EP. 171 : OHIO - The Grandma Killer
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Warning. The following podcast is not suitable for all audiences. We go into great detail with every case that we cover and do our best to bring viewers even deeper into the stories by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects. Trigger warnings from the stories we cover may include violence, rape, murder, and offenses against children. This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned. In America's Midwest, there's a town called Wadsworth, Ohio.

which is a suburb of Akron. Generally, people move to Wadsworth because it's a safe community with amazing public schools and friendly neighbors. Many people who move here want to get away from the bustling cities and live a quiet, simple life. Some come to start a family or to settle down in their retirement years. But in 2018, the sense of safety in Wadsworth, Ohio was shattered

when petty crimes began to infiltrate their neighborhoods. It started out with a few car break-ins here and there, but over time, the crimes began to escalate. Soon enough, whoever was responsible started breaking into businesses. Then they started carjacking.

The Wadsworth Police Department had a troubled individual on their hands, and they knew they needed to find them so their community could feel safe again. But I don't think they truly understood just how demented this individual truly was. And by the time they figured it out, it was too late.

On the morning of April 9th, 2018, a wellness check was done on 98-year-old Margaret Douglas. She had been a member of this community for over 50 years. And sadly, after looking through her home, she was finally located, dead, in a downstairs closet. However, this was no accident. Margaret had been found shoved into the cramped closet.

with clothes and other items piled on top of her. Disturbingly, when they pulled her out from under, they found that her clothes and underwear had been torn from her body. It was clear that she had not only been murdered, but was also sexually assaulted.

And the investigation into Margaret's murder would prove to be one of the most disturbing stories we've ever heard. So, this is her story. I'm Courtney Browen. And I'm Colin Browen. And you're listening to Murder in America. Murder in America

Margaret Mary Frick Douglas was born on September 15, 1919, in Akron, Ohio. She was the second oldest of four children, two sisters named Ida and Ethel and one brother named Howard.

For her entire life, people said that Margaret always had a zest for life and was fiercely independent. She knew exactly what she wanted, and she was never afraid to go after it. During her younger years, Margaret worked at a department store in downtown Akron called O'Neill's, which was the perfect job for her. Because she loved working with people, she was friendly, outgoing, helpful, and, according to some, opinionated. Margaret wanted the best for the people in her life.

and she was always going to offer some helpful advice when she could. After World War II ended in 1945, she married a man named Donald Douglas, an Army veteran, and the two relocated to Wadsworth, Ohio, in Medina County. Wadsworth is a picturesque town that was started in the 19th century. Back then, it was a small farming community, but today, it's a quaint suburb filled with retail shops, restaurants, banks, and grocery stores. The

The Wadsworth City Schools are also known for their high-quality education, with emphasis on athletics, arts, and academics. Now Margaret and Donald decided to not have children of their own, but they loved Wadsworth. It was a quiet little town with good people, so they ended up settling down in a home on 359 Portage Street.

Margaret and Donald were happy there. After decades of being married, the two would eventually retire. And in their later years, they were known to sit on their porch, waving to their neighbors and taking in the fresh air. But they still kept themselves busy

On weekends, they would catch up with old friends. They would travel to Cleveland to watch their favorite baseball team, the Cleveland Indians. Now, like we mentioned, Margaret was very independent. And even though she was getting older, she was still going strong. But she also knew that if she ever needed any help,

her and Donald were surrounded by their friend, family, and good neighbors that they could rely on. When her husband Donald died on May 3rd, 2000, Margaret's loved ones really rallied behind her, checking up on her whenever they could. But she was adamant that she could take care of herself and that she was going to be okay.

and she would be. Of course, Donald's death was difficult. He had been right by her side for most of her life, but she made the most of her time. Her loved one said that she absolutely loved gardening. She would often just go out there and admire all of her beautiful colored flowers that came to life in her backyard. In 2018, Margaret had been living in her house on Portage Street for over 50 years. She was 98 years old.

By looking at pictures of her, she was truly the cutest little old lady you've ever seen. She was definitely slowing down, reaching the end. But according to her loved ones, she still had that zest for life. When people would come to visit her, Margaret would talk about how excited she was to reach her 100th birthday. But little did she know, she would never reach that milestone.

On the afternoon of April 8th, 2018, Margaret's neighbor, David Clickenbeard, stopped by to check on her. He'd lived next to Margaret his whole life, so he knew her well. And once she started getting older, he would often stop by every week to help her out with things around her house, like taking out her trash. But on this afternoon, when he walked up to her front door, he noticed something strange. There were three newspapers sitting in her driveway. And I came up Sunday and, uh...

Now, normally, Margaret got the paper every day, so the fact that she hadn't made him uneasy. And that feeling intensified when he knocked on Margaret's door. And she didn't answer. I'm sure the first thing that came to David's mind was that Margaret had either gotten injured and couldn't answer the door, or that, worst case scenario, she had passed away.

at 98 years old that wouldn't be unlikely he also considered the fact that maybe margaret had gotten hurt while getting out of the bathtub or changing her clothes so he actually called out to the neighbor across the street named jan and asked her to come help him look for margaret and she agreed so together david and jan walked into margaret's house and started looking for her

As David went from room to room, there was an anxiousness within him. Before he turned each corner, he had to prepare himself that he might find Margaret's dead body. But he goes into the living room and she's not there. He goes into the kitchen and bathroom, but she's not there either. And then finally he walks into Margaret's bedroom, which is also empty. Margaret isn't here.

Now, I'm sure David feels some mixed emotions. Thankfully, he didn't find her body, but...

Where is she? Now, David figured that surely there was some explanation for this and that she would eventually turn up. Maybe someone took her out to lunch or something. So from here, David calls Margaret's nephew, Howard Leisure. He lived in town and he too was concerned that his aunt wasn't home. So from here, Howard and his wife, Cindy, immediately make their way over to Margaret's house. But after looking through it,

They also can't find Margaret. By the following day, when Margaret still didn't show up, that's when he knew this was serious. So it's here where Howard calls 911.

Roger, police. Yes, this is Howard Leisher. My aunt lives on Fortage Street. Okay. And a friend of ours stopped over there yesterday to check on her, and she was nowhere to be found. We didn't know if you found anybody wandering. No, we don't have any reports of anybody wandering. We can't find her in the house anywhere. He went in the house and looked through the whole house, but couldn't find her. If she lived there by herself?

She lives there by herself, yes. What's her name? Margaret Douglas. Soon enough, the Wadsworth Police Department arrived at 359 Portage Street to perform a wellness check. Like Howard, they made their way around the house looking for her, calling out her name, but again, they couldn't find her. The officers would end up speaking with a few of Margaret's neighbors, and the last time they had seen her was on April 5th. Apparently, she was seen walking around outside, but that was four days ago.

The neighbors also told the officers that Margaret was a very trusting woman who never locked her doors. The police continued looking around the neighborhood, asking people if they had seen Margaret or anything suspicious within the last few days. But no one had. From there, they even called the local hospitals to see if she had been admitted. But no matter where they turned, they were met with a dead end. 98-year-old Margaret Douglas was missing.

Later that evening, Margaret's nephew Howard and his wife Cindy went back over to her house to help the police search for her. And this time, they were trying to see if anything was missing. And specifically, they were looking for things that Margaret would have taken with her if she left the house. For instance, Margaret always traveled with her small red wallet, her coat, and she had a favorite pair of shoes that she always wore.

Her wallet is red. It's about, I would say, rectangle. I would say maybe four inches in width. But Cindy and Howard were not able to find her wallet in the house. They also couldn't find her coat or her favorite shoes in her bedroom closet. So they decided to look in the downstairs closet. But interestingly enough, something they hadn't noticed before

was that there was a large heater directly in front of the closet door. Oh yeah, it was right smack in front of the closet door. And actually that thought hit my mind when they asked me to look for her coat. And I went over there and I thought, why did Margaret put that heater in front of the closet door? And they were about to find out. After moving the heater, they cautiously opened the closet door. And as soon as they did, they saw that the closet was in disarray.

Most of the clothes that had been hung up had fallen off their hangers and were piled onto the ground. Also on top of that pile was Margaret's vacuum cleaner. And to Howard's surprise, at the very bottom of that pile

he spotted Margaret's favorite shoe, the very shoe he had been looking for. So he went down to pick it up so that he could show the officers. But when he did, the shoe caught on something. Howard noticed that as he was holding the shoe, his hand was grabbing onto something cold and clammy. And suddenly it hit him that he had just found his aunt's body. - That's when I noticed the shoe.

