? No, I literally don't know anything. Like, I was supposed to make thousands of dollars by finding him weed. That's it. I'm- I'm not talking about the weed anymore. I know, but I'm saying- that's what I'm saying. Who were you afraid of, of telling me who used the Anthony Schatz account?

Nobody. I told you friend number one is the only other person that could have my phone. That's literally it. Not in Vegas. Okay. He's not talking to Liberty, so who was? I don't remember talking to them. Okay, then who was? I don't know. Obviously it was me, but I don't remember it. You know what I mean? I just don't remember talking to him.

This next part describes the story where Tony Klein abused his stepson years earlier. We had this case a while back, and um, this guy, this...

this little kid was um in the bathroom he overflowed the toilet so he yells for help the dad gets pissed and um comes out the kid the mom intervenes the dad punches the mother you know she runs away he chases her down hits her bites her in the stomach runs back inside slams the kid's head into the toilet fractures his orbital socket

puts him upside down, and starts dunking his head into the toilet that was overflowed. Jesus Christ. Now, what would you think about that guy? He should get hung right now. He should be killed.

So, that guy should get killed? Yeah, 1000%. What do you think that person is capable of? What is that person capable of? Yeah, what do you think that person, a person like that is capable of? Probably anything, because he killed some kid. No, he didn't kill the kid, the kid lived. Oh shit. Well, I mean, he obviously tried to kill the kid, whether he lived or not. I still think he should die either way, because he obviously attempted murder on the kid. So...

And I want you to know I'm literally not lying to you. Like, I know this is your job and you're... I swear, I know. Like, I know how bad this looks. Kagan. No, well, you please listen to me for one second. I know how bad... I know, okay, all right. Because people lie to you every single day. I... Well, it's not only just people, but I sit here and you... I hear you say that. I'm truly hearing you say that. Right. Okay? Okay?

And my gosh, is it familiar because you said the same thing to investigators when you talked about this before. Exactly. And I'm not talking about the Delphi stuff. I'm talking about the child porn and the child solicitation. You talked to underage girls and you said the same thing to them before you admitted to it.

So that's why it's hard for me to believe that because I hear what you're saying and you said the same thing then when I know for a fact you were lying because you eventually told the truth. Well, yeah. Eventually you did. Well, yeah. So you're telling me that you... Once they put the pictures out and they're like, hey, here's the evidence we got. Yeah. I'm like, of course. Absolutely. Right. And that's why it's hard to believe that...

Then, like Deputy Clinton said, you have this whole stack. I mean, you can argue like...

The small town thing, again, absolutely. You can argue that you're a concerned citizen and that this happened in your backyard. You can argue that for sure. But when you throw into that that you literally talked to her right before she was killed... I understand. I get how that looks. Trust me. Then you tell investigators that you only talked to her once and then you blocked her. That's what I remember. Okay, I get what you're saying, but what I'm saying in my memory, that's what happened.

I don't remember ever talking to her like that. I remember. So why do you have altered memory? I feel that you feel somewhat responsible. For what? For them dying. Why would I feel responsible for something I know nothing about? What do you mean? You don't... I mean, when you tell me I know nothing about this, right? That doesn't make sense because you searched it. You researched... I did not...

I, oh my god. So every single person that like Google searched about them dying is a suspect? But those people don't tell me, well, I know nothing about the case. I don't know anything about the case. I never talked to the girl that died. Because I don't remember ever talking to the girl that died. I'm telling you, you did. Okay, I get what you're telling me, but I don't remember that. So I'm not lying to you if I don't remember it. How am I lying to you?

Okay, so I'll give you a scenario, and then you tell me you sit in my shoes, okay? I know, trust me. Just know, I want to give you a scenario, and I want you to tell me your honest opinion. Okay. Okay? So you're working a case. Let's say it was a gas station robbery. Right. Okay? And you're the investigator, and you see a video camera of this guy walking in,

He robs that place and he shoots someone and kills them. Okay. And then you need to talk to him. And he goes, I don't remember any of that. What do you do? I mean... I'm not saying that you killed anybody. But what I'm trying to say is what would you do in my shoes? Right. I would investigate it. You have him on video, right? You have the evidence. All the evidence showing that it was him. Yeah. But he tells you he doesn't remember. So where's any of the evidence that you have? That's not evidence. That's me talking to the...