So I tried to pick it up, I couldn't pick it up. I'm thinking, what's holding the shoe? So I grabbed another piece of clothing and threw it back. I've never seen this before in my life. White, you know, and I touched it, it was cold, felt clammy, but it felt like styrofoam to me. So I moved it.

So I moved another piece of clothing and that's when I go down like this and I felt it. Up in front of the leg and I felt it the same way. I think, why she's got thyroid problem in here? What is it?

Soon enough, there was a large police presence on Portage Street. Many nosy neighbors poked their heads out from their homes trying to see what was going on. When they noticed that the officers were at Margaret Douglas' house, everyone figured that Margaret must have passed away. Which was sad to see. Given that she was 98 years old, many people in the neighborhood looked out for Margaret. They knew that it was only a matter of time until she passed. However, it was still unexpected.

But then, as the neighbors gathered outside of their homes, taking in the scene, they watched as the police put up crime scene tape around Margaret's home. They also saw there were nearly a dozen officials coming in and out of her house. And after a while, everyone knew that this couldn't have been an average death by natural causes. And it wasn't. Not even close. Inside of Margaret's home, in the downstairs closet,

Investigators carefully removed the pile of clothing that was on the floor, and just as they suspected, at the bottom of it was the body of 98-year-old Margaret Douglas. It was clear at first glance that someone had shoved her in there. The closet was only about 1.5 feet by 2.5 feet, so it was small.

Her head had been pushed into the corner, and to fit her body inside, the perpetrator had to put her backside up in the air so they could close the door. It was also clear that they had piled things on top of her to try and conceal her body.

And soon enough, news began to spread about the discovery at Margaret's home. We've learned investigators are at the home of a missing 98-year-old woman. Yeah, there have been a lot of questions about what exactly happened here. We know that a family member was in town right before this woman went missing. Channel 3's Dorcena Drakeford is live in Wadsworth, where police are expected to release more information this morning. She is joining us now with the details that we do know at this point. Hi, Dorcena.

Hi, good morning guys. So what we do know is she is 98 years old. Margaret Douglas reported missing yesterday. You mentioned it by a family member that does not live in the state. She was last seen April 5th, authorities believe, at her home. She has not had contact with her friends since April 3rd. That's exactly one week ago from today. So we went to the house earlier this morning and we saw that the porch lights were still on. There were a few lights on inside of the house.

But according to neighbors on Portage Street, which is where she lived, the Bureau of Criminal Investigation was there last night up until early this morning, around 1. It's when they wrapped up their investigation. So neighbors are not too confident that Ms. Douglas is doing OK. Now, what we do know is that there should be more details released later on this morning by Wadsworth Police Department. So we'll be here waiting for those details and we'll bring them to you as soon as we got them, John and Maureen.

But what would be uncovered here would forever change the town of Wadsworth, Ohio. And their police department knew this. So, in the beginning, they weren't going public with the details of Margaret's death. On April 10th, the Wadsworth Police Department issued a statement that said Margaret Douglas had been found inside her home in a "hidden location." But that's about all they would say.

By a suburban community, not so quiet tonight. Police in Medina County have a mystery on their hands. They're trying to figure out how a 98-year-old woman died after she was reported missing yesterday. Police said she was found in a hidden location in her house. News 5's Paul Kiska live in Wadsworth tonight. So is foul play suspected, Paul? Well, Wadsworth police say they're not answering any questions about that tonight. But for people who live around here, that's exactly what they want to find out.

Wadsworth Police say 98-year-old Margaret Douglas was reported missing by an out-of-town relative yesterday. Police searched her home but didn't find her and said there were no obvious signs of foul play. But then police said they went back to the house last night and found her body in a hidden location but would not elaborate. Police didn't say why they didn't find her body the first time they searched.

Investigators were called out to collect evidence. We were just calling to see and they transferred me to you. I went to the police station and called police from their lobby phone, but they told me they are not doing any interviews. It's very troubling and we don't know if it's suspicious or not. A resident of Portage Road said talk amongst neighbors is that Douglas was found in a closet.

This is a small town and you just don't expect that here. We just moved from Las Vegas, Nevada. We moved shortly after the huge shooting there. So we were used to things like this happening, but not in our front yard.

And this is, it's scary. A spokesperson from the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation told me just because their crime scene investigation unit was at the house doesn't necessarily mean foul play. But investigators must try to determine what led to her death. Neighbors are still shook up. It's very heartbreaking. She's 98 years old. Who has any business taking her from this earth after that rich a life?

It makes no sense if that's what happened. And to find out what happened, the medical examiner still has to do an autopsy to find out the exact cause of death of this 98-year-old woman. In Wadsworth tonight, Paul Kiska, News 5. But the truth behind this crime was far more disturbing than anyone originally thought. The whispers throughout the community were that Margaret had been murdered. And they were right. But this wasn't your average murder.

When Margaret was found in that closet, her nightgown had been unbuttoned, her bra was pulled up, and her underwear was ripped. So immediately, they knew that she had been sexually assaulted. In addition to this, they also found trauma around her neck, suggesting she had been manually strangled. There was also evidence that Margaret put up a fight.

as there was bruising all around her head and face. It was clear that the final moments of Margaret's life were filled with pain and fear, something no one should have to face, let alone a sweet little old lady. Back at her home, investigators combed through every inch of her property

hoping to find evidence of who could have done this. One thing that stood out was that investigators were never able to find Margaret's red wallet. So they questioned whether or not this was a robbery gone wrong. Yet there was no sign of forced entry.

No busted windows, no cracked door frames, nothing. But like everyone said, Margaret was not one to lock her doors. She never felt the need to, as she thought her community was safe. So if someone had come there to rob her, it would have been easy for them. Now, in terms of physical evidence, investigators weren't able to find much, but they did find something in Margaret's backyard. It was a single white plastic glove.

After looking through her home, Margaret didn't have any of these gloves, so it appeared to have belonged to their perpetrator. They quickly took it in as evidence, and luckily, the suspect's DNA was on it, so everyone hoped that it was only a matter of time until they found the person responsible.

Now, like with any investigation, detectives wanted to start by looking at the people closest to Margaret, including her nephew Howard, who found her body. So they asked him to come to the police station for an interview.

Howard told detectives that he and his wife Cindy had started helping Margaret more in the last few years. She had gotten too old to run errands by herself.

So every other week or so, they would stop by Margaret's house, get some money from her, and together they would buy her some groceries. It was clear in the interview that Howard was devastated over Margaret's death, and finding her body really shook him up. I've never seen it. I'm sure you guys do all the time, but I've never... Yeah, it's not something you get used to, no matter how many times you see it. To me, it didn't look like glass or skin. That's what...

From these interviews, it didn't seem like Howard and Cindy had anything to do with it.

but detectives had to look at them anyway. Like we mentioned, Margaret didn't have any children, so Howard was the closest family member she had. And you always have to look at the people closest to the victim. Another thing investigators do in an investigation is follow the money. Anytime there's a murder, they want to look into who would financially benefit from the victim's death. But Howard informed them that Margaret didn't have much money,

and she never even got a will. He would later tell the show an unexpected killer, quote, "We've been telling her she needs to get a will. She needs this and she would never make the time to do it." After verifying this, it became clear that money was not the motive here.

even though Margaret's wallet was missing. Investigators were also able to take DNA from both Howard and Cindy, and neither matched the DNA found in the glove that was discarded in Margaret's backyard.

So now the next thing on detectives' checklist was to see if Margaret had any enemies. But according to everyone, she didn't. Howard described his aunt as a, quote, sweet old lady. And his wife Cindy told detectives through tears, quote, Margaret bothered no one. That's why this is so horrible. She wouldn't hurt a flea. Margaret bothered no one. That's why it's so just horrible. It's horrible.

Detectives wanted to know who else was close to Margaret, and Howard pointed them towards David Clickenbeard, the one who called him after noticing the newspapers in Margaret's driveway. He was also the one who first walked through the home looking for her. Howard would later say that David would go every week, take her trash out, and then he'd take both cans back the next day.

So detectives called to see if he would come in for an interview. But surprisingly, David wouldn't answer their calls, which was strange. And some people in their neighborhood would later tell police that they were suspicious of David. Some neighbors said that on the day her body was discovered, David was seen driving by Margaret's house several times, trying to get a good look at what was going on. But again, he and Margaret were close. So that could also mean he was a concerned friend, wanting to know what was going on.

Another neighbor said that David had come up to them saying that he was worried because his fingerprints might be in Margaret's home. Like we mentioned, he came over pretty frequently to help her with household chores. And he was at her home that day looking for her. So I guess he was worried that the crime might get pinned on him.