That's not evidence of me killing anyone. I've never even, I can't even remember a time that I've been to Delphi. And again, I didn't say you did. Listen. So again, we're talking evidence, right? Right. We have evidence physically of you physically talking to a girl that was murdered. Right. Right before she died. And we have witness statements that talk to Anthony shots that said they were talking about meeting up.

Even to the point so far that she said Anthony Schatz told her when they said, oh my God, what happened? He said, I was supposed to meet her, but she didn't show up. That's evidence. I don't think I ever said that. Man, I'm not, I don't, this goes back to the I don't remember thing with the guy at the gas station. I don't think I ever said that. So if you don't remember it, does that, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. And I'm not saying that you did it, but we need to know. Yeah.

The only person right now that you're telling me had access to the Anthony Schatz account was you. And the only person that used the phone for the Anthony Schatz account was you. Yeah, that doesn't mean I killed two people. I didn't say that, but you did say that you were supposed to meet her and she didn't show up.

That's evidence. That's true fact evidence, okay? So let's just focus on that one minute detail. That conversation, that happened, that went back and forth. And again, I'll refresh your mind where the girl contacted Anthony Schatz and said, did you hear what happened to Liberty? And Anthony Schatz responded, OMG, what happened?

Right.

But who then would have had access? Who would have said that then if it wasn't you, who supposedly is the only one who has access to the accounts? Nobody. But that's not, we know that's not. I'm saying like nobody had access but me, so I don't. So then it was you who said that then. What I'm saying is I don't remember saying that, but it had to be me if I'm the only person. Right. That uses it.

So why would you say I was going to meet her, but she never showed up? Why would you say that? Why would I ever go to meet someone? I don't know. You tell me. Exactly. I wouldn't. That's like me. I'm saying I probably said that, but what I'm saying is I would never go meet someone. The girlfriend I have now, I wouldn't even meet because I was like so nervous because of all the stuff that happened. I'm just like... So then did you give the information to someone else? I mean...

Was there some sort of... I could see that happening. I mean, I could see you making a statement of, oh man, this girl wants to meet. She's going to the high bridge today. And whoever you told that to went to the high bridge that day. I would never talk to someone about girls I talked to or nothing. That's not what I would do. But then again, we have to go back to that narrow scope of a conversation we're looking at. Why would you say that to the other person?

Why would you say, as Anthony Schatz, I was going to meet that girl and she didn't show up? I don't know. I don't know. You know, even before that, we have witness statements that Liberty was looking to meet Anthony Schatz. So again, that's another piece that we're making this even bigger now. And we're looking at this, we now have multiple people saying that

Why would Anthony Schatz do that? I don't know. I really don't have a clue. Like I said, I don't remember talking to her, so I don't know why I would say that. Do you see why this needs to be cleared up? Yeah, trust me, I know it needs to be cleared up. We need to find the person that did it, yeah. Well...

The person that did it, as in sending those messages, was you. I'm talking about the person that killed them. Okay, well, I need this cleared up. Well, I told you for the past 30 minutes. I've told you. I'm not lying. I don't know anyone who did this. I didn't do this. I don't know anyone or anything about the Smiths. I don't know any of that. You just said you knew the Smiths. I'm saying I don't know who looked in her fucking window. I don't know anything about that. But

what i'm telling you is that we near we need the we need to clear up the statement of anthony shots we need to do that because we can i said it three times now i never remember saying that even if i said it i don't remember saying it okay but as a law enforcement officer

You investigating a murder at a gas station, just because the person that you have on video and you have the evidence that did it says, well, I don't know. Can you leave it at that? You have to get evidence in a court of law. You have a video. This is his face showing in that video and everything. Well, then take him to court. What do you mean? Right. Right.