Now, when investigators heard all of this, they were definitely suspicious. Even more so when they learned that David had asked the neighbor across the street to help him look for Margaret that day. Why did he want someone there with him? Did he know that Margaret was dead? Detectives were determined to figure this out. Now, eventually, while police were canvassing Margaret's neighborhood, they saw an older gentleman smoking a cigarette. And when they approached him,

David told investigators that the last time he saw Margaret was Wednesday, April 4th, when he stopped by to help her take her trash out. But he said he didn't come back to check on her until four days later, on April 8th, and that's when he noticed she was missing.

As the interview continued, David made some comments about Margaret's appearance. He said she was a beautiful woman who dressed well, especially back in the day when she was younger.

David also seemed to know intimate details about the case, like what she was wearing and where she was found. But by then, people all over town had been talking about what happened, so David likely just heard this through the grapevine. Eventually, investigators subpoenaed David's cell phone records and they took his DNA. And soon enough, he too was cleared as a suspect. Now that the three people closest to Margaret had been ruled out, detectives were back to the drawing board.

Throughout their investigation, they learned that Margaret had no enemies, she didn't have a will, and she was known to leave her door unlocked. So detectives began to wonder if this was a crime of opportunity. Perhaps someone was lurking in the night, going home to home, when they suddenly came across Margaret's and saw that her door was unlocked. Then from there, the nightmare unfolded. This theory actually made a lot of sense.

In fact, over the last few months, the Wadsworth Police Department had been getting reports of several break-ins in the area. Once everyone was asleep, someone had been going around to vehicles, doing smash and grabs. Now, there wasn't a ton of valuables being taken, mostly electronic devices and loose change, but it was definitely becoming a problem.

And even more suspicious were that these break-ins were happening around Margaret's home. Upon further investigation, authorities found that there had actually been a carjacking in the area on April 8th, the night before Margaret's body was found. The report came from a 50-year-old man named Paul. Paul told the police that he had been driving around that night when he witnessed a young man limping on the side of the road.

He said that the guy was probably 18 or 19 years old and it looked like he needed some help. So Paul decided to pull over. But as soon as he did, and he got out to see if the guy was okay, the young man suddenly turned around, jumped into Paul's car, locked the doors, and then took off down the road. Now, eventually the police were able to locate Paul's car. It had been abandoned in a nearby parking lot.

And luckily for him, that area had a lot of cameras. So the police began looking through all of the footage to get more details on their suspect. But as they did, they realized that there were some inconsistencies to Paul's story. On the night of April 8th, they did see a video of a young man walking down the road.

but he didn't have a limp. And Paul did pull over his car, but the young man actually got into the car with Paul, where they stayed for several minutes. After seeing that Paul clearly lied to them, they decided to pay him a visit. And this time around, he was more forthcoming about what actually happened.

Paul told investigators that he had actually met the young man on an app called Grindr, which is a dating app for the LGBTQ community. Paul admitted that he had left this detail out in the first report because he actually worked at a church and he didn't want anyone to know that he was trying to meet up with young men. But Paul said that he and this guy started messaging on Grindr and eventually decided to meet up. So he met him on this road.

and the young man got into his vehicle so they could mess around. But Paul said that when he went to get into the back seat, the young man closed the door to his car, locked it, and then took off down the road.

Unfortunately, Paul wasn't able to provide much information on who this young man was. The only description he gave was that he was a young white male with blue eyes. So investigators asked to look at Paul's Grindr account to see if they could track the person down. But apparently, Paul was so ashamed with how everything went down, he actually went home and deleted his entire account.

Investigators tried to recover it, but they weren't able to. Now, Paul was ruled out as a suspect in Margaret's murder, but detectives wanted to learn the identity of this young man he met up with. If he was capable of carjacking someone, he might be responsible for the other break-ins in the neighborhood. And even worse, he might also be responsible for Margaret's murder.

As a lot of you probably know, Courtney and I's time is already really stretched thin. We have multiple projects that we're working on. I'm working on a documentary. We're posting a video every week on YouTube, a podcast, a second podcast. So we don't have a lot of extra time in our lives, especially when it comes to cooking. I know that for myself at the end of a long workday, the last thing that I want to do is get in the kitchen and cook myself something. And meal planning, grocery shopping, and cooking can be a huge hassle.

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Once again, investigators were back to square one. It had now been a few days since Margaret's body had been discovered and the community of Wadsworth was living in a constant state of fear. People no longer felt safe walking their dogs or letting their children play outside, especially when Margaret's autopsy results were released. Her cause of death was listed as manual constriction of the neck.

She had numerous contusions to her head and face, her orbital socket was broken, and her C7 vertebrae was fractured, meaning when her killer strangled her, he broke her neck. And while there was no trauma to her genitals, her underwear was completely torn and her nightgown had been unbuttoned.

There was also DNA found on her body that didn't belong to Margaret, so it's clear that there was a sexual motive to this crime. Upon learning these details, everyone in Wadsworth was disgusted that someone in their community could do this to a 98-year-old woman. And the police department was under a lot of pressure to find exactly who did this, so they continued looking at the petty crime that had been happening around Margaret's neighborhood.

Something they noticed was that most of the break-ins had been happening on Portage Street, the very street where Margaret lived. Detectives knew their killer was close. And soon enough, on August 13th, they would get a massive break in the case.

That evening, the Wadsworth Police Department got several calls about two young men sneaking around at night, causing trouble. Unfortunately, the police weren't able to get there in time to catch the culprits. But later that night, they received another call that the young men had broken into a church's trailer. However, these were no criminal masterminds, because one of the young men actually left some things behind and

including a lighter and a cell phone. Using forensic software, investigators were able to unlock the phone to find its owner, and they quickly found that it belonged to a local teenager named Braden, a name that police knew all too well. Braden had gotten in trouble for crimes like this in the past. He had a pretty rough upbringing, and he couldn't seem to stay out of trouble. But was he the one who killed Margaret Douglas?

Investigators were determined to find out. Soon enough, the police found Braden sleeping in his car in his high school's parking lot. And from there, they took him in for an interview. When he sat down in the interrogation room, detectives noticed he had deep scratches on his leg. And we know that Margaret put up a fight, so they were definitely suspicious of him.

But they start their interview by talking about the break-in at the church. And at first, Brayden denied any involvement. Detectives then tell him that not only did they find his cell phone at the scene, but they also have video of him with another young man. And it's here where Brayden finally begins talking.

If you just want to be honest with me, that would be great. And if not, I can just say that you said you were nowhere near and here's the video. I mean... Okay. Um, I appreciate, I guess, the straight upness. I do, honestly. Um, how's that one with the friend?

Brayden said that soon after, an officer showed up, so he and his friend quickly ran away from the scene and were able to get away.

And Braden told investigators exactly who his friend was, 17-year-old Gavin Ramsey. So was that Gavin's green lighter then? Or yours?

Braden also admitted that Gavin was the one who came up with the idea to break into the trailer that night. He was the apparent mastermind behind it all. So from here, detectives cut straight to the chase and asked Braden if he was involved in Margaret's murder, but he was adamant he was not responsible. He said that yes, he had heard about it, but he would never do something like that.

Now, Braden did admit that he's known to be a troublemaker, but he's no murderer, he says. So detectives would test his DNA against the DNA found at the crime scene. And in the meantime, they wanted to talk to Gavin Ramsey to see what he knew.

Gavin was a junior at Wadsworth High School. And like Braden, he had a history with the Wadsworth Police Department. Now, at the time of our story, Gavin was only 17 years old. And because he was a minor, his mom, Christine, was in the room during his interrogation. And the first thing detectives want to ask him about is the break-ins he committed with his friend, Braden. But Gavin wasn't very forthcoming at first. Do you want to tell us what you guys were doing and what was happening that night? Yeah.

Bye.

You're 17, right? Yeah. Okay. No, we snuck out. Well, I snuck out. He's 18. So we were just walking around. He didn't even drive. Like, we just walked. Oh, he walked from his house in Newcliffe? Mm-hmm. Oh, jeez. And then we met up with Dirling, and we weren't really doing anything. Then we went over to the church and climbed on top. And then we went, like, into the courtyard, but that's all we did.

Nah. You did more. Unfortunately, you guys have left behind some very telling items. Okay? If we're going to get to the bottom of this, let's just make it the truth all at once and deal with it and get it done. I'm 17. Yeah. You're a kid, so you're not looking at what trouble is.

It's here where the detectives tell Gavin that his friend Braden had already come clean about breaking into the church's trailer. So finally, he starts talking. I didn't even know what was going off because we were by the windows and they were already cracked open and like we were just messing with them. Like they were honestly cracked open. I'm not lying anymore. Gavin confirmed that once they got inside, the alarm started going off.

No. I put my knife behind, like, the little cement and...

So Gavin admits that he and Brayden were up to no good. They didn't even have a reason to break into the trailer that night. They just felt like it. His mother, Christine, would tell investigators that Gavin and Brayden had gotten in trouble together in the past.

And because of that, they weren't even supposed to be hanging out. But now that Gavin admitted to the church break-in, detectives wanted to know about the other crimes he committed, like the car break-ins in the area.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. Yes.

Now, you can tell that Gavin's mom, Christine, is upset. I think she knows deep down that her son is responsible for the petty crimes going on around town. We've had a lot of crimes on in your neighborhood lately. And probably more than the general public is aware. I'm sure. More than one in the city.

Yeah. So, what is it? Okay. Unfortunately, we're trying to see if, you know, they're all related. Right. At this point in the interview, Christine tells the detectives about Gavin's past of getting in trouble. And because of that, she has been really strict with him lately. I'm guessing this isn't the first time yet. Well, no, like, we've snuck out in the past before, but...

Since I've gotten in trouble this most recent one, like without the law, I haven't really snuck out at all. When was this recent time that you got in trouble? He has not had any freedom at all. I mean, he literally goes to work and home probably three months because he makes bad choices. And we're just not, we don't want that for our kids. So he literally has no life.

But clearly, she hadn't been strict enough because Gavin eventually admits that he had been breaking into cars in the neighborhood and rummaging through them. But he said he never took anything. Did you rummage through glove boxes or anything? Yeah. Yeah.

And you didn't take not even change or anything? Maybe like 50 cents, but I've done more than that. Seriously, nothing. When his mom, Christine, hears this, she's clearly upset. What'd you do if somebody got to my car? That is so upsetting and scary. I understand that, but it's really their own fault for not locking me in. Yeah, I locked my house time. Because you did. Because you locked yours every time. It's not the point. It's not yours.

But if she thinks that is scary, his mom has no idea what's coming. The next thing detectives want to ask Gavin about is the carjacking that took place the day before Margaret Douglas' body was found.

Gavin, we've had some really serious things happen in your neighborhood and in that area, okay? We had a carjacking. Oh my God. And the suspect is a young white male with a nice complexion and blue eyes.

Now, like we mentioned earlier, the man who had his car stolen said he met the suspect on Grindr. So it's here where the detectives asked Gavin about that, which clearly made him uncomfortable.

Have you ever used an app called Grindr? No.

How do you feel about gay people? I'm not gay. Oh, that's okay. They don't bother you? No, nobody bothers me. Okay. I just, I'm, you know, some of the victims of these crimes are gay, and I didn't know if it was a... A hate crime kind of thing. Right. You're being victimized only because of their sexual orientation. So...

We're here, so I'm just going to ask them. It's going to be straightforward, you know? There's no reason for me to fluff anything up. And I'm sure you guys know about the elderly woman that was trying to... Oh my God, that was horrifying. That was horrifying. It is horrifying. Did you know her at all? No, I was going to just see her out on a porch.

Now, the entire time Gavin's mom is talking to the detectives about Margaret Douglas' murder and how sad and disgusting it was, Gavin is sitting there with his hands together, elbows on his knees,

and his head is down, looking at the floor. And when the detective asks him about her murder, he gets very emotional. The detective asks, quote, "Gavin, do you know anything about it?" And he says, quote, "No, I honestly, probably five or six people," which doesn't make any sense. He's flustered. The detective then asks, quote, "That you've talked to? Is that what you're saying?"

But Gavin doesn't answer. He just stares at the floor and starts crying. Is there something else you need to tell us? I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I've been doing this for a little while.

And I have a whole gaggle of children of my own, ranging from the age of 26 all the way down to 10. So I'm pretty good with this stuff. But Gavin continues to sit there in silence. So his mom steps forward, telling her son that honesty is the best way to go. Yeah, let's get it this way.

Honestly, it's always what's best. I'm not holding anything back. Like... You've already gotten yourself in trouble, so... I know, and I don't mean... I don't know what to say. Is there more? Because you know it all comes out. No, it's not that there's anything more. It's what the fuck, dude? What the fuck?

Even if I always let you kiss, what happens in the dark comes out in the light. That's the way it works. You mess up, you get caught, you make bad choices, you're going to pay for it. So if there's something else, let's get it all out on the table so that we know what we're dealing with. There's not anything else. I don't know. I'm mad at myself. I'm so mad at myself.

What are you so mad at yourself for? I'm... I was 16 and I had a fucking belly in like five minutes of years. And now I'm going to be in more trouble. I have to go back to court. And I'm done with it. I'm so done with it. That's fair enough. Like, honestly, I don't even want to live at home anymore. I... I don't know. I just... I'm not...

Fucking normal. I just need to live somewhere else. Like in, I don't know, some halfway house or something. I honestly would not care. Why would you want to live in a halfway house? What is so wrong about living at home? No, there's nothing that they do. It's me. Like, everything I'm putting them through, I'm costing them thousands of dollars.

Constant heartbreak. I've honestly probably never made either of them proud. I don't do anything fucking good. Stop cussing. It's a word. It's disrespectful. So you're upset with yourself? Yeah, I hate you, but this really is.

At this point, the detective takes the conversation back to Margaret Douglas, because here, Gavin is admitting to all of these thefts around town, and whoever killed Margaret stole from her too. So that's why they're bringing it up. But you can tell in this next part that Gavin's mom truly doesn't believe her son had anything to do with Margaret's case.

Oh my God, I know. No.

But, you know, if we would come to find out that you're not being honest about real things, that, you know, puts you back on the list of people to take a look at. Right. You know, so it's a serious situation. That's why I want to make sure. Yeah.

Next, Christine starts talking about how scared she became after she found out about what happened to Margaret. But little did she know, Margaret's killer was no stranger.

Throughout this conversation, Gavin had been sitting there quietly. You can tell he had a lot on his mind. And it's at this point when he asks if he can speak to the detective alone, without his mom in the room. I think you two actually, for a second. What's that? You two actually...

Once his mom leaves the room, Gavin starts talking about that carjacking incident. He admits that it was him. He did meet the guy on Grindr, but he claimed he went there to rob the guy and sort of teach him a lesson, since this older man had made up with the minor.

The car dressing, it was me. I'm going to be honest about it. But the way that he explained it, that guy, that's not right. That grinder thing, yeah, I have been on it.

And this guy was like the first time that this happened and I told him like I was 17 and everything and I wasn't planning on doing anything with him. It's not my style. I was just like he's a 41 man trying to get with a 17 year old so I was just gonna rob him. It's like it's still messed up but I guess what he's doing I don't really think it is. And then

The whole carjacking thing, I never even left Overlook. I literally, like, I got in and he's like, what, should we go to the backseat? I'm like, yeah, shit. So he got out.

I stand and lock the doors and hop in the driver's seat and just drove around, mess with him, and I left. Do you have his wallet? No. No, that's because I kept asking him. Like, I'd crack the window of the car. Like, he walked up, doors locked, everything. I'm like, where's your wallet? And he's like, I don't have it. So then, you know, I open this glove box and I'll put it.

After taking off in the man's car, Gavin tossed the man's phone out of the window and then left the car in a nearby parking lot. Then, when he got home, he blocked the guy on Grindr and deleted his account so he wouldn't be caught.

Gavin also admitted that he lied at first because he didn't want to say any of that with his mom in the room. I didn't want to say that for the memory. Are you gay? No, that's not it. Like, I didn't have any plans of doing it. What was he thinking was going to happen? I mean... Was there an act that you guys agreed upon? Not really, no. Just, like...

NSA. I didn't even know what that meant, but it means no strings attached. Did he touch you at all? No. Did you touch him at all? No. Why were you on that app? Really just for that reason, to find guys that are that low, or people I guess. That want to get with kids? Mm-hmm. Like it's karma, really.