So we have to clear it up because someone says they don't remember. It doesn't mean they didn't do it. That's the point I'm trying to make. I get what you're saying. Yes, I totally understand. Because we know for a fact that Anthony Schatz said those things. Right.

And that's why it needs to be cleared up. Right. And again, you saying you don't know doesn't clear it up. Well, that's what you're going to get out of me because I really don't know. I don't remember saying that. That just goes to show you how serious like I... Like I've talked to so many girls, I don't even remember saying that. But I mean...

Again, we go back to the whole thing, you talked to a lot of girls, but unfortunately, one of the girls you were talking to was killed. Yeah. So that's why it needs to be cleared up. So don't you think maybe I would think about that in my mind? Absolutely. And that's why you searched, can you trace IP addresses from social media? Yeah.

That's why you listened to the audio clip. That's why you did search server information to see how much information gets stored on servers.

Because you were thinking about it, especially on a vacation when you're supposed to be having fun. You're supposed to be in Vegas having fun. That server thing isn't, the server thing is about work and stuff. Right. I mean, searching about servers and stuff, that would have something to do with my work. So right after, right after, and I'm talking minutes.

that you were searching, the police continued to pursue leads in Delphi girls' murder, girls missing after posting Snapchat messages article. I mean, that's girls missing after posting Snapchat messages, an article you searched, can you trace IP from social media? So you were thinking about the Delphi investigation. I probably was.

Constantly. A few minutes later there, you were searching about internet servers. So randomly you're reading all these articles about Delphi. I was obviously like, well, I talked to her friend and stuff. So they obviously could see that I talked to her friend on Snapchat. That's probably why I searched that because I probably like, oh, fuck, I talked to that person's friend.

But again, you didn't just talk to that person. You talked to her. I know, but what I'm saying is I don't remember talking to her. So in my brain, I was probably... You told investigators you did. Okay, but I don't though. I don't remember that now. I don't remember even when I told them.

I don't even like... I don't remember what I did last week. I don't... But do you see how you're picking and choosing things you remember? No. I wish you would see from my point of view. The friend number two thing has nothing to do with me remembering anything. No, I'm...

I'm not talking about that. I mean, you sat here and said that the woman that interviewed you was very motherly. You said she was very motherly. I do remember her being really nice. You remember that she told you that you need to stop. And you remember that she told you that you have a problem. So you remember all of these things. But then you sit here and tell me I don't remember any of that.

But that's... I never said I didn't remember about the lady. The interview. She was a part of the interview. So was the other guy screaming at me the whole time, trying to be the good cop, bad cop? He did not scream at you in that interview. Okay, maybe not scream, but you know what I mean. He's trying to do the whole thing, get in your face and try to get you. I'm not stupid. When you're interviewed in the bus and everything...

Like that, no one got in your face. I'm not talking about that. I am. I'm talking about in here. Okay, I am. Well, I'm not. I don't even remember what I said to them. I'm talking about in here. I remember everything I told them. You're...

You're contradicting yourself. I remember them showing me the pictures in the bus. Mm-hmm. That's what I remember. And you remember her being motherly. I remember her saying, well, if you can't come do this, come take a polygraph. And I was like, well, I'll do whatever you want. I'll take DNA. I'll do whatever. That's what I remember her saying in that bus. I'm going to step out and, I mean...

I seriously need you to stop picking and choosing memory. Okay, I'm not. I'm telling you, you are. I'm really not. Okay, and when you're being presented with these facts that we have and you're telling me I don't remember, that doesn't make them disappear, okay? Okay, I get that, but I can't rethink. I can't re-remember something. Try, because this is important.

Okay. If you're going to tell me that the double homicide of these girls are not important... When did I say that one time? You don't want to remember it. Is it not worth remembering? I told her everything I remembered. Okay, well you need to sit here and you need to start remembering more because this is important. There's nothing else I know. Okay. Alright.

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So, I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but um, unfortunately, if this goes to trial and you're found guilty or whatever, this will probably be about 40 some years. This may be your last trip outside. So this officially wraps up our Delphi series. But as you can see, this transcript is pretty telling in terms of who investigators are zeroing in on in this case.