Like if you're gonna get that, then I'm gonna rob you. Sorry guys, I know that audio is kind of hard to hear, but Gavin says that he's not gay, and he set up this entire Grindr account to find creeps that want to hook up with kids. But during the interview, the detective can't help but think that Gavin admitted to this crime so that he could pull attention away from the other crime they mentioned.

the murderer of Margaret Douglas. So it's here where she mentions it again. "You didn't hurt that old lady, did you?" "No." But once again, Gavin gets emotional. He says, quote, "No, and that's why I was so pissed earlier because..." He then takes a long pause, trying to gather himself before he starts again. He then says, quote, "Because when I see people accusing me of killing the girl,

And that's just like some dark stuff and everything. End quote. Because, and I see people that do the video, killing the girl. And that's, like I've just said, some dark stuff and everything. And like, I don't know if people know

Gavin said that people around town were already accusing him of killing Margaret.

which is why he's so upset. But the detective tells him, well, if you didn't kill her, then you have nothing to worry about because we have the killer's DNA. There's no reason that we would find your DNA inside her house because we swallowed the hell out of that house. You shouldn't. Okay. What do you think should happen to somebody that does that? That kills someone? Kills a 98-year-old woman. Yeah.

I don't know. I think iFerni is the best way to go. That's how I look at things, is iFerni. If it makes you feel better, I will give them your name and let them know your DNA is on file, and they can rule you out, okay, when we get a DNA profile. Would that help you? I mean...

From here, they end the interview, and the detective mentions Gavin's mom. Yeah, she probably thinks I'm contesting the murder. She's been in here so long.

But Gavin wasn't confessing to murder. And after this, he would actually get to go home. The detectives ask if they can have his phone. Gavin didn't want to give it over, but his mom said it was okay. She told the police, quote, "'It is what it is. "'Whatever they find, I pray to God "'there's nothing too horrible in there.'"

So with that, Gavin leaves his phone with them and they leave the police station. And from the beginning, detectives know that Gavin is hiding something. They don't know exactly what, but they're hoping that this look through his phone will give them some answers. And boy does it. At first glance, there isn't anything that sticks out. But then they find this app called Dark. Dark.

When they click on it, they see that the app is protected by a password. Eventually, they're able to hack into it. And the password Gavin used for this app was the word "murder," which would be very telling. After hacking into the app, investigators find photos and videos taken of Margaret on the night she was killed. And we will get into what exactly those entailed here in a little bit. But after looking through them,

detectives know without a shadow of a doubt that they had finally found Margaret's killer. Soon after the discovery on Gavin's phone, the police made their way over to his house with an arrest warrant. Gavin hung his head in defeat as they put around his wrists. And in the squad car, on the way over to the police station, Gavin makes a comment to the arresting officer.

It was clear that Gavin was going to be more truthful about his crimes this time around. And once at the police station, they would bring him into an interrogation room for a second interview. Video from this day shows Gavin walking into the room and then immediately throwing himself on the floor in self-pity. He has his hands covered and he's clearly very distraught.

Now, this next part is kind of hard to hear because Gavin is crying and throwing a pity party for himself. But when the detective walks into the room, she says, quote, "I know telling me about it doesn't give you much relief." End quote. Gavin says, "It doesn't change the fact that I ruined my life." "Did you go to school the next morning? After this?" "I don't think we were even back at school." "Oh, it was during spring break, right?"

I think so. And you didn't take anything from the house? Like I said before, it doesn't make a difference either way. I mean, what other crime that I committed would even matter at this point? Well, the family specifically asked me about the wallet, so that's the only reason I'm asking about it.

At this point, another detective walks into the room and asks if Gavin wants his handcuffs removed so that he could be more comfortable. He says it doesn't matter to him, and from there they remove his cuffs as he continues to cry on the floor. Then the interview continues, and this time they start by talking about why Gavin likes to commit crimes. Did you go into the house initially just to steal something? Just honestly, I wanted the adrenaline rush. I think that's why I broke into the cars and stuff.

So your whole intention of going into the house was just the adrenaline of being in somebody's house? It was just this sneaky thrill of, can I get into someone's house and get away with it?

Yeah, if the door was locked, I would have just walked away. Were you in her house for a little while before you woke her up? I mean, I came up on the porch and I didn't even know what I was going to do. And I looked in the window and everything. I don't know. I felt like going into the house. It's like the biggest adrenaline rush I could get. So, when I turned the door not a minute, that just happened to be unlocked. Was it the front door or back door? Back door. Okay. Okay.

So you went into the kitchen? Well, she was already asleep whenever I went in because when I came around the corner, that's when I saw her and it scared me. I didn't expect to see someone right there. I didn't hear anything. So I came in, like, I opened the door, I just listened. I didn't hear anything, so maybe nobody saw me.

And then I go to walk around that corner and I'm still going slow, but I see her and she's, I don't know, like sleeping or something. And then I go to turn around and hit the chair. I made a noise and she woke up. And she started to scream at that point, you said? Yeah, because when I hit the chair, I turned back around.

Gavin told the detectives. So that's when you were trying to get the phone away so she couldn't call? So you guys ended up on the floor at that point?

So when you guys were on the floor and her gown was torn, what happened to her underwear? I don't know if she died or anything yet or not, but I just didn't know what to do. And if that happened, by the time I realized what I was doing, it was too late to stop anything.

So when she died, was she on the couch or on the floor? Floor. Were you on top of her then? Kind of. Like straddling her? Yeah. And did you use one hand or both? Both. Did you squeeze it or push her against the floor or both? Both. And you said you don't remember if she was bleeding at that point?

The detective then asks, quote,

How long did that whole part take? Probably like five minutes. Was she like fighting back with you then? Trying to struggle? And then you guys went down? Yeah. I think on her way down is when her gown ripped. But you don't remember ripping her panties? No. Did she say anything to you when all of this was happening? Did you say anything to her? No, I didn't. It happened.

The detective then asks Gavin about his decision to hide Margaret's body. She asks, So you made the decision then to put her in the closet? Did you look around for another place to put her or was that just the first place you came along? I guess it was just the first place considering my time limit. And then you drove her by her feet, you said, to the closet. What part of her body did you put in there first?

So Gavin's story seems to make some sense. He was creeping around at night, wanting to find a house to break into, and Margaret's door happened to be unlocked. He said he thought no one was home.

But after he stepped inside, he saw Margaret sleeping on the couch. Gavin said that upon seeing her, he went to leave. But when he did, he accidentally made a sound. From there, Margaret woke up, started screaming, and when he saw that she was trying to grab the phone, he strangled her so he wouldn't get in trouble.

Gavin also said that during that struggle, Margaret's nightgown and underwear must have ripped. But based on what was found on Gavin's phone, this story is a lie. A lie from the very beginning. You see, the first video detectives came across on that app were videos of Gavin hiding behind a chair in Margaret's home, and he's recording her while she sleeps. The videos are incredibly disturbing.

The lamp next to the couch is still on, so it's not dark. Margaret is lying on her back and she's tossing and turning a little bit. So the story of him trying to leave once he saw Margaret was home was just a flat out lie. He liked the fact that Margaret was there, so much so he pulled out his phone and started recording her. So at this point in the interview, detectives decide to bring this up.

Gavin went on to say,

Gavin was adamant that the rest of the story he told was true, but once again they knew he was lying. Earlier in the interview, the detective asked, quote,

How long did you stay there before you put her in the closet? Gavin responds: But once again, he wasn't telling the truth. According to the pictures and videos on his phone,

Gavin was inside Margaret's house for four to five hours. And we know that he killed Margaret within the first 30 minutes of being there. So what was he doing throughout that time? Well, after Gavin walked through her unlocked back door,

He started recording Margaret from behind that couch, but eventually she saw him and started screaming. When Margaret went to grab her phone, he got it away from her, and like we mentioned, Margaret put up a fight. There were actually scratches all over Gavin's hands and arms from Margaret trying to defend herself, but Gavin overpowered her.

During the struggle, she began to bleed from her nose. And within a matter of minutes, Margaret was dead after Gavin strangled her. But what he did after this would prove to be the most disturbing. Trigger warning, this next part involves necrophilia. But in one of the videos, it showed Gavin pulling up Margaret's bra and bloody nightgown, leaving her body exposed on the living room floor.

In another video, he poses her body in various positions while he masturbates. Now, something to note is that in these videos, you never see Gavin's face, but you do see that he's wearing a glove, the same glove that was found in her backyard that had Gavin's DNA on it. In one picture, Gavin snapped a photo of him holding his gloved hand around Margaret's throat.

By then, he had been there for hours, pleasuring himself and playing with Margaret's dead body. And it's at this point in the night where he decided to go into Margaret's pantry and grab a jar of grape jelly. But it wasn't because he was hungry.

In the next video, detectives found they saw him using the grape jelly as a lubricant. He grabbed some of the grape jelly out of the jar and he used it to insert his gloved fingers into Margaret's genitals. In another video, he used Margaret's hand to masturbate himself. This went on for hours.