Now, like we mentioned in our last episode, authorities recently took Kagan out of jail to question him. And around the same time, they also began searching the Wabash River in Peru, Indiana, which is just two miles away from Tony Klein's home.

And according to the Murder Sheet podcast, who have connections to the case, they said that the search is related to the Delphi investigation. Now we aren't sure what they're looking for, but they are using metal detectors and scuba gear, so we hope that whatever they find in the river, if anything, will bring about an arrest in the case.

so that Libby and Abby can finally have justice, along with all of the other girls that were victimized by these monsters. Again, big shout out to the Murder Sheet podcast for uncovering this transcript. They do such an incredible job researching this case. They go in so much depth, so make sure to give them a listen, and we will definitely keep you guys updated on everything that comes out in terms of developments.

But for now, we will wrap up this story and we will see you guys next week with a brand new episode. An in-depth search of the Wabash River extends now into a second week. News 18's Joe Paul visited Peru today to share more about the heavy state police presence there. Yeah, for about 10 days, divers with Indiana State Police have been scouring the Wabash Riverbed here in Peru. But

ISP won't say what the divers are looking for. Probably for about the last two weeks. Peru resident Dave Noonan walks this pedestrian bridge about four times a week. I live on this side, and my trail basically takes me on this side of the bridge. An extensive police search beneath the nearby Kelly Avenue bridge catches his attention. I saw them. They started basically on the...

the south side and it was about eight guys and they were all dressed in the exact same wetsuits. On Tuesday, more of the same, about 10 divers with wetsuits and scuba gear or metal detectors and plastic buckets. They searched the middle of the river, near a log jam and along the bank. Markers show the dive team's progress from one side to another. So it's been going on for a couple weeks. It seems like they've worked their way slowly across.

At least 15 police trucks and cruisers park in the grass near the riverbank. The heavy police presence raises questions among locals. They had a bunch of people out here with, as you see, the same flags. I have no clue what's going on, but...

Whatever investigators are looking for, they're preparing for the long haul, including tables and coolers in a staging area near the search site. Noonan says he hopes police find what they're after. I hope that they find something so that they can solve this case.

Hey everybody, it's Colin here. Thank you for listening to another episode of Murder in America. Now, we're going to be done with the Delphi murder series this week. This was our last episode on the case, but it's so interesting. We felt like we really needed to dive as deep as possible into this story so that all of y'all knew every single detail like we did. Hopefully there's going to be some updates very soon because of the ongoing investigation and the stuff we talked about last week. But until then, we'll see you next time.

Yeah, this is definitely our longest episode ever. We hope you all enjoyed this little experiment that we did. And once again, thanks for listening. I want to shout out all of our new patrons this week. Kelly Pelletier, Sierra Love, Carly Turingi, Lisa Collins, Adrian Gonzalez, DX Nia, Casey Brown, Sharona Pfluger, Superheroes in Training, and Allison Glasgow. Wow. We, uh...

We have so many patrons. We love talking to you guys online. We're actually about to start revamping our Patreon and changing it up a little bit. So thanks to everybody who's been with us and helped support the show on there. If you don't know what Patreon is, we upload the ad-free version of every single episode on our Patreon as soon as it goes live across all streaming platforms. So if you're interested,

I've seen some reviews where people say they don't like the ads, and if you don't like the ads, it's a very simple solution to go sign up for Patreon. We have some incredible episodes coming up. It's now the start of the spooky season, so yeah, just get ready for some of the stuff that we're doing in the next few weeks. I know Courtney is super excited about one of the episodes that she's writing right now, but also you can follow us on Instagram at Murder in America if you want to see photos from the cases that we talk about.

And if you have a spare second and you listen on Apple Podcasts, just head to the podcast page for Murder in America. Give us a five-star review and let us know how much you love the show. We love reading your guys' feedback and we love reading your guys' words. It's an awesome thing. Yeah. Thanks, y'all, again. And we'll see you next week. It's Colin here signing off and catch you on the next one.