And Gavin was enjoying himself so much, he documented the entire thing. Then when he was finally satisfied, he videoed himself dragging Margaret's body across the floor over to that downstairs closet. Before shoving her inside, he took another video of her legs spread open, exposing her vagina and anus.

And only then did he decide he was finally done. It was at this point when Gavin began contorting Margaret's body so that she could fit into that tiny closet. It was only a few feet wide, so he shoved her in head first, face down, bending her knees and arms until she finally fit. He then took some clothes from off the hangers and threw them on top of her. He also put other items on her like a vacuum cleaner,

so that no one would be able to see her from under that pile. After closing the closet door, he put a large heater in front of it, so when people came to look for her, I guess they wouldn't decide to look there. Gavin then grabbed all of his stuff and went to leave. But first, he decided to take Margaret's red wallet. And only then, about five hours after he entered the house, Gavin finally left out the back door.

accidentally dropping that glove in her backyard. So as you can see, Gavin left out a lot to his story. Margaret's clothes didn't accidentally rip during their struggles. He did that part on purpose. And now in the interrogation room, it was time to confront him about this discovery. So what did you do with your gloves when you left? We moved away. Where at?

Now, Gavin said that he didn't bring those gloves there on purpose. He said he had been cleaning at home and accidentally brought them with him. Yeah.

I get it that there's a whole piece of this that you don't understand why you do. Okay. I understand the whole sexual piece that you don't understand. And I get that. Did the purple stuff have to do with the whole sexual piece that you don't understand why you do? No. Gavin then said, no, the purple stuff, I don't even know where that came into play. Did you maybe use it like kind of as a lubricant for something? No.

And then at the end there, he said,

Something I don't understand, I guess. The detective then says, But you put the jelly on the glove. Is that when you used her hand to rub your penis? Gavin couldn't even look at them. And with his head down, he mutters, Yeah. He clearly didn't want to talk about this part of the crime. Is that the same time that you were taking some of those pictures? Yeah, after I took those pictures. That's when the shots hit in? Yeah, it's like, what am I doing?

Eventually, the detective asks, quote, Did you mean to hurt Margaret like this? No, it was just a shock. And by the time you realized she had died? There was nothing I could do. Eventually, the conversation drifts over to Gavin's other crimes. He talked about how when he breaks into cars, he gets this rush of adrenaline, thinking to himself, is the alarm going to go off?

Am I going to get away with this? He even admitted to the detectives that part of the carjacking story was a lie as well. In their first interview, he made it seem like he was some vigilante going after predators. But he admitted that he met up with that man to hook up. However, as soon as they started messing around, he got freaked out.

And from there, he resorted to his adrenaline rush again. And he decided to steal the man's car. With the Margaret situation, he said he didn't go there to hurt her, but his adrenaline kicked in and he got carried away. I don't know how true that is. The detectives and later the prosecution believes that Gavin went there to do exactly what he ended up doing. But during the interview, Gavin is clearly emotional.

And not because he feels bad about what he did. More so because he ruined his life. What do you think is even going to happen with me? I think you're going to go to juvenile detention. And you're going to do some time in jail. How long do you think? I don't know. I just don't know, guys. But I do know that your mom...

She absolutely loves you and you are a huge part of her world. And she needs you to be here.

That's what I'm most upset about. But I want you to remember that. I don't want you to forget that, okay? I can't. I don't think it's the only thing that's going to be going. Like Bob...

She seems like a pretty fantastic lady. She is. And she loves you more than anything, so if anybody can get you through this and get you what you need to fix whatever's going on with you, it's your mom. I don't know if this can be fixed. I mean, it doesn't feel like it's some regular emotion. This feels...

Look, it's natural and I don't want it to be. I don't have anything to be sexed. Yeah. I wasn't bold enough when I told you you were a nice kid. You know? You seem like a super nice kid. There's got to be something that's making all this happen for you. Right? Probably the best thing it was. So we were kind of fixing that now that I was thinking about it.

Gavin said that he had talked to a therapist about his issues and they tried to treat his depression, but he said it didn't work. He said he still tried to kill himself.

Gavin said that he didn't care about what happened to him. The only reason he didn't kill himself is because of his mom and what it would do to her. I don't care what happens to me. Honestly, I don't know what would happen, what it would do to my mom. My mom said she couldn't go on another day if I died.

I'm not gonna keep myself because of that. That's more for her not to use. Yeah, I don't care about weed. The night you were out at Margaret's, did you drink or smoke anything? Did you have any drugs that night? Not that. I was actually sober that night. Which is another reason why I smoke weed and I drink. Because I can't handle myself when I'm sober.

Or I can't, like, comprehend. I don't even know the words to use. My thoughts when I'm sober are dark. When I'm high, they're, like, good thoughts. Not, like, planning it out, but, like, oh, I'm so mad I could go kill someone right now. Like, that kind of thing.

But you never imagined yourself actually doing it? No, I could never envision myself. I mean, I've wondered what killing somebody would feel like, but I've also wondered what jumping off a building would feel like. So it's not like anything about this was premeditated. Are you sorry this happened? Yeah, I'm really sorry that I did all of this.

Were you sorry about all of this before you got caught? Yeah, like I... I constantly, like I think about it a lot and I... I feel like bad about what I did. Like I... I don't... Like I feel bad. I know it's wrong, but I can't express the emotion. If you could hear a lie in front of you, what would you say to her? I'm sorry. That never... That was never meant to happen.

If I could take it back, I would. But this is hard to believe. It doesn't seem like Gavin feels bad at all about killing a 98-year-old woman. Because right after he said this, he started talking about himself again and how he was going to run away if he hadn't been caught. I'll be honest, this Saturday, like five days from now, I was gone. I was leaving.

You been around? Mm-hmm. Because one reason I didn't yesterday is because I knew my mom just took out my money for my insurance. And I knew my insurance doubled. So I was like, no money. I just needed gas money to get somewhere. And I didn't care what happened. I don't know. I think I was headed down towards Tennessee and keep going down through there.

You knew that this was going to come out? At some point. And I knew if I left, there'd be no coming back ever. And that's... I don't know. I just... I kept having that thought every time I felt like I was ready to actually leave. I'm like, cool. I literally can't ever talk to my family again if I leave. Well, Gavin, I'm glad it's going to stop here.

I'm glad this didn't go any further because I don't know that you would have been able to change on your own. No, it wouldn't and I... I don't know. I had a pretty clear picture of what the next year looked like if I ran. Unfortunately, I think you would have hurt more people. Was that in your plan?

And it would. Gavin's parents had been at the police station during his interview, and they were about to learn that their son was a murderer.

And also that they found videos of Gavin engaging in sexual acts with Margaret's dead body. All the photos contained images of Margaret before and after her death, as well as videos of your son with her. Engaging in sex with her.

And unlike Gavin, his father is devastated. In this next part, he says, 98 years old, just living out her days. And here's my son. My son did this. You have motherfucking all these people out here, and it's my son? Oh my God. How did that happen? How did that happen?

I wanted you to know, when I spoke to the director of the juvenile detention facility, I explained the situation, explained that he was highly emotionally distraught, and I asked him to defer to our side. Watch him.

I've asked him to take, you know, to take care of your 24/7 observation. Okay. I know this is an emotionally devastating situation. I'm just not right now. It's a whole set of circumstances. We deserve to know. He will be tried as an adult. Oh my God, I'm like 98 years old. Just living out our days.

Now, it's at this point when Gavin's mom calls home and tells her other kids to leave the house as they are about to execute a search warrant. I need you to take your brother and take him out of the house right now.

I will explain later. Maybe go to Uncle David's and just hang there and we'll call you when you can come home.

And from there, the police execute their search warrant. Now, earlier, Gavin said that he threw Margaret's wallet away, but that was a lie. When investigators searched his home, they found her wallet hiding in a drawer in his bedroom. They also confiscated an empty bottle of Hollister cologne that Gavin stole from one of his grinder victims.

So it seemed like he was collecting trophies. I mean, why else would he tell investigators that he threw Margaret's wallet away when it was in his room the entire time? And that's not all investigators would find in his room. Earlier that day, he told detectives that he didn't really have any thoughts about killing people.

But during the search, they would find a journal of his that proved otherwise. The first entries found in his journal were writings of serial killers Henry Gaskins and Ted Bundy. He wrote all about their lives and crimes. But that alone isn't super concerning. However, what they found in the other pages was. As the detectives flipped through the journal, they found one page that was a horror skit Gavin had written. And his friend Braden, the one that he used to get into trouble with, was the victim of the story.

In part, it read, "Horror at the factory. Introduction: Graydon's playing at the park. I'm a murderer and I'm plotting on how to kill him. Then he notices me watching him from a distance, so he stops playing and looks at me. Then I start walking towards him, so he runs into the woods." In another entry, he writes about his feelings.

It reads, quote, I wanna learn what's wrong with me. Sometimes I honestly just wanna end it all, but I couldn't put my family through that. I would rather suffer endlessly than put my family through any of that. I can contain my thoughts and urges most days, but sometimes I just wanna fucking go off on someone and beat them until they're not breathing anymore. It's not even for attention or anything. I honestly just wanna take someone's life

I want to know what it would feel like to stand over someone's dead body.

In another, he writes,

Like I wouldn't feel bad if I killed someone, but I don't want to sit in fucking prison. Like that would suck. I don't really know what else to say. I really need to stop drinking, but it drowns out the pain so I probably won't stop. I at least need to limit myself. I think if counseling doesn't help me, I'm going to kill someone like I'm not just saying that. I'll probably take a girl out into the woods and rape her and kill her. I wouldn't feel bad about it, but I know it's wrong. I think I'm just a depressed sociopath to be honest.

So, clearly, investigators already knew Gavin was a disturbed individual, but these entries gave them a look into Gavin's dark mind. Murder and rape is something he had been contemplating for a while now, and Margaret Douglas just happened to be his first victim. Sergeant Skismenos would later tell Oxygen, After reading those, there was no doubt in my mind that Gavin would kill again if he had the opportunity. This is something he enjoys, that he finds pleasure in.

Investigators also found some more incriminating things on Gavin's phone. On the day that Margaret's body was found, there were a lot of police in their neighborhood. So his mom texted him that morning about all the officers nearby. She said, quote, To which Gavin responded, quote,

Well, that's Wadsworth for you. But after this, Gavin went to Google and looked up, quote, Margaret Douglas dead. Now, this was before anyone even knew what happened. Her death hadn't even hit the media yet.

Now, after Gavin's confession, he was officially charged with a total of nine counts, including four counts of aggravated murder, two counts of murder, one count of aggravated burglary, one count of kidnapping, and one count of abuse of a corpse.

his first arraignment was on june 5th 2018 and surprisingly despite his confession and all the evidence against him he pleaded not guilty and his attorney medina county public defender jocelyn stefanson attempted to suppress evidence including all the videos and photos found on his phone his confession and the journal found in his bedroom

However, the judge in his case obviously wouldn't allow this. And later that year, Gavin changed his plea to no contest and waived his right to a jury trial. And pleading no contest isn't admitting guilt, but you're essentially accepting the fact that the evidence against you is damning. So you're waiving your right to a trial. And during the hearing...

Judge Joyce Kimber asked Gavin what he believed he did wrong. And he replied, "I caused the death of Margaret Douglas." Now, according to the Wadsworth Post, under the Ohio Revised Code, a juvenile over the age of 16 charged with aggravated murder is to be tried as an adult. And prosecutor Thompson admitted, "I don't think it's a big secret. I'm asking for life without parole."

Also, since Gavin was under the age of 18, the death penalty was not an option. Gavin's sentencing hearing was scheduled for January 3rd, 2019. As they waited for that date, Gavin underwent psychological testing that would be performed by the Akron Psychodiagnostic Clinic, and his results would be read at his hearing.

Dr. Lynn Luna Jones, a forensic psychologist and chief psychologist at the Psychodiagnostic Clinic, revealed that on November 13, 2018, she met with Gavin at the Medina County Jail and conducted her initial interview.

According to court documents, Dr. Jones spent a total of 141 minutes speaking with Gavin and 39 minutes were spent on the psychological testing She discovered that he had a history of intrusive thoughts of violence that all started during his childhood and over the years those thoughts got more aggressive Ultimately, she said, he does not appear to be motivated to change his behavior and is criminally sophisticated and knowingly engages in crimes displaying a callous disregard for the harm he causes others

According to her report, she also discovered that he was taking Zoloft for depression and had started to self-medicate with alcohol, marijuana, LSD, and inhalants. She said that Gavin told her after the murder that he felt normal and didn't think about what he did, saying,

Her first diagnosis was conduct disorder, adolescent onset type, with limited prosocial emotion, severe. She explained, Ramsey displays a repetitive and persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights of other and major age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated.

That includes aggression to people, destruction of property, deceitfulness, theft, serious violations of rules, and a lack of concern about negative consequences of his actions. She also stated that Gavin lacks empathy for other people and does not express his emotions in a normal way. Dr. Jones' second diagnosis was a sexual sadism disorder. She said, "This means that the person becomes sexually aroused by either the physical or psychological suffering of others."

and has acted on those urges with a consenting person.

Now, we already knew this given he sexually assaulted Margaret's corpse, but it was also mentioned in court that about a year before Margaret's murder, Gavin had tried to get a job at a local funeral home to likely explore his disturbing interests. Margaret's great niece said, "Ramsay also had previous behavior consistent with cases of necrophilia. The year before my aunt's murder, he was seeking employment at a funeral home.

This is a common form of employment necrophiles seek as it gives them easy access to corpses. The fact that Ramsay's necrophilia escalated to the point where he killed someone in order to sexually assault their body

puts him in the same category as killers Gary Ridgway and Jeffrey Dahmer. This caliber of killer is not only one of the most demented and criminally dangerous, but it's also one of the rarest types of murderers. Disturbingly, it was also revealed in court that Gavin had actually met Margaret before.

He once even stopped by her house to ask if she needed help shoveling snow, cutting her grass, or raking leaves. There was no way she could have ever known that the same young man who had wanted to help her would ultimately be the person to end her life. Gavin had said throughout the investigation that he never set out to kill Margaret that night. He was just breaking into homes and her door happened to be unlocked. But that wasn't true.

Gavin knew exactly who lived in that house. He knew Margaret would likely be home as she was always home. And when he walked into her house that night, the prosecution believes he had every intention of doing exactly what he did. It was also revealed in court that Gavin enjoyed violent pornography and had a fantasy of raping people.

He enjoyed getting on Grindr with the purpose of having sex with men and then hurting them and robbing them. Now, the third diagnosis Gavin had was alcohol use disorder severe. She stated, "He has a problematic pattern of alcohol use, developing tolerance for alcohol, having cravings when he could not drink, spending a great deal of time involved in activities related to alcohol use, having difficulty controlling alcohol use, and continuing to drink despite school, relationship, and financial problems."

Gavin was also diagnosed with cannabis use disorder, stimulant use disorder, depressive disorder, and ADHD. Now his mom Christine took the stand in his defense. She told the court that Gavin had been in and out of trouble for the past 10 years. It was an ongoing problem in their home. Then in January of 2018, Gavin's principal called her and said that he seemed to be depressed. So from there they put him in therapy.

During that time, Gavin was prescribed Zoloft and as soon as he started taking his medication, Christine noticed a big change in her son.

She said he was more aggressive, hostile, and would go off on bizarre rants. So Christine said she took it upon herself to research Zoloft, and she found that it isn't recommended for depression in children under the age of 18. So from there, she got Gavin off of it. She would tell the court, quote, if I could change one thing, I would have never agreed to put my son on Zoloft, end quote.

So Christine believed that Zoloft was to blame for Gavin's actions, but the prosecution quickly shut this down. During cross-examination, Christine admitted that Gavin didn't start taking the medication until the end of January, but his journal entries, where he's talking about wanting to rape and murder people, had all been written prior to that. So clearly Zoloft wasn't to blame here.

In reality, Gavin was just innately evil, someone who had no issue with harming others. In fact, he took pleasure in it.

Margaret's family members also spoke during Gavin's sentencing and begged the judge to give him the maximum sentence. Margaret's great-niece, Patricia Leisure, stated, "I am the great-niece of Margaret Douglas, who was murdered by 17-year-old Gavin Ramsay. In 2018, Gavin Ramsay broke into my 98-year-old aunt's home in Wadsworth and killed her by manually strangling her."

This method of murder was chosen because he wanted to kill someone, not with a weapon of any kind, but with his own hands. After her murder, he disrobed and sexually assaulted her, taking pictures and videos of these acts. This included using her dead hand to pleasure himself. He was in her house for over two hours sexually abusing her body. Afterwards, he contorted her body to fit inside of a 1.5 by 2.5 foot closet.

Had he not been caught, I have no doubt he would continue to escalate his crimes and continue killing. Family members of 98-year-old Margaret Douglas pleaded with the judge to give her killer the maximum sentence. I feel the escalation of his crimes through the years show his inability to reform. He is not safe to be on the streets. He will hurt people again. He will kill people again.

She went on to say that after learning of the horrors her aunt went through, she had become paranoid. She often has to check under her bed and inside her closet before she goes to sleep at night. She said, "I still have nights where I suddenly wake up and have to put my gun next to me on the bed in order to feel safe. I still check the door and window locks three times every single night before I fall asleep.

If Gavin Ramsey is ever released, this fear will only increase. I cannot imagine going out into the world knowing that he is somewhere out there on the streets, especially when he is of an age where he is capable of causing incredible harm. Due to these fears, I will be speaking at every parole hearing. I will do everything in my power to keep this man behind bars, despite the personal ramifications I will face.

of having to relive the details of my aunt's murder every five years. Gavin Ramsey took my aunt Margaret's life from her in the most disturbing and evil way. And this new sentence may allow him to live the majority of his natural life free. This sentence is in no way justice for what he did to her.

Cindy Leisure, Margaret's niece, told the court about the moment they discovered her body inside the closet. She said, "I can't even describe in words the horror that was. He's not safe to be on the streets. He will hurt people again. He will kill people again." Here's what the prosecution had to say.

Because even though he stalked her and even though he murdered her and he videoed her and abused her and disrobed her and used jelly and stuffed the body in a closet and had time to search and ransack the house and find the wallet, he was always mindful of the time, Your Honor.

Medina County Prosecutor S. Forrest Thompson urged the judge to sentence Gavin to life without the possibility of parole. He said, "It was cold, it was calculated, and it was purposeful." By his own admission, if he hadn't been stopped, he would have killed again. But Gavin's defense pleaded for mercy. Gavin, as a 17-year-old boy, can engage in treatment,

He can engage in programming. Now, throughout the entire trial, Gavin sat emotionless. That is, until his mother took the stand. It's here where he began to cry. He's loyal to a fault. He's compassionate.

And this thing that we're sitting here discussing is not who my son is. I don't care how much you want to pluck out evil facts. That's not my son. Before he was sentenced, Gavin stood up and addressed the court, saying that he didn't know how to explain what happened. I looked this down because I knew I wouldn't know what to say on the spot. I don't know how to explain why all this happened. I don't think there really is an explanation to be given. I think about it all the time.

Thank you.

Ultimately, Gavin was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. In addition, he was sentenced to 10 years for aggravated burglary, 10 years for kidnapping, and 1 year for abuse of a corpse to run consecutively with each other. But as you would expect, Gavin would appeal his sentence in February 2019, saying that the court did not consider his age during the time of the crime.

However, on April 3, 2020, an appeals court upheld his life sentence. Then, one year later, in April 2021, Senate Bill 256 was introduced in Ohio that stated any juvenile convicted of murder or aggravated murder and sentenced to life in prison without parole would be eligible for parole after serving 18 to 30 years in prison. State Senator Nathan Manning said,

While SB 256 abolishes discretionary life without parole for juvenile offenders, those juveniles convicted of homicide must serve 25 years before their first parole hearing. In no way does this new law guarantee release for offenders, only an opportunity for parole if they can show that they are truly rehabilitated. The Supreme Court has declared the sentence of juvenile life without parole unconstitutional. Thus, SB 256 brings Ohio into line with federal law.

Under this new law, Gavin Ramsey could be released from prison when he's 42 years old. Of course, Margaret's family was upset with the news and said that they would continue to fight to keep Gavin in prison. Cindy Leisure said, We owe it to Margaret because no one should have to be murdered and go through the horror and torment she went through that night. But first tonight, the family of a 98-year-old woman who was murdered fear a change in Ohio law could pave the way for her killer to someday walk free.

When he was sentenced it was like, okay, we took a criminal off the roads. We took him out of society.

And now you're looking at, whoop, here we go. Now he may be back in society at some point in time. Family members say even at 98 years old, Margaret Douglas was full of life. But it was a life cut short in April 2018. This was just beyond belief.

Truly, if you would have read this in a book, you would have thought, wow, who made this up? Cindy Leisure was there when her husband found Douglas' body stuffed into a living room closet inside her Wadsworth home. Investigators say the widow was strangled, then abused by her 17-year-old neighbor, Gavin Ramsey. The teen pleaded no contest to the murder and in January 2019 was sentenced to life in prison without parole. The Leisures were there. What a relief.

It was just a relief to know that this person could not harm anybody else.

ever again. But a new Ohio law could change all that. Senate Bill 256 gets rid of life without parole for prisoners who were teens when they committed their crimes, making teens eligible for parole after serving anywhere from 18 to 30 years, depending on their crime. Former state Senator Peggy Lehner co-sponsored the bill. She says it's about restoring hope to teens locked up for life. I think that, you know, it gives a purpose to rehabilitation.

If you're never going to walk out of the doors of a prison, if you're never going to have a chance to go back to school or get a job or raise a family or any of those things, there's not a whole lot of point in doing rehabilitation. But Leisure believes her aunt's killer is beyond rehabilitation. This is not some poor little juvenile that did something, oh, and he got punished for life. You know, you deserve that.

You lost rights when you walked in her house uninvited. That's how I always look at it. The couple angered, Ramsey now has a path back into society. Well, it scares me because I think he'll kill again. He will find someone, you know, to kill again. Determined to keep fighting to change the law to block their aunt's killer from ever walking free again. We owe it to Margaret because no one should have to be murdered and go through this.

the horrid torment that she went through that night. - And obviously rehabilitation is the best case scenario. I truly believe that there are minors out there who have committed murder and are capable of changing, but I don't think Gavin Ramsey is one of them. The callousness and depravity of his crimes is horrifying. Murdering Margaret and sexually abusing her corpse wasn't a lapse in judgment.

I don't think it can be blamed on an underdeveloped brain. Gavin's actions before, during, and after the crime prove that he is an evil individual.

one who has no remorse, and one who takes great pleasure in harming others. And from what I've seen, I don't know if he's capable of change. Today, Gavin Ramsey is housed in an Ohio prison cell at Grafton Correctional Institution in Lorain County. And due to Senate Bill 256, he will be eligible for parole on March 4th, 2043.

Upon doing research, Gavin was listed on the website writeaprisoner.com, where he hopes to communicate with people on the outside. In his bio that was created on January 7th, 2024, he wrote, "'Hey there, I'll keep it short and sweet, and if I spark your curiosity, you're more than welcome to write me. I'm looking for people who are interested in spirit, soul, and body growth and development. I enjoy conversations that delve far beneath the surface, and I love to laugh and see people smile as well."

I believe everybody has something beautiful to contribute to the people and places around them, but it takes the right person to unearth so great a gem. Perhaps I'm that person for you. Perhaps you're that person for me. I enjoy writing music and poetry. I play sports and have a high regard for my health and fitness. I also crochet, which is more therapeutic than I had originally thought, but only in prison would I learn such a craft, lol.

I'm in college and I'm always searching for proactive ways to mature as an individual, both for myself and for those around me. I believe if you want to see a difference, you have to be the difference. Thus, I invite you to come be a difference with me. I look forward to hearing from you. I prefer to communicate via the GTL messaging app. It's just like texting.

Family members of Margaret Douglas remember her, saying that she was a beautiful soul and a great woman. She was an inspiration to others, and despite her age of 98, she still had a zest for life and loved to be independent. As we reflected throughout this episode, Margaret was nearly 100 years old. She had lived her entire life happy and fulfilled.

only for it to be taken from her in the most violent way imaginable. It's a scary world out there, and people like Margaret were trusting of their neighbors. She could have never known that the boy down the street, who once asked to mow her lawn, would one day brutally murder her. But that's the reality of the world we live in. Luckily, Gavin Ramsey was caught after his first murder.

And he himself admitted that he likely would have killed again if his disgusting crimes hadn't been discovered, that he will never get the chance.

Hey, everybody. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Murder in America. That story is absolutely brutal. It's horrific. I really hope that Gavin stays in prison for life. But as we've seen so many times, whether we're talking about murderers or convictions for sex offenders, the American justice system is very, very flawed. And

And I don't know, who knows? Maybe he will get out. I mean, it's a scary concept, but you just, you never know. Anyways, if you guys want more bonus content, you enjoy Murder in America, you can't get enough, definitely sign up for our Patreon. So we just completely revamped the Patreon. We have some really, really high quality, really long, really great episodes coming on there bonus-wise.

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